Meeting:Board meeting 2009-01-06

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Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2009-01-06

FAMSCo Chair Approval

  • FAMSCo has submitted Francesco Ugolini to retun as FAMSCo chair
  • RESOLUTION: Francesco Ugolini is unanimously confirmed as the FAMSCo chair

Q&A Topics

  • When will the last board appointment be announced?
  • What are the board's current thoughts are on the effectiveness of these town hall meetings?
  • What is being done to improve our testing procedures?
  • When will more information be disclosed about The Incident?
  • What is the status of the security response plan?
  • What audio/video options are available for people who cannot come to FUDCon?


stickster Before we get started, I just wanted to say thank you to Karsten and Jef for working with the Board for the last year 11:01
quaid my deep pleasure 11:01
* quaid thanks the Academy and all the little people 11:01
quaid *sniff* I know you love me, you really do! 11:02
stickster Please sweep your own flowers off the stage as you depart for the cheap seats 11:02
mdomsch hear hear! 11:02
stickster In all seriousness though, these guys have both done a great job representing community interests on the Board over the last 12 months 11:03
f13 indeed 11:03
stickster All right, if no one has anything to add, we'll do our one agenda item, which is FAMSCo chair approval 11:03
stickster poelcat: Did you have anything else on the agenda for the last Board meeting? 11:03
stickster (for this Board) 11:04
poelcat stickster: that was it 11:04
quaid oh, you mean I have one last chance to redefine all the guidelines and stage a coup? 11:04
* quaid thought he was a lame duck 11:04
* stickster vetoes quaid on the forehead 11:05
quaid shoot, forgot about that one 11:05
stickster  :-) 11:05
spevack stickster: finally a chance to use the veto! :) 11:05
quaid does this mean I have to return the rubber stamp, too? 11:05
mdomsch I want the rubber stamps bought to FUDCon 11:05
mdomsch brought 11:05
stickster I think I forgot to give Harald his when I saw him at LinuxTag. 11:05
spevack i bought them for last year's fudcon... some people got them, but i don't know who 11:05
stickster OK, back on topic... 11:06
* skvidal has never gotten a rubber stamp :( 11:06
* quaid never actually go his, to be honest 11:06
skvidal and I've been on the board for-freaking-ever 11:06
mdomsch nor I 11:06
quaid skvidal: you *are* the rubber stamp 11:06
* spot stamps all over the place 11:06
* notting has one. but it's in his cube in raleigh 11:06
spevack we'll make more :) 11:06
stickster skvidal: I'll bring yours to FUDCon, it's up to you to remind me to give it to you :-) 11:06
skvidal ok 11:07
stickster OK, FAMSCo has submitted Francesco Ugolini to retun as FAMSCo chair. In favor? 11:07
mdomsch +1 11:07
notting +1 11:07
f13 +1 11:07
ctyler +1 11:07
skvidal is there any reason to be against him that I haven't heard? 11:07
* spot stamps 11:07
spot err, +1 11:07
* quaid stamps +1 as well 11:07
skvidal I kept looking - but I couldn't find anything terribly controversial 11:07
h\h +1 11:07
skvidal okay, +1 11:07
quaid skvidal: actually, he rocks 11:07
stickster Everyone loves fugolini AFAICT. 11:07
skvidal since all the cool kids are doing it 11:07
skvidal okie 11:07
stickster He's done a fantastic job for months in this role, and was re-nominated by the new FAMSCo 11:08
mdomsch you get the elected officials you deserve - Ambassadors are doing a great job => fugolini will continue to do a great job 11:08
stickster precisely. 11:08
stickster So the Board has spoken unanimously as well and confirms FAMSCo's selection. 11:09
stickster Congratulations and good luck to Francesco! 11:09
stickster So, shall we move to Q&A then? 11:09
spevack inode0 asks when the final appointed board member will be announced. 11:10
stickster By tomorrow. 11:10
spoleeba stupid bosses 11:10
spoleeba talking to me at 10 am 11:10
stickster spoleeba: Welcome :-) 11:10
spevack alrighty then. inode0 also asks what the Board's current thoughts are on the effectiveness of these town hall meetings 11:11
quaid did he mean all of them or just the Board's? 11:11
ctyler these townhall meetings, or the ones that were run during the election(s)? 11:11
spot people have yet to discover a way to pelt me with rotten fruit in our online meetings. 11:11
stickster In further answer to the previous question, I spent part of yesterday talking to a few people who were either up for, or put people up for, nomination 11:11
spevack i believe he means, actually, the election town hall meetings 11:11
stickster Just had to finish those discussions today 11:11
stickster eof 11:12
spevack as opposed to these monthly ones 11:12
ctyler I think the election townhalls were good, but underattended 11:12
ctyler I would recommend that in the future people who can't attend synchronously be permitted to send questions to the moderator via e-mail in advance 11:12
quaid the biggest problem I had was the lack of controversy; not sure if it was the questions or the medium, but people just tended to agree with each other :) 11:13
ctyler Everyone can read the transcripts after 11:13
quaid ctyler: +1 11:13
stickster ctyler: That's a very good suggestion. 11:13
notting ctyler: that is a good idea. they seemed OK to me. i think enough people attended to make them worthwhile, although more is always good 11:13
spoleeba quaid, wow...a lack of a bad thing 11:14
mdomsch Do we need _more_ townhalls? The board had 2, fesco 1, ambassadors 1 11:14
stickster But I think this also highlights the fact that when you have many people working cooperatively in a collaborative project, it's hard to find differentiators, as opposed to what happens in the party system 11:14
quaid spoleeba: ok, that was unkind of me ... 11:14
spoleeba quaid, don't we have enough drama on -devel-list? 11:14
quaid more like, there was an unusual level of agreement compared to f-devel-l 11:14
quaid and if you don't read the devel list 11:14
quaid you don't see these people in the other medium 11:14
* quaid wasn't the only person who 'complained' about that; he saw it in the public channels 11:15
spoleeba quaid, here's what that tells me... the people who are stadning up to be leaders..are rational..reasonable..and well informed people 11:15
quaid otoh, as you say, if we are truly in agreement, who cares? 11:15
skvidal quaid: true 11:15
spoleeba quaid, what we are a white house press core with balls enough to stick the verbal knife in and twist 11:16
quaid spoleeba: well, that works for a standing group; but an electing group is harder, esp. when folks aren't the ones responsible for the sharp stuff that people are mad about. 11:16
ctyler as long as they don't stick the knife in to things that no one cares about, just to get the reaction 11:17
spevack inode0 notes that some candidates did not attend, which made it difficult to compare them to the ones who did, [aside from grading on punctuality, moderator's addition] 11:17
spoleeba quaid, if people arent asking the hot questions..we wont see scandalous answers 11:17
* quaid ponders creating a page of controversial topics/memes for the future :) 11:17
mdomsch spevack, inode0, I think that was true only of the single ambassadors townhall; for the board, everyone attended at least one of the two 11:17
skvidal to be fair 11:18
spoleeba mdomsch, you could make attendance a requirement to be on the ballot 11:18
mdomsch that was a challenge - the global diversity of timezones of the candidates 11:18
quaid well, for things that matter, I've been on confcalls etc. early in the morning. 11:18
skvidal most of the hot topics for fedora are really only issues for folks who don't already realize that legal "resolves" a number of our "controversies" 11:18
quaid but there are work schedules and such we cannot work around. 11:18
stickster Non-attendance would have a natural effect on voting in the same way as it would in an election for public office, I think. People will support a candidate in part based on that candidate's willingness to show up and voice views 11:19
stickster But in part if the voter supports a candidate regardless, it may not matter 11:19
ctyler timezone: a good test of a candidate's negotiating skills, then :-) 11:19
spoleeba stickster, once you have my vote...i really dont want to be bothered having to hear you talk to me any more 11:19
stickster "And please stop calling my house with your recorded messages." 11:20
spevack next question, whenever you want it. vwbusguy asks about what is being done to improve and modify our testing procedures, referencing packagekit/dbus problem but also a new kernel that broke sound for many users as two recent examples of things not being properly tested before they are pushed out. 11:20
quaid although I really liked the idea and execution of the townhall IRC meetings, and agree that questions in advance is a good idea, I wonder if we want to invite list-based discussions on e.g. f-advisory-board 11:20
spoleeba so this is the first time we did it.. if the biggest problems were lack of contraversy and underattendance...i think solving the attendance problem and getting more questions in..will solve the lack of contraversy problem 11:21
f13 spevack: I can take that question 11:21
f13 spevack: vwbusguy- couple things. 1) the kernel breaking intel audio was known, but pushed anyway as it fixed a lot more than it broke, according to the kernel folks, and they expected a fix for the intel folks soon. 11:21
f13 spevack: vwbusguy-: 2) I have a fudcon talk planned and hackfest on getting some dirt simple reactive testing in place, that should catch some of this, but mostly it would be package repo consistancy level testing, as opposed to software functionality testing. 11:22
f13 spevack: vwbusguy-: There is another fudcon talk planned regarding the status and future of Fedora QA/Testing that dwelves into some software that is being worked on and some strategies. 11:23
* quaid notes that more than just knowing the answers, f13 was specifically tasked by the Board with this whole ball of wax after the DBus problems 11:23
f13 A big F11 goal is to improve in meaningful ways to maintainers/users the testing we do. 11:23
stickster We should make a point of recording that particular session at BarCamp if at all possible 11:23
f13 stickster: both of them. 11:23
stickster f13: Right, I'm obviously on a delay 11:24
quaid ctyler: side note, good first-thing FUDCon activity for vid cameras is to pick the must-have sessions 11:24
ctyler stickster: will make a point of that 11:24
spevack f13: pingou_laptop asks if in cases where an update with known breakage is pushed for other valid reasons, if the breakages could be known so that (for example) people with that sound card could know to skip the update. is there any mechanism for that sort of notification? 11:24
ctyler quaid: I'm still hopeful that we can cover most/all of the sessions 11:24
* stickster should also point out that the particulars of the PK/DBus problem might not have been caught by an automated testing system 11:25
skvidal spevack: not sure how we would do that 11:25
stickster There will always be room for human error as long as we want our maintainers to have any degree of flexibility greater than zero. 11:25
skvidal we don't have a way to tell users anything 11:25
stickster The objective is to minimize it. 11:25
spevack skvidal: caillon noted that it could simply go into the update text, perhaps? 11:25
quaid skvidal: announce-list? 11:25
notting all we have is update metadata, and you can't really expose hardware-specific things there 11:26
notting fyi: is this a board level issue? or is this fesco & sigs? 11:26
skvidal quaid: haha, right 11:26
quaid skvidal: srsly 11:26
spoleeba f13, the dbus update would not have been caught at the repo consistency level i dont think.. it was an api break now a depchain break 11:26
spoleeba f13, now/not 11:26
f13 spevack: pingou_laptop: extra notes in the bodhi update would be one place to add that info 11:26
f13 spoleeba: that's why I mentioned the difference between consistency and functional testing 11:27
stickster quaid: There's a huge gap in the subscriptions to fedora-announce-list. Because we can't ensure users see information there, it's not a good enough way of sending notices to the overall public. 11:27
spoleeba f13, you know what would be super-keen... tieing that sort of thing to smolt as an optional service 11:27
quaid stickster: maybe *that* is a Board issue 11:27
f13 spoleeba: consistency testing is relatively easy to accomplish with today's tools and I feel we could have valuable testing going in a matter of days or weeks, whereas functional testing is much harder to get going. 11:27
quaid announce list is so low traffic, we really really really need people who use Fedora to be on it 11:27
spoleeba f13, if you sign up for smolt...then known breakage that affects your system will earn you an extra special notification 11:27
f13 spoleeba: smolt is certainly on the design boards and thoughts for the future. 11:27
notting gate it to rss, include a live bookmark in the default ff package? 11:27
stickster quaid: How do we force them to sign up for it? 11:28
quaid stickster: not force, advertise and market 11:28
quaid stickster: also, if we use the channel for comms 11:28
f13 we need to do more with rss feeding 11:28
f13 and adding them to ff 11:28
stickster We already market it directly to fedora-list, Fedora Forum, etc. 11:28
quaid stickster: and people complain about not knowing stuff on e.g. f-list, then we remind them to join the announce list 11:28
spoleeba notting, client side ticker feed by default on the desktop would be a good way to tell users that it exists 11:28
f13 although FF rss reading is /terrible/ 11:28
f13 I wonder if we can pre-add it to liferea? 11:29
quaid +1 11:29
quaid or a default "Fedora notice" desktop applet that pulls in the RSS for just announce-list 11:29
notting f13: but FF is a whole lot more likely to be used by default than liferea, or <kde equivalent>, or google reader, or... 11:29
quaid "You've got a message from Fedora" 11:29
stickster I think having an announcement feed as a default in all RSS products we carry might be worthwhile 11:29
ctyler rss panel applet? 11:29
stickster That's a singular deviation from upstream that might be worthwhile. 11:30
f13 notting: sure, we just dont' have to stop with FF 11:30
spot hey, lets add RSS to packagekit 11:30
spot *ducks* 11:30
f13 this is a great idea, who can we assign this to? (: 11:30
* spevack throws rotten fruit at spot 11:30
skvidal so our server users don't deserve to get notices like this? 11:31
notting bodhi already does rss of the updateinfo, right? 11:31
mdomsch mugshot? :-) 11:31
f13 notting: yes 11:31
notting skvidal: i'm sure there's a text mode rss reader somewheree 11:31
f13 skvidal: server users should be reading email (: 11:31
skvidal f13: to be fair 11:31
f13 notting: ish, the bodhi feed isn't entirely complete as the emails 11:31
skvidal server users aren't using fedora 11:31
skvidal  :) 11:31
stickster skvidal, *: Maybe what we need, to start with, is a survey that helps us understand the breadth of the problem among groups like users, developers, and admins. 11:31
skvidal stickster: haha 11:32
stickster skvidal: We'll announce the survey on fedora-announce-list 11:32
f13 oops 11:32
skvidal stickster: like I said, ha ha 11:32
spot </nelson> 11:33
spevack Ok, moving on? 11:33
stickster Is there something actionable we can take from this? 11:33
stickster Users clearly need more information than they're getting. 11:33
stickster We can take this to FAB for exploration 11:33
ctyler Sounds good. 11:34
skvidal stickster: OR 11:34
f13 yeah, I think this is something that we should turn over to the userbase at large 11:34
skvidal users need less breakage than they're getting 11:34
f13 skvidal: I think thats an "and" rather than an "or" 11:34
stickster skvidal: essentially though, it's both 11:34
stickster f13: +1 11:34
stickster Move on? 11:35
ctyler q++ 11:36
spevack nirik asks when we will see more disclosure regarding The Incident from last year? 11:36
spevack (captializations are my flourish) 11:36
skvidal spevack: you could capitalize all the letters 11:36
* skvidal looks at stickster 11:36
stickster nirik: I hope I will be able to do this soon -- probably not by or at FUDCon 11:36
spot i would say "soon", but i might get hit with more fruit 11:36
stickster spot: No worries, I did it for you. 11:36
skvidal spot: or wors 11:37
spoleeba encourage smolt usage...magically tie known breakage to affected hardware in smolt...inform clients with smolt UUIDs that their system is affected by known breakage in the update..allow users to choose to hold back the update based on local policy needs 11:37
spoleeba crap lagging 11:37
spot i can assure that neither stickster nor me has forgotten this 11:37
spot we are making daily efforts to bring things to their proper and visible conclusion 11:37
spoleeba spot, will there be a press conference-like opportunity to take questions at the time of disclosure? 11:37
stickster It was one of the last things I worked on before I went on holiday break, and one of the first things I was working on when I came back. 11:37
spot spoleeba: i'm going to go out on a limb and say yes. 11:38
spot if not a formalized one, definitely through something like lwn 11:38
notting note: *take* questions. not necessarily answer them. *ducks* 11:38
quaid "that 11:38
ctyler spot, stickster: the total silence is making it appear like it's fallen off the plate, maybe a "we haven't forgotten" planet post? 11:38
stickster We can't expect to do a disclosure and expect no feedback. 11:38
quaid "that's a very good question. it reminds me of the time ..." 11:38
spoleeba spot, i want a formal one...on irc...with a transscript 11:39
skvidal ctyler: "we're not dead, yet" 11:39
stickster ctyler: This should suffice, since LWN tends to attend and cover our meetings 11:39
spevack stickster: can you confirm that everything you have permission to release has been released? In other words, that you are not sitting on any info that is allowed to be public. (I created this question from reading the chatter in -public) 11:39
spoleeba spot, becacuse quite frankly...i do not trust laypress editorializing 11:39
quaid stickster: or invite LWN specifically to that meeting 11:39
stickster ctyler: I think announcements that say "We have nothing to announce yet" are worthless. 11:39
spot i can confirm that, spevack. 11:39
spot we are not sitting on anything we have permission to release. 11:39
ctyler stickster: Yes, but "it's not dead" has value. 11:40
ctyler a *lot* of value, sometimes 11:40
spoleeba spot, i want a formal press opportunity..with a transscript..where everyone who is going to write about it..gets a chance to direct ask and have their questions not answered 11:40
spot spoleeba: i'm not opposed to that. ;) 11:40
quaid stickster: to be honest, I agree; I just caught up on the f-ambassadors-l thread where you responded with reasonable information, and that was a month ago; it would have been OK to have bounced that same info as a blog post or something. 11:41
spoleeba spot, and if laypress dotn show up to that..and then editorialize about going to be there..and im going to tear their heartless heart out 11:41
spot heck, stickster is ex-gov. He's good at it. :) 11:41
quaid people specifically asked along the way for 'nothing new, not forgotten' updates. 11:41
f13 spoleeba: going back to QA efforts. My goal with F11 is to stop dreaming about what we /could/ do in a grand future with perfect tools, and instead concentrate on what we can accomplish /now/ with the tools we have /now/. We've spent too much time dreaming and trying to create this great wonderful thing and in the mean time failures are slipping through the cracks that we could easily catch 11:42
spevack Sonar_Guy notes that along with The Incident, there was discussion about creating a security response plan for if/when there is a next time. Where are we with that? 11:43
stickster Sonar_Guy: Good question, mmcgrath and I are meeting at FUDCon (with any other interested parties) to talk about this very subject. 11:43
stickster We want to prepare a communications plan that sets out reasonable expectations and timeline so that people know what to expect, and when. 11:43
stickster And to the maximum possible extent, will make disclosures to the community as early as possible, along the whole process. 11:44
skvidal stickster: you sure nothing could come out about The Incident before friday? 11:45
skvidal stickster: it would make a nice icebreaker for fudcon 11:45
skvidal and it would mean I wouldn't have to remember what we can't say 11:45
skvidal which is a plus b/c my muddled mind has been slowly losing containment on which things fall into which box, So I default to not saying ANYTHING which just sucks 11:45
stickster It does suck, and I'm incredibly sensitive to the fact that Fedora people have been put in a situation where they can't be fully open and transparent to our community. 11:46
stickster I think the whole community needs to understand that the very few Fedora people who have substantial knowledge about The Incident are not being quiet because they want to. 11:48
spevack i'm putting out one last call for questions/follow ups in -public 11:48
* spevack likes how others are capitalizing it now :) 11:48
spoleeba skvidal, oh man...i can just imagine the contorted look on your face at fudcon when you try to mentally parse if you can say something 11:48
spoleeba skvidal, and then the sad clown face at the end of the process when you give up 11:49
stickster spoleeba: It will look much the same as when I offer him a bite of my hamburger 11:49
spevack viking_ice reaffirms his belief that any info (even if the info is no new info) is better than silence. 11:49
ctyler +1 11:49
f13 there are two camps to that 11:49
f13 on the one side, saying "we haven't forgotten this, but we still can't tell you anything" does help people know that we haven't forgotten it 11:50
f13 on the other side it's continual invitiations to flame and rant and whatever 11:50
stickster And then there's the inevitable follow up questions that prompts. When one can't answer those either, has the announcement really been anything other than a red herring? 11:50
ctyler "Comments on this post are closed" 11:50
stickster It's simply not appropriate to comment further until there's something substantial to tell people. 11:51
f13 I agree there is value to letting people know we haven't forgotten, but that has to be balanced with how often we poke people in the eye with "ha ha we still can't tell you!" 11:51
stickster And I have every intention of doing that, as I pointed out in the last announcement we made. 11:51
stickster ^^ my last comment was in response to myself, not f13 11:51
stickster spevack: Are there any other questions waiting? 11:54
spevack viking_ice asks what is in place for people who can't be at FUDCon to participate in some sessions. 11:54
stickster ctyler: Take it away! 11:54
ctyler We're audiocasting one stream and video-recording as many as possible for later posting on the web. 11:54
ctyler Where "as many as possible" == 3, maybe 4 right now, more if we get extra camcorders 11:55
ctyler Watch the planet for audio stream info. 11:55
ctyler (All this applies to the Saturday sessions) 11:56
stickster I think ctyler also put a call out for anyone else willing to bring a camcorder for recording purposes, yes? 11:57
ctyler yes, x2 11:57
quaid do you want more audio capability? 11:58
spevack there are no other questions in -public, FWIW 11:58
ctyler quaid: We thought we'd start small, better to stream one well than go too big and fall flat 11:58
quaid ctyler: not streaming, capture 11:59
quaid agreed on the size of the bite we are taking this time 11:59
spoleeba quaid, thats a microphone investment still i think 11:59
f13 a nibble is better than naught 11:59
ctyler quaid: my own personality is to want to do things well -- too well. Looking at mdomsch's OLS videos made me realize that a camcorder can do an adequate capture of a session 12:00
spoleeba quaid, once you know that your equipment works as can duplicate the purchase and record more next time 12:00
* mdomsch resembles adequate :-) 12:00
ctyler I was planning too complicated until I realized that Matt had done a great job with a single device :-) 12:01
quaid actually, i agree about camcorder audio, just don't tell Colby that :D 12:01
mdomsch to be fair, at OLS, the speakers are mic'd 12:01
ctyler True that 12:01
mdomsch if the classrooms we're in have mics, that'd be way cool 12:02
mdomsch somehow I doubt it though 12:02
stickster mdomsch: I don't think they do, judging by the site info, which has been very complete in other respects 12:02
ctyler I don't think they're big enough to warrant it, looking at the photos 12:02
stickster I could envision spending actual funds on audio capture equipment and including that with anything we ship to support future Fedora events 12:02
spoleeba stickster, "actual" funds 12:02
quaid stickster: I expect e.g. NA Ambassadors will take some lessons from this weekend and work that in to budget in the future 12:03
ctyler basic wireless lavs are cheap these days, if we had budget to do some at some point that would be awesome 12:03
stickster So along with the schwag we box up a mic in an appropriate container to record the event 12:03
stickster (or mics) 12:03
ctyler perfect 12:03
quaid yep, that's the Event_Box 12:03
* spevack can find the budget, if we can believe that things will be cared for. but we have to take that chance, of course. trust in the people who have the event box 12:03
spoleeba spevack, can you put a depreciation timescale into that you can expect to need a replacement box in say 2 years? 12:04
spoleeba spevack, or 10..or something 12:04
spevack sure, whatever 12:04
spevack so, who owns figuring out what we need to buy? 12:05
* spevack only owns paying for it :) 12:05
quaid Ambassadors 12:05
spevack ok i'll take it to Ambassadors list 12:06
stickster spevack: quaid: ctyler: I would recommend that in addition to any lavs we also think about a powered room-type condenser mic 12:07
spoleeba stickster, for questions? 12:07
spevack also, i'd like a pony 12:07
stickster And a jetski. 12:07
mdomsch the parabolic laser mics are too expensive? :-) 12:07
stickster OK, weeds. 12:07
ctyler pony on a jetski 12:07
spoleeba stickster, bah... snowmachine 12:07
stickster spevack: Any other issues left? 12:07
spevack nope 12:08
stickster All right, let's call this one unless there's an objection 12:08
ctyler -1 objection, +1 wrap 12:08
spoleeba please...end this meeting..end my obligation to be at these meetings 12:08
spevack spoleeba: watch your words or you'll "volunteer" to be the moderator 12:08
mdomsch spoleeba missed stickster's thanks at the start of the meeting 12:09
spoleeba mdomsch, bah 12:09
mdomsch "you are dismissed, with the thanks of the court" 12:09
stickster spoleeba: You'll receive the roses later :-) 12:09
spoleeba stickster, humbug 12:09
mdomsch your check for $1.32 will be sent to your employer to cover lost wages 12:09
stickster "This moment of silence has been duly noted and deducted from your pay." 12:10
stickster Thanks, everyone, for coming and for your participation! 12:10
* quaid +1 wrap 12:10
stickster Thanks to all the community members for their questions too 12:10
stickster spevack: Fine job moderating as always, thanks 12:11
spevack my pleasure 12:11
spevack peaceout 12:11
spoleeba mdomsch, and the cost of the stamp will be deducted...of course 12:11


spevack inode0: i will ask it 11:02
inode0 What are the thoughts about the effectiveness of the townhall meetings now that some time has passed to reflect on them? 11:02
inode0 hard to complain about that answer :) 11:11
spevack are there any other questions for the Fedora board? 11:11
* inode0 meant all of them but any thoughts about them are welcome 11:12
jjmcd New F11 feature - IRC rotten fruit 11:12
spevack jjmcd: ? 11:12
pingou_laptop <spot> people have yet to discover a way to pelt me with rotten fruit in our online meetings. 11:12
spevack any questions.... about anything related to Fedora? 11:13
* nirik will ask the obvious one again 11:13
nirik any new news on the breakin? ;) 11:14
spevack nirik: added to the queue :) 11:14
* spevack should just ask that one by default first each month 11:14
* inode0 notes that lack of attendance by candidates was an issue for him ... not just the audience 11:15
spevack you mean that some candidates did not attend? 11:15
caillon spevack, make the question sound more exasperated each time though 11:16
spevack caillon: ok :) 11:16
inode0 yes, making it hard to compare them with the ones who did attend 11:16
vwbusguy- I have concerns with what we are doing for testing 11:16
vwbusguy- the dbus / packagekit thing was one issue 11:17
inode0 maybe I should just say that it seemed to weigh in favor of candidates who did attend for those not real familiar with everyone to begin with 11:17
vwbusguy- but a new kernel that takes out sound for a large user base just happened too 11:17
vwbusguy- Are any measures being taken to revise the way we test things before they are deployed? 11:17
Southern_Gentlem <spoleeba> " a white house press core with balls enough to stick the verbal knife in and twist" nominates spoleeba for that position 11:17
spevack vwbusguy-: good question. 11:18
spevack i'll ask it 11:18
EvilBob I liked the town hall sessions that I attended, I found them quite helpful. 11:18
viking_ice This has been discussed a bit on the QA channel.. 11:19
Southern_Gentlem vwbusguy-, links to bugzilla help as well 11:20
vwbusguy- sure, I'll just put a query up showing my CC list, haha 11:21
quaid Southern_Gentlem: oh, that's one of the reasons Jef and I are happily off the Board, now we can go back to being iconoclasts 11:21
spevack nirik: your question is next 11:21
quaid "I'm a divider, not a healer." 11:21
pingou_laptop in reaction to f13 sentence, could the users be warned in such case ? 11:23
pingou_laptop so that people with those sound card would only update if they want 11:23
caillon it should have been part of the update text. was it not? 11:24
caillon then again, most people won't read update text for everything they install. 11:25
pingou_laptop that's one and the other is that you have that text when you are updating... 11:25
inode0 please no popups :) 11:25
pingou_laptop so too late :/ 11:25
vwbusguy- perhaps have a sign off on some common hardware fo rupdates 11:26
vwbusguy- we collect smolt profiles 11:26
caillon pingou_laptop, if you use packagekit, it will have the text there if you click on the individual update. 11:26
vwbusguy- do we use them? 11:26
jjmcd Perhaps there needs to be a separate admon/warning text 11:26
pingou_laptop maybe I should try pk then ^^ 11:26
inode0 can introduction of breakage go into the release notes which can easily be read before updating? 11:26
jjmcd caillon: When you have three dozen updates how many of those do you read 11:26
caillon jjmcd, i honestly do read them all. 11:27
spevack Any other followup questions on this particular topic? 11:27
jjmcd But if there was one place to look for uh-oh's 11:27
vwbusguy- maybe have something as obvious as the Ubuntu + firefox EULA thing, haha 11:27
caillon vwbusguy-, you mean the fedora thing. 11:28
pingou_laptop spevack, just, somewhere is better than nowhere (related to the announce ml) 11:28
vwbusguy- caillon, just meant in the way it was meant to grab users intentions... nvm, not a discussion I want to get into here 11:28
vwbusguy- *attention 11:28
Southern_Gentlem why not put that issue in the changelogs of the kernel and send a message on fedora -aanounce 11:29
SMParrish tell f13 I can add the feed to liferea since I'm the package maintainer 11:29
pingou_laptop +1 11:29
caillon vwbusguy-, i know exactly what you're talking about. it's the thing that I personally worked with Mozilla on for months. 11:29
caillon vwbusguy-, you were simply assigning the credit to the wrong place. that's all i was commenting on. 11:30
viking_ice packagekit needs to be able to revert to the older version ( rpm -Uhv --oldpackage ) then users could just simply revert if the *new* package breaks things for them.. 11:30
quaid inode0: did you see mizmo's latest post about all the chatty desktop :) 11:30
EvilBob stickster: default = -1 11:30
inode0 quaid: yes and it scared me :) 11:30
quaid inode0: we don't have a release notes that rolls with updates though 11:30
inode0 quaid: sorry, I meant the changelog 11:31
quaid jjmcd: there could be a wiki page, but again, how do we tell people about it 11:31
quaid inode0: ah, yes 11:31
quaid caillon++ on the Fedora thing, btw :) 11:31
jjmcd Trouble is, one person's wheat is another's chaff 11:32
caillon quaid :) 11:32
vwbusguy- unfortunately wiki is not a good method 11:32
Southern_Gentlem viking_ice, in the case of the kernel you should have the old kernel anyways 11:32
skvidal viking_ice: reverting is A LOT more troublesome than you think 11:32
inode0 if people care they should already read the changelog I would think 11:32
vwbusguy- If users checked ?Bugs/Common we'd have a lot less of them in #Fedora 11:32
vwbusguy- */Bugs 11:32
quaid vwbusguy-: that's true 11:33
vwbusguy- quaid, what about sending out errata, like in RHEL systems 11:33
viking_ice skvidal: depends on what you are reverting :) 11:34
skvidal viking_ice: which is, of course, the problem 11:34
* EvilBob reverts viking_ice 11:34
quaid vwbusguy-: we do, it's called 'package-announce' and it's freaking full of messages 11:34
* viking_ice rev back 11:34
quaid vwbusguy-: but you mean, like RHN which knows what you have installed? 11:35
EvilBob package-announce is worthless 11:35
skvidal quaid: which we can't do for privacy reasons 11:35
quaid vwbusguy-: what we don't have is such a creature, although we potentially could 11:35
quaid skvidal: well, if people subscribed, etc. 11:35
vwbusguy- quaid, yes, but then again you aren't going to have nearly as many updates pushed in RHEL either 11:35
jjmcd but giving users granular control over an RSS feed might do the trick 11:35
skvidal quaid: and we'd need infrastructure to handle all those users going to a common place 11:35
skvidal quaid: which we do NOT have 11:35
skvidal to be fair the yum-security plugin can help with a lot of this 11:36
quaid nope, that would be a big initiative 11:36
skvidal it can give the user the info about updates they want 11:36
jds2001 spevack: no, it's The Incident(TM) :) 11:36
vwbusguy- two things about smolt - if we could interface with smolt to get messages out specific to hardware setups that would be great. But why don't we look at common hardware setups in smolt and test to those hardware setups? 11:36
quaid skvidal: when you get a chance 11:36
* pingou_laptop send rotten fruit to spot 11:37
spevack jds2001: right 11:37
spevack  :) 11:37
nirik spevack: thanks for the florishes. ;) 11:37
* quaid shoots Mailman for the message formatting on that page, *ick* 11:37
* jds2001 hurls rotten fruit at stickster and spot 11:37
nirik soon is good, of course now would be better, but hey. ;) 11:37
viking_ice Last time I heard sticksters is just sitting on that info.. 11:37
Sonar_Guy also along with nirik question has a security plan been drafted as was discussed in the mailing list discussion 11:38
pingou_laptop and did the signature process changed ? 11:39
spevack pingou_laptop: what do you mean? 11:40
spevack any follow ups or new questions? 11:41
pingou_laptop IIRC the workflow to change the package was supposed to be changed, did it happen already ? (I might remember wrongly) 11:41
spevack is this in reference to the testing topic, or the security incident topic? 11:42
skvidal security incident topic, I think 11:42
Sonar_Guy spevack: along with the incident there was discussion of creating a security plan, what has happened with that? 11:42
Sonar_Guy stickster: wish I could be there but alas work does not currently permit the current schedule. 11:44
spevack stickster: i would be interested in participating in that session 11:45
* nirik would also like to attend, time permitting. 11:45
viking_ice hum so RH is not permitting.. Anyway leaving people in the dark is ( certainly for this long time ) is not the way to go.... 11:45
* quaid will try to be there, too 11:45
* pingou_laptop wishes he could.. 11:46
quaid viking_ice: unless it *is* the way to got ... 11:46
ianweller what is The Incident they're referring to? :/ 11:46
spevack pingou_laptop: if they can figure out a way for me to paticipate as a remotee, they can figure out way for you to also :) 11:46
nirik viking_ice: you do realize that fedora people are trying as hard as they can to release info, but this is all legal stuff, so it has to be approved by lawyers. 11:46
quaid viking_ice: the problem is, when you have something that could cross in to legal/law enforcement grounds 11:46
* vwbusguy- reserves his verdict until we have 'official' information 11:46
quaid viking_ice: you *have* to trust the incident response team 11:46
ianweller is this new today? 11:47
jjmcd ianweller: Hardly 11:47
spevack ianweller: we're talking about the thing from august or september, whenever it was 11:47
ianweller spevack: oh. ok 11:47
spevack thus the capitalizations :) 11:47
pingou_laptop spevack, would be great ! 11:47
ianweller i called it the Great Catastrophe of August 11:47
ianweller  ;) 11:47
EvilBob "The Incident" 11:48
ianweller good thing nothing bad happened today though, i guess! 11:48
EvilBob coming to a theater near you 11:48
spevack ianweller: your glass is half full, sir 11:48
spevack any other questions for the board? 11:48
viking_ice any info is better then no info ( some progress reports for example from the Team incident ) 11:48
* mmcgrath wonders if anyone else was asked about the break during christmas from friends and family. 11:49
EvilBob mmcgrath: I was 11:50
spevack mmcgrath: i'm still trying to get my family past "so wait, they pay you to work on something that you give away for free" 11:50
mmcgrath heh 11:50
ianweller spevack: hey, same here! 11:50
ianweller er 11:50
pingou_laptop spevack, g'd luck with that ! 11:50
ianweller mmcgrath: ^^ 11:50
ianweller  ;) 11:50
pingou_laptop I am to 11:50
ianweller er, yeah, actually, towards spevack. god i'm confused 11:50
spevack ianweller: i'm happy to have another chat with your dad if necessary :) 11:51
skvidal spevack: hahahaha 11:51
ianweller spevack: no, they're cool with it. ;) 11:51
spevack i know! 11:51
ianweller something to keep me out of trouble! 11:52
lmacken maybe we should have an Incident roundtable discussion at FUDCon to talk about policies/procedures/infrastructure that has come out of it, along with other ways to handle this situation better in the future ? 11:52
pingou_laptop isn't it already planned ? 11:52
skvidal pingou_laptop: it is 11:52
* lmacken hasn't checked the schedule in a while 11:52
lmacken good 11:52
pingou_laptop  :) 11:53
quaid lmacken: yep, stickster mentioned it and invited all interested 11:53
lmacken good good.. it'll give me a chance to talk about the new IDS that is in the works :) 11:53
viking_ice will there be live streaming from fudcon so fedorians that are unable to attend might be able to do so via irc channel ? 11:53
viking_ice and participate.. 11:54
ianweller they're working on live audio streaming... i dunno about video 11:54
ianweller i haven't been following too closely 11:54
spevack you're about to get your answer ianweller 11:54
pingou_laptop could those info be grouped somewhere ? wiki/blog/announce ml ? 11:55
jds2001 already on the wiki on the main fudcon page 11:56
pingou_laptop ok 11:56
jds2001 if you have a camcorder and can bring it, please do! 11:56
viking_ice Cant some money be spent in "conference" HW gear that could be used on fedora conferences world wide 11:56
jds2001 ambassadors budget is fairly tight 11:57
spevack viking_ice: we could look into it 11:57
jds2001 we tried some things for Q4 but it was denied, iirc - spevack would know more than I :) 11:57
ianweller ctyler: if i don't get around to posting a streaming link in #fudcon's /topic, i hope that you can :) 11:57
spevack viking_ice: i have no idea what that sort of stuff costs 11:57
spevack jds2001: we might want to revisit that in 3 weeks, since we'll be closer to the end of the quarter and if there's money leftover, we should spend it 11:57
ctyler ianweller: will do 11:58
EvilBob If people steal banners and other stuff (IIRC this happened in the past), you think they will not think twice about a camera? 11:58
spevack EvilBob: as long as the camera isn't fedora branded :) 11:58
EvilBob lol 11:58
quaid EvilBob: bingo, that's a key problem for any hardware 11:58
quaid we need people to hold it tight all day, etc. 11:59
Fingaz have you tried to see if the people you are renting the space from for the conference has cameras that can be used as part of the event? 11:59
EvilBob we all have felt safe leaving our laptops laying around at Fudcons I think, but community hardware... Idunno. 11:59
viking_ice EvilBob: one would think the people that are responsible for using the HW ( recording/mixing ) would keep and eye on it.. 11:59
viking_ice +this is something that needs to be light since it would travel from conference to conference.. 12:00
Fingaz typically hotels will have that kind of equipment around. Maybe not a lot of it but some 12:00
jds2001 Fingaz: we're at MIT, a university 12:01
jds2001 not a hotel or anything. 12:01
quaid Fingaz: yes, we talked with e.g. MIT groups, no bites, or anything we could afford 12:02
EvilBob Thanks to the Board for the public meeting. 12:02
Fingaz haha just point your webcam at them and start recording. man that would suck 12:02
quaid heh, herlo did that last time, it was better than nothing 12:03
inode0 spevack: I'll add this to the agenda tonight and try to get herlo to volunteer :) 12:06
spevack inode0: perfect 12:06
spevack inode0: let's spend the money in q4 12:06
spevack we'll add it to what i already allocated for you guys 12:06
inode0 ok 12:06
quaid yeah, that was what I was leaning toward; we'd learn stuff this weekend with herlo, then he can take the action back to FAMnA 12:07
viking_ice Hum perhaps Fedora Camera crew that follows the equipment where ever it goes.. 12:07
quaid viking_ice: we tried that, but RHT won't fund e.g. Colby Hoke for Fedora full time :. 12:07
viking_ice the knowledge on how to setup and use atleast needs to be spread around.. 12:07
jds2001 you paying the salray and travel? :) 12:07
quaid that's true; should be in a binder that travels with the equipment. 12:08
jds2001 and Colby could write that, best practices, etc. 12:08
jds2001 which btw, what's Colby bringing of RHT's, since he's in the van from RDU? 12:09
viking_ice Basically you need a head guy that come with the equipment hooks it up and uses then volunteers to film the stuff.. 12:09
viking_ice running around with mic and so fourth.. 12:09
viking_ice And this actually is a full time job.. 12:09
jds2001 viking_ice: this person must be paid. 12:09
jds2001 viking_ice: and travel. Are you willing to foot the bill? We'd gladly take it :) 12:10
viking_ice wont women and booze suffice ;) 12:10
spevack thanks for your time, all. 12:10
spevack the official part of this meeting is over :) 12:10

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