[11:02] KDE SIG meeting start, who's present today? [11:02] me [11:02] here [11:02] Me too. :-) [11:02] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- Init". [11:04] ping: than, ltinkl, jreznik [11:04] present [11:04] svahl mailed, won't attend today [11:04] well, let's get started on the agenda [11:04] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- kde 4.1.2 status". [11:05] I'm here with a small request [11:05] orionp: yes? [11:05] Basically just help testing kdesvn 1.2.0 for KDE4 in rawhide [11:05] orionp, anything specific? [11:06] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- testing kdesvn 1.2.0 (for KDE4) in rawhide". [11:06] orionp, or just give it a general try? [11:06] Just give it a try, maybe protocol integration? [11:07] I'm a KDE4 nood [11:07] ok, can do [11:07] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- kde 4.1.2". [11:07] Thanks [11:07] next topic: kde-4.1.2 status [11:07] all imported/built for F-9/F-10. [11:07] than: looks like you're hunting down stray icons? [11:08] yes, i'm working on this [11:08] Kevin_Kofler was kind enough to fix cdparanoia/kdemultimedia builds for F-10 earlier today [11:09] than: let me know when things settle down, and we can prepare a bodhi update. [11:09] anything else that needswork kde-4.1.2-wise? [11:09] systemseetings looks fine now, i don't see any missing icons there [11:10] than: missing icons in general (oxygen) or with echo ? [11:10] than, is this in rawhide? [11:10] I think we want the Fedora-KDE icon theme changes from the F10 kde-settings also in the F9 one. [11:10] in oxygen [11:10] oxygen is ok [11:10] but echo is missing many icons [11:10] By the way, shouldn't we bump the kde-settings version in Rawhide (to 4.1)? [11:10] ah, ok.. thought we were talking abotu echo [11:10] Right now we have overlapping versions with different tarballs. [11:10] Kevin_Kofler: yes, bump version [11:11] Kevin_Kofler: +1 [11:11] [Notify] thiago went offline (irc.freenode.org). [11:11] Kevin_Kofler: which Fedora-KDE icon changes for F-9 are you talking about? [11:11] OK, I'll handle kde-settings (bumping versions properly and updating the F9 one). [11:11] switching to echo? or something else? [11:12] * Tue Sep 16 2008 Than Ngo 4.0-27 [11:12] - remove unneeded symlinks in Fedora-KDE icon theme [11:12] * Tue Sep 16 2008 Than Ngo 4.0-26 [11:12] - fix, systemsettings->icons doesn't show icons by Fedora-KDE [11:12] icon theme [11:12] Echo is currently disabled even in the Rawhide version. [11:12] ok, agreed. [11:13] can echo fall down to oxygen when icon is missing? [11:13] Yes, but with one caveat. [11:13] KDE 4 will prefer more generic fallbacks from the same theme before considering fallback to an inherited theme. [11:13] a generic echo icon, is prefered to an exact fallback [11:14] So if foo-bar-baz is not available, it will try foo-bar and even foo first, only then it will consider another theme. [11:14] And some stuff relies on this behavior, like the start-here vs. start-here-kde stuff. [11:14] It's also part of the fd.o icon naming spec, but nobody implemented it before KDE 4. [11:15] Not even GNOME, which claims to be conforming to it. (I think they still haven't changed it and might never actually change it.) [11:16] anything else to discuss for 4.1.2? move on? [11:16] Kevin_Kofler: imo it should fall back to inherited theme first [11:16] I still have an issue to fix for that in Bluecurve, where KMix gets a generic sound icon instead of the expected loudspeaker. I haven't had the time to fix this because I worked on more important stuff. [11:16] as it did in 3.5.x [11:16] shrug, let's talk icons, echo [11:16] than: Well, take this up with upstream and fd.o. [11:17] I don't think we want to deviate from upstream there, especially with code known to rely on the current behavior. :-( [11:17] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- echo/icons". [11:17] It's a no-win situation really. [11:17] rdieter, Echo was missing enough icons to make things confusing [11:17] echo might work well with gnome, but it looks really bad in kde =( [11:17] * rdieter likes echo, but agrees about lots missing [11:17] The spec is even well-intentioned, it says they do this in the name of look consistency. [11:18] see also: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=16de708d0809292221j54d041f8w9d85b127d2bc6552%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=kde-redhat-users [11:18] Unfortunately, this loses precision, which is often more important. [11:18] eg. In Amarok, I had to make guesses at buttons for thing slike play, pause, etc [11:18] pembo13: amarok1 or amarok2 ? [11:18] Echo doesn't even try to support KDE 3. [11:18] Kevin_Kofler: consistency even with gnome is bad... perspective is wrong... [11:18] kde3 apps are worse off [11:18] rdieter, amarok1 (don't think I have 2) [11:18] will look for amarok2 and try [11:19] * rdieter goes to refill coffee, brb [11:19] Kevin_Kofler: i will take a look at icons spec first [11:20] Wiki page about KDE&Echo, it's nice to have stuff on one place: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Branding/Echo [11:20] http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html [11:20] jreznik: good idea [11:21] "However, if the more specific item does not exist in the current theme, and does exist in a parent theme, the generic icon from the current theme is preferred, in order to keep consistent style." [11:21] we have to switch to oxygen back if the artwork team cannot provide the missing icons [11:21] in case of echo we cave consistent breakage [11:21] We never actually switched to Echo in Rawhide. [11:22] Just in kde-settings trunk and I reverted that for now. [11:22] i'll update teh wiki once i reactivate my account [11:22] Kevin_Kofler: ok [11:23] So, move on? We have lots of other stuff to discuss. [11:23] oh, ok, I think we'll just have to give up on any chance of using echo for F-10, there simply isn't enough time left for enough test/fix iterations. [11:23] move on... [11:23] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- mysql-embedded for amarok2, bug #149829". [11:24] We really need to talk to the mysql maintainers, quick. [11:24] mostly an fyi, the next beta of amarok2 will need/use mysql embedded, which we don't have in fedora, yet. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=149829 [11:24] Bug 149829: medium, medium, ---, tgl@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, RFE: build MySQL with embedded server [11:24] sadly, a very old rfe. [11:24] There seems to be some upstream brokenness like relying on a copy (!) of libgcc.a. [11:25] I'll take a look at building --with-embedded-server, and see how it goes. [11:25] This should probably be patched/sanitized. [11:25] Or at the very least, use a symlink. [11:25] But I think it should be patched to use -shared-libgcc. [11:25] hopefully the mygcc hackage is no longer there [11:25] Then the problem will just go away. [11:25] the comment about it was from 2005 [11:26] Let's hope for the best. [11:26] Hopefully we won't have lots of red tape blocking us. [11:26] Sometimes getting maintainers @RH to do things isn't easy. :-( [11:26] worst case, we revert to amarok1 (even though upstream mostly acknowledges it as unsupported) [11:27] is the code mysql embedded already included in mysql? [11:27] Could we ship a separate mysql-embedded SRPM and RPM? [11:27] than: code there, just not enabled/built [11:27] Because we could rush that through review and bypass the MySQL maintainers entirely. [11:27] Kevin_Kofler: yeah, but that would suck, mysql maintainer may not appreciate it either [11:28] it doesn'nt make sense to ship separate mysql-embedded SRPM [11:28] though, if maintainer doesn't respond... well, we'll deal with that too. [11:28] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- /topic KDE SIG Meeting -- libkipi framework: kdegraphics, Digikam in F10". [11:29] next topic: libkipi framework: kdegraphics, Digikam in F10 [11:29] So the situation there is a bit complex: [11:29] looks like kdegraphics-4.1.2 will be respun with some abi-breakage reverted, I'll have to found out how the upstream digikam devs are going to deal with that [11:30] Actually, it has been respun, but they didn't really revert anything beyond 4.1.2. [11:30] So it may get respun again. [11:30] And the libraw-based kdcraw which they wanted to do for 4.1.3 is definitely out. :-( [11:30] * rdieter thnks that's just stupid. [11:31] It's likely we will have to patch in the kipi framework from trunk (or maybe standalone tarballs) for F10. [11:31] I also think it's stupid. [11:31] pusling asked for it to be reverted. [11:31] The Debian folks are always more conservative than us Fedora folks. [11:32] strictly, pusling was right about being concerned, but I think it's something that warranted an exception. [11:32] Maybe complain loudly about the reversion on kde-release-team? [11:32] Saying they're completely breaking F10 that way etc. [11:33] Kevin_Kofler: :) [11:33] I already made a subtle comment about that already on the digikam list, I'll make another not-so-subtle one again, if things aren't sorted out asap. [11:34] Also complain to kde-release-team please. [11:34] nod [11:34] Because that's where it was decided to revert. [11:34] Kevin_Kofler: dirk müller ? [11:34] dirk was ok with the bump [11:35] He reverted on request of others. [11:35] well, I'll ping folks, if I need help or more voices, I'll certainly let everyone here know. [11:35] (And the reversion wasn't even done the way intended by those who requested it. They reverted the 4.1.2 version to the 4.1.2 version itself.) [11:35] "reverted", I should say. [11:36] The only thing they really reverted were the post-4.1.2 changes. [11:36] ie, not right. :) [11:36] And the respin didn't really change anything. [11:36] nod, I'm not going to touch anything cvs/builds until the dust settles, and I have some answers on how to move sanely forward. [11:36] Kevin_Kofler: i didn't see his announcement for kdegraphics respin [11:37] than: none was made (afaik) [11:37] It's all discussed in the kde-release-team archives only. [11:37] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- /topic KDE SIG Meeting -- kpackagekit status". [11:37] ah [11:37] lets move on [11:37] topic: kpackagekit status, SMParrish ? [11:38] kpackagekit het .1 release yesterday. working on builds now should be in koji shortly after meeting [11:38] According to the changelog, this now includes an applet and an autoupdater. [11:38] So the obvious question is: can we default to this in F10? [11:38] it should now provide the same functionality as gnome-packagekit with less overhead [11:39] So that's a "yes"? [11:39] is it stable enough to replace gnome stuff? [11:39] I would vote yes at this point [11:39] Well, testing it out is only way to find out. [11:39] Too bad it just missed the beta, that would have provided useful testing. :-( [11:39] Kevin_Kofler: nod [11:40] btw only works on rawhide. cant build for f9 until packagekit>3 hits f9 [11:40] not making any conclusions, but since this did miss the beta, we will likely have to position this for non-default use, and as a tech-preview only [11:40] rdieter: +1 [11:40] but that's just my guess/perception at this point [11:41] * rdieter will likely make a similar comment about knetworkmanger too. :) [11:41] ok with me but I do want to make it so it is installed as part of the kde desktop. dont want ppl to have to hunt for it [11:41] too much new stuff for F10 and too late [11:41] Uh, F9 switched from pirut/pup to PackageKit at the very last moment. [11:41] Why can't we do the same? [11:41] SMParrish: what happens if *both* kpackagekit and gnome-packagekit are installed? (might be a problem) [11:42] IIRC, we didn't have PackageKit at all in F9 beta. [11:42] So I don't think it's too late to make the change. [11:42] shrug, I'm ok with trying it out for now, and see how things go. any objections to adding to comps/kde-desktop default? [11:43] they can coexist but it is going to be confusing [11:43] if no objections, I'll look to update comps [11:43] different icons and both would try and keep usuers informed of updates [11:43] SMParrish: right, so using both is not really an option. [11:43] I don't think users will easily end up with both. [11:44] The live CDs will have one, and on upgrades they'll just get the upgrade to the GNOME stuff. [11:45] alrighty, I see no objections... let's move on... next topic: knetworkmanager status [11:45] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- /topic KDE SIG Meeting -- knetworkmanager status". [11:45] dgilmore? got a sec for a quick comment on knetworkmanger status? [11:45] So the thing is, if we're still not going to default to it in F10, what do we provide as the rationale in the release notes? [11:45] Last I knew, knetworkmanager kinda-sorta works, and at least builds now. [11:46] "Since knetworkmanager does not work with the version of NetworkManager available in this release" won't cut it anymore. [11:46] I'd still aruge to *not* make it default, due to it being fragile and it's immature gui [11:46] So should I put something like the following in the release notes? [11:47] sounds good [11:47] shrug, I'm on the fence whether rationalizing in release notes are worth it. [11:47] * pembo13 needs to start reading release notes [11:47] but if others think it should be there, that's fine. [11:47] Fedora 10 includes a snapshot of knetworkmanager which works with the NetworkManager 0.7 prerelease in Fedora 10. As it was not judged ready for production use, the KDE Live images use nm-applet ... [11:47] if it is not mature yet we should wait for F11 [11:47] Kevin_Kofler: +1, perfect. [11:47] Kevin_Kofler: +1 [11:48] And add "knetworkmanager can be installed from the repository." [11:48] Or is that redundant? [11:48] I think it's worth mentioning that it *is* available, for those who want it [11:48] Kevin_Kofler: can be installed... [11:48] and maybe some testing note would be fine [11:49] though... Fedora 10 includes knetworkmanager... does imply already that it is available. [11:49] available, but not installed by default... maybe. [11:50] use your best judgement. :) [11:50] rdieter: sure [11:50] rdieter: iupdated rawhide last week to current svn which builds and seems to work [11:51] right now nm-applet clobbers it and it has all the useability issues still [11:51] dgilmore: what do you think of the statement: Fedora 10 includes a snapshot of knetworkmanager which works with the NetworkManager 0.7 prerelease in Fedora 10. As it was not judged ready for production use [11:51] rdieter: that sounds fine [11:52] okie dokie... [11:52] last topic: F-10/kde artwork, theme. [11:52] there really needs to be a way to say i want nm-applet or knetworkmanager [11:52] dgilmore: we've got some hacks to make installing knetworkmanger disable nm-applet, if you're interested. [11:53] but it's an all-or-nothing thing [11:53] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-30 -- /topic KDE SIG Meeting -- F-10/kde artwork, theme.". [11:53] F-10 artwork/theming. status? anyone working on that? [11:53] How does this sound? "Fedora 10 includes a snapshot of knetworkmanager which works with the prerelease of NetworkManager 0.7 in Fedora 10. As it was not judged ready for production use, the KDE Live images use nm-applet from NetworkManager-gnome instead (as in Fedora 8 and 9). The gnome-keyring-daemon facility saves passwords for these encryption technologies. knetworkmanager can, however, be installed from the repo [11:53] sitory." [11:53] splash - there is now splash for Gnome, so we have to design our own [11:54] Missing "no", right? [11:54] mistyped "w" [11:54] Kevin_Kofler: no of course [11:54] I've already asked Samuel to design mockup for us [11:54] rdieter: not intrested. id rathe have some other way to. enable it and be able to switch at will [11:54] kushal is working on KDM theme [11:55] dgilmore: ok. [11:55] dgilmore: I agree with your sentiments 100% [11:55] ok, so we need: ksplash, kdm theme, wallpaper, anything else? [11:55] plymouth will have interesting splash http://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/3/34/F10-solar-plymouth1.swf [11:56] ksplash, kdm theme, wallpaper [11:56] I can update branding wiki page [11:56] if we have sprites we can do smaller version of plymouth splash for kde [11:57] SWF? WTF? [11:57] but it doesn't display progress [11:57] Kevin_Kofler: it's only mockup :) [11:57] Why are they using non-Free formats for Fedora material? [11:57] swf spec is free afaik [11:57] no software, yes =( [11:58] It's patent-encumbered. [11:58] At least for all the sound and video stuff. [11:58] not all the video [11:58] Kevin_Kofler: we can flame later on #fedora-kde :) [11:58] now back to art [11:58] (work) [11:59] we are going out of time [11:59] jreznik: thx, when you've got the branding wiki updated, let us know [11:59] [Notify] racor is online (irc.freenode.org). [12:00] anything else wrt art/theming/branding [12:00] ? [12:00] I think KDM and KSplash is all. [12:00] Well, and dragging in the desktop backgrounds in kde-settings. [12:01] So kushal is working on the KDM theme, who's doing KSplash? [12:02] sstorari? [12:02] i mean, it needs to be drawn first [12:02] for kdm we have mockup, but not for ksplash [12:02] I'm in touch with sstorari for ksplash [12:02] Well, we could hack up the Anaconda image. [12:03] But if sstorari is designing a mockup for us, that's even better. [12:03] Kevin_Kofler: I think so... [12:03] But I'd like to wait for Samuels reply [12:03] OK. [12:03] Keep us updated. [12:03] ok [12:04] Stalwart: you are working with kushal on KDM theme? [12:04] let's wrap up, out of time, and take further discussion back to #fedora-kde. thanks all. [12:05] ok [12:05] afaik he's doing it alone now [12:05] but i will help if needed [12:05] Stalwart: thx, I can update branding wiki