[10:03] KDE SIG meeting start [10:03] who's present today? [10:03] Present. [10:04] present [10:04] lurking [10:04] or, for ltinkl's benefit, whose present? :) [10:05] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- Release note planning http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureKDE4#head-f0d9e48dee79abc990b7d055bc4552c1f2395eec". [10:05] topic 1, release notes planning, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureKDE4#head-f0d9e48dee79abc990b7d055bc4552c1f2395eec [10:05] our list of items to cover looks like an excellent start, just need someone to actually do it. :) [10:06] I'm willing to take care of it. [10:06] (I also wrote that list.) [10:06] good, any other suggestions on what else to mention? [10:06] But I'd like some feedback. [10:07] Well, if the list is already perfect, I'll just write about the stuff on the current list. ;-) [10:08] I forget, who's the docs fellow working on the kde DUG ? maybe some cross-references, linking with that may make sense. [10:09] ah, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MarcWiriadisastra [10:10] * dgilmore is here [10:10] ok, moving on... [10:10] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- kde-l10n". [10:10] topic 2: kde-l10n, any progres here? status? [10:11] than? [10:11] rdieter: the current kde-i10n-4.0 is so broken [10:11] ok, hold, and revisit with 4.0.1 release? [10:11] rdieter: my area, the current tarballs are broken, waiting for 4.0.1 which should be released in a few days [10:12] sweet, thx [10:12] rdieter: yes, we should wait for 4.0.1. [10:12] btw 4.0.1 tagging happens tomorrow [10:13] as i know kde upstream will release 4.0.x monthly [10:13] oh yeah! [10:13] ok, move on then. [10:14] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ". [10:14] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ , comment, feedback? [10:14] I did some clarification on section 1c: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ?action=diff&rev2=6&rev1=5 [10:15] feel free to update, beautify, editorialize, criticize, yada yada. [10:15] looks good to me [10:15] just got tired of answering all the same "will kde4 be released for f8" type questions. :) [10:15] had a request last week to have botha KDE3 and KDE4 desktop for F-9 because they felt they could not work with KDE4 [10:16] long term, consider having a general faq at (something like): http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/FAQ [10:16] We can't maintain KDE 3 forever... [10:16] i agree personally im ok with KDE4's shortcommings [10:17] dgilmore: nod, that can be addressed too (thought the parallel-installability issue is already addressed in the FAQ). [10:17] Im sure that 4.0.1 will be better [10:17] If people don't want to move to KDE 4 yet, they can keep Fedora 8 which will get updates until 1 month after the Fedora 10 release. [10:17] it will, it contains many fixes compared to 4.0.0 [10:17] right, mentioning that it's perfectly ok to stick with f8/kde3, is a worthy addition. :) [10:19] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- Nokia acquiring Trolltech, http://dot.kde.org/1201517986/". [10:19] next topic: Nokia acquiring Trolltech. [10:19] interesting topic :) [10:20] just an fyi for anyone living under rock lately. :) [10:20] I don't think this will change anything for us. [10:20] im curious how it will effect QT on the desktop [10:20] dgilmore: Wait and see. :-) [10:20] but it seems they brought it for the cross platform support [10:21] so here's a recap from Aaron Seigo, KDE e.v. president: [10:21] hopefully its a good thing for all [10:21] * Qt continues to be developed by the TT team [10:21] * Nokia will be getting more involved with KDE [10:21] * FreeQt remains [10:21] * Nokia will maintain the dual licensing model (commercial, GPLv[23} + [10:21] exceptions) [10:21] * Nokia will be a KDE patron [10:21] nokia seems to get FOSS [10:21] This doesn't change anything unless they no longer support GPL [10:22] warren: see above [10:22] so far (here),looks all good, nokia is saying and doing all the right things, atm. [10:22] nod [10:22] what is unclear: Qt under Mac/Win, Qtopia [10:23] Those are fairly irrelevant to Fedora anyway. [10:23] idd [10:24] ltinkl: right, FreeQt currently only references the x11 edition. negotiations are ongoing with notkia/trolltech to extend that to other/all GPL'd platforms. [10:25] well, let's not dwell, move on? [10:26] Yes, let's move on. [10:26] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- creating our own defaults.list (see also shared-mime-info, XDG_CONFIG_DATA)". [10:26] topic: creating our own defaults.list (see also shared-mime-info, XDG_CONFIG_DATA) [10:27] as is, shared-mime-info includes /usr/share/applications/defaults.list which defines default applications (shocker, all gnome apps). [10:27] I'd advocate kde use it's own, tailored for a kde desktop, obviously. [10:28] rdieter: that sounds like a good plan [10:28] I think there's no way around it, really. [10:28] my quick-n-dirty idea was to put it in kde-settings, @ (something like): /usr/share/kde-settings/kde-profile/default/share/applications/defaults.list and point $XDG_CONF(G_DATA there [10:28] Sharing is good when it works, but for defaults, it just can't work. [10:29] this is something that all alternative desktops will likely need to consider. [10:29] Putting it in kde-settings is certainly the right plan. [10:29] It's a setting after all. :-) [10:30] But maybe /usr/share/applications/kde4-defaults.list (as for kde4-applications.menu) would be better? [10:30] rdieter: yes, it's good idea to put it in kdesetting [10:30] Kevin_Kofler: +1 [10:30] Kevin_Kofler: I think it *has* to be named defaults.list (prefixing isn't used, but I could be wrong) [10:31] I've just been following recent discussions on freedesktop.org xdg lists on this topic. [10:31] rdieter: Oh OK, then putting it in the default profile directory looks like a sensible plan. [10:32] the spec (I think) says DE's look in $XDG_CONFIG_DATA/applications/defaults.list [10:32] We could of course still put it in /usr/share/applications/kde4-defaults.list and put a symlink to there at /usr/share/kde-settings/kde-profile/default/share/applications/defaults.list [10:32] or /usr/share/applications/kde4/defaults.list even [10:32] but I'm not sure what purpose that would serve. ?? [10:33] Let's just do what works, if putting it in the default profile is easiest, just put it there. [10:33] alrighty, I'll put in a basic defaults.list soon, and we'll iterate improvements from there. [10:34] side issue, I was thinking it would be a good idea also to use hosted.fedoraproject.org [10:35] for fedora/kde type stuff, in particular, to host sources of things for which there is no other upstream source, [10:35] ie, kde-settings , potentially bluecurve stuff, quarticurve, etc... [10:36] The original Bluecurve stuff is already in fedorahosted git. [10:36] ok, well, you get the idea. :) [10:36] My Quarticurve ports/forks aren't there at the moment, upstream for that is kde-look.org right now. [10:38] dgilmore: hey, mr. infrastructure dood, can you help hook us up? :) [10:38] kde-settings should definitely be in fedorahosted. [10:39] well, I'll try to make headway there after meeting, let's move on. [10:39] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- knetworkmanger, see also http://bugzilla.redhat.com/429431: nm-applet: not possible to quit/disable (?)". [10:40] topic: knetworkmanager hopefully coming soon to rawhide, yay, but... see also: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/429431: nm-applet: not possible to quit/disable (?) [10:40] I think that if we wait for the NM folks to fix this, we'll not get anywhere any time soon. :-( [10:41] looks like we'll have a buildable (dunno how well it works yet) knetworkmanager soon, hopefuly, which is good news. [10:41] My suggestion was patching the autostart code in kdelibs so a blacklist can be set. [10:41] on option certainly. [10:43] I guess not much else to say, just wanted to keep folks informed. [10:43] I'm not sure how nm-applet gets autostarted, it's certainly not KDE which does it [10:43] ltinkl: It is, through /etc/xdg/autostart. [10:44] ltinkl: it uses /etc/xdg/autostart [10:44] aha [10:44] jinx! [10:44] side-issue, than is working to patch kde4 to support xdg/autostart (like we did for kde3), and upstream the fix(es). [10:45] ok, then take the nm-applet.desktop file and add OnlyRunIn=Gnome [10:45] * ltinkl looking at the exact keyword there [10:45] ltinkl: not ideal, it should be possible to run nm-applet or knetworkmanger in any DE. [10:46] rdieter: we can get things setup on fedorahosted [10:46] rdieter: i have to manually run nm-applet on my laptop [10:46] rdieter: sure, I meant editing the desktop file only in the autostart dir [10:46] it should be still possible to start nmapplet manually [10:47] ltinkl: The exact keyword is OnlyShowIn. [10:47] ltinkl: and force folks to have to start it manually? ugh. [10:47] what I'd like to see from nm-applet is a way to disable it (like what knetworkmanager includes). [10:47] maybe I'm dreaming. [10:48] AFAIK the issue is that GNOME allows unchecking autostart entries in some dialog. [10:48] rdieter: is a bug filed for that? [10:48] http://bugzilla.redhat.com/429431 ? [10:48] So the GNOME applets don't care about allowing to disable them within the applet. [10:48] it's not even possible to exit/quit nm-applet (short of manually killing it). [10:49] well, time's short, and let's not dwell here to long... can we move on? [10:50] please [10:50] ye [10:50] Let's move on. [10:51] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- http://bugzilla.redhat.com/430566: nsplugins update fixes a number of issues". [10:51] fyi: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/430566: nsplugins update fixes a number of issues [10:51] rdieter: just fixed, move on :) [10:51] ltinkl is working on that. [10:52] What about KDE 4? Is this getting committed to 4.0.1? 4.1? [10:52] different code [10:52] completely [10:52] But it needs the same fixes... [10:52] Or at least some of them. [10:52] I think most/all of it should be in 4.0.1 too. [10:52] than said Flash isn't working in 4.0.0. [10:52] not with nspluginwrapper anyway. [10:52] Qt4 supports xembed by itself so the khtml code is different; I've seen some fixes wrt this but I have no idea about the KDE4 state now [10:53] Let's see what happens with 4.0.1 then, move on for now. [10:53] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- http://bugzilla.redhat.com/430471: qtdemo-qt4 is segfaulting". [10:53] next one: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/430471: qtdemo-qt4 is segfaulting , looks like a mesa issue (hopefully). [10:53] that's about all I've got. [10:53] looking at the backtraces, it seems to be an OpenGL/X driver issue [10:54] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE-SIG meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-01-29 -- open discussion". [10:54] got ~5 minutes, left, open floor, anything else for today? [10:54] I added a section about KDE 3 on F9+ to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ [10:55] I have a couple items if there is time. 1.) Docs (couf) is looking for a KDE user to look over some KDE parts of some of our Docs. 2.) is there an official statement from the SIG that we can point people in #fedora to when asking for KDE4 on F7 and F8. [10:55] EvilBob: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ is it. :) [10:55] ad 2. that's what http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ is about. :-) [10:56] thanks, I will pass that ON [10:56] I don't think the docs work will take more than an hour [10:57] what is comes down to is we have two options [10:57] 1.) we get someone from the KDE SIG or a user to verify [10:57] 2.) we drop all mentions of KDE in the Docs [10:58] I would hate for the second to happen [10:58] If someone is willing to help us out just stop by #fedora-docs [10:59] EvilBob: The problem is that the current mentions of KDE in the desktop user guide are very incomplete. [10:59] Kevin_Kofler: and we WANT to fix that [10:59] See, all the default apps listed there are the default apps on the DVD with GNOME selected and/or the GNOME live spin. [10:59] So basically the entire guide needs to be rewritten for the KDE spin, using the current one as a reference. [11:00] Kevin_Kofler: the goal is the best user experience for ALL users not just the GNOME users [11:00] EvilBob: That's great, but documenting the default apps in GNOME only won't get you there. [11:01] Kevin_Kofler: there is a lot of restructuring happening in a lot of the docs. I hope things will be better. [11:01] So all the sections about applications need to have a version using the default apps in the KDE spin too. [11:01] Not just the section about the desktop itself. [11:01] EvilBob: Kevin has strong feelings that a completely separate guide/document is required, and while I agree with the sentiments, it'll take a lot more work than I think anyone is ready/willing to commit to atm. [11:02] I don't want to take a lot of your guy's time either [11:02] so, in the meantime, fixing up the things as-is to be better and more complete would at least be an incremental improvment to the status quo (which is what you're doing, thanks!) [11:02] Just looking for a bit to help us do a better job for you. [11:03] EvilBob: I'll help as much as I can (time permitting) [11:03] looks like time is up for this week, thanks all! [11:03] * EvilBob has not used KDE since FC4 or FC5... [11:03] thanks All