QA/Meetings/20130304

Attendees

• adamw (138)
• jreznik (48)
• Viking-Ice (47)
• keramidas (15)
• Martix (13)
• tflink (10)
• pschindl (8)
• zodbot (6)
• nirik (5)
• satellit (4)
• mkrizek (1)

Agenda

• Previous meeting follow-up
• Test Days
• Open floor

Previous meeting follow-up

• adamw to push 'automatic blocker' proposal to production - this was done
• adamw to try and gather a bit more feedback on blocker process changes this week - dgilmore is okay with the changes, no objections from devel or fesco
• viking-ice or adamw to file a trac ticket for the smoke-test-for-spins idea - not done yet, put back on the agenda for next week
• tflink to take a look at the question of tracking qa tool discussion and bugs/tickets and make a broad proposal about what to do - proposals made and discussion is underway
  • We agreed to go with the simplest option of keeping one trac instance and CCing ticket mails to the appropriate list with the defaultcc plugin
  • viking-ice noted he is working on a proposal to replace trac with rt

Test Days

• After discussion of the pros and cons, we decided to make it clearer that test days can happen on any day (not just Thursdays)
• Other proposed topics left till next week

Open floor

• jreznik changed the QA calendar for F19 to show blocker meetings on Wednesdays
• We noted that blocker bug meetings should be starting up already, and discussed scheduling of RATS and TC composes

Action items

• adamw to push the blocker meeting changes live this week
• viking-ice or adamw to file a trac ticket for the smoke-test-for-spins idea
• adamw to propose RATS/TC1 dates on the list
• tflink to announce first blocker meeting for wednesday, and get blocker bug tracker app ready
• jreznik to pencil in QA changes as discussed
• adamw to draft up changes to the test day process docs to accommodate test days being on any day, test day co-ordinator to ensure they're balanced out

IRC Log

adamw	#startmeeting Fedora QA meeting	16:01
zodbot	Meeting started Mon Mar 4 16:01:26 2013 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	16:01
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	16:01
adamw	#meetingname fedora-qa	16:01
zodbot	The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'	16:01
adamw	#topic roll call	16:01
* satellit listening		16:01
* nirik is lurking in the back		16:01
* mkrizek is here		16:02
adamw	where in tarnation is everyone else?	16:03
* pschindl is here		16:03
* jreznik is here		16:03
* Martix is here		16:04
* Viking-Ice joins in		16:04
keramidas	#help	16:04
adamw	we all feel like that sometimes'	16:05
keramidas	sorry first time	16:05
adamw	pschindl: any idea where kparal is?	16:05
adamw	keramidas: just kidding :)	16:05
adamw	#chair satellit pschindl	16:05
zodbot	Current chairs: adamw pschindl satellit	16:05
pschindl	adamw: kparal is ill, so probably at home in the bed	16:06
adamw	oh there you are viking	16:06
adamw	ah, so we're missing kparal and tflink. okay	16:06
pschindl	and jskladan is also ill	16:06
Viking-Ice	does not look like a long meeting agenda anyway	16:06
adamw	wow, the plague's hit brno	16:06
jreznik	everyone will be ill in the end of meeting	16:06
Viking-Ice	except those that had the shark	16:07
pschindl	I missed it :(	16:07
* jreznik missed it too, maybe that's the reason pschindl and /me are not ill :D		16:07
adamw	#topic Previous meeting follow-up	16:07
adamw	heh	16:08
adamw	sigh. i hate mondays. juggling qa meetings and vomiting cats	16:08
adamw	so easy to mistake one for the other	16:08
adamw	"adamw to push 'automatic blocker' proposal to production" - did that	16:08
Martix	adamw: I may be ~5-10mins late each time from now for next 3 months	16:08
adamw	.fire martix	16:08
zodbot	adamw fires martix	16:08
Martix	adamw: biking between university faculties	16:09
adamw	#info "adamw to push 'automatic blocker' proposal to production" - done: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-February/114004.html	16:09
jreznik	thanks!	16:09
Viking-Ice	hurray!	16:10
adamw	Martix: c'mon, call up lance armstrong, he has some stuff to help you with that :)	16:10
adamw	yay automatic blockers indeed	16:10
adamw	should reduce the load some for alpha	16:10
keramidas	#commands	16:10
zodbot	Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #rejected #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk	16:10
adamw	"adamw to try and gather a bit more feedback on blocker process changes this week" - well, I poked dgilmore and he didn't object	16:11
adamw	i guess at this point we can put those into production, i'm just surprised there were no proposed changes from the tentative ideas from the meeting	16:11
adamw	so anyone have any thoughts on those before i go ahead and stick an action item in?	16:11
Viking-Ice	do you have a link to that discussion so it can be refreshed in peoples mind again	16:13
jreznik	adamw: I like the idea, the description sounds good for me too	16:13
adamw	Viking-Ice: just lemme grab it	16:14
adamw	Viking-Ice: it'	16:14
adamw	it's the stuff about capping at 3hrs etc	16:14
adamw	https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-February/113910.html	16:14
Viking-Ice	there is nothing i think to add to that from us anyway	16:15
Viking-Ice	did you get anyfeed back from -devel/fesco ?	16:16
Viking-Ice	which are probably the only wildcard since releng did not object	16:16
adamw	it's kinda hard to define 'devel'	16:17
adamw	the mail went to devel@ , and no-one said anything	16:17
adamw	so we can count that as acceptance, i think :)	16:17
Viking-Ice	yup ;)	16:17
jreznik	I don't see a reason for objections from devels/fesco	16:18
jreznik	all these automatic blockers would end up on the list	16:18
jreznik	I hope nobody will abuse the system... to propose other bugs this way (and block the meeting again ;-)	16:19
adamw	okay	16:19
adamw	let's go ahead and push the button then	16:19
Viking-Ice	we can always revisit this stuff anyway	16:19
jreznik	yep	16:20
adamw	#info "adamw to try and gather a bit more feedback on blocker process changes this week" - dgilmore seems okay with the changes, no objections from devel or fesco	16:20
adamw	#action adamw to push the blocker meeting changes live this week	16:20
adamw	"viking-ice or adamw to file a trac ticket for the smoke-test-for-spins idea"	16:20
adamw	did you do that, viking? i didn't	16:20
Viking-Ice	nope not yet	16:21
adamw	well, we fail	16:22
adamw	#info "viking-ice or adamw to file a trac ticket for the smoke-test-for-spins idea" - not done yet, back on for next week	16:23
adamw	#action viking-ice or adamw to file a trac ticket for the smoke-test-for-spins idea	16:23
adamw	"tflink to take a look at the question of tracking qa tool discussion and bugs/tickets and make a broad proposal about what to do"	16:23
adamw	so, tim did do that - i was hoping to continue the discussion here, but without tim and kamil it seems a bit pointless	16:23
tflink	I'm here - late but here	16:24
adamw	#info "tflink to take a look at the question of tracking qa tool discussion and bugs/tickets and make a broad proposal about what to do" - proposals made: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-February/113997.html and discussion is underway	16:24
Viking-Ice	is there anything left to discuss seperated qa-devel mailing list which is up and running and a seperated trac instance	16:24
adamw	i thought we hadn't made a decision between options 1 and 2 yet.	16:25
Viking-Ice	I'm planning on replacing the fedora-qa trac instance with an actual request tracker	16:26
Viking-Ice	which scales well and is 21 century mobile friendly	16:26
adamw	that would be nice, but we can still improve the trac setup as things stand	16:27
adamw	tflink: did you have any further thoughts on option 1 vs. option 2?	16:28
jreznik	Viking-Ice: that's that "actual request tracker"?	16:28
Viking-Ice	jreznik, not a bug tracker an request tracker there is a difference	16:28
jreznik	specific one?	16:28
tflink	adamw: not a whole lot - it's a question of how much effort separation is worth	16:29
Viking-Ice	jreznik, best practical rt	16:29
tflink	jreznik: I think he's talking about RT	16:29
Viking-Ice	http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/	16:31
adamw	god, they lose many points for me - how can you scare people with an example ticket like "There is no coffee to be found anywhere in the office"? *shivers*	16:32
jreznik	do we have any running instance?	16:32
tflink	with as close as we are to starting up F19 testing, I'm leaning more towards "leave them in fedora-qa trac" at least until F19 is over	16:32
Viking-Ice	jreznik, nope not yet	16:32
tflink	jreznik: there are several internal instances, I think	16:33
Viking-Ice	tflink, yeah this is F20 item	16:33
adamw	looking back over the thread, it looks like there's no real strong objections to going with the 'keep sharing qa trac for now but direct blocker app ticket mails to the qa-devel list' option	16:33
Viking-Ice	not that it actually matters	16:33
* nirik has about 0 desire to support another ticketing system. :)		16:33
jreznik	the thing is with fesco, we are looking for a better way for tracking features, egh. changes	16:33
Viking-Ice	nirik, I will be maintaining this one	16:33
nirik	Viking-Ice: cool.	16:34
adamw	i think we reassured you that the defaultcc plugin wouldn't affect your migration idea, right viking?	16:34
Viking-Ice	had anticipated we dont have knowledge or resource for anything else but trac	16:34
Viking-Ice	from infra	16:34
Viking-Ice	adamw, no I needlessly worried there	16:34
adamw	okay	16:34
* jreznik is interested in that wokflow part, should check it		16:35
* nirik is also interested in anything we can do to improve trac to meet folks needs better.		16:35
adamw	so i think for now we can just use defaultcc to send the blocker bug tickets to qa-devel , and we can revisit this topic in future a) if anyone is still unhappy with devel tickets being in the QA trac and/or b) when viking's ready to formally propose RT	16:35
jreznik	nirik: that's another option but you know how guys react on just mentioning trac...	16:35
adamw	nirik: the idea of a usable mobile interface is kinda nice.	16:35
tflink	adamw: works for me	16:36
adamw	but not any super high priority for me.	16:36
nirik	sure, can look into it.	16:36
adamw	#agreed for now we will go with the least-invasive option 1: use the defaultcc plugin to send blocker bug app ticket mails to the qa-devel list.	16:37
Viking-Ice	trac is less then optimal as an request tracker	16:37
Viking-Ice	it should die ;)	16:37
adamw	#agreed we can revisit the topic if there turn out to be problems with that, or if someone is unhappy with the volume of development tickets in qa trac, or when viking is ready to propose RT as an alternative tracker	16:38
adamw	okay - so martix has to go do his Tour de University Campus, so I said i'd move open floor up the agenda and the Test Day topic down the agenda to give him time	16:38
adamw	so:	16:38
adamw	#topic open floor	16:39
adamw	anyone have anything to bring up that isn't on the agenda? preferably not involving martix? :)	16:39
Viking-Ice	how does killing that stupid test day schedule involve him	16:39
jreznik	adamw: have you seen my reply to scheduling blocker bug meetings?	16:39
* jreznik changed the day to Wed		16:40
adamw	Viking-Ice: he's doing the test day co-ordination for this cycle	16:40
adamw	he actually added the topic	16:40
Viking-Ice	adamw, I assume on your authority as the team leader for RH Fedora QA	16:40
adamw	#info jreznik changed the QA calendar for F19 to show blocker meetings on wednesdays: http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-19/f-19-quality-tasks.html	16:40
adamw	Viking-Ice: nope, on his authority as 'just decided to go do it'	16:40
jreznik	so another topic - scheduling test composes and blocker bug meetings - at least the first ones	16:41
adamw	no-one else volunteered, and it doesn't need any authority, so hey	16:41
adamw	jreznik: ayup?	16:41
jreznik	?	16:41
adamw	oh, i see.	16:41
adamw	well, first blocker meeting should be wednesday, i guess.	16:42
jreznik	for example test composes are in TJ tight to submission deadline	16:42
jreznik	adamw: agree :)	16:42
adamw	you're suggesting moving TC1 back a week?	16:42
* Viking-Ice points out last release cycle we more or less had blocker bug meetings everyday ;)		16:42
adamw	er, forward?	16:42
adamw	er, making it earlier? :)	16:42
adamw	Viking-Ice: let's hope that doesn't happen again ;)	16:42
* adamw is generally always in favour of earlier TCs		16:42
jreznik	adamw: well, currently it's Thu 2013-01-17 ;-) as it's scheduled based on feature submission deadline for some reason	16:43
adamw	hm? qa calendar has Test Alpha 'Test Compose' on 03-26	16:43
adamw	releng calendar has "Create Alpha Test Compose (TC)" on same date	16:44
* satellit is there something to test atm? (f19) latest smoke netinstall fails http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/rawhide-20130301/Fedora/		16:45
jreznik	ah, you're right - I was confused by Create Installable Images for QA testing #1 during the schedule cleanup	16:45
* jreznik is trying to cleanup non-senses in the schedule...		16:45
adamw	that's for the RATS stuff i believe	16:45
adamw	which is still hanging around the schedule...	16:45
satellit	ok	16:45
* tflink needs to update the BBA so that it's working with the new naming convention and has F19 milestones		16:46
tflink	the production instance, anyways - the code is all there	16:46
jreznik	RATS?	16:46
adamw	Rawhide Acceptance Test Suite or something like that	16:46
jreznik	but I expect I can get rid of it?	16:46
adamw	where we run some (supposedly) automated tests on an iso build	16:46
* jreznik has never heard about rats...		16:46
satellit	https://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/anaconda/ work for f18	16:46
adamw	(but in fact it winds up being some poor intern doing them all manually, so it's like a TC but worse)	16:47
jreznik	ok	16:47
jreznik	sorry for confusion	16:47
adamw	i think last cycle we left one 'rats' run in there as a kind of sanity check	16:47
adamw	just for someone to go through some basic smoke tests on a boot.iso, ahead of tc1	16:47
jreznik	so do we want to continue with that?	16:48
jreznik	(with a different schedule of course)	16:48
jreznik	there's really a lot of stuff nearly nobody has a clue what does it mean anymore... polluting useful milestones	16:48
adamw	yeah, i'm thinking	16:49
adamw	TC1 03-19, RATS 03-12 ?	16:49
adamw	where 'rats' would just be twu or someone going over a boot.iso	16:49
adamw	what do people think of that?	16:49
Martix	back	16:49
adamw	http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-19/f-19-quality-tasks.html is the reference for anyone who doesn't have it	16:50
jreznik	it makes sense on 03-12	16:50
adamw	i always wonder why we have the release notes stuff on our schedule, but hey.	16:51
Martix	adamw: historical data states that schedule could be slipped aprox. 2-3 weeks at least :-)	16:51
adamw	Martix: historical data bedamned!	16:51
Martix	but I hope F19 won't :-)	16:51
* adamw starts poking people at random and saying 'feedback, damnit'		16:52
Martix	adamw: wiki-history? :-D	16:52
jreznik	adamw: if you don't want RN in a schedule, np	16:52
adamw	jreznik: well i mean, maybe someone knows why it's there	16:52
adamw	viking, any idea?	16:52
jreznik	adamw: that's why I try this cleanup round - it's huge and half of schedule does not make sense even for related teams :)	16:52
adamw	heh :)	16:53
adamw	good idea	16:53
tflink	yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have RN in the quality schedule	16:53
adamw	i'm guessing maybe we're supposed to help them go over new features? or something? hell if i knoiw.	16:53
adamw	anyway, we're running short on time here	16:53
adamw	jreznik: can you pencil it in as i suggested (03-19 and 03-12) and i'll try and get more feedback on the list?	16:53
adamw	#action adamw to propose RATS/TC1 dates on the list	16:54
adamw	#action tflink to announce first blocker meeting for wednesday, and get blocker bug tracker app ready	16:54
Viking-Ice	adamw, you mean with RN?	16:54
adamw	Viking-Ice: yeah	16:54
adamw	thought you might remember why it's in our schedule	16:54
Viking-Ice	because we are usually those that needed to fill out those "workarounds" ;)	16:55
Viking-Ice	or had to in the past	16:55
adamw	ah	16:55
adamw	seems kinda obsolete now?	16:55
jreznik	adamw: you can action me too :)	16:55
adamw	or maybe we just forgot :0	16:55
adamw	#action jreznik to pencil in QA changes as discussed	16:56
jreznik	(not to feel bad in the beginning of the meeting for not having any single follow up ;-)	16:56
adamw	#info viking-ice says release notes stuff is in QA's schedule "because we are usually those that needed to fill out those "workarounds" ;) or had to in the past"	16:56
adamw	#topic Test Days	16:56
adamw	sorry for the railroad, just wanted to get onto this before we run out of time	16:56
adamw	so martix says we're nearly out of thursdays but people still want test days	16:57
Martix	yep	16:57
Martix	going to add Tuesdays	16:57
Viking-Ice	kill testday schedule	16:57
pschindl	I don't see any problem with other days	16:57
adamw	we can open up tuesdays, or make it a free-for-all, or allow any day but wednesday, i guess...	16:57
Martix	and Mondays, Fridays...	16:58
Viking-Ice	the period opens at branch time and closes before we start composing final	16:58
adamw	i'm not really opposed, but just for the record, the idea of doing it on thursdays was to try make it a kind of regular 'tune in next week!' thing - get people to come back for more	16:58
Viking-Ice	that's how we intended test day to work	16:58
Viking-Ice	when we set it of	16:58
adamw	i'm not sure we ever quite got people onto that schedule, though, which may be why no-one but me really minds losing it	16:58
pschindl	on TD page is said that Thursdays are only recommended	16:58
jreznik	if Martix is willing to spend the time, I'm ok with any day...	16:58
jreznik	and it's great there's such demand for test days	16:58
adamw	true	16:58
Martix	jreznik: I'm just going to add Tuesday to schedule, I run only Desktop-related Test Days :-)	16:59
adamw	Viking-Ice: i just copy/paste the schedule from release to release, basically - do yell if you see any errors in it	16:59
Viking-Ice	adamw, yes there being schedule et al	16:59
Viking-Ice	we only put one to start with something	16:59
jreznik	any help with schedule needed? ;-)	16:59
Viking-Ice	but already knew if it would take of ( as it has ) it would outgrow it self ;)	17:00
Martix	jreznik: I'm glad we got so many proposals, now we need to do better marketing and attract more users to attend	17:00
adamw	Viking-Ice: well, we need to have the calendar of test days, of course	17:00
jreznik	it's not a bad idea to add test days period to the main schedule	17:00
adamw	it seems like there's a consensus to let test days be any time, so let's go with that	17:00
adamw	jreznik: sure	17:00
pschindl	maybe there shouldn't be anything like "free slot"	17:00
adamw	#agreed let's let test days happen any day the proposer wants	17:01
adamw	pschindl: right, that's what viking is suggesting	17:01
Viking-Ice	what we discussed in the past	17:01
jreznik	(and when it works for QA)	17:01
Viking-Ice	before you guys got all hired	17:01
adamw	and everyone seems fine with it	17:01
adamw	so i just 'agreed' it - we can figure out the details later	17:01
adamw	Martix: do you want an action item to draft up changes to the test day process docs, or shall i?	17:01
Martix	sure, you can	17:02
jreznik	just make sure we do not "over test day" people in one week etc.	17:02
adamw	right	17:02
adamw	but up to the test day co-ordinator to ensure that	17:03
jreznik	some distribution over time makes sense, and yes, it's for coordinator	17:03
Viking-Ice	fyi test event can span more then single day and arguable should ( even thou maintainer can only be present on one single day )	17:03
adamw	#action adamw to draft up changes to the test day process docs to accommodate test days being on any day, test day co-ordinator to ensure they're balanced out	17:03
adamw	Viking-Ice: we have been scheduling more 'test weeks' lately	17:03
adamw	it used to be just graphics, but now we have i18n and networking ones too i think	17:03
Viking-Ice	and there can be more then single test event on the same day	17:04
jreznik	Viking-Ice: it can but it's better for feedback and even marketing to market 1 day with all maintainers around	17:04
Viking-Ice	jreznik, we actually planed to host those days without requiring the presence of an maintainer	17:04
jreznik	Viking-Ice: well, the main marketing around test days is always - somebody would listen to you and it will be developer (in the best case)	17:05
keramidas	may i say something?	17:05
adamw	keramidas: sure, you don't need to ask permission	17:05
jreznik	but even without devs it makes sense and I like more flexibility up to coordinator	17:05
keramidas	hello, i am new here	17:06
adamw	hi, welcome	17:06
Viking-Ice	jreznik, for what purpose is that coordinator ping marketing?	17:06
keramidas	My name is Vasilis ( Bill if you prefer)	17:06
Viking-Ice	we need a calender	17:06
Viking-Ice	for the QA community	17:07
tflink	weren't people working on fedocal stuff for QA?	17:07
keramidas	I am from Greece. I am planning to host a presentation at the Univesity on how to contribute to open source communities. So far i have find a lot of people who are willing to participate	17:08
pschindl	yes. Lukas is working on QA calendar	17:08
adamw	tflink: i poked at the test deployment a bit, it works fine, but the data gets wiped every so often so there's no way to use it for 'production'	17:08
adamw	keramidas: great	17:08
keramidas	I am going to present the Fedora QA. And i believe this is a good way to attract a lot of people to participate at test days	17:09
adamw	keramidas: that would help for sure	17:09
adamw	when is your presentation?	17:09
keramidas	Basicaly how i started to contribute to the QA	17:10
keramidas	and how easy it is	17:10
keramidas	and that anyone should do it	17:10
keramidas	most of the persons i talked think that you have to be a "rocket scientis"	17:11
keramidas	t	17:11
adamw	well, that's a shame	17:11
adamw	let us know if you have any feedback on how to make it less scary	17:11
keramidas	read the wiki, go to the fedora-qa irc and say " Hi, i am new here. How i can help?"	17:13
keramidas	that's how i started	17:13
adamw	yup, that's what we hope people do!	17:13
adamw	okay, we're getting past time now	17:13
adamw	thanks for the feedback everyone	17:13
jreznik	time to play angry birds for adamw? :)	17:14
adamw	#endmeeting	17:14

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