Extras/SteeringCommittee/Meeting-20070614

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Contents

2007 June 14 FESCo Meeting

Members

Present

  • Brian Pepple (bpepple)
  • Jason Tibbitts (tibbs)
  • Jesse Keating (f13)
  • Toshio Kuratomi (abadger1999)
  • Bill Nottingham (notting)
  • Kevin Fenzi (nirik)
  • Dennis Gilmore (dgilmore)
  • Jeremy Katz (jeremy)
  • Tom Callaway (spot)
  • Rex Dieter (rdieter)
  • Christian Iseli (c4chris)
  • Warren Togami (warren)

Absent

  • Josh Boyer (jwb)


Summary

Upgrade path enforcement

Secondary Arches

  • Long discussion of secondary arches. spot is going to take the suggestions from the discussion and modify his proposal, and we'll revisit this next week.

Merge Reviews

  • Long discussion on whether to make the completion of the former core packages reviews a feature for F8. There are approx. 700+ packages in the queue, and it's debatable if it's a realistic goal for them to be completed by F8 test 2. The discussion will be taken to the mailing list to get community members opinions on a reasonable way to get this task completed.

F8 Schedule

Misc

  • jeremy is currently working on the documentation for package building with koji/bohdi that will be put on the wiki.

Log

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<h1>IRC.log</h1>
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<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">FESCo meeting ping -- abadger1999, bpepple, c4chris, dgilmore, f13, jeremy, jwb, notting, rdieter, spot, nirik, tibbs, warren</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Hi everybody; who's around?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* notting is here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> nirik is here. </td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> rdieter will be here shortly.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot is here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> warren here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> abadger1999 here</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> blizzard is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Ok, looks like most folks are here, so we can go ahead and start.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Any objection to this week's report from FPC at <a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2007-June/msg00506.html">https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2007-June/msg00506.html</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">everyone get a chance to read tibbs summary?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I'm really sorry about getting the minutes out late.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: np, I know how tough it can be to get the summaries out.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">looks fine to me... +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">I'm here.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1. Looks good to me also.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">looks ok</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* c4chris here now</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">will be good to get those ocaml packages moving in the review queue.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">We need to work with rpm-maint to get the ocaml dependency generators into rpm-build.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> For some definition of "we", probably not all of fesco.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">+1, looks fine</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">there was rumor of a rpm update in the next few weeks. Wonder if you could get it in that...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: since the summary got out late, do you mind if we wait a day before FESCo approval so that members not here got time to make any objections known. (not that I expect any).</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I don't mind at all.  Normally you'd get at least 24 hours.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> The bylines say that FESCo gets until next week if so desired.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Of course, nothing will change until the next FPC meeting anyway.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: cool.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> alright, we can probably move on then.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">So if anyone has any objections or issues, please let me know.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: thanks.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- Upgrade path enforcement <a href="https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-June/msg01603.html">https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-June/msg01603.html</a> - f13</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: you want to lead this one?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">+a lot from me. I see no reason to allow broken upgrade path's...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">oh yeah.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> so...</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> basically rel-eng felt that it was reasonable to have policy on always having an upgrade path to follow.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> always, but with reasonable exceptions for dire needs</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (of which should be few)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">sounds quite reasonable to me</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">So is the idea that this should always be in effect, or just after test1 or 2?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">This is just talking EVR, right? not that all upgrades have to work perfectly all the time?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">nirik: correct, we're just talking NEVR.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> tibbs: always.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> tibbs: we felt that we could reasonably do it always so long as we could make exceptions for exterordinary cases.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> extraordinary that is</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (maybe)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I don't know, I kind of like the idea of rawhide getting to be rawhide for a while, but I can see the simplicity of always enforcing the rule.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">so the rawhide push script(s) will need to refuse to push broken packages, and bodhi will need to refuse to push broken update packages, right?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">well...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">It's not easy to get bodhi to do that.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">we're just talking policy right now.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* jeremy is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">enforcement of that policy is going to be somewhat difficult.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> and will require more tools, but for now, just policy and keeping an eye on things and correcting those that go astray</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: +1 to NEVR proposal</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">At least when there's a policy you can legitimately complain when someone transgresses.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">yeah.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">and policy allows for tools to be created.  Tools without policy is a bit difficult (:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">policy, +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">So +1 from me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">+1 from me, obviously</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I welcome our new epoch>0 overlords.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">+1 here also.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">We'll have to figure out where to document this policy too.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 needs lots of help with figuring out /where/ to write crud up</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">(I think there is a topic about this later today)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: definitely, that's something we should discuss later today.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">fedora-devel-announce :-P</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144"><a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Policy">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Policy</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">c4chris: that's a one time thing, we need perminent(ish) record.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">f13: sure, that was a bit of a joke...</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but it should be announced there nevertheless</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">indeed</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">I also feel like rawhide should get to be rawhide but I think that's just conservatism :-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I note for the record that ttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Policy/WhoIsAllowedToModifyWhichPackages needs updating.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">yea, we like it when the game gets a bit rough too :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">abadger1999: I have some thoughts on that, crack addled thoughts that need more clarity, but something interesting ot think about.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (rawerhide)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">+1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">jeremy: did you want to note anything for the record?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> perhaps better articulate the exception grant we want?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">I don't think so</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* dgilmore is here</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, I don't see anyone giving a '-1', so f13 consider your proposal approved.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">k</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I'll add it to my growing pile of wiki edits that need to be done.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">anything else, or should we move on?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">so perhaps Policy/UpgradePath</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: sounds good.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- Secondary Arches - spot</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">oh kay.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* lennert hides</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">wooo!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">hehe</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">so i've slightly revised the original draft</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> mostly just cleanups for formatting</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: I jus thave a few comments?  nothing large</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">when?  I just loaded and read it at the start of the meeting.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I have one comment as well that I saw so far</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">but i also removed the list of "suggested" primary/secondary arches</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> and i added the mandates from the Fedora Board meeting earlier in the week</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TomCallaway/SecondaryArchitectures">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TomCallaway/SecondaryArchitectures</a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik reads</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">as always, comments and feedback are welcomed, as long as they're not condescending.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (i may be an idiot, but i don't usually like to be told it in email)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">spot: oh, that takes the fun out of it. ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: you suck!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">spot: so, the only thing I noticed (so far) is that the secondary arch build system perhaps need not be accessable by the internet, but needs to be able to access the internet.  I had hoped that it could be a one-way communication with upstream koji</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> a pull rather than a push.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">f13: ok, you need to talk to mbonnet</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: here come notes</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">spot: will do.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: primary arch responsibilities probably need to include that every packager is responsible to make sure that they build on all of them</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 wonders if Ralf has read this yet (speaking of being called an idiot)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: I didn't see that spelled out</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">spot: maybe explain how secondary arch builds are done (queued based on successful primary arch builds)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: 2. why three team members?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">blizzard: *nod* i had assumed people know that, i can document it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: i.e. not sure if it's more than just lennart for arm, as an example</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot: probably a good idea to document it</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot: but 1 maintainer that's awesome is good even if 3 gives us more coverage</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: just wondering if that's just so there's a team in place</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">blizzard: i chose three as an arbitrary number, because I know from experience that one man arch teams are doomed to fail (or at least, endlessly drag on... )</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: just want to be more flexible about numbers esp. at the beginning of an arch</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">maybe instead of 3 /people/ it could be 3 /roles/</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> if one person fills more than one role that's fine.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: we want health, but it's usually one man to get things started</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (or woman!)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">i really think we need to ensure that maintainer teams aren't just one person</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">lennert</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">if secondary arch support is done in a way that doesn't negatively affect primary archs, it shouldn't really matter, should it?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">those sorts of teams are not healthy</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: agreed, maybe we should put that logic in there</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">so, i said three.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">the "what if he gets hit by a bus" syndrom.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">lennert</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">i.e. then it's mostly a question of "is this port too crap to be called Fedora?"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">so what is the criteria to become a secondary arch? perhaps we should mention that you need to have a fair bit of stuff already up before you can be considered a secondary arch?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">rdieter: then the secondary arch wasn't really important in the first place!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">rdieter: this is volunteer work, after all</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">ah, that touches on something that /is/ missing.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> What does it take to get a secondary arch "downgraded" if you will</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">voted off the island?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">to '/dev/null' ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">we've chatted about some criteria, but nothing is documented IIRC</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">"if you miss two releases you're re-evaluated by fesco"</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> it's in there</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 sees it now</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">blizzard: there's an implied contract that if the maintainer for something relevant goes AWOL for a released fedora that *someone* will poke it along. i don't think we can imply that for secondary arches if the sole maintainer goes away</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">notting: then it goes away</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> notting: it happens</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">wuld that not be enough to satisfy the one man job thing?  If your one man/woman can't get it done, they get dropped, or find more people?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">Then comes the tertiary arch proposal.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">blizzard: and the users are so horribly boned</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">notting: I understand we need health here, just wondering how we put it in better words</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">warren: please no.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">I just think we want to strongly encourage via a minimal bar some level of team effort</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">notting: something like "start with one with measurable growth over the first year"</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> notting: it takes time to build teams</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">lennert</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">f13: if the arch team is doing a bad job, the number of people doesn't really matter?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">I'm really not convinced that one man arch teams will ever succeed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">lennert</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #57a657">f13: i.e. you can have a 20-man arch team that still does a bad job</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">lennert: sure</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">right, nobody is saying that.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: so lennart is willing to tackle arm, it's not clear that there are other people there, does that mean we shouldn't let him start it up and see who shows up?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">so what is the critera for a new arch to become a secondary arch? or am I missing that on the page?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: remember the old rule: be prepared to do 50% of it on your own and then other people start showing up</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">nirik: as it stands now?  3 people, a build server, some disk space...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: we need to allow one man teams to bootstrap</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot: very important</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">nirik: right now, its some buildservers, disk space, and 3 people.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple tends to agree with blizzard.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">so...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">ok, thats a pretty low bar...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">perhaps you can start with one, but you can't make a "release" until you have more than one?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: who started the sparc port?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot: three guys all at once?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">blizzard: technically, Red Hat.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">haha</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">but I'd also note that it took me three years.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">spin up with one, have up to 2 years to make a release, if nobody else shows up to make the release, no harm no foul?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> no release without more than 1 ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">yeah, it's not clear what we're trying to prevent</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> broken promises?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> bad releases?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> bad press?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> angry users?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">it *is* a secondary arch, afterall.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: well, then we'll just have the architecture team of lennart and his brother pedro</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I think it might be better to have a higher tech bar before becoming a secondary arch...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">remember for ARM the users are the developers</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> not a lot of end users there</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">blizzard: if that's the case, then why would it be hard to find a second person to help out lennert ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">like working glibc, kernel, something? or proof of concept rebuild of all packages? or ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">f13: because most of the time we have to have a project underway and noticed to get help</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">we can eliminate the arch team size restriction. we can always add it later if needed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">nirik: well, I don't know if you can be called a "secondary arch" utnil you make a release.  Perhaps a secondary arch in training?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">f13: also a place to do it, hence letting him work in our infrastructure</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">spot: +1, I'm of a mind, to try to be as flexible and with as few rules as possible initially, and just see how things go.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">this is about growing communities of interested people</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">nirik: the working buildsystem implies a lot of this</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">not about hosting already established projects</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I assume sparc will be the first to the party? perhaps we can do that and see what needs to be adjusted after that?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">but i think if you spend two releases following rawhide and never actually get to a release, we should have the ability to say 'um, no... come back later when you're ready'</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">notting: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">I'm ok with dropping the restriction, since we have the ability to add it later if it becomes a problem.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">nirik: yes, sparc is almost certainly number one, followed by arm.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">it's a race!</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> rawr!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">so, let me do this.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">*cough* ppc</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 ducks</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">i'll make some changes based on suggested comments</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">nirik: right now sparc will probably be first very closley followed by arm and ia64  probably also alpha</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">and we'll revisit this next week</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: I have other comments :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">spot: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #b15db1">kmacleod</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #b15db1">re. "small system secondary arches" (arm?) does it have to be a full release or only the subset of supported packages?  (the latter seems to be implied above but it should be stated)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">hrm.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">is the OLPC processor x86? or another arch?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">blizzard: email them to me?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> or the list?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">i think I'd be OK with a small subset</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">f13: once sparc is up we can do ppc ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">nirik: x86</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: which list?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot: -maintainers or -devel?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">nirik: it's an amd geode</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">blizzard: f**ked if I know.  I can't keep track. all of them.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">heh</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">just do -devel</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">devel would have a bigger audience.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">down with -maintinaers!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">blizzard: and possibly even a way to demote secondary arch *releases* if people aren't maintaining them</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">f13: there will be two way communication between build systems  so secondary arch hubs need to be publicly accesable</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">dgilmore: but does there /have/ to be.  That sounds very much like a restriction put in place by an implimentation detail, one that could be reworked/revisited.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (discussion for another time/channel)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">we should probably carry this discussion over to the mailing list, since we've got other topics still to cover today.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">f13: well we would also want to make newly built packages available for testing</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> f13: there are many reasons why it should be public</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">/should/</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> however I hope to make use of this secondary arch stuff for other perhaps skunkworks projects</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #539e9e">spot</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #539e9e">bpepple: ok, we're done for now. next item?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">spot: thanks.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- Owner to write up some docs of our brave new world. - jeremy</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik off topically wonders if we couldn't do a EPEL build with centos with this. ;) </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">f13: i hope to do it in a way so RH can do ia64 s390 etc  and not need to send anything back</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> nirik: we could</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">f13: skunkworks? working on the 6510 port?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">dgilmore: 'not send anything back' sounds like 1-way communication to me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: I haven't had a chance to read your draft yet.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">f13: there are cases for 1 way and 2 way</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> f13: both will need to be supported</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">dgilmore: ok, then the draft should change from /must/ to /should/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">bpepple: it's not really done.  and I don't know that it's really much action for us other than "we need to have this doc", I'm going to work on it and drive it and I'd love to get feedback from people who are going through the process</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> bpepple: I originally put it on the schedule to try and talk someone else into it, but decided that I might as well spend some time on it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: cool.  this does sort of dove-tail into the bigger issue of the wiki not being current.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> and how can we fix it.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">yeah</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">and it fits in well with the change-control form I hope t ocreate this week</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: agreed. that's one way we can fix it for the future. </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #a25555">blizzard</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #a25555">spot: mail sent to -devel about feedback</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">so is there much to talk about on this subject, other than jeremy thank you very much and we cant wait to see some initial work so we can provide feedback?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">don't think so at this point.  I'm going to hopefully get some help with the docs folks on it as well.  and then we can maybe get them to help with other pages</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* spot needs to cut out early today... *runs away*</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: that sounds good.  maybe we can send a call out for help on the mailing lists also.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">bpepple: yeah, once it's more done, I'm going to send a call out for people to try to follow it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">since there are probably things which seem obvious to me that are less so</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: cool.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ok, we probably move on then.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- Merge Reviews for F8 target - all</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">bpepple: i think that we must get them done by then  or they will drag out forever</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yeah, this fun topic</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">Teeth or no teeth. that is the question.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">dgilmore: agreed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">Are we agreed upon... fedora-review+ for APPROVED, CLOSED when it is checked in, built and tested?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">are we up to the challange of making this a Feature for Fedora 8 and letting poelcat beat the drum on it?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">fun + teeth = profit!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">warren: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">warren: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">warren: 'tested' ?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> define tested.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">f13, don't throw it over the wall.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">do we have the resources to do it?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">yes, should be a f8 target I think... but should be done before the later tests.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">f13, sanity test</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> "does it work at all?"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">f13: im good with poelcat working on it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">notting: I don't know that it's really possible to get them all done.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">warren: it's rawhide, the very definition is pretty much "throw it over the wall" (:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">isn't sanity test part of the review process anyway?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">With compliant maintainers, perhaps.  But I have merge reviews in needinfo for three months now.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">tibbs: as i mentioned in the mail, saying the maintainer has completed the review doesn't help if it hasn't started :/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: do you know approximately how many are left for review?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">these are packages already in the collection, so I think if the review can be approved, and the package built, I'm OK with closing.  It can always be reopened, or actual bugs filed for what happend.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">bpepple: about 750.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: ouch, that's a lot.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">tibbs: roughly how many of those are in-progres?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">None of them.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> Unless folks aren't setting fedora-review ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">theres around 50 in progress</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">tibbs: some were likely starting before use of fedora ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">s/some/most/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">oh, more than that... 83.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">well, maybe more like some</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Not really, nirik went in and cleaned up most of those.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">still, is it a fair statement that the majority of uncompleted reviews are reviews that haven't started yet?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">733 pending it looks like.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">yes.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">I'm stuck with a runaway reviewer.  I got some review done, and then the reviewer went away, how do you fix that?  reset flags?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">218 approved.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">notting: probably.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">f13: AWOL policy covers this.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 will have to read.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13: yes, awol reviewer, drop 'em, look for someone else.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">problem is that we have few reviewers, and those we do have get discouraged when the maintainer never answers...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">so, the issue here is that it's a task that requires a significant application of effort. do we have as a project resources we can direct in this fashion, without compromising the process?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">nirik: This goes back to the "teeth" question, I think.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: will get better if review is mandated by FESCo, hopefully.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">yeah..</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">teeth, pointy-sticks for the rest.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">can we truly say 'fesco mandates this' and hope that reviewers show up?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">although do they care? if it's not reviewed, whats the problem? Someone will have to deal with it before release or just let it slip</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">The fundamental issue is that our reviewers are occupied just keeping the review queue steady.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">that will realistically just lead to fesco having to clean up the mess</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting: maybe more like a goal, rather than mandate. :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I've had no time for reviews this week and the queue size has started creeping back up.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">rdieter: was a goal for f7 too</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">It was an unrealistic goal for F7.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">we're serious this time. :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">notting: at some point we have to say if this is not reviewed it gets dropped</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> though glibc gcc and kernel  are kinda hard to drop</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">notting: I think the only way we can get this finished is to draw a line in the sand, be that F8 or F9.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">dgilmore: yeah, but some packages (like rpm, kernel) are kinda needed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">and when "this" is the kernel or glibc or gcc ...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">dgilmore: but that's punishing the maintainer for a reviewer not showing up?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">notting: not really</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">notting: maintainers are reviewers</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting: if something is important, folks will work harder to *find* reviewers.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik reviewed rpm... no response from maintainer. </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I made a promise to take care of xorg-drv-* once ajax finishes his cleanups to them, but then he got busy with something else.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #adad5b">dgilmore</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #adad5b">nirik: ive found nasrat is like that at times</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">That's like 60 packages.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">rdieter: i asked for a maintainer quietly for a month or two for something, and didn't get one until i caught tibbs on irc on the right night :/</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> s/maintainer/reviewer/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">the problem with the review is that it really needs two people who have the time at the same time</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting: I've experienced that too, I don't think that's an excuse not to try.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">because the package is going ot continue to get modified for other reasons, it can't sit there unchanged until a review is complete, unlike new packages.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">That's just how it goes, though.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> The problem is when it gets modified but doesn't incorporate review suggestions.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">So, the big question is: Do we want this as a feature for F8?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* c4chris would like we show some teeth to maintainers that do not answer to reviewers</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">But that's up to Red Hat folks.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> So, RH folks, what kind of teeth are possible?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">tibbs: *that's* the case i want teeth for. i'm willing to let 'no one has actually reviewed this at all yet' slide</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">we need a good carrot or a good stick...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">Policy: imo: review by F8, else dropped.  (hopefully rare) exceptions can be considered (by rel-eng, FESCo, whoever).</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">yea, we need someone with a pointy stick located close to them</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">jeremy, ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">notting: +1.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">that's going to have to be by test2</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> the feature freeze, which is also the drop the package freeze IIRC</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">How about "if it's under review" it must be approved for f8... if it's not yet reviwed it can wait for f9?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">nirik: +1, with the obvious caveats of 'review started at 11:55 on freeze date' doesn't count ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">nirik: won't that discourage new reviews?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">nirik: I kind of agree; we may need to stage this in.  Because I just don't know how much time I'll be able to devote to this.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">bpepple: might encourage them if people know that it will have to get fixed by f8.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">before we do anything serious with teeth, we absolutely have to clean up any documentation around the process</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> f13 fabian_a Foolish fab</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">or else we're going to get what happened last time.  A lot of confusion, a lot of frustration, and a lot of giveups until the process could be clarified.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">yeah, will need to be 'if it's under review by a week before f8 test2 freeze' or something.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: agreed. we've been bitten too many time by that.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">the process has been stable for a while. It's just unfortunate that it changed right around when the merge reviews came in</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">"if it's under review by a week before f8 test2 freeze" doesn't seem right to me.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">warren: counter proposal?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">nirik: whether or not it's stable, the documentation has to be rock solid.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">"under review" is a meaningless distinction</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">BTW, test2 is like two months away.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">warren: no, it means a reviewer showed up but the maintainer didn't act on it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">tibbs: yeah, I'm a little concerned that we don't have nearly enough time for that many reviews.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">why? I just want us to make some progress... I don't think we can do them all, but if we can at least do the ones where someone did a review, thats progress...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">We could just arbitrarily pick some packages and require that they be reviewed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">Why reviews must be done before test2?  why not test3?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">if we need to yank a package it has to be done before feature freeze...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Maybe we just do one package per maintainer or something.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">warren: test2 is the feature freeze, where we would drop packages.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">or maybe a set number of packages reviews?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">bpepple, who is responsible to act?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">s/reviews/reviewed/</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> warren: you mean who owns this topic?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">for me, any policy without teeth is useless, and useless is anything less than "all reviews done before f8t2, or dropped".  it's as simple as that.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">so I think we all agree that we can't do them all... we need to come up with a way to do part of them over time until we are done... whatever that is...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: disagree, why not set a high goal?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">rdieter: I don't think we can do that... what about things that don't have a reviewer by that time?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">bpepple, no, if you say "50% of merge reviews" must be done, then that only gives an excuse for a maintainer to think 'somebody else will do it'</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">we can lower our goal/expectations later, if need be.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but I'd rather not, of course.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">warren: I'm not sure.  I just think that it's unlikely we'll be able to finish all of them in the F8 timeframe.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">i think it's unlikely too given the already short runway</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I would like to do something to motivate folks to review, but have it be a reasonable goal.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I'm going to say that it's not possible to review them all before F8.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik agrees with tibbs. </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Perhaps we can start with packages in @base or something?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: but you just did!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">tibbs: now there's an idea.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">rdieter: did what?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: said it's not possible:  "I don't think we can do th"</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">f13: Do sponsored packagers within Red Hat want to review -- or do they already feel like they have enough work?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">abadger1999, you don't need to be sponsored to be a reviewer.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">rdieter: I was agreeing with tibbs saying "it it's not possible to review them all before F8."...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">abadger1999: That is happening now to some extent.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">oh wait</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> sponsors... nevermind</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: my bad, I misread.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">abadger1999: I suspect there would be some pickup, but not a huge amount</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">abadger1999: there has been some trading of reviews, but not a lot.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> abadger1999: mostly it's people waiting around for somebody to get to their merge review.  no real effort is out there to trade reviews to get things done.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">k... because we've tried to be good about trading reviews in pre-merge Extras.  That's probably the only way to pick up enough reviewers to finish by F8.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">tibbs, agreed that it is not possible to review everything before test2.  OTOH, there is no simple way to define a half-way point.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">I really think we can make this happen, but not without kicking some serous butt to get there.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I wish I could get paid to review or something.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">Consultants :-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">we do have some interns....</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">named asok?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">well, so not sure we are going to solve anything here...discuss options on list? or ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">I'll be quiet then, I seem to be the only one.  Obviously the more merge reviews, the better.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">nirik: agreed, we should take this to the list.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">-list.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> er +1 to list.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">I vote for a retroactive bounty on reviews.  $100.  I expect my check next week.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: which one? fel or devel?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">rdieter: I did a bunch, but it's discouraging when none of them respond. Makes you feel like they don't care or it doesn't matter to them.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">yea.  maybe that wakes up some vocations :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">rdieter: I feel your pain, but I'm not willing to just drop half the distro because package reviews didn't get done.  That hurts the user and helps nobody.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">tibbs: +1. ;) The a/c on my truck just died, I could use the money. ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">bpepple: maybe -devel and that will get more people interested in reviewing (:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">Proposal: Generate a report on maintainers who fail to respond to NEEDINFO.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: then bring the dead-beats to FESCo to poke.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Can we at least have a RH contact person we can bounce stalled reviews to?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">warren: public shaming... I like it. ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: sounds good.  I'll try to send something out either tonight or tomorrow.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">It can be easily argued that they are failing in their job responsibilities if they fail to respond to a review NEEDINFO.  We can sic their managers upon them.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">tibbs: you have the sponsor.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> tibbs: you should use the sponsor of the person who's review has stalled.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* poelcat can try too</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">wolfy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5fb4b4">warren: what should be put at needinfo for , say <a href="https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225255">https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225255</a> ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">f13: But that doesn't really help when the sponsor is a non-RH person.  What can we do?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13: we can make exceptions to dropped packages, if they're really that important.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">wolfy, ASSIGN to reviewer, NEEDINFO on the owner because they are expected to act.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Or, to ask the other question, what do I do when someone comes to me because someone I sponsored isn't responding?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">wolfy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5fb4b4">there is no owner</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">wolfy: it should be in the first comment ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">tibbs: what you'd do for anybody else.  Lets not try and create more RH vs the world issues here.  Treat them like maintainers, who have a sponsor.  IF the sponsor is unable to bring about something, FESCo.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">wolfy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5fb4b4">c4chris: should be but is not</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">wolfy, mbarabas@redhat.com is the current owner.  You can lookup owners in /cvs/pkgs/owners/owners.list</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">rdieter: not sure of the logic. unreviewed gnome-terminal is still >> reviewed perl-Tree-Simple-VisitorFactory</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">wolfy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5fb4b4">warren: thank you</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">rdieter: I really don't want to try and deem 'really important' vs 'important' because it'll mean different things to each of the 20 people you ask.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">f13: But the issue isn't RH vs. world, it's "package is already in the distro; review doesn't matter".</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">rdieter: and removing software that users rely on solely because of stalled reviews hurts the user community more than it helps the package quality</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13: if it's important, people care => reviews.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">why not bring the exceptions/no response up for a vote here?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">rdieter: just not that simple.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">Proposal: Start with a report of maintainers who fail to respond to NEEDINFO in a review.  This is a simple beginning.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13: it should be.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">warren: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">rdieter: yes, and software should be perfect, and we shouldn't have any bugs, and...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">warren: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">There are more steps to this, but this itself is a good starting point.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">warren: +1, sounds fine with.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13: it's like secondardy archs, if nobody steps/up cares, they go away.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">Do we have a simple way to query if they haven't responded to NEEDINFO in X days?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">yes</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> don't make me break out the msf scripts</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">msf?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">notting: they didn't work the last time I tried them ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">c4chris: mike fulbright. he had a variety of bz-querying-things, including a page that would determine what bugs were in needinfo for how long</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> jeremy: well, phooey</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">k</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">needinfo has changed too</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, we're running late, and should probaby start to wrap up the meeting.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">I could add that check in my script too I guess</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">c4chris: BTW, are you counting merge reviews in the review count in your status script?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">tibbs: I think yes, but I'll check to be sure</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">Yes, I think you are.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">anything else follks need to discuss before calling it quits today?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">schedule?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* c4chris says wrap</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">notting: ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">finalizing the fedora 8 schedule</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">is there wiki page on "merge reviews"? i'm not finding one</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">poelcat: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/PackageReviewStatus/">http://fedoraproject.org/PackageReviewStatus/</a> and follow to NEW</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">poelcat: They're not really any different than other reviews.  They show up in <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/PackageReviewStatus/NEW.html">http://fedoraproject.org/PackageReviewStatus/NEW.html</a> with the rest of them.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">yes, we really really really need to get the schedule finalized.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> like /yesterday/</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">reference: <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/Schedule">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/Schedule</a></td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">f13: agreed.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">per discussion on the list, problems with this schedule:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> 1) KDE 4 - the final freeze is the week before KDE 4 final avail</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">argh</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> there's a gnome conflict too</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> but i can't find the @$**@ mail</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> ah</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> the test3 freeze is a few days *before* the gnome 2.20 final release</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">I think we need to kick it out a week, if not more</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">right.  although, the gnome tarballs are usually ready prior to the actual release</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">both of these would be solved by moving the schedules out 1-2 weeks, at least for test3/final</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">I think the kde ones are as well.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">nirik: +1, ditto for kde.  no biggie.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I'm fine with kicking it back a week or so.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">2 weeks sound fine</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">nirik: correct</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">yea, but it's a matter of if upstream will get 'annoyed' if stuff leaks early</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">notting: the gnome tarballs are available for everyone and it's deifnitely not a problem on that front</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik is glad Xfce is such a slow moving target. :) </td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> jeremy worries about pushing back too much due to the risk of further slippage hitting thanksgiving and then the rest of the doom and gloom</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">since it's all going to be public builds, public cvs, public tarballs</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">that would give a release time around Nov. 14th or so, which is before the holiday rush.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">bpepple: that's two weeks. do we want to schedule one week or two?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I'm fine with either.  one week would probably be safer in case we slip at all.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">is one week enough for KDE?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">oh, also also: if we slip the *whole* schedule 1-2 weeks, that lands the test1 release composition/pushing time right smack in the middle of fudcon</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">rock.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* jeremy somewhat thinks we should stick with where we are and then if we have to reassess a little later, so be it</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">notting: which is why we need to decide schedule /now/ before max finalizes dates.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">jeremy: big +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">jeremy: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">because he picked dates based on a guess at the schedule.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">well, the devel *freeze* is october 17th</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: +1 with sticking with what we got.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">as the current schedule reads, the test3 (last public test release) freeze is before kde even goes into a final freeze</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">so I don't know if we can actually accomodate KDE at all</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">which is kinda icky</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">as we need them to be in some sort of freeze by test2</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> when is KDE's feature freeze?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">our test2+1 week == kde4 beta3</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* f13 reads schedule</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">f13: Sep 23</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">rdieter: ?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> the kde4 schedule says feature commits freeze on july 25</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">everyone has been talking about a "stricter schedule for F8"... what does this really mean if we are already contemplating 1 or 2 week slip?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">and july 20 is their string freeze</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">sorry.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">poelcat: we're not slipping, we haven't even defined the schedule yet!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">poelcat: the schedule isn't set to be "strict" with</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> poelcat: we're trying to define the schedule to be strict about.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">poelcat: the schedule right now is covered in the word draft :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">but the board said they want a 10/31 release?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">poelcat: they wanted a 'near the end of october' release.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">poelcat: the board makes a recommendation, fesco uses that as an input as well as all feature-y things and then we run something up, get a final stamp and voila</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">seven-eleven is not bad... might even get sponsored some :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">except, well, we don't have the featury things</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">right.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">notting: details ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">so, maybe keep test1 where it is, push out test2 by a week?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> (and thus test3/final)?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> I'm happy with more time between test1 and the feature freeze.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">i mean, if kde4 slips, we're going to have to punt it *no matter what schedule we pick*, but i think if we go 1-2 weeks later, we'll be able to better accommodate them releasing on time</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">f13: might be a reasonable approach</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">punting will be very hard if kde4 betas are in devel/rawhide.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik welcomes mr epoch</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">hard, but not impossible.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">nirik: let's go back to that upgrade path discussion ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">andthis may be one of those exceptions to the epoch</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">(and for anyone watching from the peanut gallery -- this is the way schedules get decided and have always been decided :-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">nod.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">I think f13's proposal sounds good.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">jeremy: "always decided" != "always good" :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">so, proposal on the table. vote A) to keep the as-on-wiki schedule B) to move out test2/3/final by a week C) to choose something else?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* nirik doesn't much care... although a halloween release would have been fun to name. ;) </td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">B +1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* notting votes B</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">B +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">B: +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">poelcat: I'm just trying to help with the transparency factor :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">B +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">(at least this time we have others to blame for the schedule issues (: )</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">A +1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple does think a Halloween release would be cool though. ;)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">We can always come out ahead of schedule, I guess.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">nirik</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #854685">A +1 (for now, with the idea we revisit before test1 and see if it needs changing at that point)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">dgilmore: jwb_gone: rdieter: spot: nirik: tibbs: warren: abadger1999: ?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #97974f">abadger1999</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #97974f">B +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">B +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">rdieter</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4d4d93">notting: I voted (B).</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">ok, i'm blind</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">A =1</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> oops</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> A +1</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">so far it's 7-B to 3-A.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> spot's gone btw.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">7 is hard to beat with 13 members...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">c4chris: correct.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">My reasoning is that it's better to give us slack up front rather than having to formally slip later.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">oh wait</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> This wouldn't slip Test1 at all?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">warren: correct</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">warren: right</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">only test 2/3/final</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #5959a9">warren</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #5959a9">B +1 then</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">ok, 8-B to 2-A.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">ok, 8-2. i think we can claim that f13's 'B' proposal carries?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">this might be too crazy, but what about "fixing" the whole thing by changing F8 to an even shorter release... 9/30 giving KDE, etc. plenty of time to bake for F9</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">poelcat: like waistlines, schedules always go out, never pull in</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">poelcat: too crazy ;-)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">poelcat: my ulcer just gave you the finger (:</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">poelcat</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #42427e">i thought Fedora was innovative?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">tibbs</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #818144">poelcat: By that reasoning, we could just respin F7 and call it F8.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">yeah, looks like B proposal carries.  so let's just send it off to the board for final annointment and we can make it official</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* poelcat must have crossed the line</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">poelcat: there's a minimum lenght of time to realistically do a release</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">poelcat: that's just a little too quickly to do anything reasonable with F8 other than just respin with f7 updates.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">jeremy: agreed. do you want to notify the board?</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">jeremy</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #9b519b">bpepple: sure!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">cool.  ok, anything else or should we wrap up the meeting?</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* c4chris needs to run...</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #8c4a4a">notting</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #8c4a4a">sorry about making it run this late</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">notting: no no, it was good to get that decided.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">notting: no worries. we needed to decide that.</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">c4chris</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #4b904b">notting: bring cookies next time :)</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">f13</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #488888">ok, must run.  Cheers!</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">Ok.  time to end this.</td></tr>
<tr><td class="action" colspan="3">* bpepple will end the meeting in 60</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> bpepple will end the meeting in 30</td></tr>
<tr><td class="other" colspan="3"> bpepple will end the meeting in 15</td></tr>
<tr><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">bpepple</th><td class="text" colspan="2" style="color: #407a40">-- MARK -- Meeting End</td></tr>
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