Meetings:Kopers IRC log 20100331

skvidal	okay	10:59
skvidal	it's 2pm	10:59
skvidal	abadger1999: you here?	11:00
skvidal	spot: you around?	11:00
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* Oxf13 watches from the cheap seats		11:01
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* skvidal watches no one else be around		11:01
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skvidal	okay, so - here's what I've been working on this last week	11:01
skvidal	1. got a basis for how mock is going to do vm-based rebuilds. - essentially the command to generate the vm is just a config value	11:02
skvidal	2. so you generate the vm	11:02
skvidal	3. edit the disks using guestfish (or maybe in other incarnations other tools) to put the srpm and the mock config in a specific path	11:02
skvidal	4. when you boot the vm it has a simple python script I put together called auto-mock-build which is init scripts - it boots, builds the pkgs in mock in the vm, then writes them out in a specific path and exits	11:03
skvidal	5. mock fetches the results out of the vm disk using guestfish (or maybe another tool for other types of vms)	11:04
Oxf13	neat	11:04
skvidal	so - yah - that's actually working - though I've not figured out the nice way to put the mock commands/ configs in place	11:04
*** sankarshan_away is now known as sankarshan.		11:04
skvidal	a lot of that is just picking the least ugly which is something I tend to suck at sometimes	11:04
skvidal	so - another problem set i'm working on	11:04
skvidal	you have 20pkgs in a repo OUT THERE	11:04
skvidal	you have 2 new pkgs to add to that repo	11:04
* mizmo is here		11:04
skvidal	you do not want to sync down all the 20 pkgs	11:05
skvidal	add your 2 pkgs	11:05
skvidal	and run createrepo again	11:05
skvidal	so I'm working on something right now which grabs the repodata from OUT there, adds the 2 new pkgs to the repodata and gives you a dir/path with the repodata + the 2 new pkgs you can sync back up	11:05
* abadger1999 applauds		11:06
skvidal	this keeps us from beating up the site where we host the pkgs from having createrepo's run on it all the time	11:06
Oxf13	nice	11:06
skvidal	and it should, in theory, make for a useful tool by itself for folks NOT using ppas.	11:06
Oxf13	yeah it does sound useful	11:07
skvidal	It's going to take some testing but I believe our very own mr callaway has agreed to test this out once I'm figured out how to make it hard for him	11:07
skvidal	err, I mean - figured out how to make it easy and painless to use	11:07
skvidal	:-D	11:07
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skvidal	right now all I know for certain is	11:08
skvidal	I hope everyone likes relative paths to files	11:08
skvidal	b/c those are going to stick around	11:08
skvidal	:)	11:08
skvidal	okay, yah - I think I'm done for now	11:08
skvidal	adamw: ping	11:08
skvidal	adamw: did you get anything back from jono?	11:08
skvidal	or anyone suse-ish?	11:08
skvidal	susish?	11:09
skvidal	okie doke!	11:09
abadger1999	hehe.	11:09
* skvidal wonders if adamw is lunching it, yet		11:09
skvidal	abadger1999: you have something to show and tell?	11:09
abadger1999	A small bit.	11:10
abadger1999	I took a look at amqp for most of last week.	11:10
abadger1999	API wise it seems pretty good for transporting hte messages between a task scheduler and the task runners that will fulfill the jobs.	11:10
abadger1999	But the system administration of qpid (the amqp server that RH and apache is getting behind) isn't that great.	11:11
abadger1999	So I'm thinking of degsigning the first cut around func.	11:11
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spot	abadger1999: fwiw, it would be useful for you to document the limitations of qpid that you hit and send it along to that team	11:12
abadger1999	We'll have a build system piece that receives jobs from packagers -- mostly on the commandline but with a web server component so people can view builds and such.	11:12
abadger1999	spot: Yeah -- let me tlak to you afterwards about contact info for them.	11:12
spot	Red Hat is spending a non-zero amount of time and money on that technology, it would be good to be able to explain why we're not using it if someone asks. :)	11:12
abadger1999	The build system will decompose a request into a set of related tasks that it sends to the task scheduler.	11:13
abadger1999	The task scheduler will use func to farm out the jobs to builders and build new repositories when it's done.	11:13
abadger1999	Currently, I'm figuring out the best way to push the results of distinct tasks around -- srpms, build logs, built rpms, etc... I'm thinking using fixed paths on a networked filesystem might be best for that but I'm going to see what koji does.	11:15
abadger1999	Also; I just discovered that plague is still being used in a few more places than I thought so I'll take a look at who's using it today and see if we should work on enhancing that.	11:15
abadger1999	On the other end of this chain, end-users -- we talked with mizmo last week about how that should look.	11:16
abadger1999	mizmo: how did the information we gave you last week seem? Need more information?	11:16
skvidal	okay, crickets!	11:19
abadger1999	Yay!	11:19
skvidal	anyone have any new thoughts on the discussion from last week	11:19
skvidal	about the tradeoffs of offering hosting of this kind for what are ultimately 3rd party repos	11:19
mizmo	abadger1999: well, i haven't had time to do anything yet although i talked a bit with ajax & halfline about how ppa works to figure out how they might use such a thing	11:19
mizmo	oh i did do a very stupid start at a mock actually	11:20
mizmo	are there going to be dependencies allowed between repos?	11:20
skvidal	spot: a question I forgot to ask - the reason the chromium pkgs are not in fedora - even in rawhide - but are on fedorapeople is... - b/c of the bundled libraries?	11:21
abadger1999	mizmo: We were thinking there would be but I've been trying to decide if we could get away without it.	11:21
skvidal	mizmo: I don't entirely know how we can avoid them - if repos are only ever selfcontained then it just means we'll end up with a bunch of duplication of pkgs, won't we?	11:21
abadger1999	PPAs don't seem to have interrepo deps so it would be a place where we could either be better or be getting ourselves into hot water.	11:21
abadger1999	skvidal is correct about duplication of packages -- but it makes certain things easier to manage.	11:22
james_w	PPAs can have dependencies	11:22
skvidal	abadger1999: hmm - when you setup the ppa it looks like you can specify the builddep repos to call from	11:22
abadger1999	hmm..	11:22
spoleeba	james_w, across ppas?	11:22
skvidal	james_w: on other PPAs, right?	11:22
james_w	yes	11:22
james_w	not external archives	11:22
spoleeba	james_w, can you point to an example of that	11:22
mizmo	spoleeba: tons of them do	11:23
mizmo	we looked thru them before	11:23
mizmo	interPPA deps	11:23
james_w	spoleeba: no offhand	11:23
spoleeba	mizmo, hmm	11:23
halfline	skvidal: why is duplication of packages a bad thing here?	11:23
skvidal	abadger1999: look here https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA/BuildingASourcePackage	11:24
skvidal	and look at "Depending on other PPAs"	11:24
mizmo	skvidal: well if youre worried about disk space, heres a dumb idea. each repo is version controlled. lets say pkg perl-crap is in repo A. joe maintainer updates perl-crap v1 with perl-crap v2. but my awesome inkscape in repo B depends on perl-crap v1. so it links to the v1 version of the perl-crap repo A	11:24
halfline	the point is to have a little playground where the stuff you work on it destabilized and the stuff you depend on is rock solid, right?	11:24
skvidal	mizmo: I'm not worried about disk space	11:24
skvidal	I'm worried about this	11:24
skvidal	I have koper foo	11:24
skvidal	which I've copied a new gtk2 in from koper bar	11:24
spoleeba	mizmo, was that a by hand process where you spot checked ppas.. knowing how interconnected ppa-space now generally speaking would be instructive i think	11:25
abadger1999	skvidal: Ah okay -- must have missed that subsection.	11:25
skvidal	if I cannot have cross-koper deps - I have to do that	11:25
skvidal	so I have my local copy	11:25
mizmo	spoleeba: just went to the ppa web site and clicked on various repos	11:25
skvidal	and I build the pkgs I care about against it	11:25
skvidal	two weeks goes by	11:25
james_w	spoleeba: not very at a guess.	11:25
skvidal	the gtk2 ppa maintainer fixes a bug in her pkg	11:25
skvidal	and i never get the bug update in mine	11:25
mizmo	(thanks for the her)	11:25
abadger1999	halfline: That's one use case but not all of the use cases (unfortunately).	11:26
spoleeba	james_w, so tons of shallow interppa deps?	11:26
skvidal	meanwhile the users consuming my ppa are vulnerable to the bug	11:26
mizmo	skvidal: but the other case is, the gtk2 ppa maintainer adds some new thing that breaks my koper foo	11:26
james_w	spoleeba: the majority of PPAs currently only depend on the main archive I would think. I have no hard data on this though.	11:26
skvidal	mizmo: yep - but that kind of breakage isn't silent	11:26
mizmo	skvidal: what if, you depend on a particular version of the other koper. but when the other koper gets updated, you get a notification	11:26
mizmo	and can manually up	11:26
skvidal	mizmo: it breaks in flashy 'holy crap yum says this won't depsolve' ways - so at least you KNOW about it	11:26
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skvidal	anyway - I'm not saying this stops anything - I'm just saying it seems to me that cross-koper deps are going to be used and/or necessary	11:27
abadger1999	skvidal: Or not.... that's why I argue with java and python bundling people upstream.	11:27
skvidal	bundlin people?	11:27
skvidal	oh	11:28
skvidal	I see	11:28
abadger1999	skvidal: ie: foo-1.0 and foo-1.3 are fine for use with my package but foo-1.1 and 1.2 have runtime breakage.	11:28
skvidal	sorry, I read that sentence kinda sideways	11:28
mizmo	skvidal: if it breaks like that though, it should break before people pulling from the koper know about it	11:28
skvidal	mizmo: ??	11:28
mizmo	skvidal: eg break fantastically and spew crap at the maintainer but dont break people's systems	11:28
skvidal	how so?	11:28
james_w	so, one thing that PPAs don't do, is stack for the binary packages, it's just a dep for taking build deps from. That means if you require libfoo that is in Eve's PPA, it will build against it, but users have to add two entries to actually install.	11:28
mizmo	eg if im running awesome nightly build inkscape koper and it depends on crazy perl koper, and crazy perl goes crazy, i boot up in the morning and i cant get my job done	11:29
skvidal	mizmo: again - unless we're going to be running repoclosure for all possible combinations - it's not going to be easy to tell	11:29
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mizmo	skvidal: but you just said it breaks in obvious ways?	11:29
skvidal	to the end user	11:29
skvidal	it breaks b/c their yum update doesn't work	11:29
abadger1999	james_w: Oh, that's interesting to know. So the apt repository adding tools do or don't take care of that automatically?	11:29
skvidal	james_w: that's how it would be w/yum, too	11:30
skvidal	james_w: we don't have repository dependencies - though that's been discussed	11:30
spot	skvidal: yeah, chromium is out because of aggressive bundling	11:30
mizmo	skvidal: i guess what im trying to say is that their yum update shouldn't not work.	11:30
james_w	abadger1999: no, they could in theory with some more smarts add an entry for Eve's PPA too as you can get that information over the API.	11:30
abadger1999	<nod>	11:31
skvidal	mizmo: how can it not not work?	11:31
abadger1999	james_w, skvidal: For dealing with that I was thinking about dropping the koperFoo-release.rpm packages in a repo and having them dep on each other.	11:31
abadger1999	So the build deps would be reflected in the packages that hold the yum repository configs.	11:32
skvidal	abadger1999: at that point it's almost worth talking about a kopers yum plugin	11:32
abadger1999	<nod>	11:32
skvidal	abadger1999: so we could give the user the set of repos they want and the kopers those repos dep on	11:32
skvidal	w/o them have to explicitly enable them	11:32
skvidal	of course - that opens the user up to lots of interesting issues with Obsoletes	11:32
mizmo	skvidal: so to be able to say 'holy crap this wont depsolve', you have to run repoclosure?	11:32
abadger1999	Excellent. That's a problem I was deferring figuring out.	11:32
skvidal	mizmo: to be able to say that before we let the pkg out, yes	11:33
skvidal	mizmo: it's one of the things the autoqa people are doing for our full repos.	11:33
skvidal	mizmo: if we don't check the deps/provs/obsoletes in and out we cannot know that updates-release will depsolve with fedora	11:33
skvidal	abadger1999: sorry	11:33
adamw	skvidal: catching up from earlier - no, didn't hear back from jono yet. i'll ping him again.	11:33
james_w	so, one thing we haven't got it a way (as mizmo would probably like) to say "OMG! it's all broken today, get me back to the good state", partly because we don't support downgrades of packages. You are relying on the owners to fix it, or to re-upload the older version, quickly.	11:33
skvidal	but let's hold on a few minutes here	11:33
mizmo	skvidal: well... what if it worked based off of the maintainer's machine. the very potentially flawed assumption here is the maintainer actually uses her own koper but -	11:33
skvidal	mizmo: and then arch problems :)	11:34
skvidal	james_w:yum can downgrade	11:34
james_w	if you can get that then it makes these things more palatable for day-to-day usage.	11:34
mizmo	skvidal: a new version of something my koper depends on comes out. before my koper pulls in the new version, i get an email asking me to approve it. so i update to the new one. if it breaks, i dont allow it thru	11:34
skvidal	james_w: provided we can get the old pkg	11:34
skvidal	james_w: and yum history undo works pretty damned well, now	11:34
james_w	skvidal: apt /can/ downgrade, it's just that the results are undefined in a few cases, so it's not encouraged	11:34
james_w	great that you have that	11:34
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skvidal	james_w: right - downgrades are not fun	11:35
[Whois] james_w is ~james_w@jameswestby.net (James Westby)		11:35
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james_w	is it worth keeping superseded versions around for 24/48 hours to make that easier?	11:35
skvidal	adamw: thank you.	11:35
skvidal	james_w: keeping whatever around is really up to the repo maintainer, I'd guess	11:35
mizmo	james_w: yeh so what if the owners get broke, and disallow the breakage to hit the users	11:35
skvidal	spot: how many builds of chromium do you keep around?	11:35
james_w	skvidal: ah, I didn't realise it was a manual process to remove them	11:36
skvidal	james_w: it's an entirely future process	11:36
james_w	ah	11:36
skvidal	james_w: ie - we haven't defined the removal process yet	11:36
skvidal	james_w: so, you're not wrong - nor are you right :)	11:36
skvidal	james_w: unless you want to implement it - then you're 100% right :)	11:36
skvidal	james_w: and your code is welcome	11:36
james_w	in PPAs, older packages are garbage collected after a few hours, but immediately removed from the indices, so apt can't see them	11:37
skvidal	james_w: very useful to know	11:37
skvidal	thanks	11:37
skvidal	james_w: do you know anything about other common problems folks have run into w/ppas?	11:38
james_w	skvidal: I tried to comment on your blog to suggest distributions@lists.freedesktop.org to get some feedback from other distros, but it seems my browser ate my comment.	11:38
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skvidal	i will	11:40
james_w	most of the problems that people have are from automated packaging: scripts that stuff the packaging from yesterday in to todays tip of upstream VCS.	11:40
spoleeba	james_w, does suse's build service do the equivalent of cross repository deps?	11:40
james_w	which is clearly not going to go well on occaision	11:40
spot	skvidal: right now, just the latest	11:40
james_w	spoleeba: no idea, sorry	11:40
spot	skvidal: but for a while there, i was also keeping the previous build for each target	11:40
james_w	one thing we do is to disable external repos on upgrade to a new release, which stops the problems of external packages from at least one end of the upgrade.	11:41
james_w	but I don't think we're far enough along yet to start seeing the real issues from that sort of thing	11:41
skvidal	james_w: but trips you up on the other end, doesn't it?	11:41
james_w	skvidal: it obviously can do, but there's little we can do about that	11:42
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james_w	I would say that a lot of use is single upload repos that just fix a bug in some package. This is useful for getting feedback from bug reporters and the like.	11:42
* abadger1999 fully expects some packager to start packaging glibc w/ crazy optimizations and an epoch in a PPA.		11:42
skvidal	abadger1999: ensc	11:43
james_w	there's also ones that enable some wacky feature that the distro won't support or similar	11:43
abadger1999	heh -- well, he might not be a crazy optimization guy but his repos will be crazy in a different way :-)	11:43
james_w	and then the new release type ones that pull in code (manually or automatically) from newer upstream	11:43
james_w	they are the ones that cause the most issues	11:43
james_w	but it's very clear that if you enable them you have to deal with the fallout	11:44
james_w	but it obviously doesn't mean that everyone understands why something broke	11:44
abadger1999	james_w: Do you have some method to separate out those types of repos from others? Or is it just word of mouth that some repos are crazier than others?	11:44
james_w	there's just a freeform description on each one	11:44
skvidal	abadger1999: I can think of a couple of ways	11:44
mizmo	it would be nice to attach a sort of badge to the repos	11:44
skvidal	abadger1999: if a repo contains things like glibc or rpm or yum, it gets progressively chancier	11:45
james_w	they aren't really listed by type or anything, usually people hear about them from links on the forums etc.	11:45
abadger1999	mizmo: Thinkin' the same thing :-)	11:45
james_w	mizmo: I like that idea.	11:45
skvidal	abadger1999: hell a programmatic way would be to see if the items in your ppa/koper are depended on deeply or by a significant number of things in the main tree	11:45
spot	or something as simple as an indicator of "does not replace anything in main tree"	11:46
spot	e.g. chromium repo	11:46
skvidal	s/main tree/critpath/	11:46
spot	sure.	11:46
spoleeba	yes the suse build service does have cross repo deps... and a new concept called a pattern	11:46
abadger1999	mizmo: Also -- if we did run things like repoclosure, how often does repoclosure break for this repo?	11:46
james_w	do you have the concept of one repo superseding another, or is the comparison done mainly on version numbers?	11:47
abadger1999	mizmo: Maybe also user feedback.	11:47
skvidal	abadger1999: running repoclosure on N repos is going to get pricey	11:47
skvidal	james_w: not repos, no	11:47
skvidal	james_w: just pkgs	11:47
mizmo	the badges i think would be: (1) optimization of something (2) changing a distro default (3) nightly build for major fans of a package (4) developer wanting people to test something (5) add on software that isn't available in distro	11:47
abadger1999	skvidal: On N repos or between N repos?	11:47
skvidal	abadger1999: yes	11:47
mizmo	(6) infrastructure boxes stuff	11:47
mizmo	abadger1999: yeh i was thinking you could have a forum	11:47
mizmo	abadger1999: and recommended repos other people like you use	11:47
mizmo	ill upload my mockup although its got almost nothing in it	11:48
james_w	skvidal: right, so one of the difficulties is that some people sometimes get version numbers wrong, as it's really hard to write documentation that tells you how to pick a version number that will give you the desired behaviour.	11:48
skvidal	version numbers of their pkgs?	11:48
james_w	yeah	11:48
mizmo	http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/kopers.png	11:48
skvidal	james_w: we actually have a tool to test if your version number is newer/older than another	11:48
mizmo	see the heart is the 'badge'	11:48
mizmo	and there's a listing of who is using the repo	11:48
skvidal	james_w: it's in the fedora packager pkg	11:48
mizmo	and other repos you might want based on that one	11:48
mizmo	i was gonna do a forum or something in the space under the badge	11:49
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james_w	skvidal: we do, but you are testing against the possible versions that will appear in an unknown number of repos at any point in the future	11:49
skvidal	james_w: oh - I see what you mean	11:49
skvidal	james_w: yah - and who knows what you're going to get	11:49
abadger1999	<nod>	11:49
abadger1999	skvidal, james_w: It's in rpmdevtools	11:49
abadger1999	rpmdev-vercmp	11:50
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abadger1999	mizmo: Nice start!	11:50
skvidal	abadger1999: yah - what's he's talking about won't be solved by that, though :)	11:50
abadger1999	<nod>	11:50
mizmo	if we have rpms for installing the repos it would be cool to use the firefox package kit plugin for one click install	11:51
skvidal	so	11:51
skvidal	right now	11:51
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skvidal	I'm inclined to believe that most repos	11:51
skvidal	will be one-off pkgs	11:51
skvidal	weird rebuild cases	11:51
skvidal	and stuff like chromium	11:52
skvidal	and that the complicated cases we're worrying about will happen	11:52
skvidal	but will be less common	11:52
abadger1999	spot: Wuestion: Have you ever needed to pull in and replace a Fedora package with a newer/older/some other version in order to get a working chromium?	11:52
skvidal	does anyone disagree with that basic assessment?	11:52
spot	abadger1999: yep, but i did it in a way that did not conflict with the base fedora package	11:52
abadger1999	spoleeba: Or for that matter, changed chromium's source code but a lesser programmer might have taken an easier way out?	11:52
spot	abadger1999: see icu42 in F-11: http://spot.fedorapeople.org/chromium/F11/	11:53
skvidal	hmm	11:53
drago01_	skvidal: are we going to allow everything or only stuff that can be in fedora?	11:53
skvidal	I hadn't thought about doing this	11:53
drago01_	(patents)	11:53
spot	abadger1999: uh, yeah, a lesser programmer would have left all of the bundling intact.	11:53
skvidal	drago01: if there are things that are illegal to ship in fedora, they are illegal to ship in a personal repo hosted by fedora	11:54
mizmo	maybe we should do a survey of fedora package maintainers who maintain repos in their fedora people space to see what they're doing 'em for	11:54
skvidal	spot: correct me if I'm wrong on there - but we cannot host patent-infringing sw anymore than we can distribute it, can we?	11:54
spot	skvidal: that's right.	11:54
mizmo	just to get a rough guesstimate of the percentages of which ones would cause problems	11:54
skvidal	mizmo: I was actually doing that directly	11:54
abadger1999	skvidal: I think I agree with you in terms of repos by quantity -- not sure about repos by package quantity.	11:54
mizmo	oh okay cool	11:54
skvidal	mizmo: find -name repodata on people1	11:54
drago01_	skvidal: ok, so it won't end up with "a rebuild of foo with x,y and z" enabled	11:54
mizmo	lol great minds think alike but greater minds think faster :)	11:54
skvidal	mizmo: gonna get a list of all repos out there	11:55
skvidal	the legal cases will have to be handled by legal and then addressed by admins in fedora	11:55
skvidal	so - there are 390 repos on fedorapeople.org	11:55
mizmo	daaamn	11:56
abadger1999	drago01_: Where x,y, and z == patent encumbered, yeah... but where z,y,and z == an added dep that we didn't want to end up on the livecd or a config option that we just don't turn on because we don't like it, yeah it could.	11:56
skvidal	mizmo: hosted by 66 users	11:56
abadger1999	drago01_: Like if someone wanted to make a system that ran with initng instead of upstart in sysv compat mode, they might rebuild packages with a different set of init scripts.	11:57
skvidal	I can email these users and ask them what's in their repo and why.	11:57
drago01_	abadger1999: ok	11:57
skvidal	mizmo: let's be fair - 390 'repodata' directories - how many of those are actual repos, I don't know..	11:58
skvidal	mizmo: like 5 of them are mine and those are make yum explode repos	11:59
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skvidal	so I guess this makes a good 'actionitem'	11:59
skvidal	I'll email these folks and ask what's in their repos, how do they maintain them, and what would actually help them maintain them	12:00
skvidal	and see what we get back	12:00
drago01	abadger1999: but we don't have any reviews to make sure that this is the case	12:01
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drago01	abadger1999: i.e stuff can be removed once known but we don't have a "pre check" like we do have for fedora packages	12:01
abadger1999	drago01: Yeah -- spot, are we going to go on a -- "someone reported that package Foo has patent encumbered code, we need to remove it" system?	12:02
skvidal	abadger1999: I believe that was the plan	12:02
skvidal	abadger1999: enforce as reported	12:02
* abadger1999 notes we're at an hour		12:02
spot	abadger1999: yeah, probably with me doing basic sanity checks from time to time	12:02
spot	e.g. ffmpeg is obviously not acceptable.	12:03
abadger1999	mizmo: Oh -- another badge/metric could be: maintained by the same people who maintain in Fedora.	12:03
skvidal	james_w: another question if you have a moment	12:03
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james_w	sure	12:03
skvidal	james_w: do you ever see issues with folks being confused where a package came from and if it is an official ubuntu pkg or not?	12:04
skvidal	think of it as a branding problem	12:04
drago01	skvidal: and what about $randomclosessourceapp ... do we have a policy here?	12:04
drago01	(assume no legal issues)	12:04
skvidal	drago01: random closed source is illegal	12:04
drago01	skvidal: my point is that this could end up as a dumping ground for stuff that can't go into fedora	12:05
abadger1999	skvidal: But not, say -- distributable closed source.	12:05
james_w	skvidal: not in my experience. For the most part people that use PPAs are the people that track all that stuff anyway. We have checks in apport that stop them filing bugs against the official package and things like that.	12:05
skvidal	drago01: yes, I think that is possible.	12:05
abadger1999	spot: ? Have an idea on that?	12:05
drago01	skvidal: what? being closed does not mean not legaly distributable	12:05
spot	drago01: for now, i'd rather focus on stuff that meets the licensing guidelines. if there is pent up demand for packaging junk which isn't free or doesn't have source, we can revisit it.	12:05
skvidal	james_w: fair enough	12:05
abadger1999	spot: i guess we're setting this up, though, in the opposite way -- do we want to spend energy keeping it out?	12:06
mizmo	abadger1999: oh yeh thats an awesome idea	12:06
spot	abadger1999: eh, only to the extent that we should check the spec for license tag compliance.	12:06
abadger1999	Okay.	12:07
spot	and yes, i realize how trivial that is to bypass, but most folks won't, and it will likely be noticed if they do it.	12:07
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skvidal	okay.	12:08
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skvidal	so as to my earlier statement	12:08
skvidal	is anyone convinced we're going to see too many problems to proceed?	12:09
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skvidal	b/c I'm not convinced we are going to see too many problems, yet, though I reserve the right to be wrong later :)	12:09
* spot is not convinced of that, but is not going to ram it forward if others think that it is		12:09
mizmo	i have a question. what if say amazon wanted to build a version of their (closed source) mp3 downloader for fedora. is this something they could use?	12:09
skvidal	mizmo: to build it? or to host it?	12:10
mizmo	skvidal: to build it	12:10
skvidal	I'd like to think that amazon has their own systems that can run mock	12:10
drago01	mizmo: didn't we just talk about that?	12:10
drago01	oh	12:10
spot	mizmo: from a technology perspective, possibly, but our policies wouldn't permit it.	12:10
mizmo	drago01 sorry if i missed it i saw closed source not allowed skimming it	12:10
mizmo	im just scared because more and more i see our distro not being supported for 3rd party apps like that	12:11
abadger1999	i'm not convinced we'll see too many problems but wants us to message that this is a system for people who have a tolerance for breakage and dead-ends of development.	12:11
drago01	mizmo: no this was about hosting not (ab)using the build infrastructure	12:11
mizmo	fedora as a platform to third party app devels isnt so attractive it would be nice if this could help solve that problem but i understand if its out of scope too	12:11
skvidal	mizmo: this doesn't really help longterm interfaces	12:12
abadger1999	mizmo: I'm not sure if the build system I was envisioning would aid them in doing that but I can see if there's anyway I could.	12:12
drago01	mizmo: yeah being a (fast) moving target is the primary cause imo	12:12
skvidal	mizmo: nor does it make anything better if their app requires older/newer items	12:12
mizmo	well other distros make it easier too	12:12
skvidal	mizmo: make it easier, how?	12:12
mizmo	there is some movie player thing,	12:12
mizmo	and they only offer an ubuntu deb	12:12
mizmo	and i filed a ticket with customer support	12:12
mizmo	and they were really nasty to me saying it was too hard to build for fedora	12:12
mizmo	so they wont even bother	12:12
mizmo	i cant think of the name of it...	12:13
skvidal	mizmo: any specifics?	12:13
skvidal	mizmo: as to why fedora was hard to build for? or was it 'does not stay the same for long enough'	12:13
mizmo	if i could remember the stupid name of it i could pull up the email by search	12:13
spoleeba	mizmo, i would have thought that Suse build system solved this particular problem for 3rd party app developers who want to distribute from their own site	12:13
mizmo	i think they more said, ubuntu made it easier	12:13
skvidal	b/c that latter concern is valid and beyond changing the support lifespan of the distro we're out of luck	12:13
mizmo	and didnt complain about our specific problems	12:14
drago01	skvidal: not breaking ABI/API _during_ the lifecycle would be a start	12:14
skvidal	drago01: sure	12:14
skvidal	mizmo: if you can find the mail, I'd love to hear more	12:14
skvidal	mizmo: but my suspicion is that the problem is lifecycle-related	12:15
spoleeba	mizmo, is amazon even using a PPA?	12:15
skvidal	mizmo: but, again, I'm fine with being wrong there	12:15
spoleeba	mizmo, or are they building locally and distributing locally?	12:15
skvidal	looks like locally	12:16
spoleeba	skvidal, so if mock isnt easy enough...i dont know how it gets easier	12:16
mizmo	spoleeba: i dont know how they build but the debs were on their own website	12:16
drago01	well google does ship rpms	12:17
drago01	even a repo afaik	12:17
skvidal	but we're getting a bit off in the weeds here	12:17
drago01	adobe has a yum repo too	12:17
skvidal	mizmo: if you can find the email - let us know about it, okay?	12:17
mizmo	sorry about that its my fault	12:17
skvidal	drago01: yep	12:17
mizmo	i will	12:17
mizmo	it was an app like miro... but closed source... argh	12:17
skvidal	boxeetv?	12:18
skvidal	they only have ubuntu pkgs	12:18
mizmo	yes! that was it	12:18
spoleeba	mizmo, its a good point.. if the kopers stuff can be replicated easily so third parties can set up their own repos....but that's a bigger commitment than just one package on one website	12:18
mizmo	grr i cant find the damn email though	12:19
skvidal	wow	12:19
skvidal	so the boxee tv deb	12:19
skvidal	is 54mb	12:19
spoleeba	skvidal, does it have any...deps	12:19
drago01	mizmo: write a new one ;)	12:19
mizmo	hehe	12:20
spoleeba	skvidal, sounds like something alien could covert without loss of fidelity	12:20
drago01	spoleeba: didn't someone package dbpkg for fedora ;)	12:20
skvidal	righto	12:20
skvidal	so <shrug>	12:22
skvidal	no idea on why boxee is easier to pkg for ubuntu than fedora - and speculation is not gonna help much	12:22
drago01	yeah it might be even as trival as we are not shipping al required deps	12:23
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drago01	but the large package size makes that unlikl	12:23
drago01	y	12:23
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skvidal	drago01: who knows	12:23
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skvidal	mizmo: if you can't find the email - would you be willing to email them again?	12:24
mizmo	skvidal: sure	12:24
drago01	skvidal: yeah I don't think we are going anywhere by speculating ...	12:24
skvidal	ok	12:24
skvidal	mizmo: thx	12:25
skvidal	james_w: just wanted to say thanks for the input - it's been helpful	12:25
skvidal	anyone have anything else?	12:25
james_w	np	12:25
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mizmo	i justed emailed them	12:25
skvidal	mizmo: for great justed	12:26
skvidal	abadger1999: you have anything else you wanted to ask/cover/talk about?	12:26
mizmo	hehe	12:26
abadger1999	Noe, all set.	12:26
skvidal	okie doke	12:27
skvidal	thanks for coming along and discussing everyone	12:27
abadger1999	Oh -- one thing -- we need a name	12:27
abadger1999	I want to start throwing code on fedorahosted.	12:28
skvidal	not to be obvious but	12:28
skvidal	fpr?	12:28
skvidal	fedora personal repo?	12:28
Southern_Gentlem	derby?	12:28
skvidal	hmm - should fedora be left out?	12:28
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abadger1999	they aren't really personal and ... yes, I'd leave fedora out.	12:28
skvidal	abadger1999: arbitrary package builds?	12:29
abadger1999	apb is already the name of a java build system so there might be some confusion in that space.	12:29
skvidal	ah	12:29
jwb	s/builds/repos	12:29
skvidal	jwb: apr is REALLY already used by apache iirc	12:30
skvidal	Summary  : Apache Portable Runtime library	12:30
skvidal	URL  : http://apr.apache.org/	12:30
jwb	what was wrong with kopers	12:30
skvidal	they aren't koji based	12:30
skvidal	so the ko doesn't work so much	12:30
abadger1999	We're not building with koji, and they aren't really personal.	12:30
jwb	kewl other package repos	12:30
skvidal	tbnr - to be named repos?	12:30
skvidal	kopr :)	12:31
skvidal	cute	12:31
abadger1999	:-)	12:31
* skvidal doesn't much care		12:31
skvidal	spot: you got a preference here?	12:31
spot	hey, he who writes it gets to name it.	12:32
abadger1999	kewl other package repos catches the spirit of what we're doing best so far.	12:32
dgilmore	dlrr	12:32
skvidal	abadger1999: worksforme->closed	12:32
abadger1999	I have access to fas so I guess I can go with that and perform the rename if I need to.	12:32
skvidal	dgilmore: did you have stroke?	12:33
dgilmore	dirty little rpm repo	12:33
abadger1999	hahah	12:33
spot	man, that is begging to be lolcatted	12:33
spot	"did you have stroke?"	12:33
dgilmore	skvidal: :)	12:33
* skvidal decides it is in his best interest to find another thing to look at		12:34

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