I18N/IBus/Meetings/2009-05-27

2009-05-27 0500 UTC on #fedora-i18n at Freenode

Agenda

• previous meeting I18N/IBus/Meetings/2009-05-20
  • Test_Days:IBus
• f10 update status
• xkb/qemu/rdesktop
• icon proposal
• f12 schedule

Next meeting I18N/Input/Meetings/2009-06-03

bug list

Summary

• ibus f10 update still pending ibus-table-* builds (phuang and cchance will work on it)
• discussion about evdev like handling of keycodes for working around IME modes that assume a specific layout (typically qwerty) and potential problem (phuang will investigate more)
• new icon or new icon UI - whether we can have IME disabled icon rather than no info?
• dev schedule pushed forward to next meeting
• new im-chooser pushed to f11 dropping applet checkbox
• suggestion to rename this meeting to "Fedora IM meeting"

Action Items

• phuang and cchance to complete building ibus-table* for f10 update and push to testing

Log

juhp_	ah time for ibus meeting!	May 27 15:08
juhp_	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/IBus/Meetings/2009-05-27	May 27 15:09
phuang_	hi	May 27 15:12
juhp_	hi phuang_	May 27 15:12
dychen_	hi juhp	May 27 15:12
Kaio1	juhp fixed candidate order prob	May 27 15:13
---Kaio1 is now known as Kaio		May 27 15:13
paragan	hi	May 27 15:13
Kaio	hi	May 27 15:13
juhp_	ping dychen_	May 27 15:15
dychen_	hi juhp	May 27 15:15
dychen_	hi juhp_	May 27 15:15
tagoh3	hi	May 27 15:15
juhp_	phuang_, Kaio: how is f10 update status btw?	May 27 15:15
juhp_	hi tagoh3	May 27 15:15
Kaio	juhp need to get ibus 1.1 into stable	May 27 15:16
Kaio	still waiting	May 27 15:16
Kaio	submitted request	May 27 15:16
juhp_	Kaio: ?	May 27 15:16
juhp_	which package?	May 27 15:16
phuang_	The update problem of ibus-qt is not fixed.	May 27 15:17
phuang_	Can I push it to stable with it?	May 27 15:17
juhp_	phuang_: adding obsoletes?	May 27 15:17
juhp_	with ?	May 27 15:17
juhp_	phuang_: I think it is not good	May 27 15:17
phuang_	It already has it.	May 27 15:17
juhp_	phuang_: I forgot what is the update problem?	May 27 15:18
phuang_	the ibus-1.1.x does not has ibus-qt anymore	May 27 15:18
juhp_	yes	May 27 15:19
juhp_	and it obsoletes it, right?	May 27 15:19
phuang_	yeah	May 27 15:19
juhp_	is what is left there? :)	May 27 15:19
juhp_	so what is *	May 27 15:19
phuang_	obsolete does not fix this problem	May 27 15:19
tagoh3	what happens then?	May 27 15:20
phuang_	some one said ibus need add provide for ibus-qt	May 27 15:20
juhp_	hmm	May 27 15:20
juhp_	I don't think it should	May 27 15:20
tagoh3	I think if it provides that feature	May 27 15:20
juhp_	since it doesn't	May 27 15:20
juhp_	and which IMEs missing?	May 27 15:20
tagoh3	actually it doesn't. so I don't think it's necessary	May 27 15:21
juhp_	just ibus-table?	May 27 15:21
tagoh3	phuang_: does someone say it still fails or just pointing out that provides thing?	May 27 15:22
phuang_	Maybe we could submit a new updates again. it includes all ibus related packages. (include ibus-table-*)	May 27 15:22
juhp_	yeah or edit	May 27 15:22
phuang_	https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F10/FEDORA-2009-4031	May 27 15:22
juhp_	thanks	May 27 15:22
phuang_	actually, in this update, ibus already has Obsoletes ibus-qt	May 27 15:23
juhp_	right	May 27 15:23
juhp_	Kaio: which is your ibus-table build?	May 27 15:23
phuang_	'Obsoletes: ibus-qt < 1.1.0'	May 27 15:23
phuang_	Is it ok?	May 27 15:23
juhp_	I think so	May 27 15:23
Kaio	juhp_: ?	May 27 15:24
phuang_	So I don't why mschwendt will meet this problem	May 27 15:24
tagoh3	I suppose mixing multiple issues up there	May 27 15:24
phuang_	maybe	May 27 15:25
tagoh3	who exactly is talking about ibus-qt? it looks like just talking about ibus-table-chinese though	May 27 15:25
tagoh3	I may be missing something	May 27 15:26
juhp_	tagoh3: ah yeah	May 27 15:26
phuang_	oh	May 27 15:26
phuang_	juhp_, I think you meet ibus-qt updating problem before.	May 27 15:27
juhp_	phuang_: multilib?	May 27 15:28
juhp_	ok I will test after then	May 27 15:28
juhp_	Kaio: ??	May 27 15:28
juhp_	phuang_: so we're just waiting for ibus-table-*	May 27 15:29
phuang_	I will re submit a new updates for all ibut packages	May 27 15:29
phuang_	include ibus-table-*	May 27 15:29
juhp_	phuang_: I think you can edit maybe and resubmit too, no?	May 27 15:29
juhp_	are they built?	May 27 15:29
juhp_	phuang_: cool	May 27 15:29
Kaio	juhp_: what should I do on this side?	May 27 15:29
juhp_	let's put them all in testing and we can get more feedback	May 27 15:29
juhp_	Kaio: what has been built?	May 27 15:30
juhp_	or not	May 27 15:30
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juhp_	Kaio: remember you already opened a ticket last week	May 27 15:30
Kaio	all couldnt be built because of Requires:	May 27 15:30
juhp_	http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=102949	May 27 15:31
Kaio	'Requires: ibus >= 1.1.0'	May 27 15:31
juhp_	Kaio: requires?	May 27 15:31
Kaio	BuildRequires	May 27 15:31
juhp_	Kaio: when did you try?	May 27 15:31
Kaio	last week	May 27 15:31
Kaio	I'll do it again after meeting	May 27 15:32
Kaio	building new ibus-table on rawhide now	May 27 15:32
Kaio	might need to build a newer ibus-table that	May 27 15:32
Kaio	which fixed candidate order	May 27 15:33
juhp_	Kaio: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=99671	May 27 15:33
juhp_	Kaio: heh	May 27 15:33
juhp_	Kaio: cool	May 27 15:33
phuang_	juhp, If ibus-table-* are almost done, I could push ibus-1.1.0 to stable	May 27 15:33
juhp_	thanks	May 27 15:33
Kaio	just made a 20090527 tarball	May 27 15:33
juhp_	and what about ibus-table-chinese?	May 27 15:33
phuang_	juhp_, ok?	May 27 15:33
juhp_	ibus-table obsoletes it?	May 27 15:33
Kaio	you want me to 'meta' it?	May 27 15:33
juhp_	Kaio: well something has to get rid of it, right?	May 27 15:34
phuang_	juhp, yeah. ibus-table, or ibus-table-* could add obsoletes or provides	May 27 15:34
juhp_	phuang_: or do you want to take care of it?	May 27 15:34
Kaio	that i-b-chinese has zhengma, afaik?	May 27 15:34
Kaio	and wubi98?	May 27 15:34
phuang_	what need take care of ?	May 27 15:34
juhp_	Kaio, phuang_: you two please work it out - it should not take long	May 27 15:34
Kaio	k	May 27 15:34
phuang_	ok	May 27 15:35
juhp_	sooner than later would be good :)	May 27 15:35
juhp_	thanks!	May 27 15:35
Kaio	new ibus-table on rawhide just done	May 27 15:36
phuang_	I will remove ibus-table from the update. and let Kaio to submit alll ibus-table packages together. ?	May 27 15:36
phuang_	ok?	May 27 15:36
juhp_	hmm	May 27 15:36
juhp_	I dunno	May 27 15:36
juhp_	if we can do ibus-table quickly it would be better	May 27 15:36
juhp_	phuang_: old ibus-table won't work right?	May 27 15:37
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Kaio	phuang_: I will get new ibus-table ready for f10 in 15 mins, but ibus-table-* will need to be done right after that	May 27 15:37
phuang_	can not works with new ibus	May 27 15:37
juhp_	Kaio: if you rebuild you will have to request override tagging again	May 27 15:37
juhp_	right	May 27 15:37
Kaio	juhp :\	May 27 15:37
phuang_	Kaio, need ask releng to help you	May 27 15:37
Kaio	phuang_: okay	May 27 15:37
juhp_	phuang_: current build was already tagged	May 27 15:38
juhp_	...	May 27 15:38
juhp_	but needs obsoletes	May 27 15:38
phuang_	juhp, yeah	May 27 15:38
*Kaio looks for warren :P		May 27 15:38
juhp_	Kaio: please test upgrade on f10 before requesting tagging	May 27 15:38
Kaio	juhp okay	May 27 15:38
juhp_	thanks	May 27 15:38
Kaio	np	May 27 15:38
juhp_	# xkb/qemu/rdesktop	May 27 15:39
juhp_	phuang_: I noticed you looked at various keymap stuff recently	May 27 15:39
juhp_	what did you find?	May 27 15:40
phuang_	yeah	May 27 15:40
phuang_	I have a new idea to handle xkb problem	May 27 15:41
juhp_	aha	May 27 15:41
phuang_	It is to let ibus to process scan code, instead of keysym	May 27 15:41
phuang_	So ibus will convert scan code to keysym with different keyboard layout	May 27 15:42
phuang_	like jp layout for anthy	May 27 15:42
phuang_	en-us layout for pinyin, chewing, and etc	May 27 15:42
tagoh3	phuang_: you mean ibus will has a conversion table instead of relying on X?	May 27 15:42
phuang_	ime could specify the layout in description file (.xml)	May 27 15:42
phuang_	yeah	May 27 15:43
tagoh3	hmm	May 27 15:43
phuang_	I found the new X server use evdev driver for inputting	May 27 15:43
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tagoh3	sorry, what's the xkb problem again?	May 27 15:44
phuang_	it reads events from /dev/input/*	May 27 15:44
juhp_	ah right	May 27 15:44
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phuang_	Old problem is	May 27 15:44
phuang_	ibus uses keysym, ime process keysyms	May 27 15:44
juhp_	tagoh3: it is for IME that depend on layout geometry	May 27 15:44
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juhp_	tagoh3: eg if you want to input kana with non-qwerty layout	May 27 15:45
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juhp_	or non-qwerty kbd rather	May 27 15:45
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phuang_	if users use ge layout, some engines (like chewing or anthy) can not works well	May 27 15:45
juhp_	right	May 27 15:45
juhp_	phuang_: I think anthy is only affected for kana mode	May 27 15:45
juhp_	not romaji	May 27 15:46
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juhp_	so it is bit complex	May 27 15:46
juhp_	it has to be modal	May 27 15:46
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tagoh3	there should be various keyboard in the world. do you want to have some dozens of combinations among keyboards and languages?	May 27 15:46
phuang_	I found Linux kernel input driver will get the same scan code from different keyboards.	May 27 15:47
phuang_	But I am not sure. Need more test.	May 27 15:47
tagoh3	you also need to take care of the bridge between ibus and X too	May 27 15:47
phuang_	btw, can I get some different keyboards?	May 27 15:47
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phuang_	bridge?	May 27 15:47
dychen_	phuang_: conversion, tagoh3 means.	May 27 15:48
tagoh3	you need to send the key event back to the applications	May 27 15:48
phuang_	ibus almost do not need send key events back	May 27 15:49
tagoh3	I thought the key code on X and from kernel is a bit different.	May 27 15:49
phuang_	it just filters some events out, or ignore some key events	May 27 15:49
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phuang_	yeah. X scan code - 8 == kernel scan code, (or may be -7, I forgot)	May 27 15:50
phuang_	we could ref /usr/include/linux/input.h	May 27 15:50
tagoh3	and thought kernel can't deal with some modifier keys	May 27 15:51
phuang_	yeah	May 27 15:51
phuang_	we keep the state in XKeyEvent	May 27 15:51
phuang_	Just change keyval to scancode	May 27 15:52
juhp_	aha	May 27 15:52
tagoh3	what happens if one just taps or press a modifier key only?	May 27 15:52
phuang_	a key event will be sent to ibus with current states	May 27 15:53
tagoh3	in that case, no state changed but keyval should has one for the modifier key though	May 27 15:53
phuang_	?	May 27 15:54
tagoh3	try xev with pressing Alt say. you don't see state = 0 with KeyPress and keycode and keysym has Alt_L or Alt_R. and state is changed with KeyRelease.	May 27 15:55
tagoh3	s/don't/do/	May 27 15:55
juhp_	but guess evdev is already handling that?	May 27 15:55
tagoh3	guess there may be an emmulation for the modifier keys. dunno.	May 27 15:57
juhp_	aha	May 27 15:57
phuang_	KeyRelease event, serial 30, synthetic NO, window 0x5a00001,	May 27 15:57
phuang_	root 0xf6, subw 0x0, time 185962373, (546,97), root:(566,228),	May 27 15:57
phuang_	state 0x8, keycode 64 (keysym 0xffe9, Alt_L), same_screen YES,	May 27 15:57
phuang_	XLookupString gives 0 bytes:	May 27 15:57
phuang_	XFilterEvent returns: False	May 27 15:57
tagoh3	yes.	May 27 15:58
phuang_	tagoh3, in current ibus, gtk im module will send Alt_L with state 0x8	May 27 15:58
juhp_	phuang_: so have you tried to test it a bit?	May 27 15:58
tagoh3	I mean you can't detect the state change in KeyPress.	May 27 15:58
phuang_	tagoh3, in the new design, it will send keycode 64 with state 0x8	May 27 15:58
phuang_	just use keycode replaces keysym	May 27 15:59
tagoh3	and if that modifier key is something like X specific, how do you convert it between scancode and X keycode?	May 27 15:59
phuang_	gtk im module still gets keycode and state from XKeyEvent. modifier is handled by X	May 27 16:00
phuang_	or from GdkEventKey	May 27 16:00
phuang_	guint16 hardware_keycode in GdkEventKey	May 27 16:01
phuang_	We don't get events from /dev/input/* directly	May 27 16:01
phuang_	In the new idea, we don't need XLookupKeysym anymore	May 27 16:02
phuang_	it is called in gdk	May 27 16:02
tagoh3	hm, I may need to see the whole picture of this idea.	May 27 16:02
phuang_	tagoh3, ok. i will create a chart for it.	May 27 16:03
tagoh3	ah, one concern - so in new design, ibus will ignore some setting with xmodmap say?	May 27 16:03
phuang_	the modifiers are handled by X	May 27 16:04
phuang_	ibus does not care about it	May 27 16:04
tagoh3	it's not only for modfiers though	May 27 16:04
phuang_	?	May 27 16:04
tagoh3	you can assign any symbols to any keycode with xmodmap	May 27 16:05
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phuang_	I think it is for setting modifier keys	May 27 16:06
tagoh3	it affects to the usual keymaps too	May 27 16:07
juhp	well I think xmodmap is just an (old) cli to current xkb	May 27 16:07
phuang_	When ibus is enabled (by Ctrl+space), ibus will be responsible for converting scancode to keysym	May 27 16:08
phuang_	when ibus is off, ibus will ignore all key events, clients will use xkb as before	May 27 16:08
phuang_	xmodmap just effects xkb configure	May 27 16:09
juhp	phuang_: maybe only need to do it for those IME/modes that need it	May 27 16:09
phuang_	So it only effect when ibus is off	May 27 16:09
tagoh3	ignore? how does ibus detect if one press the hot key then?	May 27 16:09
juhp	phuang_: on?	May 27 16:09
phuang_	tagoh3, It is one exception	May 27 16:10
tagoh3	?	May 27 16:10
phuang_	I mean when ibus is off, ibus could process keysym from clients not keycode	May 27 16:11
phuang_	or	May 27 16:11
phuang_	when ibus is off, ibus use default keyboard layout to convert keycode to keysym	May 27 16:11
phuang_	like we use en-us as default layout	May 27 16:11
phuang_	or make it configurable	May 27 16:11
phuang_	Or Like windows,	May 27 16:12
tagoh3	for instance, one may wants to set Super_R to the hot key with pc101 which doesn't really have Super_R. so one needs to modify keymap with xmodmap. if ibus doesn't care of that change, how does ibus works with it?	May 27 16:12
phuang_	users could add some keyboards	May 27 16:12
phuang_	ibus uses the active keyboard's layout for converting	May 27 16:13
phuang_	tagoh3, It is not a normal case	May 27 16:13
tagoh3	this isn't a layout issue but mapping issue though. and my understanding is ibus will have that mapping, no?	May 27 16:13
phuang_	tagoh3, we will suggest use different one	May 27 16:13
phuang_	yeah. he could modify keymap files in ibus	May 27 16:14
phuang_	for map scancode to different keysym	May 27 16:14
phuang_	s/for/to/	May 27 16:14
phuang_	if he wants customize the default keyboard layouts.	May 27 16:15
tagoh3	phuang_: right, this isn't a normal case. but non CJK people relies on xkb really. and since ibus needs to deal with it to support the configurable hot keys, it affects regardless of ibus is on or off.	May 27 16:15
tagoh3	as long as one installs ibus	May 27 16:15
phuang_	http://github.com/phuang/ibus/tree/59a36db15d09f4ec948e9d9f87228a21f41ef3fa/data/keymaps	May 27 16:16
phuang_	there are some keyboard layouts	May 27 16:16
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phuang_	he could modify them	May 27 16:17
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phuang_	or we could allow user override them in $HOME folder	May 27 16:17
tagoh3	I'm afraid I think having own keyboard layout isn't acceptable for non-CJK users. why don't you get involved and improve XKB or xklavier or so?	May 27 16:18
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phuang_	why non-CJK users will concern about it?	May 27 16:19
tagoh3	changes required for usual keyboard layout and ibus keyboard layout is annoying. and easily confused and hard to keep consistency if one doesn't pay more attentions there.	May 27 16:20
juhp	I understand tagoh3's concerns and certainly scim didn't get this right or at least didn't solve this problem	May 27 16:21
tagoh3	for interface-wise, it doesn't make any difference what scim does. which caused a lot of confusion	May 27 16:22
juhp	but we definitely need some mechanism for IMEs that assume a certain layout	May 27 16:22
juhp	so I mean we need to think this through very carefully	May 27 16:22
juhp	there must be a right way to do it	May 27 16:23
phuang_	I really want to know how windows handle it	May 27 16:23
phuang_	juhp, when can i get a ja or ko keyboard?	May 27 16:24
juhp	phuang_: you didn't borrow from QE?	May 27 16:24
phuang_	juhp, I ask QE, they don't know ?	May 27 16:24
juhp	heh	May 27 16:24
juhp	then please follow up to the email ;)	May 27 16:24
phuang_	yeah. They has a ja keyboard, but it is someone's notebook's keyboard	May 27 16:25
juhp	ah lol	May 27 16:25
juhp	hmm	May 27 16:25
juhp	I assumed from llim_ that there were kbds in your office	May 27 16:25
juhp	anyway let's follow up on that	May 27 16:26
phuang_	thanks	May 27 16:26
juhp	phuang_: no kr ?	May 27 16:26
phuang_	no	May 27 16:26
juhp	hmm	May 27 16:26
juhp	running late	May 27 16:29
juhp	# icon proposal	May 27 16:29
juhp	how about the icon proposal?	May 27 16:29
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juhp	I am still thinking though I would like to use "text" icons for ibus applet	May 27 16:30
tagoh3	how about asking artTeam in Fedora?	May 27 16:31
juhp	suppose it could even be dynamic svg or something	May 27 16:31
juhp	tagoh3: well we did through bz	May 27 16:31
tagoh3	aha	May 27 16:31
tagoh3	what did they say?	May 27 16:31
juhp	I was circumventing that since they only posted designs internally on a wiki...	May 27 16:32
juhp	guess just for convenience more than secrecy...	May 27 16:32
juhp	tagoh3: the bug is linked in the agenda...	May 27 16:32
juhp	the designs are ok but not perfect IMHO	May 27 16:33
tagoh3	oops, sorry	May 27 16:33
juhp	np	May 27 16:33
juhp	I should have pasted it here	May 27 16:33
juhp	forgot myself ;)	May 27 16:33
juhp	phuang_: what do you feel about modifying the icon UI?	May 27 16:34
juhp	phuang_: I think it would be nice to know the current IME when ibus is off anyway	May 27 16:34
juhp	I don't like the current scim UI	May 27 16:34
juhp	too much	May 27 16:35
juhp	that is in ibus I mean	May 27 16:35
juhp	if/when I have time meaning to hack a bit on it...	May 27 16:35
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juhp	hmm dunno if we lost phuang_	May 27 16:35
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phuang_	I think icon for ibus is ok. but for ime, the text in icons is too small	May 27 16:36
Kaio1	phuang_: agree	May 27 16:36
juhp	phuang_: that was not my question :)	May 27 16:36
juhp	UI :)	May 27 16:36
*Kaio1 thinks the icons themselves even too small		May 27 16:36
phuang_	icon UI?	May 27 16:36
juhp	well size is not the issue...	May 27 16:37
juhp	phuang_: <juhp> I am still thinking though I would like to use "text" icons for ibus applet	May 27 16:37
juhp	phuang_: and what about off state?	May 27 16:37
phuang_	what's text icons	May 27 16:37
juhp	I don't think we need an off icon at all	May 27 16:37
phuang_	for off state, I need do some investigation	May 27 16:37
juhp	phuang_: or just red cross on top for off?	May 27 16:38
phuang_	Actually, windows does not do it	May 27 16:38
juhp	there lots of possibilities	May 27 16:38
juhp	hmm	May 27 16:38
juhp	well my vote goes for anything but off-icon ;)	May 27 16:38
phuang_	Currently, when ibus is off, the input context does not have a related ime	May 27 16:38
juhp	we don't have to copy windows	May 27 16:38
juhp	phuang_: but hotkey does	May 27 16:39
phuang_	the ime instance will be created, when the user press Ctrl+Space in first time	May 27 16:39
phuang_	yeah	May 27 16:39
juhp	hmm	May 27 16:39
juhp	I see	May 27 16:39
juhp	hmmm	May 27 16:39
juhp	so no reliable way to know you mean?	May 27 16:39
juhp	phuang_: it can't be cached say?	May 27 16:40
phuang_	need some investigation,	May 27 16:40
juhp	ok	May 27 16:40
phuang_	btw the default ime will be changed. and some time, ibus could have no imes	May 27 16:41
juhp	well I agree UI would be a bit strange if it shows the wrong IME too	May 27 16:41
juhp	yeah	May 27 16:41
juhp	so maybe use a dummy (off) icon when not sure perhaps	May 27 16:41
juhp	dunno if it is a limitation of Linux IM	May 27 16:42
juhp	or X rather	May 27 16:42
phuang_	I dunno :)	May 27 16:42
juhp	ok	May 27 16:42
juhp	anyway I wanted to ask about it... :)	May 27 16:43
juhp	let's move the last agenda item to next week since we are well over time	May 27 16:43
phuang_	ok	May 27 16:44
juhp	phuang_: f11 ibus looking ok currently?	May 27 16:44
phuang_	juhp, yeah :)	May 27 16:44
juhp	also we should do a bug list review soon since it has grown a bit after the test day	May 27 16:44
juhp	cool	May 27 16:44
juhp	anyone have anything else?	May 27 16:44
tagoh3	one thing from me..	May 27 16:45
tagoh3	just FYI - finally pushed new im-chooser for devel and F-11 without the status icon checkbox. sorry for inconvenience.	May 27 16:45
-->yshao (n=yshao@60.247.97.97) has joined #fedora-i18n		May 27 16:47
tagoh3	for topic relates to IM, but anyway.	May 27 16:47
juhp	tagoh3: yeah saw that - looks good on my box :) thanks	May 27 16:48
juhp	we could also name this meeting "Fedora IM meeting"	May 27 16:49
phuang_	right	May 27 16:49
tagoh3	sounds good :)	May 27 16:49
juhp	okay	May 27 16:50
<--juhp_ has quit ("Ex-Chat")		May 27 16:50
juhp	okay let's close the meeting then	May 27 16:54
juhp	thanks very much everyone for participating	May 27 16:54
phuang_	thanks	May 27 16:54
Kaio1	thx	May 27 16:55

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