**** BEGINNE LOGBUCH UM Wed May 21 20:14:24 2008 Mai 21 20:14:24 * Du sprichst jetzt in #fedora-robotics Mai 21 20:14:24 * Das Thema für #fedora-robotics ist: Fedora Robotics SIG, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Robotics Mai 21 20:14:24 * Das Thema für #fedora-robotics wurde gesetzt durch tim_n um Wed May 7 18:43:05 2008 Mai 21 20:14:41 I'm back, why is it so hard to get wifi to "just work"... Mai 21 20:16:34 Ok, let's start. Mai 21 20:16:56 makghosh: we should coordinate on how to proceed with the Player package. Mai 21 20:20:01 I have to try it anyway for work so I could do this package if you want. I'd be very happy if you would take Stage and Gazebo. CARMEN is currently somewhat postponed on my personal agenda for Player. Mai 21 20:32:04 tim_n: sure...we will have to do so Mai 21 20:32:14 * makghosh was havin dinner actually :) Mai 21 20:32:33 makghosh: what do you have to do? Mai 21 20:33:38 tim_n: if you like you can go with player... i will help you out and myself look on stage now : Mai 21 20:34:30 makghosh: k, if you want to do the Player package, that'd be fine with me. I just need it somewhat quickly and there is still plenty left to do for Stage and Gazebo. Mai 21 20:34:48 I think joining forces on this rather large project is the way we can succeed quickly, what 'ya think? Mai 21 20:35:15 tim_n: obviously yes Mai 21 20:36:15 Did you make any changes to the Player package or stuff that should be ported from your to my version? Mai 21 20:36:49 tim_n: only thing i Mai 21 20:36:52 sorry Mai 21 20:37:01 i din't finish Mai 21 20:37:37 only thing i wanted is do we really need the libtool archives or .la files Mai 21 20:38:02 the package worked pretty well without them Mai 21 20:38:07 we better not need the .la stuff Mai 21 20:38:16 avoid static if you can Mai 21 20:38:54 i think if we have to have it..it needs to be packaged as a -static subpackage...but if you dont need it... clean it out in the build process..i think thats part of the packaging guidance Mai 21 20:39:14 I agree that the .la files should go. Mai 21 20:39:41 ok Mai 21 20:39:50 The -static package can be very helpful though. Especially in robotics where you exchange work or have to copy stuff to the robot this could become helpful. Mai 21 20:40:54 k...if required at all then keep them in -static as you have done :) Mai 21 20:43:54 Hehe, good. Mai 21 20:45:01 Have you already had a look at Stage or Gazebo? Mai 21 20:45:29 let me make sure -static is allowed Mai 21 20:45:53 It is per the guidelines Mai 21 20:45:53 yep lots of examples in the repo Mai 21 20:46:25 I've created the lua-static package recently and already got flamed for it :-) Mai 21 20:46:36 tim_n, rightly so Mai 21 20:47:04 But in academia it is really useful. Just imagine that you develop on a Fedora system and then have to run something on a Debian machine in the computer pool... Mai 21 20:47:17 tim_n: i did some work Stage ...but the big problem is i don't have a F9 build now....i'll be installing F9 tommorow....and have checks with gcc 4.3 Mai 21 20:47:25 i mean mock builds etc Mai 21 20:47:28 Or if you want to send something that you developed to someone else. Mai 21 20:47:49 makghosh: sounds great. Mai 21 20:48:33 tim_n, i understand the need for statics....and it will a fascinating discussion as part of the fedora grid concept as it comes together Mai 21 20:48:33 Anyway the -static package is an option that should be kept. Mai 21 20:50:50 spoleeba: did you talk to your intern and did it get more specific what he's gonna do? Mai 21 20:51:18 tim_n, he doesn't start work until june i think Mai 21 20:51:37 tim_n, i need to ping him again Mai 21 20:52:06 ok. We should have Player, Stage and possibly Gazebo by then packaged in first versions. Integration works has to start then probably to make a nice demo... Mai 21 20:53:04 tim_n: what's the tmeline we are looking at...ASAP is it?? Mai 21 20:53:43 I'm not absolutely in a hurry. But I think having this ready will allow us to make a shiny video and attract more people. Mai 21 20:54:01 I think it's easier to get people involved if the can see that there is already something working. Mai 21 20:54:16 one month time is fine i guess i mean for all the packages we are upto now Mai 21 20:54:28 i mean whatever listed in wiki till date Mai 21 20:54:43 ah!! a video will be great you know Mai 21 20:55:29 makghosh: agreed. The idea I currently have in mind is to package Player/Stage/Gazebo and then involve dwight to get a LiveCD setup. Mai 21 20:55:42 spoleeba's intern could then work on a demo that can run off this CD. Mai 21 20:56:00 This is a small step, but the first and an important one I'd say. Mai 21 20:56:03 What do you think? Mai 21 20:56:45 its' pretty cool.... Mai 21 21:00:31 One of the task your intern would have to do is to modify PSG as needed to be able to easily extend it when installed on a system, i.e. make sure that you do not have to patch anything in PSG to extend it. Mai 21 21:02:13 Then a scenario has to be chosen that involves let's say a Pioneer robot (pretty standard robot, see http://www.activrobots.com/ROBOTS/p2dx.html). Mai 21 21:02:45 A small GUI should be written that allows simple movement of the robot, viewing the laser data and viewing "through the robot's eye". Mai 21 21:03:08 spoleeba: do you think that'd be a feasible task for your intern? Mai 21 21:03:31 tim_n, yep Mai 21 21:03:37 Cool! Mai 21 21:04:03 I'd love to be able to hand out such a LiveCD at RoboCup in China in July... :-) Mai 21 21:04:56 wow!! sounds great... Mai 21 21:04:58 tim_n, my understanding is you'd just need to make a thin gui which hooks into player/stage Mai 21 21:05:07 spoleeba: correct Mai 21 21:05:28 And the investigation on easy extensibility Mai 21 21:07:38 spoleeba: do you think I can already file a review request? It'd be a lot easier if we had the spec file etc. in CVS, so that makghosh and I can work together on the package... Mai 21 21:07:58 That's one of the reasons why I'd love the Fedora SCM switched to git. Mai 21 21:08:10 tim_n, review request for what? Mai 21 21:08:19 The Player package Mai 21 21:08:33 tim_n, if you have a building player package.. you can request a review Mai 21 21:08:41 tim_n, make sure i see the bug number Mai 21 21:08:56 tim_n, you are sponsored at this point? Mai 21 21:09:03 Ok, I'll file it. Are you going to do the review? Mai 21 21:09:07 Yes, I'm sponsored. Mai 21 21:09:08 tim_n: +1...put up player Mai 21 21:09:13 tim_n, more than likely Mai 21 21:09:39 * hedayat (n=hedayat@78.39.12.10) hat #fedora-robotics betreten Mai 21 21:10:23 hi all! Mai 21 21:10:36 hedayat: hey Mai 21 21:10:56 makghosh: sorry! I'm too late Mai 21 21:11:08 np Mai 21 21:11:47 makghosh: this is our first meeting, nice to meet you! :) Mai 21 21:11:59 I've met tim_n before Mai 21 21:12:19 Hi hedayat, nice that you could make it! Mai 21 21:12:33 thanks Mai 21 21:12:38 :) Mai 21 21:12:50 hedayat is member of the development team of the RoboCup 3D Simulation league soccer server. And this is exactly what he's planning to package :-) Mai 21 21:13:06 hedayat: me too....lets' have a quick intro. i'm Arindam from India Mai 21 21:13:32 makghosh: And I'm Hedayat from Iran Mai 21 21:14:16 As tim said, I'm a member of 3d soccer server development team (and also a team participating in the competitions) Mai 21 21:14:58 well...that's great indeed :) Mai 21 21:15:06 spoleeba: I'm going to fix some smaller issues with the player package tommorrow and then I'll post the review request and send you the bz# Mai 21 21:15:12 thanks Mai 21 21:15:18 tim_n, good Mai 21 21:16:18 I was a little busy these days, but hopefully I'll fix my spec file according to Fedora packaging guidelines Mai 21 21:16:20 hedayat: did you already make your way through the process of becoming a "proper" contributor (FAS account...)? Mai 21 21:16:54 tim_n: yes, I've taken the first steps Mai 21 21:17:15 tim_n: I've a FAS account and I'm in the wiki editors group Mai 21 21:17:19 hedayat: That's great. If you want a review (before the official review) or need help just post what you have to your fedorapeople.org webspace or so and then we can have a lok. Mai 21 21:17:52 tim_n: OK, great Mai 21 21:18:28 I've a question about rpath problem Mai 21 21:18:58 Oh yeah, that's an annoying problem... Mai 21 21:18:58 In fedora, we should add files in /etc/ld.so.conf Mai 21 21:19:09 but for upstream, what should they do? Mai 21 21:19:22 Actually you should package it in a way that everything is in the default paths right away. Mai 21 21:19:48 Does this work everywhere? (putting a file in /etc/ld.so.conf) Mai 21 21:20:01 Oh, let me explain a little Mai 21 21:20:10 in the default sserver package Mai 21 21:20:32 they put all of the libraries in $prefix/lib/rcssserver3d/ Mai 21 21:20:48 You should use a file in /etc/ld.so.conf.d then Mai 21 21:21:14 now, should I move all of the libraries to lib/ directory in my rpm packages? Mai 21 21:21:47 Or it is better to add a file in /etc/ld.so.conf which contains /usr/lib/rcssserver3d? Mai 21 21:21:51 xulrunner for example does it by adding a file in /etc/ld.so.conf.d with just the pathname in it Mai 21 21:22:13 So I'd go for this one. Mai 21 21:22:50 This makes any modification of /etc/ld.so.conf superfluous Mai 21 21:23:53 OK, this is exactly what I did Mai 21 21:24:44 (sorry, I mistakenly used /etc/ld.so.conf but I meant /etc/ld.so.conf.d/) Mai 21 21:24:52 but there is a problem Mai 21 21:25:05 does this solution work in other distros? Mai 21 21:27:19 (I want to know if I can add this in the upstream package. Currently there is 2 binaries in the upstream package which use rpath. What is the best solution for the upstream source package?) Mai 21 21:29:14 rpath is not allowed I think in Fedora packages, so it has to be removed. I can't tell if other distros support this directory as well. Mai 21 21:30:42 hedayat, rpaths get nuked... in fact dont we have a way to strip rpaths as part of hte build process? Mai 21 21:31:00 hedayat, if you cant patch them out Mai 21 21:32:04 spoleeba: what kind of patch do you suggest? I don't like to just remove the rpaths since people who compile the Mai 21 21:32:13 spoleeba: package from source will have trouble Mai 21 21:32:27 spoleeba: Is there any solution to make both sides happy? Mai 21 21:34:11 spoleeba: (I should admit something: in fact, I added the rpaths myself!! since many people had problems with binaries unable to find libraries. Later I came to the fedora packaging guidelines and saw that it's not allowed here!) Mai 21 21:34:13 :D Mai 21 21:34:23 hedayat, dont do anything to the actual code.... if you are making a package for Fedora you can add patches that are applied at package build time Mai 21 21:35:08 hedayat: have a look at http://fedorapeople.org/~timn/player/player.spec Mai 21 21:35:20 There I patch out the rpath in the spec file. Mai 21 21:35:24 spoleeba: I can do this. But if rpaths are not good, I'd liked to do "the right thing" in the upstream too. Mai 21 21:35:30 Maybe a similar approach would work for you Mai 21 21:35:54 hedayat: rpaths are a good thing if you for example want to work "in the tree" and not necessarily install it. Mai 21 21:36:00 We use it during development as well. Mai 21 21:36:24 hedayat, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#head-a1dfb5f46bf4098841e31a75d833e6e1b3e72544 Mai 21 21:36:55 hedayat, if the reasons why Fedora strips Rpath make sense to you as upstream.. you are free to stop using rpaths or not in the upstream code Mai 21 21:37:44 OK, thank you all Mai 21 21:37:45 hedayat, rpaths are security concerns.... Mai 21 21:38:30 So, at first I'll remove rpaths just for the RPM package. Then I'll try to see if I can do something better in the upstream too Mai 21 21:39:25 hedayat, at the very least...try to make it a configure switch whether or not to use them Mai 21 21:39:46 hedayat, at build time... i dont think there is a generally acceptable way to make compiling from source work everywhere Mai 21 21:42:51 spoleeba: ok. So it seems that I can't do much there. I'll probably remove the rpaths in the spec file Mai 21 21:45:41 And something: there is nothing official yet, but if I can push this package soon, Fedora might be the distribution which will be used Mai 21 21:45:51 in the July competitions in China Mai 21 21:46:04 :) Mai 21 21:48:40 That'd be awesome! Mai 21 21:49:38 hedayat: ah!! great... :) Mai 21 21:50:11 Yes I think it'll be nice. Mai 21 21:50:58 Is Fedora the common distribution for the soccer server development team? Mai 21 21:51:11 spoleeba: did you try out the NXT stuff? Mai 21 21:52:02 tim_n, i haven't had a chance... i need to look at the available robotc code..and see what the i2c commands are for the brick Mai 21 21:52:32 tim_n, the multiplexor is just a set of i2c devices together on one bus Mai 21 21:53:04 spoleeba: Ok. Mai 21 21:53:16 tim_n, i already have a usb to i2c bridge for other reasons.. as soon as i know what the i2c commands are... it should be cake adding them to python-nxt Mai 21 21:54:08 tim_n: I don't know but I don't think so! :( Mai 21 21:54:28 hedayat: let's change it :-) Mai 21 21:56:25 tim_n: yes! I'm trying to do so. Since I've created RPM packages for Fedora, it is now really easy to install the server on it Mai 21 21:57:12 tim_n: and if it become an official package... it'll be much easier than any other distro Mai 21 21:57:43 tim_n: I think it'll become the distro of choice for new commers Mai 21 21:58:07 tim_n: (It'll certainly happen if Fedora Robotics Spin become a reality!) Mai 21 21:59:35 Sounds like a plan Mai 21 22:00:12 tim_n: :) Mai 21 22:00:38 Ok, guys, is there anything else on the agenda for today? Mai 21 22:02:19 tim_n: I've talked a lot! it should be enough for now ;) Mai 21 22:02:50 makghosh, spoleeba? Mai 21 22:03:17 tim_n: nopes....lets conclude Mai 21 22:03:34 I'd like to line up the next meeting in two weeks for now, this time really at 16:00 UTC. Is that Ok for everybody? Mai 21 22:03:57 16 utc...i think is... 8 for me Mai 21 22:04:12 i think i can consistently make that until we are off daylight savings time Mai 21 22:04:12 An 18:00 over here. Mai 21 22:04:35 Ok. To sum up: Mai 21 22:04:37 execept... 2 weeks from now.. im in AU Mai 21 22:04:38 tim_n: 20:30 here. That's fine for me! Mai 21 22:04:51 1. Get PSG packaged in the coming weeks Mai 21 22:04:58 2. get a demo LiveCD setup Mai 21 22:05:04 3. investigate extensibility of PSG Mai 21 22:05:16 4. Setup demo scenario and small application for demo purposes Mai 21 22:06:14 5. hedayat will package RoboCup 3D Sim Soccer Server in parallel Mai 21 22:06:19 Still in the pipe for later: NXT, Carmen Mai 21 22:07:00 Nice! Mai 21 22:07:15 tim_n: well about the next meeting time...please don't keep it between 3rd-13th june Mai 21 22:07:28 have my semester exams then :( Mai 21 22:07:54 Ok, what about June 2nd, spoleeba, are you then available? Mai 21 22:08:08 1st june will be ok ain't it?? Mai 21 22:08:26 I'll be on vacation till that day... Mai 21 22:09:44 ok then make it on 6th..saturday...weekends Mai 21 22:10:11 will it be ok for you?? Mai 21 22:10:39 next is sunday so i still have a day for the next exam you know ;) Mai 21 22:10:54 spoleeba: hedayat?? Mai 21 22:11:25 well it should be fine for me Mai 21 22:12:49 tim_n: so 16:00 UTC 6th june Mai 21 22:13:30 Saturdays is problematic since I'm usually out for recreation... Mai 21 22:14:04 tim_n: ok then keep it as it is....i will try to be there :) Mai 21 22:14:26 Let's wait for the off-time of spoleeba, maybe then the solution get's clearer :-) Mai 21 22:14:37 spoleeba: when are you available again? Mai 21 22:15:11 uhm 3 weeks im home Mai 21 22:15:20 then in utah 4 weeks from now Mai 21 22:20:39 And what about AU? Mai 21 22:21:21 (AU is Australia?) Mai 21 22:28:11 * makghosh hat die Verbindung getrennt ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") Mai 21 22:37:18 Ok, I'll schedule in two weeks for now, we can discuss on the mailing list if it should be moved. Mai 21 22:37:35 tim_n: OK! Mai 21 22:37:48 Read you later. Mai 21 22:38:09 ok Mai 21 22:38:15 I'm leaving.. Mai 21 22:38:23 bye all Mai 21 22:38:34 Bye Mai 21 22:38:38 Python interface unloaded **** BEENDE LOGBUCH UM Wed May 21 22:38:38 2008