| Sparks
| #startmeeting
| 00:00
|
| Sparks
| #meetingtopic Docs Meeting 25 Jun 2009
| 00:00
|
| Sparks
| #topic Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
| 00:00
|
| Sparks
| Roll Call
| 00:00
|
| * Sparks is here
| 00:00
|
| * ke4qqq is here
| 00:00
|
| uclugLee
| is here (still learning chat code)
| 00:01
|
| ke4qqq
| welcome Lee!
| 00:01
|
| Sparks
| Welcome all... Hopefully we'll have a good attendance tonight.
| 00:01
|
| * ianweller is kinda maybe sorta here but not really
| 00:02
|
| * rudi is here
| 00:02
|
| ke4qqq
| isn't someone paying you to attend ianweller ??? :)
| 00:02
|
| * Sparks ties ianweller to a chair
| 00:02
|
| ianweller
| ke4qqq: my internet is being fuxxored
| 00:02
|
| ianweller
| i want to burn my ISP
| 00:02
|
| ianweller
| but
| 00:02
|
| ianweller
| yeah
| 00:02
|
| ke4qqq
| ahhhh ok
| 00:02
|
| ianweller
| so no warning on whether i'm here or not :P
| 00:02
|
| ke4qqq
| is that excuse the new 'my dog ate my homework' ?
| 00:02
|
| * Sparks hopes that quaid will be here so he can talk about the licensing
| 00:03
|
| ianweller
| ke4qqq: ok you ping salina0.ianweller.org and see when it stops responding. :P
| 00:03
|
| Sparks
| ianweller: Can we all do that?
| 00:03
|
| Sparks
| home grown DDOS
| 00:03
|
| Sparks
| :)
| 00:03
|
| ianweller
| bluh
| 00:03
|
| uclugLee
| Woohoo!!! My name is registered now...not really sure what that means, but....
| 00:03
|
| * Sparks gives everyone one more minute
| 00:05
|
| ianweller
| hmm it seems like my internet is fairly stable now
| 00:05
|
| ianweller
| whee
| 00:05
|
| ke4qqq
| ianweller: have you done an unofficial review on ucluglee's package?
| 00:05
|
| ianweller
| no
| 00:05
|
| ianweller
| i should probably do that.
| 00:05
|
| * Sparks makes a note to doc ianweller's pay for this week
| 00:06
|
| ke4qqq
| do I nned to add it to the todo?
| 00:06
|
| uclugLee
| Wait.......that didn't sound right.
| 00:06
|
| ianweller
| ke4qqq: that would be extremely helpful
| 00:06
|
| Sparks
| DO IT!
| 00:06
|
| Sparks
| Okay... if everyone will take their seats... we'll get started
| 00:06
|
| Sparks
| quaid: You here?
| 00:06
|
| * radsy is here
| 00:06
|
| * Sparks skips the CC licensing topic
| 00:07
|
| Sparks
| is anyone here about the shared open-source style guide?
| 00:07
|
| ianweller
| can someone recap that for me?
| 00:07
|
| ianweller
| i'm kinda lost about it
| 00:07
|
| Sparks
| ianweller: as soon as someone fills me in... sure
| 00:07
|
| ianweller
| hah
| 00:08
|
| ianweller
| mmmmk
| 00:08
|
| ke4qqq
| I like the idea - but man someone needs to stand up and lead it - and come up with lots of volunteers
| 00:08
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: Would you like to speak about it?
| 00:08
|
| ke4qqq
| not really
| 00:08
|
| pcutler
| Sparks: which one? (I'm here representing GNOME, at a docs conference 2 weeks ago we started working on a shared open source style guide)
| 00:08
|
| Sparks
| #topic Shared open-source style guide
| 00:08
|
| radsy
| we have our own internal style guide here
| 00:08
|
| Sparks
| Okay... let's jump into it, then.
| 00:08
|
| ke4qqq
| radsy: does it reference cms or ap?
| 00:09
|
| radsy
| ap?
| 00:09
|
| Sparks
| pcutler: What can you tell us about the style guide project.
| 00:09
|
| Sparks
| ?
| 00:09
|
| rudi
| ke4qqq - neither
| 00:09
|
| pcutler
| at a docs conference 2 weeks ago, we had various free software projects, including GNOME, XFCE, Ubuntu, Drupal and BSD together.
| 00:09
|
| pcutler
| during our hackfest on Sunday, one group started working on the style guide, which is a wip found here: http://writingopensource.com/node/14
| 00:10
|
| pcutler
| this is in it's infancy, so it's still really rough, and nowhere near complete
| 00:10
|
| ke4qqq
| radsy - Associates Press - and Chicago Manual of Style
| 00:10
|
| * Sparks wonders why I wasn't invited... :(
| 00:10
|
| pcutler
| i didn't spend a lot of time on it as I was doing GNOME hackfest stuff
| 00:10
|
| Sparks
| pcutler: So what do you want/need from us?
| 00:11
|
| ke4qqq
| radsy: any chance CES's is OPL-licensed?
| 00:11
|
| pcutler
| Sparks: don't know yet, right now our goal is to get GNOME better integrated downstream and open communication to stuff like this
| 00:11
|
| shaunm
| pcutler: discussing the open source style guide?
| 00:11
|
| pcutler
| shaunm: yes
| 00:11
|
| pcutler
| as far as they style guide, I was there, but wasn't active on that project
| 00:12
|
| Sparks
| shaunm: If you have something to add please do.
| 00:12
|
| radsy
| ke4qqq, i'm not sure how it's licensed, but i can probably find out for you
| 00:12
|
| radsy
| leave it with me
| 00:12
|
| pcutler
| one topic discussed was how to create our own version of the Chicago Manual of Style long term
| 00:12
|
| ke4qqq
| that'd be awesome
| 00:12
|
| rudi
| ke4qqq -- not at the moment, in fact, it's "Confidential"
| 00:12
|
| radsy
| or that ^
| 00:12
|
| pcutler
| "our" as in all open source projects
| 00:13
|
| Sparks
| I guess I'm just confused about what is needed from Fedora. I'm sure we'd be happy to participate and provide all our documentation as needed.
| 00:13
|
| shaunm
| I saw some confusion in some places, so I'd just like to point out that the idea is not to get rid of project-specific style guides
| 00:13
|
| ke4qqq
| they want us to participate in creation - plus fedora has an existing style guide - though it references chicago so it's incomplete in their scope.
| 00:14
|
| * quaid slides in the back of the room
| 00:14
|
| shaunm
| right, so any sufficiently large documentation project has its own style guide. same happens in the commercial sector
| 00:14
|
| shaunm
| but project style guides deal with very specific things for that project, and happily leave the general stuff to a general style guide, like CMS or AP
| 00:15
|
| Sparks
| okay. It would probably be a good time to get some folks working on updating our backend documents (like the style-guide and development documentation)
| 00:15
|
| shaunm
| the idea is to make a free style guide that can be that general base for all of us
| 00:15
|
| quaid
| certainly in the area of "is it x86, X86, etc."
| 00:16
|
| quaid
| we do our readers a service in normalizing
| 00:16
|
| Sparks
| Okay. Is there anyone that would like to raise their hand and volunteer to work as a liaison and help wrangle this from our end?
| 00:16
|
| ke4qqq
| I don't mind acting as a liaison there
| 00:17
|
| shaunm
| and note that I don't know how we're going about this. I'm not the one leading the effort
| 00:17
|
| ke4qqq
| but I'd really like to see if we could get CES to release theirs under a free license.
| 00:17
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: Thanks. I'll put you on it, then. I'd also like to be involved. Just keep me in the loop of what's happening, please.
| 00:17
|
| ke4qqq
| np
| 00:17
|
| rudi
| ke4qqq -- I'll be happy to follow that up. I don't imagine that it would be a big deal.
| 00:18
|
| shaunm
| ke4qqq: sorry, I'm not familiar with CES. link?
| 00:18
|
| quaid
| ke4qqq: +1 to an RHT addition
| 00:18
|
| rudi
| shaunm, actually, ECS -- Red Hat Engineering Content Services
| 00:18
|
| ke4qqq
| shaunm: Content Engineering Services - it's the docs team at RH
| 00:18
|
| shaunm
| ah, thanks
| 00:18
|
| ke4qqq
| wow - sorry for transposing the name
| 00:19
|
| rudi
| ke4qqq - np. It's not in front of your face every day, like it is for some of us ;)
| 00:19
|
| Sparks
| Okay, so ke4qqq is going to run with that ball. Does anyone else have anything on this topic?
| 00:20
|
| Sparks
| shaunm: pcutler: Thanks for helping us understand what's happening here.
| 00:21
|
| * Sparks moves back to the first topic since he saw quaid slip into the back of the room.
| 00:21
|
| scramer
| Im curious what style guides we have already. the link posted a minute ago. doesn't contain much
| 00:21
|
| Sparks
| scramer: I think that is something we are going to have to figure out.
| 00:22
|
| Sparks
| #topic Status on CC license discussion
| 00:23
|
| Sparks
| quaid: Do you have an update on the license discussion?
| 00:23
|
| quaid
| short is, I've been on vacation since the last meeting, basically
| 00:23
|
| quaid
| so I haven't moved the needl
| 00:23
|
| quaid
| but bonus, I just started up gnote from scratch
| 00:24
|
| quaid
| and added this as the first to-do item
| 00:24
|
| quaid
| I'll bounce traffic back to the list asap.
| 00:24
|
| quaid
| <eof>
| 00:24
|
| Sparks
| :)
| 00:24
|
| Sparks
| cool... Does anyone have any questions?
| 00:24
|
| quaid
| and dependencies I need to know about?
| 00:24
|
| Sparks
| quaid: Thanks for the update...
| 00:26
|
| Sparks
| moving on
| 00:26
|
| quaid
| esp. dependencies :)
| 00:26
|
| quaid
| so moved
| 00:27
|
| Sparks
| :)
| 00:27
|
| Sparks
| #topic Bugzilla Component Changes - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sparks/BZ_and_Guide_Table
| 00:27
|
| Sparks
| So no one has really commented on this. So if no one has anything to say about it tonight I'm going to start the process of converting or changing or leaving alone.
| 00:28
|
| * quaid takes a quick final peek
| 00:28
|
| ianweller
| Sparks: did you talk to translators about abandoning the translation docs?
| 00:28
|
| ianweller
| i don't want other subprojects getting angry
| 00:29
|
| Sparks
| ianweller: yes. I've gotten multiple confirmation on blowing those files away
| 00:29
|
| Sparks
| errr... abandoning them
| 00:29
|
| * Sparks never throws anything away
| 00:29
|
| quaid
| it's in Trac now iirc
| 00:29
|
| quaid
| um, two questions
| 00:29
|
| quaid
| docs-common has tools in it that are potentially useful, may never be packaged, and are in trac now
| 00:29
|
| quaid
| do we not need a bug component because it's not a packaged thing?
| 00:30
|
| ke4qqq
| and many of them still needed for things like RN
| 00:30
|
| * quaid is going to go over his alotted two questions, but tries ...
| 00:30
|
| ke4qqq
| and older versions of documents such as the IG for F10
| 00:30
|
| quaid
| and example-tutorial, is that supplated by create_book?
| 00:31
|
| quaid
| i.e., if we want a Fedora-specific example, we should put it in publican-fedora, right?
| 00:31
|
| * quaid notes there may have been some gold in xml-normalize, but it's probably supplanted by pulican, too
| 00:31
|
| * quaid has latency, argh
| 00:32
|
| quaid
| <eoq>
| 00:32
|
| Sparks
| quaid: We can put anything in bz that needs to be there. I plan on being very flexible with "our" product in bz.
| 00:32
|
| quaid
| so, if we are doing team wide planning/task management with bz, we probably need to keep docs-common under it's new name
| 00:32
|
| Sparks
| quaid: And I think many things are going to get "lost" because we will be using publican.
| 00:33
|
| Sparks
| quaid: +1 to using BZ for... everything
| 00:33
|
| quaid
| bzborg
| 00:33
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: I'm not sure if I understand your statement
| 00:34
|
| quaid
| docs-common tools are still needed
| 00:34
|
| quaid
| for RN and F10 guides, i.e. "PP" (pre-publican)
| 00:34
|
| ke4qqq
| perhaps I misunderstand then
| 00:34
|
| ke4qqq
| and even the 'other dogs' that are included with RN post-publican
| 00:35
|
| ke4qqq
| s/dogs/docs/
| 00:35
|
| quaid
| *woof*
| 00:35
|
| Sparks
| IMO, we need BZ components for all active items not in the wiki... does that make sense?
| 00:36
|
| Sparks
| If we decide to sunset a project or move it to the wiki we should get rid of the component in BZ to prevent confusion.
| 00:37
|
| ke4qqq
| eg - we can't EOL docs-common til all of the docs that need docs-common
| 00:37
|
| Sparks
| yes... that makes sense
| 00:37
|
| ke4qqq
| are EOLed - which means at least another 12 months
| 00:37
|
| quaid
| but we can rename it
| 00:37
|
| ke4qqq
| yep
| 00:37
|
| Sparks
| okay. 48 more hours and then I'm taking an ax to things... :)
| 00:38
|
| Sparks
| make notes/updates on the page and let's take further discussion to the list.
| 00:39
|
| Sparks
| is that okay?
| 00:39
|
| ke4qqq
| worksforme
| 00:39
|
| quaid
| k
| 00:39
|
| Sparks
| This topic really started as a BZ clean up but turned out to be a clean up of Docs!
| 00:40
|
| Sparks
| Anyone have anything else before we move on?
| 00:40
|
| Sparks
| #topic CMS Update <-- ke4qqq
| 00:40
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: Zikula... talk to us!
| 00:41
|
| ke4qqq
| so lots of modules packaged
| 00:41
|
| ke4qqq
| a few hiccups (licensing)
| 00:42
|
| ke4qqq
| poelcat has volunteered to take the pm role
| 00:42
|
| ke4qqq
| but we haven't yet had an initial meeting
| 00:42
|
| quaid
| ?
| 00:42
|
| quaid
| I saw that traffic from John
| 00:42
|
| quaid
| and is that just for the docs.fp.o site?
| 00:42
|
| ke4qqq
| upstream has been very responsive to our concerns
| 00:42
|
| quaid
| Zikula++
| 00:42
|
| Sparks
| quaid: I think this is for getting the initial instance of Zikula up... which will be docs.fp.o.
| 00:43
|
| ke4qqq
| quaid: no this is for other fp.o uses as well I suppose
| 00:43
|
| quaid
| both! neither!
| 00:43
|
| ke4qqq
| so many groups have an interest
| 00:43
|
| Sparks
| yes
| 00:43
|
| Sparks
| Well...
| 00:43
|
| ke4qqq
| and so many parties are needed
| 00:43
|
| Sparks
| infra and art are needed initially to make sure everything is... perfect (like it would be any other way)
| 00:44
|
| quaid
| it would help if we made it clear that this is a step in a process that still includes hope.
| 00:44
|
| Sparks
| after that it should be an easy process to get other instances up and functioning
| 00:44
|
| quaid
| for the other teams involved; unless Infra/Websites wants to move in parallel, too
| 00:44
|
| ke4qqq
| and I am doing a poor job of getting it all done quite honestly, though Sparks has been packaging and stuff like a madman
| 00:44
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: give me keys and I'll drive us to California
| 00:45
|
| ke4qqq
| :)
| 00:45
|
| quaid
| this is a nice point for poelcat to step in; it's like a Fedora-ratchet, moving things along from doer to doer :)
| 00:45
|
| Sparks
| yes
| 00:46
|
| Sparks
| I think we'll be meeting the beginning of next week (I speculate)
| 00:46
|
| Sparks
| Anyone have anything else?
| 00:47
|
| Sparks
| #topic DocsProject wiki pages changes
| 00:47
|
| Sparks
| ianweller: you still around?
| 00:48
|
| Sparks
| ianweller: What's the status of getting wikibot out of the garage?
| 00:48
|
| * ke4qqq needs to duck out of the meeting - sorry can't stay longer.
| 00:48
|
| shaunm
| are you through your agenda items?
| 00:48
|
| Sparks
| ke4qqq: thanks for coming
| 00:48
|
| Sparks
| shaunm: about half way through the items... but the last half goes faster
| 00:48
|
| * Sparks thinks ianweller is MIA.
| 00:49
|
| shaunm
| I have something I'd like to discuss with the fedora docs team, but I don't want to interrupt your agenda
| 00:49
|
| Sparks
| shaunm: Can you stick around for another ten min?
| 00:49
|
| shaunm
| sure, no problem
| 00:49
|
| Sparks
| shaunm: cool
| 00:50
|
| Sparks
| #topic Status on Installation Guide
| 00:50
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Any updates on the IG?
| 00:50
|
| rudi
| Not much -- I'm working my way through the bug list and on some new material that engineers want incorporated
| 00:50
|
| rudi
| Still hope to have a revised edition ready in the next week or so
| 00:51
|
| rudi
| (but I think I said that last week)
| 00:51
|
| Sparks
| :)
| 00:52
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Cool. If you need anything just let me know.
| 00:52
|
| rudi
| Ta.
| 00:52
|
| Sparks
| Anyone have anything for the IG?
| 00:52
|
| Sparks
| #topic Status on Security Guide
| 00:53
|
| Sparks
| Well... I submitted a new package for review. I think he likes it.
| 00:53
|
| Sparks
| Have a couple of open tickets on transitioning some information from the wiki over to the guide.
| 00:54
|
| Sparks
| And I'd like to make mention of radsy's SELinux guides in the document, somewhere.
| 00:54
|
| Sparks
| radsy: do you have anything to add?
| 00:54
|
| radsy
| on the security guide?
| 00:54
|
| radsy
| no
| 00:54
|
| Sparks
| Anyone have anything?
| 00:54
|
| radsy
| it's not in my field of view right now
| 00:55
|
| Sparks
| #topic Status on SELinux Guides
| 00:55
|
| Sparks
| radsy: I'm guessing these are, though
| 00:55
|
| radsy
| i'm trying to beat publican into submission with the user-guide translations, and i'm working on mysql/squid for the services-guide.
| 00:56
|
| * Sparks offers his baseball bat
| 00:56
|
| Sparks
| radsy: If I can help with the translations (or anything) please let me knwo.
| 00:57
|
| Sparks
| I know that jjmcd has good experience with the translations, too (more than me) so he might be a good resource
| 00:57
|
| Sparks
| as soon as he returns from Germany
| 00:57
|
| Sparks
| Anyone have anything?
| 00:58
|
| Sparks
| #topic Status on User Guide <-- danielsmw & rudi
| 00:58
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Any changes to the UG?
| 00:58
|
| rudi
| Nothing on the radar for this one.
| 00:58
|
| Sparks
| Anyone have anything?
| 00:58
|
| quaid
| hmm
| 00:59
|
| quaid
| is that one being lead?
| 00:59
|
| Sparks
| quaid: which one? The UG? danielsmw and rudi are assigned to it
| 00:59
|
| quaid
| ok
| 00:59
|
| * Sparks notes he hasn't seen danielsmw around lately
| 00:59
|
| quaid
| sorry, was out of touch and missed that folks actually volunteered, bless 'em
| 01:00
|
| quaid
| I thought danielsmw took an LOA?
| 01:00
|
| Sparks
| did he?
| 01:00
|
| quaid
| or am I discombobulating him with jmtaylor?
| 01:00
|
| * Sparks will consult his notes after the meeting
| 01:00
|
| quaid
| sorry Matthew if I am
| 01:00
|
| Sparks
| Okay, anythign else on the UG?
| 01:00
|
| Sparks
| #topic New Guides
| 01:00
|
| Sparks
| Anyone working on or wanting to work on a new guide?
| 01:01
|
| rudi
| I plan to work on an Installation Quick Start Guide for F11
| 01:01
|
| rudi
| F12 rather
| 01:01
|
| Sparks
| cool
| 01:01
|
| quaid
| cool
| 01:01
|
| Sparks
| step one: put in DVD
| 01:01
|
| Sparks
| step two: press enter
| 01:01
|
| Sparks
| step three: walk away
| 01:02
|
| Sparks
| step four: return and enjoy Fedora goodness
| 01:02
|
| Sparks
| :)
| 01:02
|
| rudi
| Yeah; something very much like that :)
| 01:02
|
| Sparks
| there may be a few steps missing in there but... :)
| 01:02
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Do you need anyone to help you with this guide?
| 01:03
|
| rudi
| Sparks -- I'll know more once I have the chance to do some planning with it
| 01:03
|
| rudi
| I hope that I'll be able to reuse/condense content from some existing docs
| 01:03
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Okay. Just let me know.
| 01:03
|
| Sparks
| Anyone else?
| 01:03
|
| Sparks
| #topic All other busines
| 01:04
|
| Sparks
| Okay... Who has something they'd like to talk about?
| 01:04
|
| * shaunm raises his hand
| 01:04
|
| Sparks
| yes shaunm! :)
| 01:05
|
| shaunm
| yay!
| 01:05
|
| shaunm
| so there is a small group of people who are discussing coming together for a desktop help summit
| 01:05
|
| shaunm
| we have interested parties from gnome, kde, xfce, and ubuntu
| 01:05
|
| shaunm
| it's not a conference. it's a gathering of movers and shakers to bang out some common ground
| 01:06
|
| Sparks
| docs ground?
| 01:06
|
| shaunm
| I would very much like it if somebody from the fedora team could make it
| 01:06
|
| shaunm
| strictly docs, yes
| 01:06
|
| Sparks
| shaunm: I'm sure we can fill a slot.
| 01:06
|
| shaunm
| largely focused on desktop help. but if people find something interested to talk about for other types of documentation, I'm not going to shut them up
| 01:07
|
| shaunm
| *interesting
| 01:07
|
| rudi
| shaunm -- When and where?
| 01:07
|
| quaid
| I will caveat that being a starfish-type organization, it's hard to get one person who can speak for direction in terms of common ground ... depending.
| 01:07
|
| Sparks
| quaid: yes... but one person can at least be the liaison.
| 01:08
|
| quaid
| my experience is we all get together in person and have great ideas, but moving those through the projects is different.
| 01:08
|
| shaunm
| quaid: perfectly understood. but somebody who's involved with the fedora team can bring perspective that the rest of us don't have
| 01:08
|
| shaunm
| nod
| 01:08
|
| quaid
| I'm curious what thought there is toward virtual and widely inclusive v. physical and therefore exclusive?
| 01:08
|
| shaunm
| so I've offered to organize and host the event, and if I organize it, it will be in Champaign, IL, US
| 01:09
|
| shaunm
| and people seem to be perfectly happy to let me do that
| 01:09
|
| shaunm
| we're tentatively talking about august 21-23
| 01:09
|
| shaunm
| (I realize it's rather short notice)
| 01:09
|
| Sparks
| shaunm: Can you send me a message to sparks@fedoraproject.org with the details, please?
| 01:10
|
| shaunm
| yessir
| 01:10
|
| Sparks
| I'll forward the information to the list so we can figure it out on our end.
| 01:11
|
| shaunm
| great
| 01:11
|
| Sparks
| Anyone have anything else?
| 01:12
|
| Sparks
| 5
| 01:13
|
| Sparks
| 4
| 01:13
|
| scramer
| thank you
| 01:13
|
| Sparks
| 3
| 01:13
|
| Sparks
| scramer: no problem
| 01:13
|
| Sparks
| 2
| 01:13
|
| Sparks
| 1
| 01:13
|
| Sparks
| Thanks everyone for coming!
| 01:13
|
| Sparks
| #endmeeting
| 01:14
|
