QA/Meetings/20130805

Attendees

• tflink (118)
• handsome_pirate (40)
• atodorov (26)
• nirik (12)
• adamw (11)
• zodbot (7)
• kparal (7)
• ignatenkobrain (2)
• satellit (2)
• spoore (1)
• mkrizek (1)
• Southern_Gentlem (1)
• pschindl (1)

Agenda

• Fedora 20 Planning / Change review
• Open floor

Fedora 20 Planning / Change review

• F20 branch and Alpha TC1 scheduled date has been changed to 2013-08-20: public schedule, QA schedule
• Changes/VisibleCloud
  • We're still not clear on what exactly should be tested for cloud images other than "do they boot"
  • atodorov suggested that the EC2 AMIs could be checked for amazon's AMI creation guidelines
  • There were also concerns about how to test cloud images w/o an EC2 account and whether we want/need to worry about granting access to either an account for testing or an openstack instance - will require more discussion
  • Testing cloud images on infra's private cloud may be an option for some testing
• Changes/LabeledNFS
  • We should probably test nfs sourced installs from a F20 server with labeled nfs some - it's not clear whether there could be read errors on the server even though anaconda runs in permissive

Open floor

• atodorov is joining (part time) Fedora QA and helping with installation related items short term. He is a member of RH's 'RTT' team, which does anaconda testing for RHEL: he will be able to help us run some automated testing of Fedora images on RH's automated testing setup

Action items

N/A

IRC Log

tflink	#startmeeting Fedora QA meeting	14:32
zodbot	Meeting started Mon Aug 5 14:32:16 2013 UTC. The chair is tflink. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	14:32
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	14:32
tflink	#meetingname fedora-qa	14:32
zodbot	The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'	14:32
tflink	#topic Roll Call	14:32
tflink	#chair adamw kparal	14:32
zodbot	Current chairs: adamw kparal tflink	14:32
tflink	anyone here to be called a roll?	14:32
* satellit listening		14:32
* mkrizek is here		14:33
* atodorov is here (will introduce myself later)		14:33
* kparal joins late		14:33
* spoore is listening		14:33
* pschindl is here		14:34
* tflink waits a few more minutes as more people join		14:34
tflink	ok, let's get started	14:37
* tflink is ad-libbing a bit, hopefully will cover the parts that adamw had in mind		14:37
tflink	#topic Fedora 20 Planning/Change Review	14:38
* handsome_pirate is here, btw		14:38
tflink	supposedly TC1 is scheduled for this week	14:39
tflink	but I can't find the date	14:39
tflink	oh, I think this schedule has been changed recently	14:39
tflink	yep, everything got shifted back by ~ 2 weeks	14:40
tflink	#info fedora 20 branch is now scheduled for "no later than 2013-08-20"	14:41
nirik	yes, it's moved out 2 weeks from the 'no later than' thing.	14:41
tflink	#info fedora 20 alpha TC1 is now scheduled for 2013-08-20	14:42
tflink	#link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/20/Schedule	14:42
tflink	#link http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-20/f-20-quality-tasks.html	14:42
* tflink is reading through the changes marked in the meeting outline		14:43
nirik	I think that was decided as the actual schedule... but perhaps it didn't get enough votes.	14:44
tflink	nirik: do you know if that was in a fesco ticket or meeting minutes?	14:44
nirik	in ticket, let me look	14:45
handsome_pirate	Either way, I'm +1 for more time	14:45
nirik	https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1095#comment:22	14:45
nirik	so if folks don't think thats reasonable, do bring it up there. Otherwise the +2 week version is what we have	14:45
tflink	I'm sure there will be lots of happy us-ians about thanksgiving plans :)	14:47
tflink	nirik: we were planning on the old schedule, so another 2 weeks isn't going to be a horrible thing :)	14:47
nirik	yeah	14:48
* handsome_pirate will survive working through Thanksgiving		14:48
nirik	ditto on both accounts.	14:48
tflink	the timing may get interesting for other reasons, but let's cross that bridge if/when we get there	14:48
tflink	so, the list of features identified for attention today are:	14:49
tflink	System Wide:	14:49
tflink	LabeledNFS	14:49
tflink	NetworkManagerBonding	14:49
tflink	NetworkManagerBridging	14:49
tflink	VisibleCloud	14:49
* handsome_pirate just cced himself to schedule ticket		14:49
tflink	Self Contained:	14:49
tflink	NetworkManagerCLIAddConnection	14:49
tflink	Links available from wiki page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Meetings/20130805	14:50
tflink	anything in particular that people feel should be discussed?	14:50
* tflink interprets silence as a "not so much"		14:51
* handsome_pirate is looking through them		14:51
tflink	I think adam had concerns about visable cloud and our lack of cloudy testing but I don't know more details than that	14:52
handsome_pirate	LabeledNFS may want some attention	14:52
tflink	s/visable/visible	14:52
tflink	handsome_pirate: yeah, that could cause issues with nfs sourced install media	14:52
tflink	in addition to any more testing	14:52
* tflink is looking forward to bridging support in NM		14:53
handsome_pirate	+1 bridging	14:53
* atodorov has an old RFE open for VPN over NM bonding		14:53
handsome_pirate	The question that keeps coming up with cloud is how do we test?	14:53
handsome_pirate	re: visible cloud	14:54
tflink	handsome_pirate: not sure, honestly	14:54
handsome_pirate	For instance, I don't have a credit card, so I can't spin up an Amazon instance to test it	14:54
tflink	I think that the expectation is that people are either willing to pay for EC2 or have access to some openstack thing	14:54
handsome_pirate	Ah	14:54
atodorov	handsome_pirate: I have RedHat backed EC2 account, also specialize in installation testing	14:54
handsome_pirate	atodorov: But, I don't	14:55
handsome_pirate	I don't work for RH	14:55
tflink	handsome_pirate: I really don't know what the plan is there - the cost barrier to EC2 testing is one issue, though	14:56
atodorov	handsome_pirate, tflink: reasouce issue aside, what do you want to test for cloud images on amazon ?	14:56
kparal	the cloud people tested it themselves in the past releases, I don't expect it to change this time	14:56
Southern_Gentlem	kparal, but better to communicate than assume	14:57
handsome_pirate	kparal: Well, if it's going to be an official (almost primary) release, should QA not give it a go?	14:57
tflink	kparal: I think the concern is that the cloud folks really aren't testing all that much and if we want to be advertising more, qa should be testing in some form	14:57
handsome_pirate	^^	14:57
tflink	atodorov: that's a good question, really. cloud isn't all that different from VMs other than initial boot	14:57
* ignatenkobrain here		14:58
atodorov	tflink: agree, if it boots then it works :). for EC2 however we may want to test some of their AMI creation guidelines, like for example remove your ssh keys from the image	14:58
tflink	there's a lot of "OMG, it's cloud and therefore all complicated and stuff ..." which it is, but not as much from the users perspective	14:58
ignatenkobrain	hi all !	14:58
* handsome_pirate gets that		14:59
handsome_pirate	It's a glorified VM	14:59
tflink	atodorov: good point, especially with the concerns raised about digitalocean as of late	14:59
handsome_pirate	I just think that QA should pass off on it if we're going to be making it as visible as it's going to be	14:59
atodorov	tflink: I'm not aware of this. Can you send me a link pls	14:59
tflink	atodorov: http://missingm.co/2013/07/identical-droplets-in-the-digitalocean-regenerate-your-ubuntu-ssh-host-keys-now/	15:00
tflink	handsome_pirate: sure, but now we've come full circle to "what do we want/need to test about cloud images?"	15:01
handsome_pirate	tflink: We don't exactly have much in the way of criteria, do we?	15:01
tflink	I'd love to test more of the qcow2 images, I *think* they're pretty much the same as AMIs content-wise	15:01
handsome_pirate	tflink: I assume that at least the minimal criteria would apply	15:01
tflink	handsome_pirate: because they're pretty much glorified VMs	15:01
handsome_pirate	tflink: Aye	15:02
handsome_pirate	As I said above	15:02
tflink	the fancy stuff is more os/distro agnosti	15:02
tflink	agnostic	15:02
handsome_pirate	It would be cool to make sure it works	15:02
tflink	handsome_pirate: yep, I liked the phrase so I'm stealing it :-P	15:02
handsome_pirate	heh	15:02
handsome_pirate	It's Creative Commons :)	15:02
tflink	anyhow, we're getting off into the weeds a bit	15:03
handsome_pirate	Aye	15:03
atodorov	#link http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/AESDG-chapter-sharingamis.html#public-amis-identity	15:03
tflink	#info we're still not clear on what exactly should be tested for cloud images other than "do they boot"	15:03
tflink	#info atodorov suggested that the EC2 AMIs could be checked for amazon's AMI creation guidelines	15:04
tflink	is ^^^	15:04
tflink	phrased well enough to understand?	15:04
handsome_pirate	Aye	15:05
atodorov	yup	15:05
tflink	I wonder if that fits better into the automation stuff that the cloud SIG has been talking about	15:05
* tflink hasn't asked them about their progress on that front lately		15:05
handsome_pirate	tflink: I can ping them about it	15:05
tflink	handsome_pirate: otherwise I'm sure it'll come up @ flock	15:06
handsome_pirate	True	15:06
tflink	#info there are also concerns about how to test cloud images w/o an EC2 account and whether we want/need to worry about granting access to either an account for testing or an openstack instance - will require more discussion	15:07
tflink	OK, any more concerns about cloud	15:07
tflink	?	15:07
* adamw apparently can't read clocks		15:07
adamw	morning folks	15:08
* tflink has always been of the opinion that clocks are overrated :)		15:08
tflink	adamw: you've already been chaired, feel free to take over	15:08
* tflink isn't sure if there were specific concerns you had about the listed features		15:08
* handsome_pirate thinks adamw should fire himself		15:08
adamw	i'm with handsome_pirate on the visible cloud stuff, that's why i put that Change on the meeting list, fwiw	15:08
adamw	the others are just changes that are new since last meeting	15:09
adamw	tflink: you may as well keep driving	15:09
tflink	tagged nfs might be interesting for install testing	15:09
tflink	adamw: ok	15:09
tflink	any other concerns about visible cloud images?	15:09
* satellit afk		15:10
tflink	#topic Fedora 20 Planning/Change Review - LabeledNFS	15:10
adamw	i haven't read all the scrollback, but my thinking was we might need to tweak the criteria a bit and maybe add a test case or two, just for the t hings that have been discussed	15:10
* nirik notes we could look at granting some qa folks access to the infra private openstack cloud...		15:10
nirik	(if testing in openstack is desired)	15:10
adamw	check the image boots and any important 'first time steps' for cloud images fly	15:11
tflink	nirik: the thought was that it might be a better option than EC2 testing most of the time	15:11
tflink	it -> openstack	15:11
handsome_pirate	+1	15:11
nirik	yeah, could be.	15:11
nirik	but they are quite different too... so both would be best.	15:12
tflink	nirik: true but I figured that we could get the common stuff done with openstack to reduce the amount of paid testing needed for EC2	15:13
* nirik nods		15:13
atodorov	tflink: we can use some spot instances in EC2 as well to reduce the cost further	15:13
tflink	#undo	15:13
zodbot	Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x249ba610>	15:13
tflink	atodorov: true, I've certainly done that before and saved money	15:14
tflink	as long as you don't mind getting an instance ripped out from underneath you suddenly :)	15:14
tflink	which has happened to me	15:14
tflink	and others, I assume	15:14
atodorov	tflink: for personal use I set a high enough spot bid and haven't seen an instance shutting down on me	15:15
tflink	#info testing cloud images on infra's private cloud may be an option for some testing	15:15
tflink	atodorov: yeah, I learned about not setting the bid too low when my hadoop cluster fell over when instances got yanked :)	15:16
tflink	ok, anything else before moving on? we have ~ 15 minutes left	15:16
* handsome_pirate is good		15:16
tflink	#topic Fedora 20 Planning/Change Review - LabeledNFS	15:16
tflink	I should have split off the cloud stuff as well but either way	15:17
tflink	my main question here is whether we want to account for labeled nfs for install tesitng	15:17
tflink	testing	15:17
* tflink apparently can't spell today		15:17
handsome_pirate	We should	15:18
adamw	how do you mean 'account for'?	15:18
tflink	adamw: testing installs with and without	15:18
adamw	so basically run the NFS install tests against F20 servers?	15:18
tflink	not sure it'll make a huge difference, though. anaconda runs in permissive	15:18
tflink	adamw: it sounds like less of a concern when you put it that way	15:19
tflink	so probably not needing to call out install tests with labeled nfs so much	15:19
handsome_pirate	Still, it may not be a bad idea to do it once, just to check	15:20
adamw	sure	15:20
atodorov	tflink, adamw: anaconda runs in permissive but who handles access enforcement - client or server ?	15:20
tflink	atodorov: good question	15:20
tflink	server, I assue	15:21
tflink	NFSv3 is RPC based	15:21
atodorov	then it is possible to get a read error	15:21
tflink	I assume that NFSv4 is going to be similar that way	15:21
tflink	but I've never really gotten into how NFSv4 actually works	15:22
handsome_pirate	But, assumptions ...	15:22
tflink	yeah, I know	15:23
tflink	#info we should probably test nfs sourced installs from a F20 server with labeled nfs some	15:23
tflink	#undo	15:23
zodbot	Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x26085f90>	15:23
tflink	#info we should probably test nfs sourced installs from a F20 server with labeled nfs some - it's not clear whether there could be read errors on the server even though anaconda runs in permissive	15:24
tflink	any other stuff to bring up before open floor?	15:24
tflink	atodorov: do you want to do a bit of an introduction?	15:25
atodorov	tflink: yes, I will be quick	15:25
tflink	#chair atodorov	15:25
zodbot	Current chairs: adamw atodorov kparal tflink	15:25
tflink	atodorov: go ahead, not sure what you want to call the topic	15:26
kparal	#topic Fedora QA and RTT cooperation	15:26
tflink	kparal: that works :)	15:26
atodorov	#info atodorov is joining (part time) Fedora QA and helping with installation related items short term. Long term I'd like to work on ifrastructure too. I have 6+ years of anacodna testing experience for RHEL	15:26
atodorov	that's the short info ^^^	15:27
adamw	welcome!	15:27
handsome_pirate	Ahoy!	15:27
atodorov	I'm coming from RedHat's internal team that work on installation testing for RHEL	15:27
tflink	welcome to the party!	15:27
kparal	atodorov should be running some RTT tests in house and sending us results on the TCs and RCs	15:27
kparal	that could save us a ton of manual work, or at least identify some interesting bugs	15:27
atodorov	I will be working with kamil in the short term and bring some of the internal installation testing wisdom and automation to Fedora	15:27
tflink	I forget, what is RTT short for?	15:28
* handsome_pirate is happy to see more vict... I mean helpers		15:28
kparal	Release Test Team	15:28
atodorov	RTT == Release Test Team	15:28
atodorov	aka Installation QE	15:28
tflink	thanks, I knew what they did, just not what RTT meant :)	15:28
tflink	atodorov, kparal: anything else you guys want to cover before moving into open floor?	15:29
atodorov	one more thing	15:29
atodorov	long term I'd like to see a Fedora QA lab (infrastructure) like we have for RHEL - all automated	15:29
atodorov	feel free to include me in meetings and such on this topic	15:29
tflink	atodorov: we're working on it :)	15:30
atodorov	I can do Python and Django and Bash coding ;)	15:30
kparal	ok, thanks	15:30
handsome_pirate	atodorov: See tflink's taskbot blog posts	15:30
atodorov	handsome_pirate: will do, still getting up to speed	15:30
* handsome_pirate has to go		15:31
handsome_pirate	peace, y;all	15:31
tflink	atodorov: I'll have some questions about how RTT automates installs but that'll be for another time	15:31
* atodorov has worked on Beaker patches for EC2 in the past but they never got merged back I think		15:31
atodorov	tflink: I will introduce myself on the mailing list and you can ping me via email	15:32
tflink	anyhow, we're over time so if there's nothing else that needs to be covered in meeting ...	15:32
tflink	atodorov: sounds like a plan	15:32
tflink	#topic Open Floor	15:33
tflink	Any items for open floor?	15:33
* tflink sets the Fedora QA patent-pending non-deterministic fuse for [0,5] minutes		15:34
tflink	boom!	15:35
tflink	Thanks for coming everyone!	15:35
tflink	#endmeeting	15:35

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