[Di Dez 18 2007] [16:59:46] Time for the KDE SIG meeting, who's here? [Di Dez 18 2007] [16:59:58] me [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:04:50] small meeting [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:04:58] Too small. :-( [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:05:13] right [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:06:05] rdieter said he might be too busy to attend, he has to watch his children today. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:06:14] than: Ping? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:06:53] Kevin_Kofler: pong [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:07:44] OK, so we're 3 at least. :-) Let's start, maybe rdieter will chime in later. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:07:56] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Fedora KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-18 - Trolltech's Phonon GStreamer backend". [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:08:27] From what I've heard from upstream, Trolltech has committed a GStreamer backend for Phonon to kdebase-runtime, but it isn't really working yet. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:08:55] Once it works, we'll probably want to make it the default though. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:09:05] Kevin_Kofler: +1 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:09:06] It's also likely to become the default for 4.1 upstream. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:09:53] But for now, we have to keep the xine-lib one as default until further notice (i.e. until TT or KDE upstream report the GStreamer backend is usable). [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:09:55] does this mean xine is going to die a long horrible death? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:10:36] There'll probably still be things using xine-lib, just as there's stuff using MPlayer and stuff cooking their own solutions (e.g. VLC). [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:11:04] But KDE 4 and Amarok are likely to switch away from xine-lib, at least by default. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:11:20] \o/ no more installing 5 sets of codecs for 5 sets of media apps [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:11:21] Amarok will be using Phonon in Amarok 2 and thus follow KDE 4's decisions. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:11:22] do you know what kaffeine will use? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:11:41] I'm not sure what state Kaffeine is in. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:11:50] afaik they haven't started porting to kde4 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:11:52] I think they wanted to use Phonon. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:12:40] There's one video player being worked on, it's a port of Codeine. That one is using Phonon, but currently needs Phonon-xine because they're working around some missing stuff in the current Phonon API by calling xine-lib directly. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:14:21] I think there isn't much more to say about this topic until Phonon-GStreamer works upstream, so let's move on. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:14:26] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Fedora KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-18 - kdemultimedia3 compat package?". [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:14:59] do we really need kdemultimedia3? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:15:00] The issue here is that at least taxipilot is relying on aRts-related libraries provided by kdemultimedia 3. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:15:05] It now has broken dependencies. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:15:35] Also it's possible that some apps will fail at runtime due to trying to load some aRts modules which were in kdemultimedia3 and not finding them. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:16:08] But taxipilot definitely has broken dependencies, and it looks like it isn't easy to get rid of those dependencies, they're actually used. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:16:26] See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=410851 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:16:27] Bug 410851: low, low, ---, Hans de Goede, ASSIGNED , taxipilot: drop BR: kdemultimedia3-devel [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:17:45] So where do we go from there? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:18:26] Kevin_Kofler: why do we still need kdemultimedia3? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:19:13] Because at least one package requires it. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:19:26] Maybe more silently require it, aRts uses dlopened plugins extensively. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:19:37] But taxipilot requires it directly. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:19:43] See the bug report I linked to. :-) [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:19:46] is it even possible to have both, phonon and arts, running and working at the same time? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:20:02] Should be no problem with PA in principle. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:20:19] Now aRts and PA is its own set of nightmares. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:20:29] But that's independent of coexistence with Phonon. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:21:00] if it's not to difficult to create a kdemultimedia-compat we should have a try [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:21:02] imho [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:21:07] Kevin_Kofler: we should make sure that arts and phonon should work at the same time [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:21:34] Of course, we have to test this, and if it doesn't work, fix it. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:21:45] otherwise it doesn't make sense to have kdemultimedia3/arts stuff [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:22:49] I believe it won't be a problem thanks to PulseAudio. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:23:06] Ideally we'd have Phonon-GStreamer because that works more reliably with PA than xine-lib. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:23:28] But I think it should work even with xine-lib. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:23:44] Kevin_Kofler: is kdemultimedia3 already imported in CVS? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:23:53] The problem with small notifications not playing correctly is not PA-related, it's a xine-lib bug and should be fixed (by the Phonon author) in the next version of xine-lib. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:24:03] than: No, there hasn't been a review request or anything yet. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:24:58] Kevin_Kofler: do you have url ? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:25:34] No, we don't even have a specfile yet. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:25:44] We all hoped we wouldn't need a kdemultimedia3. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:25:49] But it seems we were wrong. :-( [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:26:48] Betreten JSchmitt hat den Kanal betreten (n=s4504kr@p54B11180.dip0.t-ipconnect.de). [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:27:36] So, who's going to take up the task of creating a kdemultimedia3? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:27:36] Kevin_Kofler: if there's only taxipilot, we don't need kdemultimedia3 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:28:15] What do we do then? Drop taxipilot from the distribution? (The maintainer won't be happy about that.) Patch taxipilot to remove sounds support? (Ugh...) Any other ideas? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:28:53] There's not one line written for a KDE 4 port of taxipilot, so we can't expect miracles on that front. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:30:19] it's not a good idea to ship old arts/kdemultimedia stuff (which will be unmaintained soon) because only taxiplot [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:31:23] I can try to come up with a patch to remove all sound support from taxipilot (removing the aRts deps), but I'm not sure the maintainer (Hans de Goede) will like that solution. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:31:32] But as a short-term fix, it should be enough. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:31:56] taxipilot is a kde apps, isn't it? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:32:14] Betreten ltinkl hat den Kanal betreten (n=lukas@194.212.22.14). [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:32:16] It's a game using KDE 3, yes. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:33:08] For ltinkl who just joined: We're talking about this problem: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=410851 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:33:08] Basically we have a KDE 3 based game which wants to use aRts-related libs from kdemultimedia3. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:33:09] Bug 410851: low, low, ---, Hans de Goede, ASSIGNED , taxipilot: drop BR: kdemultimedia3-devel [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:33:27] And we only have kdemultimedia 4 in Rawhide. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:33:35] my personal opinion, it doesn't hurt, if this games is dropped [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:33:51] drop it imo, or ask author to port to phonon [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:34:14] yes or aksk author to port to phonon [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:34:27] This isn't likely to happen, the author says he has no time for a KDE 4 port. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:34:33] And there's not a single KDE 4 line written. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:34:48] unmaintained app, drop [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:34:55] ltinkl: +1 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:35:28] I think I'll try to patch it to remove sound support entirely, then it won't need aRts/kdemultimedia3. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:35:41] Then it will be up to the maintainer whether he wants to apply the patch or drop it entirely. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:35:51] or that kevin, try to make it compile/work without arts [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:35:52] i play it without sound anyways [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:35:57] i won't miss it [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:36:26] OK, next subject. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:36:27] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Fedora KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-18 - API documentation". [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:36:39] We're currently not packaging any API documentation for KDE 4. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:36:59] At least kdelibs, kdepimlibs, soprano have API docs, probably other stuff which has libraries has them too. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:37:25] I think shipping that depends on size constraints; one can always build the docs from the SRPM or view it online [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:37:40] Kevin_Kofler: API documentation should be included [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:37:41] Of course they'd be in separate -apidocs subpackages. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:37:59] rdieter suggested that we build them from separate SRPMs so we can make them noarch. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:38:09] I'm not sure this is a good idea. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:38:26] I think that's what we're currently blocking on. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:38:30] Kevin_Kofler: i don't think it's a good idea [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:38:58] why not build them noarch? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:39:07] We can only build them noarch if they're separate SRPMs. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:39:27] RPM doesn't allow building noarch subpackages together with arch-specific ones from the same SRPM. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:39:37] ltinkl: yes, it's reason why Rex wants to make it as separate [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:39:50] Well, the kernel has ugly hacks for things like that, but I don't think that's a good example to follow either. ;-) [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:40:28] ok then making a separate SRPM seems like the way to go [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:41:01] Kevin_Kofler: separate SRPMs will take a lot of spaces! [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:41:10] But that means twice as many packages, duplicating the sources and another bunch of reviews to go through. :-( [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:41:19] hmm true [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:41:32] Too bad rdieter isn't present today, I'd like to discuss this with him. Maybe we bring this up in #fedora-kde at a time where we're all present? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:41:43] Kevin_Kofler: we should not do separate SRPMs. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:42:40] Let's build -apidocs subpackages from our existing specs then. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:42:47] Kevin_Kofler: yes [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:43:45] Next topic. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:43:47] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Fedora KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-18 - Live images for KDE4". [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:44:00] svahl: That's your topic. ;-) [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:44:26] ok :) [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:44:37] svahl: does lives image for KDE4 work again? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:44:45] I really like to share some live images before christmas [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:44:54] I think that most of the general "things that make live images blow up" bits should be fixed as of today's rawhide (... which, of course, didn't compose) [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:45:01] yes. they're working with enforcing=0 again (since yesterdays rawhide push) [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:45:24] enforcing might even work with today... but I haven't tried quite yet [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:45:59] I've created a tracker bug with SHOULD and MUST items: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=421891 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:46:25] jeremy: thx. I'll try to grab at least the selinux packages and try it at my own [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:46:26] jeremy: So the SELinux issues were due to the live CD compose and not KDE 4 itself? [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:46:48] Kevin_Kofler: selinux + dbus has been ... unhappy for the better part of a week [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:46:55] Kevin_Kofler: I've seen both following bugs also in my normal installation [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:47:07] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=421951 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:47:16] Bug 421951: low, high, ---, Ngo Than, NEW , Selinux is preventing kdm to login a user [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:47:16] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=422061 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:47:18] Bug 422061: urgent, urgent, ---, Ngo Than, NEW , KDE4 applications aren't starting at all [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:47:22] svahl: I'll also try to build a kde4 image this afternoon [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:47:38] this is my current (working) version.http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList#preview [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:48:27] jeremy: thx. my git config of livecd-fedora-kde.ks is still the actual one [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:48:45] svahl: k [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:48:53] I'm removing firefox manually atm to get under 700 megs: [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:49:51] so far it's quite usuable. I've noticed no app really crashing. sound works [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:51:04] in comparison to the kde3 live images i've dropped krusader, koffice-krita, twinkle and ktorrent [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:51:47] a big issue atm is that the installer is not yet working [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:52:04] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=424811 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:52:05] Bug 424811: high, medium, ---, Lubomir Kundrak, NEW , liveinst stops with: No module named firstboot_module_window [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:52:16] svahl: I have a hack to work around that in my config right now [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:52:30] great, thx! [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:53:06] that's all for now. your turn :) [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:53:23] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Fedora KDE SIG Meeting - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-12-18 - development progress: the road to kde4". [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:53:55] kdeadmin, kaider and extragear-plasma are in now, kde-l10n is still being reviewed. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:54:04] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=421231 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:54:05] Bug 421231: medium, medium, ---, Rex Dieter, ASSIGNED , Review Request: kde-l10n - Internationalization support for KDE [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:54:48] Then there's also my port of the bluecurve-kwin-theme: [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:54:50] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=425872 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:54:51] Bug 425872: medium, medium, ---, Nobody's working on this, feel free to take it, NEW , Review Request: kde4-decoration-native-quarticurve-kwin - Unofficial port of the Bluecurve KWin decoration to KDE 4 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:55:13] Kevin_Kofler: it would be great if it's ready before christmas [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:55:39] And finally, we've split out a kdelibs-common from kdelibs so kdelibs3 can reuse /usr/share/doc/HTML/en/common. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:55:46] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=417251 [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:55:47] Bug 417251: medium, medium, ---, Kevin Kofler, CLOSED RAWHIDE, [RFE] Please support the directory /usr/share/doc/HTML/en/common [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:56:09] My first version of the split was screwed up because I put kunittestmodrunner into kdelibs-common and that dragged in kdelibs. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:56:21] Also there was checkXML in kdelibs-common which doesn't work without meinproc4 in kdelibs. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:56:29] So I've removed these from kdelibs-common. [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:58:59] We're running out of time, so if there's anything else to add, please say it now, otherwise I'll close the meeting. :-) [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:59:37] we should figure out why systemsettings isn't in the kde4 menu [Di Dez 18 2007] [17:59:46] I'll open a bug for that later [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:00:00] svahl: yes please open a bug for that [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:00:00] svahl: yes pls [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:00:07] +1 [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:00:13] OK, anything else? [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:00:17] another thing [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:00:42] is the still-open Flash plugin bug [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:01:31] Is it still not working with the patches? [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:01:32] there are fixed packages (kdelibs and kdebase) ready for testing but it seems the fix is not ready yet as it doesnt quite work on 64bit systems [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:01:51] I think that's nspluginwrapper's problem though, not ours. [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:02:06] I think so too, it's where it crashes at least [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:02:13] (Darn proprietary software not frigging having a darn 64-bit version available.) [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:02:28] +100 [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:02:30] :) [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:02:38] So I think we should just care about our problems and a separate bug report against nspluginwrapper is needed. [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:02:41] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=410651 [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:02:41] Bug 410651: medium, medium, ---, Lukas Tinkl, ASSIGNED , New flash plugin not working for konqueror [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:04:19] We're 5 minutes over time now, so I'm closing the meeting here. [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:04:21] shouldn't konq have /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins-wrapped in its plugin search path out of the box, BTW [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:04:21] Topic Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See ttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule". [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:04:26] ltinkl: we won't push kdelibs/kdebase from testing in final before it's really fixed for 64bit platform [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:04:40] ...as well as /usr/lib64/mozilla/plugins, /usr/lib64/mozilla/plugins-wrapped on lib64 archs [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:05:12] scop: yes as I just found out, pls file a bug report and assign it to me (ltinkl@redhat.com) [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:05:18] than: But if it isn't even our bug? [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:05:31] This probably has to be fixed in nspluginwrapper. [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:05:37] ltinkl, ok, will do [Di Dez 18 2007] [18:07:18] Kevin_Kofler: we should make sure it's really bug in nspluginwrappe before moving it in final