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< BugZappers | Meetings
Bug Triage Meeting :: 2009-01-27
Attendees
- tk009
- John5342
- jds2001
- poelcat
- mcepl
- SMParrish
- wwoods
Fedora 11 Goals
- Continue discussion around what we want to accomplish for Fedora 11
- Goals that are achievable and measurable
- Ideas:
- Help people discover their set of components to follow
- Build individual relationships with maintainers
- Each person set a personal goal of how many bugs they plan to triage
- Identify important components and assign people to them
- Focus on components related to the feature list
- Focus on components with the most reported bugs--
- http://tinyurl.com/ck6fpa
curl -s -L http://tinyurl.com/dl9tb5 |sort -k2 -t, -rn
- Reorganize the wiki pages to better attract and retain new people
- Do a better job of retaining new people--current success rate is low
- Continue discussion on #fedora-bugzappers and fedora-test-list@redhat.com
- NEXT MEETING: lock down goals for Fedora 11
Top F10 Bug Components (compliments of wwoods)
- kernel
- anaconda
- xorg-x11-drv-ati
- selinux-policy
- xorg-x11-drv-i810
- NetworkManager
- PackageKit
- system-control-network
- pulseaudio
- mkinitrd
- gdm
- evolution
- selinux-policy-targeted
- rpm
- nautilus
- firefox
- xorg-x11-server
- java
- hal
- compiz
- yum
- openoffice
- initscripts
- glibc
- xorg-x11
Last Meeting Follow-up
- BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Jan-13#Previous_Meeting_Follow-up
- most of the F11 housekeeping page done--just tidying
- jds2001 still has a FIXME BugZappers/HouseKeeping/Fedora11
- query for rawhide rebase needed to be modified to exclude bugs blocking next release trackers
IRC Transcript
| poelcat | who is here? | 07:02 |
|---|---|---|
| tk009 | =) | 07:03 |
| poelcat | mcepl: John5342 jds2001 ping | 07:03 |
| poelcat | tk009: hi | 07:03 |
| John5342 | poelcat: hi | 07:03 |
| mcepl | pong | 07:03 |
| * SMParrish joins the crowd | 07:04 | |
| poelcat | mcepl: was there a topic you wanted to cover? | 07:05 |
| mcepl | was it? I was just thinking now about BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Jan-13#Goals_for_Fedora_11 | 07:05 |
| poelcat | let's start there :) | 07:06 |
| poelcat | has anyone thought any more about what we want to accomplish during Fedora 11 ? | 07:06 |
| mcepl | I thought: | 07:08 |
| mcepl | 5. help people to discover their set of components to follow | 07:08 |
| poelcat | that sounds good | 07:09 |
| * jds2001 here, sorta | 07:09 | |
| poelcat | do you have ideas on how we can do that? | 07:09 |
| mcepl | the question behind this is whether we want to support more “whole crowd goes after this set of bugs” (which seems to be prevalent notion here) or “this is a group of small bugmasters over some component(s) helping each other” (which is more style of work) | 07:09 |
| mcepl | *my style of work | 07:09 |
| poelcat | that is a good point | 07:10 |
| poelcat | i think up until now because there is (what appears) to be a small group of people invovled | 07:10 |
| mcepl | and behind that is my doubts about 1. -- how come we can go on de-duplication in crowd, when it (IMHO) requires a lot of experience with given component (try to make order out of NetworkManager bugs without spending endless hours with them) | 07:10 |
| poelcat | we just tried to cover everything | 07:11 |
| mcepl | and covered nothing ... | 07:11 |
| mcepl | (sorry, cannot resist) | 07:11 |
| mcepl | ;-) | 07:11 |
| poelcat | :) | 07:11 |
| poelcat | yes, it can feel that way sometimes | 07:11 |
| SMParrish | My feeling is people should concentrate on apps they use and are familiar with. Should also get to know the packagers for those apps as well. Thats why I do only KDE related zapping | 07:12 |
| poelcat | mcepl: would it make sense to create a list of "important" components and have people pick from tose? | 07:12 |
| poelcat | those | 07:12 |
| mcepl | yeah, that’s point 3. and I think it is the heart of the matter | 07:12 |
| mcepl | (or we cannot make them, but we can suggest these as the most helpful etc) | 07:13 |
| poelcat | for example, focus on triaging kernel bugs instead of that autogenerated "fever" stuff | 07:13 |
| mcepl | well, yes, except I don't think we have enough manpower to do much difference in kernel bugs ... but yes | 07:13 |
| John5342 | i still reckon that fever stuff should be auto assigned | 07:14 |
| poelcat | John5342: i couldn't get the owner of that thing to respond to our request to do that | 07:14 |
| jds2001 | John5342: me too, but we don't run it :( | 07:14 |
| mcepl | well, yes, or that behind every assignment should be somebody specific who is responsible for passing the bug in the right direction (e.g., me & xgl-maint@redhat.com) | 07:15 |
| poelcat | mcepl: something about that sounds wrong to me though... just because we can't make a difference we shouldn't do anything | 07:15 |
| John5342 | was wondering if there was a way to auto assign bugs by a particular user considering they all come from that one user | 07:15 |
| poelcat | granted I have felt that way too :) | 07:15 |
| mcepl | John5342: oh sorry, you mean fever like PackageMaintainers/FEver ? | 07:15 |
| John5342 | correct | 07:15 |
| jds2001 | so supposedly ubuntu has been more successful than we have. | 07:16 |
| mcepl | and gnome | 07:16 |
| John5342 | wasnt aware there was another fever | 07:16 |
| jds2001 | but I can't actually see why. | 07:16 |
| jds2001 | therefore, I propose what anthropologists call "participant observation" | 07:16 |
| mcepl | me too (and my managers as well :() | 07:16 |
| mcepl | yeah, | 07:16 |
| poelcat | i'd say they are because they have ongoing events centered around triage | 07:16 |
| skvidal | jds2001: I thought scientists called that 'mucking up the results' | 07:17 |
| mcepl | so, let's make some | 07:17 |
| poelcat | and a lot more activity than us... at least in blogs i've seen | 07:17 |
| jds2001 | skvidal: hehe :) | 07:17 |
| John5342 | tk009 and i were also chatting after last meeting about more ways to bring more people to the cause and more importantly keeping those who do join. | 07:17 |
| jds2001 | tk009 and i had a nice chat at fudcon too. | 07:18 |
| tk009 | tk009 is a nut don't listen to him | 07:18 |
| jds2001 | lol | 07:18 |
| poelcat | John5342: do you think our "cause" is well defined and valuable enough? | 07:18 |
| John5342 | tk009: lol | 07:18 |
| tk009 | I am still very new here and see everything as a new person would | 07:18 |
| tk009 | my thoughts are on that alot | 07:18 |
| John5342 | poelcat: i think one of the bigger issues is that we dont seem to keep the people we do get coming in. | 07:19 |
| jds2001 | and that's really valuable, actually. | 07:19 |
| jds2001 | fedorabugs has 1000+ members | 07:19 |
| jds2001 | package maintainers automatically get it. | 07:19 |
| poelcat | sometimes I fear that even for the people that are involved they may feel like their efforts are in vain when nothing happens to the bugs they triage | 07:19 |
| jds2001 | so that accounts for ~800 | 07:19 |
| jds2001 | the delta is 200 potential triagers (and some maintainers are potential triagers as well) | 07:20 |
| mcepl | poelcat: they need to get into contact with the actual developers -- relationship is the key | 07:20 |
| poelcat | IOW we have a problem getting more triagers and a potentially larger problem of maintainers ... this has been brought up on fedora-devel before | 07:20 |
| tk009 | do evs want more triagers? | 07:21 |
| tk009 | devs* | 07:21 |
| tk009 | I get the feeling most dont | 07:21 |
| John5342 | th009 and i were talking about re-organizing the wiki to try and make it easier and simpler for people to understad what they are doing and we should also make it even more clear what help and experience there is | 07:21 |
| poelcat | mcepl: long term I agree.. how can we form these relationships quickly? what can goals can we set and accomplish for Fedora 11? | 07:21 |
| jds2001 | skvidal: your thoughts here since you chimed in earlier? :D | 07:21 |
| skvidal | jds2001: I was just playing peanut gallery, sorry. | 07:21 |
| mcepl | poelcat: concerning maintainers I think it is inevitable -- we have to stop growing in the terms of number of packages somewhere -- we cannot outgrow Debian ;-) | 07:22 |
| jds2001 | i know, and you got recruited :D | 07:22 |
| mcepl | back to point -- what are the manageable and important components which needs to get into order? | 07:22 |
| jds2001 | basically question is do you personally see triagers as able to have a positive impact, and do we want more? | 07:22 |
| mcepl | *point 3. | 07:22 |
| poelcat | let's cover mcepl's point and then jds2001 | 07:23 |
| poelcat | mcepl: how can we get this component list? | 07:23 |
| mcepl | Releases/11/FeatureList -- and see where can we help? | 07:23 |
| poelcat | i've asked a few people and not gotten any help | 07:23 |
| poelcat | mcepl: so create a component list from each of the feature pages? | 07:24 |
| mcepl | e.g., if you buy me a big bottle of Rhinerhisling I am willing to fight with ibus -- I am afraid (after my experience with scim) that it will be buggy as hell. | 07:24 |
| poelcat | :) | 07:25 |
| * jds2001 ends up typing with IM's that I don't understand the output sometimes :/ | 07:25 | |
| mcepl | SMParrish: you can go through everything new in KDE and make sure there are no bugs missed, that -blocker, -target bugs are up-to-date etc. | 07:25 |
| poelcat | so we start w/ a list of components from the feature list... what about the rest of the distro... how can we generate a list of say the top 100 or 500 components? | 07:25 |
| mcepl | poelcat: after F11 GA, I think | 07:26 |
| poelcat | ? | 07:26 |
| poelcat | we want to set goals to accomplish by F11 :) | 07:26 |
| jds2001 | number of bugs filed? | 07:26 |
| SMParrish | Can do | 07:26 |
| mcepl | I would rather make now something which makes the visible difference -- 100 components we are not able to cover | 07:26 |
| poelcat | mcepl: how can we measure a visible difference? :) | 07:27 |
| mcepl | by skvidal mentioning on fedora-devel how wonderful we helped him? (sorry, I cannot resist) | 07:27 |
| poelcat | oh i see... you're saying 100 is too big | 07:27 |
| mcepl | yeah | 07:27 |
| skvidal | mcepl: you work for lenovo? | 07:28 |
| mcepl | skvidal: apage, satanas!!! | 07:28 |
| mcepl | (sorry, was just kidding) | 07:28 |
| skvidal | ah | 07:28 |
| tk009 | I decided on a personal goal since we need to act timely | 07:29 |
| tk009 | since last tuesday | 07:29 |
| mcepl | skvidal: BTW, you don't have problems with managing yum bugs? | 07:29 |
| tk009 | I decided I wil ltry to triage 400 bugs this cycle | 07:29 |
| mcepl | tk009: COOL!!! | 07:29 |
| skvidal | mcepl: of course I do - we get a ton of them :) | 07:29 |
| tk009 | these other idea's can be incorporated in to that | 07:29 |
| tk009 | but I do feel we need to act | 07:30 |
| * poelcat starts printing pledge cards ;-) | 07:30 | |
| poelcat | I like it | 07:30 |
| mcepl | poelcat, jds2001, etc.: would anybody want to help skvidal? ;-) | 07:30 |
| jds2001 | i know yum fairly well. | 07:30 |
| skvidal | mcepl: no one wants to help with yum bugs - it's like helping lepers | 07:30 |
| jds2001 | dunno the internals, but I could learn that fairly quick I think :) | 07:30 |
| mcepl | skvidal: yeah, that's us -- helping to leprose!!! | 07:30 |
| poelcat | mcepl: so then we don't worry/focus on critical components like the kernel? | 07:31 |
| mcepl | skvidal: no seriously, I see on Releases/11/FeatureList only Presto, is there any part of yum which is especially messy? | 07:31 |
| * poelcat notes presto is on its way to be dropped | 07:32 | |
| mcepl | poelcat: I don't know, but I think kernel could be chewed upon only in parts (KVM PCI Device Assignment)? | 07:32 |
| poelcat | no update since 2008-09 | 07:32 |
| wwoods | speaking of "top N components" - has anyone ever made a list of the top ~30 components by number of bugs filed? | 07:32 |
| jwb | i recall seeing that at one point | 07:32 |
| mcepl | poelcat: or NM & wifi bugs? (I spent whole morning trying to understand interaction between Firefox and NM ;-)) | 07:33 |
| wwoods | would be super-helpful for the problem-reporter idea I keep messing with | 07:33 |
| poelcat | wwoods: good idea... i wonder if bz can generate that automatically | 07:33 |
| poelcat | wwoods: is dkl nearby to answer that question? | 07:34 |
| jds2001 | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/report.cgi?x_axis_field=&y_axis_field=component&z_axis_field=&query_format=report-table&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&deadlinefrom=&deadlineto=&bug_status=NEW&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailty | 07:35 |
| buggbot | <http://tinyurl.com/cr2249> (at bugzilla.redhat.com) | 07:35 |
| * jds2001 notes 0xFFFF has 14 bugs and none of them are related to 0xFFFF | 07:36 | |
| jds2001 | it's just first in the list. | 07:36 |
| poelcat | right | 07:36 |
| mcepl | jds2001: much more important question is -- what is 0xFFFF ? :) | 07:37 |
| jds2001 | mcepl: i forget, some dwmw2 package i think :) | 07:37 |
| poelcat | jds2001: does that link point to a report? i just end up at the "Reporting and Charting Kitchen" | 07:38 |
| jds2001 | The Open Free Fiasco Firmware Flasher | 07:38 |
| mcepl | jds2001: me too | 07:38 |
| jds2001 | poelcat: yeah | 07:38 |
| jds2001 | maybe irc cut it off | 07:38 |
| mcepl | jds2001: could you post tinyurl, please? | 07:39 |
| jds2001 | http://tinyurl.com/ck6fpa | 07:39 |
| jds2001 | you could grab the CSV of that and sort it however. | 07:40 |
| poelcat | yeah, i'll do that as a next step | 07:40 |
| poelcat | so what are our ideas for goals so far? | 07:40 |
| poelcat | i've got | 07:40 |
| poelcat | 1) set a personal goal-- and meet it | 07:40 |
| poelcat | 2) ? | 07:40 |
| * poelcat is a little fuzzy on what the goal is around what we've just been discussing | 07:41 | |
| * jds2001 might try to whip up some python to generate that on the fly | 07:41 | |
| * jds2001 too (fuzzy that is) :) | 07:41 | |
| kulll__ | ^_^ | 07:42 |
| John5342 | only half mentioned so far but try and identify what people might be good at triaging and individuals concentrate on those | 07:42 |
| mcepl | poelcat: to get a list of components which we should focus on | 07:42 |
| poelcat | mcepl: okay... so it is a sub-part of the goal of "focusing on a limited set of components to triage for F11" ? | 07:44 |
| poelcat | John5342: grow the ActiveTriagers list by ____ people ? | 07:44 |
| mcepl | yup, components with the highest number of bugs are certainly interest (except for Package Review, which is another issue) | 07:45 |
| wwoods | sort -k2 -t, -rn FILE.csv -> | 07:45 |
| wwoods | kernel, anaconda, xorg-x11-drv-ati, selinux-policy, xorg-x11-drv-i810, NM, PK, s-c-n, pulseaudio, mkinitrd, gdm, evolution, selinux-policy-targeted, rpm, nautilus, firefox, xorg-x11-server, java, hal, compiz, yum, ooo, initscripts, glibc, xorg-x11 | 07:45 |
| wwoods | (that's F10, obviously) | 07:45 |
| mcepl | wwoods: xorg* bugs are mine | 07:45 |
| John5342 | poelcat: that too (growing active triagers) | 07:46 |
| mcepl | anaconda is covered by Fedora QA, isn't it? | 07:46 |
| wwoods | yeah - basically anaconda is alindebe | 07:46 |
| mcepl | John5342: how would you like to do it? | 07:46 |
| John5342 | mcepl: getting people in will probably be harder but we need to work on keeping people active rather than letting them fade away so to speak. | 07:47 |
| mcepl | so, SELinux (always good idea -- leprose like skvidal's yum), NM & s-c-n, PK, PA, etc. | 07:47 |
| mcepl | John5342: yeah, give them something to do ... | 07:47 |
| John5342 | mcepl: amongst other things. also give them the best support we can to get them started | 07:47 |
| mcepl | John5342: yeah, that's what #fedora-bugzappers is for, but let's keep on creating the list -- we are running out of the time soon | 07:48 |
| poelcat | John5342: is there a way to quantify or make it more specific so that we'll know at the end and along the way how we are doing? | 07:48 |
| mcepl | poelcat: which of the wwoods's list of components matches releases on Releases/11/FeatureList ??? | 07:49 |
| mcepl | s/releases/features/ | 07:49 |
| John5342 | poelcat: quantifying needs a bit more work. all i know is i saw about 4 new people in meetings since starting and only 1 remains | 07:49 |
| tk009 | there is another | 07:49 |
| tk009 | fcami | 07:49 |
| tk009 | =) | 07:49 |
| mcepl | tk009: yeah | 07:50 |
| John5342 | tk009: thanks. i stand corrected. thats still only 2 out of 5 | 07:50 |
| kulll__ | elo | 07:50 |
| tk009 | hello | 07:50 |
| tk009 | there are 119 days left in this cycle | 07:51 |
| poelcat | how about if we try to keep discussing our goals for F11 on the list ? | 07:51 |
| tk009 | we will have to | 07:51 |
| poelcat | tk009: yes :-/ | 07:51 |
| poelcat | and then next week really should lock something down? | 07:51 |
| John5342 | and also discuss in #fedora-bugzappers too if thats any better | 07:52 |
| poelcat | granted a discussion on the list may end up all over the place w/ others chiming, but such is the nature of things and maybe we'll get something good that way too | 07:52 |
| poelcat | John5342: good idea | 07:53 |
| poelcat | quick check on last meeting followups... BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Jan-13#Previous_Meeting_Follow-up | 07:53 |
| John5342 | also the wiki might be a good place to put any more general stuff we come up with during the week | 07:53 |
| poelcat | anything to report back on? | 07:53 |
| John5342 | i got most of the F11 housekeeping page done. just tidying. | 07:54 |
| poelcat | John5342: excellent! | 07:54 |
| John5342 | jds2001: you still had a FIXME on the old page. i copied it accross. BugZappers/HouseKeeping/Fedora11 | 07:54 |
| John5342 | will update Template to match it once FIXMES have been tidied up. | 07:55 |
| John5342 | same goes for new list names (transfer to fp.o) | 07:55 |
| poelcat | John5342: i think the query for rawhide rebase needed to be modified to exclude bugs blocking next release trackers | 07:56 |
| mcepl | poelcat: could we make sure, that curl -s -L http://tinyurl.com/dl9tb5 |sort -k2 -t, -rn ends up in the meeting record? | 07:56 |
| poelcat | mcepl: you got it! :) | 07:56 |
| mcepl | I mean including above the line .... | 07:57 |
| John5342 | poelcat: thats what i understand too. have copied stuff like that so we can perfect it | 07:57 |
| poelcat | i'll post the minutes like I usually do ... anyone should feel free to ammend or modify them! | 07:57 |
| mcepl | sure | 07:57 |
| poelcat | okay so next week we'll lock down our F11 goals and start to be greeted by more bugs as a result of the F11 alpha ! | 07:58 |
| poelcat | anything else before we close? | 07:58 |
| tk009 | we are done =) | 07:59 |
| poelcat | thanks everyone! | 08:00 |
| * John5342 waves goodbye | 08:00 | |
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