From Fedora Project Wiki
| stickster | <meeting> | 23 Jul 15:01 |
|---|---|---|
| stickster | Roll call! | 23 Jul 15:01 |
| Sparks | here! | 23 Jul 15:02 |
| stickster | Sparks: Well heck, it could be just you and me for a little bit. | 23 Jul 15:02 |
| stickster | quaid will be back here by about UTC 1915. | 23 Jul 15:02 |
| stickster | Sparks: I'll start off with something not on the agenda | 23 Jul 15:03 |
| --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - DocsProject/Meetings - (non-agenda) Features | 23 Jul 15:03 | |
| stickster | Sparks: IIRC, I got you together with poelcat for some work on Feature pages | 23 Jul 15:03 |
| stickster | Have you looked at the revamping that we did to the policy stuff? Features/Policy | 23 Jul 15:04 |
| Sparks | I have not. | 23 Jul 15:04 |
| Sparks | I've been on travel last week and this week and I don't foresee coming up for air until later this weekend. | 23 Jul 15:05 |
| stickster | Oh wow! | 23 Jul 15:05 |
| stickster | Yet you're here anyway -- thanks and sorry | 23 Jul 15:05 |
| stickster | I forgot it was two weeks! | 23 Jul 15:05 |
| ianweller_afk | 23 Jul 15:05 | |
| * ianweller_afk is floating around the channel and might be here or not | 23 Jul 15:05 | |
| Sparks | Yeah... Been to DC and to Florida | 23 Jul 15:05 |
| * stickster ducks the floating head of ianweller_afk | 23 Jul 15:05 | |
| ianweller_afk | wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee | 23 Jul 15:05 |
| ianweller_maybea | -darn | 23 Jul 15:06 |
| stickster | Sparks: Well, there's a further refinement to the policy that John will be pushing through FESCo this week | 23 Jul 15:06 |
| stickster | It changes the way the queue works | 23 Jul 15:06 |
| Sparks | Interesting. | 23 Jul 15:06 |
| stickster | Hopefully the result means a less confusing process for everyone | 23 Jul 15:06 |
| Sparks | 23 Jul 15:06 | |
| * Sparks needs to read up on this | 23 Jul 15:06 | |
| stickster | Sparks: Let me see if I can find you a URL | 23 Jul 15:07 |
| stickster | Sparks: Hm, just hit me up after this, I'll look later | 23 Jul 15:08 |
| stickster | Sparks: Anyway, I'm assuming you're still planning on helping John with some of this work | 23 Jul 15:08 |
| Sparks | ok | 23 Jul 15:08 |
| Sparks | I am | 23 Jul 15:08 |
| stickster | cool! | 23 Jul 15:08 |
| stickster | that's all, just a FYI | 23 Jul 15:08 |
| --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - DocsProject/Meetings - back on agenda! | 23 Jul 15:09 | |
| --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - DocsProject/Meetings - jds2001 request for boilerplate | 23 Jul 15:09 | |
| stickster | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00040.html | 23 Jul 15:10 |
| stickster | This is a bit silly for me to do this agenda if Sparks is the only one here. | 23 Jul 15:10 |
| Sparks | Probably | 23 Jul 15:11 |
| stickster | It's like me being in a room with one other person, yelling "Is there *anyone* here who will take this action item?" | 23 Jul 15:11 |
| stickster | "*ANYONE?*" | 23 Jul 15:11 |
| Sparks | 23 Jul 15:11 | |
| * Sparks coughs and looks down as if to find something in his bag | 23 Jul 15:11 | |
| stickster | haha | 23 Jul 15:11 |
| ian_maybeafk | -hmm, productive meeting | 23 Jul 15:11 |
| ian_maybeafk | -;) | 23 Jul 15:11 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: Certainly it's fast. | 23 Jul 15:11 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: I don't get it. | 23 Jul 15:11 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: We have the easiest process ever now for getting involved. Everyone complained about DocBook XML. We moved to more wiki. | 23 Jul 15:12 |
| stickster | They complained getting a wiki account was too hard. We took that barrier away. | 23 Jul 15:12 |
| ian_maybeafk | -hmmph | 23 Jul 15:12 |
| ian_maybeafk | -maybe it's the mediawiki syntax | 23 Jul 15:12 |
| ian_maybeafk | -i was going to create a mediawiki syntax cheat-shirt | 23 Jul 15:12 |
| ian_maybeafk | -where all the syntax info is upside down | 23 Jul 15:12 |
| ian_maybeafk | -(so you can read it) | 23 Jul 15:13 |
| stickster | heh | 23 Jul 15:13 |
| ian_maybeafk | -maybe a short training video/screencast would help | 23 Jul 15:13 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: AHA! | 23 Jul 15:14 |
| fugolini | hi | 23 Jul 15:14 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: Now you're talking. | 23 Jul 15:14 |
| ian_maybeafk | -\o/ | 23 Jul 15:14 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: I just happen to be well equipped to make such a screencast. | 23 Jul 15:14 |
| ian_maybeafk | -well well well | 23 Jul 15:14 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: Sounds like I've got something to work on later today | 23 Jul 15:15 |
| ian_maybeafk | -of course, we still haven't decided on a wiki organization schema | 23 Jul 15:15 |
| ian_maybeafk | -which might be an important part of learning docs writing on the wiki | 23 Jul 15:15 |
| stickster | *pffft | 23 Jul 15:15 |
| ian_maybeafk | -i'm assuming at this point there's no way we're ever going to completely flatten the wiki and go to complete categorization. | 23 Jul 15:15 |
| ian_maybeafk | -it seems almost impossible | 23 Jul 15:15 |
| stickster | As long as we have a "move" function, I'm more concerned with getting people to actually participate in the wiki gardening. | 23 Jul 15:15 |
| stickster | (which topic is coming up later.) | 23 Jul 15:15 |
| ian_maybeafk | -oh excellent | 23 Jul 15:16 |
| ian_maybeafk | -:) | 23 Jul 15:16 |
| stickster | So jds2001 asked us for a boilerplate contact letter for FOSS projects -- one written by someone who was entirely focused on positive outreach, so that the person using the boilerplate doesn't have to edit themselves 10 times over to avoid offending the recipient. | 23 Jul 15:16 |
| stickster | s/themselves/himself/ | 23 Jul 15:17 |
| stickster | I'll draft something and make it available for comment and refiling | 23 Jul 15:18 |
| stickster | Release notes status! | 23 Jul 15:18 |
| --- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Docs Project meeting - DocsProject/Meetings - Release Notes status | 23 Jul 15:19 | |
| stickster | Has anyone visited the new hosted project site? | 23 Jul 15:19 |
| stickster | https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes | 23 Jul 15:19 |
| stickster | Hmm, not compelling enough? | 23 Jul 15:20 |
| stickster | We now have the release notes in that repo building successfully with publican. | 23 Jul 15:21 |
| ian_maybeafk | - | 23 Jul 15:21 |
| * ian_maybeafk feels bad leaving stickster in a meeting with himself :< | 23 Jul 15:21 | |
| stickster | There are milestones set up in the Trac repo, but I need help -- mainly asking people to file "tasks" that they see aren't done. | 23 Jul 15:21 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: I think Sparks is still here | 23 Jul 15:22 |
| stickster | Maybe he's still looking for something in his bag. :-) | 23 Jul 15:22 |
| ian_maybeafk | -hehe | 23 Jul 15:22 |
| stickster | quaid is supposed to be back shortly. | 23 Jul 15:22 |
| stickster | Then we can, you know, talk to each other. | 23 Jul 15:22 |
| ian_maybeafk | -hehe | 23 Jul 15:22 |
| ian_maybeafk | - | 23 Jul 15:23 |
| * ian_maybeafk goes to check out the magic in the release-notes git repo | 23 Jul 15:23 | |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: I wrote some intro pages for how to use it -- keeping in mind that Docs people may not understand git | 23 Jul 15:23 |
| ian_maybeafk | -right-o | 23 Jul 15:24 |
| stickster | ian_maybeafk: So it's a cookbook approach. If something there looks really wrong to you, I can get you access so you can fix the wording/commands | 23 Jul 15:24 |
| stickster | https://fedorahosted.org/release-notes/wiki/HowToHelp | 23 Jul 15:24 |
| Sparks | 23 Jul 15:24 | |
| * Sparks is here... Trying to dodge the weather and reply to thousands of email that are still pending. | 23 Jul 15:24 | |
| stickster | hee hee | 23 Jul 15:25 |
| stickster | Anyway, work is progressing steadily. | 23 Jul 15:25 |
| stickster | And with that, we come to quaid's item on wiki gardening status. | 23 Jul 15:26 |
| stickster | I've been doing some of this as I go along -- the Feature process was one such victim. | 23 Jul 15:26 |
| ian_maybeafk | - | 23 Jul 15:26 |
| * ian_maybeafk notes his friend is here, so who knows whether i'll be here or not | 23 Jul 15:26 | |
| stickster | I received an email inside Red Hat from a developer who was having real problems navigating through the tangled morass of PackageMaintainers in the wiki | 23 Jul 15:26 |
| stickster | So it would be good to visit those. | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| quaid | sorry! network problems but we're on now | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| stickster | I think the policy pages we want to stay away from. | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| quaid | hi friends | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| stickster | Hi quaid | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| stickster | It's just you, me, partly Sparks and partly ian_maybeafk | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| quaid | is Package* open enough ACLs? | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| quaid | or do we get added | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| quaid | ok, smooth | 23 Jul 15:27 |
| stickster | quaid: It's Packaging* I think which is locked down a bit | 23 Jul 15:28 |
| stickster | That's where the policy sits, and that's all pretty well written and complete AFAICT. | 23 Jul 15:28 |
| stickster | It's the pages that point in there which are a bit of a mess. | 23 Jul 15:28 |
| stickster | This page? PackageMaintainers | 23 Jul 15:29 |
| stickster | It's confusing. | 23 Jul 15:29 |
| quaid | so just that page | 23 Jul 15:29 |
| stickster | And it may not be the only one for developers of its kind | 23 Jul 15:29 |
| stickster | crap, clauses out of sequence. | 23 Jul 15:29 |
| stickster | And it may not be the only one of its kind for developers | 23 Jul 15:29 |
| * stickster notes that page contains transcludes/templates for each section | 23 Jul 15:30 | |
| quaid | 23 Jul 15:31 | |
| * quaid opens page now that greg is done shoulder surfing | 23 Jul 15:31 | |
| stickster | How can we kick wiki gardening in the ass? | 23 Jul 15:32 |
| stickster | Get people to pitch in? | 23 Jul 15:32 |
| * stickster thinks we need an incentive. | 23 Jul 15:32 | |
| quaid | hmm, incentives | 23 Jul 15:34 |
| quaid | easier? | 23 Jul 15:34 |
| quaid | greg had an idea earlier today ... | 23 Jul 15:34 |
| stickster | No, I mean like: prizes for wiki edits. | 23 Jul 15:34 |
| quaid | use the Special: page that tracks "hasn't been touched in N time" | 23 Jul 15:34 |
| quaid | and put a different, shaded/colored background | 23 Jul 15:34 |
| quaid | and maybe a watermark -- a pink page -- | 23 Jul 15:34 |
| quaid | "if you see a pink page and think it shouldn't be active, then update it, or change it to red so that it needs fixing." | 23 Jul 15:35 |
| quaid | something visuual | 23 Jul 15:35 |
| quaid | and encourage people all over the place, help by hitting up these pages | 23 Jul 15:35 |
| stickster | I think "encourage people all over the place" has been shown at this point to be ineffective. | 23 Jul 15:35 |
| stickster | What if we were to offer a real bounty of some sort for this work? | 23 Jul 15:36 |
| stickster | How could we create and track such a thing, and reduce the chances of gaming the system through things like whitespace fiddling? | 23 Jul 15:36 |
| quaid | well | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | start with the usuals and grow? | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | that is | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | make sure we highlight people who are kicking ass | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | with auto tooling | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | maybe a banner that rotates? | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | then ... | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | 1. recognition | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | 2. ??? | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| quaid | 3. profit! | 23 Jul 15:37 |
| stickster | Hm | 23 Jul 15:38 |
| stickster | Well, I know it should be quite easy to grab the info. | 23 Jul 15:39 |
| quaid | right, there is something already but I forget | 23 Jul 15:39 |
| quaid | lmacken hack of somekined? | 23 Jul 15:39 |
| quaid | I forget | 23 Jul 15:39 |
| stickster | spevack just gave me the tipoff | 23 Jul 15:40 |
| stickster | git://fedorapeople.org/~lmacken/fedora-weekly-metrics | 23 Jul 15:40 |
| lmacken | oh yeah, I've been meaning to add more of those | 23 Jul 15:40 |
| lmacken | that repo only has a couple of basic wiki metrics | 23 Jul 15:41 |
| lmacken | but eventually i'd like to see it have bugzilla, cvs, bodhi, koji, etc | 23 Jul 15:41 |
| quaid | ah, cool | 23 Jul 15:41 |
| spevack | lmacken: i've done nothing to help you so far, either. my apologies | 23 Jul 15:41 |
| lmacken | spevack: it's cool... I've been engulfed in bodhi stuff recently. | 23 Jul 15:42 |
| stickster | lmacken: Don't talk to him. He needs to study. | 23 Jul 15:42 |
| stickster | :-D | 23 Jul 15:42 |
| lmacken | haha | 23 Jul 15:42 |
| spevack | 23 Jul 15:42 | |
| * spevack is "studying" for the rhce | 23 Jul 15:42 | |
| lmacken | 23 Jul 15:42 | |
| * lmacken also started a class at boston college this week too | 23 Jul 15:42 | |
| * stickster says, having just pm'd spevack several times in the last hour | 23 Jul 15:42 | |
| stickster | lmacken: So we were talking about... | 23 Jul 15:42 |
| spevack | 23 Jul 15:42 | |
| * spevack cannot bring himself to care about several topics that are likely to be on the test | 23 Jul 15:42 | |
| stickster | tying this into an incentive somehow, maybe a banner that publicizes people's ass-kicking on the wiki itself | 23 Jul 15:43 |
| stickster | or elsewhere | 23 Jul 15:43 |
| spevack | current top 5: | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| lmacken | neat. I still would like to see us do that gentoo/suse/etc do in their Weekly news -- having a stats section at the bottom | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| spevack | susmit | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| spevack | pcalarco | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| spevack | mspevack | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| spevack | pfrields | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| spevack | nim | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| spevack | IN YOUR FACE, stickster | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| stickster | Bite me spevack | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| lmacken | s/that/what/ | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| lmacken | haha | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| stickster | I'm gonna SO out-wiki you next week. | 23 Jul 15:44 |
| spevack | 23 Jul 15:44 | |
| * spevack will make every dollar added to the fedora budget pages a separate commit | 23 Jul 15:44 | |
| spevack | so, that's $300 for $FOO. +1 (commit) +1 (commit) | 23 Jul 15:45 |
| * stickster sends lmacken to ban spevack from stats | 23 Jul 15:45 | |
| stickster | oops, s/sends/sends patch to/ | 23 Jul 15:45 |
| lmacken | see, it's this kind of friendly coopetition that we are trying to create ;) | 23 Jul 15:45 |
| stickster | That was two commits to the IRC log, can I count that? | 23 Jul 15:45 |
| spevack | 23 Jul 15:46 | |
| * spevack places a watch on all stickster's pages, and removes one of the spaces between each sentence he types every time he commits | 23 Jul 15:46 | |
| stickster | D'OH!!! | 23 Jul 15:46 |
| Sparks | :) | 23 Jul 15:46 |
| spevack | stickster: you called down the thunder! now you've got it! | 23 Jul 15:46 |
| stickster | Two leaders walk in, only one come out. | 23 Jul 15:46 |
| spevack | 23 Jul 15:47 | |
| * spevack recalls the time him and gdk did the giant sumo wrestling suit thing | 23 Jul 15:47 | |
| stickster | lmacken: What's the bot account message mean? | 23 Jul 15:47 |
| spevack | i think i lost. but i think he cheated. | 23 Jul 15:47 |
| spevack | 23 Jul 15:47 | |
| * spevack goes back to studying... sigh | 23 Jul 15:47 | |
| lmacken | stickster: normal user accounts can only get at most 500 results from a given query... we need to run that script using a 'bot' account to get more | 23 Jul 15:48 |
| lmacken | so those stats are not exactly accurate ;) | 23 Jul 15:48 |
| stickster | right, it capped at 500. | 23 Jul 15:49 |
| stickster | quaid: So, what's the next action on this? | 23 Jul 15:50 |
| quaid | 23 Jul 15:50 | |
| * quaid done saying howdy to bryan che | 23 Jul 15:50 | |
| spevack | stickster: did i totally just troll an in-progress meeting? | 23 Jul 15:50 |
| stickster | spevack: You did, well done sir. | 23 Jul 15:50 |
| spevack | for like 5 minutes? | 23 Jul 15:50 |
| quaid | we need a technology owner | 23 Jul 15:50 |
| spevack | 23 Jul 15:50 | |
| * spevack runs in shame | 23 Jul 15:50 | |
| quaid | who can make sure we are gathering and publishing | 23 Jul 15:51 |
| quaid | lmacken: since you are doing this for other stuff | 23 Jul 15:51 |
| quaid | lmacken: do you want to prototype a full feed of stats like this from Docs? | 23 Jul 15:51 |
| quaid | starting with the wiki pull and push to | 23 Jul 15:51 |
| quaid | ... FWN, some page somewhere (fp.org top page?), ... | 23 Jul 15:51 |
| quaid | where else? | 23 Jul 15:51 |
| spevack | stickster: serious question for you: | 23 Jul 15:52 |
| quaid | weekly post to fedorastats.wordpress.com to appear on the planet? | 23 Jul 15:52 |
| spevack | i was planning on including metrics as a beat in Fedor aWeekly News | 23 Jul 15:52 |
| spevack | but I thought it would be best to wait until we had more than jus twiki edits | 23 Jul 15:52 |
| lmacken | quaid: sure, I plan on helping to elaborate the metrics generation stuff. | 23 Jul 15:52 |
| spevack | which is why i haven't done it yet. | 23 Jul 15:52 |
| spevack | should i continue to hold off, or just do it? | 23 Jul 15:52 |
| lmacken | yeah, I think we should wait to have more stats from a few more sources | 23 Jul 15:53 |
| stickster | hmm | 23 Jul 15:54 |
| stickster | spevack: The only thing that makes me reticent is the fact that we keep showing up in the top 10! | 23 Jul 15:54 |
| stickster | spevack: OTOH, we can issue a challenge | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| stickster | Beat the FPLs and get a free ____ | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| stickster | Uh | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| stickster | Maybe I should fill in that blank before someone else does. | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| spevack | :) i tend to agree with lmacken, which is why I've waited. | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| spevack | PONY | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| stickster | Porsche | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| stickster | spevack: All right, but the idea is solid | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| spevack | we totally need to buy a fedora contributor a pony | 23 Jul 15:55 |
| stickster | lmacken: Agreed on the stats | 23 Jul 15:56 |
| stickster | This is sort of a side note to the larger question. Aside from this effort... | 23 Jul 15:56 |
| stickster | quaid: What else can we do? | 23 Jul 15:56 |
| stickster | quaid: Is there a high-level plan for the wiki gardening? | 23 Jul 15:56 |
| stickster | High enough that people know where to start digging now? | 23 Jul 15:57 |
| stickster | But low enough that someone can grok it? | 23 Jul 15:57 |
| stickster | I find DocsProject/WikiGardening | 23 Jul 15:58 |
| stickster | But after the first few subsections, it's not task-oriented enough from the new contributor standpoint. | 23 Jul 15:58 |
| stickster | DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks | 23 Jul 15:59 |
| stickster | That's better! | 23 Jul 15:59 |
| stickster | But how to know how to categorize? | 23 Jul 15:59 |
| stickster | We are almost out of time here. | 23 Jul 15:59 |
| stickster | quaid: Can you take an item to make the Gardening pages clearer from the new-guy perspective? | 23 Jul 16:00 |
| stickster | Simple questions, simple answers | 23 Jul 16:00 |
| stickster | I'm working on a few other Docs things at present :-) | 23 Jul 16:00 |
| stickster | OK, we need to end this meeting I think | 23 Jul 16:01 |
| AndreasR | -stickster: no prob.. go on it seems to be funny | 23 Jul 16:02 |
| AndreasR | -without the pony thing | 23 Jul 16:02 |
| spevack | AndreasR: do you want a pony? | 23 Jul 16:02 |
| stickster | haha | 23 Jul 16:02 |
| stickster | And with that... | 23 Jul 16:03 |
| stickster | </meeting> | 23 Jul 16:03 |
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