[16:59] *** rdieter sets the channel topic to "KDE-SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-22 -- Init".
[17:01] <rdieter> kde sig meeting about to start, who's present today?  ping: Kevin_Kofler, svahl, than, ltinkl, kde*foo
[17:01] <Kevin_Kofler> Present.
[17:01] * spstarr_work watches
[17:01] <mefoster> I'm here this time
[17:02] <lvillani> can I participate as a "spectator"?
[17:02] <rdieter> lvillani: sure!
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[17:03] <lvillani> fine :)
[17:03] <rdieter> short-n-sweet agenda today, let's get started...
[17:03] *** rdieter sets the channel topic to "KDE-SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-22 -- recent security announcements on kde-packager".
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[17:03] <rdieter> topic 1: recent security announcements on kde-packager
[17:03] <Kevin_Kofler> ltinkl wanted to commit the patches, but CVS is still down for branching.
[17:03] <gbcox> Gerald Cox her
[17:03] <gbcox> e
[17:04] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: cvs should be good to now now.
[17:04] <rdieter> good to go now even
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[17:04] <ltinkl> re
[17:04] <Kevin_Kofler> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-April/msg01566.html
[17:04] <Kevin_Kofler> CVS is back up.
[17:04] <rdieter> ltinkl: so, you game to take care of the security patches, announcments?
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[17:05] <ltinkl> dunno what's been said to the topic already but I have the patches ready in my local CVS, just waiting for it to be open again for writing
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[17:06] <rdieter> ltinkl: I just committed something a few minutes ago, so go go go.
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[17:06] <ltinkl> ok, will do after the meeting
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[17:06] <ltinkl> lets move on
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[17:07] <rdieter> fyi, agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-22
[17:07] *** rdieter sets the channel topic to "KDE-SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-22 -- disabling/hiding "Zoom out" in Plasma desktop toolbox until 4.1? (request by mefoster, see also http://websvn.kde.org/?view=rev&revision=794496)".
[17:07] <rdieter> topic 2: disabling/hiding "Zoom out" in Plasma desktop toolbox until 4.1? (request by mefoster, see also http://websvn.kde.org/?view=rev&revision=794496)
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[17:07] <spstarr_work> that seems reasonable, the functionality is not ready yet
[17:07] <rdieter> and, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=443610
[17:07] <buggbot> Bug 443610: low, low, ---, Lukas Tinkl, ASSIGNED , RFE: disable "Zoom Out" button in corner
[17:08] <mefoster> We wouldn't be the only distro doing it ...
[17:08] <rdieter> any objections to this?
[17:08] <hansg> Erm, no FPC meeting yet, aren't the DST's synchronised again?
[17:08] <rdieter> otoh, this isn't a F9blocker, and I'd kinda rather this get sorted out upstream, but I can live with patching locally in the meantime.
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[17:09] <spstarr_work> rdieter: as a external patch?
[17:09] <Kevin_Kofler> Basically, zooming out doesn't work at all.
[17:09] <Kevin_Kofler> It would be just one line to disable it.
[17:09] <Kevin_Kofler> I don't think it will be actually fixed before 4.1.
[17:10] <rdieter> spstarr_work: yes, see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=443610
[17:10] <buggbot> Bug 443610: low, low, ---, Lukas Tinkl, ASSIGNED , RFE: disable "Zoom Out" button in corner
[17:10] <spstarr_work> you could always turn it on if that functionality gets backported, but i dont think theres going to be any backports anymore
[17:10] <spstarr_work> Plasma API is *broken* now :)
[17:10] <Kevin_Kofler> And once it's fixed, it'll still be backwards-incompatible.
[17:10] <spstarr_work> yeah
[17:10] <Kevin_Kofler> And backports are going to be less and less useful the closer 4.1 will come.
[17:10] <rdieter> ok, I see/hear no objections, so let's "just do it".
[17:10] <Kevin_Kofler> +1
[17:11] <mefoster> +1
[17:11] <spstarr_work> as an observer with no authority i'd say +1 :)
[17:12] <rdieter> alright, let's move on then.
[17:12] *** rdieter sets the channel topic to "KDE-SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-22 -- https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=443610".
[17:12] <rdieter> topic 3: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=443610
[17:12] <buggbot> Bug 443610: low, low, ---, Lukas Tinkl, ASSIGNED , RFE: disable "Zoom Out" button in corner
[17:12] <rdieter> oops
[17:13] <rdieter> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=443320
[17:13] <buggbot> Bug 443320: low, low, ---, X/OpenGL Maintenance List, ASSIGNED , Cannot enter keyboard input into kdm after logout
[17:13] *** rdieter sets the channel topic to "KDE-SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-22 -- https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=443320".
[17:13] <Kevin_Kofler> *** topic 3 has been marked as a duplicate of topic 2 ;-)
[17:13] <rdieter> just wanted to raise awareness here, looks bad.
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[17:14] <Kevin_Kofler> That KDM/keyboard bug is weird.
[17:14] <mefoster> I've seen that -- as I said in the bug, it looks like hitting ctrl-C once I'm logged in restarts X and all is good.
[17:14] <rdieter> any brainstorm ideas on ways we can help debug this?
[17:14] <mefoster> (I'm using the live image so can log in w/o password)
[17:14] <Kevin_Kofler> Ctrl-C shouldn't be restarting X...
[17:14] <mefoster> Yeah, no kidding!!
[17:14] <Kevin_Kofler> Looks like somehow the input goes to the terminal, not X11.
[17:15] <rdieter> not sure, can't switch to the console to confirm tho. :)
[17:15] <Kevin_Kofler> And X11 doesn't trap Ctrl-C because it normally handles keyboard events itself.
[17:15] <mefoster> I only discovered ctrl-C by accident. I don't know if it has an effect in KDM too.
[17:15] <mefoster> (Might be a red herring ...)
[17:15] <rdieter> I may try using gdm to see if the problem goes away or not. ??
[17:16] <Kevin_Kofler> Normally, Ctrl-C in a GUI context copies the selection to the clipboard.
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[17:17] <mefoster> I can test post-meeting to see whether I'm making this ctrl-C thing up or not, but I'm 99% confident it was reproduceable.
[17:18] <rdieter> mefoster: thx
[17:19] <rdieter> well, in the meantime, if we can nudge, bribe your local congressman, legislator, QA member, X maintainer, etc, the support would be appreciated.
[17:19] <rdieter> moving on...
[17:19] *** rdieter sets the channel topic to "KDE-SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-04-22 -- Open Discussion".
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[17:19] <rdieter> that's it for the agenda, open discussion.
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[17:20] <Kevin_Kofler> Now that the mass branch has happened, are we going to start importing 4.1 to F10?
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[17:20] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: good question.
[17:20] <lvillani> i have a question (I don't really know if some else asked the same).. what about making split packages for individual sub applications in kde 4.x ?
[17:20] <rdieter> imo, yes, we should do so at earliest convenience.
[17:20] <Kevin_Kofler> The latest snapshot appears to be 4.0.70: http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/kde/unstable/4.0.70/src/
[17:21] <rdieter> lvillani: that's a FAQ, sure, want to help with all the extra work to make it happen?  :)
[17:21] <lvillani> heh, it would be nice to do so
[17:21] <lvillani> :)
[17:21] <ltinkl> lvillani: that's a lot of work indeed :)
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[17:21] <rdieter> because, all kidding aside, it's a *lot* of work.
[17:21] <Kevin_Kofler> Split packages are going to multiply the maintenance workload by at least a factor of 5. :-(
[17:22] <rdieter> So, the status-quo is that we've only considered doing so in cases where the payoff is significant.
[17:22] <rdieter> lvillani: instead of suggesting doing so wholesale, do you have concrete examples where pkg split would be largely beneficial?
[17:23] <rdieter> and "would be nice" doesn't count. :)
[17:23] <lvillani> mhh let me think...
[17:24] <rdieter> lvillani: and, ever wonder why upstream kde doesn't release things split already? (hint, part of our motivation for status-quo is that we're following upstream here)
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[17:25] <rdieter> lvillani: well, we don't need an answer now, but if you have good ideas, feel free to bring them up anytime (here, #fedora-kde, or report RFE to bugzilla.redhat.com)
[17:25] <lvillani> rdieter, I think that kde modules are just a way to categorize a certain set of applications and libraries
[17:26] <rdieter> lvillani: yeah, that's part of it, monolithic tarballs have pros and cons, a serious con for pkg maintainers wanting split applications.
[17:26] <lvillani> for example: kdegraphics now contains okular, gwenvie, kamera, kcolorchooser and many other
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[17:27] <lvillani> it's just a categorization (graphical applications) of independent apps
[17:27] <lvillani> *gwenview* sorry
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[17:28] <lvillani> so my question is: "why install the whole module when I want to install only gwenview because, for instance, eog sucks?" :D
[17:29] <rdieter> counter that with: why not?  (disk is cheap you know)
[17:30] <rdieter> I understand where you're coming from, but we have to pick and choose how our time is best spent.
[17:30] <Kevin_Kofler> Split tarballs mean we have tons of packages, and usually all have their own version numbers, which I really dislike about GNOME and the new modular X11.
[17:30] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: pros and cons again. :)
[17:30] <Kevin_Kofler> With KDE-style monolithic tarballs, you know that something is part of 4.0.3.
[17:30] <Kevin_Kofler> With split tarballs, assuming you want the tarball to carry the actual version of the app, you don't.
[17:31] <Kevin_Kofler> And I think you do want that, otherwise it's going to be confusing.
[17:31] <lvillani> rdieter, "where you're coming from" (you mean debian?)
[17:31] <rdieter> "where you're coming from" -> split packages would be nice, but...
[17:31] <Kevin_Kofler> No, it's just an idiomatic expression.
[17:31] <lvillani> oh :)
[17:32] <Kevin_Kofler> "I see where your coming from" means approximately "I see what you mean" or "I see why you're suggesting that".
[17:32] <lvillani> Kevin_Kofler, heh English is not my native language :)
[17:32] <ltinkl> neither ours :)
[17:32] <Kevin_Kofler> And it's spelled "I see where you're coming from" actually. ;-)
[17:33] <lvillani> by the way, I understand your points, it was just a low low low priority RFE :)
[17:33] <rdieter> hee
[17:33] <rdieter> any other topics to discuss today?
[17:34] <ltinkl> you are right, in the ideal world this would be the best for users but given the current number of ppl we have, we can't afford it I'm afraid
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[17:35] <Kevin_Kofler> When importing 4.1, we'll want to skip at least kdewebdev, Quanta is still not ready. :-(
[17:35] <Kevin_Kofler> It's not in the 4.0.70 tarball at least.
[17:35] <rdieter> quanta is going to miss 4.1 too?
[17:36] <rdieter> If it will go in eventually, I'm ok with it missing temporarily.
[17:36] <rdieter> but if nothing else depends on it, I'm ok with temporarily skipping it too
[17:36] <Kevin_Kofler> I don't know what state KDevelop is in, it's in the snapshots, but that doesn't mean it will be in 4.1 judging from the kdepim 4.0 experience.
[17:37] <Kevin_Kofler> We'll need kdevplatform reviewed to upgrade kdevelop, it's new and it's a dependency of KDevelop and will be one of Quanta too.
[17:37] <rdieter> fun!
[17:37] <Kevin_Kofler> For kdewebdev, I think we should just stay with 3.5 until we have a kdewebdev 4 with Quanta.
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[17:40] <rdieter> ok, for now anyway.
[17:40] <rdieter> anything else for today (or can we end early)?
[17:41] <Kevin_Kofler> For kdevelop, I suggest we upgrade it, if it's not ready we can epoch bump and downgrade, it's not like Epoch 9 or 10 is going to make that big a difference. ;-)
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[17:41] <rdieter> nod
[17:44] <SMParrish> has anyone looked at this packagekit bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=443233 in regards to getting a KDE icon
[17:44] <buggbot> Bug 443233: low, low, ---, Robin Norwood, ASSIGNED , "Thinking" icon is a Gnome foot
[17:44] <SMParrish> Just seems strange to seen a gnome icon when using it
[17:45] <mefoster> Yeah, that's why I posted the bug
[17:45] <rdieter> what it would take to see if that icon is in the iconspec or not.  If not, packagekit should switch to something that is.
[17:46] <SMParrish> glad you did because I was going to
[17:46] <mefoster> It's an animated icon, I think ...
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[17:47] <rdieter> If it *is* in the spec, then it is oxygen simply lacking an icon.
[17:47] <Kevin_Kofler> Oxygen isn't even used for GTK+ apps.
[17:47] <Kevin_Kofler> They use either whatever gnome-settings-daemon tells them to use or whatever .gtkrc-2.0 tells them to use.
[17:48] <Kevin_Kofler> The latter is just "gnome" as a generic fallback.
[17:48] <rdieter> arg, all the xsettings crud again.
[17:49] <mefoster> Possible relevant mailing-list thread (haven't read through it): http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2007-July/008555.html
[17:50] <rdieter> getting xsettings-kde working under kde4 would be a start.
[17:50] <Kevin_Kofler> But the icons would also have to be actually added to Oxygen.
[17:51] <Kevin_Kofler> The xsettings issue is just part of it, the other half of the problem is that GNOME and KDE both have additional icons compared to the naming spec.
[17:52] <rdieter> Right, both problems need effort to solve.
[17:53] <rdieter> gnome isn't the only guilty party here, there's a lot of kde-specific stuff still used in kde4 and oxygen.
[17:53] <Kevin_Kofler> The problem with solving it is that both GNOME and KDE will be reluctant to add icons to their themes which their desktop isn't even using.
[17:54] <Kevin_Kofler> Even if it is in the spec. For example there's no edit-find-replace in Oxygen.
[17:54] <rdieter> I think both sides would be ok with supporting the existing spec, and would agree that not doing so would be considered a bug worth fixing.
[17:54] <SMParrish> Then maybe a feddora icon or something generic, just not a gnome foot
[17:55] <Kevin_Kofler> Honestly, I don't think this is a blocker and I also don't think we'll have a good solution for this problem in time for F9.
[17:55] <rdieter> SMParrish: that's all dependant on the icon-theme. (gtk's fallback theme in this case)
[17:55] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: +1
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[17:56] <mefoster> Yeah, it's more WTF than an actual problem
[17:56] <rdieter> mefoster: nod
[17:56] * SMParrish agrees
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[17:57] <rdieter> I've hinted at it before, but I'll get more serous soon... kde users should try using gnome-icon-theme, and gnome users try using oxygen-icon-theme, and everyone help report/fix the bugs.
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[17:58] <rdieter> or something even more crazy like making a common icon-theme that all DE's can use.
[17:58] <rdieter> both are frought with peril
[17:58] <Kevin_Kofler> Isn't that what Echo is supposed to be about?
[17:58] <jwb> or bluecurve?
[17:59] <Kevin_Kofler> Unfortunately, Echo is probably seriously broken in KDE. :-(
[17:59] <Kevin_Kofler> Bluecurve has the added advantage of working properly in KDE 3 too.
[17:59] <Kevin_Kofler> I fixed it up for KDE 4, so it shouldn't be completely broken.
[17:59] <Kevin_Kofler> But unfortunately people don't like it because they say it looks "outdated".
[18:00] <rdieter> right, echo is *still* horribly broken kde-wise.  folks have reported bugs, but without any kde-background/experience from folks working on echo, fixes have been glacially slow in coming
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[18:00] <Kevin_Kofler> It's also missing some icons it should have for KDE 4, like edit-select-all.
[18:00] <Kevin_Kofler> (It = Bluecurve, dunno about Echo)
[18:01] <rdieter> well, time's up folks, I *think* fpc is meeting today.
[18:01] <rdieter> KDE SIG meeting end