Beginners guide to getting involved (2008-11-08) classroom

Fedora Classroom - Beginner's guide to getting involved - Paul Frields - Saturday, November 8, 2008

IRC Log of the Class

-!- nirik changed the topic of #fedora-classroom to: Fedora Classroom - Beginner's guide to getting involved with your teacher: stickster - See Communicate/IRC/Classroom for more info		22:00
* kdn *hearing the class bell ring**		22:00
fengshaun	kdn, LOL!!!!	22:00
stickster	Hello everyone!	22:00
fengshaun	stickster, hello!!!	22:01
stickster	First, thanks to Jon Stanley, a hard man to follow	22:01
Ineluctable	are logs going to be posted for every class?	22:01
erinlea80	Hi Stickster!	22:01
kdn	hi, stickster	22:01
thomasj	hello stickster	22:01
@nirik	Ineluctable: yes.	22:01
mattia	hello stickster	22:01
stickster	And thank you also to Kevin Fenzi for setting up the Fedora Classroom	22:01
fengshaun	nirik, where?	22:01
Ineluctable	nirik:ty	22:01
@nirik	fengshaun: linked from the classroom page: Communicate/IRC/Classroom	22:01
stickster	and to the other instructors who are donating their time this weekend to help us all learn a little more about Fedora	22:01
fengshaun	nirik, good, thanks	22:01
@nirik	stickster: thanks. :) take it away.	22:01
stickster	So for those who don't know me, I'm the Fedora Project Leader	22:02
stickster	You probably know my predecessor Max Spevack	22:02
stickster	I started at Red Hat in February 2008 as the FPL	22:02
stickster	And I'm going to talk to you about how to get involved in Fedora.	22:02
stickster	I want to encourage everyone to ask questions as we go	22:02
stickster	Otherwise my typing hands are going to get very tired	22:02
stickster	And you'll get very bored.	22:02
stickster	The first question I want to talk about, which I'm sure a lot of people have, is "why?"	22:03
stickster	Why should I get involved in Fedora?	22:03
stickster	Well, let's step back to look at the bigger question, which is why to get involved in free software at all.	22:04
stickster	How is it that free software is free anyway?	22:04
Abd4llA	the community	22:04
stickster	True, some of the work that goes into free software is produced by companies -- like Red Hat, the company I work for.	22:04
They are, for example, the single biggest corporate contributor to the Linux kernel, which runs every Linux box out there
stickster	Abd4llA: EXACTLY! Excellent answer	22:05
stickster	Free software is free because ALL the work that goes into it is *donated*.	22:05
stickster	And the *vast* majority of those donations don't come from companies at all	22:05
stickster	They come from people who just love to help each other build and learn new things.	22:05
stickster	Free software, just like any software endeavor, is not just about code.	22:06
brunowolff	I like being able to fix stuff myself when needed.	22:06
stickster	It's also about all the things that bring it to as many people as possible.	22:06
stickster	brunowolff: Precisely!	22:06
stickster	Isn't that a great pleasure of free software?	22:06
erinlea80	are most contributions non-monetary in nature?	22:06
fengshaun	brunowolff, +1	22:06
stickster	You can do that because the code has been donated under a free license	22:06
kdn	If you can't void the warranty, if you can't open it, you don;t own it.	22:07
stickster	Someone took the precise step of making that code free, so you would be able to look at it and fix what you need to,	22:07
to make it do what you want.
brunowolff	That makes it easier and republishable, but binaries can get fixed when needed to,	22:07
brunowolff	too,	22:07
stickster	erinlea80: I think it's hard to say, but that's my suspicion, yes	22:07
stickster	Most contributions *are* non-monetary	22:07
stickster	They're more often -- I believe -- contributions of time, effort, and knowledge.	22:07
erinlea80	:)	22:08
stickster	You don't have to be well-heeled to do something good for your community or for people halfway around the world	22:08
stickster	You just need to devote some time	22:08
kdn	+1	22:08
stickster	Free software is used all over the world by people you may never meet, but whose life you're making better by your	22:08
investment of time and energy
ricky	I've been wondering - can the idea of open source apply to patents as well, and is there any common license that is used	22:09
to make patented ideas "open" ?
stickster	Teseting and quality assurance, translation, documentation, marketing...	22:09
stickster	*Testing	22:09
ricky	Patents as in the ideas themselves, as opposed to the expression of the ideas (the code)	22:09
jds2001	ricky: there are things like OIN, if that's what you mean.	22:10
stickster	ricky: That's a good question, maybe outside the scope of getting involved, but generally patents can be granted in	22:10
ways that open them up to the community
stickster	jds2001: +1	22:10
jds2001	and let's not forget about the Firestar settlement.	22:10
ricky	Ah, cool	22:10
stickster	OIN is the Open Invention Network:	22:10
stickster	http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/	22:10
stickster	So where was I?	22:10
stickster	OH yes	22:10
stickster	Testing and quality assurance, translation, documentation, marketing...	22:11
stickster	and many other efforts	22:11
stickster	All these things go into making software of any kind	22:11
stickster	And with free software, these are efforts the community can join	22:11
stickster	(Of course, if you write code, that's great too!) ;-)	22:11
fengshaun	stickster, question!	22:11
stickster	The more donations there are, the faster that free software improves.	22:11
stickster	fengshaun: Ask away!	22:11
fengshaun	how much coding knowledge should you have?	22:11
fengshaun	to contribute?	22:12
VileGent	!	22:12
stickster	You don't need *any* coding knowledge for many of the things that Fedora needs	22:12
jds2001	as much or as little as you like.	22:12
jds2001	down to none.	22:12
fengshaun	for the coding part, I mean!	22:12
fengshaun	oh	22:12
stickster	If you *can* code, there are additional ways you can contribute, but even complete non-coders can help	22:12
stickster	fengshaun: Let me give you an example	22:12
stickster	ME	22:12
stickster	I am not a coder.	22:12
stickster	I started out in 1997 as a Linux user	22:12
VileGent	fengshaun, you can always help in #fedora as well	22:12
stickster	Linux helped me advance operations in my office, because the code was open and auditable	22:13
fengshaun	VileGent, yes, I try to do that as much as I can!	22:13
stickster	When I found out the Fedora Project existed, and Red Hat had started a community Linux distribution project,	22:13
I jumped at the chance
stickster	I became a documentation writer, which was good for me because I was not an experienced software developer	22:13
erinlea80	What attracted you to the Fedora Project vs. other distro. efforts?	22:14
erinlea80	(besides a paid job at RedHat)	22:14
stickster	erinlea80: The funny thing was, I got involved 5 years ago	22:14
nuonguy	can I give another reason to get involved?	22:14
stickster	erinlea80: And I never wanted a job at Red Hat	22:14
jds2001	the paid job is a very recent thing.	22:14
Abd4llA	erinlea80: good question	22:14
erinlea80	ah okay.	22:14
stickster	I did it because it was a way of giving back to a community that helped me build my career	22:14
stickster	A career that had nothing to do with free software itself	22:14
stickster	So I dived in to help	22:15
stickster	And eventually one thing led to another	22:15
stickster	working in Fedora Documentation became...	22:15
stickster	working on the Fedora Docs Steering Committee...	22:15
stickster	became...	22:15
stickster	working as an inaugural member of the Fedora Board...	22:15
stickster	became...	22:15
stickster	getting a call from Max to see if I was interested in a job.	22:16
stickster	And honestly, I didn't *need* this job, but it was too fascinating to pass up!	22:16
stickster	And now I get to spend all day (and many nights) ;-) working with and talking to fine people like yourselves!	22:16
stickster	erinlea80: There's another half to your question	22:17
stickster	I got involved in Fedora because it was the first community distribution that had its roots in a long-standing commercial product	22:17
stickster	I had used the commercial product for a long time so it was natural that I was interested in diving into building it	22:17
erinlea80	That certainly makes sense. :)	22:17
stickster	Debian was *obviously* there earlier	22:18
stickster	But others like OpenSuSE and Ubuntu came about because Fedora blazed the trail of a partnership between commerce and community	22:18
* stickster pauses now to see if there are other questions he hasn't answered		22:19
* roguedaemon waves		22:19
stickster	OK then	22:19
stickster	moving on...	22:19
* thomasj waves back		22:19
stickster	Now I've done a little rah-rah cheerleading, it's time to talk nuts and bolts a little.	22:19
stickster	The first thing you need to get involved is a Fedora account	22:20
Bugz	I'm interested a little in how to contribute to documentation, an overview of how the process works	22:20
stickster	Bugz: Great question	22:20
stickster	Bugz: And I'll get there in just a few minutes	22:20
stickster	Docs, like all our other projects, requires a Fedora account	22:21
stickster	Where do you get one?	22:21
stickster	https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts	22:21
stickster	This used to be a really difficult process but fortunately it's all a couple mouse clicks away now	22:21
Abd4llA	stickster: would a redhat account do ?	22:21
stickster	We don't really treat @redhat.com substantially different from anyone else	22:22
stickster	You'd still want a Fedora account	22:22
ricky	(they're two different systems)	22:22
stickster	ricky: +1, exactly	22:22
Abd4llA	k	22:22
stickster	What does a Fedora account get you?	22:23
stickster	1. A Fedora identity, which you can use for group access for more technical tasks, if that's where you want to get involved	22:23
stickster	2. A SSH account on fedorapeople.org, and 150 MB of shareable web space	22:23
* nirik also notes an openid you can use at sites that take openid too.		22:24
stickster	3. Other benefits like the possibility of an IRC cloak that makes you show up as (for example) "fedora/johnpublic" on IRC	22:24
thomasj	fas.. ok	22:24
domg472	do we still need a telephone to be able to register?	22:24
stickster	4. A Voice-over-IP account where you and fellow contributors can contact each other	22:24
zless	stickster, oh? i thought you still need approval from 'spot' for that IRC cloak.	22:25
stickster	zless: It's not automatic but there aren't any real entrance requirements; you just need to request one	22:25
Ineluctable	are there free voip accounts?	22:25
ivazquez	Not so much approval as much as he has to request it.	22:25
stickster	domg472: You need a contact number, whether it's your own or someone who can get a hold of you	22:25
domg472	i don own a telephone :/	22:26
jds2001	someone you know surely does.	22:26
kdn	Could you elaborate on IRC cloaking?	22:26
domg472	thanks for the answer	22:26
stickster	domg472: If you have family with a telephone, that would suffice I believe	22:26
stickster	This is a legal requirement since Fedora does have to adhere to US laws and regulations	22:27
kdn	'twasn't clear to me how to make the request ..	22:27
stickster	Ineluctable: Yes, the VoIP account is free, but it does not allow outgoing calls	22:27
stickster	So you can't use it for free long-distance, for example	22:27
ivazquez	It doesn't have PSTN connectivity.	22:27
stickster	But you can use it to receive calls and to contact other Fedora contributors who are signed onto the VoIP system.	22:27
stickster	ivazquez: Actually it does, but only incoming.	22:27
Ineluctable	stickster: can I contact other fedora members?	22:27
ricky	kdn: FreenodeCloaks	22:27
ivazquez	Fair enough.	22:28
jds2001	yes, you can call me at 5102788 for example.	22:28
stickster	Ineluctable: Yes, absolutely, if their phones are signed in.	22:28
brunowolff	That's neat. Is there a directory? Can people use it to call you?	22:28
kdn	tks, ricky	22:28
stickster	Yes	22:28
stickster	All right, so that's enough about the benefits	22:29
stickster	But to keep our eyes on the prize:	22:29
stickster	It's not all about what you get	22:29
stickster	It's what you *give*	22:29
stickster	Being a contributor is more than just being a proud user of free software	22:29
stickster	Although I think that everyone here is probably the latter, too	22:29
stickster	I know I am!	22:29
stickster	What are some ways to get involved in contributing to Fedora?	22:29
stickster	I'm going to talk about some of the groups in Fedora and what they do	22:30
brunowolff	Filing bug reports	22:30
stickster	brunowolff: +1, yes, QA and bug triage	22:30
stickster	(which jds2001 spoke about so eloquently earlier)	22:30
stickster	Anybody else have ideas?	22:30
doddo	packaging	22:30
brunowolff	Maintaining packages	22:30
stickster	doddo: +1	22:30
stickster	brunowolff: OK, you've had your limelight! :-D	22:30
stickster	kidding!	22:31
stickster	anyone else?	22:31
brunowolff	In your intro you didn't mention artists.	22:31
domg472	i am just helping people out on irc	22:31
Sid	there's way more, translation, documentation, infrastructure	22:31
stickster	What about translation?	22:31
Ineluctable	distribution of media or anything else that brings members to the community?	22:31
kdn	documenting?	22:31
erinlea80	marketing and advocacy	22:31
cga	hi all	22:31
Abd4llA	What exactly is "Maintaining packages " ?	22:31
stickster	Sid: +3	22:31
stickster	Ineluctable: +1	22:31
stickster	kdn: +1	22:31
thomasj	hopefully, helper in #fedora as well	22:31
stickster	erinlea80: +1	22:31
stickster	thomasj: +1!	22:32
stickster	What about helping with website maintenance?	22:32
stickster	Web design?	22:32
stickster	What about system administration and infrastructure tasks?	22:32
stickster	All of these things allow you to get involved.	22:32
neverho0d	local community support	22:32
kanarip	Abd4llA, maybe i can answer that for you?	22:32
zless	getting ISPs to stop using bastardized and/or EOL versions of Fedora?	22:33
stickster	Abd4llA: kanarip: And I think ivazquez is doing a classroom session in ~30 minutes on that very subject	22:33
zless	:)	22:33
Ineluctable	how about host events that bring the community togther as well as non-members	22:33
erinlea80	install fests.	22:33
stickster	Ineluctable: Yes, Ambassadorial duties +1	22:33
stickster	So let's talk a little about some of these groups.	22:33
stickster	First, translation	22:33
kanarip	Abd4llA, a package, as you know, gets updates to make sure bugs are fixed, security issues are closed,	22:33
enhancements are incorporated
kanarip	Abd4llA, somebody has to update those packages and make sure everything works on an installed system; that is	22:34
practically what package maintainers do
Abd4llA	gr8	22:34
stickster	So...	22:35
stickster	There are hundreds -- maybe *thousands* -- of people donating time to translate software and documentation	22:35
stickster	We have a Translation (also called Localization or "L10n" for short) team	22:35
stickster	that works on these issues	22:35
stickster	and a dedicated site and project	22:35
stickster	http://translate.fedoraproject.org/	22:36
stickster	There is also a wiki page devoted to the L10n team whre you can find information on joining	22:36
stickster	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10n/Join	22:36
stickster	All you need is a computer, some time and energy, and knowledge of US English and at least one other language	22:36
fengshaun	darn, I have to go out!	22:37
stickster	Translators work on the software in Fedora that is specific to Fedora (like system-config-* tools)	22:37
fengshaun	sorry stickster, and see you everyone!	22:37
jds2001	FergatROn: that's fine, the logs will be there :)	22:37
stickster	and documentation like the release notes and installation guide	22:37
stickster	our websites, and so on...	22:37
LinuxCode	stickster, I hope you meant International English	22:37
stickster	To make Fedora accessible to people all around the world	22:38
fengshaun	jds2001, thanks!	22:38
stickster	LinuxCode: Any English will probably do nicely ;-)	22:38
Abd4llA	what if I'm a developer, I get to work only in the software specific to Fedora ?	22:38
doddo	so how does it work IRL, for example the translation part, there must be some workflow, right? I meen you dont	22:38
just start translating randomly?
jds2001	Abd4llA: we would very much encourage you to work upstream as well.	22:39
stickster	Abd4llA: Not at all, but if you want to work on non-Fedora specific software, you would probably want to get	22:39
involved with the upstream community that provides that software
stickster	doddo: That's right	22:39
jds2001	and anything that you put in Fedora should be on a path to upstream.	22:39
stickster	doddo: And the people at the L10n team, as well as a locale-specific team in your nation, can help you get started	22:39
stickster	Obviously there's not time for me to tell everyone about how each specific team works	22:40
stickster	(and I'd probably get the details wrong if I tried!)	22:40
stickster	jds2001: +1	22:40
stickster	jds2001 has pointed out a very important part of how Fedora contributions benefit the *entire* free software community	22:40
stickster	Everything we do, everything we use, and everything we create in Fedora is 100% free and open source	22:41
Discordian	Except the artwork etc?	22:41
stickster	Discordian: No, actually, artwork is exactly the same	22:41
Discordian	Ahhh ok	22:41
stickster	100% free and open source, and more than that, *created* with free and open tools	22:41
Discordian	Yes I appreciate that	22:42
jds2001	the only thing that you need permission for is the logo.	22:42
stickster	So the Artwork team uses, for example, tools like GIMP and Inkscape	22:42
jds2001	but that is very specifically not included in the artwork.	22:42
ivazquez	Trademark law still applies.	22:42
stickster	jds2001: Yes, that's right -- the Fedora logo is an official trademark	22:42
Discordian	jds: thanks that's what I was thinking of	22:42
kiakli	and rpmfusion-free is 100% free?	22:42
stickster	Which is why we specifically *don't* put it in our artwork	22:42
stickster	So that others can use it	22:42
Discordian	inkscape is very cool	22:42
@nirik	kiakli: they are not part of fedora. ;) Ask them what they mean by free there.	22:43
stickster	So Discordian helped me get Artwork into the discussion	22:43
stickster	How about documentation?	22:43
stickster	Just about anyone can help with cleaning up wiki pages	22:43
stickster	Or collecting information into helpful pages	22:43
stickster	If you are willing to learn a few new skills, you can also work on some of our bigger documents	22:44
stickster	like the Release Notes and the Installation Guide	22:44
stickster	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Join	22:44
kdn	Supposing that I have a FAS account(I do), and supposing I want to contribute(I do), how can I play along?	22:44
stickster	kdn: http://join.fedoraproject.org	22:44
kdn	brb	22:44
stickster	That URL will help you find a team that does things you might want to help do	22:45
Discordian	I'd certainly like to help if I can	22:45
zless	i suppose typical, example workflows would be helpful	22:45
brunowolff	Do you have to be in the Doc group to edit random (not your own) wiki pages or is CLA good enough?	22:45
stickster	brunowolff: Great question!	22:45
domg472	i contribute to documents just by helping the writer, answering questions etc	22:45
stickster	brunowolff: When you get a Fedora account, that is *all* you need to help on the wiki	22:45
stickster	You sign into the wiki with the same user name and password.	22:45
stickster	domg472: And you can extend that work into your local community with the Ambassadors program too	22:46
domg472	good to know	22:46
domg472	most of my work is on irc	22:46
stickster	Ambassadors spend some of their free time talking to local individuals, groups, schools, businesses, government, etc.	22:46
about Fedora
* erinlea80 would love to hear more about local community initiatives...		22:46
stickster	Ambassadors also give Fedora a presence at trade shows in their areas	22:47
stickster	To spread the word about Fedora and free software, and help answer questions in person	22:47
stickster	erinlea80: You would probably be very interested in what our Ambassadors do, then	22:47
stickster	They are really the bridge between Fedora and all the local communities in the world where free software can help make	22:47
people's lives better
stickster	I have a quesetion	22:48
stickster	Actually, I have a *question*	22:48
stickster	Are there any system administrators present (other than current Fedora principals)?	22:48
* erinlea80 raises her hand		22:48
Discordian	I'm a sysadmin	22:48
doddo	yeah I am too	22:48
kdn	a-yup	22:48
stickster	You might be interested in our Infrastructure team	22:48
neverho0d	me too	22:48
domg472	i adminstrate my system sure	22:48
stickster	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure	22:48
kiakli	+1	22:49
stickster	In particular, sysadmins who run multiple systems for *other* people?	22:49
domg472	not a pro here ;)	22:49
Discordian	Yeah I might be more use packaging stuff	22:49
Abd4llA	I amm	22:49
stickster	Even if you only administer *your* system	22:49
kdn	yep	22:49
neverho0d	i am	22:49
stickster	you can get involved in Fedora Infrastructure	22:49
Discordian	I run stuff for other people	22:49
erinlea80	I run multiple systems for a fortune 100 giant	22:49
stickster	They maintain a world-class server backend that makes the whole Fedora Project run	22:49
stickster	including technologies like virtualization, change management systems, automated backups, distributed source	22:50
code management, and hosted projects
stickster	We have equipment located around the world	22:50
stickster	And a "follow-the-sun" team that keeps it all running smoothly	22:50
Discordian	I tend to use CentOS for servers but it's all part of the family	22:50
Discordian	Yeah I've done follow the sun with USA, JA and AU servers as well as UK	22:51
Abd4llA	stickster: are there any "windows" servers :P	22:51
stickster	It's a great place to learn about the methods they use for easy and scalable system administration	22:51
stickster	Abd4llA: HA HA HA!	22:51
stickster	:-)	22:51
stickster	So I would recommend that if you have skill or interest in that, Infra is where it's at	22:52
Discordian	Oh dear he said the W* word	22:52
LinuxCode	lets flog him	22:52
LinuxCode	;-p	22:52
LinuxCode	in a hypothetically sense	22:52
stickster	Jon talked very eloquently already about bug triage, which is part of a larger quality assurance (QA) effort	22:53
LinuxCode	stickster, does the infrastructure team run git etc.. and decide on whats run ?	22:53
stickster	LinuxCode: I believe they use git for most of their source control tasks	22:53
LinuxCode	or does the steering committee decide on what software they want run ?	22:54
stickster	LinuxCode: They also provide CVS, SVN, bazaar, and Mercurial	22:54
stickster	And there may be one more in there that I'm forgetting	22:54
LinuxCode	interesting	22:54
stickster	They provide those SCM's for other projects too	22:54
Ineluctable	stickster: Just a thought but I think that the fedora-classroom should be add to http://fedoraproject.org/join-fedora	22:54
page as an on going live training, or school enviroment type of thing.
stickster	So each software project gets to choose its SCM	22:54
jds2001	the main fedora repo uses CVS for specfiles.	22:54
Discordian	maybe the other is RCS or perforce?	22:55
jds2001	however, each hosted project is free to choose their SCM.	22:55
stickster	Ineluctable: I'm absolutely sure that nirik will be doing that once we have settled into a routine and know that people like	22:55
this as a continuing effort
jds2001	Discordian: neither of those :)	22:55
ivazquez	Within limits.	22:55
ivazquez	svn, git, hg, bzr, mtn.	22:55
stickster	mtn, that's the one.	22:55
jds2001	ahh yes, mtn	22:55
Discordian	ahhh ok	22:55
@nirik	Ineluctable: yeah, we will be learning from these sessions and updating things. Thats a great idea.	22:55
stickster	Thank you ivazquez	22:55
stickster	There is also the Websites team, which is different from the Infrastructure team	22:56
stickster	They work on design and implementation of our sites	22:56
stickster	keeping everything looking good and showing helpful information on each main web page	22:56
Discordian	I couldn't design my way out of a paper bag lol	22:56
stickster	It's the intersection of usability, design, and Web programming	22:56
stickster	Another group I don't want to forget is the Fedora News team	22:57
stickster	They provide a weekly newsletter that lets everyone know what's been going on in Fedora	22:57
stickster	Being on the Fedora News team couldn't be simpler	22:57
brunowolff	They are pretty go about that. There was a bodhi update that required javascript for something to work so I	22:57
filed a complaint and
* kdn noting that the lecture hall now has > 80 members. Good!		22:57
stickster	You just have to be able to summarize discussions and events in one specific area of Fedora (like, for example,	22:57
the Websites team) for publishing in the Fedora Weekly News
brunowolff	a couple of hours later there was a new bodhi release with a fix. I was stunned.	22:58
brunowolff	I think Luke did that.	22:58
stickster	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN	22:58
stickster	brunowolff: I'm constantly amazed at how much a volunteer team can get done	22:58
stickster	We do have some leadership from paid Red Hat employees in specific cases	22:58
Ineluctable	nirik: Awesome I am a beginer at linux and fedora but I do enjoy learning and maby one day teaching. I am going to	22:58
set up an fas account so I can contribute, please let me know how I can help with the fedora-classroom project,
stickster	But a *lot* of the work is done by contributors around the world	22:59
stickster	Wow, my time is nearly up here	22:59
stickster	I hope this has been a helpful introduciton	22:59
@nirik	Ineluctable: excellent. Feel free to find me after the sessions are over.	22:59
stickster	I would like to give a challenge to everyone watching --	22:59
stickster	Get involved!	22:59
Discordian	Thank you stickster	22:59
stickster	You can make a difference in the lives of MILLIONS of people	22:59
@nirik	thanks stickster !	22:59
erinlea80	thank you stickster!	22:59
domg472	thanks	22:59
Bugz	thank you stickster	22:59
* stickster waves at everyone and thanks nirik again for the opportunity		22:59

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