**** BEGINNE LOGBUCH UM Wed May 7 17:00:59 2008 Mai 07 17:01:30 * dwight1 (n=dwight@supercomputer.org) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:02:01 Greetings Mai 07 17:02:07 Hello. Mai 07 17:02:28 Thanks for setting this up. Mai 07 17:03:35 At least half of this is owed to Jef for poking me. Mai 07 17:03:43 * tnorth (n=tnorth@pub1.heig-vd.ch) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:03:53 :0 Mai 07 17:04:04 Could you give some info on yourself, especially what your particular interest is in the Robotics SIG? Mai 07 17:04:37 Sure. My main interest has and is Embedded Linux/UNIX. I'm new to robotics. Mai 07 17:05:10 I'm mostly interested in the lower-level issues. Bootstrap, kernel, etc. I'm basically a kernel person. Mai 07 17:05:29 * spybert (n=spybert@c-24-6-6-215.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:05:32 Another interest related to this is the packaging and installations. Mai 07 17:05:42 Oh, that's great. You don't have a background in firewire hacking, do you? Mai 07 17:05:56 Not firewire. Some USB. Mai 07 17:06:36 Anyway, so that's where I'm coming from. Mai 07 17:06:59 Ok, the Juju stack needs love. It's in a rather bad shape in terms of fitness for industrial firewire cameras (missing ISO bandwidth and channel allocation) Mai 07 17:07:03 * rdieter (n=rdieter@ip68-110-20-4.om.om.cox.net) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:07:11 * che (n=rkastl@redhat/che) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:07:12 Good to know. Mai 07 17:07:27 if this is a perma channel some suggestions Mai 07 17:07:32 put the sig url in topic please Mai 07 17:07:43 and maybe make chanserv join the chan ;) Mai 07 17:07:52 Ok, I guess most know the posts from Fedora Planet. Anyway, my particular interest are mobile robots equipped with a laptop-grade computer running Fedora on the robot. Mai 07 17:08:30 che: this is kinda preliminary for the moment. Need to read on how to poke ChanServ... Mai 07 17:08:41 * slimshady123 (n=chatzill@121.245.46.200) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:08:45 tim_n, i can help you later Mai 07 17:08:53 tim_n, been setting up various chans yet ;) Mai 07 17:08:57 * tim_n hat das Thema geändert zu: Initial meeting of the Fedora Robotics SIG, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Robotics Mai 07 17:09:08 che: great! Mai 07 17:09:53 Anyone else who wants to introduce briefly and state the particular interests and background in robotics? Mai 07 17:09:54 * racor (n=rc040203@HSI-KBW-082-212-056-027.hsi.kabelbw.de) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:10:29 well personally i am more interested in the software side of it Mai 07 17:10:50 no clue about robotics hw really Mai 07 17:11:02 but i guess it is an interesting topic Mai 07 17:12:25 Software is at least half of robotics anyway. And since two simulators are already on the lists of proposed packages that seems particularly like a good fit! Mai 07 17:12:46 * slimshady123 hat die Verbindung getrennt (Remote closed the connection) Mai 07 17:13:12 * spoleeba (n=one@fedora/Jef) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:13:26 sorry i'm late 7:10 am here Mai 07 17:14:06 Hi Jef. Oh, I thought I got a good time for most. Ok, later next time :-) Mai 07 17:14:49 * makghosh (n=Joy@117.201.97.24) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:14:52 Any word on when the mailling list will be set up? Mai 07 17:15:19 hi all Mai 07 17:15:19 I sent an email to mailman@redhat today requesting the list. I don't know if that's the correct procedure but I didn't get an answer yet. Mai 07 17:15:26 Hi Arindam. Mai 07 17:15:54 Cool. They might be kind of busy with F9. Mai 07 17:16:28 Could be. We'll see. Mai 07 17:17:06 I'd like to start with discussing the proposed packages, and see if there are other proposals that are not yet on the list. Mai 07 17:17:24 tim_n: cool :) Mai 07 17:18:09 The one on top of my list would be player/stage/gazebo proposed by makghosh. It is pretty well known and widely used (and we use it internally as our simulator). Mai 07 17:18:37 tim_n: yeah...they are widely used too Mai 07 17:18:56 One thing that has to be figured out is how to extend Gazebo with new models. I know that the guy who did it here patched the gazebo source with the models. Mai 07 17:19:13 We have to find out if there is a way for easy integration of new models and stuff when the package is installed. Mai 07 17:19:34 tim_n, yeah..being able to drop in new models as a addon package would be keen Mai 07 17:19:40 If gazebo has to be patched every time anyway then there is not much of a benefit in packaging it. Someone here who had a deeper look? Mai 07 17:19:43 tim_n, is gazebo active upstream? Mai 07 17:19:58 * rdieter hat die Verbindung getrennt (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Mai 07 17:20:29 Jepp, player (which I from now on state as the player/stage/gazebo conglomerate) has a very active upstream. Mai 07 17:21:00 tim_n, the intern looks like is going to happen.... so unbreaking gazebo's ability to take in a model might be a good job for a dedicated intern Mai 07 17:21:58 spoleeba, that's a pretty good idea! The first thing to do would be to dig into gazebo and find out if that has changed lately. Our last integration was over a year back with an older version that has been integrated once and not been updated lately Mai 07 17:22:49 * ChanServ setzt Modus -s #fedora-robotics Mai 07 17:22:49 * ChanServ setzt Modus +c #fedora-robotics Mai 07 17:22:49 * ChanServ setzt Modus +n #fedora-robotics Mai 07 17:22:49 * ChanServ setzt Modus +t #fedora-robotics Mai 07 17:23:47 Having a working simulator so that you can actually show robotics with Fedora is probably a pretty good first step anyway. Mai 07 17:23:52 in other news.... the First Robotics mid level competition called the Tech Challenge has changed from the Vex robot platform to using a Lego Mindstorms NXT platform with an addon kit from HiTechnic Mai 07 17:24:14 im going to taking a look at the new platform next week Mai 07 17:24:45 I had a brief look at the Lego website. I couldn't find downloads. Is the software open source? Mai 07 17:25:02 tim_n, google NXC Mai 07 17:25:21 tim_n, there is an open compiler using the NXC language... mozilla licensed Mai 07 17:25:41 tim_n, the official lego stuff..is labview based...not open...but the hardware specs are completely open Mai 07 17:25:51 Ah, I see. I stopped looking after the stock quote last time and went directly to the Lego website Mai 07 17:26:22 tim_n, the addon kit isnt publicly available yet...a few beta testers got them...a teacher at a high school here got one..and competed in April with the new platform in a demo competition Mai 07 17:26:57 spoleeba, so the task would be to have a look at NXC, evaluate and eventually package it? Mai 07 17:26:58 tim_n, the new 'kit' is all I2C communication based Mai 07 17:27:04 tim_n, it needs to be packaged yes Mai 07 17:27:08 tim_n, its already packagable Mai 07 17:27:20 tim_n: btw pyrobot guys maintains a repository which has player/stage/gazebo etc which they include in their livecd...so we can have a peek at it as it will help us Mai 07 17:27:25 spoleeba: ^^ Mai 07 17:27:36 http://pyrorobotics.org/?page=PyroInstallation Mai 07 17:27:50 tim_n, the hard part..is going to be putting a real devel environment together aimed at the new kit platform..i expect a lot of HS to invest the 1 thousand to get the kit over the next year or two Mai 07 17:27:53 Jep, pyrobotics is another point on the list. Mai 07 17:28:23 tim_n, if you didnt have something big to throw the intern at..i was going to throw him at the new NXT kit platform Mai 07 17:29:09 tim_n, and describing the LEGO/Hitechnic kit in the simulators..would be..interesting as well Mai 07 17:29:37 spoleeba, I think you have to summarize it for me a bit: the addon kit is some extra hardware for the mindstorm robots? Then NXC is an open source compiler and firmware for this addon? Would it work without this addon? Mai 07 17:32:53 tim_n, yes the addon kit...is basically a box of parts and sensors Mai 07 17:33:18 tim_n, the nxc stuff is an open source compiler/language that works with the lego nxt microcontrollers generally Mai 07 17:33:30 spoleeba, ok. So basically what has to happen first would be to package nbc/nxt. You should put that on the wiki page. Mai 07 17:33:43 tim_n, the nxc stuff is useful right now... but i doubt it has pre-cooked high level functions for the new kit Mai 07 17:34:54 spoleeba, ok, we should see if we can find a packager. Mai 07 17:35:04 * ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 07 17:35:04 * irc.freenode.net gibt Op-Status an ChanServ Mai 07 17:35:29 tim_n, i have to ping greg about that intern Mai 07 17:36:03 tim_n, im personally hoping to get the intern on the front line of the lego stuff..because the competition it targets is aimed at HS students....s\ Mai 07 17:36:04 spoleeba, Ok. Sounds like an easy task. Should still be plenty of time left to deal with gazebo :-) Mai 07 17:36:34 tim_n, i want to be able to use this kid as the ambassador for open robotics to his peer group Mai 07 17:36:46 spoleeba, Sounds pretty good. Mai 07 17:36:54 Ok, I think we should get the others involved again. Mai 07 17:38:02 makghosh, would you interested in having a look at player to see what has to happen to make it a useful package? I think it would be reasonable to start right away with the upcoming version 2.1 (rc1 is out) Mai 07 17:38:18 tim_n: yeah...sure Mai 07 17:38:44 i can lookup at player Mai 07 17:38:51 brb..got a call Mai 07 17:39:02 i can do the review once its ready for submission Mai 07 17:39:31 Is anybody else in the room interested in a particular package and would like to give a look. It doesn't have to be completely packaged right from the beginning, many things will first need to be looked at and investigated if they can be packaged in a good way. Mai 07 17:39:44 Checking if they have an alive upstream and are vivid is another important task. Mai 07 17:39:49 i really keen on getting this simulation stuff in...i think we can get some good PR out of it..if we held open simulation-based competitions even if they aren't a big deal Mai 07 17:39:59 back Mai 07 17:40:40 Another thing that is not yet put on the list but that we could look at are the simulators used in the RoboCup simulation leagues. Mai 07 17:40:51 heh. that would be cool, spoleeba. Mai 07 17:41:32 http://sserver.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Mai 07 17:42:10 spoleeba: yeah..simulation stuff will really make this great Mai 07 17:42:10 spoleeba, perfectly true. A Fedora simulated robot competition... Mai 07 17:42:41 I think that makes gazebo even more interesting. Mai 07 17:43:09 tim_n, you'd know more about what's actual possible.. if we can do a sim competition..but we could maybe mix in real robots in the final rounds Mai 07 17:43:32 tim_n: that's the point....hope it remains upstream Mai 07 17:44:04 makghosh, what should remain upstream? Mai 07 17:44:40 makghosh, i want to hook in the mindstorms into the simulators...so we can have really inexpensive robot competition :-> Mai 07 17:44:41 spoleeba, mixing in robots would be cool, but then you need good simulation models of these robots. We have learned that with current simulators it takes some effort to go from a simulation to the real robot. Mai 07 17:45:01 tim_n, sure...a valuable learning experience Mai 07 17:45:11 tim_n, and fun..when a robot keels over and explodes Mai 07 17:45:12 tim_n: gazebo...it is updated for sure...but i don't like MARIE not be updated as frequently :( Mai 07 17:46:00 makghosh, gazebo is quite popular and they get funding (http://playerstage.sourceforge.net/index.php?src=funders) which is a good thing. Mai 07 17:46:25 * che hat die Verbindung getrennt ("Verlassend") Mai 07 17:46:27 makghosh, so I think it'll be vivid for at least an interesting time frame. Mai 07 17:46:52 spoleeba: y0!! that will be great Mai 07 17:47:31 i think if we get this stuff into a distro...and we start talking to upstream..we might find that the visibility could re-inspire an more frequent updates Mai 07 17:47:38 tim_n: yeah...thank god...bcoz i'm feeling it's gonna be a reasonable front runner Mai 07 17:49:19 makghosh, I had a look at MARIE lately (have to compare the framework I wrote with others for my thesis). It mentions robotflow though which is deadish for years :-/ Mai 07 17:49:42 We would have to check on how tied it is to robotflow or if it is just one supported framework that we could leave out. Mai 07 17:50:40 tim_n: hmmm...in that case we need to see if player can take the place of robotflow Mai 07 17:50:55 It's at least in the list of supported frameworks Mai 07 17:51:25 MARIE's last update of the status page was in 2006 Mai 07 17:52:14 makghosh, ok, I think after we have gazebo we should give MARIE a closer look to see what it can do and if it has an alive upstream Mai 07 17:53:09 CARMEN is another very interesting packages. I is basically *the* standard package if it comes to laser based localization of robots. We had used it a while back for mapping. I think there are still many teams using it. And it can later be integrated into MARIE as it seems. Mai 07 17:53:19 tim_n: np, it should be included iff its' workable Mai 07 17:53:25 i mean marie Mai 07 17:53:30 makghosh, true Mai 07 17:54:00 CARMEN has a vivid upstream and bright people who worked/work on it. Mai 07 17:54:16 oh is anyone logging this? Mai 07 17:54:51 we should probably post the logs of the official meetings Mai 07 17:55:05 spoleeba: i am....but i missed the parts before i came Mai 07 17:55:12 tim_n: ? Mai 07 17:55:28 I'm logging Mai 07 17:55:35 cool Mai 07 17:57:22 I'll have a look at CARMEN as this is something that I can test here with our robot. Mai 07 17:57:52 Ok, so far we discussed nxt/nbc, player/stage/gazebo, MARIE and CARMEN. Short log: Mai 07 17:58:06 nxt/nbc: Jef's going to have his intern look at packaging it Mai 07 17:59:05 player/stage/gazebo: Arindam will have a look (we probably need to find out if all deps are met in Fedora), Jef's intern will have a look how external models can be integrated and if shipped models can be factored out to subpackages. Mai 07 17:59:32 MARIE: postponed, we will have a look if player/stage/gazebo (and possibly CARMEN) are packaged Mai 07 18:00:04 CARMEN: I'm going to check deps and eventually will package it. Nobody else currently has the platform to do it otherwise. Mai 07 18:00:33 RobotFlow: it's out, upstream deadish for years Mai 07 18:01:07 tim_n, well if someone decided to be a new upstream for it..... Mai 07 18:02:13 spoleeba, hehe, of course. I don't have the time, and I'm not interested anyway. I'm currently finalizing our own framework that I worked on for the last year and a half. We are planning for a release in summer or fall... Mai 07 18:02:39 tim_n, you might want to make a section of the wiki page for project which could be reborn. If I do my job right and i find more people interested specifically in open robotics..we could make a space for forks of dead codebases at fedora hosted Mai 07 18:03:17 i start of with player first for sure....after that i will take care of stage/gazebo...for these two if get too busy for my GSoC thingy will tell you guys Mai 07 18:04:38 spoleeba, sounds like a plan. Though I'd prefer if people would first make sure that what still has an active upstream will be packaged in a useful way. Again I'm thinking about the gazebo models which we have to figure out if it still needs work. Especially for robotics it's not just a software that you start hacking on, but you need a platform to do testing on. That's the big difference to the "usual" software we have. Mai 07 18:06:00 tim_n, of course....i just dont want to lose track of high specialized things we might have the man power to dust off in a year Mai 07 18:06:32 spoleeba, another thing that would be good to have people working on would be a demo szenario for player/stage/gazebo. If we could have a package or even a LiveCD with an icon on the desktop like "start simulation" and then you have a robot driving around on your screen that you can influence and give commands to, that'd be awesome! Mai 07 18:07:00 tim_n, yes indeed Mai 07 18:07:02 Yes, that would be cool. Mai 07 18:07:05 tim_n: whoa!! Mai 07 18:07:29 tim_n, i definitely want a livecd out of this sig at some point... but first we need packages Mai 07 18:07:41 spoleeba, agreed Mai 07 18:07:49 tim_n, if we get player and friends in quickly...then we get to that point faster Mai 07 18:07:58 I'd be interested in working on the livecd part. Mai 07 18:08:06 spoleeba: Fedora Robotics Lab (FRL) Mai 07 18:08:10 dwight1, we need packages first :-> Mai 07 18:08:20 A minor detail indeed. Mai 07 18:08:25 ;0 Mai 07 18:08:40 I think it's now clear that player/stage/gazebo gets highest priority for the beginning. Mai 07 18:09:30 I'll put the RoboCup simulators on the proposed list. I hope to find someone to do it. This thing is a pain to set it up but if you could just yum install it people could just start coding... Mai 07 18:09:43 tim_n: yeah...i feel carmen also lies at a prority for it's cartographic capabilities :) Mai 07 18:10:15 makghosh, jep. Especially since it has a good reputation in the science arena. Pretty prominent guys worked on this one. Mai 07 18:10:49 makghosh, you put simbad on the list. Do you have specific affiliations with this one or did it just come up during your research? Mai 07 18:11:15 tim_n: nothing of that sort...just came up Mai 07 18:11:36 makghosh, did you say..cartographic? Mai 07 18:12:06 spoleeba, yes! CARMEN is a mapping and localization tool. Mai 07 18:12:34 You take maps of the environment with a laser scanner, process the data and then the robot can use this data to localize it so that it knows where it is in the environment. Mai 07 18:13:02 cartographic is probably not the right word, it's not a GIS or something. Mai 07 18:13:37 tim_n, ah.. you got me excited... tying any robotics effort with GIS would have a huge interest payoff Mai 07 18:13:38 spoleeba: i meant its' particularly useful for nav robos...agreed cartographic is not the right term Mai 07 18:13:48 makghosh, ok, then I'd say we postpone simbad as well until we got the first packages done. Or is there anybody else in this room who wants to get his hands dirty? :-) Mai 07 18:14:47 spoleeba, true outdoors. Mai 07 18:15:33 But that reminds me: http://paparazzi.enac.fr could be another interesting candidate for packaging. Mai 07 18:15:52 tim_n: ok...we can postpone simbad for later stages Mai 07 18:16:12 They had a pretty cool demo last year at 24C3: they were controlling two semi-autonomous UAVs in France and Germany from Berlin. Mai 07 18:16:45 tim_n, UAV control....... Mai 07 18:17:26 They provide Debian packages on their page, so I'd assume they would not be interested in packaging it by themselves for Fedora. But it'd be definitely cool, though I couldn't test it myself. Mai 07 18:17:34 They also have a LiveCD Mai 07 18:18:34 tim_n, ive got a high school teacher who dabbles Mai 07 18:18:48 tim_n, specifically in UAV stuff Mai 07 18:19:32 * tnorth hat die Verbindung getrennt ("Quitte") Mai 07 18:20:07 spoleeba, sounds like a good fit! If you could get him (and maybe his team) interested... Mai 07 18:20:27 tim_n, im working on it... Mai 07 18:20:57 tim_n, open uav stuff might be the things that gets him really excited Mai 07 18:21:18 spoleeba: it'll be helpful for us too :) Mai 07 18:22:04 makghosh, for the SIG or for your work? Mai 07 18:22:23 makghosh, what is your background anyway and what's your particular interest in robotics? And what's you GSoC project? :-) Mai 07 18:22:38 eh! for the SIG :) Mai 07 18:22:55 lemme give you the links first Mai 07 18:22:58 getting a fedora branded robotics oriented livecd out will help attract more people..even if the livecd only does some basic player simulation intially Mai 07 18:23:30 spoleeba, agreed Mai 07 18:23:43 we cant organize all of it in 6 months...but i want to get to the point where i can attract more people Mai 07 18:24:21 tim_n: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/GSoC_Applications_2008#Internationalization_setup_for_OSM_web_pages_and_map_tiles_Arindam_Ghosh Mai 07 18:24:27 the sims and the lego stuff are the highest impact..lowest upfront cost things people can do on their own Mai 07 18:24:42 I think if we get psg (from now on short for player/stage/gazebo) packaged there are demo scenarios I think in gazebo which should allow for a short demo easily. Problem again: having 3D drivers... Mai 07 18:24:57 tim_n: see i'm actually a Computer Science having a fad for robotics Mai 07 18:25:47 makghosh, interesting, which university? Mai 07 18:26:14 practically i'm thinkin of robotics just because of nav robos which can be integrated with openstreetmap of automatic mapping Mai 07 18:26:23 that's just a wholesome idea Mai 07 18:26:39 and also the need of the hour Mai 07 18:27:25 tim_n: West Bengal University of Technology, India Mai 07 18:27:31 tim_n, did we finish with the official meeting? I sort of need to go Mai 07 18:27:50 spoleeba, I think yes. Tasks for everybody are clear I think? Mai 07 18:28:04 tim_n, try to get the log up on the wiki. Mai 07 18:28:06 spoleeba: nxt/nbc Mai 07 18:28:15 makghosh, psg Mai 07 18:28:20 tim_n: CARMEN Mai 07 18:28:47 You get your intern interested in psg, makghosh, as soon as you've got something let me know and I'll give it a try. Mai 07 18:28:59 spoleeba, I'll put it up. Mai 07 18:29:14 tim_n: ok Mai 07 18:29:14 dwight1: will help when time comes for the LiveCD Mai 07 18:29:53 spoleeba, just create a meeting wiki page and copy or better attach log as .txt? Mai 07 18:31:13 tim_n, do like fesco does it http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Meetings Mai 07 18:31:59 spoleeba, ok, I'll do Mai 07 18:32:07 Should we schedule our next meeting? Mai 07 18:32:34 tim_n, push it an hour back if possible Mai 07 18:32:38 What about in two weeks? What would be a good time for you? I think we have quite a range from Alaska to India and Europe in the middle... Mai 07 18:33:14 tim_n, two weeks should be fine.. ill know if the intern exists by then i think Mai 07 18:33:15 he he :) Mai 07 18:33:28 makghosh, would 16:00 UTC be ok with you? Mai 07 18:34:13 tim_n: ok...21:30 IST...cool Mai 07 18:34:37 makghosh, so you are UTC+5:30 ? Mai 07 18:34:47 yeah Mai 07 18:34:56 well yours? Mai 07 18:35:02 tim_n: Mai 07 18:35:38 Ok, can't remember that one. Have been in India in 2005 for a three week trip from Dehli, via Agra, via Varanasi, via Darjeeling up the Himalaya in Sikkim from Yuksom to Dzongri :_) Mai 07 18:35:46 Here is UTC+2:00 Mai 07 18:35:52 (summer time) Mai 07 18:35:57 It's GMT+1 Mai 07 18:36:54 Oh wait, GMT is also without DST I just saw... Then it's GMT+2 as well... Mai 07 18:37:31 Keep watching the wiki. I'll put the mailing list link there as soon as it has been created. Mai 07 18:38:35 If there is anything to discuss just drop me an email, you should be able to find out my email address if I tell you that my FAS account is timn ;-) Mai 07 18:40:29 tim_n: ok..sure...and it sounds great that you have been in India... :) Mai 07 18:40:52 Ok, I gotta go, the dog needs a walk... Thanks to you all for being here discussing and getting started with the Fedora Robotics SIG! Mai 07 18:41:40 tim_n: well and forgive me for the *typos* i made while describing "me" :P someone was badly pinging me on pm whom i don't know Mai 07 18:41:44 I'll announce our next meeting for Wed, May 21 2008 at 16:00 UTC Mai 07 18:42:09 tim_n: y0! Mai 07 18:42:35 See you guys Mai 07 18:43:05 * tim_n hat das Thema geändert zu: Fedora Robotics SIG, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Robotics Mai 07 18:43:53 Python interface unloaded **** BEENDE LOGBUCH UM Wed May 7 18:43:53 2008