BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2008-Oct-07

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Contents

Bug Triage Meeting :: 2008-10-07

Attendees

  • jds2001
  • John5342
  • ke4qqq
  • poelcat
  • jlaska
  • mcepl
  • comphappy

NEW->ASSIGNED

  • Should we change the definition of transition to ASSIGNED?
  • Adding a keyword of Triaged seems to be the best alternative
  • Most attendees believe that this problem is not pervasive enough to change the established process
  • RESOLVED: revisit in a few months if this is really an issue

Greasemonkey Bugzilla Assist Scripts

FTBFS (Fails To Build From Source)

  • Auto-filed for packages that fail to build from source
  • Ask owner to automatically set new bugs in the following way so they do not need to be triaged
    1. Change state to ASSIGNED
    2. Revew comment text to make sure it is descriptive and explains what is happening
  • OWNER: jds2001 to close with mdomsch

FEver Bugs

  • Auto-filed for packages that have new versions upstream at SourceForge
  • http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/FEver
  • Ask owner to automatically set new bugs in the following way so they do not need to be triaged
    1. Change state to ASSIGNED
    2. Revew comment text to make sure it is descriptive and explains what is happening
    3. Add FutureFeature keyword
  • OWNER: poelcat

Topics for Next Week

  1. okay to triage your own bugs?
  2. How to create an organized effort to tackle growing list of new rawhide bugs: http://tinyurl.com/6llac8

IRC Transcript

poelcat who is here? 07:01
poelcat or did you already do that? :) 07:01
* jds2001 , John5342 ke4qqq 07:01
John5342 jds2001: beat me to it 07:02
poelcat should we wait for anyone else or get started? 07:02
jds2001 how bout comphappy? 07:02
jds2001 is he gonna be able to make it? 07:02
jds2001 ahh, there's mcepl :) 07:02
mcepl here I am 07:02
poelcat mcepl: hi! 07:02
mcepl hi 07:02
poelcat so first off, I reorganized and trimmed down this page 07:03
poelcat https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Meetings 07:03
* John5342 likes it 07:03
poelcat my personal goal is to do better meeting recaps for the next couple of months and see how that goes 07:03
poelcat including sending them to fedora-test-list after each meeting 07:04
* mcepl *really* likes it 07:04
poelcat after the new year I'd hope that someone else can take this over or help with them 07:04
jds2001 poelcat: sorry for giving you about a year's worth of raw irc logs from here :) 07:04
poelcat it doesn't take that long to do, but combined with everything else 07:04
poelcat it can be hard to be consistent 07:04
poelcat so i'm hoping that having another feedback loop the mailing list about what we are doing 07:05
jds2001 yeah, I think that the new arrangement is easier. 07:05
poelcat helps raise visibility, interest, etc. 07:05
John5342 poelcat: and as for the implied request for help in the long term i might be able to help out if nobody else steps up 07:05
poelcat John5342: i'll keep you in mind :) 07:05
mcepl just a note on NEW->ASSIGNED -- I don't think we should take it too seriously -- there is only one guy bitching, other people who really need it, can use ON_DEV or something. 07:05
jds2001 and the good news is that the list is about to be flooded with XO stuff :) 07:05
jds2001 so probably new folks coming in that may not have known about this before. 07:06
poelcat is that why #fedora-qa seems busier than usual? 07:06
comphappy my hope is that I can be ore active again once march rolls arround 07:06
jds2001 yeah, I think that's part of it. 07:06
poelcat mcepl: let's talk about that topic as it blocks a few things 07:06
poelcat comphappy: hi! 07:06
mcepl poelcat: and because people found out that it is better place to find out what's going on then be swamped by newbies on #fedora ? 07:06
poelcat lol 07:07
* John5342 googles for XO 07:07
mcepl poelcat: and of course, Fedora10Beta helps ... ;-) 07:07
poelcat John5342: OLPC 07:07
mcepl John5342: OLPC -- one laptop per child is called XO 07:07
John5342 thanks 07:07
comphappy poelcat: did you give that gs script a whirl 07:08
poelcat so how shall we resolve the NEW->ASSIGNED controversy 07:08
poelcat comphappy: let's cover that in a little bit 07:08
comphappy ok I got to take off in about 5 07:08
* jlaska arrives late 07:08
poelcat i'm willing to consider "Triaged" keyword 07:08
mcepl poelcat: my suggestion is stonewall it -- doing nothing. 07:08
mcepl -1 for a new keyword 07:08
poelcat mcepl: why is that? 07:09
mcepl see above -- too much work for nothing 07:09
* poelcat wants to make sure other teams feel like we want to help/work with them vs. get in the way 07:09
* comphappy agrees with mcepl 07:09
comphappy never seen a complaint about it until it was talked about on the ML 07:09
mcepl if there is anybody who has legitimate problems (like I was told by dm & al. and KDE people) there are possible solutions 07:10
poelcat mcepl: so are you suggesting continuing to triage everyone's bugs the same way? 07:10
mcepl yup 07:10
poelcat jlaska: hi 07:10
* John5342 believes that Triaged keyword is non-intrusive and can also be automated using the gs stuff but should still solve the issues. no matter how minor they are. 07:11
jds2001 hmm, i dont really want to give the sense of inflexibility 07:11
poelcat so i see a couple of roads.... 07:11
mcepl jds2001: there are just few trolls bitching ... don't feed them 07:11
poelcat 1) do nothing for 2 more months 07:11
poelcat 2) take a vote now 07:11
poelcat 3) ? 07:11
comphappy jds2001, but it is also just_another_thing 07:11
* mcepl votes for 1) 07:11
* comphappy 1 07:12
* poelcat +1 to 1) 07:12
poelcat ke4qqq: jlaska jds2001 ? 07:12
jds2001 +1 to 1. (but aren't we doing 2? :) ) 07:12
poelcat if you're at the meeting you have a "vote" :) 07:12
poelcat lol 07:12
* ke4qqq wonders if our minds will change in 2 months 07:12
poelcat ke4qqq: well we are kind of deciding not to decide 07:13
mcepl ke4qqq: we'll see whether there is a real problem, or whether it just settles down. 07:13
* poelcat waits for someone to quote the Rush song 07:13
* John5342 refuses to quote songs 07:13
comphappy poelcat, not to push the issue, but did you have any comments on that 07:13
* mcepl don't that many American songs ;-) 07:13
* poelcat meant voting as in vote on a different way to do it 07:13
mcepl *know 07:13
poelcat comphappy: i didn't know there was a new version 07:14
* mcepl understands, but maybe being a lawyer he has it too easy to distinguish between substantial and procedural votes ;-) 07:14
poelcat comphappy: link? 07:14
* comphappy got a warning for showing up late because of linux stuff yesterday 07:14
comphappy http://bashton.fedorapeople.org/bugzilla_buttons_for_fed.user.js 07:14
poelcat comphappy: its okay if you have to go... thanks for all your help! 07:15
comphappy code is not very clean right now, but I will fix that in the next week or so 07:15
poelcat comphappy: okay 07:15
comphappy but it seems to work 07:15
poelcat anymore thoughts/comments/votes on the current topic of NEW/ASSIGNED ? 07:16
comphappy i will keep my irc up while i get ready so just put your comments in 07:16
jlaska poelcat: so the consensus is to hold out until post F10? 07:17
poelcat jlaska: the only +1s are for keeping things they way they are 07:18
poelcat so i'll consider that concensus for now :) 07:18
jds2001 sounds good :) 07:19
mcepl comphappy: consider http://mcepl.fedorapeople.org/scripts/greasemonkey/redhat/bugzillaCopyOwnerToCC.user.js -- I seem to have some improvements in. 07:19
poelcat next topic... FTBFS 07:19
poelcat did we want to recommend/decide for sure that they auto-set those to ASSIGNED? 07:19
jds2001 I thought I told mdomsch to throw those in ASSIGNED, but come to think of it, there may have been some python-bugzilla thing that prevented him from doing that, not sure. 07:20
poelcat jds2001: i think it would have to be a followup action 07:20
mcepl poelcat: yes, the description should be more thorough and more emphasize that this is a Fedora action not some random whiner (which some maintainer tends to think), but otherwise, there is not much to triage. 07:20
poelcat because you can't start in ASSIGNED 07:20
mcepl poelcat: well, I don't care if they are filed as NEW and then automagically immediately switched to ASSIGNed. 07:21
jds2001 i think that's what I told him to do, and mentioned that there's a way to suppress the mail. 07:21
poelcat mcepl: i agree 07:22
jds2001 but this was many moons ago :) 07:22
jds2001 when he first started auto-filing bugs 07:22
poelcat does anyone else think we could be missing something by not triaging? 07:22
poelcat jds2001: could you followup with him? 07:22
jds2001 matt already doess something of a sanity check to make sure that rawhide wasn't busted that day, etc. 07:23
jds2001 sure. 07:23
mcepl jds2001: well, if he screws up, then bug triagers won't fix it. 07:23
poelcat any objections to a resolution of "FTBFS bugs should be auto-changed to ASSIGNED by Matt's script" ? 07:24
jds2001 (and mail suppressed on that action to save him from being endlessly flamed) 07:25
poelcat jds2001: good point 07:25
John5342 +1 for that resolution together with jds2001 comment. 07:25
jds2001 but I think that's really easy to do in python-bugzilla 07:26
poelcat any objections to said resolution? 07:26
mcepl +1 to take a second look at the text of the bug 07:26
mcepl s/\+1/& +/ 07:26
poelcat mcepl: lol that is not what the resolution is :) 07:26
poelcat mcepl: so you're voting -1 ? 07:26
mcepl no +1 07:27
jds2001 mcepl: you're a lawyere, you're out of order! :) 07:27
* poelcat brings the gavel down 07:27
* comphappy + 1 07:27
mcepl with comment "please, take a second look at the text of the FTBS bug" 07:27
poelcat mcepl: who? 07:27
mcepl Matt 07:27
poelcat what is he lookin at? that isn't clear to me 07:27
jds2001 just to make sure that the text is clear that this isn't some random Joe complaining 07:28
jds2001 and what will happen if it's not resolved, etc. 07:28
* poelcat is still confused 07:29
mcepl poelcat: don't worry 07:29
poelcat can someone state from the beginning what needs to happen? 07:29
poelcat otherwise we can't have clear minutes :) 07:29
* mcepl is quite certain that he shouldn't say anything 07:29
jds2001 sure, two things: 07:29
jds2001 1) Move to ASSIGNED automatically, supppressing mail 07:29
jds2001 2) Review the text of the bug that's filed for clarity to the maintainer. 07:30
poelcat shouldn't we be advisin Matt on #2 ? 07:30
poelcat or we just want to ask him to "be sure"  ? 07:30
poelcat that sounds funny to me, but oh well :) 07:30
jds2001 I can offer some advice, yeah 07:30
poelcat jds2001: thanks 07:31
poelcat okay next topic... a related one: FEver 07:31
poelcat do we want to vote on a similiar resolution for default bug filing behavior? 07:32
John5342 +1 to the same resolutions from me. 07:32
mcepl poelcat: "be sure" is better and mention my experience with Firefox guys who were ignoring FTBFS on seamonkey as "don't feed troll who doesn'ŧ know how to build" 07:32
poelcat e.g. ASSIGNED, FutureFeature, etc. ? 07:32
* poelcat was +1 for past resolution too 07:33
mcepl I am lost, what am I voting about now? 07:33
John5342 mcepl: FEver. at least thats what i just voted on 07:33
jds2001 FEver, the automated thing that files bugs about new releases. 07:34
jds2001 new upstream releases of packages, that is. 07:34
poelcat we talked about it here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2008-Sep-30#FEver_Bugs 07:34
poelcat wanted to close out the discussion 07:34
poelcat is there anything we want to add beyond asking them to autochange to ASSIGNED and add FutureFeature? 07:37
John5342 poelcat: presumably also supress mail from that one in the same way as the last issue 07:37
poelcat John5342: good point 07:38
mcepl +1 07:38
poelcat how about the text they are using? 07:38
jds2001 +1 here 07:38
jds2001 mcepl: i just looked at a FTBFS bug and it directs folks to a rather well-written wiki page. 07:38
mcepl do we have an example of the text? 07:38
mcepl jds2001: OK, so Martin is lazy. Oh well :( 07:39
John5342 mcepl: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=464491 07:41
buggbot Bug 464491: medium, medium, ---, wart@kobold.org, ASSIGNED, manaworld-0.0.26 is available 07:41
poelcat okay... any disagreement with recommending: 1) auto set to ASSIGNED 2) FutureFeature keyword, 3) suppress email? 07:42
poelcat otherwise i'll assume everyone is +1 to moving forward 07:42
jds2001 yep 07:42
John5342 +1 here 07:42
jds2001 +1 to moving forward, that is. 07:42
* poelcat +1 07:42
mcepl +1 07:43
poelcat the beast is growing again ... http://tinyurl.com/6llac8 07:43
poelcat (list of NEW rawhide bugs) 07:43
ke4qqq +1 07:43
poelcat should we have a "Bug day" or "Bug Week" or _________ ? 07:43
mcepl poelcat: yes, fighting with X & Gecko bugs and it is tough 07:43
poelcat i'd also encourage people to post triage questions with bz url to fedora-test-list 07:44
poelcat i got a lot of questions answered that way 07:44
poelcat best to group a bunch of them thought, rather than one email at a time :) 07:44
John5342 autosend all rawhideASSIGNED 07:46
John5342 oops 07:46
John5342 ignore me 07:46
poelcat should we have a "Bug day" or "Bug Week" or _________ ? Need some ideas and input here :) 07:50
poelcat beyond "yes" 07:50
jds2001 yes :) 07:51
mcepl yes (and thinking about the rest) 07:51
* poelcat hits jds2001 w/ the gavel 07:51
jds2001 So the problem that I see with em is what you and I had talked about. 07:51
jds2001 that a "go forth and triage" day isn't really productive of anyone's time. 07:51
poelcat mcepl: have you had any past success with them or other ideas we should try? 07:51
jds2001 I think that jlaska's test days have been quite the success, though. 07:51
jds2001 but that's focused and there are folks right there to help. 07:52
poelcat maybe he could come as a guest speaker and give a motivational talk? ;-) 07:52
mcepl poelcat: no (I haven't organized any yet) and I have no clue. Still thinking ... 07:52
mcepl I think that being focused might help -- "let's go and squash this beast" is much better than everybody wandering around for anybody to kill. 07:53
John5342 i agree with mcepl. easy to get a bulk session going with a target. not so much for in general. 07:54
mcepl and the beast must be smaller than "all NEW Rawhide bugs" ;-) 07:54
jlaska poelcat: you want a motivational talk from me? :) 07:54
poelcat shall we think more about this and discuss again next week? 07:55
poelcat jlaska: we aren't sure we can afford your rate, but you would get the free wireless headset mic 07:55
poelcat  ;-) 07:55
jlaska ha! 07:55
poelcat anything else we want to cover this week or add to next week's agenda? 07:56
mcepl please, all RH folks, bomb me with bugs in http://mcepl.fedorapeople.org/scripts/greasemonkey/redhat/bugzillaCopyOwnerToCC.user.js 07:57
ke4qqq  ? 07:58
jds2001 apparently that's a greasemonkey script that only works with RH employees 07:58
jds2001 (they see a slightly different view) 07:58
ke4qqq hey quick "process" question - is it ok to triage bugs you created, or should you not? 07:59
ke4qqq is there supposed to be separation? 07:59
mcepl ke4qqq: I rather don't do it. 07:59
* poelcat tends to triage my own... i never make mistakes ;-) 08:00
ke4qqq that tends to be my thought as well mcepl - but I hate the idea of someone else having to do it. 08:00
mcepl ke4qqq: triage two more additinoal bugs for every bug you file ;-) 08:01
poelcat let's revisit next week as we are at the hour mark 08:01
mcepl OK 08:01
ke4qqq k 08:02
poelcat thanks everyone for coming! 08:02
John5342 bye all. thanks 08:02
* poelcat will send out recap by tomorrow, earlier if weather permits 08:02
mcepl bye 08:03

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