ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-jun-11

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Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 11-Jun-2007

Buildroot contents for updates

  • The buildroot used for fedora 7 updates building is not self updating. It only contains things from f7-gold, and stable released updates. This means that one update candidate cannot be built against another update candidate without rel-eng interaction. We haven't been very vocal about this yet, and it isn't documented anywhere.
  • Do we want to adjust things or leave them be?
  • See IRC log for discussion points

Decision: Talk to lmacken about modifying Bodhi to do a sanity check on published buildroot contents before allowing an update be pushed. After that we will make the dist-fc7-build buildroot auto-update with -candidate builds and see what happens.

Expand Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs)

  • f13
  • rel-eng has more and more people helping out so we want to make sure that things are well documented
  • Infrastructure team started doing SOP/ pages (Standard Operating Procedure) and they are proving very useful. I'd like to start doing them for Release Engineering too
  • thinking of ReleaseEngineering/SOP/<task> as the layout, the SOP page itself could be a list of pages and info on how to add an SOP
  • Proposal: As a release engineer, as you do tasks for Fedora, check to see if there is an SOP/<task> page. If there isn't, create one and poke rel-eng folks for review.
  • This is more of a mandate than a vote item.

Early Torrent Release - Rahul Sundaram

  • explore possibility of doing early torrent releases.
  • See IRC log for discussion of pros and cons and affect on mirrors

Decision: Investigate with Infrastructure team ways of getting more mirrors to participate in seeding the torrent (early?). Do not release torrent to general public before the agreed upon coordinated release date/time.

Upgrade path enforcement - Rahul Sundaram

  • Discussion surrounding policy that upgrade path should not break from a particular point on, for example, after Test1 or Test2--enforced by Release Engineering.
  • See IRC log for discussion details

Decision: Recommend to FESCo policy that upgrade path never be compromised either by removing builds or NEVR regressions. File RFE in Koji to enforce rule at build time

IRC Transcript

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<tr id="t12:57"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Buildroot contents for updates - JesseKeating</td><td><a href="#t12:57" class="time">12:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t12:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Meeting time coming up.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t12:57" class="time">12:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t12:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Release Engineering meeting starting now.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t12:59" class="time">12:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jwb_gone: notting: jeremy: rdieter: warren: wwoods: ping</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">yes?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">here</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:00"><td class="action" colspan="2">* nirik sits in the bleachers with his coffee. </td><td><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">notting: just role call.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">ptchu</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">curmudgeonly grammar teacher living in my frontal lobe requires me to say: it's roll call.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:01"><td class="action" colspan="2">* jeremy is here</td><td><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">like honor roll.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">wwoods: cinnamon roll?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">pork roll?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">my clock is just slow :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: but what if I'm asking to see who's here to fill what role?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">role roll call?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:02"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mmcgrath pongs</td><td><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">f13: totally</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">and if you're playing back a filmstrip of this event, you can say: roll role roll call</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok, first topic is kind of fun.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">fun</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">As it currently stands, the buildroot used for fedora 7 updates building is not self updating.  It only contains things from f7-gold, and stable released updates.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">this means that one update candidate cannot be built against another update candidate without rel-eng interaction.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">We haven't been very vocal about this yet, and it isn't documented anywhere.  I have to ask if we want to adjust things or leave them be.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">f13: was this by design or an oversight?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mmcgrath: design</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I think we want to adjust that. People have been complaining about how huge a PITA it is to get several interdependent packages built</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">it's how things work internally since before I got here.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">might be worth trying, anyone against self-updated buildroots?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:04"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mmcgrath just wonders what we might break if we change it.</td><td><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">oh. then how did updated stuff get put into the buildroot for interdependent builds?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">nothing would break until someone puts something broke in updates-candidate and someone builds against it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mmcgrath: we run the risk of broken buildroots, things built against things that don't go out as updates, etc...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">Here's one possible solution, similar to the fedora-cvs work queue.  Create a fedora-rel-eng work queue, where people can ask for that kind of request in a controlled manner.  We can use that until we have a more automated process in packagedb.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: we have a 'dist-fc7-override' tag that we can tag builds with to make them available.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">how many requests has releng had to add something to the buildroots?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">warren: you more want to eventually get to where people can specify "use these unreleased updates" for my build...  not something in the packagedb</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm bringing pjones in, I know he's had some opinions on this in the past.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">f13: right, which requires rel-eng intervention (and extra action by maintainers --> OMGWTFREGRESSION)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, oops, I shouldn't have added a package to dist-fc7-build I'm guessing.  I'll have to undo that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">hey, so where are we?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">how did this work for Core / Extras?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">wwoods: Extras self-updated, Core, dunno (not?)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">extras always got everything after builing.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">wwoods: extras always built against latest, even unreleased</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">wwoods: core required intervention</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: basically I've stated the current situation (not updating) and gathering thoughts/opinions on either keeping it like it is, or changing it and risking the breakage.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mschwendnt (hwoever the hell you spell that) and dgilmore had some stats for how often the buildroot got fubar in Extras</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">I know it will be fun for me on the next Xfce update... there are lots of dependency chains there... 3 inital packages, then everythign needs them and each one in the row after that...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">It would seem like we need some kind of a hybrid where people can create private branched buildroots for building their stuff, or something?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">f13: at the very least, if we leave the default like it is, we need the ability to make it pull from updates and such via BuildRequires:</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: well, the buildroot currently is populated with f7-gold and stable updates</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I admit not having deep knowledge of how much overhead that would require. All I know is that a bunch of maintainers are unhappy about it. Which is not news to anyone.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: it just doesn't have any updates-testing or -candidate builds.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">so if, for example, I know a new anaconda needs a newer kudzu which I've just built, then I can BR: it and have that work.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">how about a bodhi tag/box? "add to buildroot for more builds"?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">pjones, BR with version?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: in the current situation, unless kudzu has been pushed out as stable, you'd have to request rel-eng interaction to tag the kudzu build.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">mdomsch: yes</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b"> mdomsch</th><td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">pjones, even then, you need to have the repo available for mock to use it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">mdomsch: agreed</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mdomsch: if the buildroot was self updating, chain-build would work</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">almost.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">f13: that's a big win for peopel</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">I'm of the KISS mind, auto-update buildroot, rel-eng can step in and fix any breakage (ie, untag bustedness) if need be.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">f13: chain-build has other problems though.  not the least of which being the syntax is weird</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I don't think chainbuild has the concept of 'this was already built, but wait unti it's available to build me'</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: yeah, syntax is interesting.  NOt sure how to make it better.  Open to suggestions</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">f13: chainbuild worked for me that way, when I tried it.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">rdieter: *nod*.  We should be able to tell "oh, kudzu is fucked, we need to roll it out as well as ${dependent packages that got built}"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">rdieter: oh cool, maybe it is smart enough (:</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: my worry is that $(dependent packages that got buitl) may have made it out to stable updates</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">and then it's not so easy/forgiving to just make it go away</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">rdieter: I think we have problems where an update isn't available to build with more often than we have problems where an update was bad.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">f13: that seems like something we should be able to preclude from happening</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">pjones: agreed.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: with some work sure, bodhi could query to see if any component in the buildroot for an update is as of yet unreleased.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">f13: nod.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, good idea.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><td class="action" colspan="2">* f13 signs lmacken up for more work.</td><td><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">A compromise maybe would be to enable updates-testing in the buildroot?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">rdieter: that's not good enough I don't thik.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">think.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">f13: with that, I'd be okay with allowing updates-candidates in buildroots.  but it's going to cause problems</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">rdieter: you may want to issue a big stack as one update.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">eg, jakub builds new glibc, it's in updates-testing and he wants it to be there a week</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">f13: ok, nevermind.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">people that want to build and immediately push (or security updates, etc) will get flagged</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: well, jakub builds into dist-fc7-candidate anyway, something completely not imported for his own personal tests, then tags it for updates-cnadidate by hand when he knows it's good</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">but yes, I can see that causing problems, so perhaps an override option.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">unless that will break deps :/</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">So I'm willing to experiment with Fedora 7 updates to see how it goes, once we get some bodhi love.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, how could bodhi know if something that was in the buildroot is not yet pushed?  Does mock output list *all* packages that were installed?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">f13: perhaps allow package builders to specifically tag their updates-testing things for building?  you'd probably still need the "this can't be released until that is" infrastructure, but it wouldn't have the problem jeremy mentioned</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: koji tracks buildroot components for a build.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, ah.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I thought we were going to start allowing updates to have a set of packages?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">yeah, I think it would make sense to leave default as it is now, and allow a checkbox for maintainers in bodhi to add their update-testing update to the buildroot?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: that's a possiblity.  Would have to think about how to construct that workflow</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">nirik: that really doesn't help with things like chain-build</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">nirik, oh, so a third unpublished layer?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ah right.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">that doesn't help chain-build.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">true.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">bodhi could push to THREE layers instead of the current two.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">unpushed -> buildrootonly -> updates-testing -> updates</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">well, it already has pending/updates-testing/updates</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Proposal:  We talk to lmacken about modifying bodhi to do a sanity check on published buildroot contents before allowing an update be pushed.  We then make the buildroot self updating and see what happens.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">ah</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">f13: +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: you'd still introduce a break in the workflow where you can't rely upon chain-build.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">nirik, what does pending mean?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: it means it hasn't gone out in updates-testing yet</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">warren: someone added that they want it as an update, but hasn't pushed it to updates-testing yet</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">f13: update pushed live, or pushed to -testing?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">f13: as an aside, the problem with chain-build is that it doesn't really act on a checked out tree</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">f13: +1 on your proposal above, btw.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pjones: lets talk about chain-build over in #fedora-devel after this with mbonnet ok?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f"> pjones</th><td class="text" style="color: #97974f">ok</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: I don't understand the question?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e"> abadger1999</th><td class="text" style="color: #539e9e">f13: +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: oh I see.  Well, it shouldn't allow something to go into -testing unless what was used to produce it is on the way to -testing, ditto final.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">f13: I'm trying to clarify "pushed" in your proposal - pushed where?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">although we could be more relaxed with -testing.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">ah, gotcha</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">+1 either way, but I wanted to be clear</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">k.  I'll work with lmacken to see which is more feasable.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">This may take a while to implement so we'll still need documented workflow for people to ask rel-eng to tag things for them.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: notting: your votes?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">f13: open the floodgates!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">let's see what we can do...  I'm open to trying things, though still a little concerned for the obvious reasons</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: ditto (:</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Ok, so that passed.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">poelcat: Decision: We talk to lmacken about modifying bodhi to do a sanity check on published buildroot contents before allowing an update be pushed.  We then make the dist-fc7-build buildroot auto-update with -candidate builds and see what happens.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:24"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Flesh out SOPs for rel-eng tasks - JesseKeating</td><td><a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so rel-eng has more and more people doing things for us, we'll want to make sure that things are well documented.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">The Infrastructure team started doing SOP/ pages (Standard Operating Proceedure) and they are proving very useful.  I'd like to start doing them for Release Engineering too</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:26"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mclasen mumbles about silly acronyms</td><td><a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm thinking of ReleaseEngineering/SOP/<task>  as the layout, the SOP page itself could be a list of pages and info on how to add an SOP</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mclasen: suggestions?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, sounds good to me.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">since you spell out release engineering there, why not spell out procedure as well</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">*shrug* I'm lazy, and there is already precidence for SOP/ in the Infrastructure pages</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:27"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mclasen relurks</td><td><a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I don't really think it matters if the page is linked to from ReleaseEngineering.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Proposal: As a release engineer, as you do tasks for Fedora, check to see if there is an SOP/<task> page.  If there isn't, create one and poke rel-eng folks for review.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I guess this is more of a mandate than a vote item.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Ok, moving on</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:29"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Early Torrent Release - RahulSundaram</td><td><a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mether wanted us to talk about doing early torrent releases.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">f13: I found out at linux tag that OpenSuSE actually has some of their mirrors setup as torrent seeds.  We could also do that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm personally not a huge fan of this, last time the mirror admins caught wind of something like this they got kinda pissy.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">like.. torrents open up before the mirrors finish synching?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mmcgrath: some of our mirrors act as torrent seeds</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">mmcgrath: eg, I know kernel.org does</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><td class="action" colspan="2">* mmcgrath didn't know that.</td><td><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: yeah, I don't recall from the email how soon he wanted it open.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">f13: I'm not a fan, so -1 from me</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">how do we get the seed to them?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mmcgrath: it's done after release though, not before release.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">ahh</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mmcgrath: they probably just copy the mirrored isos into place then fire up bittorrent</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I think I kind of fail to see the point</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">yeah, believe so</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><td class="action" colspan="2">* f13 tries to find the posting</td><td><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">A mirror with lots of bandwidth doesn't need the data to be useful to a torrent cloud.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">wwoods: I think the point is to encourage torrent usage.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">They will rapidly obtain it and become a seed within 10-20 minutes.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">did anyone try the torrent right after release this time around?  I wonder what the speeds were.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">f13: right, we don't actually publish the layout for torrent, though</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Torrent only release</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">--------------------</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I remember this was discussed before but when a new release is made and</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we are waiting for the mirrors to sync why not do a torrent only release</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">immediately?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">mmcgrath: I did, speed was good (not great).</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">The advantage is that we won't suffer as much from infrastructure and</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mirror problems with the mad rush in everybody trying to get it at the</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">same time. Not sure if this has any disadvantages.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">rdieter: but you didn't think "gosh this is so terrible I'll just go to download.fedora.redhat.com and get it from there" ? :)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657"> poelcat</th><td class="text" style="color: #57a657">mmcgrath: speed was not that great for at least 24 hours, maybe longer</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">why would  it be terrible?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">The more people that download a torrent, the faster it goes.  A mirror server's bandwidth only accelerates it.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">mmcgrath: nope, I think it took ~2 hrs for me.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Well, bittorrent is pretty damn dumb in how it works</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657"> poelcat</th><td class="text" style="color: #57a657">warren: but not if everyone is starting at zero to begin with</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">warren: not if no one has it and everyone is hitting torrent.fp.o to get it in the first many hours.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so if there are a lot of seeders in the other side of hte world from you, and a couple local, torrent will try all of them anyway and you'll be stuck getting bits slowly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">f13: so, disadvantages: 1) annoy mirrors 2) at most, you're getting a day or two extra release</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">notting: that was my thought too.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">really we should ask ourselves "Is increasting torrent speed over the first 24 hours something we need to fix"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">plus confusion in the masses as to what the release date really is</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mmcgrath: We should always consider making things faster.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">but at what cost!  Oh the humanity!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I think we could publish torrent layouts early or ask for mirrors officailly to help torrent.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so I'm interested in looking at improving that.  I don't thin kjust releasing the torrent to the general public is the way to achieve this though.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I think getting some mirrors to seed the torrents might be the smarter thing to do</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b"><nod></td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I don't think breaking the release dates is a good idea</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">we could limit early release to people with a fedoraproject.org account and ask them to start seeding early.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mmcgrath, how do you limit that?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Proposal:  Investigate with Infrastructure team ways of getting more mirrors to participate in seeding the torrent (early?).  Do not release torrent to general public before the agreed upon coordinated release date/time.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mmcgrath, torrent has no login</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657"> poelcat</th><td class="text" style="color: #57a657">how much impact would there be if 20-30 individ people had adv access to GA IOS and started their own seed at the minute release went live? not before</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">warren: by restricting access to the .torrent file</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mmcgrath, so it could be leaked easily</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">warren: your right, lets do nothing.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">that'll work though</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">poelcat: such as.. mirrors?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mmcgrath, I'm not suggesting that we do nothing.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">with f7 it was leaked and appeared on some of the torrent sites... torrentspy, etc.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657"> poelcat</th><td class="text" style="color: #57a657">notting: no idividual people like you and me... running from home</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93"> nirik</th><td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">(before release)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">f13: +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">Leaks are OK IMHO, but we better make sure the ACTUAL release is leaked.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">(People don't receive a trojaned copy, or not quite final.)</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">i think mirrors would do better</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I do too</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b"> mmcgrath</th><td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">f13: sounds good to me.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mirrors can make use of symlinks/hardlinks whatever to participate, mirrormanager could potentially help</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">When I ran a mirror with DS-3 bandwidth (45mbit) and I joined the user swarm, I was downloading FC1 ISO's at like 7MB/sec.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">hmm... that doesn't add up.  we might have had an OC-3 by then.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">afk 15 mins...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:40"><td class="action" colspan="2">* f13 pushes for more votes.</td><td><a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren, notting, jeremy, wwoods ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">sure!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">poelcat: Decision: Investigate with Infrastructure team ways of getting more mirrors to participate in seeding the torrent (early?).  Do not release torrent to general public before the agreed upon coordinated release date/time.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Upgrade path enforcement - RahulSundaram</td><td><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Another mether topic</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Supported live upgrade from last test to general release</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">---------------------------------------------------------</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">This was agreed upon for Fedora 7 test 4 in QA meetings but we didn't</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">actually announce it. It would encourage us to be more careful in</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">pushing out any updates after the last test release and it would</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">encourage more people to try it out the development branch and provide</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">us feedback.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:42" class="time">13:42</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I think all he's looking for here is that we set policy that upgrade path shouldn't break from that point on, and we enforce that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">This means don't pull packages from rawhide in "oops" cases?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">THere has been some discussion around making it so that upgrade path works from day one of a release cycle though, pre-test1 even.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: or revert with epoch</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">at the very least, we're saying that official support for (Last Test Release) -> (Final Release) upgrades should be considered</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I'm all for disallowing pulling of packages from rawhide *always*.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I'm somewhat lazy and and would like to set policy only from say test2 or test3 on.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">If you need to undo a mistake, use epoch.   People are really overly emotional about epoch.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">but I can be convinced otherwise.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">in theory there would only be critical fixes in that time period anyway</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: "this time" we'll actually be good about that!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">We lose testers whenever we require users to undo a mistake manually.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40"></straight_face></td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">right, we're saying test3 (where test3 is final) - I'm sure mether would be happy to have it at test2 or earlier</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">f13: an addict will never change until *they* decide to change</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">I'll leave it to you all to determine whether that's feasible or not</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">test2 would be even better because in theory that's the feature freeze</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I would be OK with a compromise of test2.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">so guaranteeing that users will be able to easily upgrade from test2 to final</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">will mean getting lots more testers by test2. or so we'd hope.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: that's not what we're saying.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, part of this is a rule, "After test2, rawhide yum update should not require manual intervention."?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: all I'm talking about right now is enforceing upgrade paths.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: I don't know if we can really ensure that either</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">f13: how is that different? why wouldn't upgrades work?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><td class="action" colspan="2">* lmacken strolls in</td><td><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">notting: %post fuckups</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">yeah, why wouldn't that work? assuming that you've already installed test2 by a supported method..</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">other such things.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">beyond the "fixing" of here's a new package</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">I don't want to put us on the line for some things that may be out of our control.  I'm happy to enforce upgrade paths, which goes a long long way to this, but I'm not going to say we can prevent manual intervention completely</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, i'm unclear on what exactly this proposal would mean.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: from say test2 on, any new package build has to have a clean upgrade path from the previous released package</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, will we stop the insanity of undoing a %{version} upgrade by removing it from rawhide and expecting users to manually downgrade?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">no making builds dissappear, no downgrades without epoch</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e"> abadger1999</th><td class="text" style="color: #539e9e">Right. things like broken deps could also need manual intervention.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, is that the entire scope of this proposal?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: are you looking for something else?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">no</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I'd be happy with that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">+1 for after test2</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Can we come up with a reasonable cutoff point?  forever?  test1/2/3?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">I would prefer forever, but test2 is a good compromise.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">or even test1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">test2 seems like a reasonable compromise for the first run for this</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">test1 is a bit early - it's pre-feature freeze so we can't guarantee there won't be big changes between test1 and test2</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">perhaps rel-eng can suggest test2 to FESCo, and they'll ratify/adjust as necessary.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: good point, like packages going away</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">Who opposes "forever"?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:50" class="time">13:50</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">since the goal of this change is to make upgrades from test->final much easier, we can't necessarily hold those promises for anything pre-feature-freeze</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: I do.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, do you similarly oppose test1?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">yeah, pretty much the same reasons.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">up to test2 things are going to be somewhat fast and loose.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">but you're OK with the test2 compromise?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:51" class="time">13:51</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">yeah, I'm fine with test2 on</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">OK, let's do it.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:52"><td class="action" colspan="2">* f13 is interested in notting and jeremy's opinion.</td><td><a href="#t13:52" class="time">13:52</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jeremy said "sure!"</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">i'd sort of like earlier, but there are occasionally going to be things that have to 'go away'</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">as a general thing, it's fine... but as notting says, there are always going to be exceptions</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">of course, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to have it at all times</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">exactly</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">we need to make things easier for users, not harder</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:55" class="time">13:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">yep, I'm 110% agreed.  just want to make sure we're realistic about the fact that we're not going to hit 100%</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:55" class="time">13:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, if that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:55" class="time">13:55</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:56"><td class="action" colspan="2">* warren tries to understand the logic of 110% not reaching 100%.</td><td><a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">'s the desire, should we just set policy to have upgrade paths from day one, and only make exceptions when necessary?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888"> jeremy</th><td class="text" style="color: #488888">f13: yep</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:56" class="time">13:56</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, does this mean builds in F7 should fail if it isn't already superceded by a build in devel now?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:57" class="time">13:57</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #5959a9">what do you do with packages that don't make it</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jwb_gone: untag them!</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">oh wait...</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jwb_gone, concrete example?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #5959a9">how does that fix the repo?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">warren: huh?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #5959a9">foo-1.1.2.fc6 > foo-1.1.1.fc7</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #5959a9">what do you do in that case?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">we're talking about devel, not f7</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:58" class="time">13:58</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: ^^</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">jwb_gone, epoch</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #5959a9">was an example.  s/fc6/fc7 s/fc7/fc8</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">People really need to get over their fear of epoch.  It is better to use epoch than to break automated upgrades and to lose testing.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #5959a9">mether's option was to pull that package from the repo in that case.  i think that is wrong</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t13:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">Yes, mether is wrong in that case.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t13:59" class="time">13:59</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">who does the epoch and build though?  Should we just file bugs and expect people to fix it, or will rel-eng have to go on a warpath at some point and fix all these things ourselves?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">policy is one thing, but how does one enforce policy?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:00" class="time">14:00</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, before brew, beehive would reject builds if N-V-R went backwards.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">We could do something like that.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:01" class="time">14:01</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">at some point we should have an rpm-diff tool running for proposed updates</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">and that's something it should test for</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, I don't see anything wrong with enforcing N-V-R progression in the buildsystem itself.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:02" class="time">14:02</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">but yeah, putting that into the buildsys works</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">warren: you mean E-V-R ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:03" class="time">14:03</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">ok, so we set policy now, and ask for koji enhancements to block a build of nevr goes backwards, for some value of backwards.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">"N-V-R ADVANCEMENT ERROR: foo-1.2.3-2.fc8 is older than foo-1.2.4-1.fc8, please consider releasing a new version upstream or use an Epoch."</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mclasen, yeah</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:04" class="time">14:04</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">Proposal:  Recommend to FESCo policy that upgrade path never be compromised either by removing builds or NEVR regressions.  File RFE in Koji to enforce rule at build time</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:05" class="time">14:05</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">"E-V-R ADVANCEMENT ERROR: foo-1.2.5-1.fc7 is newer than foo-1.2.4-1.fc8, please upgrade the version in F8 before F7."</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e"> notting</th><td class="text" style="color: #42427e">sorry. gotta head out</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:06" class="time">14:06</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">f13: does that affect our flexibility wrt to building updates in different tags, if they inherit from each other ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">mclasen: example?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mclasen, you mean FC6, F7 and devel for example?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">yeah</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: I'm not quite sure I want to do forward blocking yet.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:07" class="time">14:07</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mclasen, version-release-disttag should be sufficient to prevent problems</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: because it's more important to get a security update out for a releaesd product than it is for rawhide.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">I was thinking about a situation where I build something for f7 first, and then my next devel build has to be newer than that</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555"> mclasen</th><td class="text" style="color: #a25555">probably not a problem in practise</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, if both F7 and F8 are out as stable distros that might become a good idea.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: that's more enforcement at update push time, rather than build time</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">mclasen, I'm thinking the buildsys only enforces forward E-V-R progression for a "stable" distro build if both distros are stable.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:08" class="time">14:08</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: lets not dictate what order a maintainer builds things in.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, I don't see a problem with doing it between two stable releases, when F7 and F8 are both released.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: and really, upgrading from a releaed f7 to a released f8 is going to have issues anyway</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">sure, but there shouldn't be any reason why a package in F8 should be < than F7</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:09" class="time">14:09</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">becuase currently your upgrade to f8 via supported methods is anaconda, and you can't add update repos then.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: at release of hte udpate time sure.  At build time, no.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, how is this a problem really?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: what right do we have to dictate what order people do their builds in?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, most cases where N+1 < N in extras were accidents.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:10" class="time">14:10</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, OK, I guess we can consider this later.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so long as the update requests land at the right time I'm happy.  I could give a shit what order they built the updates in.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #5959a9">f13, there's nothing to prevent fc-6 builds from going higher</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9"> jwb_gone</th><td class="text" style="color: #5959a9">it doesn't use koji</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jwb_gone: not forever</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:11" class="time">14:11</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">so I didn't see any votes on the last proposal</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40"><f13> Proposal:  Recommend to FESCo policy that upgrade path never be compromised either by removing builds or NEVR regressions.  File RFE in Koji to enforce rule at build time</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:12" class="time">14:12</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><td class="action" colspan="2">* bpepple gives a +1 from the peanut gallery.</td><td><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, what happened to the test2 part?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, or at least the mention the "get an exception"?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">who grants exceptions?  who makes that choice?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: I adjusted it to be forever.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:13" class="time">14:13</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">we were convinced that "forever" is workable and useful</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: rel-eng grants exception, dealt with on case by case basis.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, ok.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144"> rdieter</th><td class="text" style="color: #818144">f13: +1 proposal</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, +1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:14" class="time">14:14</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">+1</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: ?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">well, he was pretty happy with this before.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">poelcat: Decision: Recommend to FESCo policy that upgrade path never be compromised either by removing builds or NEVR regressions.  File RFE in Koji to enforce rule at build time</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:16"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Open Discussion</td><td><a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">that's the end of the agenda.  We're over time.  ANy pressing things?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:16" class="time">14:16</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685"> wwoods</th><td class="text" style="color: #854685">do we have an official (or draft) policy for updates-testing stuff?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:17" class="time">14:17</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, until we're able to enable more rel-eng people to do pushing, could we have pushing done a little more often?</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">wwoods: all we decided on last week wwas to allow maintainers to skip updates-testing if they wanted to.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13, sometimes pushing has waited on 2-3 days for example.  That has to be frustrating to our contributors.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">warren: yeah, I'm trying to do the best we can here.  Once a day isn't totally unreasonable.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">um, since release of f7 I don't believe I've gone for more than 2 days without a push</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a"> warren</th><td class="text" style="color: #8c4a4a">As long as we don't go beyond 1 day I think we're OK.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><td class="other" colspan="2">{{Template:Tip}} f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel</a> -- Meetings often get logged -- see schedule in the wiki for next meeting</td><td><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
<tr id="t14:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40"> f13</th><td class="text" style="color: #407a40">thanks all.</td><td class="time"><a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a></td></tr>
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