BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Mar-03

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Bug Triage Meeting :: 2009-03-03

Attendees

  • poelcat
  • John5342
  • JStizzle
  • iarlyy
  • imbrius
  • mprice
  • beland
  • mcepl
  • adamw
  • tk009

Meeting Summary & Action Items

It was great to see a lot of new BugZappers memebers at the meeting today. Thank you for taking the time to attend.

You can test the signature script by posting a comment to this bug here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=485962

  • Wiki Updating - The updating of the BugZappers wiki space will begin with the BugZappers front page and a page merging the ActiveTriagers and Components pages.

Here are two drafts for review of the modified front page. Please feel free to comment on or edit either.

  1. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/BugZappers
  2. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Tk009/bugzappers

beland will be creating a draft page merging the information from the ActiveTriagers and components pages. Once complete he will email the link to the mailing-list for review.

  • (SOP) Standard Operating Procedures - General discussion began on creation of SOP's for the BugZappers, and that they should be created concurrently with the wiki update. Then focused on SOP for joining/new members of the BugZappers. Specifically the "introduction e-mail". No decission was reached during the meeting regarding procedure.

Action Items

  • Unassigned - Create a draft of SOP for new BugZappers members. - Document requirements have yet to be defined.
  • Unassigned - Create a draft for a greasemonkey wiki page - This would be to merge all existing and scattered BugZappers greasemoneky information in to one page.
  • Tk009 - Create new or edit the existing BugWorkFlow.png to correct conflicting/confusing information regarding the flow from the "NEEDINFO" flag.

IRC Transcript

poelcat who do you we have today? 07:01
* John5342 is here 07:01
JStizzle me 07:01
iarlyy iarlyy, is here 07:02
* imbrius is here 07:02
* poelcat sees lots of new people on fedora-test-list which is great! 07:02
* mprice is here 07:02
poelcat welcome JStizzle iarlyy imbrius mprice John5342 ! 07:02
John5342 poelcat: *new* fedora-test-list? 07:02
poelcat adamw: jds2001 mcepl and any of the other regulars.. ping 07:03
beland bonjour 07:03
* mcepl is here 07:03
poelcat John5342: people introducing themselves 07:03
John5342 poelcat: sorry. misread 07:03
adamw morning 07:03
JStizzle good morning 07:03
mcepl adamw: afternoon ;-) 07:04
poelcat adamw: good (early) morning! 07:04
JStizzle I don't know what you all are talking about. It's 10:04am. :) 07:04
adamw this could go on alllll day :) 07:04
imbrius Yayy, timezones! 07:04
mcepl you mean 16:04, right? 07:04
* poelcat looks for the agenda 07:05
* mcepl agrees 07:05
imbrius we wouldn't have this problem if the planet wasn't this odd round shape... 07:05
JStizzle we would have a host of other problems if it wasn't though 07:05
imbrius heh - fix one bug, cause a million 07:06
adamw poelcat: what, timezone discussion isn't on the agenda? 07:06
poelcat adamw: we'll hold a special meeting for it next week ;-) 07:06
JStizzle sweet 07:06
poelcat okay... sorry for the slow startup 07:06
poelcat first off, welcome to all the new folks 07:06
* JStizzle tries to conjure up a good ntp joke and fails 07:06
poelcat great to have you have you 07:07
mcepl YAYY!!!! NEW FOLKS!!!! YAY!!! 07:07
poelcat we'll run through a few business items and then at the end of the meeting move over to #fedora-bugzappers 07:07
poelcat where we'll continue with some live triaging, help, etc. 07:07
poelcat adamw: did I get that right? 07:07
poelcat first two topics are from comphappy 07:08
adamw poelcat: yes indeed 07:08
poelcat greasmonkey and triage stats... from a quick glance at the list this AM he is still working on things 07:08
mcepl co 07:08
mcepl sorry 07:08
poelcat until he gets the plugin thing working where are we pointing people at to get the bugzappers GM script? 07:09
poelcat anyone? 07:10
mcepl poelcat: if the question was on me, no clue ... I was working on merging all scripts into one, but not done yet 07:10
poelcat it would be good if we could give it out at our triage day :) 07:10
adamw someone said they'd work on that last week didn't they? 07:10
* adamw consults minutes 07:11
poelcat comphappy was working on it 07:11
poelcat he couldn't come today 07:11
adamw ah 07:11
mcepl adamw: comphappy is the official maintainer of the script which I write ... you know those Red Hat guys, they have to have upstream always ;-) 07:11
adamw hehe 07:11
iarlyy he have a git repository, i don't remember the link 07:11
poelcat okay we'll have to track that down later 07:12
adamw for the triage day i can just throw up the versions of both scripts i have onto my own site if nothing else. 07:13
John5342 i have the link to the script i was asked to try last week adding signatures if that helps 07:13
mcepl adamw, poelcat: https://fedorahosted.org/triage/browser/greasemonkey ??? 07:13
poelcat we should probably have one focused wiki page about greasemonkey script... how to get it configure it, etc. 07:13
poelcat there we go! 07:14
poelcat thanks adamw 07:14
mcepl but that looks kind of busted 07:14
iarlyy a center place for GM will be good. 07:14
mcepl I always thought that it is that fedorahosted.org repo? 07:15
mcepl but I don't use it myself, so not sure 07:15
poelcat also described here w/ a link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Tools 07:15
poelcat which is a lead in to our next topic... wiki pages :-/ 07:16
* poelcat not sure where to start :) 07:16
poelcat we all agree the wiki pages need to be better.. the part we probably don't all agree on yet is how to get them to a better place 07:17
adamw how about beland tells us his Grand Plans 07:17
adamw and we all call him Napoleon 07:17
adamw =) 07:17
mcepl and let him do it ... ;-) 07:17
beland Well, I laid out all of the decision points in my last long email...I can recap. 07:17
poelcat beland: go for it! 07:17
beland First, for approval: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Joining/tmp 07:18
* poelcat wonders if we should set aside a day, like for the today's triage day, but to focus on fixing up the wiki 07:18
poelcat beland: can you start with your overall vision of how things should be layed out ? 07:19
beland which is a merge of BugZappers/HelpWanted with BugZappers/Joining 07:19
adamw poelcat: i'm not sure it would benefit from that format. to be honest, i think this is probably best done via the list 07:20
beland If you mean my front page draft, that's at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/BugZappers 07:20
adamw so people have time to hash out, evaluate and discuss drafts 07:20
poelcat adamw: true 07:20
adamw i suspect if we try and handle it in the meeting it'll be a huge time sink and not get anything much done 07:21
adamw i guess what we should look at in the meeting is, does anyone have a big fundamental objection to the objective of re-organizing and re-designing the wiki, or some kind of guiding principle they'd like to use, or anything 07:21
adamw something big but shallow that we can usefully discuss / agree on in a ten-minute time frame 07:21
* poelcat thankful adamw is thinking clearly today :) 07:22
beland It should be better than it is now. 8) 07:22
poelcat beland: +1 07:22
adamw what I really want to have is a very clear flow from the front page which allows a new person to come along and do everything they need to do to start zapping bugs 07:23
adamw there's a lot of other stuff we can usefully have in the wiki, but that's the bit i really want to have there 07:23
imbrius Well, for starters, I didn't see anything about the GM script there. I didn't know about it until just now. 07:23
adamw right, that would be part of the flow 07:23
beland So we have 2 drafts of the front page; is either going in a good direction? 07:23
adamw list discussion! :) 07:24
beland Is GreaseMonkey ready for people to use? 07:24
adamw beland: the greasemonkey scripts we have, yes 07:24
beland Where are they? 07:24
JStizzle https://fedorahosted.org/triage/browser/greasemonkey 07:24
beland Oh, dear. 07:24
beland That's not very user-friendly. 07:24
adamw the main one is, as mentioned above, discussed at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Tools 07:25
poelcat my overall concern is that was the approach we took 1 year ago.. we tried to be careful and be respectful of stuff people had created in the past and merge it into other places... i'd rather see us create some new pages the right way, then move lots of stuff around and merge one thing into another 07:25
adamw the new one for signatures isn't yet but would obviously be added there 07:25
poelcat so starting from a new front page is probably a good place to start 07:25
poelcat should that be our first goal? 07:25
beland Ah, there you go, that's better. 07:25
adamw yeah. that's how we did it for the main QA space and it worked quite well. 07:25
poelcat or should our first goal be a newbie "getting started guide" ? 07:25
adamw poelcat: front page first is fine. the newbie-getting-started thing is not a single page, it's a flow of pages going from the front page 07:26
adamw so the front page needs to be right 07:26
tk009 gareed 07:26
beland Well, as far as I'm concerned, I've already rewritten the front page and I'm working on the how-to... 07:26
tk009 agreed* 07:26
adamw beland: everyone else is a bit behind =) 07:26
beland Tell me about it. 07:26
poelcat beland: link? 07:26
adamw ok, so for the list: let's agree on a front page draft and then go from there. 07:26
poelcat so by next meeting let's discuss beland's draft of the front page on the list 07:27
beland As posted above and in my e-mail: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/BugZappers 07:27
beland There's also User:Tk009/bugzappers 07:27
poelcat are there any other versions that should be considered? 07:28
* poelcat will add those two to the recap 07:28
beland Just those two, for the front page. There were literally 10 other questions enumerated in my e-mail which need discussion. 07:29
poelcat beland: yes, this process will take time :) 07:29
beland Though the major knotty one we were supposed to discuss today was how to track component ownership 07:29
beland Or at least who is working on which. 07:29
poelcat okay let's move onto tracking component ownership 07:30
beland The big question being, I think, how to indicate whether or not a given component needs/wants additional help? 07:30
imbrius beland: other than asking in #fedora-bugzappers 07:31
imbrius beland: which is how I got that info 07:31
beland Primarily on the wiki. 07:31
imbrius beland: and which components don't want triage - like anaconda 07:31
beland I think it would be lovely if new BugZappers didn't ever have to use IRC; they could get everything they needed to know just by reading the wiki. 07:32
poelcat i think we have two issues here... 07:32
poelcat 1) we have a list of what we considered "important components" for F11 07:32
poelcat 2) we have a list of ActiveTriagers 07:32
poelcat 3) we don't really have a list of what beland is pointing to 07:33
poelcat we probably need to fix all three :) 07:33
iarlyy activetriagers and your components 07:33
poelcat the problem i see is trying to make each of these wiki pages do too many things 07:33
poelcat which i think is definitely happening with https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Components 07:34
poelcat which got a redirect from Goals 07:34
beland Hmm, I was thinking it would be clearer if there were only one table of components, which also listed active contributors and a flag about whether or not more help was wanted. 07:34
mcepl well, I think we need to merge ActiveTriagers and Components web pages into one. Then beland's list would just happen. 07:34
imbrius I second beland's idea. 07:35
adamw so does mcepl. :) 07:35
mcepl yeah 07:35
adamw sounds fine to me 07:35
adamw i'm worried about it getting cruft-y, as the current 'active triagers' list has, but that's sort of unavoidable. 07:35
John5342 without trying to add more work to people what about making components etc part of triage stats 07:35
beland Hopefully it will be easier to maintain one table than several. 07:35
poelcat adamw: we clear it out for each release ? 07:35
mcepl ... after each release when we plan what to do for the next one 07:36
mcepl  ? 07:36
poelcat beland: can you create a new draft in your namespace and send it to the list? 07:36
adamw poelcat: that'd probably work, yeah. 07:36
beland Sure. 07:36
poelcat adamw: last part of "background" https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/ActiveTriagers 07:37
poelcat beland: okay, thanks 07:37
poelcat so we are tackling two wiki tasks first, then others will follow 07:37
poelcat 1) front page 07:38
poelcat 2) components/who is triaging what 07:38
poelcat everyone agree? 07:38
* imbrius agrees 07:38
iarlyy +1 07:38
beland  ::general applause:: 07:38
poelcat beland: you proposed a lot of a great stuff and we'll eventually get to all of it, just want to make sure we can consume it in small pieces 07:38
poelcat so everyone can stay invovled :) 07:39
poelcat next item in the agenda was about "Bug Work Flow" 07:40
poelcat does anyone know what the issues or concerns are here? 07:40
beland Sure, makes my job easier...I'll clean my house while everyone catches up. 8) 07:40
* yunustj thinks that the component list will be sorted by number of bugs 07:40
tk009 to much sugar beland ? =P 07:41
beland Apparently some of the info on the bug workflow page is incorrect... 07:41
* poelcat notes the bug counts should be rawhide bugs only 07:41
beland Having to do with NEEDINFO and flags 07:41
imbrius poelcat: I second that - many of the nautilus bugs are for f9 07:41
tk009 one of the things pointed out to me as that needinfo points back to new in the flow.prg 07:41
poelcat ahhh, that is from when NEEDINFO was a bug state 07:42
tk009 that was confusing dash123 07:42
imbrius poelcat: YEAH - that confused me too! 07:42
adamw so, agenda: someone fix the picture? :) 07:42
poelcat anyone want to take a shot at fixing the picture? 07:42
tk009 me and art hate each other =) 07:42
tk009 if no one speaks up tho 07:43
adamw tk009: congratulations! :) 07:44
tk009 lol 07:44
tk009 kk 07:44
poelcat we also had an agenda itema about creating som BugZappers SOPs 07:44
poelcat i wonder if it makes sense to wait on that 07:45
poelcat until we get the wiki better sorted out? 07:45
poelcat thoughts? comments? 07:45
beland Are you talking about things currently filed under Housekeeping? 07:45
poelcat i'd consider that one of the SOPs 07:45
adamw he's going on the Infrastructure group model, i think 07:45
John5342 poelcat: dont think it matters when its done since whatever we write can be incorporated into present and/or future version of the wiki 07:46
adamw basically they write out standard procedures for...more or less everything 07:46
poelcat adamw: yes, which i think rocks 07:46
imbrius adamw, poelcat: I totally agree 07:46
adamw i like the idea, i just hope we wouldn't get buried in writing sops and not have time to do any actual triage :) 07:46
poelcat because then they don't have to spend a week like us wondering how "fedorabugs" works :) 07:46
adamw but it would definitely be sane for things like accepting new members 07:46
poelcat John5342: excellent point 07:47
imbrius (aside: what keeps making all those accound sign on/off every few minutes?) 07:47
imbrius accounts* 07:47
poelcat so it sounds like away here is "write SOPs" in your own namespace, we'll pull them in when the time is right 07:47
beland First step would be just listing which "things" need to be documented. 07:47
poelcat beland: the only one that comes to mind is getting 'fedorabugs' 07:48
adamw imbrius: net splits. they don't usually happen so often, though. 07:48
-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 150 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 149 normal] 07:49
adamw poelcat: ok, so you write a SOP and we'll approve it :) i think it should basically just be "check the applicant sent a self-introduction mail to the list and it wasn't written in blood or crayon, if so, approve"... 07:49
beland A list of size one, then. 07:49
adamw beland: good size to start with 07:49
beland And don't make them sign the CLA. 07:50
poelcat related to 'fedorabugs'... what did folks think of stickster's suggestion of an introduction first? 07:50
JStizzle how do you know my email wasn't written in blood? 07:50
beland I actually hate introductions. 07:50
tk009 I do as well 07:50
imbrius beland: as do I 07:50
adamw hmm, discord! ok, why? 07:50
adamw JStizzle: i had it analyzed by the CSI guys. they can do that. 07:50
poelcat beland: imbrius so what do i do when i see a queue of 50 people wanting fedorabugs? 07:50
JStizzle you guys hate receiving them, or writing them? 07:50
tk009 if you want to know me talk to me, anti social I am working on it 07:50
imbrius poelcat: I understand their purpose 07:51
adamw tk009: how do we talk to new people if we don't know they exist? 07:51
* stickster points out that we do need a method of discriminating between bots and people since we're giving power to do things like close or reassign bugs. 07:51
imbrius I don't object to their use 07:51
tk009 that was just for me =) 07:51
tk009 and as you have seen I let it been known I am around =P 07:51
beland 1.) I don't particularly want to share personal details to be recorded on the Internet for all time, and 2.) I'd rather people judge me by my contributions and not my biography. 07:51
stickster The barrier should be as low as possible, and no lower 07:51
adamw tk009: no-one gets a notification when someone signs up for the mailing list. in the current situation, no-one but the fedorabugs group admins actually know when someone's trying to 'become' a bugzapper 07:51
imbrius It just seems a little "first day of class" - go around the room and introduce yourself 07:51
JStizzle the point is moot if you're an existing member is it not 07:52
poelcat JStizzle: yes 07:52
adamw JStizzle: yes, but if a significant number of existing members wouldn't have liked the idea of sending an introductory email, we can assume it's possible a significant number of potential new members might not either 07:52
poelcat i'm just looking for some way to not spend my whole day giving 'fedorabugs' to people that aren't going to use it 07:52
beland If you want a simply bot test, you can either use a captcha or send them a personal email. 07:52
JStizzle then don't call it an 'introduction', call it a 'unique character string' 07:53
stickster beland: Does that mean you're volunteering to do that work? 07:53
adamw beland: sending a personal email each time gets old fast, plus there's about six group admins, so we'd somehow have to co-ordinate who was mailing who. 07:53
stickster adamw: True also 07:53
mcepl poelcat: how many of them you have? really? if there is a problem, you can hand it to me ... 07:53
adamw mcepl: we had about ten applicants this week. three more this morning. 07:53
tk009 wow 07:54
beland Is someone doing publicity all of a sudden? 8) 07:54
mcepl and is there a problem? ten a week? 07:54
* stickster notes that Docs team has been using the self-introduction for years and had few problems with people not wanting to do them, yet wanting to be involved. 07:54
poelcat yes, which is what i was trying to say in my mail to the list.. lots of signups, but where do they go? :) 07:54
beland Putting a captcha in the loop wouldn't require a lot of operational work. 07:54
poelcat ~1300 people in fedorabugs 07:54
JStizzle how about a very short personal statement that doesn't actually contain any personal information to distinguish you from bots? 07:54
* poelcat thinks the bot issue is not the real issue 07:55
adamw stickster: how do you know people aren't just saying "hmm, don't want to send an introduction email, i'll just not join in then" and going away? 07:55
* mcepl thinks bot issue could become a real issue in future 07:55
adamw anyhoo, i'm with poelcat. i think the point here is to try and get new people involved right away 07:55
adamw they post to the list, people say hi, they feel involved 07:55
beland Trying to exclude people who aren't particularly active means that casual triagers will be discouraged. 07:55
beland If you want to keep the barrier to entry low, approval should be fairly automatic. 07:56
poelcat i want there to be a small level of seriousness to getting 'fedorabugs' and then being encouraged to use it 07:56
John5342 the kind of people who seriously want to help are probably also the kind of people who may not like introducing themselves but will anyway in order to help 07:56
adamw as it is, it's probably quite easy to think 'hmm, this might be fun', join the group, miss the first meeting, then just sort of fade away... 07:56
stickster adamw: True, it's sort of a self-selecting sample. 07:56
adamw what do our newcomers think on this issue? those who are here? 07:56
poelcat that's the part i think we should somehow fix 07:56
beland There is something of a tradeoff between getting people to commit to something in order to encourage them to put time into it, and scaring people away because commitment is required. 07:57
adamw do you guys like the self-introduction idea or no? 07:57
JStizzle adamw: I personally like the idea of an introduction for several obvious reasons. 07:57
JStizzle I want to see what strengths new members bring to the team 07:57
poelcat beland: well put 07:57
JStizzle full disclosure: I am very social and outgoing. 07:58
imbrius I concede the point that it is very useful to have introductions. 07:58
* poelcat sees we have ~1 minute left 07:59
* stickster trying to imagine an effective triager who doesn't introduce himself to the team somehow. 07:59
beland Well, I never did. 07:59
imbrius Yeah 07:59
stickster beland: You must have done so here in IRC, right? 07:59
iarlyy a simple introduction doesn't mean your bank password, 'Hi i'm iarly, from brazil, work with linux since 1000 years ago, and want help with bugtriage', what the problem 07:59
imbrius stickster: I agree 07:59
tk009 I never did either 07:59
beland No. 07:59
JStizzle what about a choice: introduce to the list or to #fedora-bugzappers? 07:59
poelcat beland: and some of us wondered "who is this guy changing all the wiki pages?" :) :) 07:59
adamw beland: would you be OK if the introduction didn't need to include any particular personal information? 07:59
beland And that's the way it should be. 8) 08:00
adamw we don't NEED to know people's real names or where the live or anything 08:00
adamw that's not the point of the list 08:00
adamw er, the mail 08:00
beland Then what *is* the point? 08:00
adamw it's just to a) prove you're a real person willing to commit to at least sending a message to a mailing list and b) sucker the newbie into being involved 08:00
JStizzle to make sure it's not a computer machine :) 08:00
imbrius Thanks for the meeting, but I have a job interview - I'll see everyone later on. 08:00
beland A captcha can differentiate between people and bots easily enough. 08:00
stickster beland: It's not part of FAS right now. So relying on a nonexistent technical feature to do this means someone has to commit to creating or integrating it. 08:01
poelcat let's move this discussion to fedora-test-list.. i'll start a new thread 08:01
adamw beland: actually, captchas are pretty often cracked these days. and, seea bove 08:01
tk009 continue in the bugzappers? 08:01
beland I dunno, I'm just coming in from the Wikipedia culture, where anonymous contributions are highly welcome and encouraged, and people are very worried about squashing them. 08:01
poelcat tk009: yes 08:01
JStizzle tk009: indeed 08:01
poelcat we're at the end of our slot 08:01
tk009 sorry kde team =) 08:02
poelcat take it away rdieter 08:02
poelcat everyone come on over to #fedora-bugzappers for some triaging good times! 08:02
poelcat <EOM> 08:02

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