Meetings:Kopers IRC log 20100331

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skvidal okay 10:59
skvidal it's 2pm 10:59
skvidal abadger1999: you here? 11:00
skvidal spot: you around? 11:00
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* Oxf13 watches from the cheap seats 11:01
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* skvidal watches no one else be around 11:01
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skvidal okay, so - here's what I've been working on this last week 11:01
skvidal 1. got a basis for how mock is going to do vm-based rebuilds. - essentially the command to generate the vm is just a config value 11:02
skvidal 2. so you generate the vm 11:02
skvidal 3. edit the disks using guestfish (or maybe in other incarnations other tools) to put the srpm and the mock config in a specific path 11:02
skvidal 4. when you boot the vm it has a simple python script I put together called auto-mock-build which is init scripts - it boots, builds the pkgs in mock in the vm, then writes them out in a specific path and exits 11:03
skvidal 5. mock fetches the results out of the vm disk using guestfish (or maybe another tool for other types of vms) 11:04
Oxf13 neat 11:04
skvidal so - yah - that's actually working - though I've not figured out the nice way to put the mock commands/ configs in place 11:04
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skvidal a lot of that is just picking the least ugly which is something I tend to suck at sometimes 11:04
skvidal so - another problem set i'm working on 11:04
skvidal you have 20pkgs in a repo OUT THERE 11:04
skvidal you have 2 new pkgs to add to that repo 11:04
* mizmo is here 11:04
skvidal you do not want to sync down all the 20 pkgs 11:05
skvidal add your 2 pkgs 11:05
skvidal and run createrepo again 11:05
skvidal so I'm working on something right now which grabs the repodata from OUT there, adds the 2 new pkgs to the repodata and gives you a dir/path with the repodata + the 2 new pkgs you can sync back up 11:05
* abadger1999 applauds 11:06
skvidal this keeps us from beating up the site where we host the pkgs from having createrepo's run on it all the time 11:06
Oxf13 nice 11:06
skvidal and it should, in theory, make for a useful tool by itself for folks NOT using ppas. 11:06
Oxf13 yeah it does sound useful 11:07
skvidal It's going to take some testing but I believe our very own mr callaway has agreed to test this out once I'm figured out how to make it hard for him 11:07
skvidal err, I mean - figured out how to make it easy and painless to use 11:07
skvidal  :-D 11:07
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skvidal right now all I know for certain is 11:08
skvidal I hope everyone likes relative paths to files 11:08
skvidal b/c those are going to stick around 11:08
skvidal  :) 11:08
skvidal okay, yah - I think I'm done for now 11:08
skvidal adamw: ping 11:08
skvidal adamw: did you get anything back from jono? 11:08
skvidal or anyone suse-ish? 11:08
skvidal susish? 11:09
skvidal okie doke! 11:09
abadger1999 hehe. 11:09
* skvidal wonders if adamw is lunching it, yet 11:09
skvidal abadger1999: you have something to show and tell? 11:09
abadger1999 A small bit. 11:10
abadger1999 I took a look at amqp for most of last week. 11:10
abadger1999 API wise it seems pretty good for transporting hte messages between a task scheduler and the task runners that will fulfill the jobs. 11:10
abadger1999 But the system administration of qpid (the amqp server that RH and apache is getting behind) isn't that great. 11:11
abadger1999 So I'm thinking of degsigning the first cut around func. 11:11
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spot abadger1999: fwiw, it would be useful for you to document the limitations of qpid that you hit and send it along to that team 11:12
abadger1999 We'll have a build system piece that receives jobs from packagers -- mostly on the commandline but with a web server component so people can view builds and such. 11:12
abadger1999 spot: Yeah -- let me tlak to you afterwards about contact info for them. 11:12
spot Red Hat is spending a non-zero amount of time and money on that technology, it would be good to be able to explain why we're not using it if someone asks. :) 11:12
abadger1999 The build system will decompose a request into a set of related tasks that it sends to the task scheduler. 11:13
abadger1999 The task scheduler will use func to farm out the jobs to builders and build new repositories when it's done. 11:13
abadger1999 Currently, I'm figuring out the best way to push the results of distinct tasks around -- srpms, build logs, built rpms, etc... I'm thinking using fixed paths on a networked filesystem might be best for that but I'm going to see what koji does. 11:15
abadger1999 Also; I just discovered that plague is still being used in a few more places than I thought so I'll take a look at who's using it today and see if we should work on enhancing that. 11:15
abadger1999 On the other end of this chain, end-users -- we talked with mizmo last week about how that should look. 11:16
abadger1999 mizmo: how did the information we gave you last week seem? Need more information? 11:16
skvidal okay, crickets! 11:19
abadger1999 Yay! 11:19
skvidal anyone have any new thoughts on the discussion from last week 11:19
skvidal about the tradeoffs of offering hosting of this kind for what are ultimately 3rd party repos 11:19
mizmo abadger1999: well, i haven't had time to do anything yet although i talked a bit with ajax & halfline about how ppa works to figure out how they might use such a thing 11:19
mizmo oh i did do a very stupid start at a mock actually 11:20
mizmo are there going to be dependencies allowed between repos? 11:20
skvidal spot: a question I forgot to ask - the reason the chromium pkgs are not in fedora - even in rawhide - but are on fedorapeople is... - b/c of the bundled libraries? 11:21
abadger1999 mizmo: We were thinking there would be but I've been trying to decide if we could get away without it. 11:21
skvidal mizmo: I don't entirely know how we can avoid them - if repos are only ever selfcontained then it just means we'll end up with a bunch of duplication of pkgs, won't we? 11:21
abadger1999 PPAs don't seem to have interrepo deps so it would be a place where we could either be better or be getting ourselves into hot water. 11:21
abadger1999 skvidal is correct about duplication of packages -- but it makes certain things easier to manage. 11:22
james_w PPAs can have dependencies 11:22
skvidal abadger1999: hmm - when you setup the ppa it looks like you can specify the builddep repos to call from 11:22
abadger1999 hmm.. 11:22
spoleeba james_w, across ppas? 11:22
skvidal james_w: on other PPAs, right? 11:22
james_w yes 11:22
james_w not external archives 11:22
spoleeba james_w, can you point to an example of that 11:22
mizmo spoleeba: tons of them do 11:23
mizmo we looked thru them before 11:23
mizmo interPPA deps 11:23
james_w spoleeba: no offhand 11:23
spoleeba mizmo, hmm 11:23
halfline skvidal: why is duplication of packages a bad thing here? 11:23
skvidal abadger1999: look here https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA/BuildingASourcePackage 11:24
skvidal and look at "Depending on other PPAs" 11:24
mizmo skvidal: well if youre worried about disk space, heres a dumb idea. each repo is version controlled. lets say pkg perl-crap is in repo A. joe maintainer updates perl-crap v1 with perl-crap v2. but my awesome inkscape in repo B depends on perl-crap v1. so it links to the v1 version of the perl-crap repo A 11:24
halfline the point is to have a little playground where the stuff you work on it destabilized and the stuff you depend on is rock solid, right? 11:24
skvidal mizmo: I'm not worried about disk space 11:24
skvidal I'm worried about this 11:24
skvidal I have koper foo 11:24
skvidal which I've copied a new gtk2 in from koper bar 11:24
spoleeba mizmo, was that a by hand process where you spot checked ppas.. knowing how interconnected ppa-space now generally speaking would be instructive i think 11:25
abadger1999 skvidal: Ah okay -- must have missed that subsection. 11:25
skvidal if I cannot have cross-koper deps - I have to do that 11:25
skvidal so I have my local copy 11:25
mizmo spoleeba: just went to the ppa web site and clicked on various repos 11:25
skvidal and I build the pkgs I care about against it 11:25
skvidal two weeks goes by 11:25
james_w spoleeba: not very at a guess. 11:25
skvidal the gtk2 ppa maintainer fixes a bug in her pkg 11:25
skvidal and i never get the bug update in mine 11:25
mizmo (thanks for the her) 11:25
abadger1999 halfline: That's one use case but not all of the use cases (unfortunately). 11:26
spoleeba james_w, so tons of shallow interppa deps? 11:26
skvidal meanwhile the users consuming my ppa are vulnerable to the bug 11:26
mizmo skvidal: but the other case is, the gtk2 ppa maintainer adds some new thing that breaks my koper foo 11:26
james_w spoleeba: the majority of PPAs currently only depend on the main archive I would think. I have no hard data on this though. 11:26
skvidal mizmo: yep - but that kind of breakage isn't silent 11:26
mizmo skvidal: what if, you depend on a particular version of the other koper. but when the other koper gets updated, you get a notification 11:26
mizmo and can manually up 11:26
skvidal mizmo: it breaks in flashy 'holy crap yum says this won't depsolve' ways - so at least you KNOW about it 11:26
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skvidal anyway - I'm not saying this stops anything - I'm just saying it seems to me that cross-koper deps are going to be used and/or necessary 11:27
abadger1999 skvidal: Or not.... that's why I argue with java and python bundling people upstream. 11:27
skvidal bundlin people? 11:27
skvidal oh 11:28
skvidal I see 11:28
abadger1999 skvidal: ie: foo-1.0 and foo-1.3 are fine for use with my package but foo-1.1 and 1.2 have runtime breakage. 11:28
skvidal sorry, I read that sentence kinda sideways 11:28
mizmo skvidal: if it breaks like that though, it should break before people pulling from the koper know about it 11:28
skvidal mizmo: ?? 11:28
mizmo skvidal: eg break fantastically and spew crap at the maintainer but dont break people's systems 11:28
skvidal how so? 11:28
james_w so, one thing that PPAs don't do, is stack for the binary packages, it's just a dep for taking build deps from. That means if you require libfoo that is in Eve's PPA, it will build against it, but users have to add two entries to actually install. 11:28
mizmo eg if im running awesome nightly build inkscape koper and it depends on crazy perl koper, and crazy perl goes crazy, i boot up in the morning and i cant get my job done 11:29
skvidal mizmo: again - unless we're going to be running repoclosure for all possible combinations - it's not going to be easy to tell 11:29
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mizmo skvidal: but you just said it breaks in obvious ways? 11:29
skvidal to the end user 11:29
skvidal it breaks b/c their yum update doesn't work 11:29
abadger1999 james_w: Oh, that's interesting to know. So the apt repository adding tools do or don't take care of that automatically? 11:29
skvidal james_w: that's how it would be w/yum, too 11:30
skvidal james_w: we don't have repository dependencies - though that's been discussed 11:30
spot skvidal: yeah, chromium is out because of aggressive bundling 11:30
mizmo skvidal: i guess what im trying to say is that their yum update shouldn't not work. 11:30
james_w abadger1999: no, they could in theory with some more smarts add an entry for Eve's PPA too as you can get that information over the API. 11:30
abadger1999 <nod> 11:31
skvidal mizmo: how can it not not work? 11:31
abadger1999 james_w, skvidal: For dealing with that I was thinking about dropping the koperFoo-release.rpm packages in a repo and having them dep on each other. 11:31
abadger1999 So the build deps would be reflected in the packages that hold the yum repository configs. 11:32
skvidal abadger1999: at that point it's almost worth talking about a kopers yum plugin 11:32
abadger1999 <nod> 11:32
skvidal abadger1999: so we could give the user the set of repos they want and the kopers those repos dep on 11:32
skvidal w/o them have to explicitly enable them 11:32
skvidal of course - that opens the user up to lots of interesting issues with Obsoletes 11:32
mizmo skvidal: so to be able to say 'holy crap this wont depsolve', you have to run repoclosure? 11:32
abadger1999 Excellent. That's a problem I was deferring figuring out. 11:32
skvidal mizmo: to be able to say that before we let the pkg out, yes 11:33
skvidal mizmo: it's one of the things the autoqa people are doing for our full repos. 11:33
skvidal mizmo: if we don't check the deps/provs/obsoletes in and out we cannot know that updates-release will depsolve with fedora 11:33
skvidal abadger1999: sorry 11:33
adamw skvidal: catching up from earlier - no, didn't hear back from jono yet. i'll ping him again. 11:33
james_w so, one thing we haven't got it a way (as mizmo would probably like) to say "OMG! it's all broken today, get me back to the good state", partly because we don't support downgrades of packages. You are relying on the owners to fix it, or to re-upload the older version, quickly. 11:33
skvidal but let's hold on a few minutes here 11:33
mizmo skvidal: well... what if it worked based off of the maintainer's machine. the very potentially flawed assumption here is the maintainer actually uses her own koper but - 11:33
skvidal mizmo: and then arch problems :) 11:34
skvidal james_w:yum can downgrade 11:34
james_w if you can get that then it makes these things more palatable for day-to-day usage. 11:34
mizmo skvidal: a new version of something my koper depends on comes out. before my koper pulls in the new version, i get an email asking me to approve it. so i update to the new one. if it breaks, i dont allow it thru 11:34
skvidal james_w: provided we can get the old pkg 11:34
skvidal james_w: and yum history undo works pretty damned well, now 11:34
james_w skvidal: apt /can/ downgrade, it's just that the results are undefined in a few cases, so it's not encouraged 11:34
james_w great that you have that 11:34
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skvidal james_w: right - downgrades are not fun 11:35
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james_w is it worth keeping superseded versions around for 24/48 hours to make that easier? 11:35
skvidal adamw: thank you. 11:35
skvidal james_w: keeping whatever around is really up to the repo maintainer, I'd guess 11:35
mizmo james_w: yeh so what if the owners get broke, and disallow the breakage to hit the users 11:35
skvidal spot: how many builds of chromium do you keep around? 11:35
james_w skvidal: ah, I didn't realise it was a manual process to remove them 11:36
skvidal james_w: it's an entirely future process 11:36
james_w ah 11:36
skvidal james_w: ie - we haven't defined the removal process yet 11:36
skvidal james_w: so, you're not wrong - nor are you right :) 11:36
skvidal james_w: unless you want to implement it - then you're 100% right :) 11:36
skvidal james_w: and your code is welcome 11:36
james_w in PPAs, older packages are garbage collected after a few hours, but immediately removed from the indices, so apt can't see them 11:37
skvidal james_w: very useful to know 11:37
skvidal thanks 11:37
skvidal james_w: do you know anything about other common problems folks have run into w/ppas? 11:38
james_w skvidal: I tried to comment on your blog to suggest distributions@lists.freedesktop.org to get some feedback from other distros, but it seems my browser ate my comment. 11:38
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skvidal i will 11:40
james_w most of the problems that people have are from automated packaging: scripts that stuff the packaging from yesterday in to todays tip of upstream VCS. 11:40
spoleeba james_w, does suse's build service do the equivalent of cross repository deps? 11:40
james_w which is clearly not going to go well on occaision 11:40
spot skvidal: right now, just the latest 11:40
james_w spoleeba: no idea, sorry 11:40
spot skvidal: but for a while there, i was also keeping the previous build for each target 11:40
james_w one thing we do is to disable external repos on upgrade to a new release, which stops the problems of external packages from at least one end of the upgrade. 11:41
james_w but I don't think we're far enough along yet to start seeing the real issues from that sort of thing 11:41
skvidal james_w: but trips you up on the other end, doesn't it? 11:41
james_w skvidal: it obviously can do, but there's little we can do about that 11:42
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james_w I would say that a lot of use is single upload repos that just fix a bug in some package. This is useful for getting feedback from bug reporters and the like. 11:42
* abadger1999 fully expects some packager to start packaging glibc w/ crazy optimizations and an epoch in a PPA. 11:42
skvidal abadger1999: ensc 11:43
james_w there's also ones that enable some wacky feature that the distro won't support or similar 11:43
abadger1999 heh -- well, he might not be a crazy optimization guy but his repos will be crazy in a different way :-) 11:43
james_w and then the new release type ones that pull in code (manually or automatically) from newer upstream 11:43
james_w they are the ones that cause the most issues 11:43
james_w but it's very clear that if you enable them you have to deal with the fallout 11:44
james_w but it obviously doesn't mean that everyone understands why something broke 11:44
abadger1999 james_w: Do you have some method to separate out those types of repos from others? Or is it just word of mouth that some repos are crazier than others? 11:44
james_w there's just a freeform description on each one 11:44
skvidal abadger1999: I can think of a couple of ways 11:44
mizmo it would be nice to attach a sort of badge to the repos 11:44
skvidal abadger1999: if a repo contains things like glibc or rpm or yum, it gets progressively chancier 11:45
james_w they aren't really listed by type or anything, usually people hear about them from links on the forums etc. 11:45
abadger1999 mizmo: Thinkin' the same thing :-) 11:45
james_w mizmo: I like that idea. 11:45
skvidal abadger1999: hell a programmatic way would be to see if the items in your ppa/koper are depended on deeply or by a significant number of things in the main tree 11:45
spot or something as simple as an indicator of "does not replace anything in main tree" 11:46
spot e.g. chromium repo 11:46
skvidal s/main tree/critpath/ 11:46
spot sure. 11:46
spoleeba yes the suse build service does have cross repo deps... and a new concept called a pattern 11:46
abadger1999 mizmo: Also -- if we did run things like repoclosure, how often does repoclosure break for this repo? 11:46
james_w do you have the concept of one repo superseding another, or is the comparison done mainly on version numbers? 11:47
abadger1999 mizmo: Maybe also user feedback. 11:47
skvidal abadger1999: running repoclosure on N repos is going to get pricey 11:47
skvidal james_w: not repos, no 11:47
skvidal james_w: just pkgs 11:47
mizmo the badges i think would be: (1) optimization of something (2) changing a distro default (3) nightly build for major fans of a package (4) developer wanting people to test something (5) add on software that isn't available in distro 11:47
abadger1999 skvidal: On N repos or between N repos? 11:47
skvidal abadger1999: yes 11:47
mizmo (6) infrastructure boxes stuff 11:47
mizmo abadger1999: yeh i was thinking you could have a forum 11:47
mizmo abadger1999: and recommended repos other people like you use 11:47
mizmo ill upload my mockup although its got almost nothing in it 11:48
james_w skvidal: right, so one of the difficulties is that some people sometimes get version numbers wrong, as it's really hard to write documentation that tells you how to pick a version number that will give you the desired behaviour. 11:48
skvidal version numbers of their pkgs? 11:48
james_w yeah 11:48
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/kopers.png 11:48
skvidal james_w: we actually have a tool to test if your version number is newer/older than another 11:48
mizmo see the heart is the 'badge' 11:48
mizmo and there's a listing of who is using the repo 11:48
skvidal james_w: it's in the fedora packager pkg 11:48
mizmo and other repos you might want based on that one 11:48
mizmo i was gonna do a forum or something in the space under the badge 11:49
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james_w skvidal: we do, but you are testing against the possible versions that will appear in an unknown number of repos at any point in the future 11:49
skvidal james_w: oh - I see what you mean 11:49
skvidal james_w: yah - and who knows what you're going to get 11:49
abadger1999 <nod> 11:49
abadger1999 skvidal, james_w: It's in rpmdevtools 11:49
abadger1999 rpmdev-vercmp 11:50
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abadger1999 mizmo: Nice start! 11:50
skvidal abadger1999: yah - what's he's talking about won't be solved by that, though :) 11:50
abadger1999 <nod> 11:50
mizmo if we have rpms for installing the repos it would be cool to use the firefox package kit plugin for one click install 11:51
skvidal so 11:51
skvidal right now 11:51
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skvidal I'm inclined to believe that most repos 11:51
skvidal will be one-off pkgs 11:51
skvidal weird rebuild cases 11:51
skvidal and stuff like chromium 11:52
skvidal and that the complicated cases we're worrying about will happen 11:52
skvidal but will be less common 11:52
abadger1999 spot: Wuestion: Have you ever needed to pull in and replace a Fedora package with a newer/older/some other version in order to get a working chromium? 11:52
skvidal does anyone disagree with that basic assessment? 11:52
spot abadger1999: yep, but i did it in a way that did not conflict with the base fedora package 11:52
abadger1999 spoleeba: Or for that matter, changed chromium's source code but a lesser programmer might have taken an easier way out? 11:52
spot abadger1999: see icu42 in F-11: http://spot.fedorapeople.org/chromium/F11/ 11:53
skvidal hmm 11:53
drago01_ skvidal: are we going to allow everything or only stuff that can be in fedora? 11:53
skvidal I hadn't thought about doing this 11:53
drago01_ (patents) 11:53
spot abadger1999: uh, yeah, a lesser programmer would have left all of the bundling intact. 11:53
skvidal drago01: if there are things that are illegal to ship in fedora, they are illegal to ship in a personal repo hosted by fedora 11:54
mizmo maybe we should do a survey of fedora package maintainers who maintain repos in their fedora people space to see what they're doing 'em for 11:54
skvidal spot: correct me if I'm wrong on there - but we cannot host patent-infringing sw anymore than we can distribute it, can we? 11:54
spot skvidal: that's right. 11:54
mizmo just to get a rough guesstimate of the percentages of which ones would cause problems 11:54
skvidal mizmo: I was actually doing that directly 11:54
abadger1999 skvidal: I think I agree with you in terms of repos by quantity -- not sure about repos by package quantity. 11:54
mizmo oh okay cool 11:54
skvidal mizmo: find -name repodata on people1 11:54
drago01_ skvidal: ok, so it won't end up with "a rebuild of foo with x,y and z" enabled 11:54
mizmo lol great minds think alike but greater minds think faster :) 11:54
skvidal mizmo: gonna get a list of all repos out there 11:55
skvidal the legal cases will have to be handled by legal and then addressed by admins in fedora 11:55
skvidal so - there are 390 repos on fedorapeople.org 11:55
mizmo daaamn 11:56
abadger1999 drago01_: Where x,y, and z == patent encumbered, yeah... but where z,y,and z == an added dep that we didn't want to end up on the livecd or a config option that we just don't turn on because we don't like it, yeah it could. 11:56
skvidal mizmo: hosted by 66 users 11:56
abadger1999 drago01_: Like if someone wanted to make a system that ran with initng instead of upstart in sysv compat mode, they might rebuild packages with a different set of init scripts. 11:57
skvidal I can email these users and ask them what's in their repo and why. 11:57
drago01_ abadger1999: ok 11:57
skvidal mizmo: let's be fair - 390 'repodata' directories - how many of those are actual repos, I don't know.. 11:58
skvidal mizmo: like 5 of them are mine and those are make yum explode repos 11:59
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skvidal so I guess this makes a good 'actionitem' 11:59
skvidal I'll email these folks and ask what's in their repos, how do they maintain them, and what would actually help them maintain them 12:00
skvidal and see what we get back 12:00
drago01 abadger1999: but we don't have any reviews to make sure that this is the case 12:01
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drago01 abadger1999: i.e stuff can be removed once known but we don't have a "pre check" like we do have for fedora packages 12:01
abadger1999 drago01: Yeah -- spot, are we going to go on a -- "someone reported that package Foo has patent encumbered code, we need to remove it" system? 12:02
skvidal abadger1999: I believe that was the plan 12:02
skvidal abadger1999: enforce as reported 12:02
* abadger1999 notes we're at an hour 12:02
spot abadger1999: yeah, probably with me doing basic sanity checks from time to time 12:02
spot e.g. ffmpeg is obviously not acceptable. 12:03
abadger1999 mizmo: Oh -- another badge/metric could be: maintained by the same people who maintain in Fedora. 12:03
skvidal james_w: another question if you have a moment 12:03
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james_w sure 12:03
skvidal james_w: do you ever see issues with folks being confused where a package came from and if it is an official ubuntu pkg or not? 12:04
skvidal think of it as a branding problem 12:04
drago01 skvidal: and what about $randomclosessourceapp ... do we have a policy here? 12:04
drago01 (assume no legal issues) 12:04
skvidal drago01: random closed source is illegal 12:04
drago01 skvidal: my point is that this could end up as a dumping ground for stuff that can't go into fedora 12:05
abadger1999 skvidal: But not, say -- distributable closed source. 12:05
james_w skvidal: not in my experience. For the most part people that use PPAs are the people that track all that stuff anyway. We have checks in apport that stop them filing bugs against the official package and things like that. 12:05
skvidal drago01: yes, I think that is possible. 12:05
abadger1999 spot: ? Have an idea on that? 12:05
drago01 skvidal: what? being closed does not mean not legaly distributable 12:05
spot drago01: for now, i'd rather focus on stuff that meets the licensing guidelines. if there is pent up demand for packaging junk which isn't free or doesn't have source, we can revisit it. 12:05
skvidal james_w: fair enough 12:05
abadger1999 spot: i guess we're setting this up, though, in the opposite way -- do we want to spend energy keeping it out? 12:06
mizmo abadger1999: oh yeh thats an awesome idea 12:06
spot abadger1999: eh, only to the extent that we should check the spec for license tag compliance. 12:06
abadger1999 Okay. 12:07
spot and yes, i realize how trivial that is to bypass, but most folks won't, and it will likely be noticed if they do it. 12:07
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skvidal okay. 12:08
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skvidal so as to my earlier statement 12:08
skvidal is anyone convinced we're going to see too many problems to proceed? 12:09
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skvidal b/c I'm not convinced we are going to see too many problems, yet, though I reserve the right to be wrong later :) 12:09
* spot is not convinced of that, but is not going to ram it forward if others think that it is 12:09
mizmo i have a question. what if say amazon wanted to build a version of their (closed source) mp3 downloader for fedora. is this something they could use? 12:09
skvidal mizmo: to build it? or to host it? 12:10
mizmo skvidal: to build it 12:10
skvidal I'd like to think that amazon has their own systems that can run mock 12:10
drago01 mizmo: didn't we just talk about that? 12:10
drago01 oh 12:10
spot mizmo: from a technology perspective, possibly, but our policies wouldn't permit it. 12:10
mizmo drago01 sorry if i missed it i saw closed source not allowed skimming it 12:10
mizmo im just scared because more and more i see our distro not being supported for 3rd party apps like that 12:11
abadger1999 i'm not convinced we'll see too many problems but wants us to message that this is a system for people who have a tolerance for breakage and dead-ends of development. 12:11
drago01 mizmo: no this was about hosting not (ab)using the build infrastructure 12:11
mizmo fedora as a platform to third party app devels isnt so attractive it would be nice if this could help solve that problem but i understand if its out of scope too 12:11
skvidal mizmo: this doesn't really help longterm interfaces 12:12
abadger1999 mizmo: I'm not sure if the build system I was envisioning would aid them in doing that but I can see if there's anyway I could. 12:12
drago01 mizmo: yeah being a (fast) moving target is the primary cause imo 12:12
skvidal mizmo: nor does it make anything better if their app requires older/newer items 12:12
mizmo well other distros make it easier too 12:12
skvidal mizmo: make it easier, how? 12:12
mizmo there is some movie player thing, 12:12
mizmo and they only offer an ubuntu deb 12:12
mizmo and i filed a ticket with customer support 12:12
mizmo and they were really nasty to me saying it was too hard to build for fedora 12:12
mizmo so they wont even bother 12:12
mizmo i cant think of the name of it... 12:13
skvidal mizmo: any specifics? 12:13
skvidal mizmo: as to why fedora was hard to build for? or was it 'does not stay the same for long enough' 12:13
mizmo if i could remember the stupid name of it i could pull up the email by search 12:13
spoleeba mizmo, i would have thought that Suse build system solved this particular problem for 3rd party app developers who want to distribute from their own site 12:13
mizmo i think they more said, ubuntu made it easier 12:13
skvidal b/c that latter concern is valid and beyond changing the support lifespan of the distro we're out of luck 12:13
mizmo and didnt complain about our specific problems 12:14
drago01 skvidal: not breaking ABI/API _during_ the lifecycle would be a start 12:14
skvidal drago01: sure 12:14
skvidal mizmo: if you can find the mail, I'd love to hear more 12:14
skvidal mizmo: but my suspicion is that the problem is lifecycle-related 12:15
spoleeba mizmo, is amazon even using a PPA? 12:15
skvidal mizmo: but, again, I'm fine with being wrong there 12:15
spoleeba mizmo, or are they building locally and distributing locally? 12:15
skvidal looks like locally 12:16
spoleeba skvidal, so if mock isnt easy enough...i dont know how it gets easier 12:16
mizmo spoleeba: i dont know how they build but the debs were on their own website 12:16
drago01 well google does ship rpms 12:17
drago01 even a repo afaik 12:17
skvidal but we're getting a bit off in the weeds here 12:17
drago01 adobe has a yum repo too 12:17
skvidal mizmo: if you can find the email - let us know about it, okay? 12:17
mizmo sorry about that its my fault 12:17
skvidal drago01: yep 12:17
mizmo i will 12:17
mizmo it was an app like miro... but closed source... argh 12:17
skvidal boxeetv? 12:18
skvidal they only have ubuntu pkgs 12:18
mizmo yes! that was it 12:18
spoleeba mizmo, its a good point.. if the kopers stuff can be replicated easily so third parties can set up their own repos....but that's a bigger commitment than just one package on one website 12:18
mizmo grr i cant find the damn email though 12:19
skvidal wow 12:19
skvidal so the boxee tv deb 12:19
skvidal is 54mb 12:19
spoleeba skvidal, does it have any...deps 12:19
drago01 mizmo: write a new one ;) 12:19
mizmo hehe 12:20
spoleeba skvidal, sounds like something alien could covert without loss of fidelity 12:20
drago01 spoleeba: didn't someone package dbpkg for fedora ;) 12:20
skvidal righto 12:20
skvidal so <shrug> 12:22
skvidal no idea on why boxee is easier to pkg for ubuntu than fedora - and speculation is not gonna help much 12:22
drago01 yeah it might be even as trival as we are not shipping al required deps 12:23
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drago01 but the large package size makes that unlikl 12:23
drago01 y 12:23
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skvidal drago01: who knows 12:23
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skvidal mizmo: if you can't find the email - would you be willing to email them again? 12:24
mizmo skvidal: sure 12:24
drago01 skvidal: yeah I don't think we are going anywhere by speculating ... 12:24
skvidal ok 12:24
skvidal mizmo: thx 12:25
skvidal james_w: just wanted to say thanks for the input - it's been helpful 12:25
skvidal anyone have anything else? 12:25
james_w np 12:25
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mizmo i justed emailed them 12:25
skvidal mizmo: for great justed 12:26
skvidal abadger1999: you have anything else you wanted to ask/cover/talk about? 12:26
mizmo hehe 12:26
abadger1999 Noe, all set. 12:26
skvidal okie doke 12:27
skvidal thanks for coming along and discussing everyone 12:27
abadger1999 Oh -- one thing -- we need a name 12:27
abadger1999 I want to start throwing code on fedorahosted. 12:28
skvidal not to be obvious but 12:28
skvidal fpr? 12:28
skvidal fedora personal repo? 12:28
Southern_Gentlem derby? 12:28
skvidal hmm - should fedora be left out? 12:28
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abadger1999 they aren't really personal and ... yes, I'd leave fedora out. 12:28
skvidal abadger1999: arbitrary package builds? 12:29
abadger1999 apb is already the name of a java build system so there might be some confusion in that space. 12:29
skvidal ah 12:29
jwb s/builds/repos 12:29
skvidal jwb: apr is REALLY already used by apache iirc 12:30
skvidal Summary  : Apache Portable Runtime library 12:30
skvidal URL  : http://apr.apache.org/ 12:30
jwb what was wrong with kopers 12:30
skvidal they aren't koji based 12:30
skvidal so the ko doesn't work so much 12:30
abadger1999 We're not building with koji, and they aren't really personal. 12:30
jwb kewl other package repos 12:30
skvidal tbnr - to be named repos? 12:30
skvidal kopr :) 12:31
skvidal cute 12:31
abadger1999  :-) 12:31
* skvidal doesn't much care 12:31
skvidal spot: you got a preference here? 12:31
spot hey, he who writes it gets to name it. 12:32
abadger1999 kewl other package repos catches the spirit of what we're doing best so far. 12:32
dgilmore dlrr 12:32
skvidal abadger1999: worksforme->closed 12:32
abadger1999 I have access to fas so I guess I can go with that and perform the rename if I need to. 12:32
skvidal dgilmore: did you have stroke? 12:33
dgilmore dirty little rpm repo 12:33
abadger1999 hahah 12:33
spot man, that is begging to be lolcatted 12:33
spot "did you have stroke?" 12:33
dgilmore skvidal: :) 12:33
* skvidal decides it is in his best interest to find another thing to look at 12:34

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