Archive:EPEL/Meetings/20070311

Meeting 20070311

Attending

• dgilmore
• mmcgrath (first part only)
• nirik
• quaid
• thl

Summary

• getting RHEL5 on the builders is a priority now as we should use it before we actually tell contributors to "really start now"; dgilmore and mmcgrath will look into this; CentOS5 beta should hopefully be out soon for testing by users, too.

• thl reworked the schedule a bit to reflect the current status a bit better

• a shortcut for people wanting to branch lots of packages for EPEL might be helpful. Is anybody interested in writing two scripts? Maybe something like this:

• a short script that parses owners.list for all your packages by e-mail and writes the list out on a single line (like "random@host.somewhere foo bar foobar")

• another script then can be run on the branching machine that takes a string like "EL-4,EL-5 random@host.somewhere foo bar foobar" and then creates owners.epel.list entries for those packages (if they don't exists already; needs to get the description from owners.list) and creates the branches (the cvs admins would need to fill this part)

Then we could use a wiki page and a branch method similar to the old Extras method for the EPEL start phase

• quaid worked on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/CommunicationPlan ; "what I'm hoping is ... anyone here who knows something that should be in there, just pile it into the page if we get enough info, we'll spin off a stand-alone page for that topic; otherwise it can be covered in short there."

• we'll probably remove all those "PLEASE READ: This is currently a being worked on and not yet finished -- consider it a draft and as not yet official" warning from the wiki at end of march. Guys, please review (and fix) what is written there!

• some discussion about steering issues that got discussed on the list this week; seems people would like to prefer to stick to the current scheme as long as problems that need to be solved can get solved with an consensus on the list and in the meetings

• discuss the meeting time on the list again (discussion kicked off already)

Note: there are some takes on the schedule at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Schedule that could need some help. Anybody for example interested in setting up a epel-release package, that people can install by "rpm -ivh foo.src.rpm" and contains key and repo files for EPEL so it is automatically used by up2date in RHEL 4, yum in RHEL 5 and yum on CentOS 4 + 5?

Full log

00:00              * | thl looks around
00:00 <         thl> | according to my clock it's EPEL meeting time
00:00              * | quaid kicks daylight savings in the shins
00:00 <         thl> | ping dgilmore mmcgrath
00:00 <    mmcgrath> | thl: pong
00:00 <         thl> | hah
00:01 <         thl> | quaid, yeah, we didn't change yet
00:01 <    mmcgrath> | we had dst last night so it may be odd for people to get in.
00:01 <         thl> | we'll change in two weeks from now
00:01 <         thl> | I'm fine moing the meeting time so the effective meeting time stay the same
00:01              * | nirik is here, but also sick and on the phone. ;)_
00:01            --> | jmbuser (John Babich)  has joined #fedora-meeting
00:01              * | thl has some food in the oven that will be read in 15 minutes
00:01 <    mmcgrath> | I've got an alarm clock that changes automatically but its at least 7 years old. I woner what will happen this year.
00:03              * | thl wonder if we should start the meeting or wait another hour
00:03 <    mmcgrath> | hmm
00:03 <     EvilBob> | waiting and hour would be bad
00:04              * | thl wonders if waiting an hour would be the wrong direction
00:04 <         thl> | stupid dst changes
00:04 <     jmbuser> | EvilBob: so you want to wait an hour? :-)
00:05 <     EvilBob> | thl: FDSCo is waiting for the room
00:05 <         thl> | EvilBob, k, noted, thx :)
00:05 <         thl> | EvilBob, is that a regular meeting? then add it to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel ;-)
00:06 <         thl> | well, then let's start
00:06 <    dgilmore> | pong
00:06 <         thl> | I updated the schedule a bit
00:06 <         thl> | hi dgilmore
00:06 <         thl> | the two most important things afaics are:
00:06 <         thl> | get RHEL5 onto the builders
00:07 <         thl> | so people can actually start
00:07 <         thl> | and find some kind oft shortbut for branching for people that have a lot of pacakges
00:07 <         thl> | mmcgrath, quaid, do you have access to RHEL5 already?
00:07 <         thl> | could you get it onto the builders?
00:07 <         thl> | dgilmore, seems quite busy already afaics
00:08 <    mmcgrath> | thl: Possibly, I'm waiting to hear back from the cusotmer service people.
00:08 <    dgilmore> | thl: there is supposed to be a way using up2date to pull all teh packages  i need to work it out.
00:08 <    mmcgrath> | Just so the people here know for the future, our licenses have to go through Red Hat's customer service.
00:08 <       quaid> | mmcgrath has much better theoretical chance than I do
00:08              * | dgilmore has not used up2date in many years
00:09 <    mmcgrath> | and be extra careful about saying you need RHEL entitlements for Fedora not "Fedora Entitlements" Someone about killed me.
00:09 <       nirik> | thl: is the centos 5 beta out yet? last time I checked it was not...
00:09              * | dgilmore really wants to just be able to rsync it
00:09 <    dgilmore> | nirik: soon
00:09 <         thl> | nirik, not yet; it was supposed to be out some days ago but then they delayed it "to fix some more bugs"
00:09 <       quaid> | mmcgrath: are you forming an internal group through CS for all Fedora machines?
00:09 <       nirik> | also, I think we should require all EL-4 branches to also branch EL-5... we don't want to drop packages in upgrade, do we?
00:09 <         thl> | mmcgrath, for now it would be enough to get RHEL5
00:09 <         thl> | building against the beta1 sucks
00:10 <         thl> | I don't want to tell people to actually start before we have RHEL5 in the buildroots
00:10 <    mmcgrath> | quaid: We actually have 150 RHEL licenses (I didn't realize that)
00:10 <         thl> | nirik, well, there are some people that moved to core (and thus to RHEL5); we don#t want branches for those
00:10 <       nirik> | well, it's also hard to start when you don't have any way of testing it (at least I prefer to be able to test builds on a new release)
00:10 <    dgilmore> | mmcgrath: i noticed that the other day
00:11 <    mmcgrath> | I'm still trying to get in touch with the right people to see what we can do with them and how to renew, they expire in May currently.
00:11 <         thl> | nirik, I think it's okay to build blindly atm
00:11 <         thl> | as stuff goes into a testing branch
00:11 <    dgilmore> | RHEL 5 rhgb is ugly
00:11 <         thl> | and hopefully CentOS5 will be out soon
00:11 <       quaid> | mmcgrath: I recently set up a new group for the online services, I'll find the details and fwd. to you
00:11 <    mmcgrath> | quaid: danke
00:11 <    dgilmore> | thl: hopefully before the end of march
00:12 <         thl> | dgilmore, I hope so
00:12              * | dgilmore installed beta2 as a kvm guest last night
00:12 <         thl> | so, who takes over the RHEL5 on the builders task? mmcgrath?
00:12 <    dgilmore> | thl: im fine with doing it
00:12 <         thl> | is it possible to get RHEL5 until next week?
00:13 <    mmcgrath> | I'll get the content (rpms) then dgilmore or I will set up the configs.
00:13 <         thl> | dgilmore, k, also fine for me :)
00:13 <    dgilmore> | i just need to work out the best way to do so and maintain  them
00:13 <    mmcgrath> | I wonder if we have a TAM or something :-D
00:13 <         thl> | dgilmore, mmcgrath, well, is there any chance to get RHEL5 stuff onto the builders by next week?
00:13 <         thl> | s/by/during/
00:14            <-- | FrancescoUgolini has quit ("Quit")
00:14              * | thl looks after his food in the oven
00:14 <    dgilmore> | thl: :)  it is doable in one way or another
00:15 <    mmcgrath> | thl: I think that should be doable, I've been having trouble finding the right email address to contact.
00:15 <         thl> | dgilmore, mmcgrath that would be great; thx for your help
00:16              * | thl will leave soon for a while to eat the stuff that cooking
00:16              * | mmcgrath too might have a small interuption this morning
00:17 <         thl> | sorry for the trouble
00:17 <    mmcgrath> | and there it is, br
00:17 <    mmcgrath> | b
00:17 <         thl> | the schedule is at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Schedule
00:17 <         thl> | maybe you guys want to talk about other things?
00:17 <         thl> | or we stop and meet again next week
00:18 <         thl> | what about the steering issues thimm brought up?
00:18 <         thl> | should we discuss them now?
00:18 <    dgilmore> | there are alot of people not here
00:18              * | thl now afk for a while; sorry
00:18 <    dgilmore> | quaid: how goes your work?
00:19 <       quaid> | dgilmore: heh, which?  for the most part, pretty good
00:19 <    dgilmore> | quaid: :)  cool anything to report in regards to EPEL
00:20 <       quaid> | ah, you mean, on this topic :)
00:21 <       quaid> | I haven't found the right people to propose subscriptions for EPEL maintainers
00:21 <    dgilmore> | cool
00:21 <       nirik> | dgilmore: I see there isn't a epel el5 version in bugzilla... should there be along with el4? or not until we get buildroots, etc spun up and happy?
00:21 <       quaid> | I may want to coordinate with mmcgrath and have those added as aspecial subs to the Fedora group
00:22 <    dgilmore> | nirik: i asked for it when it was setup and he didint do it
00:22 <       nirik> | bummer
00:22 <    dgilmore> | i figured ill bug him when RHEL 5 is released as final
00:22              * | quaid had several Firefox crashes while writing up CommunicationPlan, but there is at least a start there now
00:22 <    dgilmore> | quaid: possibly
00:23 <       quaid> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/CommunicationPlan
00:23 <       quaid> | what I'm hoping is ...
00:23 <       quaid> | anyone here who knows something that should be in there, just pile it into the page
00:23 <       quaid> | if we get enough info, we'll spin off a stand-alone page for that topic;
00:24 <       quaid> | otherwise it can be covered in short there.
00:24 <    dgilmore> | sounds good
00:24              * | thl back at the keyboard, with some food besides him
00:25              * | thl will take a closer look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/CommunicationPlan later
00:25 <       quaid> | thl's food is on the keyboard!
00:26 <         thl> | btw, when do we plan to remove all those "PLEASE READ: This is currently a being worked on and not yet finished -- consider it a draft and as not yet official" warning from the wiki?
00:26 <    dgilmore> | thl: what do you have to eat?
00:26 <       nirik> | I would say we could do that when we offically announce and move things from testing to a main repo?
00:27 <       quaid> | personally, I need to spend a few hours going over the language clarity, etc., before I want to remove draft warnings :)
00:27 <       quaid> | but I'm always wanting to do that, so don't let that hold us back
00:28 <         thl> | dgilmore, some pasta
00:28 <    dgilmore> | thl: :
00:28 <    dgilmore> | ;)  yum
00:29 <         thl> | quaid, I'd say we should plan to remove those in two or three weeks
00:29 <         thl> | quaid, so there is still some time to fix all those stupid typos and grammatical mistakes thl made ;-)
00:29 <       quaid> | :)
00:30 <         thl> | shall we plan 20070401 as target date for remoal of those warnings?
00:30 <    dgilmore> | wy is rhn down again
00:30 <         f13> | dgilmore: RHEL5 syncup
00:30 <    dgilmore> | thl: sounds good
00:30 <         thl> | I can send a mail to the list asking people to look over it
00:30 <    dgilmore> | f13: ahh
00:31 <       quaid> | new code, too
00:31 <    dgilmore> | f13: do you know of anyone we could bug that would let us be able to rsync trees from cvs-int
00:32 <    mmcgrath> | Sorry guys I have to scoot, an out of town friend just dropped by :-/
00:32 <    dgilmore> | mmcgrath: have fun
00:32 <         thl> | mmcgrath, yeah, have fun!
00:33 <         thl> | btw, is anybody willig to work out two small scripts?
00:33 <         thl> | so make it a bit easier for dgilmore to branch packages for EPEL?
00:34 <         thl> | one script that looks at owners.list for all packages owned by foo
00:34 <         thl> | and another script that creates owners.eple.list entries and the branches from a string like "EL-4 foo@bar baz foobar ..."
00:35 <         thl> | quaid, btw, what's your take on the steering issues?
00:35 <         thl> | should we have a steering committee soon?
00:35 <       quaid> | thl: sorry, which?
00:35 <       quaid> | oh
00:36 <       quaid> | are we prepared to have an election for it?
00:36 <         thl> | quaid, I'd say FESCo should appoint people
00:36 <         thl> | and then we target for a election three months later
00:37 <       nirik> | so all thats just so we can vote on fedora-usermanagement?
00:37 <    dgilmore> | thl: if we have one thats how i would say we do it
00:37 <         thl> | nirik, well, I think it's a general problem
00:37 <       quaid> | thl: that's interesting, in that I don't think FP has a process for that
00:37 <         thl> | the question "who decides" in not regulated afaics
00:38 <         thl> | I can ask FESCo what they would prefer
00:38 <       quaid> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects
00:39 <       quaid> | it's the last section
00:39 <         thl> | quaid, I'd say we should not make a official project yet
00:39              * | thl takes a look
00:39 <       quaid> | right, so to have a steering committee implies formal project
00:40              * | thl wonders why can't we have a SIG that has a steering committee without being a official project
00:40              * | quaid adds anchors and toC to that page
00:40 <       quaid> | thl: maybe we can
00:40 <       quaid> | thl: in which case, appointment is the form, i guess
00:41 <         thl> | quaid, FESCo should be able to regulate it
00:41 <         thl> | the question still is if we want one...
00:41 <       quaid> | maybe wait until the SIG is too big?
00:42 <         thl> | quaid, or until problems that need to be solved can't get solved without an real consensus
00:42 <       quaid> | yeah
00:43 <         thl> | other opinions? dgilmore, nirik ?
00:43 <       nirik> | well, I hate to add a bunch of overhead just to solve one contentious issue...
00:44 <    dgilmore> | nirik: indeed
00:44 <       nirik> | didn't ensc say fedora-user-mgmt won't work on EL4? we could then remove it for now and let fedora come up with a solution down the road?
00:44 <         thl> | nirik, well, having a steering committee might makes things easier sometimes, too
00:44 <    dgilmore> | i think if we have a steering committe we are likely to diverge from fedora
00:44 <         thl> | nirik, the lates version doesn#t work on EL4
00:44 <         thl> | nirik, older ones do
00:44 <    dgilmore> | id like to do whatever we can to make sure we dont
00:45 <       nirik> | dgilmore: +1
00:45 <    dgilmore> | thl: the version in EL-4  should be FC-3's
00:45 <    dgilmore> | so it should work
00:46 <         thl> | yeah, it should
00:47 <         thl> | so we leave this open as see how it envolves over time?
00:48 <       nirik> | I think it should be possible to come to some technical consensus... not easily, but it should be possible
00:49 <       nirik> | I do see ensc has been putting up ideas for what should be addressed in a replacement, which is good.
00:49 <         thl> | k
00:49 <         thl> | so anything else?
00:50 <         thl> | or shall we adjourn and meet again next week?
00:50 <       nirik> | do we want to look at a new meeting time where more of the people from the list can make it?
00:51 <       nirik> | might help solve some of the issues if we can get everyone talking...
00:51 <       nirik> | s/talking/typing/
00:51 <         thl> | nirik, I asked once on the mailing list if people would like a new meeting time
00:51 <         thl> | one or two weeks ago
00:51 <         thl> | I got no replay
00:51 <         thl> | reply
00:51 <       quaid> | we should discuss it on list :)
00:51 <         thl> | but I agree, we should ask once again on the list
00:51 <       quaid> | now that we all experienced DST pain, it will be back on people's minds
00:52 <       nirik> | huh... not sure I ever say it... ok.
00:52 <       nirik> | ever saw it. Sorry, cold meds must be affecting my typing. ;)
00:53 <         thl> | nirik, I think it was in a meeting summary
00:53 <         thl> | so anything else?
00:53 <         thl> | or close for today?
00:53 <       nirik> | ok, we should post again now about it in it's own post. Can you do that thl ? or would you like me to?
00:53 <    dgilmore> | i have nothing else
00:54 <    dgilmore> | my time available for meetings is limited
00:54 <    dgilmore> | i cant do it during work time
00:54 <         thl> | nirik, I'll do
00:54              * | thl will close the meeting in 30
00:54              * | thl will close the meeting in 15
00:55            <-- | jmbuser  has left #fedora-meeting ( "Leaving")
00:55 <         thl> | -- MARK -- Meeting end
00:55 <         thl> | thx guys
00:55 <       nirik> | dgilmore: yeah, but after business hours some weeknight might work?
00:56 <       nirik> | thanks thl
00:57 <         thl> | nirik, thx in the middle of the night for me....
00:57 <         thl> | s/thx/that's/
00:57 <       nirik> | whats your TZ offset? if it's late enough here wouldn't it be your morning?
00:57              * | quaid notes that FDSCo is meeting currently in #fedora-docs
00:57 <         thl> | everything later in the evening than FESCo is problematic for me
00:57 <         thl> | nirik, UTC-1
00:58 <         thl> | nirik, UTC-2 when in two weeks, when we get DST
00:58 <         thl> | I'm on the yeboard at round about 6:40 local time in the mornings
00:58 <       nirik> | quaid: might suggest switching to here? it's nice to have all the meetings in one place so people can lurk and hear about things they normally don't know about...
00:58 <    dgilmore> | nirik: yep  but i think its to late for europe
00:58 <       quaid> | nirik: it's an ongoing discussion at the moment, actually
00:59              * | thl really likes #fedora-meeting -- that way one gets a chance to look what the others are discussing
00:59 <    dgilmore> | thl: :)  yep i like it to