ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-jun-25

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Fedora Release Engineering Meeting :: Monday 2007-JUN-26

Fedora 5 EOL

  • Fedora 5 goes EOL end of this month, not very far away.

Decision: jkeating will create a wiki page to track the various tasks releng needs to accomplish to shut down Fedora 5 updates. Various tasks will be assigned to various releng folks and an announcement will be sent regarding the tasks and timing of the shutdown.

Automatic promotion of updates

  • FESCo couldn't agree on anything so they approved the general concept of doing automatic promotion of upgrades. It's up to releng and QA to create a framework around how it should work.

Agreed upon Constraints

  • autopromotion of updates default to off, checkbox can be clicked to turn it on, delay defaults to 7 days.
  • Ability for (at least) other maintainers to block or stop an update is a pre-requisite to enabling auto-promotion functionality in our update system.

IRC Transcript

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Idea.png f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Release Engineering Meeting <a href="#t12:59" class="time">12:59</a>
f13 ping jwb notting jeremy warren rdieter wwoods <a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
* notting is here <a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
* jeremy is here <a href="#t13:00" class="time">13:00</a>
* warren here <a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
warren f13, I'm preparing my condo for final home inspection before sale, I personally will discuss only in the bodhi automatic pushing topic. <a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
warren today <a href="#t13:01" class="time">13:01</a>
f13 ok. <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13 warren: I'll re-ping you when that comes up <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13 poelcat: are you present as well? <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13 (or at least logging...) <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
poelcat present and accounted for :) <a href="#t13:02" class="time">13:02</a>
f13 still need rdieter jwb and wwoods. <a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
jeremy wwoods is still on vacation <a href="#t13:03" class="time">13:03</a>
notting slacker. <a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
f13 spot: are you here? <a href="#t13:04" class="time">13:04</a>
* spot surfaces <a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
spot my brain HURTS. <a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
spot too much email. <a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13 too much mail eh? <a href="#t13:05" class="time">13:05</a>
f13 ok, lets get started. <a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
Idea.png f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Fedora 5 shutdown - JesseKeating <a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13 Fedora 5 goes EOL end of this month, not very far away. <a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13 (Saturday) <a href="#t13:06" class="time">13:06</a>
f13 Max already sent an announcement about it, I'd like us to generate the "shutdown" plan <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
notting woo! <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13 Lets look at Core first <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13 Core, we'll want to disable pushing of FC5 updates in the update tool. <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13 That should be easy enough <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13 I'll also lock the dist-fc5-updates-candidate collection so no more builds happen. <a href="#t13:07" class="time">13:07</a>
f13 What do we need to do for Extras? <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
spot We also need to take the FC5 branch out of the tools on cvs-int <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
f13 dgilmore: are you around? <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
f13 Right so Extras. <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
jeremy spot: why would we take them out of the tools? (and what tools?) <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
f13 We need to remove FC-5 as a valid branch request <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
spot jeremy: the branch creation tools <a href="#t13:08" class="time">13:08</a>
spot the addpackage && mkbranch tools have a "valid branch list" <a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
warren 1) Stop branching. 2) Stop building. 3) Stop the push tools from using that directory. <a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
warren f13, do we soon later want to move FC6 to merged CVS and bodhi? <a href="#t13:09" class="time">13:09</a>
jeremy spot: bah. cvs-int != cvs.fp.org in my head <a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13 warren: that's a later discussion. We're not doing it this week. <a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
warren k <a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13 so lets start assigning people some tasks. <a href="#t13:10" class="time">13:10</a>
f13 I'm going to make a wiki page for Fedora5Shutdown and list what needs to be done. <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13 I'll take the Core stuff <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
warren I can take care of the branching and pushing scripts, coordinating with Michael Schwendt. <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13 can I get some volunteers for the Extras? <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13 anybody sucker enough to search teh wiki for FC-5 references and correct them? <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
warren That too. <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
spot f13: i'll do that <a href="#t13:11" class="time">13:11</a>
f13 ok, great. <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
warren spot, you want to take the branching & pushing scripts coordination with Michael Schwendt? <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
f13 since the 30th falls on a Saturday, do we want to do this on Friday or the following Monday? <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
spot warren: i already took one sucker task, that one is yours. ;) <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
warren f13, why not Monday? Activity there has been very slow lately anyway. Not a huge burden. <a href="#t13:12" class="time">13:12</a>
f13 warren: so that means we'll want to push anything pending on Monday before we shut it down <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
warren f13, that's fine, I can handle that. <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13 once again I'll pick up the Core side. <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13 warren: shall we shoot for 11am EST Monday for the last push? <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
warren f13, ooh, one lesson learned from FC-4 EOL <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
f13 warren: go <a href="#t13:13" class="time">13:13</a>
warren f13, we should be sure stupid last-minute dep breakage doesn't happen on the final push. <a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
warren that was a little embarassing. <a href="#t13:14" class="time">13:14</a>
dgilmore f13: whats up <a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
warren f13, I guess I'll take care of all Extras aspects of the 5 shutdown. <a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
warren dgilmore, shutting down FE5 buildsys on Monday. <a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
dgilmore warren: it takes me 5 minutes <a href="#t13:15" class="time">13:15</a>
warren dgilmore, k <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13 warren: well, kernel modules may be broken, are you going to go through and "fix" those? <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13 warren: from Core side that's the only thing that is broken IIRC <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
* Bob-Laptop thinks to need an orbital laser to target EOL installs, that makes last day dep breakage no big deal... <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
warren f13, it depends on how long they've been broken, lets say we wont introduce new regressions on the final push. <a href="#t13:16" class="time">13:16</a>
f13 dgilmore: I think we're coordinating for Monday the second, sometime in the afternoon. <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
warren Bob-Laptop, orbital laser is still down. <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13 warren: that makes sense. They've been broken in core land for a /long/ time, but I don't think there are many GFS users in Core 5 <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
warren f13, nod <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
f13 warren: do you think an Extras push will take more than an hour on Monday? <a href="#t13:17" class="time">13:17</a>
warren f13, yes, it is very slow. <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
warren f13, I'll begin it in the morning. <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
warren f13, after i've verified that it isn't totally hosed, I'll ask dgilmore to shutdown the FE5 buildsys <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13 ok. <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13 warren: what time owuld you expect the push to go "live" ? <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a>
f13 this has bearing on the announcement we send out, although I suppose we could say Monday morning is the cut off and be vague... <a href="#t13:19" class="time">13:19</a>
warren f13, just say Monday morning at 9AM eastern is the cut-off and we'll shutdown in sequence from there. <a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
f13 k <a href="#t13:20" class="time">13:20</a>
dgilmore warren: i should shutdown FC-5 builds before you push <a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
f13 shut off at 9, check status, turn on to do targetted builds, shut off again <a href="#t13:21" class="time">13:21</a>
warren turning back on shouldn't be needed <a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
warren but the option will be there. <a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
warren let's move on <a href="#t13:22" class="time">13:22</a>
f13 sure. <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13 anybody else think of anything on this topic? <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
Idea.png f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Automatic promotion of updates - JesseKeating <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
f13 warren: ping (: <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
* warren here <a href="#t13:23" class="time">13:23</a>
warren f13, so it seems FESCo couldn't agree on anything <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13 so FESCo approved the general concept of doing automatic promotion of upgrades. It's up to releng and QA to create a framework around how it should work. <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13 warren: they agreed that they want the possibility for automatic promotion. <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
warren but not how <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13 right. <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
f13 how is a tough term. <a href="#t13:24" class="time">13:24</a>
warren How about we talk about the time delay first <a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13 really releng and qa need to setup some boundries and workflow ideas, then hand it to FESCo for approval and to lmacken for implementation <a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
warren I initially proposed 7-day default, which can be overridden by the submitter to be any number of days or NEVER. <a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13 I think 7 days is fine. <a href="#t13:25" class="time">13:25</a>
f13 the only thing is I'd like there to be a checkbox for 'autopromote' that is unchecked by default. <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
warren I think the cries of people who dislike 7-days by default are overblown. If they REALLY don't want it they can turn it off. <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13 checking the box gives you access to a dropdown box of numbers for days <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
warren oh <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13 which would default to 7 <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
warren You would prefer default of NEVER? <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13 yes <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
warren Why? <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13 I want it to be a concious decision on the part of the maintainer to set himself up for failure. <a href="#t13:26" class="time">13:26</a>
f13 at least for the initial go of this <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
abadger1999 warren: I talked with jwb after the meeting -- his main concern is that there are tests (like broken deps) that aren't being done right now and auto-promote will make that harder to deal with. <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
notting mmm, optimism <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
f13 if there is overwhelming evidence that A) things are going smoothly with users and B) the maintainers at large want it by default, we can flip it so that it's enabled by default. <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
warren abadger1999, that shouldn't be an issue, auto-promote can be auto-backed out if it breaks something. <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
f13 oh hrm, I forgot a housekeeping item. <a href="#t13:27" class="time">13:27</a>
warren f13, except maintainers will be confused that the default changes <a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
warren f13, they saw one behavior and it suddenly changes, they might not notice. <a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13 poelcat: Decision: jkeating will create a wiki page to track the various tasks releng needs to accomplish to shut down Fedora 5 updates. Various tasks will be assigned to various releng folks and an announcement will be sent regarding the tasks and timing of the shutdown. <a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13 warren: so we don't make it "sudden" we make it coordinated and announce it to fedora-devel-announce <a href="#t13:28" class="time">13:28</a>
f13 warren: and maybe we put something in the front of bodhi that alerts users that something has changed. <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
warren hmm sounds good. <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
f13 bodhi could probably easly have a big red flag somewhere that says "New version, see changes" <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
warren OK, default to NEVER, let the submitter choose. <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
warren Before this goes live however, we need some way for others (not the submitter) to stop an update. <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
* rdieter pokes in (after lunch) <a href="#t13:29" class="time">13:29</a>
f13 warren: right, thats kind of the next topic. <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13 lets get a vote on the first tiem. <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13 Proposal: autopromotion of updates default to off, checkbox can be clicked to turn it on, delay defaults to 7 days. <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
f13 +1 <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
warren +1 on Default to NEVER, submitter can choose number of days starting with 7 <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
rdieter +1 <a href="#t13:30" class="time">13:30</a>
warren no nays. <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
f13 jeremy: spot: notting: ? <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
spot +0 <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
notting +1 <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
spot i see both sides, not willing to pick one <a href="#t13:31" class="time">13:31</a>
f13 k <a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
jeremy +1 <a href="#t13:32" class="time">13:32</a>
f13 ok, that passes. <a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
f13 We'll argue about minimal time later, maybe let QA handle that. <a href="#t13:33" class="time">13:33</a>
f13 The next part should be pretty easy yeah? We want there to be a way for somebody to block an update from autopromotion, incase the maintainer doesn't notice the complaints in time. <a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
f13 at least from the conceptual level I think this is a no-brainer. How it's implemented deserves some thought. <a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
warren Saw my proposal regarding this? <a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
f13 briefly <a href="#t13:34" class="time">13:34</a>
warren In an ideal case, it would be something like this... <a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
warren <a href="http://updates.fedoraproject.org/FEDORA-2007-XXXXX">http://updates.fedoraproject.org/FEDORA-2007-XXXXX</a> is a URL that forever describes a given update. <a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
warren This is a separate interface from bodhi's developer interface. This interface is for users to read details about an update and make comments on it. <a href="#t13:35" class="time">13:35</a>
warren In addition to comment on updates or updates-testing, this is where we can have a STOP!!! button. <a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
f13 it would still be /ran/ by bodhi though right? <a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
warren Perhaps we can allow anonymous (no FAS account) commenting with CAPTCHA, but FAS account is required for a user to click STOP!!!! <a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
warren Yes, operating on the same bodhi database. <a href="#t13:36" class="time">13:36</a>
warren just a different view for public consumption. <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13 k <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren talked a bit with lmacken on this topic already <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13 so FAS required for a stop. The maintainer or "admin" could clear the stops though yes? <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren yes <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13 and/or manually push anyway? <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren yes <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
f13 k, that works for me. <a href="#t13:37" class="time">13:37</a>
warren The current developer bodhi interface already has commenting but no Stop button, we could deploy sooner if we have the Stop button there. <a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
warren Work on the public interface for later deployment. <a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
warren a Stop button in the developer bodhi interface would be important if we do any auto-promotion <a href="#t13:38" class="time">13:38</a>
notting and then,we have the stop wars! <a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
f13 we'll see. I don't see this as a higher priority to other things like dep checking or auto buildroot population with bodhi sanity checking. <a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
warren nod <a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
warren So we don't deploy auto-promotion at all until dep checking or auto buildroot population are done? <a href="#t13:39" class="time">13:39</a>
f13 well, not necessarily, but if only one person is working on bodhi, there are priorities. <a href="#t13:40" class="time">13:40</a>
f13 so I'm happy with that aspect of things. <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
warren I highly suggest that a Stop button at least in the maintainer bodhi interface is a prerequisite for auto-promotion. <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13 warren: sure. <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13 warren: I think a stop button is absolutely a pre-req <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13 the priorities I'm talking about are say autopromotion period vs ability to depcheck updates <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
notting how many updates have we had that would have needed a stop button? <a href="#t13:41" class="time">13:41</a>
f13 A couple, but those may have been broken deps related <a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
f13 I think there have been some kde testing-updates that are broken and would get a STOP vote <a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
jeremy notting: I can arrange for some ;-) <a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
notting ok. just want to make sure we're not beating the cart before the dead horse <a href="#t13:43" class="time">13:43</a>
warren anything more on this topic? <a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
f13 for stopping? not from me. <a href="#t13:44" class="time">13:44</a>
warren I have to go <a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
f13 are there more aspects of autopromotion that we should discuss? <a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
f13 warren: can you wikize your proposal somewhere so we can all reference it and make changes as we go along? <a href="#t13:45" class="time">13:45</a>
warren f13, ok sure <a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
Idea.png f13 changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: RELENG-Meeting - Open Discussion <a href="#t13:47" class="time">13:47</a>
f13 anything anybody wants to discuss? <a href="#t13:48" class="time">13:48</a>
f13 ok, guess I'll wrap it up <a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>
f13 thanks all. <a href="#t13:49" class="time">13:49</a>

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