QA/Meetings/20090921

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Contents

Attendees

People Present (lines said):

  • Adam Williamson (adamw) (120)
  • Jesse Keating (Oxf13) (49)
  • Seth Vidal (skvidal) (24)
  • David Pravec (dpravec) (23)
  • Denise Dumas (denise) (22)
  • Jeff Hann (jeff_hann) (12)
  • Kamil Paral (kparal) (6)
  • John Poelstra (poelcat) (5)
  • Jeroen van Meeuwen (kanarip) (3)
  • Kevin Fenzi (nirik) (1)


Regrets:

  • James Laska (jlaska)


Agenda

Upcoming QA events

Action items

IRC transcript

adamw #startmeeting 2009-09-21 Fedora QA meeting Sep 21 08:59
zodbot Meeting started Mon Sep 21 15:59:59 2009 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. Sep 21 08:59
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. Sep 21 08:59
---zodbot has changed the topic to: (Meeting topic: 2009-09-21 Fedora QA meeting) Sep 21 08:59
adamw #topic gathering people Sep 21 09:00
---zodbot has changed the topic to: gathering people (Meeting topic: 2009-09-21 Fedora QA meeting) Sep 21 09:00
adamw QA meeting time, folks: who's here? Sep 21 09:00
*kparal is here Sep 21 09:01
adamw wwoods: dpravec: kparal: oxf13: ping Sep 21 09:01
adamw poelcat: ping Sep 21 09:01
dpravec pong Sep 21 09:01
adamw hmm, must be a case of the mondays :) Sep 21 09:01
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adamw well, let's get going and see what happens Sep 21 09:02
adamw #topic last meeting follow up Sep 21 09:02
---zodbot has changed the topic to: last meeting follow up (Meeting topic: 2009-09-21 Fedora QA meeting) Sep 21 09:02
adamw the only real follow-up topic that I see is zsync Sep 21 09:02
adamw we tried to get the packaging problem kickstarted, but it doesn't appear to really be going anywhere yet. the -devel-list discussion thread is here, for reference: Sep 21 09:03
adamw #link https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-September/msg00525.html Sep 21 09:03
adamw kparal, nirik, anything else to add? Sep 21 09:03
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kparal unfortunatelly i have skipped this conversation somehow, so i have to first read it Sep 21 09:04
kparal which means nothing to add atm Sep 21 09:04
adamw alright Sep 21 09:04
adamw anyone want to follow up on anything else from last week's meeting? Sep 21 09:05
*nirik doesn't have anything to add there. Someone needs to start talking to various upstreams... Sep 21 09:05
Oxf13 adamw: pong, but I'm at LinuxCon Sep 21 09:07
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adamw Oxf13: ah, ok. Sep 21 09:07
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*jeff_hann here Sep 21 09:08
adamw hi, jeff. Sep 21 09:08
adamw well, next topic on the agenda is: Sep 21 09:08
adamw #topic autoqa update Sep 21 09:08
---zodbot has changed the topic to: autoqa update (Meeting topic: 2009-09-21 Fedora QA meeting) Sep 21 09:08
adamw wwoods: around yet? Sep 21 09:08
adamw hmm, i guess we can come back to it Sep 21 09:09
adamw so, onto: Sep 21 09:09
dpravec heh i think we need james to be back soon Sep 21 09:09
adamw dpravec: meanie! :) Sep 21 09:10
dpravec adamw:  :) Sep 21 09:10
adamw then, onto: Sep 21 09:10
adamw #topic upcoming events Sep 21 09:10
---zodbot has changed the topic to: upcoming events (Meeting topic: 2009-09-21 Fedora QA meeting) Sep 21 09:10
adamw so we're coming up on beta release reasonably soon now Sep 21 09:10
adamw we have the test compose process starting up this week and a beta blocker review on fridauy Sep 21 09:11
adamw obviously we need to get as much testing done on the test composes, particularly installation, as we can Sep 21 09:11
adamw there's quite a few beta blocker bugs in MODIFIED status that need fix confirmation, so if people can help out with that it'd be great. Sep 21 09:11
jeff_hann adamw: link please Sep 21 09:12
adamw Jeff_S: sec Sep 21 09:12
adamw grr Sep 21 09:12
adamw jeff_hann: a sec Sep 21 09:12
jeff_hann  :) ok, no prob Sep 21 09:12
kparal adamw: should i tag bugs recently reported against anaconda with the f12blocker keyword? Sep 21 09:12
dpravec adamw: not drectly related to this, but i was talking to anaconda guys... and they told me that they need to have stable api 14 days before each freeze/release. Sep 21 09:12
adamw #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=507678&hide_resolved=1 Sep 21 09:12
kparal meaning my own bugs Sep 21 09:12
adamw kparal: tag bugs as blockers that you think are blockers :) Sep 21 09:13
adamw f12blocker is the *final release* blocker Sep 21 09:13
dpravec do you think we can do something for them to make the life easier for anaconda devels? Sep 21 09:13
adamw if you think it should block the beta release, use f12beta Sep 21 09:13
adamw dpravec: what do you mean by 'have stable api'? they're the ones defining the API... Sep 21 09:13
dpravec they are using other tools Sep 21 09:13
adamw ah, i see. Sep 21 09:13
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adamw that's more of a devel discussion, i think, freezing everything that anaconda depends on two weeks before every pre-release would be a fairly major change Sep 21 09:14
adamw but of course for the final release there's already a general freeze in place at that point Sep 21 09:14
dpravec not freezing, just api freeze Sep 21 09:14
adamw still...but yeah, that could be practical. um. Sep 21 09:15
adamw Oxf13: what do you think of that? Sep 21 09:15
dpravec so they could use comandline tools for managing for example lvm Sep 21 09:15
Oxf13 adamw: that really falls into the critical path stuff Sep 21 09:16
Oxf13 and autoqa Sep 21 09:16
Oxf13 freezing without testing doesn't help nearly as much as just testing Sep 21 09:16
kparal that's true Sep 21 09:17
adamw i think we need jlaska back =) Sep 21 09:17
adamw denise: are you around? any input on this from the anaconda team POV? Sep 21 09:17
denise reading back ... Sep 21 09:18
adamw denise: key quote: "<dpravec> adamw: not drectly related to this, but i was talking to anaconda guys... and they told me that they need to have stable api 14 days before each freeze/release." Sep 21 09:18
dpravec maybe before release Sep 21 09:18
denise even if people just stopped moving libraries around! Sep 21 09:19
dpravec they explained to me that when other packages will upload changes in last day before freeze, anaconda will have big problem Sep 21 09:19
adamw jeff_hann: did you get the link? as you can see, there's currently four bugs marked as f12beta and modified, they're all installer issues Sep 21 09:19
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dpravec i mean those system packages anaconda cooperates with Sep 21 09:19
adamw denise: this sounds like maybe more a communication issue than anything else. are the maintainers of all components that are critical to anaconda _aware_ that they're critical to anaconda? are you in regular touch with them? Sep 21 09:20
jeff_hann adamw: link pleaseas,s jut looking at 522675 Sep 21 09:20
denise dpravec, or even if they just TOLD the anaconda team before adding changes likely to affect insta;; Sep 21 09:20
Oxf13 denise: seriously. wtf nss?! Sep 21 09:20
denise  ;-) Sep 21 09:20
jeff_hann adamw: link pleaseas,s jut looking at 522675s Sep 21 09:20
adamw jeff_hann: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=507678&hide_resolved=1 Sep 21 09:20
jeff_hann omg Sep 21 09:20
jeff_hann sorry Sep 21 09:20
jeff_hann something remained in konversation's buffer Sep 21 09:20
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jeff_hann I meant I was just looking at bug nr. 522675 Sep 21 09:20
jeff_hann couldn't it be a HAL problem? Sep 21 09:21
dpravec i think automated testing of anaconda could be a big help in this and thats probably what i would like to do Sep 21 09:21
adamw specific discussion would be best in the bug thread or friday's meeting Sep 21 09:21
denise dpravec +100 Sep 21 09:21
jeff_hann adamw: ok, will do Sep 21 09:21
adamw dpravec: well, autoqa already does that to some extent. Sep 21 09:22
adamw denise: are you guys in the loop on the autoqa stuff? you know where to go for the test results? Sep 21 09:22
dpravec adamw: yes i know.. but not enough Sep 21 09:22
adamw right Sep 21 09:22
denise adamw, i'm using https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-results/2009-September/date.html#end - correct? Sep 21 09:22
adamw denise: yup. cool Sep 21 09:23
adamw so, as i said, to me this kinda feels like a communication issue Sep 21 09:23
denise adamw: shared w/lwang too so kernel team knows Sep 21 09:23
adamw for e.g. i wouldn't have guessed off the top of my head that nss would be critical to anaconda (as it is if i'm understanding the above discussion right) Sep 21 09:23
denise adamw, agreed but some way to autodetect would be big help Sep 21 09:23
denise nss is onlythe most recent of many Sep 21 09:24
adamw is this...uh...Elio who's making all these exciting breakages^H^H^H^H^H^Hchanges to nss aware of it? :) Sep 21 09:24
adamw denise: autodetect what? Sep 21 09:25
*Oxf13 fears that there is an elephant in the room Sep 21 09:25
Oxf13 when it comes to late breaking changes in things like NSS Sep 21 09:25
denise adamw, dpravec, forwarding dcantrell's api checking idea - jlaska has seen this Sep 21 09:25
adamw thanks Sep 21 09:26
adamw Oxf13: what's the elephant? Sep 21 09:26
Oxf13 RHEL6 Sep 21 09:26
adamw rhel? what is this rhel of which you speak? =) Sep 21 09:26
Oxf13 There seems to be a number of maintainers who are told THEY HAVE TO GET THIS IN NOW for RHEL6 Sep 21 09:27
adamw yeah. it does feel like sometimes the walls between fedora and rhel processes are rather...chinese. Sep 21 09:27
Oxf13 and so people who aren't typically plugged into the Fedora thing are tasked with work and they make it happen, stumbling into problems with our Fedora process Sep 21 09:27
adamw i'm really not sure how we should go about addressing that, but it's definitely a valid concern... Sep 21 09:28
Oxf13 adamw: i think it's going ot take more impressing upon RHT managemment that Fedora policies and procedures cannot just be tossed aside under the banner of RHEL Sep 21 09:28
Oxf13 which isn't something those in the Fedora community can do easily Sep 21 09:29
adamw Oxf13: right, we redhat-fedora people should probably take the ball on that one Sep 21 09:29
denise i'm trying to take some of the pressure off by starting the official list of things RHEL6 will rebase from F13 Sep 21 09:29
adamw sounds like something we should just escalate through the traditional management set up Sep 21 09:29
Oxf13 adamw: we do have a bi-weekly meeting for just such things Sep 21 09:29
Oxf13 adamw: and we're identifying more and more folks who should be represented in such meetings Sep 21 09:30
Oxf13 so there is progress on that front Sep 21 09:30
adamw Oxf13: great Sep 21 09:30
Oxf13 and things are far better than the RHEL4/FC6 era Sep 21 09:30
adamw Oxf13: will you be able to pass on the concerns from this meeting? i think we can definitely say we all agree with your characterization Sep 21 09:30
jeff_hann aye Sep 21 09:30
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adamw aside from that, denise / dpravec, i'm sure wwoods would be happy to take any suggestions for more detailed automated installer testing Sep 21 09:32
dpravec adamw: i would love to get dogtail tests of anaconda going Sep 21 09:32
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adamw pity he doesn't seem to be here for the meeting :/ Sep 21 09:33
dpravec and testing it everyday for everything possible Sep 21 09:33
denise dpravec, and more testcases to automate - mgracik is available to help Sep 21 09:33
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dpravec denise: yes, we started talking about it, thats why i hear they (as a team) want some stable api 2 weeks before freeze... Sep 21 09:34
denise dpravec, and a pink pony ;-) Sep 21 09:35
dpravec heh :) Sep 21 09:35
dpravec i love ponies Sep 21 09:35
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adamw right :) my instinct is it'd be hard to get people to agree to a real freeze, but we can certainly improve on the 'not breaking stuff just for the hell of it with no regard to fedora processes' front Sep 21 09:35
poelcat adamw: pong Sep 21 09:36
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adamw poelcat: was just pinging for attendance :) hi! Sep 21 09:36
poelcat oh sorry... here at LinuxCon w/ Oxf13 and others Sep 21 09:36
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Oxf13 denise: adamw: moving the feature freeze back a week from Alpha freeze was an attempt at getting things to stop moving around and time for Anaconda to sync up before entering the freeze Sep 21 09:37
denise I'd settle for a heads-up on what's changing ... Sep 21 09:37
denise at least it saves the debug WTF changed now time Sep 21 09:38
denise the yum guys handled this well - gave anaconda a test image early Sep 21 09:38
Oxf13 denise: and to be fair, shit ain't supposed to be changing at this point Sep 21 09:39
Oxf13 people who are changing things now are doing it wrong. Sep 21 09:39
denise although sometimes there are justifications - harald wants to rebase udev to pick up many buffer overflow fixes Sep 21 09:40
denise and security is generally a good reason Sep 21 09:40
Oxf13 there are smart ways of doing that Sep 21 09:40
denise and he looked for dependencies and gave us a heads-up Sep 21 09:41
Oxf13 building it quietly one night and waiting for the shit to fall over to see what needs fixing... is not how to do that. Sep 21 09:41
denise agreed!!! Sep 21 09:41
adamw uh...it isn't? /me grabs notepad Sep 21 09:41
adamw =) Sep 21 09:41
Oxf13 coordinating with you, rel-eng, etc.. that's the way to do it. Get a test build, get a test compose, see what happens /before/ doing the rawhide build. Sep 21 09:41
Oxf13 I can't wait until we have a 'rawhide-testing' like setup Sep 21 09:41
kanarip maybe a rawhide-next like with linux-next Sep 21 09:42
kanarip everything that goes in there should just work perfectly fine and has been tested to some extent Sep 21 09:42
adamw ok, so, looks like we have avenues to explore here... Sep 21 09:42
*kanarip back to lurking Sep 21 09:43
dpravec yes thats my dream too Sep 21 09:43
dpravec having some kind of working rawhide Sep 21 09:43
adamw does anyone else have anything to raise in regards to the upcoming stuff for f12 beta? oxf13, anything you want to highlight? Sep 21 09:43
adamw dpravec: rawhide works fine if you're careful enough. it's the only thing i have installed on this system =) Sep 21 09:43
skvidal I have an item Sep 21 09:43
Oxf13 well, there is lots of risk out there Sep 21 09:43
adamw skvidal: go ahead! Sep 21 09:43
Oxf13 broken live images, broken input on x86_64 stage1/live Sep 21 09:43
Oxf13 I'm quite worried about the upcoming freeze Sep 21 09:43
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skvidal so I have two pkgs of yum for F12 - one is 3.2.24- which is more or less what's in rawhide right now Sep 21 09:44
adamw Oxf13: what's broken on the live images? i've had people using recent ones for bug report testing, didn't get any reports they weren't working Sep 21 09:44
adamw erf, sorry, we're on two conversations: let's go with skvidal for now Sep 21 09:44
skvidal the other option is 3.2.25 (soon to be released) which will include the yum history work geppetto did Sep 21 09:44
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skvidal it's been tested by clumens in anaconda Sep 21 09:44
Oxf13 adamw: I fixed up the broken deps on friday and composed live images from it at my house, both failed to boot pretty badly Sep 21 09:44
skvidal and it works and doesn't break things Sep 21 09:44
skvidal but it is NOT required by any wild stretch for f12 GA Sep 21 09:44
skvidal so long story short - should I wait on 3.2.25 until GA or not? Sep 21 09:45
adamw it's kind of a grey area, i suppose Sep 21 09:45
skvidal given the discussion above I thought this was relevant Sep 21 09:45
adamw i mean, if we were considering it a Fedora 12 Feature - which we certainly could have done - the answer now would be no, it's too late Sep 21 09:46
skvidal but it's not a feature Sep 21 09:46
adamw but since it's _not_ a feature, i don't think there's anything technically preventing it going in Sep 21 09:46
denise but you definitely did the right thing for anaconda Sep 21 09:46
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adamw (which is a sorta loophole) Sep 21 09:46
adamw Oxf13: wdyt? Sep 21 09:46
Oxf13 I've already talked about it with them. Sep 21 09:46
Oxf13 I'd /prefer/ to wait, but I won't throw a fit if it goes in Sep 21 09:46
Oxf13 I reserve the right to throw a fit if it goes in and something breaks and we lose rawhide for a day or more Sep 21 09:47
adamw that's kinda my instinct too. and i can see a downside to waiting - we wind up splitting development effort, i guess Sep 21 09:47
skvidal adamw: not really Sep 21 09:47
skvidal okay, I'll do this Sep 21 09:48
skvidal I'll issue a 3.2.24+HEAD patch for rawhide today that has history in it Sep 21 09:48
skvidal if things go sideways for any reason I'll patch it out and bump for rawhide Sep 21 09:48
adamw i guess that works Sep 21 09:49
skvidal there's no issue reverting a patch at all Sep 21 09:49
adamw is there a realistic chance it could break something important subtly in a way we don't notice for a bit? Sep 21 09:49
adamw (i know that's a hard question, but...) Sep 21 09:49
skvidal okay Sep 21 09:49
skvidal so here is what history does Sep 21 09:49
skvidal it records extra info during each transaction Sep 21 09:49
skvidal it doesn't change anything else on the system - just in /var/lib/yum/history/ Sep 21 09:50
skvidal it writes out a sqlite db Sep 21 09:50
skvidal so I'll do the HEAD into rawhide and see if anyone has any issues with it Sep 21 09:51
skvidal and I'll be immediately happy to roll it back out if we run into something Sep 21 09:51
adamw yeah, i think that sounds ok. Sep 21 09:51
adamw thanks for running it by us, though. Sep 21 09:51
skvidal nod Sep 21 09:51
adamw and working with the anaconda guys, that was awesome. Sep 21 09:51
denise much appreciated Sep 21 09:52
skvidal thank geppetto, too - he passed the bits over to clumens Sep 21 09:52
adamw praise all around! Sep 21 09:52
skvidal hah Sep 21 09:52
adamw Oxf13: ok, so, your beta concerns... Sep 21 09:52
adamw erf, just a sec Sep 21 09:52
adamw eek gotta step out for a minute, got a parcel to collect downstairs :) brb Sep 21 09:53
Oxf13 k Sep 21 09:53
poelcat Oxf13: wondering if we have a good wiki page to point people to on this topic besides the freeze pages Sep 21 09:54
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poelcat or is it just more common sense? Sep 21 09:55
Oxf13 poelcat: at one point, the Overview page within the releng name space tried to provide a high level view of how releases were done, and why we freeze at certain points, etc.. Sep 21 09:55
Oxf13 I haven't done a good job maintaining that page over time Sep 21 09:55
Oxf13 I wanted it to be the page that new maintainers could read through to grasp our development and release process Sep 21 09:56
adamw Oxf13: so, at least a couple of people i have checking out things for bug reports had no problem booting with the 20090917 auto-generated live images Sep 21 09:57
Oxf13 adamw: right, 17th was OK (that's what snap3 was made from) Sep 21 09:57
adamw ah Sep 21 09:57
adamw not sure if i've seen anyone test since then... Sep 21 09:57
Oxf13 adamw: something changed on the 18th that made me unable to get a live image booted Sep 21 09:57
adamw erk. Sep 21 09:57
Oxf13 there were no nightly live images on the 18th due to dep issues. Sep 21 09:58
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adamw we have 20090920 images up now Sep 21 09:58
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Oxf13 worth trying them out Sep 21 09:59
adamw k Sep 21 09:59
poelcat Oxf13: let's talk more I want to help make these pages better Sep 21 09:59
adamw what was the failure you saw with 20090918? Sep 21 09:59
Oxf13 adamw: couldn't get the live root fs mounted. It died halfway through bootup Sep 21 10:00
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Oxf13 adamw: it was only fleeting, I was working on some other things, and expecting family to show up so I didn't get a lot of time to file it or debug it Sep 21 10:00
Oxf13 I just saw it with both i686 and x86_64 Sep 21 10:00
adamw interesting, sounds like the failure we were having with live images transferred to USB sticks which was recently fixed... Sep 21 10:00
adamw well, if everyone can try out the 20090920 images and see if they work that'd be good Sep 21 10:01
adamw the other thing, x86-64 input problems Sep 21 10:01
Oxf13 yeah, i wondered if the fix broke the non-usb case Sep 21 10:01
adamw would that be https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=522675 ? Sep 21 10:01
buggbot Bug 522675: high, low, ---, kernel-maint, NEW, mouse,keyboard don't work when boot from LiveCD Sep 21 10:01
Oxf13 I can't confirm that it is the same problem on x86_64 live images Sep 21 10:01
dpravec Oxf13: can you give me url of the page you are talking about? (overview) Sep 21 10:01
Oxf13 that's why I was building live images to test with Sep 21 10:01
adamw Oxf13: i see Sep 21 10:01
Oxf13 dpravec: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Overview Sep 21 10:02
dpravec ah ty Sep 21 10:02
Oxf13 adamw: I spent most of friday comparing a i386 initrd to an x86_64 initrd looking for missing files, and not finding anything Sep 21 10:02
adamw well, i'm grabbing the 20090920 image now, i'll try it out here and see how it goes Sep 21 10:02
Oxf13 last time we had something like this, the x86_64 buildinstall was dying part way through and not all files were making it to the initrd Sep 21 10:02
Oxf13 that's not the case this time Sep 21 10:02
adamw k Sep 21 10:02
Oxf13 (or it's a cleverly hidden file somewhere) Sep 21 10:02
adamw so yeah, our big takeaway here is that we really need people to be banging on testing at present: the test compose when it comes out, direct rawhide install, the nightly live builds, whatever you like Sep 21 10:03
adamw just grab something and test it :) with an eye to the issues oxf13's raised, and the bugs on the f12beta list Sep 21 10:03
adamw and again, remember the blocker bug meeting on Friday, 15:00 UTC, #fedora-bugzappers Sep 21 10:05
adamw please come out if you can Sep 21 10:05
adamw poelcat will be sending an official announcement soon. Sep 21 10:05
adamw ok, we're over time as usual =) moving on... Sep 21 10:05
adamw #topic open floor Sep 21 10:05
---zodbot has changed the topic to: open floor (Meeting topic: 2009-09-21 Fedora QA meeting) Sep 21 10:05
adamw open floor time! anyone have anything to raise? Sep 21 10:06
adamw no? then closing meeting in 3... Sep 21 10:07
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adamw 2... Sep 21 10:08
adamw 1... Sep 21 10:08
adamw thanks for coming, everyone! Sep 21 10:08
adamw #endmeeting Sep 21 10:08
dpravec adamw: thanks ! Sep 21 10:08
---zodbot has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule Sep 21 10:08
zodbot Meeting ended Mon Sep 21 17:08:23 2009 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . Sep 21 10:08
zodbot Minutes: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-09-21/fedora-meeting.2009-09-21-15.59.html Sep 21 10:08
jeff_hann  :) Sep 21 10:08
zodbot Minutes (text): http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-09-21/fedora-meeting.2009-09-21-15.59.txt Sep 21 10:08
zodbot Log: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2009-09-21/fedora-meeting.2009-09-21-15.59.log.html Sep 21 10:08

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