[Di Aug 14 2007] [18:01:53] rdieter, than, Kevin_Kofler. Can we start the meeting? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:02:00] sure. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:02:17] svahl: Kevin_Kofler, than, won't be here today. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:02:31] I'm here for now, but I might leave early. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:03:16] and sounds like than is having health problems, in the hospital. Send good vibes his way. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:03:35] nothing too serious, hopefully, tonsilitis is sounds. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:04:59] oh. hopefully he will be fine again soon [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:05:15] so... worked on 3 big updates yesterday: kdegraphics, koffice: xpdf security update, and kdemultimedia: (re)including kfile_mp3, kfile_mpeg. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:06:03] should have a chance to get started with new kde4 builds today (finally). [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:06:18] great [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:06:24] anyone else have other topics to discuss? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:06:35] * rdieter runs to refill coffee quick... [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:06:39] svahl put this one up on the agenda: #247769 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:06:44] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=247769 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:06:49] I think this is a yum bug. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:06:54] me too [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:07:32] but I've seen this for two weeks or so (I was awaiting an update that would fix this) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:08:00] maybe we should inform some yum guys about it. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:08:50] Yes, I think reassigning the bug to yum is the right course of action. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:09:37] * rdieter is back, coffee in hand. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:09:55] hmm... bugzilla biffed that, I didn't get CC'd. ?? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:10:07] I've already got an open bug on yum, so we can dup it. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:10:39] * rdieter goes to check... [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:11:05] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=250476 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:11:50] One thing I just thought of: what about FeaturePulseAudio? Rawhide has much stuff switched to use it now, shall we switch aRts? We need to configure it to use the ESD protocol, then it will work with PA's ESD emulation. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:12:20] But last I checked full duplex had to be turned off or it would deadlock. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:12:27] I'm not sure if this has been fixed since. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:12:28] PA also emulates alsa, afaict. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:12:41] which means it should "just work". [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:12:44] Hmmm, indeed, we can just let it use PA's ALSA plugin. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:13:12] So I guess we let things as they are and only change them if something's broken. :-) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:13:16] not sure which is preferable, esd emu, or alsa. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:13:33] But at least one of the GNOME packages has been switched to use the ESD protocol. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:13:42] interesting. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:13:59] I'd say if full duplex works with the ALSA plugin, then that's preferable. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:14:07] Unless ESD has been fixed. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:14:18] not even all kde apps use arts, so it may not be worth the effort of creating an arts-specific solution. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:14:39] esp kde4 stuff. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:14:57] Phonon might also need adjustments for the default Xine config to use. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:15:20] Though normally this should be set up within xine-lib. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:15:29] yeah, hopefully we can actually start testing/banging-on that, once we have some kde4 pkgs to work with. :) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:16:12] But I think getting aRts to play nice with PA is also important to avoid KDE 3 and 4 apps clashing on the sound devices. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:16:55] I had hoped/assumed PA would solve that problem for us. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:17:11] kinda how alsa/dmix coulda/woulda done that too. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:17:30] If the PA ALSA plugin works as advertised, it should work too. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:17:42] we'll just have to wait and see at this point. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:17:45] +1 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:19:22] Next subject? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:20:05] Package list for the livecd (atm kde3): http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/F8Test1 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:20:30] should there be some changes? (koffice-krita doesn't fit on the cd atm) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:20:41] f8 kde livecd is going to get ugly, when/if we ever include anything kde4-related. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:21:13] Even just kdelibs4 is huge due to Oxygen. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:21:43] quick-n-dirty, simple solutions: [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:21:47] 1. keep livecd kde3 only [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:22:03] 2. don't limit it to CD size. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:22:25] 3. pray for miracle [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:22:31] :) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:22:54] option 2 would be bad imho [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:23:03] there may be a fourth [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:23:13] if you ask me, I'd rather avoid the pain, and go with 2. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:23:22] Well, there are overlong CDs (CD-R90). [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:23:27] if you could recompile rpm's and remove overhead or remove overhead from a disc image... [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:23:29] They're not really cheaper than DVDs. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:23:39] But they might work for people with CD drives only. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:23:53] There's even CD-R99, but drive compatibility is lackluster there. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:24:00] kanarip: are you volunteering to do that? :) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:24:24] rdieter, you think i can? ;-) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:25:01] kanarip: you're welcome to try. If you come up with something useful and workable, great. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:25:16] What about fixing one of the Fedora icon themes to work with both KDE 3 and KDE 4 with the proper symlinks, then putting Oxygen and CrystalSVG into subpackages and dropping them from the live CD? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:25:22] i could be able to come up with a proof-of-concept, yeah [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:25:32] kanarip: though, personally, it would seem to be something where the work/payoff ratio isn't very good. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:25:38] Especially Oxygen is very large. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:26:01] rdieter, technical challenges usually pay off for me personally ;-) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:26:16] And good old Bluecurve is actually already on the live CD. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:26:21] * kanarip doesn't know what 0xygen is or what it's used for [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:26:33] Kevin_Kofler: good suggestion, we could definitely look into that, at least splitting-off or omitting the 40MB of scalable/svg oxygen icons (that's what ubuntu is doing atm) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:26:33] Though I'm not sure people will like us if we default to the old Bluecurve icons again. ;-) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:27:07] Oxygen is the KDE 4 theme set, we're particularly worried about the icons because those add up to several dozen MBs. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:27:17] right [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:27:42] in fairness, oxygen is bigger due to more complete coverage of icon-theme-spec, and full scalable/svg support as well. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:27:52] Of course. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:28:10] So using something else will almost certainly need to some broken icons. :-( [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:28:23] Or not really fitting ones if we symlink the heck out of them. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:28:47] I never knew how incompatible kde3 was with gnome/icon-theme-spec until relatively recently. ick. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:29:24] more the reason to use kde4! :) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:29:31] *sigh* [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:30:08] development freeze is in two weeks. Is it realistic that we could get a working full kde4 till then? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:30:09] Unfortunately, both KDE 4 and current GNOME still have many non-standard icons. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:30:17] Mostly application-specific ones, but also some common ones. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:30:30] unless someone puts in a monumental effort to make some other theme 100% kde3-compatible, it doesn't look like we have any alternative then sticking with crystalsvg for kde3. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:30:42] svahl: *feature* freeze, not devel freeze. :) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:30:56] unless my understanding is wrong. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:31:11] Yes, losing CrystalSVG as at least a fallback will definitely lead to some breakage in KDE 3. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:31:59] Making a symlink feast of Oxygen to support the old KDE 3 names might work, but this doesn't solve the Oxygen size problem. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:32:06] so, if given the 2 options: 1. livecd kde3 only 2. make bigger (> CD) image, which to do? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:32:35] it may turn out not to be so black/white, but... [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:32:46] which is the lesser evil? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:33:06] That depends on how much KDE 4 stuff we want to default to. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:33:06] good question. I think the livecds are now also used as a normal installation media. so it should use the normal kde (and we're hoping this is kde4) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:33:19] If it's just kdegames, we can live without it, if it's half of the packages, no. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:33:32] Kevin_Kofler: and at least some of kdemultimedia4 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:34:01] Well, we don't need the Phonon backends if we don't put any KDE 4 apps on the live CD. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:34:03] we haven't even looked into the other kde4 modules yet really. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:34:30] Kevin_Kofler: true, that would be option 1. then. :) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:34:58] or close to it, anyway. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:35:18] well, think about it, we don't need to make any hard decision right now. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:35:37] I think we really need to wait for what KDE 4 stuff lands in before making the decision. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:35:43] +99999 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:35:53] +1 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:36:40] ok, well, sorry to be the blocker for not providing anything kde4-related... been too busy @ (real)work lately. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:37:16] if I was ever brave/smart enough to get any plague or koji instances running... :) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:37:31] right now, all I've got is mock + home_brew shell scripts. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:38:16] Well, all the stuff at http://repo.calcforge.org/ is built with plain old rpmbuild, your build system is modern in comparison. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:38:46] ;) I *used* to build everything by hand via rpmbuild too, but that's before I learned the beauty that is mock. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:39:19] I had (at one time) about 5-6 differerent redhat linux/fedora versions installed on a box of mine... [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:39:34] and abou the same number of VirtualPC instances. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:39:46] not fun (and not fast either). [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:40:03] are the specs for kdebase, kdepimlibs and kdelibs ready to run in mock? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:40:30] svahl: no, they need some work to mesh with recent updates to kde-settings (which include kde4.macros for rpm) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:41:03] ok. thanks [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:41:18] than starting working on that before falling ill. I'll pick it up, and try to finish asap. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:41:33] My x86_64 RPMs are built in QEMU software emulation, that's slow... Obviously I don't have KDE RPMs build that way. ;-) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:41:59] anyone else is can help out on that too, we can give cvs access to any trusted KDE SIG'er. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:42:41] I have to leave now. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:42:44] Beenden Kevin_Kofler hat den Server verlassen ("Bye!"). [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:42:58] Kevin_Kofler: thanks. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:43:20] well. my experiences with the kde specs are quite basically [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:43:51] svahl: tis ok, you're already our livecd-tools guru/ninja. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:43:52] I've tried to build kdeadmin4. It is all, but not a clean spec. :) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:44:18] svahl: please send it to me, I can clean it up, it'll be better than starting from scratch. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:44:50] or send to kde-redhat-devel@lists.sourceforge.net (you on that list, yes?0 [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:45:43] yes, I've suscribed to that list. I will send it there [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:45:44] ChitleshGoorah: weren't you working on some other kde4 module specfiles too? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:46:49] lastly, we have few kde-related package reviews needing help, in particular, [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:47:01] rdieter: maybe we should create a wiki page with a howto to checkout the kde4-branch and build the rpms from the specs? so someone else could have a look too [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:47:15] ilmbase: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=251521 (needed for OpenEXR update) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:47:46] svahl: +1, at least the cvs access part anyway. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:48:03] any volunteers? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:48:48] I could try it tomorrow (but need some help) [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:50:02] svahl: thanks, if you can't get round-tuit in finite time, let us know, and we'll deligate the job to someone else. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:50:14] ok. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:50:39] svahl: I or others on the lists can help answer any ?'s you have. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:51:08] anyone else aware of kde-related pkg reviews in need of some love? [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:53:50] don't have one [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:55:09] ok. that's all for today then. thanks all. [Di Aug 14 2007] [18:55:35] see you next week