| Sparks
| Roll Call!
| Mar 25 20:00
|
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
| Mar 25 20:00
|
| *Sparks is here
| Mar 25 20:00
|
| *jjmcd yo
| Mar 25 20:00
|
| *n9986_ (n=nandeep@59.176.80.223) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 20:00
|
| Sparks
| Where is everyone?
| Mar 25 20:02
|
| *glezos is here
| Mar 25 20:02
|
| glezos
| afk, but pingable
| Mar 25 20:03
|
| *laubersm is here
| Mar 25 20:03
|
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 25 20:07:20 2009
|
| *Now talking on #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 20:07
|
| *Topic for #fedora-meeting is: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings
| Mar 25 20:07
|
| *Topic for #fedora-meeting set by Sparks at Wed Mar 25 19:59:50 2009
| Mar 25 20:07
|
| ke4qqq
| which one?? I only see beta release notes
| Mar 25 20:07
|
| ke4qqq
| and f10 admin something
| Mar 25 20:07
|
| Sparks
| Sorry about that, my computer went stupid.
| Mar 25 20:07
|
| Sparks
| Let's start over again... :)
| Mar 25 20:08
|
| Sparks
| Roll call!
| Mar 25 20:08
|
| *Sparks is here (I think)
| Mar 25 20:08
|
| *ke4qqq is here
| Mar 25 20:08
|
| *jjmcd qrv
| Mar 25 20:09
|
| *laubersm is here
| Mar 25 20:09
|
| *stickster_afk is now known as stickster
| Mar 25 20:09
|
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement
| Mar 25 20:09
|
| *ianweller rolls in
| Mar 25 20:10
|
| Sparks
| Okay, there was a fairly good discussion on f-docs-l about how to author the Beta Announcement...
| Mar 25 20:10
|
| Sparks
| and what should be in it...
| Mar 25 20:10
|
| Sparks
| and how much detail to put into it...
| Mar 25 20:10
|
| *mdomsch (n=mdomsch@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 20:10
|
| Sparks
| and who are target audience is.
| Mar 25 20:10
|
| *ryanlerch (n=rlerch@nat/redhat/x-9e2fb1f14674b40d) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 20:10
|
| Sparks
| Let's see if we can get those questions answered.
| Mar 25 20:11
|
| *stickster shows up late -- sorry
| Mar 25 20:11
|
| Sparks
| Does anyone have any concerns about how the Beta Announcement looks right now in Gobby (or on the wiki)?
| Mar 25 20:11
|
| Sparks
| https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement
| Mar 25 20:12
|
| jjmcd
| last week we talked about three groups of no more than five bullets I see we have added some, I don't have a problem with that but are we all agreeing that more bullets is ok?
| Mar 25 20:12
|
| laubersm
| I like it - though with the way the other discussions are going I wonder about making the link to the Beta Release Notes more prominent
| Mar 25 20:12
|
| *ianweller takes a peek
| Mar 25 20:12
|
| stickster
| The audience for the announcement falls into a couple groups
| Mar 25 20:13
|
| stickster
| 1. community members and users, i.e. most likely testers
| Mar 25 20:13
|
| stickster
| 2. journalists and web aggies
| Mar 25 20:13
|
| *Sparks notes stickster has made a change in Gobby...
| Mar 25 20:13
|
| *stickster changed the kimono thing, which always sounded silly-naughty as opposed to the more neutral car talk version
| Mar 25 20:14
|
| jjmcd
| Kinda borrowed that from Icom's IC7800 announcement
| Mar 25 20:14
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: I don't like being held to an arbitrary standard (three groups of five bullets).
| Mar 25 20:14
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: If we have more to say or less to say then we should just say what we need to say.
| Mar 25 20:15
|
| ke4qqq
| the gcc line doesn't make sense to me.
| Mar 25 20:15
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah, well, that wasn't my recommendation, but I didn't want others to think it was too gangly
| Mar 25 20:15
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: good catch
| Mar 25 20:15
|
| ke4qqq
| there is at least a period missing
| Mar 25 20:16
|
| jjmcd
| Well, that needs more prominence. C++ code is affected by the change
| Mar 25 20:16
|
| jjmcd
| Some existing code will break
| Mar 25 20:16
|
| stickster
| I just sent a bunch of stuff to the wrong channel... I'm such a dweeb.
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| *stickster transcribes
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| stickster
| One other thing that I am still on the fence about is the call-out of the Linux Format cover blurb.
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| stickster
| The whole blurb, for those who haven't seen it, was "Fedora 10 kicks Ubuntu's ass."
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| stickster
| Whether or not you tend to agree, I think calling that particular blurb out is skirting a troubled line.
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| stickster
| We don't need to make someone else look worse for us to look good, I think.
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| jjmcd
| We took out Ubuntu
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| ke4qqq
| so utilizes doesn't carry the notion that it's been upgraded.
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| jjmcd
| replaced it with ...
| Mar 25 20:17
|
| ke4qqq
| stickster: +1 we don't care about Ubuntu
| Mar 25 20:18
|
| stickster
| jjmcd: I realize that, but it's not going to be hard for people to trace the quote and then take that as us having a chip on our shoulder.
| Mar 25 20:18
|
| ke4qqq
| and certainly don't want to call attentiont to them in our own release announcement.
| Mar 25 20:18
|
| jjmcd
| Ahhh, yeah, prolly right.
| Mar 25 20:18
|
| stickster
| From a marketing perspective, that's a total party foul.
| Mar 25 20:18
|
| jjmcd
| would anyone bother?
| Mar 25 20:19
|
| quaid
| yep
| Mar 25 20:19
|
| *stickster doesn't want to test those waters.
| Mar 25 20:19
|
| ianweller
| should we be using https for wiki urls?
| Mar 25 20:19
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah, I see that
| Mar 25 20:19
|
| quaid
| ianweller: I thought not?
| Mar 25 20:19
|
| jjmcd
| ianweller I thought I caught those
| Mar 25 20:19
|
| quaid
| or you mean to get the 'latest' without caching
| Mar 25 20:19
|
| ianweller
| well it bothers people who are logged in but i guess if we're caching, then don't
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| stickster
| Do people without a login get an annoying credentials input box if they use https://?
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| ke4qqq
| no
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| jjmcd
| No, I don't thnk so
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| ke4qqq
| they just have to do the entire session thing
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| ke4qqq
| with ssl
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| Sparks
| and that's bad?
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| ke4qqq
| which is more expensive for our infrastructure
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| stickster
| Oh, that's no fun then.
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| ke4qqq
| computationally
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| quaid
| and we don't get the ncaching benefit
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| ke4qqq
| right
| Mar 25 20:20
|
| stickster
| Yeah, use http:// unless it's going to an audience you know is entirely (or almost entirely) credentialed
| Mar 25 20:21
|
| ke4qqq
| that too
| Mar 25 20:21
|
| Sparks
| +1
| Mar 25 20:21
|
| stickster
| One other issue that was raised by someone in Marketing -- apparently "Is a better OS than Fedora 10 even possible?" comes off as a very offensive statement in at least one other language
| Mar 25 20:22
|
| ke4qqq
| I just pulled the kicks ass sentence out. flame me if you wish
| Mar 25 20:22
|
| quaid
| stickster: huh, really?
| Mar 25 20:22
|
| Sparks
| stickster: Really? I wonder what it translates to.
| Mar 25 20:22
|
| ke4qqq
| stickster: I gotta admit if we aren't transliterating what is the evil inference?
| Mar 25 20:23
|
| ke4qqq
| s/admit/ask
| Mar 25 20:23
|
| stickster
| I think it's an idiomatic or cultural thing, as opposed to "when you translate this, it says 'I would like to date your teenage daughter.'"
| Mar 25 20:23
|
| stickster
| What if we restated that in some way?
| Mar 25 20:23
|
| ke4qqq
| How about - While a better OS is hard to imagine - Fp.o has made the beta of Fedora 11 for you to realize how good it is now
| Mar 25 20:24
|
| Sparks
| Can you get any better than Fedora 10?
| Mar 25 20:24
|
| stickster
| Like, "Users, sysadmins, and press agree -- Fedora 10 outdid itself in terms of <blah, blah, blah>"
| Mar 25 20:24
|
| ke4qqq
| or something along those lines
| Mar 25 20:24
|
| stickster
| Sparks: We'd better hope so
| Mar 25 20:24
|
| stickster
| Oh, that was a suggestion, oops :-D
| Mar 25 20:24
|
| Sparks
| stickster: Gees
| Mar 25 20:24
|
| *radsy (n=scott@124-171-172-73.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 20:25
|
| Sparks
| Ummm... Do we even have "JUICY QUOTE 1"?
| Mar 25 20:25
|
| ke4qqq
| Sparks: we at least have Fedora 10 kicks ubuntus ass
| Mar 25 20:25
|
| quaid
| +1 to reference the agreed sources that Fedora 10 rox'd
| Mar 25 20:25
|
| stickster
| Sparks: Shouldn't be hard to find
| Mar 25 20:26
|
| stickster
| We got great press coverage.
| Mar 25 20:26
|
| stickster
| ke4qqq: :-D
| Mar 25 20:26
|
| Sparks
| :)
| Mar 25 20:26
|
| laubersm
| arg - give him a minute - he'll find one. :)
| Mar 25 20:26
|
| Sparks
| laubersm: nice type on top of the page... :)
| Mar 25 20:26
|
| laubersm
| did I get it all back out correctly?
| Mar 25 20:27
|
| *mdomsch has quit ("Leaving")
| Mar 25 20:27
|
| *laubersm has too many things and windows going on
| Mar 25 20:27
|
| *Pikachu_2014 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
| Mar 25 20:27
|
| stickster
| I'm looking up some press now, sorry, FF is slow
| Mar 25 20:27
|
| Sparks
| laubersm: yeah...
| Mar 25 20:27
|
| stickster
| by which I mean "Not instantaneously mind melding."
| Mar 25 20:27
|
| ke4qqq
| cause of course you are using minefield in rawhide :)
| Mar 25 20:28
|
| Sparks
| Is the bugzilla link supposed to be https://?
| Mar 25 20:28
|
| ianweller
| Sparks: yes
| Mar 25 20:28
|
| Sparks
| ianweller: TU
| Mar 25 20:28
|
| ianweller
| it doesn't accept http:// connections and redirects to https anyway
| Mar 25 20:28
|
| ke4qqq
| yeah http redirects to https
| Mar 25 20:28
|
| Sparks
| laubersm: Don't like contractions?
| Mar 25 20:29
|
| quaid
| nope
| Mar 25 20:29
|
| laubersm
| nope
| Mar 25 20:29
|
| Sparks
| sound clunky to my southern ear
| Mar 25 20:29
|
| ke4qqq
| mine too
| Mar 25 20:29
|
| laubersm
| they also do not always translate well - even if most translators know how to deal with them
| Mar 25 20:29
|
| ke4qqq
| true
| Mar 25 20:30
|
| quaid
| http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_General_Guidelines#Contractions
| Mar 25 20:30
|
| laubersm
| that too
| Mar 25 20:30
|
| Sparks
| quaid: Oh we can change that... it's in the wiki...
| Mar 25 20:30
|
| ke4qqq
| P in project is capitalized right?
| Mar 25 20:30
|
| quaid
| yes
| Mar 25 20:31
|
| quaid
| the formal project name
| Mar 25 20:31
|
| ke4qqq
| just making sure I wasn't crazy
| Mar 25 20:31
|
| quaid
| for those curious about various comments here
| Mar 25 20:31
|
| quaid
| we are writing together via gobby
| Mar 25 20:31
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: That top part is commented out. Should we use some of that or just open up the document with "The wait is over."
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| Sparks
| ?\
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| ke4qqq
| why is Gnome 2.26 and kde 4.2 not on their own line
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| quaid
| ke4qqq: contraction :)
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: Because we were trying to conform
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| laubersm
| ke4qqq, we condensed to a single bullet of updated desktops...
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| ke4qqq
| combining them makes it seem like an insignificant update
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| quaid
| G then K is alpha
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| Sparks
| Personally, I think they are big ticket items and could be separated if we have enough "stuff" to put behind them
| Mar 25 20:32
|
| quaid
| isn't 4.2 in F10
| Mar 25 20:33
|
| quaid
| ?
| Mar 25 20:33
|
| ke4qqq
| yes, but is debuting in F11
| Mar 25 20:33
|
| ke4qqq
| iirc
| Mar 25 20:33
|
| jjmcd
| I think it was in the talking points
| Mar 25 20:34
|
| quaid
| honey, she can't re-debut
| Mar 25 20:34
|
| quaid
| :)
| Mar 25 20:34
|
| ke4qqq
| sure - just like xfs support :)
| Mar 25 20:34
|
| laubersm
| Sparks, How much "stuff" do you want in the *announce* page?
| Mar 25 20:34
|
| laubersm
| that is the question that keeps comin round
| Mar 25 20:34
|
| Sparks
| Just enough to reel them in.
| Mar 25 20:35
|
| jjmcd
| Exactly - I would argue the gnome and kde updates ARE minor
| Mar 25 20:35
|
| Sparks
| You don't want to say you have a car for sale
| Mar 25 20:35
|
| Sparks
| You want to say you have a fast, red car for sale
| Mar 25 20:35
|
| jjmcd
| Hey - you ain't selling my car!
| Mar 25 20:35
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: too late
| Mar 25 20:35
|
| ke4qqq
| so since press is one of our target demographics - I think a column listing 'importnant' stuff is important, if they have to read the details it may not get covered.
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| quaid
| can't we link them to longer info?
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| jjmcd
| We do
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| jjmcd
| We link to the beta rn's and also to the beats
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| quaid
| then lots of shortness is better than fewer longer bits
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| laubersm
| anyone who is looking for it will find it with a single bullet saying that all the desktops have been updated to the latest version and
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| Sparks
| Yeah to the release notes
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| laubersm
| those that don't know they need it won't care that it is not separate bullets
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| Sparks
| Then you have a grocery list
| Mar 25 20:36
|
| laubersm
| The RN then has all the details in their own sections
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| quaid
| Sparks: with adjectives
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| jjmcd
| We also have a link to the feature list
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| quaid
| Fantastic new sparkling beans in a can!
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| quaid
| v .
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| quaid
| beans
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| ke4qqq
| latest vintage sparkling beans in a can :)
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| Sparks
| yikes
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| Sparks
| no more beans! :)
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| jjmcd
| And you don't learn that you need a fancy new $1000 can opener until you get to the beats
| Mar 25 20:37
|
| laubersm
| and btw - the feature list needs some love too - there was a request to f-d-l a while back to wordsmith it and I have done some but it needs much more...
| Mar 25 20:38
|
| Sparks
| The desktop statement just sounds bland to me
| Mar 25 20:38
|
| jjmcd
| It kind of is ... there are no really cool user features
| Mar 25 20:38
|
| Sparks
| Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop?
| Mar 25 20:38
|
| ke4qqq
| they moved to kde 4.2 and gnome 2.26
| Mar 25 20:39
|
| *Pikachu_2014 (n=Pikachu_@81-66-20-24.rev.numericable.fr) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 20:39
|
| Sparks
| so they just changed the number?
| Mar 25 20:39
|
| laubersm
| and fixed the bugs
| Mar 25 20:39
|
| laubersm
| they changed how sound works in gnome
| Mar 25 20:39
|
| laubersm
| and broke it elsewhere
| Mar 25 20:39
|
| jjmcd
| I think there were some enablers there, too, but nothing earth shattering
| Mar 25 20:39
|
| *zwu|gone is now known as zwu
| Mar 25 20:39
|
| ke4qqq
| 20 second startup?
| Mar 25 20:40
|
| *laubersm is kidding
| Mar 25 20:40
|
| ke4qqq
| Auto Bug Reporting Tool?
| Mar 25 20:40
|
| Sparks
| Gnome 2.26 has been updated to include new sound controls, a faster startup, and an ATM that will funnel money directly into your pocket
| Mar 25 20:40
|
| ke4qqq
| tbird3
| Mar 25 20:41
|
| ke4qqq
| delta rpms? preso
| Mar 25 20:41
|
| ke4qqq
| presto
| Mar 25 20:41
|
| *joat (n=joat@ip70-174-79-200.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #Fedora-Meeting
| Mar 25 20:41
|
| ke4qqq
| ohhhh the big one
| Mar 25 20:41
|
| laubersm
| ke4qqq, are you suggesting we replace some of the existing bullets with these other choices?
| Mar 25 20:41
|
| ke4qqq
| OPENCHANGE
| Mar 25 20:41
|
| ke4qqq
| I am answering Sparks question
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| *laubersm looks back....
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: What was my question?!?
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| Sparks
| Oh
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| Sparks
| Bah
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| laubersm
| ahh
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| ke4qqq
| 20:38 < Sparks> Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop?
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| ke4qqq
| but we HAVE to cover openchange
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| ke4qqq
| that's HUGE
| Mar 25 20:42
|
| ke4qqq
| first distro to have it
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| laubersm
| ke4qqq, but those are not parts of the desktop envirment themselves... they are separate apps
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| stickster
| We don't need to cover every single change in the Beta announcement
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| Sparks
| Openchange?
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| ke4qqq
| native mapi library for linux
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| ke4qqq
| corporate drones like me rejoice
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| laubersm
| wow!!!
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| Sparks
| :)
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| laubersm
| what's that mean?
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| ke4qqq
| native exchange access for evolution and kdepim
| Mar 25 20:43
|
| laubersm
| ick
| Mar 25 20:44
|
| Sparks
| Are we really going to say "Microsoft" in our announcement?
| Mar 25 20:44
|
| jjmcd
| Not nearly as HUGE as qtel
| Mar 25 20:44
|
| Sparks
| That's just bad juju right there
| Mar 25 20:44
|
| laubersm
| but I can see why corp drones rejoice
| Mar 25 20:44
|
| *Nirmal has quit ("Leaving")
| Mar 25 20:44
|
| *EvilBob has quit (Remote closed the connection)
| Mar 25 20:44
|
| ke4qqq
| perhaps my perspective is skewed on that point
| Mar 25 20:44
|
| ke4qqq
| I'll defer to the wisdom of others
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| quaid
| Sparks: it's a trademark
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| ke4qqq
| though I think it's huge.
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| ke4qqq
| jjmcd: what's qtel?
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| quaid
| it's just habit to use trademarks of other people correctly, it's respectful
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| jjmcd
| echolink client - huge to a different audience
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| laubersm
| we are already saying Microsoft - with the cross compiler.
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| stickster
| We can get away with just the first one, though, which is also standard
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| quaid
| Sparks: also, I don't like to concede the generic word 'windows' to MSFT
| Mar 25 20:45
|
| Sparks
| Yeah... but it points out that there are other OSs to deal with. We shouldn't be point out anyone else's OS... IMO
| Mar 25 20:46
|
| stickster
| quaid: The problem is, now it reads like it's a Microsoft product we're including.
| Mar 25 20:46
|
| quaid
| stickster: not really iirc aiui
| Mar 25 20:46
|
| quaid
| ok then reword it
| Mar 25 20:46
|
| Sparks
| stickster: yeah
| Mar 25 20:46
|
| quaid
| how about
| Mar 25 20:46
|
| stickster
| dammit, that's not right either
| Mar 25 20:46
|
| stickster
| There you go
| Mar 25 20:46
|
| quaid
| not MS
| Mar 25 20:47
|
| Sparks
| Cross compiler for that "OtherOS"
| Mar 25 20:47
|
| quaid
| heh
| Mar 25 20:47
|
| Sparks
| ")
| Mar 25 20:47
|
| Sparks
| :)
| Mar 25 20:47
|
| jjmcd
| "Windows from that evil empire in Washington"?
| Mar 25 20:47
|
| *G_work_ is now known as G_work
| Mar 25 20:47
|
| *laubersm seems to remember that same issue/discussion when that item reached feature review as well....
| Mar 25 20:48
|
| *ke4qqq notes we are 47 minutes into the meeting.
| Mar 25 20:48
|
| *EvilBob (n=EvilBob@fedora/bobjensen) has joined #Fedora-Meeting
| Mar 25 20:48
|
| quaid
| who summoned EvilBob ?!?!
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| jjmcd
| But we have made huge improvements in the announcement
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: We are going over tonight
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| quaid
| ok, working meeting is tough
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| quaid
| Sparks: do you want to cover anything else within the hour
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| ke4qqq
| I am not objecting - just keeping us mindful
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| stickster
| Is there not Publican stuff on the agenda?
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| ke4qqq
| of the time
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| quaid
| just in case ppl have to go?
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| Sparks
| Yeah, does anyone need to bail at the top of the hour?
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| quaid
| we could take apause on the announcement
| Mar 25 20:49
|
| stickster
| Sparks: Unfortch, I do
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| quaid
| I just read it top to bottom and did a few edits, it's quite there
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| Sparks
| bah
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| Sparks
| Okay...
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Publican Discussion
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| Sparks
| We'll jump back on the announcement in a few...
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| Sparks
| So there is a problem.
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| jjmcd
| multiples, actually
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| Sparks
| We've been trying to shoehorn Publican into Fedora for the past three releases...
| Mar 25 20:50
|
| Sparks
| and I know that I've gone rounds with Publican trying to get it to meet my needs...
| Mar 25 20:51
|
| stickster
| Er, two, right?
| Mar 25 20:51
|
| Sparks
| with some success.
| Mar 25 20:51
|
| stickster
| Anyway, it's been a while coming.
| Mar 25 20:51
|
| Sparks
| I'm going to count three problems...
| Mar 25 20:51
|
| Sparks
| 1) The naming schema does not match Fedora naming schema.
| Mar 25 20:51
|
| Sparks
| 2) The Translators don't get statistics from Publican packages.
| Mar 25 20:52
|
| Sparks
| 3) Support is lacking for changes that need to be made for Fedora.
| Mar 25 20:52
|
| ke4qqq
| ?
| Mar 25 20:52
|
| quaid
| on #2, stats are available via CLI tools only, which breaks team workflow
| Mar 25 20:52
|
| Sparks
| quaid: Thanks
| Mar 25 20:52
|
| quaid
| on #1, this is packaging naming in specific
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| Sparks
| right
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| jjmcd
| It also looks as if the structure of the various langs produced by Publican is different and something else we may need to deal with
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| quaid
| ke4qqq: go ahead
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| quaid
| jjmcd: good point
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| quaid
| previous tools put all langs in one package
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| stickster
| Another note on #2, Spot and I have been working on some folks internally to break loose some hours to pitch in code that lets Tx handle Publican.
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| quaid
| publican produces 1 package per lang
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| quaid
| meaning we have x*y new packages
| Mar 25 20:53
|
| Sparks
| and each has to be evaluated
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| stickster
| 1 SRPM per lang?
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| ke4qqq
| can you explain #3 - should I be taking that as upstream doesn't want to help us, or that they are abandoning?
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| ke4qqq
| stickster: what has your success level been?
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| jjmcd
| But if we need to hack the rpm, we *MAY* be able to fix that anyway
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| stickster
| ke4qqq: Hang on, let's resolve these questions first
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| ke4qqq
| ok
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| quaid
| ke4qqq: features requested have primarily been met with an answer that they are not pertinent to the Publican audience.
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| stickster
| quaid: Is that 1 SRPM per lang?
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: I have moderate success with getting things fixed upstream but I've also been told that fixes for "silly" Fedora problems won't be fixed.
| Mar 25 20:54
|
| Sparks
| which is a problem
| Mar 25 20:55
|
| jjmcd
| stickster: yes
| Mar 25 20:55
|
| quaid
| ke4qqq: and either cannot be done as it is written or there are no resources to fix but a patch is welcome.\
| Mar 25 20:55
|
| stickster
| Oh. Ew.
| Mar 25 20:55
|
| quaid
| yeah, forgot about that one
| Mar 25 20:55
|
| Sparks
| yeah, that one has been brewing for a while
| Mar 25 20:55
|
| ke4qqq
| wow - guess that's one way to get package count up
| Mar 25 20:55
|
| quaid
| *snort*
| Mar 25 20:56
|
| stickster
| That should be part of any spec file fix that we brew up, if we bother at all.
| Mar 25 20:56
|
| Sparks
| Does anyone have any questions about #1?
| Mar 25 20:56
|
| Sparks
| (I'm going to dig up an email in a sec...)
| Mar 25 20:56
|
| jjmcd
| does our package HAVE to be called f-r-n
| Mar 25 20:56
|
| quaid
| jjmcd: ask f13
| Mar 25 20:56
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: The problem stems from the product number being put into the name.
| Mar 25 20:57
|
| stickster
| jjmcd: It needs to carry the word "fedora-" at the front, AIUI, since it's part of the branding that would be removed in a remix.
| Mar 25 20:57
|
| f13
| ... what name would you prefer?
| Mar 25 20:57
|
| Sparks
| It is the difference between fedora-security-guide and fedora-security-guide-10
| Mar 25 20:58
|
| jjmcd
| I was wondering why not allow Publican to put the release number in the package name
| Mar 25 20:58
|
| f13
| eeew
| Mar 25 20:58
|
| Sparks
| Well, right now you can't turn it off
| Mar 25 20:58
|
| f13
| versions should never be in the name.
| Mar 25 20:58
|
| Sparks
| and the Security Guide is not tied directly to ANY specific release of Fedora
| Mar 25 20:58
|
| jjmcd
| Why not allow people to install the NEXT version of release notes to study before installing?
| Mar 25 20:59
|
| *kolesovdv has quit (Remote closed the connection)
| Mar 25 20:59
|
| *Tsagadai (n=ccurran@nat/redhat/x-3dbd5f30fc89cdd7) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 20:59
|
| quaid
| jjmcd: right, that's the use case being argued for
| Mar 25 20:59
|
| stickster
| jjmcd: That was kind of my question. It's actually a useful thing IMHO
| Mar 25 20:59
|
| quaid
| but it's a packaging committee discussion, really
| Mar 25 20:59
|
| quaid
| and someone has to care enough to take it there
| Mar 25 20:59
|
| f13
| you can upgrade your release notes
| Mar 25 20:59
|
| f13
| do you think that somebody would want to go back and read the old ones locally once that has been done?
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| quaid
| f13: it's for sysadmins
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| f13
| (and why would they install the package when the newer release notes are available on the web?)
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| quaid
| to have multiple versions of one guide
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| stickster
| f13: And for writers.
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| quaid
| one per package
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| laubersm
| f13: yes
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| ke4qqq
| so do we have someone lobbying FPC for this?
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| quaid
| ke4qqq: not from Docs
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| quaid
| that I know of
| Mar 25 21:00
|
| quaid
| nor do I see consensus that is the way to go :L)
| Mar 25 21:01
|
| Sparks
| I don't have a problem having the number there but I want the option to turn it off.
| Mar 25 21:01
|
| Sparks
| Because I don't want it in my document.
| Mar 25 21:01
|
| jjmcd
| I'm not convinced it is the right answer, but I'm not convinced it isn't
| Mar 25 21:01
|
| *kolesovdv (n=kolesovd@82.162.141.18) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 21:01
|
| quaid
| seems a legit use case to me
| Mar 25 21:02
|
| quaid
| but it's freaking late to bring the case
| Mar 25 21:02
|
| stickster
| Sparks: So the problem here is that Publican doesn't predict any documentation that's not tied to a specific software release
| Mar 25 21:02
|
| Sparks
| I'd be happy to fight the battle with the FPC but Publican is broken for me
| Mar 25 21:02
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah, whatever we do we need to work with the tools we got
| Mar 25 21:02
|
| Sparks
| stickster: You cannot tell Publican to NOT use the product number. So everything HAS to be tied to a specific release.
| Mar 25 21:02
|
| quaid
| how much work would it be to add PDF to fedora-doc-utils and package the whole thing?
| Mar 25 21:03
|
| quaid
| s/add/fix/
| Mar 25 21:03
|
| Sparks
| quaid: Would you like me to paste the five options?
| Mar 25 21:03
|
| jjmcd
| And my leaning is to continue down the Publican path, so we are at least a baby step closer come F12 time
| Mar 25 21:03
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: We wouldn't be
| Mar 25 21:03
|
| Sparks
| Okay... earlier I posted an email to the f-docs-l...
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| stickster
| I would like to try my hand at fixing this problem, but it's hours that I don't tend to have anymore :-(
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| that had five options for moving forward because I don't tread water that well...
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| quaid
| jjmcd: someone from the wide community needs to be a Publican contributor, work on Fedora Docs needs, and maybe take over the package.
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| 1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| 2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| name
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| 4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| 5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| stickster
| Because I *think* we could add needed support to the publican-fedora brand pacakge.
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| stickster
| *package.
| Mar 25 21:04
|
| Sparks
| I don't have a problem with forking the development at this point.
| Mar 25 21:05
|
| quaid
| jjmcd: iirc jfearn has stated that he'd love to not maintain the package
| Mar 25 21:05
|
| laubersm
| I like the idea of a FPC exception for F11 name with version and long term fix publican to allow no version number
| Mar 25 21:05
|
| stickster
| I don't think a fork is required, we could put needed support in the Makefile.fedora
| Mar 25 21:05
|
| quaid
| jjmcd: without that level of commitment from some general Fedoran, I fear we'll always be second citizens in the Publican audience
| Mar 25 21:05
|
| ke4qqq
| I am rapidly favoring the fork option. Especially if upstream considers these "silly"
| Mar 25 21:05
|
| *stickster thinks we should not rush to using the word "fork" if people here simply aren't aware of what we can apply to the publican-fedora package.
| Mar 25 21:06
|
| jjmcd
| I don't think the number is the only problem
| Mar 25 21:06
|
| stickster
| Let's put that term aside for a moment.
| Mar 25 21:06
|
| Sparks
| stickster: It's not in the makefile
| Mar 25 21:06
|
| Sparks
| stickster: It is in the core of Publican
| Mar 25 21:06
|
| stickster
| Sparks: Well, the thing creating the specfile is an XSL sheet, yes?
| Mar 25 21:07
|
| Sparks
| stickster: No idea. I don't remember where I pulled that line of code out and beat it with a hammer.
| Mar 25 21:07
|
| Sparks
| stickster: But if it were that easy, why all the problems four months later?
| Mar 25 21:08
|
| stickster
| So, as a fellow Docs guy, I'm not really comfortable with people yelling "Fork! Fork!" when we don't fully grok the technical stuff
| Mar 25 21:08
|
| stickster
| Because then it seems like we really don't know why we're forking.
| Mar 25 21:08
|
| Sparks
| Spoon! Spoon!
| Mar 25 21:08
|
| stickster
| heh
| Mar 25 21:08
|
| jjmcd
| But it does look to me, at least for F11, that option 4 is the straightest line
| Mar 25 21:09
|
| stickster
| jjmcd: The problem is that fedora-doc-utils won't work with Publican formatted materials, and vice versa.
| Mar 25 21:09
|
| stickster
| They are mutually incompatible.
| Mar 25 21:09
|
| stickster
| (at least, not without some hacking, which, if we're going to do it, we might as well try to do with Publican.)
| Mar 25 21:09
|
| stickster
| er, publican-fedora
| Mar 25 21:10
|
| jjmcd
| But since all we need is basically a specfile, is it really that big of a deal?
| Mar 25 21:10
|
| Sparks
| yeah, we need to get PDF action into fedora-doc-utils IF that is something we want to offer
| Mar 25 21:10
|
| *FergatROn (n=Marc@c-24-126-129-136.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 21:10
|
| stickster
| I'll take a task of looking at Publican up through this weekend to see what we can fix. If I don't think it can be done, I should at least explain why to the list.
| Mar 25 21:10
|
| jjmcd
| Publican makes docs we can use, it just doesn't package them
| Mar 25 21:10
|
| *FergatROn has quit (Client Quit)
| Mar 25 21:11
|
| *stickster notes that if jfearn is amenable to our taking over publican-fedora, we should try and implement fixes there. But if the architecture doesn't allow it, we move on.
| Mar 25 21:11
|
| stickster
| Or at least, I will :-)
| Mar 25 21:11
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: We make docs we can use... That last step is putting them in the hands of everyone else
| Mar 25 21:11
|
| jjmcd
| Yes, but all that really is is packaging
| Mar 25 21:12
|
| *stickster has to bail, late
| Mar 25 21:12
|
| *laubersm too
| Mar 25 21:12
|
| jjmcd
| ciao
| Mar 25 21:12
|
| stickster
| I'll catch up on the log and see what I can do with publican-fedora over the rest of the week
| Mar 25 21:12
|
| Sparks
| Okay, I think we should let stickster do some investigating and maybe he can tell us something next week.
| Mar 25 21:12
|
| Tsagadai
| option 6 is far easier
| Mar 25 21:12
|
| Sparks
| Anything else before we go back to the Beta Announcement?
| Mar 25 21:13
|
| jjmcd
| PDF
| Mar 25 21:13
|
| Sparks
| yes?
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| jjmcd
| Is that something we want,and where
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| *stickster is now known as stickster_afk
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| ke4qqq
| yes
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| Sparks
| Good question. What are we going to do with a PDF?
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| quaid
| jjmcd: we want them for all docs, on docs.fp.o
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| jjmcd
| Personally, I like PDFs, but since we don't have them I don't see their place
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| quaid
| alongside tarball, html one page, etc.
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| Sparks
| quaid: In lieu of html?
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| quaid
| jjmcd: long requested feature
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| jjmcd
| OK, that would be good
| Mar 25 21:14
|
| quaid
| no
| Mar 25 21:15
|
| quaid
| alongside html
| Mar 25 21:15
|
| quaid
| ppl want to print the Installation Guide, etc.
| Mar 25 21:15
|
| Sparks
| +1
| Mar 25 21:15
|
| jjmcd
| yepper
| Mar 25 21:15
|
| Sparks
| Okay, anything else?
| Mar 25 21:16
|
| *laubersm is now known as laubersm_afk
| Mar 25 21:16
|
| ke4qqq
| quaid: they might not this release :)
| Mar 25 21:16
|
| jjmcd
| because the IG is unhelpful?
| Mar 25 21:16
|
| ke4qqq
| because it's up to 172 pages
| Mar 25 21:16
|
| jjmcd
| That hard to install, huh
| Mar 25 21:17
|
| Sparks
| Okay... back to the announcement
| Mar 25 21:17
|
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement Part 2
| Mar 25 21:17
|
| Sparks
| Any other changes?
| Mar 25 21:17
|
| *openpercept (n=openperc@unaffiliated/openpercept) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 21:18
|
| Sparks
| I see jjmcd making a few changes
| Mar 25 21:19
|
| *dychen_ has quit ("Ex-Chat")
| Mar 25 21:19
|
| *dychen_ (n=dingyich@d122-105-171-109.rdl15.qld.optusnet.com.au) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 21:20
|
| jjmcd
| I still keep wondering about gcc. I feel like we should be warning ppl, but it doesn't seem right in an announcement
| Mar 25 21:20
|
| *nman64 (n=n-man@fedora/nman64) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 21:21
|
| jjmcd
| Do we need to talk about replacing HAL?
| Mar 25 21:21
|
| jjmcd
| Maybe for the geeks
| Mar 25 21:21
|
| Sparks
| the gcc thing still sounds weird
| Mar 25 21:21
|
| ke4qqq
| not replacing - but perhaps what replaced it
| Mar 25 21:21
|
| Sparks
| volume control model ???
| Mar 25 21:23
|
| ke4qqq
| indeed!!!
| Mar 25 21:23
|
| Sparks
| Should that just be volume control?
| Mar 25 21:23
|
| jjmcd
| yeah
| Mar 25 21:23
|
| *ke4qqq thought we were talking about going up to 11
| Mar 25 21:23
|
| *jjmcd is still stressing over gcc ... ...
| Mar 25 21:23
|
| *n9986 (n=nandeep@unaffiliated/n9986) has joined #fedora-meeting
| Mar 25 21:24
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Is there anything in the RN about power management or "greeness"?
| Mar 25 21:25
|
| jjmcd
| ke4qqq - any better?
| Mar 25 21:25
|
| jjmcd
| I don't recall seeing anything
| Mar 25 21:25
|
| *openpercept has quit ("Leaving.")
| Mar 25 21:25
|
| ke4qqq
| worksforme
| Mar 25 21:25
|
| ke4qqq
| q
| Mar 25 21:25
|
| Sparks
| I thought there was some changes coming for powertop
| Mar 25 21:25
|
| jjmcd
| Nothing in the talking points
| Mar 25 21:27
|
| Sparks
| Make ext4 the default files system for anaconda-driven installs (replacing ext3). User should notice generally better performance, and benefit from things such as persistent preallocation when using updated torrent clients, and so forth.
| Mar 25 21:27
|
| Sparks
| and so forth?
| Mar 25 21:27
|
| ke4qqq
| torrent clients seems too much detail
| Mar 25 21:28
|
| ke4qqq
| how about better performance?
| Mar 25 21:28
|
| ke4qqq
| and end it there?
| Mar 25 21:28
|
| jjmcd
| There is a kind of motherhood and apple pie statement in the feature list about power
| Mar 25 21:28
|
| ke4qqq
| and so forth?
| Mar 25 21:29
|
| ke4qqq
| do my changes to ext4 rile anyones feathers?
| Mar 25 21:29
|
| Sparks
| I don't like the "and so forth"
| Mar 25 21:29
|
| ke4qqq
| well that disappeared with some other stuff
| Mar 25 21:30
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: What is it?
| Mar 25 21:30
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: Remove generally?
| Mar 25 21:30
|
| ke4qqq
| ok
| Mar 25 21:30
|
| jjmcd
| Looking at the feature page for power management and it looks pretty good
| Mar 25 21:30
|
| jjmcd
| not so sure it will be easy to say in 25 wors or less
| Mar 25 21:31
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: how's that?
| Mar 25 21:31
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: link?
| Mar 25 21:31
|
| ke4qqq
| why add read/write - one of the cool improvements is fsck time
| Mar 25 21:31
|
| jjmcd
| Features/Power_Management - sorry on another box
| Mar 25 21:31
|
| ke4qqq
| how about filesystem
| Mar 25 21:31
|
| ke4qqq
| ?
| Mar 25 21:31
|
| ke4qqq
| will is much stronger +1
| Mar 25 21:32
|
| Sparks
| :)
| Mar 25 21:33
|
| ke4qqq
| am I crazy or does a not belong there?
| Mar 25 21:33
|
| Sparks
| YOU WILL!
| Mar 25 21:33
|
| Sparks
| where?
| Mar 25 21:33
|
| ke4qqq
| shall we move to #fedora-docs?
| Mar 25 21:33
|
| ke4qqq
| nm it's addressed now
| Mar 25 21:33
|
| ke4qqq
| the a part not the moving
| Mar 25 21:33
|
| Sparks
| I don't like ext4, still
| Mar 25 21:33
|
| *n9986_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
| Mar 25 21:34
|
| Sparks
| Anyone have anything else for the meeting?
| Mar 25 21:35
|
| *Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Anything else?
| Mar 25 21:35
|
| Sparks
| Thanks everyone for coming!
| Mar 25 21:36
|
| Sparks
| </meeting>
| Mar 25 21:36
|
