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=== Fedora Packaging Committee Meeting - 2008-10-21 ===

==== Present ====

* DenisLeroy (delero)
* JasonTibbitts (ubertibbs)
* RalfCorsepius (racor)
* RexDieter (rdieter)
* TomCallaway (spot)
* ToshioKuratomi (abadger1999)

==== Submitted for FESCo approval ====

The following proposals were considered:

* Eclipse plugin guideline modification
** Reported on-list; archive is at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-packaging/2008-October/msg00121.html
** These tweak the guidelines to fix a few typos, clean the templates up a bit and accommodate changes in Eclipse 3.4.
** The proposal was accepted.

* Desktop File guideline modification
** https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TomCallaway/DesktopFileVendor
** This removes language which many interpreted as requiring most desktop files to be installed with --vendor=fedora.
** The proposal was accepted.

==== Other Discussions ====

The following additional items were discussed; see the logs for full
details.

* Cpack guidelines
** https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/CmakeCpack
** The committee was unclear as to how this applied to packaging guidelines at all, as it seems to contain tips for upstream developers instead of instructions for Fedora packagers.

* Tweaks to the specfile template for fonts
** https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Fonts_spec_template_correction_(fontconfig)
** This alters the template for font packages to deal with issues surrounding the /etc/fonts/conf.avail directory.
** FPC agreed with the proposal but had some suggestions; these will be addressed and the issue will be raised later.

* New guideline relating to generically named packages and files.
** Tough to actually write a guideline involving the use of common sense as applied to things like this.
** Jason will draft a proposal for consideration soon.

==== IRC Logs ====
{|
|- id="t12:05"
| colspan="2" | * spot looks around
|| [[#t12:05|12:05]]
|- id="t12:06"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | abadger1999, tibbs|h, rdieter, around?
|| [[#t12:06|12:06]] 
|- id="t12:06"
| colspan="2" | --&gt; racor has joined this channel (n=rc040203@HSI-KBW-078-043-056-093.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de).
|| [[#t12:06|12:06]]
|- id="t12:06"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | yo
|| [[#t12:06|12:06]] 
|- id="t12:06"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | spot: here.
|| [[#t12:06|12:06]] 
|- id="t12:06"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | SmootherFrOgZ: ping?
|| [[#t12:06|12:06]] 
|- id="t12:07"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | busy busy though :-(... haven't had time to update javascript guidelines.
|| [[#t12:07|12:07]] 
|- id="t12:07"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | half here (networking probs)
|| [[#t12:07|12:07]] 
|- id="t12:07"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | i don't see Rathann online
|| [[#t12:07|12:07]] 
|- id="t12:07"
| colspan="2" | --&gt; delero has joined this channel (n=denis@nat/sun/x-9fcfcfad87b03708).
|| [[#t12:07|12:07]]
|- id="t12:08"
| colspan="2" | * delero is here
|| [[#t12:08|12:08]]
|- id="t12:08"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | okay, so i count 5
|| [[#t12:08|12:08]] 
|- id="t12:08"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | (well, 4 and a half... ;)
|| [[#t12:08|12:08]] 
|- id="t12:09"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I'm here.
|| [[#t12:09|12:09]] 
|- id="t12:09"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | ahh, okay
|| [[#t12:09|12:09]] 
|- id="t12:09"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Sorry, you pinged me at home.
|| [[#t12:09|12:09]] 
|- id="t12:09"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | i wasn't expecting ubertibbs. ;)
|| [[#t12:09|12:09]] 
|- id="t12:09"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Silent protest.
|| [[#t12:09|12:09]] 
|- id="t12:09"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | lol at tibbs
|| [[#t12:09|12:09]] 
|- id="t12:09"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | :-)
|| [[#t12:09|12:09]] 
|- id="t12:10"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | okay, lets get this first one out of the way
|| [[#t12:10|12:10]] 
|- id="t12:10"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | Andrew Overholt sent over a diff for updating the Eclipse guidelines
|| [[#t12:10|12:10]] 
|- id="t12:10"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | "Updates to Eclipse Plugin packaging guidelines"
|| [[#t12:10|12:10]] 
|- id="t12:11"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I was +1 on list.
|| [[#t12:11|12:11]] 
|- id="t12:11"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | i was also +1 on list
|| [[#t12:11|12:11]] 
|- id="t12:11"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | same here, although the path "/usr/lib{64}/.../buildscripts/" is somewhat offensive :-)
|| [[#t12:11|12:11]] 
|- id="t12:11"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | so was delero
|| [[#t12:11|12:11]] 
|- id="t12:12"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | i can only assume the buildscripts became arch dependent
|| [[#t12:12|12:12]] 
|- id="t12:12"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | right, considering that this is eclipse, it makes sense
|| [[#t12:12|12:12]] 
|- id="t12:13"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | +1 updates
|| [[#t12:13|12:13]] 
|- id="t12:14"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | +1
|| [[#t12:14|12:14]] 
|- id="t12:14"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | okay, thats a +5, racor, would you like to vote on the record?
|| [[#t12:14|12:14]] 
|- id="t12:15"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | okay, i will assume he is still having networking issues
|| [[#t12:15|12:15]] 
|- id="t12:15"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | next item is new, so please read it: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TomCallaway/DesktopFileVendor
|| [[#t12:15|12:15]] 
|- id="t12:15"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | +1
|| [[#t12:15|12:15]] 
|- id="t12:15"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Oh, goody.
|| [[#t12:15|12:15]] 
|- id="t12:16"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | +1
|| [[#t12:16|12:16]] 
|- id="t12:16"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | +1
|| [[#t12:16|12:16]] 
|- id="t12:16"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | +1 from me as well (i usually don't vote against my own drafts)
|| [[#t12:16|12:16]] 
|- id="t12:16"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | spot: Do you also want to ping mclassen about migrating old .desktop files?
|| [[#t12:16|12:16]] 
|- id="t12:17"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | fwiw, mclasen supports it.
|| [[#t12:17|12:17]] 
|- id="t12:17"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | abadger1999: well, i don't think we can or else we'll break menu-editing, won't we?
|| [[#t12:17|12:17]] 
|- id="t12:17"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Immaterial to this vote but I'd like to see this go away altogether.
|| [[#t12:17|12:17]] 
|- id="t12:17"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | +1 from me
|| [[#t12:17|12:17]] 
|- id="t12:17"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | +1
|| [[#t12:17|12:17]] 
|- id="t12:17"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | note the last line in the draft
|| [[#t12:17|12:17]] 
|- id="t12:18"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | spot: Last time this was brought up, mclassen was going to work on the menu-editing/customizing issue.
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] 
|- id="t12:18"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | He made some progress but we never heard that it was finished.
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] 
|- id="t12:18"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | menus that included customized items where vendors change results in menus with orphaned items.
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] 
|- id="t12:18"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Or what the scope of the "fixes" were.
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] 
|- id="t12:18"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | okay, so i say we should leave it as i've drafted it, and when mclasen works on the menu-editing/customization issue, we consider dropping it across the board
|| [[#t12:18|12:18]] 
|- id="t12:19"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | s/mclasen/anyone
|| [[#t12:19|12:19]] 
|- id="t12:19"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Definitely.
|| [[#t12:19|12:19]] 
|- id="t12:19"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | racor: we're at +5, but as always, i'd like to have your vote on the record
|| [[#t12:19|12:19]] 
|- id="t12:20"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | shrug, is it worth fiddling with the definition of "life of a package"?  I mean, modifying vendor between f9-&gt;f10 could arguably be acceptable.
|| [[#t12:20|12:20]] 
|- id="t12:20"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I'd argue not.
|| [[#t12:20|12:20]] 
|- id="t12:20"
| colspan="2" | &lt;-- racor has left this server (Remote closed the connection).
|| [[#t12:20|12:20]]
|- id="t12:20"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | rdieter: Let's see if mclassen has come up with something first.  Then we'll know how much will break.
|| [[#t12:20|12:20]] 
|- id="t12:21"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | abadger1999: can you and rdieter follow up with mclasen?
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]] 
|- id="t12:21"
| colspan="2" | --&gt; racor has joined this channel (n=rc040203@HSI-KBW-078-043-056-093.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de).
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]]
|- id="t12:21"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | ok
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]] 
|- id="t12:21"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | alright. next item: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/CmakeCpack
|| [[#t12:21|12:21]] 
|- id="t12:22"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | this is an addendum to: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/cmake
|| [[#t12:22|12:22]] 
|- id="t12:22"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I'm afraid I don't really understand the draft.
|| [[#t12:22|12:22]] 
|- id="t12:23"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Where am I supposed to "use following command"?
|| [[#t12:23|12:23]] 
|- id="t12:23"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Also, needs editing for grammar.
|| [[#t12:23|12:23]] 
|- id="t12:23"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | yeah, grammar fixups i can do
|| [[#t12:23|12:23]] 
|- id="t12:23"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | commands go to CMakeLists.txt I suppose
|| [[#t12:23|12:23]] 
|- id="t12:24"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | So this draft leaves me asking... what is this?
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] 
|- id="t12:24"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Is this something like "make dist" in autotools and "setup.py sdist" in python?
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] 
|- id="t12:24"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | I'm not sure, but we don't want fedora packagers to use Cpack *at all*, do we?  (as I understand it, it's a quick-n-dirty way to generate rpms outside of the usual/classic rpmbuild)
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] 
|- id="t12:24"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | How does it apply to packagers?
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] 
|- id="t12:24"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | i think so.
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] 
|- id="t12:24"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | It sounds as if this is something that developers would use when generating cpack files, not something Fedora packagers would need to care about.
|| [[#t12:24|12:24]] 
|- id="t12:25"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | yeah, i think this isn't something for the packaging guidelines
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] 
|- id="t12:25"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | more for a more general "CMake FAQ' page ?
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] 
|- id="t12:25"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | i don't understand why this should be part of the FPG, internal implementation details I'd say
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] 
|- id="t12:25"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | delero: i'm not even sure about that. CPack seems to be a way to generate a tarball full of binaries.
|| [[#t12:25|12:25]] 
|- id="t12:26"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | http://dingyichen.livejournal.com/6905.html seems to have a bit more explanation
|| [[#t12:26|12:26]] 
|- id="t12:27"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Maybe this could go on the distributions wiki -- I know Debian has a "How upstreams can be friendly to packagers" and that would be good for distributions wiki to have.
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] 
|- id="t12:27"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | "tarball full of binaries" == "tarball full of fail"
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] 
|- id="t12:27"
| colspan="2" | &lt;-- racor has left this server (Remote closed the connection).
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]]
|- id="t12:27"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | uberfail ?
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] 
|- id="t12:27"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | okay, i don't think we have anyone backing this.
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] 
|- id="t12:27"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | lets move on
|| [[#t12:27|12:27]] 
|- id="t12:28"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/Fonts_spec_template_correction_(fontconfig)
|| [[#t12:28|12:28]] 
|- id="t12:28"
| colspan="2" | --&gt; racor has joined this channel (n=rc040203@HSI-KBW-078-043-056-093.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de).
|| [[#t12:28|12:28]]
|- id="t12:28"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | basically, that draft proposes that Fedora start using the conf.avail/ hierarchy in addition to the conf.d hierarchy for fontconfig
|| [[#t12:28|12:28]] 
|- id="t12:30"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | this matches fontconfig upstream, so i'm inclined to +1 it
|| [[#t12:30|12:30]] 
|- id="t12:30"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | make sense, rubber stamp +1
|| [[#t12:30|12:30]] 
|- id="t12:31"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | +1
|| [[#t12:31|12:31]] 
|- id="t12:31"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | delero, ubertibbs, racor?
|| [[#t12:31|12:31]] 
|- id="t12:31"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | nim-nim has been a good driver of fonts packaging
|| [[#t12:31|12:31]] 
|- id="t12:31"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | +1 from me, looks good
|| [[#t12:31|12:31]] 
|- id="t12:32"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | abadger1999: thanks
|| [[#t12:32|12:32]] 
|- id="t12:32"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | is conf.avail going to replace conf.d? what's the difference?
|| [[#t12:32|12:32]] 
|- id="t12:32"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | the only thing that needs to be decided is if we want to use conf.avail like upstream or FHS-ize it before fedora adoption
|| [[#t12:32|12:32]] 
|- id="t12:33"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | racor: upstream puts config snippets in a directory (they call conf.avail)
|| [[#t12:33|12:33]] 
|- id="t12:33"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | racor: to activate it they're symlinked in conf.d
|| [[#t12:33|12:33]] 
|- id="t12:33"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | so conf.avail is just a repository of config templates
|| [[#t12:33|12:33]] 
|- id="t12:34"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Which brings up the first comment at the bottom.
|| [[#t12:34|12:34]] 
|- id="t12:34"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Since they're not actual configuration files.
|| [[#t12:34|12:34]] 
|- id="t12:34"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | But it's probably too late to fix this properly for F-10.
|| [[#t12:34|12:34]] 
|- id="t12:34"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | ubertibbs: quite honestly, it's too late to change any font package for F10
|| [[#t12:34|12:34]] 
|- id="t12:35"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | so the guideline if it's adopted will be for F11 and later IMHO
|| [[#t12:35|12:35]] 
|- id="t12:35"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Then can we do it right?  I think there's a general push to get non-config stuff out of /etc.
|| [[#t12:35|12:35]] 
|- id="t12:35"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | I just want to be 100% that if we go conf.avail like upstream
|| [[#t12:35|12:35]] 
|- id="t12:35"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | no one will ask to move the files later
|| [[#t12:35|12:35]] 
|- id="t12:35"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | nim-nim: thanks for explaining, then +1, FHS is irrelevant, here
|| [[#t12:35|12:35]] 
|- id="t12:35"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | are these really non-config ?
|| [[#t12:35|12:35]] 
|- id="t12:36"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | spot: they're config
|| [[#t12:36|12:36]] 
|- id="t12:36"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | but read-only
|| [[#t12:36|12:36]] 
|- id="t12:36"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | not modifiable
|| [[#t12:36|12:36]] 
|- id="t12:36"
! style="background-color: #8c4a4a" | delero
| style="color: #8c4a4a" | read-only config != config
|| [[#t12:36|12:36]] 
|- id="t12:36"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | they're %config without noreplace in our fontconfig package
|| [[#t12:36|12:36]] 
|- id="t12:36"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | That... doesn't make much sense to me.
|| [[#t12:36|12:36]] 
|- id="t12:37"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | which means if we decide to go conf.avail rpmlint will complain of every package that applies the guideline
|| [[#t12:37|12:37]] 
|- id="t12:37"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | i think if we move to /usr/share without upstream's support, we're going to just make lots of people confused and unhappy
|| [[#t12:37|12:37]] 
|- id="t12:37"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | delero: cf. /etc/init.d, /etc/rc.d etc. it does make sense.
|| [[#t12:37|12:37]] 
|- id="t12:37"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | since we can always change this later if upstream decides to go to /usr/share, i say lets go with this now
|| [[#t12:37|12:37]] 
|- id="t12:37"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | spot: agreed
|| [[#t12:37|12:37]] 
|- id="t12:38"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | i count a +5 on this one, ubertibbs, want to vote? :)
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] 
|- id="t12:38"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | spot: the rpm pattern will be spread in many packages then
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] 
|- id="t12:38"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | We need to collect a list of these "non config in /etc" locations and use it to quiet rpmlint.
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] 
|- id="t12:38"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | lots of pain
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] 
|- id="t12:38"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | nim-nim: can you macroize it?
|| [[#t12:38|12:38]] 
|- id="t12:39"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | spot: I could define a set of macro names for default font directories
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] 
|- id="t12:39"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | that would still make a change require a mass rebuilt
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] 
|- id="t12:39"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | well, we're likely to have at least one mass rebuild in the F11 cycle anyways
|| [[#t12:39|12:39]] 
|- id="t12:40"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | gconf, fonts.avail, init.d
|| [[#t12:40|12:40]] 
|- id="t12:40"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | (not counting that rpm is not very good at handling symlink changes)
|| [[#t12:40|12:40]] 
|- id="t12:40"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | anyway I feel something in /usr/share would be cleaner
|| [[#t12:40|12:40]] 
|- id="t12:40"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | but I don't care about it much
|| [[#t12:40|12:40]] 
|- id="t12:41"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I'm of the same mind.
|| [[#t12:41|12:41]] 
|- id="t12:41"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | nim-nim: feel free to try to sell it to upstream, i wouldn't be opposed to it.
|| [[#t12:41|12:41]] 
|- id="t12:41"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | I do care about not having to change again lots of font packages later
|| [[#t12:41|12:41]] 
|- id="t12:41"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | But these thing do confuse people at package review time, because rpmlint complains.
|| [[#t12:41|12:41]] 
|- id="t12:41"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | nim-nim: no, /usr/share would suffer from the /usr on separate filesystem problem.
|| [[#t12:41|12:41]] 
|- id="t12:42"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | racor: do we need fontconfig before  /usr on separate filesystem problem is mounted?
|| [[#t12:42|12:42]] 
|- id="t12:42"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Aren't the actual fonts stored in /usr/share in any case?
|| [[#t12:42|12:42]] 
|- id="t12:43"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | ubertibbs: right  :p
|| [[#t12:43|12:43]] 
|- id="t12:43"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | nim-nim: unless fontconfig is going to support non-X11, then no.
|| [[#t12:43|12:43]] 
|- id="t12:44"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | so, thats all i had for today's agenda
|| [[#t12:44|12:44]] 
|- id="t12:44"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | racor: I think if we start to use fontconfig early we'll just copy the default font and a minimal config somewhere in /etc anyway
|| [[#t12:44|12:44]] 
|- id="t12:44"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | if anyone else wants to raise an item, now would be the time. :)
|| [[#t12:44|12:44]] 
|- id="t12:44"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Crap, what was it I wanted to ask...
|| [[#t12:44|12:44]] 
|- id="t12:45"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | I'd like to mention that upstream python is discussing the sad state of distutils and setuptools.
|| [[#t12:45|12:45]] 
|- id="t12:45"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Oh, do we need a guideline covering generically named executables and headers and such?
|| [[#t12:45|12:45]] 
|- id="t12:45"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | so I move along with the draft? ask upstream to consider a location in /usr/share ? ask rpmlint to consider whitelisting conf.avail ? prepare a set of rpm macros ???
|| [[#t12:45|12:45]] 
|- id="t12:46"
! style="background-color: #854685" | racor
| style="color: #854685" | sorry, as usual, I got to quit early :(
|| [[#t12:46|12:46]] 
|- id="t12:46"
| colspan="2" | &lt;-- racor has left this server ("Leaving").
|| [[#t12:46|12:46]]
|- id="t12:46"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | just want to be clear on the actions my side
|| [[#t12:46|12:46]] 
|- id="t12:46"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | If anyone cares about python packaging and has the patience to wade through hours of email, the discussion is happening on the distutils-sig mailing list.
|| [[#t12:46|12:46]] 
|- id="t12:46"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | ouchie
|| [[#t12:46|12:46]] 
|- id="t12:47"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Right now, it could be really bad for us in the future or really good.  I can give a summary after the rest of this meeting is over.
|| [[#t12:47|12:47]] 
|- id="t12:47"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | nim-nim: we've approved the draft.
|| [[#t12:47|12:47]] 
|- id="t12:47"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | nim-nim: I think we've voted approved on this... what do you want to do?
|| [[#t12:47|12:47]] 
|- id="t12:47"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | if you think /usr/share is a good idea, you should talk to upstream.
|| [[#t12:47|12:47]] 
|- id="t12:47"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | ok
|| [[#t12:47|12:47]] 
|- id="t12:47"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | so I'll consider
|| [[#t12:47|12:47]] 
|- id="t12:47"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | whitelisting in rpmlint seems like a good thing too, you should talk to ville
|| [[#t12:47|12:47]] 
|- id="t12:48"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | 1. changing a guideline to use a conf template dir like upstream is approved
|| [[#t12:48|12:48]] 
|- id="t12:48"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | 2. actual dir location is pending on discussion with upstream
|| [[#t12:48|12:48]] 
|- id="t12:49"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | 3. if upstream want to keep it in /etc =&gt; talk with ville on rpmlint whitelisting
|| [[#t12:49|12:49]] 
|- id="t12:49"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | sure. we can sit on this until you hear back from upstream.
|| [[#t12:49|12:49]] 
|- id="t12:49"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | spot: thank you
|| [[#t12:49|12:49]] 
|- id="t12:49"
! style="background-color: #4b904b" | nim-nim
| style="color: #4b904b" | spot: I just need for it to be ready when F11 cycle starts
|| [[#t12:49|12:49]] 
|- id="t12:50"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | So, generic executable and header names?
|| [[#t12:50|12:50]] 
|- id="t12:50"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | ubertibbs: so, just as a note, we don't need to send that one to FESCo yet, until nim-nim gets back to us on what the upstream location should be
|| [[#t12:50|12:50]] 
|- id="t12:50"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Sure.
|| [[#t12:50|12:50]] 
|- id="t12:50"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | ubertibbs: we could probably use a draft there. it will be a fun one to write, i'm sure.
|| [[#t12:50|12:50]] 
|- id="t12:51"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I was reviewing a package and pointed out that "/usr/bin/generate" and "/usr/include/defs.h" are a bit too generic and received grumbling that there's nothing in the guidelines about it.
|| [[#t12:51|12:51]] 
|- id="t12:51"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | But I have no idea how to actually specify "too generic".
|| [[#t12:51|12:51]] 
|- id="t12:51"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | It's somewhat implied by the Conflicts Guideline but if someone wants to grumble they won't see it that way.
|| [[#t12:51|12:51]] 
|- id="t12:52"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Well, that implies that there's an actual conflict, rather than a "possible conflict in the future".
|| [[#t12:52|12:52]] 
|- id="t12:52"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Right.
|| [[#t12:52|12:52]] 
|- id="t12:52"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | The fact that we have no package providing /usr/include/defs.h currently means that something has gone right so far.
|| [[#t12:52|12:52]] 
|- id="t12:52"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | And I dislike the idea that the first package in gets to keep the name and everything else gets to rename.
|| [[#t12:52|12:52]] 
|- id="t12:53"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | it's not first-come, first serve.
|| [[#t12:53|12:53]] 
|- id="t12:53"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | +1
|| [[#t12:53|12:53]] 
|- id="t12:53"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | they'd *both* need fixing at that point
|| [[#t12:53|12:53]] 
|- id="t12:53"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Well, consider the recent example of arping.
|| [[#t12:53|12:53]] 
|- id="t12:53"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | esp.  b/c if there's different distros making different decisions....
|| [[#t12:53|12:53]] 
|- id="t12:54"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | arping is a long-standing executable out of iputils.  Should it rename simply because someone has now written another standalone arping?
|| [[#t12:54|12:54]] 
|- id="t12:55"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | "Consult the packaging committee on a case-by-case basis" is the best I can do, but I don't know if we want to deal with that kind of thing.
|| [[#t12:55|12:55]] 
|- id="t12:55"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | steel cage death match, winner decides.
|| [[#t12:55|12:55]] 
|- id="t12:55"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Which I guess is a general question: do we want to deal with that kind of thing?
|| [[#t12:55|12:55]] 
|- id="t12:56"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | ubertibbs: it's a large judgement call, I suspect fpc consultation in cases of dispute it probably the only way (with usual escalation to FESCo when/if needed).
|| [[#t12:56|12:56]] 
|- id="t12:57"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | &lt;nod&gt;
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] 
|- id="t12:57"
! style="background-color: #42427e" | rdieter
| style="color: #42427e" | it's hard to codify: don't be stupid
|| [[#t12:57|12:57]] 
|- id="t12:58"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | "Please be cognizant of the potential for conflicts and avoid if at all possible overly generic names.  If in doubt, consult FPC before importing any package that is likely to cause conflicts for future packages."
|| [[#t12:58|12:58]] 
|- id="t12:59"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | +1
|| [[#t12:59|12:59]] 
|- id="t13:00"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | Sure, i could go with that. +1
|| [[#t13:00|13:00]] 
|- id="t13:00"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | If we get innundated we'll be forced to work on something better.
|| [[#t13:00|13:00]] 
|- id="t13:00"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | OK, I'll write up a draft and propose it to the list.
|| [[#t13:00|13:00]] 
|- id="t13:03"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | So the python thing:  Everybody hates setuptools but many people use it because it's the best thing going for python developers to be able to build cross-platform tools right now.
|| [[#t13:03|13:03]] 
|- id="t13:03"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | There's talk of replacing it upstream with a better library.
|| [[#t13:03|13:03]] 
|- id="t13:04"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Which library might that be?
|| [[#t13:04|13:04]] 
|- id="t13:04"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | upstream developers and distro packagers (mainly Debian people and I) are talking about things on the distutils-sig@python.org list.
|| [[#t13:04|13:04]] 
|- id="t13:04"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | python-setuptools
|| [[#t13:04|13:04]] 
|- id="t13:04"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I mean which is the better one they want to replace it with?
|| [[#t13:04|13:04]] 
|- id="t13:04"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Err... python-seutptools is what's being replaced... no name for a new library yet.
|| [[#t13:04|13:04]] 
|- id="t13:04"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | And no code.
|| [[#t13:04|13:04]] 
|- id="t13:05"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Oh, I thought there was an alternative already out there.  Didn't I review part of it?
|| [[#t13:05|13:05]] 
|- id="t13:05"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | well... setuptools has 5-10 different functions.
|| [[#t13:05|13:05]] 
|- id="t13:06"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | I know you reviewed paver which is one replacement for the build function.
|| [[#t13:06|13:06]] 
|- id="t13:06"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Ah, OK.
|| [[#t13:06|13:06]] 
|- id="t13:06"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | That's what I'm thinking of.
|| [[#t13:06|13:06]] 
|- id="t13:06"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | There's also the installation of non-distro packages.
|| [[#t13:06|13:06]] 
|- id="t13:06"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | And the metadata for the package.
|| [[#t13:06|13:06]] 
|- id="t13:06"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | And library versioning.
|| [[#t13:06|13:06]] 
|- id="t13:07"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | The batle I'm fighting right now is FHS compliance for data files when installed.
|| [[#t13:07|13:07]] 
|- id="t13:08"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Windows and MacOS encourage developers to install everything in their own directory.
|| [[#t13:08|13:08]] 
|- id="t13:08"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | Whereas FHS wants to spread out into different directories.
|| [[#t13:08|13:08]] 
|- id="t13:09"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | The python-setuptools author has proposed that we mark what kind of files declaratively in the metadata (good). and then someone has to write an install tool that will install the files in the proper places per platform.
|| [[#t13:09|13:09]] 
|- id="t13:09"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | In order for the code to find the files (say locale files or icons or config files) he's proposing to use symlinks.
|| [[#t13:09|13:09]] 
|- id="t13:10"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | Ugh.
|| [[#t13:10|13:10]] 
|- id="t13:10"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | ie the code looks in /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/foo/locale/en_US/messages.mo
|| [[#t13:10|13:10]] 
|- id="t13:10"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I think that would be fail.
|| [[#t13:10|13:10]] 
|- id="t13:10"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | And the install tool has made that a symlink to /usr/share/locale/en_US/LC_MESSAGES/messages.mo
|| [[#t13:10|13:10]] 
|- id="t13:11"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | I've proposed using an API instead.
|| [[#t13:11|13:11]] 
|- id="t13:11"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | People aren't too enthused about either one ATM.
|| [[#t13:11|13:11]] 
|- id="t13:12"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | So if you want to follow along: http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/distutils-sig/list/
|| [[#t13:12|13:12]] 
|- id="t13:12"
! style="background-color: #818144" | abadger1999
| style="color: #818144" | If you just have ideas about why symlinks suck and want me to pass them along, I will.
|| [[#t13:12|13:12]] 
|- id="t13:14"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | so... i think i can call the FPC meeting at this point. :)
|| [[#t13:14|13:14]] 
|- id="t13:15"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | +1
|| [[#t13:15|13:15]] 
|- id="t13:15"
! style="background-color: #407a40" | spot
| style="color: #407a40" | thanks all
|| [[#t13:15|13:15]] 
|- id="t13:15"
! style="background-color: #488888" | ubertibbs
| style="color: #488888" | I don't think I can contribute usefully to the python issues.
|| [[#t13:15|13:15]] 
|}
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