[Di Mär 20 2007] [21:00:49] KDE SIG meeting start, who's present? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:01:02] hi [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:01:02] Betreten Kevin_Kofler hat den Kanal betreten (n=Kevin_Ko@chello213047068123.17.14.vie.surfer.at). [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:01:19] svahl: jeremy was asking for you.. :) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:01:35] here I am :) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:01:45] jeremy? Might as well make livecd talk topic item 1 [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:01:50] svahl: I mostly just wanted to say thanks for all your testing and prodding at the livecd tools [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:02:35] no problem. was me a pleasure :) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:03:24] rdieter: and sure... I was mostly going to lurk and watch the discussion [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:03:48] a related topic posed from Board meeting this morning also was to focus solely on making KDE livecd (instead of a conventional KDE spin). [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:04:18] watcha think? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:05:55] i haven't tried an installation with liveinst yet. two weeks ago I just recompiled liveinst against to see if it starts - it did. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:06:04] IMHO, there should be at least one DVD-sized spin, whether a Live DVD or an installer-only DVD. For the Live CD, compromises have to be made on the package set, for example no development tools, possibly no Krusader, ... [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:06:39] Also only one locale. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:07:34] jeremy, we had been wondering when/if LiveDVD's will be possible, do you know? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:07:50] they'll definitely be possible [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:08:06] they work now, although there's a slight tweak you have to make to livecd-creator depending on how big what you're creating is [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:08:29] Keven_Kofler: maybe a liveDVD would be the way to go then? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:09:24] Maybe. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:09:45] * rdieter is undecided whether the extra stuff (like the mentioned development tools), is worth worrying about for a live disk. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:10:45] Another thing to consider: Are upgrades possible from a Live CD/DVD or only fresh installs? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:10:53] I really like to have some free space to let the local communities include their own languages (like discussed last week) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:11:41] Kevin_Kofler: you mean using a liveCD to upgrade from FC6 -> F7? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:11:47] Right. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:11:47] Kevin_Kofler: you can't do an upgrade using what's on the live cd/dvd as what you're upgrading to [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:11:53] no. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:12:07] That would be a good reason to make a non-live-CD version. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:12:19] Kevin_Kofler: folks upgrading should be using Prime or Everything anyway. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:12:37] (else they'll end up with partly unupgraded bits) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:13:21] I think "Everything" is really the only thing which avoids that problem... [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:13:27] right. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:13:54] See, f13/releng has been assuming all along we were going to be producing (at most) 1 spin/iso. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:13:59] I've had my fair share of 2-stage upgrades: upgrade Core with Anaconda, then fire up Synaptic or whatever to clean up the mess and upgrade the rest. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:14:43] I'd like to focus our energies... [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:15:27] that's all. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:16:22] focussing on livecd takes a lot of other complexities out of the picture, like comps, for example. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:17:11] well, think about it anyway. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:17:47] bummer than isn't here, we're still blocking on him for packaging until things are merged. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:18:11] any other topics folks want to discuss today? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:21:22] What about the latest KDevelop? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:21:28] Rawhide still only has 3.3.6... [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:21:48] But I guess that's something to ask Than about, too bad he's not here. :-( [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:21:51] Sure, we can ping than to update to 3.4 (that is the latest yes?) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:22:11] I forget which version ended up getting reviewed (prolly 3.3.6) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:22:16] not that it matters much. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:22:37] Yes, 3.4.0 is the latest according to kde-apps.org. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:24:22] jeremy: (if you're still listening), f13 and notting wanted to discuss comps issues, specifically, type=default items. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:24:58] sometime, so we can add type=default items to kde-desktop group (or something equivalent) soon. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:25:11] or should I just start doing it? [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:25:29] for kde-desktop, just do it [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:26:02] no qualms about items being listed in 2 places? kde-desktop + [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:26:25] some, but I'll just suck them up for the moment ;) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:27:06] thanks, will do. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:27:41] well, I guess that's all I've got for today. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:28:27] I'll take a day or 2 off work sometime over the next week or 2, and start wrapping up a lot of our loose ends... [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:28:46] update/clean-up: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFedoraKDE [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:29:30] and work to identify remaining todo items, and assign these remaining tasks to folks. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:30:54] anything else to discuss? (if not, I'll close the meeting in 60...) [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:31:41] 30... [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:32:30] meeting closed, thanks folks. [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:33:52] Beenden Kevin_Kofler hat den Server verlassen ("Bye!"). [Di Mär 20 2007] [21:35:03] error Closing Link: dslb-088-070-001-184.pools.arcor-ip.net ("bye") *** Protokolldatei gestartet *** Datum: Di Jun 12 17:49:57 2007 [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:49:57] Betreten Sie haben den Kanal #fedora-meeting betreten (n=svahl@dslb-088-070-002-115.pools.arcor-ip.net). [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:49:58] Topic Das Kanal-Topic lautet: "http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel -- Meetings often get logged -- see schedule in the wiki for next meeting". [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:49:58] Topic Das Topic wurde am 11.06.2007 20:20:09 von f13 gesetzt. [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:49:58] Modus Kanalmodi: Keine Nachrichten von außen, Keine Farben erlaubt [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:49:58] Erstellt Kanal wurde erstellt am: 18.01.2007 20:10:56. [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:50:25] Betreten XulChris hat den Kanal betreten (i=xulchris@adsl-75-15-193-164.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net). [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:51:27] Betreten RedKarl hat den Kanal betreten (n=RedKarl@ALyon-257-1-85-46.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr). [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:53:52] Beenden XulChris hat den Server verlassen (Client Quit). [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:54:45] Betreten pingou hat den Kanal betreten (n=Pingou@haar197.athome221.wau.nl). [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:56:47] Beenden Karl_le_Rouge hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). [Di Jun 12 2007] [17:57:44] Betreten thimm hat den Kanal betreten (n=thimm@p54BD5BF5.dip.t-dialin.net). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:02:32] is anyone present for kde sig meeting? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:02:45] I'm here. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:02:51] I'm here. hi [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:03:00] Hi Kevin, svahl [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:03:46] rdieter: are you here? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:05:17] Kevin_Kofler: i will commit the fix into cvs later today [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:06:25] Kevin_Kofler: so i hope david will push this in f7 update soon [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:06:33] Thanks. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:06:59] Kevin_Kofler: thanks your good work [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:07:19] I'd like to ask if I could be added to the pkg.acl for the kde* packages (or the pkg.acl files be "cvs rm"ed altogether as has been done for some other packages) so I can help with the KDE 4 packaging for F8. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:08:14] Betreten GeroldKa hat den Kanal betreten (n=GeroldKa@fedora/geroldka). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:09:08] here (on the phone atm) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:09:42] Kevin_Kofler: it's ok with me, we could add you into pkg.acl [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:10:02] ok, here for real now. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:10:19] adding Kevin to pkg.acl: +1 from me too [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:10:53] Here's some KDE 4 stuff I've done already: [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:10:54] http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php/Quarticurve?content=59884 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:10:58] http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php/Quarticurve-KWin+(for+KDE+3.90.1)?content=59972 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:11:04] Kevin_Kofler: but we should carefull when we commit the changes into CVD [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:11:09] s/CVD/CVS [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:11:23] Understood. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:11:50] About Quarticurve: The widget theme only needs Qt 4 and I'll submit it for review any time soon. The KWin theme needs KDE 4 to build, so kdebase 4 needs to get in first. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:12:34] Kevin_Kofler: it looks great :D [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:12:50] nice [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:13:04] we will include KDE4 in F8 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:13:39] Betreten XulChris hat den Kanal betreten (i=xulchris@adsl-75-15-193-164.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:13:45] other topics I'd like to hit today: [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:13:50] and try to get KDE4 beta in F8 test1 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:13:58] Kevin_Kofler: looks nice [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:14:18] 1. delegate jobs/authority, so we can all work and make progress, without stepping on each others' toes. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:14:23] Of course, I'm not asking for Quarticurve to become the default theme, I think some people out there would kill us for going back to the Bluecurve look by default. ;-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:14:29] Beenden XulChris hat den Server verlassen (Client Quit). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:14:43] 2. triage incoming bugs, plan of attack. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:15:02] 3. flesh out kde4 plan [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:15:14] any other topics? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:16:47] so we can start with topic 1 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:18:10] Beenden pingou hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:19:08] Betreten pingou hat den Kanal betreten (n=Pingou@haar197.athome221.wau.nl). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:22:46] Uhm, nothing to say about that topic? rdieter? Or let's move to the next one? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:24:07] afk (more phone) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:25:29] we will do 1 phone call meeting a month [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:25:33] Beenden mxcarron hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:25:49] i think Florian Laroche will arange it [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:26:07] ok, back, ugh. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:26:51] than: thanks, I think Kevin, Sebastian are ok with joining in on the phone call (yes?) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:27:09] Yes. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:27:13] yes [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:28:32] sure, both are welcome here ;-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:28:38] Beenden giallu hat den Server verlassen ("Leaving"). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:29:49] if we take a look at bugzilla, there're many bugs which need to be cleanup [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:30:37] afk again. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:31:40] it would be great if everyone could take a look at these and try to fix as you can [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:32:10] I wonder how many of those bugs will be fixed by KDE 4 anyway. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:32:39] Kevin_Kofler: it's good question :D [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:32:43] is there a "quick link" to the bug list? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:33:51] the most bugs are in kdebase/kdelibs. you can select the components in bugzilla [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:34:07] and you will get the list [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:34:09] ok [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:34:32] svahl: thanks [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:35:18] Kevin_Kofler: you have already packaged kde4 don't you? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:35:33] than: what have I done? :) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:35:42] Kevin_Kofler: where i can get the your srpm? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:35:54] I have only the 3 core components (kdelibs, kdepimlibs, kdebase). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:36:12] And I packaged them with a special prefix for parallel-installability, a hack which should not be needed in F8. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:36:14] ok, locked my door (no more interruptions... ) :) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:36:33] you means with prefix /opt/kde4? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:36:39] Right. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:36:52] oh it's bad [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:03] I know it's bad and it needs to go. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:20] But getting that out is easier than getting it in anyway. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:24] :-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:29] Kevin_Kofler: I've tried to package kde 3.90.1 in the normal prefix (based upon your srpms) it's building but the specs must really must be cleaned up [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:32] i will install kde3 in /usr [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:34] Zap the big parallel-installability patch. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:34] seems to me we first need to tackle the making of compat-kde3 pkgs first. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:37] s/kde3/kde4 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:37:56] Yes, this is the important thing to do. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:38:12] Then, making kde4 pkgs prefixed in /usr that don't conflict. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:38:17] rdieter: yes kde3 compat is needed at the same time [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:38:19] Moving the KDE 4 packages to /usr is the easy part, making KDE 3 compat packages which don't conflict with them is the hard part. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:38:20] yes, it's very important. we have to privode the kde3 compat libs [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:38:34] to allow old kde4 running [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:38:42] who want's to own the compat-kde3 task? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:38:50] My KDE 4 SRPMs are up here: http://apt.kde-redhat.org/apt/kde-redhat/all/SRPMS.unstable/ [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:39:19] than, Kevin? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:39:38] (I could try, but I'm not sure which parts to keep which to omit myself) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:39:39] i will take care of the compat-kde3 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:39:59] I can work on fixing prefixing issues in existing kde4 pkgs. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:40:19] Here's the plan which may need updating: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureKDE4 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:40:56] it's nice if someone could update the wiki pages there [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:40:58] One thing I didn't mention in the plan: We'll probably have to keep aRts around, as much as it sucks, there are certainly KDE 3 apps out there needing it. At least that one will not need special compat handling as it doesn't have a KDE 4 version at all. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:41:27] right, arts needs to be bundled with compat-kde3 stuff. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:41:40] Kevin_Kofler: does arts conflict with the new sound backend in KDE4? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:41:54] unless we want to try rebuilding everything --without-arts (ick) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:42:04] than: it shouldn't. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:42:14] arts could likely stay as-is. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:42:37] but i prefer build kde3 compat libs without support arts [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:42:55] than: if you can make that work reasonably, great. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:43:23] than: so legacy kde3 apps would have no sound? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:43:27] Beenden kital hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:43:28] The only thing aRts may cause conflicts on is sound devices. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:43:36] i think, we need kdelibs3/kdebase3 as compat libbrary [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:43:53] Kevin_Kofler: yes it's what i mean ;-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:44:26] But this shouldn't be a problem with hardware mixing or dmix, and if FeaturePulseAudio goes in, it won't be a problem either, because aRts can talk to ESD and PulseAudio can emulate ESD. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:44:31] i don't think we really need kdepim compat lib [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:45:03] So we'd just have to set aRts to speak the ESD protocol and it will work with PulseAudio. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:45:17] If they stay with dmix, we don't have to set anything at all, it handles mixing transparently. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:45:20] s/wiil/should/ :) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:45:57] It's true that I haven't done any testing, so I shouldn't be that positive. ;-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:46:10] anything else kde4-wise for now? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:46:14] I could try it out with the pulseaudio packages currently out there though. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:46:37] rdieter: which apps need the kdepim libs? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:46:47] than: none that I'm ware of. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:46:57] Then let's just not compat-package those. :-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:47:33] Kevin_Kofler: yes, i only need kdelibs3 and kdebase3 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:47:41] s/i/we [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:47:45] maybe we could run a repoquery or 2 to find out for sure. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:48:09] it's all what are needed to allow running of old kde3 apps [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:48:13] Speaking of Phonon directly speaking to PulseAudio, I think there's no way this will ever get implemented, for a simple reason: PulseAudio is only a sound server, it tries to be better at that than the older ones, but it's still nothing more (unlike aRts which tried to do decoding in the sound server). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:48:23] Phonon needs something which also handles decoding and video. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:48:43] So it can use Xine, GStreamer or NMM (but only Xine really works right now AFAIK). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:48:57] And those can then talk to PulseAudio or whatever after they decoded. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:49:25] (NMM is also a sound server type solution, but the other 2 can talk to any sound server.) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:49:25] looks like we'll have to tackle that later, after phonon gets shaken out a bit. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:50:35] can we move on? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:51:28] I'll take that as a yes... :) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:51:40] than: kde-3.5.7 status? kdepim builds? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:51:58] and where can I/we help? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:52:13] i'm still working on KDE-3.5.7 update for FC6/F7 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:52:43] I quick-n-dirty updated stuff that was still at 3.5.6 to 3.5.7 yesterday. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:52:52] ATM it's not possible to debug the build problem because i cannot access to ppc(64)machine [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:52:55] not much testing (tho I have stuff building in mock atm). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:53:10] Will this include KDevelop 3.4.1? We're still stuck at 3.3.6 which is pretty bad as 3.4.0 has been out for a while. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:53:14] than: I'd say add ExcludeArch: ppc64, and file bug for now [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:53:23] kdevelop-3.4.1, yes. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:53:35] And 3.4.x has support for stuff like Qt 4 and CMake. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:53:48] At least Qt 4, not sure about CMake. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:53:50] rdieter: we should avoid excludearch [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:54:05] than: what alternative do we have? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:54:06] i hope to get access to ppc machine tomorrow [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:54:12] so i can debug the problem [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:54:37] If you can fix it, great, otherwise ExcludeArch, file a bug and let David Woodhouse fix it. ;-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:54:47] The PPC arch team is pretty much just him AFAICT. ;-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:54:48] Kevin_Kofler: +1 [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:55:51] than: let David have a look at it, he's a ppc superman with a capital S. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:55:54] i know, just give a chance ;-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:56:19] we have a ppc machine here in stuttgart office [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:56:35] than: we've had 2+ weeks chance, and kde-3.5.7 is still waiting (mind you kdepim-3.5.6 builds failed similarly too). [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:56:49] but, ok, give it a shot, if you want. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:57:13] I think it silly to block on a platform/arch (ppc64) that nobody is using. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:57:43] i will try till thursday, if it's still have the build problem, i will exclude ppc [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:57:58] maybe even --disable-final may help (kdepim builds + --enable-final use lots of VM) [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:58:08] than: +1, good. [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:58:38] ppc64, you mean? [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:58:50] it's important that i get a access to the machice [Di Jun 12 2007] [18:59:04] Kevin_Kofler: yes, i think so [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:00:11] did you guys hit the bugzilla/triaging topic yet (while I was on the phone)? [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:00:30] any plan, other than "just do it"? [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:13] Betreten racor hat den Kanal betreten (n=rc040203@HSI-KBW-082-212-056-027.hsi.kabelbw.de). [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:28] rdieter: the most bugs are in kdelibs/kdebase, just select the components from bugzilla, get the list and try to fix what you can [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:33] Hi all [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:37] hi [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:41] hi [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:42] than: ok. [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:43] hi [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:46] * spot shakes his broom at the kde folks [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:01:53] get offa my lawn! [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:02:15] oh, forgot, ok, I guess we need to finish up. Thanks Than, Kevin, Sebastian (+ everyone I forgot). :) [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:02:35] yeah, we need to do "real work". ;) [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:02:50] howdy [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:04] * tibbs here [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:13] spot: did the terms for the fpc change ? [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:15] here (still) [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:24] * lutter is startled by real work [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:24] terms? [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:35] Betreten scop hat den Kanal betreten (n=scop@cs181043142.pp.htv.fi). [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:40] oh, no. i'm just poking fun at the kde sig. ;) [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:47] rdieter: Before I leave: is there still the KDE meeting at 2000 UTC? If not, let's remove it from the wiki. :-) [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:03:55] we dont actually do any real work in this meeting. [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:04:28] Kevin_Kofler: I'll be here for this week anyway, otherwise yeah, remove it (for now). [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:05:02] abadger1999: alive? [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:05:30] ok. well, lets get started [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:05:52] rdieter: your cmake writeup is the only pending item [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:05:55] Is there anything that needs full voting body? [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:05:57] is there an agenda? [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:05:58] * spot cracks the whip [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:06:00] I will need to leave early [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:06:01] spot: writup is done. [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:06:03] yes. there is. :) [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:06:12] rdieter: please take it off GuidelinesTodo [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:06:20] * rdieter thought he did... [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:06:28] i might have a cached copy [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:06:52] oops, didn't hit save. [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:06:59] ok, so the first issue is: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/ScriptletSnippetsFixes [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:07:37] The only improvement I can think of for that would be an example. [Di Jun 12 2007] [19:07:39] error Closing Link: dslb-088-070-002-115.pools.arcor-ip.net () *** Protokolldatei gestartet *** Datum: Di Jun 19 18:00:40 2007 [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:00:40] Betreten Sie haben den Kanal #fedora-meeting betreten (n=svahl@dslc-082-082-070-197.pools.arcor-ip.net). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:00:40] Topic Das Kanal-Topic lautet: "http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel -- Meetings often get logged -- see schedule in the wiki for next meeting". [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:00:40] Topic Das Topic wurde am 18.06.2007 20:06:14 von f13 gesetzt. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:00:40] Modus Kanalmodi: Keine Nachrichten von außen, Keine Farben erlaubt [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:00:40] Erstellt Kanal wurde erstellt am: 18.01.2007 20:10:56. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:00:56] Beenden Besniku hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:02:28] hi [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:02:46] Beenden wwoods hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:04:11] svahl: hi [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:04:45] Betreten Besniku hat den Kanal betreten (n=Besnik_B@87.203.199.241). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:05:03] KDE-3.57 is finally now available for FC6 and F7 update :) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:05:46] yeah. already noticed. my kmail imap-filtering is broken :) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:05:56] Kevin_Kofler: new redhat-artwork is still building in koji [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:06:27] Kevin_Kofler: it will be pushed in F7 update today [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:06:44] svahl: it's a known bug introduced in kde-3.5.7 [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:06:50] than: Unfortunately, there's 4 regressions in the KDE 3.5.7 update reported in the fedora-test-list already. 2 in kdepim and 2 (probably) in kdebase. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:07:03] One is the one svahl is talking about. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:07:06] There's 3 more. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:07:29] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-June/msg00664.html [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:07:31] Kevin_Kofler: could you please fill them in bugzilla? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:07:32] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-June/msg00665.html [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:07:35] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-June/msg00666.html [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:07:39] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-June/msg00668.html [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:07:57] Shouldn't the people who reported them do that? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:08:30] I will do that for my one later the day [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:08:59] i didn't see them in bugzilla yet [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:10:20] Beenden RedKarl hat den Server verlassen ("Reconnecting"). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:10:30] Betreten Karl_le_Rouge hat den Kanal betreten (n=RedKarl@ALyon-257-1-56-96.w90-15.abo.wanadoo.fr). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:11:13] btw: what should I/we do with bug #243611 ? KDE 3.5.7 doesn't fixed it (is kde already using /etc/xdg/autostart?) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:11:38] rdieter: Now that KDE 3.5.7 is in testing, the KOffice 1.6.3-3.fc7 update should be pushed to testing too. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:11:52] * than is looking at #243611 [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:12:09] oh, hello. (work is crazy today...) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:12:22] Kevin_Kofler: yes, will do. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:13:15] svahl: it seems it's not fixed in KDE 3.5.7. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:13:37] svahl: it should be fixed in next rebuild [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:14:00] than: patch? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:14:09] should I reassign it against kdebase? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:14:21] because it's not a livecd thing [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:14:28] svahl: imo, yes. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:14:37] svahl: yes please [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:14:47] * rdieter thinks we need buggbot in here... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:15:14] svahl: it should be kdelibs [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:15:21] ok [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:15:40] svahl: thanks [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:15:42] autostart should/is a kdebase thing, no? (how can you start a kde session w/o kdebase)? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:15:55] unless that functionaility really is in kdelibs... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:16:19] doesn't matter really, it all goes to the same place. :) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:16:20] rdieter: functionaility is in kdelibs [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:16:34] rdieter: not in kdebase [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:16:44] good to know. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:16:59] * than is pushing new redhat-artworks in F7 update testing [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:19:33] Betreten tibbs hat den Kanal betreten (n=tibbs@fedora/tibbs). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:21:51] this week's work report for rex: porting kde-3.5.7 to cvs devel/ branch, a little work on kde4 packaging (prefix issues). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:22:23] this week: finish kde4 cleanups, submit for review... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:23:57] So we really need to get this reviewed. Following the policies to the letter, you'd get away with only having the modules with a new package name (e.g. kdepimlibs) reviewed. ;-) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:24:03] than? I'd assume you've been busy, nothing on the compat-kde3 front? :) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:24:18] The first sentence should have been: "Do we really need to get this reviewed?" [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:24:25] Kevin_Kofler: good point. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:24:46] on one hand, wouldn't hurt, but I'd rather not wait either. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:24:47] i was too busy with KDE-3.5.7 update and RHEL update [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:25:07] Beenden Besniku hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:25:20] i will start to work kde 3.x compat this week [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:25:21] Speaking of reviews, anyone to review qt4-theme-quarticurve? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:25:30] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=244478 [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:25:33] Kevin_Kofler: i will do that [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:25:43] only new modules then, let's just make sure to all look over the new kde4 bits closely, so we get the equivalent of a new review... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:26:02] There's not much to review anyway, the package only installs one file and some documentation. :-) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:27:29] I have a proposal for an addition to kdelibs(3)... adding Provides: kdelibs3 = %{version}-%{release} (and maybe a similar thing for kdebase) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:27:47] now i have a appointment, unfortunately i have to go. I will be back later [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:27:50] Could help the kde3 -> kde4 transtion for kde3 apps. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:28:01] sorry guys! [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:28:11] it is still worth to put some kde3-artwork in fedora? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:28:48] svahl: probably not, the value will be less (ie, for legacy kde3 apps only). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:29:17] lifetime for f7 is one year from now [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:29:27] Currently, some apps include constructs like: Requires: kdelibs >= 3.5.6 [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:29:43] svahl: for F7, sure, F8, probably not. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:29:57] ok [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:30:11] pkgs using that construct would fail once we transition to kdelibs >= 4 [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:30:43] You'll still want KDE 3 themes to hopefully match your KDE 4 theme. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:31:01] so, any opposition to my adding the Provides: kdelibs3 to the kdelibs-3.5.x packaging now? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:31:16] (Unfortunately, the default Oxygen theme uses a lot of Qt 4 stuff, so it will not be backportable.) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:31:47] I think it's a good idea, but doing it in devel only won't be of much use. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:32:09] The provides is most needed in FC6 and F7. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:32:23] righto, my thoughts exactly. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:32:53] devel will be moving to kde4 soon anyway, right? :) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:33:47] Right, that's exactly why adding the Provides to the current KDE 3 packages in devel won't be of much use. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:34:41] well, my work flow for now (until kde4 arrives) is to introduce new/experimental stuff in devel/ first, and with a sanity check build done, backport to other branches... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:35:12] I'll nag Florian to arrange the promised phone conference call (including you guys) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:35:28] should nag him about coming to these meetings too... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:35:31] Beenden mxcarron hat den Server verlassen ("Quitte"). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:35:32] (re workflow) That makes sense. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:36:08] for kde-3.5.7, Than prefered working in the F-7/ branch first, drove me nuts, but I can deal. :) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:36:26] I've also seen other packagers work like than though and only commit to the F7 branch (and let dist-f8 inherit it from the pushed updates). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:37:20] With koji not auto-updating buildroots with newly built packags (in non-devel branches), that's slower going. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:37:51] rel-eng is considering changing that, tho. (it has confused a lot of people already) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:37:52] Yes, they'll only end up in dist-f8 once they're pushed to updates-final. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:38:28] Still, I see .fc7 packages showing up in the Rawhide reports. :-) [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:39:02] * rdieter shrugs, tagging policies, intricacies, implementation details fries his mind from time to time... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:39:29] ok, anything else worth discussing today? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:39:50] I'm not even sure that having dist-f8 inherit from updates is a good idea. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:40:41] It automatically avoids any upgrade path problems, but it is going to cause breakage as F7 and F8 diverge, at least for those packages which would have had broken upgrade paths otherwise (they'll have broken deps instead, sigh). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:40:50] It made sense during the merge, but now I'm not sure either. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:43:30] Nickname stickster_afk nennt sich jetzt stickster. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:44:20] done for today then? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:44:45] imho, yes [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:44:52] Ah, one last thing... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:45:28] We should probably start sending meeting summaries, link to logs to ml's, like other groups/SIGs, for more exposure, make sense? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:45:50] good idea [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:45:55] of course it's more work, but worthwhile... I'll make sure to do it this week. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:46:15] ok, that's all, for real this time. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:46:34] I actually did this with the first one. :-) I think that one is still missing from the wiki by the way, I'm going to add it now that I have wiki write access. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:47:14] very nice, then, thanks. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:48:05] If I have the time, I'll work to move the meeting info, logs, agenda's to it's own page... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:48:51] thanks all, meeting end. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:48:52] the 4 regressions should be fixed before we move it final. It would be great if you have time and could take a look at those. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:49:31] * rdieter nods, will take a look. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:49:38] the imap regression, revert the change will probably fix the problem [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:49:42] * svahl too [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:50:01] thanks guys :D [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:50:48] For the old meeting log, should I just link to https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg00663.html or should I attach it as a text file? [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:51:38] Betreten rwmjones_ hat den Kanal betreten (n=rjones@87.127.66.208). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:51:54] Pros/Cons to each... [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:52:49] hmm... how do other group/sig summaries do it? (not sure off the top of my head). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:54:04] logs should be attached to the wiki somewhere, regardless, imo. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:54:20] as most are now. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:54:34] the ambassadors are doing a great job, imho: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Meetings [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:55:06] Betreten thimm hat den Kanal betreten (n=thimm@p54BD723C.dip.t-dialin.net). [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:55:10] yeah, we could/should emulate that. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:56:41] I could try to help with that [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:56:56] svahl: thanks, much appreciated. [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:58:44] ok. see you next week [Di Jun 19 2007] [18:59:59] crime time? [Di Jun 19 2007] [19:02:49] I think so *** Protokolldatei gestartet *** Datum: Di Jun 26 17:58:34 2007 [Di Jun 26 2007] [17:58:34] Betreten Sie haben den Kanal #fedora-meeting betreten (n=svahl@dslb-088-070-010-141.pools.arcor-ip.net). [Di Jun 26 2007] [17:58:34] Topic Das Kanal-Topic lautet: "http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel -- Meetings often get logged -- see schedule in the wiki for next meeting". [Di Jun 26 2007] [17:58:34] Topic Das Topic wurde am 25.06.2007 19:50:04 von f13 gesetzt. [Di Jun 26 2007] [17:58:35] Modus Kanalmodi: Keine Nachrichten von außen, Keine Farben erlaubt [Di Jun 26 2007] [17:58:35] Erstellt Kanal wurde erstellt am: 18.01.2007 20:10:56. [Di Jun 26 2007] [17:59:22] :) [Di Jun 26 2007] [17:59:57] KDE SIG meeting start... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:00:25] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE - KDE SIG meeting - Init". [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:00:37] hi [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:01:02] Who's present? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:01:17] Present. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:01:26] present [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:02:03] * rdieter hopes than will poke in later... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:02:23] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf " http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE - KDE SIG meeting - KDE 3.5.7 update status". [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:03:02] That's a good one. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:03:05] looks like the kde-3.5.7 pkgs in updates-testing are pretty good, I see no show-stoppers... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:03:20] At least koffice and amarok updates are also depending on that one. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:03:28] fine for me since it was pushed to testing [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:03:30] yeah, so sooner = better [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:03:45] (The amarok package doesn't have it explicitly, but it fails with an unresolved symbol when installed on 3.5.6 apparently.) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:04:10] Kevin_Kofler: yeah, I think most kde pkgs will exhibit that behavior. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:04:38] Interestingly, the redhat-artwork-kde testing update which was also built against 3.5.7 works with 3.5.6 just fine. I guess the KWin API simply didn't change, they're keeping all the good stuff for 4.0. ;-) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:05:45] are we in agreement then (push to stable updates)? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:06:07] or any other kde-3.5.7 -related issues to discuss? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:06:16] i'd say yes [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:06:34] Betreten wolsni hat den Kanal betreten (n=cdw21@ip70-161-122-146.hr.hr.cox.net). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:06:36] kmail/kdepim is still broken in filtering imap: bug 244930 [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:06:44] bug the rest seems to be ok [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:07:00] i haven't hit anything out of the ordinary [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:07:22] svahl: bummer yes, but I don't think we can/should classify that as a release-blocker. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:08:12] well. ok [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:08:21] was https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=243505 ever looked into? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:08:27] but has anybody tried to revert the patch? (I'm not able to do so) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:08:34] There's also the Konsole taskbar grouping bug. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:08:34] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=244906 [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:08:40] And that clock applet issue, but I guess there's not much we can do about it anyway (other than keeping the bad settings forever). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:09:06] I can't duplicated bug #243505 , worksforme [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:09:43] I was told by Dan Walsh that the selinux issue there is mostly harmless, not the cause of the crash/issue. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:09:47] 253505 seems to be a bit better with 3.5.7 [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:11:08] kdm/XDMCP is still busted apparently, but i've got a hint/lead on the kde-redhat-users list that the cause may actually be arts. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:11:37] had a user build arts locally, then kdm/XDMCP started working... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:11:42] Betreten couf_ hat den Kanal betreten (n=bart@209.146-246-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:11:56] i could never sort was created the situation for 243505 to begin with, just that futzing with xfs 'fixed' it [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:12:08] s/was/what/ [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:12:22] I'd venture the real cause/problem was xfs, not kde/kdm. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:12:33] no doubt [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:12:58] Another issue with kdepim: the version in testing is outdated. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:13:12] It doesn't have the BR fix to get the new KitchenSync built. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:13:13] yeah, we want kdepim-3.5.7-3.fc7 [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:13:18] it began directly after an X update [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:13:34] I'll go submit that to bodhi after the meeting (than either forgot or is busy) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:13:55] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=218001 looks easy enough to fix [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:14:33] Betreten Harukaze hat den Kanal betreten (n=LinuxNT@48.Red-217-126-202.staticIP.rima-tde.net). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:15:14] Hrm, I wasn't CC'd on that one, yes, but I don't think it's worth of a separate update... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:15:35] maybe if push of kde-3.5.7 is delayed by 1-2 days (while we get in contact with than for status report), maybe... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:15:55] Beenden couf hat den Server verlassen (Nick collision from services.). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:16:00] and what to do with https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=238507 ? i've spoken with upstream a bit and they don't seem interested in following the spec. ever. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:16:03] Nickname couf_ nennt sich jetzt couf. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:16:19] really? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:16:50] The solution starts with "p" and ends with "atch". :-) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:17:14] right. that's me in comment #4 [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:17:33] But is there any good reason they aren't interested? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:17:54] depends on who you're talking to [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:18:03] who @ upstream said that? I need to go poking with a cluestick, but Kevin's right, they would certainly be more ammedable if we provided a working patch. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:18:22] i spoke with thiago [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:18:43] regardless, than was looking at it, said he was making progress last I heard. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:19:04] ew, don't think my cluestick will work on him. :) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:19:40] ok. as it stands right now, obviously we miss anything in $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS/autostart [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:20:24] and much of what's there is written with gnome in mind, behaving a bit oddly [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:20:45] As long as each camp will keep ignoring the specs they don't like, freedesktop.org will never fully work. :-( Just look at how GNOME still doesn't implement GenericName, when they even AGREED on that spec (it has signatories from GNOME too). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:20:53] Well, first things first, get autostart working, then bugzilla misbehaving items. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:21:06] Betreten couf_ hat den Kanal betreten (n=bart@fedora/couf). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:21:44] Kevin_Kofler: it's not GNOME, per se, it's fedora's desktop team. We need to get them interesting in working on the Packaging Guidelines, so we all playing by the same rules. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:21:47] Kevin_Kofler: yes. cp'ing GenericName to Name is teh suck [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:22:09] It's not just Fedora's desktop team, it's also that upstream GNOME completely ignores GenericName. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:22:25] yeah, not implemented [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:22:27] There's both technical and decisional problems there. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:23:28] Well, GenericName *is* "optional" in the fdo spec afterall... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:23:37] that's not an excuse to abuse Name= however. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:23:51] "and much of what's there [in the XDG autostart] is written with gnome in mind, behaving a bit oddly" -> Maybe that's why upstream KDE doesn't want to use it? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:23:53] but, we're going off on a tangent here, anything else on kde-3.5.7? :) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:24:41] Kevin_Kofler: I think straw meant of lot of what current packages drop into XDG_CONFIG_DIRS/autostart is gnome-centric, not that the spec is deficient (corrent me if I'm wrong). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:25:12] Beenden mxcarron hat den Server verlassen ("Quitte"). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:25:16] Yes, but it might be why KDE doesn't want to use it. That would be pretty short-sighted, but understandable. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:25:36] It might cause some strange behavior short-term. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:25:46] right. some only show an icon when in an active state [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:25:54] But long-term honoring the spec is certainly the right thing to do. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:26:16] Kevin_Kofler: i expect they don't use because they have someting in place already thet predates the spec [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:26:50] this is where most of the resistance comes from, imho [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:27:02] ... and they're not interested in taking time/effort to make it work, atm... if we do it for them (via working implementation/patch), that may change. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:27:19] Maybe it isn't too late for KDE 4.0. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:27:31] They did change the MIME type system to use shared-mime-info. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:27:33] definitely no [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:27:38] not* [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:28:14] can we agree that *we* should make the effort to make it work? (kde/upstream is free to ignore it... but I don't think they will) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:28:15] any patch would need to be carefully written, though [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:28:35] I agree that we should make the effort to make it work, yes. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:28:47] though in this case it'd be hard to break anything [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:29:05] Beenden fab hat den Server verlassen ("Leaving"). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:29:06] (Crossing fingers that there's not some broken autostart entries which assume all the world is GNOME in there though.) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:29:10] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE - KDE SIG meeting - XDG_CONFIG_DIRS/autostart, http://bugzilla.redhat.com/243611". [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:29:35] ok, move on? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:30:01] i wrote patches for Tango and the icon naming spec ages ago. i broke bin compat and hadn't the c++ skill to do it right [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:30:42] straw: they got integrated/cleaned up eventually, no? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:31:15] someone wrote much better patches which are included by us [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:31:33] most of that should be upstreamed now, afaik. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:31:40] no idea if they've been shown upstream [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:32:07] we're talking about kde tango patches here? (or something else)? If so, then yes, upstream = true. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:32:10] yeah, kde4 is fully with the icon naming spec now [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:32:20] yup [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:32:30] ok, speaking of kde4.... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:32:41] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf ""http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE - KDE SIG meeting - KDE4". [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:32:53] Here's some cleaned up kde4 specs... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:33:03] http://apt.kde-redhat.org/apt/kde-redhat/SOURCES/kdelibs4/ [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:33:13] http://apt.kde-redhat.org/apt/kde-redhat/SOURCES/kdepimlibs4/ [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:33:16] though i wouldn't be surprised if they didn't fully implement it (icon contexts) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:33:26] http://apt.kde-redhat.org/apt/kde-redhat/SOURCES/kdebase4/ [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:33:39] Some news from upstream: Beta 1 has been renamed Alpha 2, the API freeze has been pushed back a (pre)release. No other schedule changes, just one more alpha and one less beta. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:34:15] The application feature freeze was already set for what's now beta 1, so no changes there. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:34:17] Kevin_Kofler: thanks for the update (I knew that, but forgot that everyone else can't remind my mind...) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:34:24] Just the API freeze has been postponed to match. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:34:53] ah. it seemed like things were going quickly [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:35:42] i wondered how they could call the current state beta [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:36:05] I think the kde4home patches can probably go out entirely for F8. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:36:21] We do want the .kde directory to get upgraded with KDE 4 settings now. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:36:28] Kevin_Kofler: maybe not, remember we'll still have some kde3 apps... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:36:37] and things aren't forward compatible. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:36:55] Upstream claims having some KDE 3 apps should work, just not the same app as both KDE 3 and KDE 4 versions. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:37:04] kubuntu still/currently plans on using a separate .kde4-like thing too. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:37:12] I haven't been able to verify whether that's actually true or not though. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:37:32] Kevin_Kofler: if it works, great. maybe we won't have to worry about it. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:37:49] rdieter: whats the state of kde4 right now? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:37:50] The changes to have separate KDE4DIR/KDE4DIRS are definitely obsolete. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:38:00] Kevin_Kofler: agreed. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:38:25] dgilmore: hi, we're discussing that now. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:39:01] Whether the KDE4_FULL_SESSION hack can be dropped, I don't know. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:39:10] (Unfortunately, it's all lumped together in one big mega-search&replace patch right now.) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:39:10] the biggest thing with the new kde4 specs is that they're easily relocatable with %define _prefix ..foo... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:40:17] rdieter: any word on compat kde3 packages? so we could start using kde4 defaults where sane? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:40:33] Uhm, have you tried defining that to anything other than /usr? I tried using %{_prefix} so I could use the %cmake macro, but that was a big pile of worms, it ended up affecting %{_libdir} and thus the Qt 4 directories, and I think some other stuff too. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:40:52] dilgmore: than is working on that, dunno status, haven't heard from him recently. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:40:59] So I kept using my own prefix macro. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:41:28] Kevin_Kofler: I focused on making %_prefix = /usr, but it *should* work for other values now. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:41:42] not tested tho. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:41:54] I don't think it will. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:41:56] that's only as far as I got over the weekend... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:42:01] Kevin_Kofler: why? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:42:10] %{_prefix} is used all over the RPM macros. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:42:22] Kevin_Kofler: I know, and I'm pretty sure I cleaned all that up. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:42:23] So it affects stuff like %{_libdir} etc. too. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:42:23] :) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:42:48] Kevin_Kofler: I made great efforts to make sure that %_libdir and cmake's use of it was consistent. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:42:49] And that in turn messed up the Qt 4 dir IIRC. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:43:13] Kevin_Kofler: ew, didn't think about qt4... hmm... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:43:29] Kevin_Kofler: affects it how? _prefix gets ignored? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:43:32] Either way, I'm pretty sure it's fixable regardless. I'll double check after meeting. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:43:49] straw: some _qt4_* macros depend/on use %{_libdir} [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:43:56] ah [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:44:12] I prolly out to change the macros to probe pkg-config for proper values... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:44:14] I think there was another issue too, but I can't remember what it was. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:44:17] s/out/ought/ [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:44:31] Debuginfo possibly, or something like that. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:44:37] good thing was that I found a bug in the previous _qt_* macros... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:44:56] afk 2 mins... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:45:06] IMHO, setting %{_prefix} in a specfile is a bad idea. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:45:15] i agree [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:45:35] We should just have separate specfiles for the F <=7 developer preview and the F8 stuff. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:46:01] The F8 stuff should cleanly install into /usr with no ifs and buts, the developer preview stuff should just stay as it was IMHO. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:46:36] sounds good [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:47:04] but this will be complicated either way [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:47:55] yeah, compare pain: modify _prefix, make work with variance [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:48:02] or forked specfiles [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:48:18] IMHO forked specfiles are cleaner. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:48:20] I'm a unified specfile kind of guy myself. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:48:26] which is easier to throw away in the future [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:48:49] We might also want to have different kde4home patches if KDE4HOME can't be dropped for F8 completely. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:48:53] my background is supporting many distro/releases (@ kde-redhat), so that's where I'm coming from... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:49:00] One with the KDE4DIRS hacks and one without. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:49:12] Of course I could make the KDE4DIRS patch sit on top of the common one. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:49:34] And then we could conditionalize the KDE4DIRS one. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:49:37] Kevin_Kofler: I think we can probably omit the KDE4DIRS stuff (eventually). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:50:16] control everything via properly setting KDEDIRS depending on which environment you're in. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:50:22] limits mixing/matching tho. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:50:41] Right. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:50:41] that's something that need not be decided now, but (much) later. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:50:48] rdieter: im for one spec [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:51:29] dgilmore: me too, esp if I'm going to continue rebuilding/backporting for other releases @ kde-redhat. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:51:37] But KDE4DIR(S) will not be needed for F8 because it will just be /usr like KDEDIR(S). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:52:00] yup (yay) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:52:04] Beenden wolsni hat den Server verlassen ("Konversation terminated!"). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:52:33] KDE4HOME is really the issue, as I said, I hope upstream is right that it won't be needed. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:52:48] * rdieter nods [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:53:54] http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-alpha1.php [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:54:12] kubuntu only uses KDEDIR/KDEHOME currently [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:54:23] (no patching) [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:54:37] But that makes it a PITA to actually run KDE 4 apps in a KDE 3 session. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:54:44] I think we should follow-suit, for now. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:55:05] Kevin_Kofler: it's not *that* bad, just make a kde4 wrapper that sets the env properly. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:55:22] I think it's a very bad idea. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:55:27] ick [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:55:39] Run the KDE 4 Konqueror accidentally once and it will break your Konqueror settings for the KDE 3 one. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:55:40] it's not any worse than patching, imo. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:55:57] This is really only safe when we'll stop shipping the KDE 3 versions of KDE 4 applications. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:55:57] true. there's no clean way [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:56:07] Patching is the only safe solution. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:56:37] I just would rather not be spending time/effort on a patch that's likely not to be needed/used in f8. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:56:44] we have bigger fish to fry. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:56:49] I'll take care of it. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:57:08] It's mainly running KFileReplace, then reverting the false positives using Krusader and Kompare. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:57:27] I've done it for all the previous ones, I'll do it again for 3.90.2. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:57:35] ok. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:58:08] To be clear, once patched kde4 then uses only KDE4DIR(s)|KDE4HOME, ignoring KDEDIRS/KDEHOME? [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:58:20] Yes. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:58:35] Betreten racor hat den Kanal betreten (n=rc040203@HSI-KBW-082-212-056-027.hsi.kabelbw.de). [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:58:43] I really don't like that at all, but... [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:58:44] In Rawhide, I'd just say drop the patch completely, stop shipping kdebase 3 applications and only ship what makes sense to ship in a compat package. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:58:59] it may be the least-bad solution atm. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:59:07] Then upstream says we shouldn't have any problems sharing ".kde". [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:59:31] If users report problems, we'll have to work with upstream to fix them. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:59:42] That's what Rawhide testing is really for. [Di Jun 26 2007] [18:59:46] I'm still going to kick ass wrt to kde prefix, KDEDIRS/KDEHOME, parallel installability at akademy. [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:00:06] hm. i wonder if KDE 4 will hit the October target [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:00:25] The issue(s) seem to be important to kubuntu too, so maybe it can/will get enough attention to be fixed properly. [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:00:34] * f13 knocks at the door [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:00:40] * f13 looks at the clock (: [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:00:45] straw: kde rel team seems pretty confident. [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:00:51] brb, feeding annoying cat [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:01:07] ok, looks like we're out of time, and getting kicked out, thanks all! [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:01:08] I'd say we'll just ship whatever they have when we release otherwise. ;-) [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:01:13] rdieter: and what if they don't? [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:01:26] straw: we cross that bridge when we get to it. [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:01:53] straw: and I'm on the kde rel team, btw, so I can help nudge things our way if need be. [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:02:19] a major version update into F8 would be a no-no, i'd assume [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:02:33] But an RC->final one would be possible. [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:02:57] Topic rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel -- Meetings often get logged -- see schedule in the wiki for next meeting". [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:02:57] just playing devil's advocate :) [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:02:58] * svahl has to leave now. Please insert your summaryof this meeting in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2007-06-26 [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:03:17] Oh, and last week's log is missing in the wiki too! [Di Jun 26 2007] [19:03:27] svahl: We're out of time anyway. ;-)