BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Mar-31

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Contents

Bug Triage Meeting :: 2009-03-31

Attendees

  • adamw
  • poelcat
  • john5342
  • beland
  • mcpel
  • bashir
  • dash123
  • iarlyy
  • jds2001

Changing Meeting Time

  • Keep meeting time at present time and day
  • Seems this is the best time
  • See IRC log for discussion

Updating Wiki Pages

Next Meeting topics

IRC Transcript

poelcat hi everyone, who is here? 08:01
John5342 hi poelcat 08:01
poelcat John5342: howdy 08:01
John5342 welcome back 08:01
poelcat thanks 08:01
-!- Irssi: #fedora-meeting: Total of 142 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 141 normal] 08:01
poelcat mcepl: adamw beland jds2001 meeting ping 08:02
mcepl pong 08:02
poelcat who else am I forgetting? 08:02
adamw pongely 08:02
adamw any new folks? 08:02
adamw hmm, bsouid asked but doesn't seem to be around any more 08:03
beland Greetings 08:03
poelcat do we have enough people to discuss the new meeting time? 08:05
* poelcat sees that was unable to be resolved last week 08:05
beland If people cannot make the meeting because it is at a bad time, that's kind of expected. 08:06
John5342 if all the people who are here but havent actually announced their presence join in then yes i reckon we have enough people for a decision 08:06
poelcat beland: :) 08:06
* poelcat still isn't clear what is driving the need to change the time? 08:07
poelcat or has forgotten :) 08:07
poelcat anyone? 08:07
bashir hi 08:07
bashir im around but at work so coming and going 08:07
poelcat bashir: okay, thanks for coming 08:07
bashir no problem 08:07
* poelcat thinks we either need to decide today or kill this agenda item 08:08
bashir oh ya im bsouid 08:08
mcepl poelcat: as I said anything after now has -1 from me. 08:08
poelcat we've been tracking it for weeks 08:08
bashir i changed my nick to be just my first name 08:08
John5342 i think the biggest issue with meeting times is the time we nearly agreed on conflicts with another meeting 08:09
John5342 just about every other time left out a number of people 08:09
* jds2001 hereish sorry im late 08:10
poelcat John5342: what time was that? 08:10
dash123 sorry, gone for dinner 08:11
John5342 17:00UTC if i remember right although mcepl said he couldnt make that anyway 08:11
poelcat so it sounds like our current time is the best we've got? 08:11
John5342 having said that a few new people have added themselves in the matrix now 08:11
adamw i'm sorta with poelcat, we're burning cycles on this 08:12
John5342 i was never for or against the shift 08:13
adamw let's just say we're leaving it as-is for now and move on 08:14
poelcat anyone else on this topic before we move on? 08:14
poelcat adamw: +1 08:14
poelcat next topic.... 08:14
poelcat where are we at with the wiki page updates? 08:15
beland Well, some people have weighed in on some of the choices... 08:15
* poelcat isn't clear which ones still need feedback, etc. 08:15
* poelcat is behind on mail too :( 08:15
beland Adam said we need to talk to package maintainers about who decides what bugs should be upstreamed, but I'm not sure how to do that. 08:15
poelcat beland: are there a couple of pages we can focus on trying to move forward this week 08:16
poelcat  ? 08:16
beland (Trying to finalize https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/How_to_Triage ) 08:16
poelcat URLs ? 08:16
adamw there's several issues we really need input from the -devel group on 08:17
beland For "how to handle multiple bugs", the "Option 1" version on that page seems to have support, so I'll implement that unless anyone objects. 08:17
adamw how about this: i'll write up a draft of an email to the -devel list outlining the issues we need input on, and send it to -test list for you guys' approval, then send it to -devel list 08:17
poelcat adamw: sounds good 08:18
beland Sounds good. 08:18
poelcat i realize beland may not agree with me :)... 08:18
mcepl +1 08:18
poelcat but i think the page is tooooo long 08:18
poelcat and covers too many topics 08:18
beland We could put the NEW checklist on its own page. 08:18
poelcat i do think it has great content! 08:18
beland What would you like it to be called? 08:18
* poelcat thinks 08:19
adamw i'm not sure. i'm generally with you (poelcat) in liking small pages, but some long pages make sense 08:19
jds2001 poelcat and I went through this whole debate about a year or so ago. 08:19
John5342 +1 to the too long. content seems good but needs to be broken down into more manageble chunks 08:19
dash123 the page is long but i think it needs to be in one place... 08:19
adamw this is sort of like a policy document, and those don't get split into ten different one-paragraph pages 08:19
adamw it's a cohesive whole... 08:19
adamw still, i'm willing to be convinced otherwise :) 08:19
jds2001 problem being, and I agree, one wiki page should be on one topic. 08:19
iarlyy hi there 08:20
poelcat the title is "how to", but it is several different checklists, detailed instructions, and larger overviews :) 08:20
* jds2001 looks at the page in question......sorry 08:20
adamw heya iarly 08:20
adamw poelcat: yes, but you need all the material on that page to know how to triage a bug 08:20
poelcat hmm 08:20
iarlyy what are we talking about? 08:20
adamw iarlyy: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/How_to_Triage 08:20
iarlyy right 08:20
adamw iarlyy: whether it should be one page (as is now) or split into several 08:21
iarlyy right, looking now.. 08:21
beland Also, what color the font should be. 9) 08:21
mcepl +1 for keeping as it is (but I was a lawyer, so I am severely disqualified from judging what's normal) 08:21
poelcat maybe my brain works differently (probably does), but i see a page like that, read for about 5 seconds and decide "TMI I'll do something else" 08:21
jds2001 adamw: typically for me, if it's longer than one screen im not interested :) 08:21
jds2001 but I'm also ADD :D 08:21
beland How will you ever pay attention long enough to triage any bugs? 08:22
adamw maybe poelcat should do a draft of split pages for us to evaluate =) 08:22
poelcat lol 08:22
poelcat i already did :) 08:22
adamw mcepl: good lord, you've been hiding your dirty past from us 08:22
adamw UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN! 08:22
dash123 maybe add a brief summary of the page and add details in some pdf? 08:22
dash123 add-> change to a 08:23
mcepl adamw: no, I went through rehab and I abstine!!! Honestly!!! 08:23
beland PDF!?! 08:23
mcepl PDF? -100 08:24
jds2001 why would anyone want a PDF? 08:24
adamw yeah, no pdfs. 08:24
iarlyy yeah, no pdfs.+1 08:24
beland Well, the page can be split or merged later; we just need to get it in a state where it's better than what's there now. 08:24
* poelcat wonders if there are other projects we could look at to see how they do this? 08:25
beland I heard two votes for making "check your own NEEDINFO bugs 30 and 60 days later" and I don't do that. 08:25
adamw right, let's focus on the content for now 08:25
adamw poelcat: well, mandriva's is one long page, i know that cos I wrote it =) ubuntu should have a doc up somewhere too, don't know where off hand 08:25
beland making that mandatory, rather. 08:25
mcepl adamw, poelcat: shall we go through sections, one by one? 08:25
mcepl (in such case, section 1 +1 from me) 08:26
jds2001 +1 08:26
* dash123 also likes section one very much 08:26
poelcat +1 08:26
* jds2001 wants to plug the package review process. 08:26
jds2001 if you're a package maintainer, please do reviews! 08:27
poelcat one down, several to go :) 08:27
* jds2001 fails in that :) 08:27
mcepl concerning section 2,1) first line (request for new package) ... did anybody see such animal? 08:27
poelcat next section https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Beland/How_to_Triage#Checklist_for_NEW_Bug_Triage 08:27
mcepl +1 for package reviews 08:27
mcepl Keyword "Future Feature" should mean RAWHIDE, IMHO 08:28
John5342 jds2001: that plug was shameless and i fail too unfortunately. 08:28
mcepl and the last point (misconfiguration or honest NOTABUG) is by far the most imporant 08:28
mcepl (the first two could be ommitted or deemphasized somehow, IMHO) 08:28
mcepl point 2) IF IT IS RHEL, RUN AWAY, DON'T TOUCH IT!!! 08:29
mcepl and it is OK to throw a bug in better direction, somebody will pick it up 08:30
beland You want the third point in "1. Is this a bug?" to be first? 08:30
mcepl yes 08:31
* jds2001 could leave it either way 08:32
jds2001 but it's probably pretty common. 08:32
mcepl BTW, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/CorrectComponent is wrong ... you should check rpm -qif and then make component from Source RPM 08:32
beland Order changed. 08:33
jds2001 mcepl: looks right to me 08:33
beland It suggests rpm -qf and then rpm -qi in sequence, rather than at the same time. 08:34
jds2001 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/CorrectComponent#Which_component_is_it.3F 08:34
jds2001 oh, yeah 08:34
mcepl oh yes, but that's too long, just run rpm -qif $(which ssh) 08:34
beland Just to be easier for novices to handle, and to allow people who know the RPM but not the component to jump in there. 08:34
mcepl whatever 08:34
jds2001 -qif is more effeceint :) 08:34
mcepl back to the How to Triage 08:34
mcepl duplicates should be closed generally higher as a duplicate of lower bug number. 08:35
beland There's advice that this is wrong. 08:35
mcepl what? 08:35
jds2001 mcepl: nah 08:35
jds2001 mcepl: the one with more info lives 08:36
beland If the higher number has better description, then that would be lost. 08:36
beland Or need to be copied. 08:36
jds2001 are we on to section 2? 08:36
beland Yes. 08:36
jds2001 2.2 that is 08:36
beland Ah. 08:36
mcepl sorry, again my lawyer's past caught me (once lawyer, forever lawyer ... that's the same as alcoholics) ... when I say generally, it means a rule which expects to have exceptions. 08:36
beland 2.3, actually. 08:36
jds2001 oh, in 2.2 i dont like See ForbiddenItems for a list of proprietary software that is not shipped with Fedora. 08:37
beland Er, 2.0.3 08:37
jds2001 whereever it is :D 08:37
mcepl and I think the exception (better survives) must be really better. 08:37
beland jds2001: What is wrong with that? 08:37
mcepl but I don't want to fight it to death 08:37
jds2001 beland: it's not just propietary stuff 08:37
jds2001 it's patent-encumbered stuff as well. 08:38
jds2001 for instance there is a free mp3 codec out there 08:38
jds2001 but we cant ship it due to patents. 08:38
beland What word would you feel best describes it? 08:38
mcepl beland: yeah, remove word "proprietary" 08:38
mcepl ffmpeg is as open source as you can get it, but there is no freaking chance it would be in Fedora. 08:38
beland "is not shipped with Fedora for legal reasons?" 08:38
mcepl is not shipped in Fedora. Period 08:39
beland I think of patents as proprietaryness.. 08:39
beland No, ForbiddenItems are different from NewItemsWeLike 08:39
adamw intentionally not shipped in Fedora 08:39
adamw might be better wording 08:39
beland ButJustHaventPackagedYet 08:39
adamw to differentiate from Stuff That's Not In There Yet 08:39
mcepl that we caught already, no reason to return to that 08:39
mcepl but please add there somewhere a rule with big bold letters that Fedora volunteers should never ever touch RHEL bugs. 08:40
beland "proprietary" is gone. 08:40
adamw yes - in fact don't touch anything with a product other than 'Fedora' 08:41
beland I'll add a note to "Choose Bugs Wisely" 08:41
mcepl yes, please 08:41
beland Done. 08:42
poelcat how about reorganizing the overall page like this: 08:42
poelcat * 1 Preparing to Triage o 1.1 Choose Bugs Wisely o 1.2 Use the Best Tools o 1.3 Understand Bugzilla o 1.4 General Advice o 1.5 Easier Testing on Different Fedora Version 08:42
poelcat * 2 Choose a Checklist (put all on the same page--could get long, but all in one place) o 2.1 NEW Bug Triage o 2.2 EOL Bug Triage o 2.3 NEEDINFO Bug Triage 08:42
poelcat that didn't format well :( 08:43
* poelcat looks for pastebin 08:43
poelcat http://fpaste.org/paste/7456 08:43
poelcat IOW split the page into two.. w/ all checklists on a separate page 08:44
poelcat but with links to them from the "How To Triage" page 08:44
poelcat in section 2 08:44
mcepl poelcat: +1, but let's discuss the content in the current TOC, please 08:45
poelcat mcepl: okay, which point are we on? 08:45
mcepl Checklist for NEW bug triage, 2) ... I think we are done, but not sure 08:45
mcepl s/2/3/ 08:46
mcepl one more high-level general rule ... if you don't know, just make a comment, maintainer can fix it easily ... better than making mess in statuses, flags, etc. 08:46
mcepl paras 4-6) +1 08:48
beland Should you be bothering the developer with that, or asking other BugZappers? 08:48
mcepl yes, of course, ask on #fedora-bugzappers, but if there is no clear conclusion, or you don't feel certain, just make a comment. 08:48
mcepl (more important operation, more certain you have to be, of course -- don't CLOSE bugs unless you are 120% sure, you should do it) 08:49
iarlyy mcepl: it's very important 08:49
beland OK, I'll add a point in general advice... 08:49
mcepl any comments on 4-6)? 08:50
jds2001 looks good to me 08:50
mcepl (I expect 7) to be a struggle) 08:50
poelcat some of 7 seems a little too basic 08:51
poelcat and overly obvious 08:51
poelcat like "think before you click" 08:51
mcepl well, and the most important question is ... should we say (and I think we should) something like "If possible, try to reproduce!"? 08:51
beland For someone that's *never* done this before? 08:51
iarlyy poelcat: we have think in new bugzappers as well 08:52
adamw right. i think it's fine./ 08:52
beland The other half of the chorus says "Don't waste time trying to reproduce when there are a hundred other bugs to triage!" 08:52
adamw new triagers don't automatically know what the required information is. 08:52
poelcat then add another bullet telling people to drink plenty of liquids ;-) 08:52
beland Done. 08:52
beland 9) 08:52
poelcat and take regular breaks from the keyboard :) 08:53
adamw we'd best hurry up if we have anything else to cover, guys 08:53
adamw 8 minutes to go before the kde folks invade 08:53
mcepl oh, another general rule ... pick some fix component, learn it well, and don't just wade through bugzilla 08:53
poelcat what do people think of my page reorg suggestion? http://fpaste.org/paste/7456 08:53
jds2001 poelcat: +1 08:53
mcepl I think we cannot go through whole thing today 08:53
poelcat mcepl: we almost made it :) 08:54
beland mcepl: That's the gist of "Choose Bugs Wisely" 08:54
poelcat beland: does what i'm suggesting make sense ? 08:54
mcepl can point 12) be moved to 7) (or to separate page)? 08:54
adamw poelcat: i'd have to see it in action i think :) 08:54
poelcat basically move all the checklists to a separate page 08:55
poelcat and leave everything else on this page 08:55
poelcat a happy compromise? 08:55
John5342 +1 08:55
adamw i just don't see the...benefit...you're going to need to read the checklists if you're reading the page, and you're unlikely to ever want to read the checklists without reading the main page...are you? 08:56
jds2001 maybe for reference 08:56
mcepl could we, PLEASE, first go through content and only then do organization? 08:56
beland poelcat: The initial complaint was that there were too many pages to click through to find out how to do triage. 08:56
poelcat i'd assume that once you have the basic you aren't going to keep re-reading "general advice" ,etc. 08:56
mcepl 9) bugzappers should probably add only to *Target ... somebody will move it to Blocker if necessary. 08:57
poelcat but as you triage bugs you may work through the checklists multiple times 08:57
beland mcepl: The issue is whether reproduction is optional or mandatory. I do not think we have consensus to make it mandatory. 08:57
poelcat -1 to reproduction mandatory 08:57
mcepl 10) and 11) are not mutually exclusive. 08:57
beland (7) should reference (12), not "the next step" 08:57
beland What implies that 10 and 11 are mutually exclusive? 08:58
mcepl not, certainly not mandatory, but something around the lines of "suggested" or even "strongly suggested", "suggested, if you know how to do it" 08:58
poelcat beland: if everyone else thinks one big page is the way to go I can support it 08:58
jds2001 here come the KDE folks :) 08:58
mcepl nothing, just to emphasize that many many times I have "EasyFix Patch" 08:58
poelcat in the 1 min remaining... what are important topics we should cover next week or on the mailing list this week? 08:59
mcepl I would get rid of the CLOSED/ERRATA advices ... that's whole another business of closing bugs. 08:59
beland https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers:meeting-agenda-list 08:59
adamw and - triage day in #fedora-bugzappers next 08:59
poelcat beland: thanks for all your work on this page, i know trying to assimilate all that stuff can be tedious 09:00
adamw i shall be away for a half hour or so, then back for triage day 09:00
poelcat okay. thanks everyone! 09:00
beland It's not hard; it would just go faster if people came more prepared to the meeting. 09:00
mcepl one more generale advice (in bold letters) COMMUNICATE WITH MAINTAINERS!!! 09:00
poelcat beland: would you be interested in helping to create the agendas or reminders before the meetings? 09:01
* poelcat is juggling more and more other things these days 09:01
beland (moving to #fedora-bugzappers) 09:01
mcepl beland: Camino???? where do we have it in Fedora 09:02
mcepl sorry, moving to #fedora-bugzappers 09:02

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