FedoraSummit/SummitIRCLog

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14:15 <         f13> | *yawn*  time to start the day
14:23 <      glezos> | f13, it's a nice day to start, no? :)
14:23 <      glezos> | s/nice/fun
14:37 <      glezos> | off to work
14:37            <-- | glezos has quit ("Leaving")
14:46            --> | jwb (Josh Boyer) [n=jwboyer@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
14:50            --> | Lovechild (David Nielsen) [n=david@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
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15:45            <-- | sankarshan has quit ("/me goes off to take a break")
15:50            --> | quaid (Karsten Wade) [n=quaid@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
15:51            --> | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
15:54 <         jwb> | f13, starting soon?
15:55              * | smooge has come to the Cabal meeting representing the Gnomes of Sandia
15:56              * | thl googles for Gnomes of Sandia
15:57              * | jwb represents nobody
15:57 <      smooge> | we are an offshoot of the Gnomes of Zurich.. but had a falling out of the great GPL war of 1994
15:58 <   Lovechild> | jwb: then so long as nobody informs the community we'll be fine..
15:58 <         jwb> | :)
15:58 <         f13> | jwb: we just got wireless going
15:59 <         f13> | waiting on a few more people to show up.
15:59 <         jwb> | f13, bah.  wireless is for mortals.  real men just send brain waves directly to freenode
15:59            --> | gregdek (gaim) [n=gdk@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
15:59 <      smooge> | well other than Rex.. everyone should be from the same timezone.. :)
16:00            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: Setting the Agenda
16:00 <     gregdek> | Howdy do, folks.
16:00 <@greendiseas> | hey fools
16:00 <         jwb> | gregdek, so are you "the voice"?
16:00 <     gregdek> | As everyone gets started, /me wanders off to the can.  :)
16:00 <   Lovechild> | howdy ho gregerino
16:00 <     gregdek> | I am the voice, yes.
16:00 <         jwb> | k
16:00              * | quaid hip-hop handshake and hug to gregdek
16:01 <       quaid> | greendisease: howdy dude
16:01 <         f13> | gregdek will be the first voice
16:01            <-- | abostrom has quit ("Leaving")
16:02 <         f13> | which means I'll not pay attention for a while.
16:02 <@greendiseas> | quaid: w0ow, youre up early
16:02 <       quaid> | greendisease: weekly Enterprise Marketing meeting ... 9:30 a EST *ugh*
16:03            --> | abostrom (Alexander Bostrom) [n=abo@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:05 <     gregdek> | quaid: Yo, whassup, my brutha.
16:05 <     gregdek> | All righty.
16:07 <     gregdek> | So today is probably going to be around the issues regarding the opening of infrastructure.
16:09 <     gregdek> | I hope and presume that someone is logging the channel, since this is where I'm taking notes for the day.  ;-)
16:09 <     gregdek> | Max speaks... "this is the time to do a lot of the things with Fedora that we've been talking about for the last few months.  We've got management focus to really kick some ass right now."
16:10 <         jwb> | full logs can be made available for only 3 payments of $15.95.  if you act now, we'll throw in the logs of #fedora-extras for free!
16:10 <         jwb> | ;)
16:10 <       danpb> | i'll do logs for only  $14.95  & throw in a free pony !
16:10            --> | spot (spot) [i=spot@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:10 <     gregdek> | "...we've also got the possibility to be a bit subversive.  We spend a lot of time trying to get people on-board internally with the Fedora plan, but the times comes when, if people don't get on board, we route around them.  That's where we are with Fedora right now."
16:11            --> | jbowes (James Bowes) [i=jbowes@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:11 <     gregdek> | "...we've been talking about a world in which anyone can contribute to Core, or 'opening Core' or whatever, and anyone can participate.  That's what we're trying to get to."
16:11 <     gregdek> | (General nodding and agreement in the room.)
16:12 <        spot> | is there an audio stream or a dialin?
16:12 <     gregdek> | Jeremy speaks: "So let me play devil's advocate: what does opening Core gain us?"
16:13 <         jwb> | spot, no.  i asked that already
16:13 <     gregdek> | spot: There is not, sorry.  But if you want to throw something in, let me know.  I know I'm a poor medium here.
16:13 <        spot> | KDE is the most obvious "why open core" answer
16:13 <     gregdek> | Max: "...what we gain is actually being a community distribution, run in a community way."
16:13 <     gregdek> | Jesse: "Removing roadblocks to community contribution."
16:13              * | gregdek mentions Spot's comment.
16:14 <     gregdek> | Jesse: "When Red Hat *maybe* cares about 500 packages at a time, max."
16:15 <     gregdek> | Jeremy: "Continuing to play devil's advocate, blah blah blah."
16:15 <     gregdek> | :)
16:15 <   Lovechild> | it would also help to raise our profile which seems important, especially shaking that "red hat lite" image
16:16 <     gregdek> | Warren: "Lowering the roadblocks to contribution makes Fedora an actual meritocracy."
16:17 <      jbowes> | it would be nice to not have two different build systems, etc. as well
16:17 <        spot> | ... this telephone game is going to give me a headache.
16:17 <         jwb> | jbowes, yes.  that doesn't really mean that Core has to be open
16:18 <         jwb> | (playing devil's advocate with jeremy)
16:18 <        spot> | is there no polycom in the room?
16:18              * | spot can set up a toll-free bridge
16:18 <         jwb> | spot, that would be nice...
16:19 <      jbowes> | jwb: agreed. but the two would be easier if done together
16:19 <         jwb> | jbowes, sure
16:19              * | greendisease hits spot over the head
16:19 <@greendiseas> | i told you you should just fly here
16:20 <     gregdek> | spot: We're still trying to figure out if we can use the phone in this office.  :)
16:20 <        spot> | greendisease: sure. clear my calendar for the next two days.
16:20              * | spot points out that he gets paid to eat braiiiins, not work on Fedora.
16:21 <@greendiseas> | word
16:22 <     gregdek> | Rex: "You know what, it all starts with a policy decision.  We can all agree that we can change the definition of 'what ships' as 'what's in the Fedora Universe," not necessarily what's in Core.  And we can start the ball rolling right now by moving a ton of packages from Core to Extras.
16:23 <     gregdek> | Jeremy: "We don't want to necessarily wait to move packages from Core to Extras.  If we wait until we've got all the revision control questions sorted, it gets harder to move immediately."
16:24 <         jwb> | that depends
16:26 <     gregdek> | Max: "Here's the trivial case we must solve.  Thunderbird spec file is broken.  It's a one-line fix.  Twenty people post the fix in Bugzilla.  It blocks on a RH engineer having time to commit the change.  That's broken, and we need to fix it."
16:26 <     gregdek> | Jeremy: "Which is more important to fix immediately: build system, or source control.  Build system is what gets us moving now."
16:27 <   Lovechild> | well given the glacial pace at which people normally make big decisions would it not be good to move as many package now then open the question of a cvs replacement to the extras people. That way we get the benefit of being able to fix stuff now
16:28              * | gregdek speaks Lovechild's mind.  :)
16:29 <         jwb> | just moving packages from one repo to another doesn't really solve anything though
16:29 <     gregdek> | Jesse responds: "We need more than plague to do this.  Something that has package collections, package tagging, freezes, etc.  And rather than building that infrastructure around CVS, we might need to change that first."
16:29 <     gregdek> | Jesse responds from the Build Master perspective, heh.
16:30 <   Lovechild> | Jesse speaks wisdom though, no reason to build a house on a foundation of quicksand
16:30 <         jwb> | f13, be careful with the term Freeze
16:30 <         jwb> | Extras doesn't freeze
16:30 <     gregdek> | Sounds like that's something we'll be discussing.  :)
16:31 <     gregdek> | Looks like Extras and Core folks will have to meet in the middle to figure out what a "release" is going to look like.
16:31 <         jwb> | most likely
16:31 <     gregdek> | In a brave new world, how do we come up with a concept of "release" for CD spins, etc., that can contain both Extras and Core?
16:32 <     gregdek> | Jeremy: "This is why it takes Debian 3 years for a release.  This is why Ubuntu has very different rules for Main and Universe.  This is why OpenSuSE... well, has OpenSuSE released?"
16:33            --> | craigt (Unknown) [n=cthomas@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:34 <     gregdek> | Much talking about "what policies need to exist distinguishing Core and Extras."
16:34 <         jwb> | the way i see it, Core and Extras is just a logical line that is materialized into a physical means via separate repositories
16:34 <         jwb> | merge into a common repo, and you have what really exists
16:35 <         jwb> | you have fedora.  then you can talk about what packages comprise a Fedora Base
16:35 <     gregdek> | Blizzard arrives!  He looks like he slept in a box under the freeway.
16:35 <   Lovechild> | oh.. mental images.. the horror
16:35 <      jbowes> | hehe
16:36 <     gregdek> | Jesse: "Figuring out the use case for what we ship tells us what we target for freeze, while the community continues to roll forward."
16:36 <         jwb> | yes
16:36 <     gregdek> | Blizzard was up until 2am working on OLPC, poor bastard.
16:36 <     gregdek> | DaveJ: "Security folks are also tracking stuff somewhat in Core."
16:37 <         jwb> | they can do that in a merged repo
16:37 <     gregdek> | Warren is drawing a smiley face on the whiteboard.  No, it's a hat.  No, it's a dinner plate!  No, it's a conceptual map of the Fedora Universe!
16:37 <   Lovechild> | f13: Maybe some what similar to what rpath does with conary.. premade isos and isos on demand?
16:37            --> | nasrat (Paul Nasrat) [n=nasrat@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:37 <     gregdek> | No, it's actually a dinner plate.
16:37 <         jwb> | packages don't magically disappear or change names when put into a different repo
16:38              * | gregdek waits to pass along jwb's wisdom.
16:38 <         jwb> | ugh, please refrain from calling any of my drivel "wisdom" ;)
16:38            --> | wjd (W J Dearborn) [n=wjd@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:38 <       samfw> | i think he was being sarcastic
16:39 <     gregdek> | Jesse: "At the end of the day, people will want to spin ISOs based on both 'stuff we call Core' and 'stuff we call Extras'.  Therefore, we must either freeze everything, or nothing at all."
16:40 <     gregdek> | Blizzard: "We really need to shrink what we call 'the Base'.  The stuff that *really* needs to be *stable* is actually fairly small."
16:40 <     gregdek> | Jeremy: "What is the platform is a really big one."
16:41 <     gregdek> | Wow.  Blizzard is talking all about his "Bigger Tent."
16:41            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: Setting the Agenda.  Brought to you by Smiling Bob.
16:43 <     gregdek> | So I have proposed THE LARGE GOAL, which is this: "Allowing anybody to contribute packages to the Universe, and allowing anybody to build their own distro based on that package set."
16:43 <   Lovechild> | one could see how derived projects would benefit from blizzards tiny stable base and then a concept of say a gnome-desktop but then the variantions become endless and if we go down that road looking at rbuilder might not be a bad idea
16:43 <     gregdek> | And we're now discussing this philosophically to make sure it's the right goal.  (Which we seem to agree on.)
16:45 <   Lovechild> | one of Fedora' great strenghts is clearly that it's a nice base for a derived project: RHEL, OLPC, PS3' OS.. all build on Fedora. We should definitely hang on tightly to that goal
16:45 <         jwb> | yes
16:45 <         thl> | +1
16:46            --> | jrb (Unknown) [i=jrb@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:46 <   Lovechild> | while a bit to technical for this stage in the game I would urge having a look at what rbuilder does since it seems to be good at that task specificly
16:47 <     gregdek> | Blizzard: "We should also CELEBRATE all of these downstreams, which we've never really done."
16:47 <         jwb> | what does that mean?
16:47 <     gregdek> | I'm trying to find that out.  :)
16:47 <   Lovechild> | completely agreed, I'm often sad that we don't congratulate people like Yellow dog for selecting Fedora as the base for a massive deployment
16:47 <     gregdek> | Basically, if Fedora is so sweet, we should be bragging about that.
16:48 <     gregdek> | General nodding and agreement.
16:48 <         jwb> | we do...
16:48 <     gregdek> | Apparently not enough.  ;-)
16:48 <         jwb> | or is he talking about taking out ads in NYTimes or something?
16:48 <         jwb> | anyway, doesn't matter much.  need more rah, rah for fedora.  got it
16:48 <   Lovechild> | press releases and general community praising would be a good place to start..
16:49            --> | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:49 <      nasrat> | but some downstreams are appalling about pushing patches back up
16:49 <      nasrat> | despite much prodding
16:49 <   Lovechild> | maybe we could try and give Fedora Advocates a bigger profile, I would love to go out and preach the fedora gospel some more
16:49 <         jwb> | nasrat, yeah.  i'm a bit cautious about celebration ATM too
16:52 <   Lovechild> | on the other hand if the fedora community enmass praised these people for selecting Fedora out of the many platforms to build on, we could get them to partake a bit in the fun. I think we should at least try to reach out to these people, if for nothing but to tell the world that there's Fedora in <foo>..
16:52            --> | blizzard (Christopher Blizzard) [n=blizzard@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:52 <     gregdek> | OK, so we are going to state, clearly, the reasons we're choosing to open Fedora:
16:52 <     gregdek> | 1. A bigger tent.  More people involved means a better distro.
16:52 <     gregdek> | 2. Allows for Fedora use cases that we don't envision: innovation happens at the edges.
16:53 <     gregdek> | 3. Makes it easier to build downstream distros -- which people are already doing, so we can at least make it easier.  (RHEL, OLPC, PS3, etc.)
16:54 <   Lovechild> | it should probably be innovation happens everywhere and we want to allow it to happen freely
16:55 <   Lovechild> | otherwise it implies that base doesn't innovate or that we dont.. which would be playing down the efforts of the platform community
16:55            --> | brezhnev (gaim) [n=brezhnev@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:55 <     gregdek> | (Warren is busily restating point 1 as "meeting the community halfway."  So let it be recorded.)
16:55            --> | apuch (Andrew Puch) [i=apuch@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:56            --- | apuch is now known as wilee
16:56            --> | jberman (Joel Berman) [i=jberman@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:56 <     gregdek> | 4. Making it easier for downstream to commit their interesting changes back to us.
16:57 <     gregdek> | Spot calls Aurora retarded.  And he would know.
16:58 <     gregdek> | Now general talk about making the build tools available.
16:58 <     gregdek> | But we can do more.
16:58 <     gregdek> | I LIKE COCAINE.
16:58 <    blizzard> | speaking of freebasing
16:59            --> | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:59 <         jwb> | what?
16:59 <     gregdek> | Nothing.
16:59 <     gregdek> | Moving on:
16:59            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 11am.  Identifying the Problems to be Solved for Opening Fedora.
16:59 <     gregdek> | Max is making a list on the board.  To wit:
16:59 <         f13> | jwb: Fedora is a freebase from which to smoke your own flavor of crack
16:59 <         jwb> | f13, ah thanks
17:00 <   Lovechild> | f13: just don't do a Richard Pryor on us now
17:00 <     gregdek> | 1. Build Infrastructure for both packages and distro.
17:00 <     gregdek> | 2. Source infrastructure.
17:00 <     gregdek> | 3. Release methodology: freezes, updates.
17:00 <     gregdek> | 4. Architectures.
17:00 <         jwb> | 4 can tie into 1
17:01 <    blizzard> | yes
17:01 <    blizzard> | it can
17:01            --> | pink_trout (Pink Ponies) [n=TroutFis@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
17:01 <      nasrat> | gregdek: there is nothing hard about posting to mailing lists (eg anaconda-devel-list) but people consistently fail to push patches that way
17:02            --- | greendisease sets modes [#fedora-summit +o gregdek] 
17:02 <@    gregdek> | 5. QA and Testing.
17:02 <    dgilmore> | gregdek: aurora isint quite retarded  its like the dyslexic slightly dysfunctional half brother you dont want :D
17:02 <       wilee> | Is sun java going to be in fc7  ?
17:02 <         jwb> | wilee, offtopic at the moment
17:03 <@    gregdek> | Bits aren't dropping until March of 2007... so, no.  And off-topic.  ;-)
17:03 <        spot> | sun java will go into Fedora when source code is available. :)
17:03 <       wilee> | sorry , but this is a big deal to a lot of folks
17:04 <@greendiseas> | we understanfd, its just not part pof the discussion at this point
17:05 <@    gregdek> | It's a big deal to us too.
17:05 <@    gregdek> | But we've got plenty of time to think about it, heh.
17:07 <@    gregdek> | 3. Release methodology: freezes, updates, lifecycle, branding.
17:08 <@    gregdek> | 0. Platform.  Fedora Standard Base, flavors, Live CD, etc.
17:10 <   Lovechild> | so are we going for an Ubuntu like setup where the Fedora project commits to providing a base plus a desktop then leaves alternatives to the community in a collarobative fasion? Also how would that suit people like the OLPC who might want influence on base
17:11 <@    gregdek> | 6. Project Hosting.
17:13 <   Lovechild> | if we have a distributed revision control system hosting everything on Fedora servers wouldn't be a major issue since the overlapping between spec files and packages wouldn't be huge.. right?
17:13 <         jwb> | Lovechild, huh?
17:13 <@    gregdek> | Maybe.
17:14 <@    gregdek> | We're getting issues on the board right now, so we can put a timetable for discussion around them.
17:14 <@    gregdek> | So we're not going to drill down too deeply just yet.
17:14 <   Lovechild> | understood
17:15 <   Lovechild> | might we not have to look into communications infrastructure?
17:16 <         jwb> | Lovechild, example?
17:17 <   Lovechild> | jwb: it's suboptimal to allow derived projects without enabling them to talk together - we should harness the power for the freedom we are giving people by allowing them to work together.
17:17            --> | davidz (David Zeuthen) [n=davidz@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
17:18 <    blizzard> | z of the david
17:18 <      davidz> | c of the blizzard!
17:18 <    dgilmore> | Lovechild: we have mailing lists, and irc  do you want something like a jabber.fedoraproject.org server also?
17:18 <         jwb> | Lovechild, what dgilmore said...
17:18 <         thl> | please, not another communication way (like jabber) :-/
17:19 <         thl> | it's hard enought to keep track of everything already
17:19 <    dgilmore> | thl: indeed
17:19 <   Lovechild> | dgilmore: I meant more when a new project is registered it would be nice if they also got free means of communications.. I would favor a means of communications that referencable from other teams like a mailing list with a webarchive
17:19 <         f13> | Lovechild: that could fall under 'project hosting'
17:19 <         thl> | Lovechild, i think the "enabling them to talk together" with improve over  timne
17:19 <         jwb> | Lovechild, i think that's part of 6. Project hosting
17:20 <@    gregdek> | Absolutely.
17:21 <   Lovechild> | okay, I'll take your word for that then.
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17:23 <@    gregdek> | 7. IS/IT/Infrastructure issues.
17:23 <         jwb> | ugh
17:23 <    blizzard> | ?
17:23 <@    gregdek> | Heh.  We hates it, precious.
17:23 <@    gregdek> | 8. I18N issues.
17:24 <@    gregdek> | 8. I18N/Docs related issues.
17:24 <         jwb> | blizzard, IS/IT issues are always painful.  doesn't matter what company is involved :)
17:26 <    dgilmore> | gregdek: on 7  we need a better way for Fedora Infrastructure to communicate with Red Hat IS/IT
17:26 <         jwb> | or find a company that is willing to host it all
17:27 <      smooge> | on 7 you also need a better communication with Red Hat Finance (or whatever it its called) as money is what talks about priorities for RH IS/IT
17:27 <@    gregdek> | smooge: +1
17:28 <    dgilmore> | smooge: on that we need some communication
17:30 <@    gregdek> | Break time.  Back in a few.
17:31 <@    gregdek> | Next up: Platform Discussion.
17:34 <      smooge> | The big thing is that IS/IT serves 2 masters which never works well. Finance controls the strings but works their puppets in IT, the customers control the request and work through their puppets in IT to finance
17:36 <       wilee> | since this is a break
17:37 <    blizzard> | smooge is ever the conspiracy theorist
17:37 <    blizzard> | I miss smooge
17:37 <@    gregdek> | Gee, you'd think that smooge had worked with RH and knew all the poor suckers who still work there.  Or something.
17:37 <         f13> | bah
17:37 <    blizzard> | <notting> dance, monkey, dance!
17:37 <         f13> | smooge has no idea what it takes to release a product.
17:39            <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("Leaving")
17:39 <       wilee> | what are the chances of getting brutus into extras ? http://www.omesc.com/modules/main_module/
17:40 <         jwb> | wilee, you should ask on #fedora-extras
17:40 <       wilee> | ok
17:40 <         jwb> | wilee, this channel usually doesn't even exist and is only here for a couple days to cover a meeting being held
17:42 <@    gregdek> | Getting started again.
17:43 <    blizzard> | greg keeps hurting me
17:43            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 11:45am, Fedora Orbital Mind Control Lasers (i.e. Platform)
17:44 <      warren> | crap.  I didn't know it did mind control too.
17:44 <    blizzard> | warren: then we've succeeded
17:44 <      smooge> | f13, you are quite right.. never did it myself.. never tried to run a mirror, and never tried to figure out how to cut costs to meet a price mark
17:44 <         f13> | hehe
17:45 <         f13> | smooge: clearly you're just talking out your arse.
17:45              * | davidz uhh; Orbital Lasers again!! More talk about blowing up Denmark?
17:45 <@    gregdek> | Now we are discussing the "Fedora Platform" or the "Fedora Standard Base".
17:45 <      warren> | katzj: Obviously Part of Platform: What compiler?
17:45 <      warren> | blizzard: Stuff comfortable making promises about
17:45 <      warren> | davej: There will be a kernel
17:47 <      warren> | katzj: Include things that are obvious: base kernel, compiler, glibc, GNOME, X
17:47 <      warren> | notting: guaranteeing ABI of a particular version of that platform
17:47 <      warren> | blizzard: 20 guys on GNOME, 1 guy on KDE
17:47 <      warren> | notting: that could change, we have community
17:47 <      warren> | blizzard: question of release criteria
17:47 <      warren> | blizzard: enough interest, anything can become part of the release
17:47 <      warren> | katzj: platform implies a certain thing over life of release
17:48 <      warren> | Extras, rolling release, Core, updates
17:48 <      warren> | mindset sort of thing
17:48 <      warren> | Platform do updates
17:48 <      warren> | other things have rolling
17:49 <      warren> | bits in platform works together with each other
17:49 <      warren> | Extras - bumping is OK, as long as you bump five other things
17:49 <      warren> | Platform - minimalize changes that require other changes
17:49 <      warren> | davej: kernel interfaces change
17:49 <      warren> | blizzard: too easy to get trapped into RHEL mindset, are important, but not as important
17:50 <      warren> | barrier for making change (warren: progress) in Fedora is lower
17:50            --> | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
17:50 <      warren> | katzj: some scientific libraries in Extras move faster, not part of platform
17:51 <      warren> | blizzard: why care about platform?
17:51 <      warren> | katzj: care because if we are allowing spins at arbitrary points of time, there have to be things that are consistent at that point
17:51 <      warren> | not in the middle of a mass rebuild for a new gcc
17:51 <      warren> | jkeating: "Fedora" release must be what is declared for that released platform
17:52 <      warren> | (talking too fast)
17:52              * | warren argh!!!
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17:52 <      warren> | blizzard: 1) Lead up to release
17:52 <      warren> | 2) post-release
17:53 <      warren> | katzj: Platform is what defines a release point.
17:53 <      warren> | blizzard: time based releases
17:53 <      warren> | notting: ABI's in core change!
17:53 <      warren> | katzj: argh!!!!
17:54 <      warren> | notting: we've changed RPM in the past
17:54 <      warren> | gregdek: never again change RPM until the day we replace it
17:54 <      warren> | blizzard: choice of ABI change, x.org 7.0/7.1, want to bump to 7.1
17:54 <      warren> | example of gratuitous
17:54 <      warren> | decided not to do so
17:54 <      warren> | jkeating: balance we have to strike
17:55 <      warren> | blizzard: enable making some of those choices
17:55 <      warren> | (wanting to provide choice of 7.0 or 7.1)
17:55 <      warren> | davej: need to provide drivers for too many flavors
17:55 <      warren> | katzj: why is X interesting to do that and gcc isn't.
17:55 <      warren> | gregdek: agree on notion of promise, platform
17:55 <      warren> | blizzard: promise to make to ourselves
17:56 <      warren> | We know as a community we can do the work to get something out the door.
17:56 <      warren> | Post-release the promise is different.
17:56 <      warren> | No gratutious ABI breakage unless there is great end-user benefit
17:56 <      warren> | Post-release, promise to maintain the platform
17:56 <      warren> | update if necessary
17:57 <      warren> | Promise to not gratuitously break.
17:57 <   Lovechild> | would this include roadmap promises like Fedora Platform Foo will ship GCC 4.1.x, xorg 7.2, etc?
17:57 <      warren> | Lovechild, kind of the idea yes.
17:57 <      warren> | Lovechild, dependent on things we can't control though, like upstream schedules
17:58 <         f13> | warren: Lovechild: we do some of htat now, with saying we'll target gnome foo-bar for the release.
17:58 <   Lovechild> | naturally but an admirable goal
17:58 <      warren> | notting: I want to write software for Fedora, what interfaces should I use?
17:58 <      warren> | Change or remove things from platform, try to announce well in advance.
17:58 <      warren> | jkeating: target this gcc, glibc, gnome version, try to know ahead of time by looking at roadmap
17:59 <      warren> | promise that these components will be in the platform
17:59 <      warren> | We've had it with GNOME, let people know why we are removing it in the future.
17:59 <      warren> | (just an example)
17:59 <      warren> | QA...
17:59 <         jrb> | huh?
17:59 <         jrb> | we're removing gnome?
17:59 <      warren> | jrb, s/GNOME/foo/
18:00 <         jrb> | we're replacing gnome with foo?
18:00              * | jrb misses some point...
18:00 <    blizzard> | strawman :)
18:00 <@greendiseas> | i vote for xfce
18:00 <      warren> | blizzard: Technical roadmaps are nearly impossible, that is why we do time based releases
18:00 <         jwb> | that wasn't quite the context
18:01 <      warren> | Gregdek: innovation will happen around us whether we (something do something) or not.
18:01 <@greendiseas> | we're just trying to define what the criteria for a roadmap should be
18:01 <      davidz> | So.. anyone explain why is it interesting to know the versions of the components like X.org / gcc at all?
18:01 <@greendiseas> | and if we decide to drop something from the platform, we should let people know, vis-a-vis and accordsing to the roadmap
18:02 <      warren> | gregdek: Question: Cases where we allow people outside to own packages, do we explicitly define notion of RH being prime maintainer?
18:02 <      warren> | katzj: No, person is primary maintainer.  Person works for RH, job function, might reassign, but ...
18:02 <      warren> | Fedora is about people.
18:02 <      davidz> | either I'm an open source developer and you can patch my sources... otherwise I'm an ISV (e.g. Real, Adobe) and just statically link everything but what the LSB tells me
18:02 <      warren> | blizzard: Success condition over time, more external contributions over time.
18:03 <      warren> | mozilla, took seven years
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18:03 <      warren> | What happens when community folks say they want to maintain Xen?
18:03 <      warren> | katzj: They wont want to.
18:03              * | davidz just not sure why it's useful to know the versions of e.g. X.org and gcc - apart from some fuzzy feeling that next Fedora will include new X.org, Cairo or gstreamer goodness
18:03 <      davidz> | (for example)
18:03 <      warren> | "Who wants to touch that?  Be real.", says gregdek
18:03 <@greendiseas> | davidz: from an api perspective
18:03 <      warren> | blizzard: We want to enable contribution, but gregdek: policy decision of board
18:04 <@greendiseas> | if we are going to define the release of this platform is based on Xorg.foo
18:04 <      warren> | katzj: Who brought xen into distro?  that's who leads that
18:04 <@greendiseas> | and we are encouraging derivatives
18:04 <      davidz> | greendisease: no, either the app is open source and packager can patch... otherwise it's binary only and statically links everything but what the LSB prescribes
18:04 <      warren> | Example: yum was brought into Fedora by community
18:04 <      warren> | yum is maintained by community
18:04 <      warren> | jeremy is package monkey
18:05 <      warren> | blizzard: if RH wants to own something, RH needs to give resources, lead ... and be upstream
18:05 <      warren> | warren: accountable
18:06              * | davidz thinks it would be a lot more useful to convey more high-level roadmap - e.g. "next Fedora will contain feature X, Y and Z", not "next Fedora will include X.org 7.2, gcc 4.3" etc. - e.g. features, not API/ABI
18:06 <    blizzard> | davidz: ageed around the room, I think
18:06 <      warren> | Who determines ownership of a particular package when the result is important to RH's business.
18:07 <    blizzard> | he who steps up to the plate
18:07 <      warren> | Sometimes inside, sometimes outside
18:07 <      warren> | yum is proof that outside model can work
18:07 <      warren> | notting: tried model of past, "gatekeeper", painful
18:07 <      warren> | katzj: committer to upstream yum
18:08 <      warren> | blizzard: if RH is failing, someone else can improve it on the side and prove they can do it better.
18:08 <      warren> | currently no way of making this visible in a central location
18:08 <      warren> | ALTERNATIVES!?
18:08              * | warren argh!!
18:09 <      warren> | (i'm not sure how to transcribe what they are talking about now)
18:10 <   Lovechild> | warren: then hit them with a cluebat
18:10 <      warren> | gregdek: getting high off of dry-erase marker
18:10 <      warren> | Greg intervention
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18:11 <      warren> | Platform: This is the set of packages we will not break gratuitously.
18:12 <      warren> | Graph: gratuitous breakage over packages
18:12 <      warren> | curve
18:12 <      warren> | glibc/gcc (left bottom)
18:12 <      warren> | gnome X
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18:12 <      warren> | KDE/XFCE
18:12 <      warren> | firefox
18:13 <      warren> | kmod/madwifi (top right)
18:13 <      warren> | davej: nvidia, like anyone uses that
18:13 <      warren> | How do we come up with list of packages that are in the platform?
18:14 <      warren> | strong visible roadmap: these are things that will be in this version
18:15 <      glezos> | It would be so cool if we had a webcam in there... :/
18:16 <      warren> | (Discussion of how to decide what exactly is a platform)
18:16 <      warren> | more than just an ABI
18:16 <@greendiseas> | glezos: we're all really ugly, you probably dont want to see us on camera
18:16 <      warren> | example: behavior of GNOME menus not going to change in an update
18:17 <      glezos> | greendisease, a microphone
18:17 <      glezos> | equally cool. anyway. This streaming is very useful too. :)
18:18 <      warren> | Max: Care less about frequency of changes, care more about QA
18:18 <      warren> | figure out if platform is small core set of stuff that all fedora building comes from
18:19 <      warren> | How do you make it clear when not to update a package that breaks something
18:20 <      warren> | Extras is rolling, but this will be problematic when EVERYTHING becomes Extras.
18:21 <      warren> | Platform matters because you need a stable base to build upon.
18:21 <      warren> | Rebuildability and maintainability.
18:21 <      warren> | Part of the problem: Signaling other people to rebuild
18:21 <      warren> | example: openssl
18:21 <      warren> | rebuild openssl, oh crap!
18:21 <         thl> | hasn't one of the fooBSDs a platform modell?
18:21 <      warren> | everyone needs to rebuild everything that uses it
18:22 <      warren> | jkeating: we do not want automated builds
18:22 <      warren> | debian autorebuilds things against openssl
18:22 <      warren> | jkeating, gregdek: need way to test builds to see if it breaks things
18:23 <      warren> | katzj: distribution issues are huge, bandwidth resources necessary
18:23 <      warren> | notting: build openssl, dep check repo, built in scratch collection, dep check again to see if fixed
18:24 <      warren> | katzj: Today: Core defines the stable base with certain gcc/glibc, etc.
18:24 <      warren> | blizzard: whatever version you happen to have at release time
18:24 <   Lovechild> | well what's the magnatude of this issue, the majority of updates are harmless from this prespective right and the majority of contributors should be wise enough to shot off a mail or bugzilla entry when there's a problem like this - let's not define policy around corner cases
18:25 <      warren> | Platform: All packages for which we will announce version at release time.
18:25 <      warren> | katzj: a project communicates a set of features
18:25 <      warren> | blizzard: fedora specific stuff, I want to do features, not versions
18:26 <      warren> | Lovechild, "Should"
18:26 <      warren> | Tool problem
18:26 <      warren> | not a problem now, different policy for core than Extras.
18:27 <      warren> | warren: occasionally is a problem in Extras
18:27 <      warren> | (again: tools problem)
18:27 <      warren> | Policy, violate, whack!
18:27 <      warren> | Cascade of rebuilds happen in devel, but not released.
18:28 <      glezos> |  To generalize the idea for Platform, one idea is to define rough zones of package importance (where Platform is zone 1 and Core was something like zones 1-3). If distinction becomes modular and is reflected in final shipped CDs, then the more CDs one downloaded the more software he could install.
18:28 <      warren> | gregdek: We need scratch tools, see what changes are need, "OMG! 600 packages?"
18:28 <      warren> | katzj: really easy to tell, ABI change or not
18:28 <      warren> | (something about pornography that I missed)
18:29 <   Lovechild> | pornography.. oh man I so wanted to hear the context of that one..
18:30 <      warren> | katzj: What is platform trying to do?
18:30 <      warren> | trying to define a release
18:30 <      warren> | set of stuff that a release is built around, distros built around
18:30 <      warren> | can't have a rolling platform
18:30 <      warren> | Extras is not the platform
18:30 <      warren> | Core is the platform (now)
18:30 <      warren> | Core is too huge as a platform
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18:31 <      warren> | some in Extras wants to stop these gratuitous breakages
18:31 <      warren> | key question, how many changes does this change cascade to?
18:32 <      warren> | Proposed policy statement, how many changes does this create?
18:32 <      warren> | If more than X changes, requires approval from $HIGHER_AUTHORITY.
18:32 <      warren> | want to avoid gratuitous change
18:32 <      warren> | (tools problem)
18:32 <      warren> | katzj: How bigness of change?
18:33 <      warren> | openssl, backport security fixes to avoid gratuitous rebuild the world.
18:33 <      warren> | notting: define common sense
18:33 <      warren> | gregdek: define platform by common sense criteria, doomed to fail
18:33 <      warren> | notting: but that is what we are trying to do
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18:33 <      warren> | notting: invalidate documentation guides?
18:35 <      warren> | Platform: Sliding scale that prevents gratuitous change when we move to a "Universe" model.
18:36 <      warren> | (Extras could be held at a higher standard to avoid big cascading changes.)
18:36 <      warren> | directfb?
18:36 <      warren> | =(
18:36              * | warren wonders why we *NEED* things to be linked to directfb?  how important is that really?
18:36 <      mether> | how many volunteer packagers would be able to keep up with a 6 month release and freeze process?
18:37 <      warren> | notting: don't write things in tcl!
18:37 <      warren> | not i18nized
18:37 <      warren> | blizzard: don't do new things in tcl
18:37 <      warren> | (religious wars happening over table)
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18:37 <      davidz> | gitk is tk IIRC
18:38 <      davidz> | for example
18:38 <         jwb> | it is
18:38 <         jwb> | but qgit isn't
18:39 <      warren> | (people are antsy and hungry)
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18:40 <@    gregdek> | Am I still here
18:40 <@    gregdek> | Yes, good.  :)
18:41 <      warren> | (having network connectivity issues)
18:41 <      glezos> | Is defining a platform enough for solving the problems it addresses? Or a more general ranking of package importance is needed (where really important packages == Platform)?
18:44 <         f13> | glezos: the platform helps us to define what the "more" important packages are.
18:44 <      warren> | * Platform is a sliding scale to to prevent gratuitous change in our new universe world.
18:44 <      warren> | * Platform provides some of what core provides now in terms of defining a release.
18:45 <      warren> | * We are defining common sense.
18:45              * | warren stomach growling.
18:45 <    blizzard> | food
18:45 <    blizzard> | we're ordering 'pies'
18:45 <    blizzard> | I want apple
18:45            --> | mizmo (Máirín Duffy) [i=duffy@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
18:46            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 12:45 AM -- lunch break
18:46 <       samfw> | late lunch :)
18:46            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 12:45 PM -- lunch break
18:47            <-- | jberman has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:47 <    blizzard> | hungry
18:47              * | lmacken rolls out of bed
18:47 <     lmacken> | mornin'
18:51            --> | rdieter1 (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter1@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
18:57 <         f13> | the hunger.
18:58            --> | coufer (Bart Couvreur) [n=bart@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
19:04            --> | mspevack (Max Spevack) [n=mspevack@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
19:04 <    mspevack> | ok
19:04 <    mspevack> | right now we're doing several things
19:04 <    mspevack> | 1) waiting for pizza
19:05 <    mspevack> | 2) gregdek is updating the FedoraSummit page based on some of the things we talked about this morning
19:05 <    mspevack> | 3) people are sort of just bumping around on the internet for a little bit, kind of decompressing
19:05 <      glezos> | In an ideal world, shipped CDs/media will contain gradually less imporant packages and one could get a system running with 1 CD
19:05 <      glezos> | mspevack, thanks for the updates. :)
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19:12 <   Lovechild> | glezos: in an ideal world I would be sleeping with Jessica Alba.. but sadly this is not an ideal world
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19:13 <      glezos> | Lovechild, I guess :) But that doesn't mean we shouldn't improve things, right?
19:14 <         f13> | glezos: lowering the cd count is one goal.
19:14 <         f13> | you _can_ get a system running with 1 cd NOW.
19:15 <         jwb> | erm... since when?
19:19 <   Lovechild> | jwb: as I recall if you select the desktop install using US english locale it will ask for the second cd but not use it.. it's not pretty though
19:19 <      glezos> | f13, yeah.. I'm just wondering if with the upcoming FC/FE merge, we would be needing a way to rank packages with decreasing popularity/importance. Anyway, just some food for thought.
19:19 <         jwb> | that means you need 2 CDs
19:20 <   Lovechild> | jwb: you can probably just ignore the request for cd2.. I haven't tried it myself though since I use da_DK locale
19:20 <     mdomsch> | glezos, RHN has a backend that lets RH corp know which packages are installed on any given system
19:20 <     mdomsch> | I think that would be beneficial to Fedora too
19:20 <     mdomsch> | installed != using, but it's a better proxy than nothing
19:20 <         f13> | jwb: if you forgo gui, you only need 1 CD
19:20 <   Lovechild> | mdomsch: kinda like popularity contest in debian?
19:21 <         jwb> | f13, hm.. i recall doing just that on PPC and it still needed 2
19:21 <         f13> | ppc is the broken platform
19:21 <         f13> | because ppc needs a library that is ppc only and on CD 2
19:21 <     mdomsch> | Lovechild, not familiar with that, but sounds right
19:21 <         jwb> | ok
19:21 <         f13> | I noted this in the TreeTesting page
19:21 <         f13> | holy crap we have another ppc user.
19:21 <         jwb> | you have more than you think
19:21 <   Lovechild> | mdomsch: it's basically a tiny program that phones home to tell debian which packages you have installed..
19:22 <      glezos> | um.. I'm on PPC too. :)
19:22 <         f13> | jwb: not according to the download counts...
19:22 <         jwb> | f13, we've been over this.  ppc users are smart and just rsync rawhide a few days before the release ;)
19:22 <   Lovechild> | both our PPC users in the same irc room...
19:23 <         jwb> | dwmw2 has trained us well
19:23 <         f13> | so is there enough ppc users to sustain the arch on its own?  (like aurora?)
19:24 <         jwb> | if you let external machines plug into the buildsys
19:24 <         f13> | aurora doesn't...
19:24 <         jwb> | which should be done for aurora
19:24            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 2:00 restart with "Build Infrastructure"
19:25 <         f13> | jwb: yeah, that topic is later.
19:25 <         jwb> | f13, yep
19:25 <      glezos> | Do we have an estimation on the size of Fedora Universe?
19:25 <         f13> | yes
19:26 <    blizzard> | BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
19:27 <      glezos> | FC+FE in GBs?
19:28 <   Lovechild> | blizzard: I think you finally snapped...
19:28 <      davidz> | blizzard: "ok, I'll have one"
19:28 <     mdomsch> | glezos, ~5-6k packages
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19:28 <     mdomsch> | ~3k SRPMS
19:28              * | mmcgrath is here
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19:32 <       samfw> | mspevack: ping
19:32 <    mspevack> | samfw: pong
19:36 <    mspevack> | PIZZA IS HERE!
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19:59 <    mspevack> | we're getting started
20:00 <    mspevack> | dgilmore: ping
20:00 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: pong
20:00 <@greendiseas> | dgilmore: read your private messages
20:01 <    mspevack> | dgilmore: i sent you a /msg
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20:02 <    dgilmore> | im there
20:02 <    mspevack> | jesse is leading the conversation now
20:03 <   Lovechild> | all hail Jesse.. leader of the free world
20:03 <    mspevack> | mspevack is handling the IRC notes
20:04 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "so, the build system.  right now we have plague, which does ok for extras"
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20:04 <    mspevack> | "not really any sort of management layer on top of plague -- collections, tagging, etc"
20:05 <    mspevack> | conversation about how yum and plague interact (inheritance based on repos), etc.
20:05 <    mspevack> | spot, toshio, and dgilmore on the phone
20:06 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "important things that we want are:
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20:06 <    mspevack> | collections with tags
20:06 <    mspevack> | inheritance
20:06 <    mspevack> | ability to create collections based on tags on the fly
20:07 <    mspevack> | example -- someone wants to upgrade python, but it will break other stuff.  so you create a dist-fc7-python collection that inherits from dist-fc7
20:07 <    mspevack> | this idea extrapolates out to freezes"
20:07 <    mspevack> | max -- "what about embargoes"
20:08 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- "don't do much for it now, let's not worry about it for the moment"
20:08 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "let's talk about what a tag is"
20:08 <    mspevack> | package database.  every time a package nvr is built, it is placed in the database with information (the build root, etc)
20:08 <    mspevack> | if you want the package in dist-fc7, you tag the package in the db for dist-fc7
20:09 <    mspevack> | then you can pull out all packages with a certain tag, for a release
20:09 <    mspevack> | a "collection" is a set of packages with the same tag
20:09 <    rdieter1> | r
20:09 < ChitleshGoo> | take for example, new guile in fc6 breaks geda packages in FE
20:09 < ChitleshGoo> | hence what should be done here ?
20:10 <    mspevack> | what tags, collections, inheritance get us is a better way of getting stuff out of the build system
20:10 <    mspevack> | these things don't exist in the extras build system, that we need
20:11 <    mspevack> | to have in any sort of "global" build system for the Fedora Universe
20:11 < ChitleshGoo> | on fc5 guile-1.6 on fc6 guile-1.8, geda no longer works properly for fc6
20:12 <    rdieter1> | ChitleshGoorah: imo, that's more geda's (ie, upstream) issue.
20:12 <         jwb> | ChitleshGoorah, that is more along the lines of the topics discussed this morning.  the meeting has moved on now
20:12 <      warren> | mspevack, should mmcgrath be on the call too?
20:12 <    mspevack> | mmcgrath: i'll /msg you the call in info
20:12 < ChitleshGoo> | rdieter1: but I'm releasing a broken geda for fedora
20:12 <    mmcgrath> | warren: I'll be unavailable for another 40 minutes or so :(
20:12 < ChitleshGoo> | jwb: ok, anyone can send me the log ?
20:12 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- "to overstate the obvious, we want to keep using mock"
20:13 <      warren> | mmcgrath, things are ok, thanks.
20:13 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: thanks
20:13 <    rdieter1> | ChitleshGoorah: is upstream aware?
20:13 <    mspevack> | we just need some management on top of mock, which is what jesse is talking about
20:13 < ChitleshGoo> | rdieter1: yes
20:13 <    mspevack> | jesse -- interesting questions are:
20:13 <      warren> | ChitleshGoorah, that is not the current topic
20:13 <    mspevack> | 1) do we add some of RHAT's internal tools on top of plague?
20:13 < ChitleshGoo> | warren: ok
20:13 <    mspevack> | 2) do we continue to fight to get RHAT's internal changes externalized
20:14 <    mspevack> | max -- "didn't the board say a month or so ago that if we didn't get progress by 11/15, we'd move on our own?"
20:16 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- "instead of worrying about manpower, what if we took what is brew today and set it up outside?"
20:16 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "would require a fair bit of rewrite"
20:17 <    mspevack> | max -- comparative effort between implementing our own stuff on top of plague vs. getting RHAT's internal code ready for release?
20:17 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "about the same:
20:17 <    mspevack> | bill -- "are we allowed to take RHAT's internal code and put it out?"
20:18 <    mspevack> | what we have heard is that the blocking factor is resources to get the existing code released.
20:18 <    mspevack> | bill -- either way, we have very specific needs.  so let's enumerate them
20:19 <    mspevack> | brew has extra stuff that fedora doesn't need:
20:19 <    mspevack> | - sarbox stuff
20:19 <    mspevack> | - additional tracking
20:19 <    mspevack> | - metadata that's useful for packages that customers are paying money for
20:19 <    mspevack> | - etc.
20:19 <         jwb> | why isn't that useful for fedora?
20:20 <    mspevack> | that's what blizzard just asked
20:20            --> | |DrJef| (spacious... he's so) [n=jefrey@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
20:20              * | thl will be afk now, sorry for leaving
20:20 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "difference it makes is in bloat and slowdown, getting information out of build and into database, rate at which database will grow.  problems we are dealing with internally"
20:20 <         thl> | hae fun everyone
20:21 <    mspevack> | all package header metadata is imported
20:21 <    mspevack> | what I am hearing is that there's a lot of data
20:21 <    mspevack> | all being tracked
20:21            --- | You're now known as thl_afk
20:21 <    mspevack> | not necessarily being done in the best way possible internally
20:21 <    mspevack> | and it needs to be fixed.  so it would be nice to fix these problems in our Fedora work, rather than inherit new problems
20:21 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "not sure how much of this stuff can just be turned off either"
20:22 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- what features are necessary?
20:22 <    mspevack> | VERY BASIC
20:22 <    mspevack> | 1) build package via mock
20:22 <    mspevack> | 2) queue packages
20:22 <    mspevack> | 3) import package metadata into database
20:23 <    mspevack> | 1) build package via mock from SCM
20:23 <    mspevack> | 4) import build info
20:23 <    mspevack> | question -- optional arches?
20:24 <    mspevack> | dan -- code exists for enablign optional builds on secondary arches, it just isn't enabled right now
20:24              * | nirik thinks there might be a lot of tie in with this and the package database: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/PackageDatabase
20:25              * | mspevack just asked that same question
20:25            --> | georgemv (Giorgos Mavrikas) [n=georgemv@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
20:25 <    mspevack> | 5) package owner tracking, multiple owners
20:25 <    mspevack> | answer is "it's a very similar idea, and one *good* canonical package database can serve multiple purposes"
20:26 <    mspevack> | 5a) "owner" tracking by tag/arch/etc
20:27 <    mspevack> | *various conversation around these bullet points*
20:27 <    mspevack> | ACLs around tags
20:28 <    mspevack> | 6) tagless builds
20:28 <    mspevack> | which are basically "scratch builds" that don't go into any collection
20:29 <    mspevack> | blizzard would like these to be called "personal builds" because of the mindset that implies, and mspevack nods in agreement
20:29 <    mspevack> | 7) chain builds
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20:31 <    mspevack> | 8) integrate with "fedora identity management"
20:32 <    mspevack> | and that needs to be a black box, making no assumptions on what the account system is at any given time
20:32              * | mspevack knows that we're going to talk about OpenID later on :-)
20:32 <   Lovechild> | mspevack: that sounds awfully buzzwordy
20:32 <    mspevack> | Lovechild: today it's the fedora account system, tomorrow it could be something else (like openid)
20:32              * | mmcgrath is on the bridge
20:33 <    mspevack> | and we'd like any build system <-> account system communication not tie us into any sort of corner
20:33 <    mspevack> | whether it's openID or not doesn't matter -- we want to be able to move to *something else* without too much pain
20:33 <    mspevack> | Lovechild: better?  :-)
20:34 <   Lovechild> | I guess.. I'm not one to comment on that type of issue anyways.. it just sounded like marketing invaded or something
20:34 <    mspevack> | LDAP is a likely delivery mechinism for credentials
20:34 <    mspevack> | Lovechild: heh :-)
20:35 <    mspevack> | 9) delivery mechanism
20:36 <    mspevack> | 10) multilib logic, then compose tools can pull from a single place
20:36            --> | ChitleshGoorah (ircont9k) [n=ircont9k@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
20:37 <    mspevack> | *continued discussion*
20:37            --> | graveyard (Ruben Kerkhof) [n=graveyar@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
20:37 <    mspevack> | basically we're trying to make a list of the things a build system needs
20:37 <    mspevack> | then we're going to figure out what of that exists *somewhere*
20:38 <    mspevack> | then we'll see whether it makes more sense to force RHAT code into the open, or write new code in the open to begin with, that will serve our needs
20:38              * | mspevack just listens for a while
20:38 <   Lovechild> | so long as we won't be chasing the opening of that code forever..
20:39 <    mspevack> | Lovechild: no, we will not.  i'm tired of waiting.
20:39 <    mspevack> | what i want is a specific "we can release the code if you get us X engineering heads to do it" or "we'll never release the code, rewrite it yourselves"  that answer should not take long to get
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20:40 <   Lovechild> | that sounds reasonable and quite easy to get.. a black or white answer type thing.. if they don't want to give it to us at least they could stop us from wasting time.. easy to understand and respect
20:40 <    mspevack> | *nod*
20:43 <    mspevack> | some conversation about arches, which we table for later on
20:43 <    mspevack> | now we're going through our feature list and understanding what already exists, and what doesn't
20:44 <   Lovechild> | if we do get that code what is the time horizon in terms of hacking it to suit fedora... something we can do within the fc7 cycle or longer term?
20:44 <    mspevack> | best estimate we've heard so far is "a couple of man months"
20:44 <    mspevack> | which means we need to know what our course of action is pretty much ASAP
20:44 <   Lovechild> | excellent guessimate
20:44 <    mspevack> | like before Xmas
20:45 <    mspevack> | Lovechild: i trust that was sarcastic :)
20:45 <   Lovechild> | mspevack: with an uncertain status I think a couple of man months sounds reasonable.. so no..
20:45 <    mspevack> | ah, ok
20:45 <   Lovechild> | reasonable but brave
20:46 <    mspevack> | 11) access to build root on failure
20:46 <    mspevack> | bill -- we should ship a Fedora build configuration for mock
20:46 <    mspevack> | jesse -- we have it in makefiles
20:46 <    mspevack> | max -- then we need to make it better and/or make sure people know about it
20:47 <    mspevack> | hey folks on IRC -- what are we missing.  What do you folks who do so much packaging for us need?
20:47 <    mspevack> | help us fill out the list.
20:49 <   graveyard> | mspevack: some more up-to-date info about plague would be nice
20:49 < ChitleshGoo> | a possible way to upload and request builds via port 80
20:49 <    mspevack> | build packages via mock (in both plague and brew)
20:49            <-- | niavis has quit ("Leaving")
20:49 <    mspevack> | queue builds (both plague and brew)
20:49 <    mspevack> | import buildinfo (BREW ONLY)
20:50 <    mspevack> | owner tracking by packages (BREW ONLY)
20:50 < ChitleshGoo> | in my hostel, only port80 is open and I have so much kde rpms to share
20:50 <    mspevack> | tagless builds (brew and plague)
20:50 <    mspevack> | optional arches (NEITHER)
20:50 <    mspevack> | personal collections (BREW ONLY)
20:50 <    mspevack> | integrate with identity management (plague)
20:51 <    mspevack> | delivery mechanism (neither, really)
20:51 <    mspevack> | they require distill or rsync
20:51 <    mspevack> | distill == RHAT's compose tool
20:51 <    mspevack> | builders in different locations (plagues)
20:51 <    mspevack> | graveyard: like what?
20:52 <   graveyard> | the config example for plague-client on the wiki is outdated
20:52              * | mspevack will mention the IRC stuff in a break in the conversation
20:53 <   graveyard> | and maybe some info on what to do if you get "insufficient privileges" errors
20:53 <   graveyard> | but that may be just me :-)
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20:53 <    mspevack> | access to build root on failure (NEITHER does it right)
20:54 <   Lovechild> | didn't lmacken have some specific input to the requirements at a higher level to provide nice metadata for stuff like security and the likes.. dunno if that's appliable to this debate
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20:58 <    mspevack> | *much technical conversation that i won't even try to type in real time*
20:59            --> | chitlesh ([3ea0658d]  chriscole.info CGI:IRC User) [i=cgiircus@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
20:59 <    mspevack> | chitlesh: does it have to be port 80, or could it be port 443?
20:59 <    mspevack> | sounds like a firewall issue
21:00 <    chitlesh> | yes its a firewall, out of my control
21:00 <    mspevack> | lmacken's work falls under delivery mechnism, right now it's all done out of band after the build process.
21:00 <    chitlesh> | i can't say exactly but we might test some day
21:00 <    mmcgrath> | chitlesh: http://www.publicproxyservers.com/ ?
21:01 <    chitlesh> | mmcgrath: I can't tunnel anywhere!
21:01 <    mmcgrath> | oh :\
21:02 <    chitlesh> | even irc i can't connect except cgi-irc
21:02 <@greendiseas> | chitlesh: damn, where is this? a university?
21:03 <    chitlesh> | a hostel
21:03 <@greendiseas> | ahh
21:03 <@greendiseas> | not even https?
21:03 <       nirik> | chitlesh: not even openvpn's http proxy support? (This is off topic tho, so perhaps move to another channel for discussion?)
21:03 <    chitlesh> | well better talk about this latter on
21:03 <       quaid> | mspevack: docs and trans need some hooks into the build process, which are best defined by what is going to be done and what we have in docs/trans right now
21:03 <       quaid> | mainly I mention so as to have you throw in a couple of staffing weeks to get the hooks included
21:04 <       quaid> | the code that exists inside RH has been approved for release, but resources prevent us from doing it.
21:04 <    mmcgrath> | heh
21:04              * | mspevack states quaid's points
21:04 <       quaid> | we wouldn't necc. mind being more better hooked in, but it may not make sense.
21:04 <    mspevack> | quaid: do you need hooks into build process, or into source control that manages what gets built?
21:05 <       quaid> | e.g. we can have our own "docs rawhide" that is different form the RPMs that are built from docs
21:05 <       quaid> | yeah, that is kind of my answer
21:05 <       quaid> | we may not need to be hooked into the build, but at the same time ... maybe we should be
21:05 <       quaid> | I can see now that the RHEL docs are being integrated into the packages in some fashion
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21:06 <    mspevack> | quaid: we're going to devote a specific chunk of time to all docs later on, we will revisit then.  Jesse's trying to reach some sort of "grand point" right now :-)
21:06 <    mspevack> | docs, i18n, etc.
21:06 <       quaid> | so if we are going to have an connection to that, it means we need to treat our XML like source in the VCS and be part of the packaging love
21:06 <       quaid> | mspevack: roger that, it's related yet stand-alone
21:07 <       quaid> | just if ... well, maybe someone in that room grok's what Red Hat ECS is doing here so could tell us if we need a consideration as part of f13's point or not :)
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21:07 <    mspevack> | i think there's a good deal of ? above people's head right now.  we have a "list of questions that need to be answered"
21:07 <    mspevack> | we're going to get paul gampe on the phone
21:08 <    mspevack> | quaid: why don't you call in?
21:09 <       quaid> | sure
21:09 <    mspevack> | i msg you the info
21:10 <    mspevack> | ok, wrapping up (except for karsten)
21:10 <    mspevack> | jesse -- we believe that we now have a list of things that we need for the next release, or else life will be awful
21:10 <    mspevack> | davej - are we prepared to hold up the release?
21:10 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- will require a great job of controlling scope
21:11 <    mspevack> | from the phone -- infra team needs a MUCH BETTER picture of priorities
21:12              * | quaid is here
21:12 <       quaid> | that is, on the phone :)
21:12 <      warren> | quaid, was your earlier question related to alexandria?
21:14 <   Lovechild> | well if we start the transistion we can't very well halt in the middle can we, we have to hold up the release or the infrastructure to release won't be there... rgiht?
21:15 <    mspevack> | jesse adds to the board -- collection inheritance (tag builds for multiple collections)
21:16 <    mspevack> | (BREW)
21:18              * | quaid is off now
21:18 < codergeek42> | Brew still? I thought Core was also transitioning to Mock like Extras. (?)
21:18 <         jwb> | brew and plague both use mock
21:18 <    mspevack> | codergeek42_: we're making a list of stuff in brew that we need to get into plague
21:18 < codergeek42> | Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
21:18 <       quaid> | warren: hee hee, i should have remembered the name since I think i made it up in Fedora almost 2 year ago :)
21:19 <    mspevack> | also on the board -- "packages in build root but not in a collection" (BREW)
21:21 <    mspevack> | --- BREAK TIME ---
21:21            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 3:30 restart on "source infrastructure"
21:22 <     lmacken> | it is kind of hard to hear some of you guys
21:22 <    mspevack> | we will speak up
21:22 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: I missed the part about OpenID.  When will that be discussed?
21:22 <     lmacken> | it kind of just chopped off towards the end
21:22 <    mspevack> | we're on mute right now
21:22 <    mspevack> | mmcgrath: open ID is our starting point tomorrow morning at 10:00ish
21:22 <        spot> | mspevack: any chance we'll be talking about architecture tiering today?
21:22 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: when is the sub arch stuff going to happen?
21:22 <        spot> | i can't actually attend on tuesday or wednesday. :/
21:23 <    mspevack> | sub arch?
21:23 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: I've been contacted about OpenID from Greg Dekoenigsberg, don't know if he should be on the bridge or not.  Just letting you know.
21:23 <    mspevack> | like 4 people said "sub arch???"
21:23 <        spot> | mspevack: primary arch = x86, x86_64, sub arch = sparc, ppc, ia64, etc
21:23 <    mspevack> | mmcgrath: yeah, you should be for sure.  can you make tomorrow at 10?
21:23 <    mspevack> | spot: we can do that after the source conversation
21:23 <    mspevack> | so later this afternoon
21:23 <        spot> | ok
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21:23            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 3:30 restart on "source infrastructure", then primary/sub arches
21:24 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: yeah, I can be there.
21:24 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: can you ping me when doing sub arches
21:24            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- 3:30 topic is source infrastructure, then primary/sub arches, openID 10:00 tuesday
21:24 <    dgilmore> | ill call back in
21:24 <    mspevack> | dgilmore: yes
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21:24              * | mspevack takes a quick afk break
21:27              * | mspevack has decided (and those on the FPB in person have voted yes) that we shall start doing this pseudo-realtime IRC logging for our board calls
21:29 <         jwb> | mspevack, that would be very nice
21:29 <      glezos> | mspevack, good idea
21:30 < abadger1999> | mspevack: Great!
21:30            <-- | gregdek has quit (Remote closed the connection)
21:31 <        spot> | hooray!
21:31 < abadger1999> | It'll improve what we outsiders can see the FPB doing.
21:31 <   graveyard> | cool!
21:31 < codergeek42> | great idea :D
21:31 <       quaid> | even where I have zero input, I feel as if I'm part of the process when that is done
21:32 <        spot> | i would say that we'd like to see the Shadow Core Cabal do the same thing, but we're in the process of making them obsolete. ;)
21:32 <    mspevack> | spot: yeah, hopefully there won't *BE* a shadow core cabal for much longer
21:33 <         f13> | spot: the shadow core cabal meetings happen in the carpool to and from the office (:
21:33 <         jwb> | spot, that's an interesting point because it has implications for FESCo as well
21:33 <    mspevack> | OK, STARTING AGAIN -----------------
21:33 <    mspevack> | Source control
21:33 <    mspevack> | conversation being led by Jeremy Katz
21:33 <    mspevack> | mspevack is still the IRC bitch
21:34 <    mspevack> | f13 is secondary IRC bitch
21:34 <        spot> | phone is on mute!
21:34 <         f13> | we're waiting for blizzard
21:34 <    mspevack> | phone is active!
21:34              * | warren tertiary IRC bitch
21:34 <    mspevack> | on the phone -- spot, luke, WHO?
21:35 <    mspevack> | source control -- where we are today:
21:35 < abadger1999> | mspevack: Toshio
21:35 <         f13> | dist-cvs
21:35 <         f13> | (we're ignoring that core and extras are in different repos)
21:35 <    mspevack> | phone -- also toshio and jwb who is lurking :-)
21:35 <         jwb> | :)
21:35            --> | Foolish (Sindre Pedersen Bjordal) [n=foolish@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
21:36 <    mspevack> | we face all the normal warts of CVS (branch issues, etc) but it *works*
21:36 <    mspevack> | jeremy "i'm going out on a limb and say that this isn't the big problem that stops us from making all our bigger progress"
21:36 <    mspevack> | greg "i mostly agree, but does this make it easier or harder to move changes back and forth between fedora and rhel"
21:36 <    mspevack> | bill "if we move core into what is basically extras, it will be harder"
21:36 <    mspevack> | jesse "even harder if we move to another external source system
21:37 <    mspevack> | jeremy "not a major blocker, but we do want to be making progress on it"
21:37 <    mspevack> | would we hold up fedora release for solutions?
21:37 <    mspevack> | build system problems-- yes
21:37 <    mspevack> | source control-- no
21:38 <    mspevack> | issues if we move "core" to "extras"
21:38 <    mspevack> | 1) break access for large number of people inside RH who don't have fedora accounts
21:39 <    mspevack> | (a self-correcting problem.  needs to be addressed because these are potential political problems)
21:40 <    mspevack> | 2) incremental pain of 2 cvsroots
21:40 <    mspevack> | bill -- "what's going to happen to cvs.f.r.c when we dump external load on it"
21:41 <    mspevack> | max -- "can't we just buy new boxes?"
21:41 <    mspevack> | bill -- "yes, we just won't know what we need immediately"
21:41 <    mspevack> | but regardless, there is money for boxes
21:41 <      jbowes> | moneybags spevack
21:41 <    blizzard> | finding change in the couch
21:42 <    mspevack> | jbowes: not after buying lunch for this crew today :-)
21:42 <    mspevack> | ok, back to the topic at hand
21:42 <    mspevack> | *discussion about ACLs*
21:42 <    mspevack> | we have them in internal CVS
21:42 <    mspevack> | but not in external CVS
21:42 <    mspevack> | bill -- 2 levels of ACLs
21:42 <    mspevack> | you have to be in a particular group
21:43 <    mspevack> | and then there are ACLs per directory
21:43 <         f13> | 'in a particular group to access cvs at all'
21:44 <    mspevack> | gregdek -- "why do we need acls"
21:44 <    mspevack> | in theory -- to keep people from just throwing stuff in willy-nilly
21:45 <     |DrJef|> | mspevack, is that a real problem currently.. or is that still a percieved problem?
21:46 <   Lovechild> | also it makes people feel important when they are trusted with more destructive abilities
21:46 <    mspevack> | hang on.  i'm talking and i can't type at the same time :-/
21:46 <         f13> | |DrJef|: its percieved because we don't have core packages external.
21:46 <    mspevack> | max -- I want people to be able to check in changes, see what happens, etc.  without affecting the "official" code
21:47 <         f13> | |DrJef|: we havne't had to deal with the 'feature war' between multiple developers and a hot package, like the kernel.
21:47 <    mspevack> | many folks -- "max, that's more of a long-term goal"
21:47            <-- | chitlesh has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
21:47 <    mspevack> | "but distributed source control will give us that"
21:47 <     |DrJef|> | f13, no experience of that in extras yet?
21:47 <    mspevack> | distributed SCM helps with "personal branches"
21:47 <         f13> | |DrJef|: there has been a few blowups
21:48 <     |DrJef|> | f13, i want to make sure we balance acl's with reasonably good mulit-maintainer encouragement..so we don't see acl's cause more problems than they solve
21:48 <    mspevack> | RESOLVED -- everyone needs to work 24x7
21:48 <     lmacken> | :)
21:48 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: done ;-)
21:49              * | stickster_work has infarction and keels over
21:49 <    mspevack> | *conversation around political pressure around changing SCM*
21:49 <    mspevack> | and what is more important
21:49 <    mspevack> | if we can only get *so much* RHAT buy in, what would we rather have?
21:49 <    mspevack> | build system or SCM?
21:49 <    mspevack> | answer seems to be build system
21:50 <    mspevack> | because we can sort of subversively do our SCM work off on the side
21:50 <    mspevack> | f13: care to expand?
21:50 <    mspevack> | and... SCM is something that it's much easier to get FESCO help with
21:50 <    mspevack> | stickster_work: up off the mat, boy!
21:50 <    mspevack> | s/mat/matt
21:51 <    mspevack> | er no, i got it right the first time
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21:51 <    mspevack> | jesse can get dist-git up within a few days
21:52 <    mspevack> | main idea -- "pepsi challenge" between our SCM options
21:52 <         jwb> | pepsi challenges are rife with fanboys
21:52              * | mspevack thinks dist-pen-and-paper will lose
21:53 <@greendiseas> | dist-rock-paper-scissors
21:53 <    mspevack> | in most of the conversations I listen to, Hg seems to have the most love.
21:53              * | mspevack will interrupt the IRL conversation shortly
21:53 <         jwb> | yes
21:53              * | stickster_work notes that he has only a casual acquaintance with Mr. Domsch, thank you very much
21:55 <    mspevack> | jesse really wants to go through the experience of setting up several different SCM repos, and see how the workflow *actually goes* with these before just "making a choice"
21:55 <    mspevack> | but ultimately, it will end up being jesse's choice
21:55 <    mspevack> | for the most part
21:55 <         jwb> | f13, just remember that the initial pain of doing the import really isn't indicative of how it's going to be used
21:56 <         f13> | thats not my decision maker
21:56 <         jwb> | figured
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21:56 <         f13> | my decision maker is people using the proof of concepts and running into gotchas/issues
21:56              * | nirik doesn't much care which one, as long as it works. The rest of the buildsys/infrastructure shouldn't care or should be easily changed for new SCM's
21:57 <    mspevack> | people are talking about quilt now
21:57 <    mspevack> | my personal opinion -- there's always a "new" version control system that everyone loves.  Just find one of the current ones (like Hg) that makes lots of people happy and let's get on with it already
21:57 <         f13> | talking about longer term bigger pictures of what we can do with new scms.
21:57 <         jwb> | quilt isn't an SCM
21:57              * | mspevack has never heard of quilt!
21:58 <         jwb> | you'd need quilt + <something>
21:58 <         f13> | jwb: QUILT as a way of managing your patches for a package
21:58              * | mspevack is such a PHB
21:58 <        ajax> | both git and hg have quilt integration
21:58 <         f13> | jwb: quilt plugins for hg and git
21:58 <         jwb> | f13, STgit for git.  forget what it is for hg
21:58 <         f13> | Mq
21:58 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- "i want to help users kick ass right now.  how do we do that without making dave jones' life hell?"
21:58 <        ajax> | imagine if working with patches in spec files wasn't incredibly freakin' painful.  that's more or less what quilt does.
21:59 <         jwb> | quilt is yummy
21:59 <         jwb> | %prep
21:59 <         jwb> | quilt push -a
21:59 <         jwb> | ;)
21:59 <         jwb> | doh, forgot the setup part
21:59 <    mspevack> | jesse -- different way of doing source control can make it much easier to track changes, and who is making them
22:00 <    mspevack> | which helps jesse do his job
22:01 <    mspevack> | greg -- let's just get some technical work items listed
22:01 <    mspevack> | bill -- we agree that:
22:01 <    mspevack> | 1) we're going to take all the packages in Core and put them in the same CVS root as Extras
22:02 <    mspevack> | only question is when?
22:02 <    mspevack> | - before build system is ready
22:02 <    mspevack> | - after?
22:02 <    mspevack> | - at the same time?
22:02 <    mspevack> | question -- can the build system handle things before?
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22:02 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- can't do it before the build system is ready.
22:02 <    mspevack> | jesse -- we'd lose the ability to build packages!
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22:03 <    mspevack> | problem is -- "does package FOO have to be  built with brew or plague"
22:03 <    mspevack> | bill -- so what can we move RIGHT NOW?
22:03 <    mspevack> | jesse -- any package with an owner who's ready to take the plunge with getting their package reviewed for Extras
22:04 <    mspevack> | can we stop new additions from being made to Core, as much as possible?
22:04 <       nirik> | reviewed? so all the core packages will need reviews? could take a while, given lack of reviewers...
22:04 <      jbowes> | a lot of them need to be reviewed
22:04 <         f13> | adsfasfd
22:04 <    mspevack> | nirik: we'll come back to that shortly
22:05 <    mspevack> | jesse -- need to make a decision
22:05 <       nirik> | agreed, but if we want to finish before fc7, there might need to be some more reviewers. ;)
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22:05 <        spot> | if i'm supplied with good food and drink, i can beat through a massive amt of reviews
22:05 <        spot> | just like in the olden days. ;)
22:05 <    mspevack> | can next release test composes be from both Core and Extras?  If not, then we can't just let everything move over
22:05              * | nirik cheers spot on... :)
22:05 <   Lovechild> | spot: I'll sponsor the coffee
22:06 <    mspevack> | but in the near term, for example, if "rex wants to start reviewing kde packages to move into Extras, that's fine"
22:06 <         f13> | We need to keep things internal that are needed to complete other builds.
22:06 <         f13> | leaf node packages can go to Extras now.
22:06 <         f13> | new packages go to Extras
22:06 <    mspevack> | TO DO
22:07 <    mspevack> | 1) drive creation of fedora accounts for all red hat engineering
22:08 <    mspevack> | issues around "people sponsorship"
22:09 <    mspevack> | RHAT engineers will now *HAVE TO* take their packages, follow guidelines, etc that they haven't necessarily had to pay any attention to before
22:09 <    mspevack> | max is concerned about FESCO feeling like they still have leadership
22:11 <       nirik> | so does FESCO go away now and FAB is in charge of all? or ?
22:11 <         f13> | no
22:11 <    mspevack> | no
22:11 <    mspevack> | NONONONO
22:11 <    mspevack> | concern -- "red hat engineers feel a sense of entitlement that they can do whatever they want"
22:11 <    mspevack> | and making sure that doesn't happen
22:11 <         f13> | We have to have clear messaging that Rh employees are not perfect.
22:11 <         f13> | lets use the bind spec as an example.
22:12 <    mmcgrath> | f13 :-P
22:12 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- we just have to deal with the incremental pain of 2 cvs roots
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22:15 <    mspevack> | phone -- who is talking? -- divide packages into groups, rather than people, when it comes to contributions
22:15 <    mspevack> | luke said that
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22:16 <    mspevack> | but he said it much better than i did
22:16 <    mspevack> | package database needs to support multiple people associated with a package
22:17 <    mdomsch_> | per distro / release
22:18 <    mspevack> | *discussion around the actual mechanism of moving hundreds and hundreds of packages from core to extras*
22:19 <    mspevack> | do we need to review before we move, or move and then tag them as "reviewed" or "not"
22:19 <    mspevack> | second way is probably easier, even though we know a mass import is bad
22:19 <    mspevack> | basically, we don't want stuff to drag out forever
22:20 <       quaid> | give ppl 2 week to get their stuff fixed ebefore mass import?
22:21 <   Lovechild> | quaid: maybe send out a message to Extras at the same time asking for all the help people can give us during those 2 weeks?
22:21 <    mspevack> | 2 stage process
22:22 <    mspevack> | 1 -- anyone who has a package that can get moved should go for it
22:22 <       quaid> | Lovechild: well, yes, but I think the real help is going to be needed _after_ the two weeks when the mass import has been done but none are reviewed yet :_
22:22 <    mspevack> | 2 -- later on, once build system is ready, we have a mass move and review system
22:22 <    mspevack> | *some discussion about the details of that system, which don't need to be typed*
22:24 <    mspevack> | bill -- there is going to be some subset of packages that are in core now, that given the choice between moving to extras or being orphaned, they'll be orphaned
22:25              * | quaid cheers that idea
22:26 <       nirik> | might be nice to announce a list and see if there is anyone in the community that would like to take them over and push them into extras...
22:26 <    mspevack> | *nod*
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22:31 <    mspevack> | *max talks for a bit about political issues, basically "what steps can we take to make this have the best chance possible of getting RHAT buy in"
22:32 <    mspevack> | greg has been taking extensive notes, that will be placed on the wiki
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22:33 <    mspevack> | "move core to extras" --> Fedora Board mandate
22:33 <    mspevack> | "new scm" --> SIG with *fixed lifetime*
22:34 <    mspevack> | bill -- are we going to require sponsorship?  things like this will run by FESCO at their next meeting
22:34 <    mspevack> | jeremy, warren, rex are all on FESCO
22:34 <         jwb> | mspevack, so are abadger1999 and jwb
22:35 <    mspevack> | cool, i was just doing a survey of who's in the room
22:35 <    mspevack> | i forgot about our phone lurkers
22:35 <    mspevack> | warren -- "i think fesco will like the plan, they just need to understand it"
22:36 <    mspevack> | getting some final action items down
22:36 <    mspevack> | getting ready for the next break
22:36 <    mspevack> | and then the next topic, which will be primary/sub arches
22:37 <    mspevack> | this was a good hour for Fedora :-)
22:38 <     lmacken> | ouch
22:39 <    mspevack> | question -- what's the future of FESCO (probably needs a different name), and some sort of public release team, which is the "fedora core cabal" getting made public and renamed
22:39 <    mspevack> | more on governance tomorrow
22:40 <    mspevack> | back at 16:50/16:55 for primary-sub arches
22:40 <    mspevack> | spot: does that work for you?
22:40 <        spot> | ok, sure.
22:40 <        spot> | i'll be back in 10.
22:40 <    mspevack> | BREAK TIME ==============
22:41              * | mmcgrath has a crooked neck
22:41 <         jwb> | mmcgrath, speaker phone :)
22:42              * | spot is trying to use his headset
22:42 <        spot> | but whenever someone on the phone speaks, i go deaf
22:43 <         f13> | gah
22:44 <    mmcgrath> | Whats on the agenda after the break?
22:44 <         jwb> | mmcgrath, arches
22:44 <    dgilmore> | mmcgrath: sparc
22:44 <         jwb> | dgilmore, more than that.  anything not x86/x86_64
22:45 <    dgilmore> | jwb: i know  being a smart alec
22:45              * | jwb waves to corbet
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22:49              * | lmacken heads out to go take a final
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22:52 <    mspevack> | ========= WE'RE BACK
22:53 <    mspevack> | arches and sub-arches
22:53 <    mspevack> | Bill Nottingham has the floor
22:53            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- current topic is primary/sub arches || openID 10:00 tuesday, then governance questions, chat with tim burke/brian stevens
22:54 <    mspevack> | bill is writing on the white board
22:54 <    mspevack> | but i can't see it yet
22:54 <    mspevack> | ok
22:54 <    mspevack> | PRIMARY ARCHES -- x86, x86_64
22:54 <    mspevack> | SECONDARY --
22:54 <    mspevack> | for Fedora -- PPC, sparc, ia64
22:54 <    mspevack> | for RHEL -- ppc64, s390x, ia64
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22:55 <    mspevack> | in Fedora, we treat PPC as primary arch *right now*
22:55 <    mspevack> | why we want to make PPC a secondary arch
22:55 <    mspevack> | "it is effectively without a maintainer and person who prods it to make it go"
22:55 <    mspevack> | "it complicates the testing matrix"
22:56 <   Panzerboy> | what does it mean "a secondary arch" ?
22:56 <    mspevack> | "ppc problems have always led to last minute respins, problems that have existed for a long time and no one has seen"
22:56 <    mspevack> | "torrent number show a tiny PPC usage"
22:56 <    mspevack> | "less than 1%"
22:56 <    mspevack> | Panzerboy: that is what we are about to present a proposal about
22:56 <    mspevack> | spot now has the floor
22:57 <    mspevack> | spot: send to max at spevack dot org
22:57 <    mspevack> | spot: i'm not on vpn
22:57 <   Panzerboy> | mspevack: ok
22:57 <    mspevack> | *brief lull as spot gets ready to speak*
22:57 <    mspevack> | standby
22:57 <    mspevack> | .....
22:58 <    mspevack> | spot: tried to look at what other distros are doing from an arch perspective.....
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22:59 <    mspevack> | Gentoo: Architecture Maintainers mark packages as stable for their
22:59 <    mspevack> | architecture, after testing.
22:59 <    mspevack> | Ubuntu: Key teams for coordinating release of architecture ports (AMD64,
22:59 <    mspevack> | PPC, IA64)
22:59 <    mspevack> | Slackware: Only official non x86 port is s390
22:59 <    mspevack> | some cut and paste from spot
22:59 <    mspevack> | =========
23:00 <    mspevack> | All arches attempt to build by default.
23:00 <    mspevack> | Primary architecture build failures stop the build.
23:00 <    mspevack> | Second architecture build failures don't stop, but architecture teams
23:00 <    mspevack> | are notified. Architecture teams are permitted to make changes to enable
23:00 <    mspevack> | their architecture to build, and request new builds. They will inform
23:00 <    mspevack> | the maintainer(s) of the package before doing so.
23:00 <    mspevack> | Architecture Teams should be able to mark the status of their
23:00 <    mspevack> | architecture (just because it built doesn't mean it works).
23:00 <    mspevack> | ExcludeArch settings should be signed off by the Architecture Team.
23:00 <    mspevack> | ============
23:00 <    mspevack> | Architecture Maintainers head up Architecture Teams
23:01 <    mspevack> | Arch Maintainer is the leader/accountable person
23:02 <    mspevack> | spot is talking about all of this on the phone
23:02 <    mspevack> | you guys just get to see it now
23:02 <    mspevack> | so there might not be much traffic for a little while
23:02              * | mspevack goes into listen mode
23:05 <    mspevack> | question 1 -- are we going to be able to have external build boxes?
23:06 <    mspevack> | question 2 -- if they have to be internal, what will we do with boxes that don't belong to red hat?
23:26 <    mspevack> | putting together some plans for our goals for tomorrow
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23:38              * | spot dropped off the call, thanks for giving me the time
23:39 < abadger1999> | mspevack: Am I understanding that VCS is not going to change in the FC7 release time frame?  (B/c we're going to experiment with workflows that are different from the CVS one?)
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23:40 < abadger1999> | We're going to handle the merge in dist-cvs and implement the package DB.  Then migrate to dist-{hg,git,bzr} at a later date?
23:40 <    dgilmore> | spot: thanks for your words
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23:41 <      warren> | abadger1999, not decided yet, fedora-scm SIG will be formed for further focused experimentation of VCS.  FPB will mandate it soon with a limited life-time.
23:42 < abadger1999> | warren: thx for the clarity.
23:42 <      warren> | abadger1999, I'm guessing the SCM SIG will be a mailing list and wiki.  But the important part is a DEADLINE on the sig to disappear.
23:43 <    mspevack> | GOALS FOR TONIGHT
23:43 <    mspevack> | 1) pictures of white board on FedoraSummit (Jack)
23:43 <    mspevack> | 2) greg's notes onto FedoraSummit
23:43 <    mspevack> | 3) IRC log onto FedoraSummit (Jack)
23:43 <      warren> | 4) BLOG (Everyone)
23:44 <    mspevack> | 5) call setup for tomorrow (Max)
23:45 <      jbowes> | thanks for doing this IRC thing, fellers. It's informative
23:45 <    mspevack> | jbowes: we're glad
23:45 <    mspevack> | ======== ADJOURNED FOR THE DAY ===============
23:45            <-- | warren has quit ("Leaving")
23:46            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- openID 10:00 tuesday, then IS/IT discussion
23:47            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- RESUME 10:00 Eastern Tuesday -- openID, then IS/IT discussion
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23:47 <      glezos> | yes, thanks for the streaming. was very informative on how things are, how we work as a project etc.
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--- Day changed Di Nov 14 2006
00:01 <     |DrJef|> | now that its over i'm tempted to mst3k the irclog with all the smartass comments i refrained from making
00:02 <        ajax> | push the button, frank
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04:05 <@greendiseas> | ajax: ping
04:06              * | f13 tries to remember what to blog
04:06 <         f13> | and of course, gregdek isn't online :/
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04:20 <    dgilmore> | f13: everything
04:20 <         f13> | hah
04:23 <    dgilmore> | f13: buildsys stuff
04:23 <    dgilmore> | f13: that  i think is a really cool aspect of everything
04:25 <         f13> | yeah, there was a long list of things we need, and greg wrote them down.  I don't have them on me.
04:25 <         f13> | I'm blogging more generic which is OK for now.
04:27 <         f13> | dgilmore: where you asking me about subscribing to all Infrastructure/ pages?
04:27 <    dgilmore> | f13: yeah  i think i got it right
04:28 <         f13> | dgilmore: yeah it's Infrastructure/.*
04:28 <         f13> | ah!  greg put the list in the wiki.  Awesome!
04:29 <    dgilmore> | hmm i think i did Infrastructure/*
04:30 <         f13> | that may work.  I just have /.* in my subscription list
04:30 <         f13> | er Legacy/.* or infrastructure/.*
04:32 <    dgilmore> | i changed to add the .
04:32              * | nirik just pulls the rss feed via liferea... handy that way.
04:47 <@greendiseas> | f13: im about to put up my pictures of stuff
04:47 <         f13> | k, I just did a brain flush
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06:40            --- | You're now known as thl
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07:35              * | thl wonders if http://spevack.livejournal.com/3986.html needs a s/FAMSO/FESCo/
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12:39 <    jwb_gone> | thl, he might have meant the Fedora Ambassadors project
12:40 <         thl> | ohh, do they meet on thursdays these days, too; then never mind
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14:10 <         f13> | thl: could go either way.  Rex is supposed to bring stuff up to the FESCo
14:11 <         thl> | f13, yeah, I've read that
14:11 <         thl> | f13, everyone, thx for your work btw
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15:12 <         jwb> | f13, around?
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15:55 <    mspevack> | good morning
15:55 <      smooge> | morning
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15:55 <    mspevack> | we've got bill, max, greg, and rex here
15:55 <    mspevack> | waiting for the others
15:56 <    mmcgrath> | mornin
15:56 <      jbowes> | good morning
15:57            --> | nasrat (Paul Nasrat) [n=nasrat@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
15:57 <         thl> | good {insert local time of time}
15:57 <    mspevack> | hi everyone
15:58 <         thl> | s/time}/date}/
15:58 <      jbowes> | thl: maybe 'hello' would be easier
15:59 <         jwb> | mspevack, some questions on the arch stuff have popped up.  where should we send those?
15:59 <    mspevack> | f-advisory-board, i would say
15:59 <      nasrat> | jwb: you mean what does it mean for MY arch ;)
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15:59 <         jwb> | nasrat, yeah but that arch is the only unique one at the moment
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16:00 <         jwb> | nasrat, because it's transitioning from a primary to a secondary
16:00 <         thl> | jbowes, yes, maybe ;)
16:00 <      nasrat> | jwb: odd that only sparc seems to be mentioned then
16:01 <         jwb> | nasrat, yeah.  i think the wiki pages needs to point out more clearly what exactly is going to happen to all the arches.  especially rawhide...
16:01 <   dwmw2_PVG> | it was suggested that one of the motivations for moving it to secondary was because it was responsible for the slips. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-October/msg00199.html and https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-October/msg00431.html don't seem to support that though
16:02 <   dwmw2_PVG> | we work fairly hard to make sure it doesn't lag.
16:03 <         jwb> | i'm curious as to where these secondary arch packages are hosted in general.  do they become part of rawhide off of fp.org?
16:03 <         jwb> | or do they live on some external machine?
16:03 <         jwb> | that was discussed, but i don't see it in the wiki page
16:03              * | thl will drive home now; BBL
16:04 <    mspevack> | now a few more people in the room:
16:04 <   dwmw2_PVG> | Presumably it starts off like Extras -- a second class citizen which nobody really cares about. And then we realise that's not workable when we put our thinking hats on, and try to do something about it, bring it closer.
16:04 <   dwmw2_PVG> | as we're sensibly doing with Extrass
16:04 <    mspevack> | MaxSpevack, GregDeKoenigsberg, BillNottingham, JackAboutboul, RexDieter, WarrenTogami (who has now left to get donuts)
16:04 <    mspevack> | getting closer to quorum
16:04 <    mmcgrath> | yum
16:04 <    mspevack> | JeremyKatz and DaveJones in the house
16:05 <    mspevack> | and JesseKeating
16:05 <      smooge> | doughnuts
16:05 <    mspevack> | so we're likely to start in a few minutes now
16:05 <      smooge> | donuts.. mmmm
16:09 <   dwmw2_PVG> | I think we should deal with the arch build process as a separate issue from the set of arches -- change the process by all means but let it settle down and take stock before then changing the set of architectures
16:09 <   dwmw2_PVG> | anyway, must sleep.
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16:10 <         jwb> | mspevack, can i create a questions section on the wiki page that can be filled in at a later point in time (soon)?  sort of like a FAQ?
16:10 <    mspevack> | jwb: absolutely, please do
16:10 <         jwb> | mspevack, k
16:10 <    mspevack> | ok we're starting ================
16:11 <    mspevack> | topic the first -- IS/IT, fedora-admin, infrastructure, etc
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16:11 <    mspevack> | mmcgrath: can you call in?
16:11 <    mmcgrath> | yep
16:11 <    mmcgrath> | same number as yesterday?
16:11 <    mspevack> | abadger1999: can you call too?
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16:11 <    mspevack> | dgilmore: how about you?
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16:12 <         f13> | *yawn*
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16:12 <         f13> | jwb: yeah
16:13 <         jwb> | f13, see the ArchPolicy wiki page in about 10 minutes.  adding some questions that i've been asked frequently
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16:13 <         f13> | jwb: awesome!
16:13 <         f13> | did we put on there that ppc is gone?
16:13 <    mspevack> | mike -- single sign on is moving along pretty well
16:13 <    mspevack> | mike -- some compatability issues
16:13 <         jwb> | f13, no.  sparc is the only thing explicitly mentioned
16:13 <      nasrat> | f13: To ensure that Fedora can be built for any architecture, in a way that doesn't slow down the development for Fedora's Primary Architectures (x86 and x86_64).
16:13 <         f13> | ah
16:14 <         jwb> | f13, and what "gone" means is one of the questions :)
16:14 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: i can make myself available at times
16:14 <         f13> | yeah, "no longer a primary arch" as in the official fedora infrastructure will not build for it nor publish it.
16:15 <      nasrat> | f13: nice to communicate that to developers who have been working on it
16:15 <         jwb> | f13, sure.  but it's easier to answer that in my FAQ section.  just give me a few minutes
16:15 <    mmcgrath> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem2
16:16 <    mmcgrath> | and
16:16 <    mmcgrath> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem2/Schema
16:16 <      nasrat> | f13: so how does that cover say updates, etc to supported.  just dumping an arch from the infrastructure without forethought is sucky
16:16 < abadger1999> | mspevack: The conference system tells me the code from yesterday is invalid
16:16 <    mspevack> | ok, we're going to discuss is/it priorities
16:16 <    mspevack> | bill is on the white board:
16:17 <         f13> | nasrat: it was decided yesterday
16:17 <    mspevack> | topics
16:17 <      nasrat> | f13: so when do I get a mail about it
16:17 <      nasrat> | that should have been an action point
16:17 <         f13> | nasrat: it is.  chill out
16:18 <         f13> | nasrat: part of the decision was "ok we want to drop this arch, what all do we need to address to make this happen"
16:18 <         f13> | it's not "ok, it's removed from colo/builder configs.  Have fun!"
16:18 <      nasrat> | f13: that's not clear from the wiki, it's basically just ommited
16:18 <    mspevack> | we're starting with the website, fedora.redhat.com
16:18 <    mspevack> | How can we kill it>
16:18 <    mspevack> | 1) get the logs and see what people are using?
16:18 <         jwb> | nasrat, i'm asking those questions in the FAQ.  hopefully they'll get answered soon
16:18 <         jwb> | nasrat, or turned into action items
16:19 <         f13> | nasrat: thanks for pointing that out, we'll fix it.
16:19 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: port everything to fedoraproject.org  and mirror/ loadbalance it
16:19 <   dwmw2_zzz> | so we're going to stop building for _all_ the current rawhide architectures? That's a massively retrograde step for all of them, and _especially_ PPC.
16:19 <   dwmw2_zzz> | and in fact for Fedora in general, without even a big-endian machine in the mix to keep developers honest :)
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16:20 <     gregdek> | ARCH DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE YET.  X86 AND X86_64 ARE CLEARLY PRIMARY.  OTHER DISCUSSIONS IN PROGRESS.  That is all.  :)
16:20 <     gregdek> | That's what it says *proposal*.
16:20 <    mspevack> | the question is -- what do we want for our web presence?
16:20 <    dgilmore> | dwmw2_zzz: ppc and sparc will be thrown in as secondary arches and everything will be built for them. It will be driven by the people wanting those arches
16:20 <      nasrat> | gregdek: well it says it's a Policy
16:20 <   dwmw2_zzz> | gregdek: ok, thanks for clarification (albeit contradiction of what I thought I saw above about 'is gone'). But I really should be sleeping... :)
16:20 <    blizzard> | dwmw2_zzz: go do sleep!
16:21 <    mmcgrath> | https://rhn.redhat.com/rhn/help/channel-mgmt/rhn400/en/ch-custom-pkgs.jsp <-- Has fedora.rh.com links ;-)
16:21 <   dwmw2_zzz> | blizzard: :)
16:21              * | dwmw2_zzz &
16:21 <         jwb> | gregdek, f13, nasrat,, dwmw2_zzz: see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/ArchPolicy
16:21 <         jwb> | there's an FAQ section now
16:21 <    mspevack> | everything that we did yesterday, and got up on the web is proposals for f-a-b to review, and the community to discuss.
16:21 <    mspevack> | it would be best to collect questions up on the wiki like jwb is doing, or on f-a-b list
16:21 <    mspevack> | since we want to use this channel today to type about what is *currently* being discussed
16:22 <    mspevack> | which right now is our web presence, and what we want it to be
16:22 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: i see our web presence as being fedoraproject.org
16:22              * | thl is back on the keyboard now
16:22 <      jbowes> | mmcgrath: where should that link go instead? I can get it fixed up
16:22 <    mmcgrath> | jbowes: no idea :D
16:22 <    dgilmore> | i guess we will need some redirects from anything fedora.redhat.com for awhile  to find anything extrernel linking there  and have it fixed
16:23 <      jbowes> | mmcgrath: somewhere other than a 404, though
16:23 <    mspevack> | greg -- what do we need that the wiki doesn't provide us?
16:23 <    mspevack> | mmcgrath: it is our most robust site, by far
16:23 <    mspevack> | mike -- the fc6 traffic would have killed the wiki completely
16:24 <    dgilmore> | i think we need some static pages for rarely changing things
16:24 <    dgilmore> | front page should probably be static
16:24 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- is our software choice hurting scalability?
16:25 <    mspevack> | *crickets*
16:25            --- | mizmo-out is now known as mizmo
16:25 <    mspevack> | havoc pennington just walked in
16:25 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: our software choice i dont think is hurting it  but we dont have scalability right now past one box
16:25 <    mspevack> | OH MY GOD, IT'S HAVOC PENNINGTON
16:25 <      jbowes> | *applause*
16:25 <    mspevack> | ok, we're going to have to temporarily table the website discussion and come back to it later
16:26 <    mspevack> | ==========
16:26 <    mspevack> | our 10:00 topic was with pete rowley, of OpenID
16:26 <    mspevack> | to discuss openID, mugshot, and fedora
16:27 <    mspevack> | pete rowley is here, who knows a great amount about openid
16:27 <    mspevack> | and donald fischer, who works on mugshot
16:27 <    mspevack> | donald -- pete was coming by today to talk to us, do some brainstorming about openID in mugshot.
16:28 <    mspevack> | and we've been thinking about using openID or single sign on in fedora
16:28 <    mspevack> | greg -- "goal is to lower barrier of entry to fedora.  right now lots of systems, license agreement, big headache"
16:29 <    mspevack> | greg -- "we're looking for various ways to simplify that and change the way contributions to fedora community work fundamentally
16:29 <    mspevack> | we have an LDAP schema for this on the Fedora end
16:29 <    mspevack> | ultimately, it's a possibility to allow folks working on Fedora to then also easily participate in other projects that use OpenID
16:29 <    mspevack> | greg -- one compelling use case is bugzilla instances talking to each other using OpenID
16:31 <    mspevack> | *donald talks about some of the potential gnome project tie-ins*
16:33 <    mspevack> | donald -- openID can relieve a lot of the infrastructure issues that exist around letting the Fedora community truly collaborate with each other
16:34            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- current topic is openID, then IS/IT discussion
16:35 <    mspevack> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_id
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16:35 <    blizzard> | http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/OpenID
16:35 <    mspevack> | mike -- with open id integration, should we go full steam ahead with LDAP, or plan how open ID will integrate?
16:36 <    mspevack> | pete -- you should keep doing what you're doing, open ID integration should be very easy
16:36 <    mspevack> | pete on "what is open id"
16:36 <    mspevack> | user-centric identity
16:36 <    mspevack> | users are given far more control over their online identity
16:37 <    mspevack> | openid is an example of a url-based identity
16:37 <    mspevack> | your user id is a URL.
16:37 <     mdomsch> | I'd like to hear more about the security of openid
16:37 <     mdomsch> | it seems OK for relatively low-value things like blog comments
16:37 <    mspevack> | mdomsch: we'll ask about it when he's done with his overview
16:37 <     mdomsch> | but I'm not yet convinced for higher-value things
16:38              * | mspevack is not going to try to type all ofpete's open ID description
16:38 <    mspevack> | find info on the web and paste it into channel :-)
16:38 <    mspevack> | mdomsch: you're on the call, right?  I'll throw it to you for a question shortly :-)
16:39 <    mspevack> | pete -- open id is secure up to a point
16:39 <    mspevack> | major flaw:
16:39 <    mspevack> | you're trusting the IDP not to lie to you
16:39              * | mmcgrath has to step away for a minute.
16:39 <    mspevack> | IDP == identity provider
16:40 <     mdomsch> | mspevack, I'm here, but pete's far from the phone mic
16:40 <    mspevack> | pete -- you need to use an authentication scheme that doesn't put your credentials on the wire
16:40 <    mspevack> | mdomsch: he's doubled his volume -- i'll just try to type as fast as i can
16:41 <    mspevack> | basically you have your IDPs, but you need some level of secure auth on top of them
16:41 <    mspevack> | we would need to research some folks who are using OpenID and see what their implementations are
16:41 <    mspevack> | dave -- sounds like it would be good for passing stuff around bugzilla, but not for uber-sensitive data
16:41 <    mspevack> | bill -- we need some of the profile exchange.  for things like bugs, you would want an email address or other information
16:42 <    mspevack> | if fedora acts as the identity provider, there's a lot of ways to be secure about the setup
16:42 <    mspevack> | pete -- opportunity for Fedora to deploy openID in a secure manner and show everyone else how to do it
16:43 <    mspevack> | pete -- certificate-based auth is not very difficult or inconvenient
16:44 <    mspevack> | bill -- for what fedora would be using it for, we would almost certainly want to be our own IDP
16:44              * | mmcgrath is back
16:45 <    mspevack> | bill -- what sort of things we need stronger auth for -- basically CVS and build system
16:45            --> | mdomsch_ (Matt_Domsch) [n=Matt_Dom@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
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16:46 <    mspevack> | greg -- we're going to continue down ldap and single sign on anyway, so maybe we use OpenID for some of that.  but there might be other places where we need some stronger auth, and openID might not be right for that
16:47 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- i'm confused about the role openID plays
16:47 <         f13> | jwb: I've tried to answer some of the questions.
16:47 <    mspevack> | is it trying to solve the "many accounts" problem?  The auth problem? etc
16:47 <    mspevack> | pete -- it's trying to solve the single sign on problem
16:47 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- let's take this use case.  i'm firing off a build from the command line.  can the auth still take place using openid?
16:47 <         jwb> | f13, k i'll take a look
16:48            <-- | markmc has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:49 <    mspevack> | *general talk around open ID*
16:51 <    mspevack> | donald -- 2 kind of use cases.  one is openID for fedora developers
16:52 <    mspevack> | another is for fedora users -- when you install Fedora, you can create an openID and all of a sudden you've got connections in user-land between different groups
16:52 <    mspevack> | bill -- in firstboot you create your "openid/fedora account" and then later when you want to contribute to Fedora (or some other openID-based project), you're all set
16:54 <    mspevack> | greg -- "at what point do we think it's smart to start playing with it?  we're going down the path of LDAP based on fedora directory right now"
16:54 <    mspevack> | what do you mean by ldap?
16:54 <    mspevack> | greg -- we're setting up fedora directory server for people with FP accounts
16:54 <    mspevack> | what's on it?
16:54 <    mspevack> | mike -- right now nothing, but it will be to replace the current accounting database
16:54 <    mspevack> | we have some single sign on stuff, through apache auth to postgres backend
16:54 <    mspevack> | we're hoping that LDAP will replace everything in current accounting system
16:55 <    mspevack> | main sticking point has been the RHAT bugzilla instance
16:55 <    mspevack> | pete -- openid doesn't affect your ldap plans.
16:55 <    mspevack> | whatever happens in the future with openid will still be compatible with storing in LDAP
16:55 <    mspevack> | greg -- "do we want to try being and openID provider, and in what timeframe"
16:55 <    mspevack> | warren -- "sounds like it would just be another interface"
16:55 <    mspevack> | everyone talks at once
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16:58 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: thanks for keeping good notes, its hard to hear whats going on at times.
16:58 <    mspevack> | no problem
16:58 <    mspevack> | *general chatter right now*
16:59 <    mspevack> | about the potential of an openID profile that can tell you "in Fedora, I updated a bugs and did a checkin.  In project Foo I did Bar" etc
17:00 <    mspevack> | *many jokes about your Fedora OpenID world coming into contact with the "teenage girl" internet world
17:00 <         jrb> | mspevack: is it something that other projects would buy into?
17:01 <    mdomsch_> | fedora women !
17:01 <    mspevack> | jrb: what do you mean by other projects?
17:01 <    mspevack> | bill -- from fedora's perspective, what we'd like to do is get SSO/ldap up first
17:01 <    blizzard> | girlzz
17:01 <    mspevack> | bill -- and then work on adding openid
17:01 <         jrb> | mspevack: eg, gnome
17:01 <    mspevack> | jrb: donald has mentioned gnome's "echelon" project several times
17:01 <    mspevack> | jrb: i'm not familiar with it, but i assume you probably are?
17:02 <         jrb> | never heard of it
17:02 <         jrb> | oh
17:02 <         jrb> | no
17:02 <         jrb> | that's something a little different
17:02 <    mspevack> | mdomsch_: :)
17:03 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- example case
17:03 <         jrb> | mspevack: that's more like an uber planet/cia thing: http://live.gnome.org/Boston2006/EchelonForGnome
17:03 <    mspevack> | fedora open id -- build system, cvs etc.  but you're also a gnome developer
17:03 <         jrb> | mspevack: I was more interested in reusing identity for the gnome servers and infrastructure
17:03 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- some of the auth mechanisms for both projects are similar
17:03 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- and maybe things can be combined
17:03 <    mspevack> | jrb -- i think jeremy just hit on your point
17:04 <    mspevack> | jrb: but the fact is, if Fedora moves forward with openID, it gives us the chance to convince others to do so as well.  that would in theory be part of the benefit
17:05              * | mspevack wants to see the Fedora SSO/LDAP become more of a reality.  Whether or not OpenID is the means to that End, or a part of the solution, matters less to me.  Making things easier for Fedora contributors is the end goal.
17:05 <    mspevack> | that's just my opinion -- but openID does *sound* cool
17:05 <         jrb> | mspevack: yeah.  We also have this nice smart-card system too...
17:05 <      wwoods> | smart cards for everyone! wheee!
17:05 <    mspevack> | pete -- an IDP is limited in what it can assert
17:05 <    mspevack> | pete -- it can only assert what it has contorl over
17:06 <    mspevack> | pete -- if my IDP is scammer.org, i won't be able to assert authority over any URL that is whitehat.org
17:07 <    mspevack> | greg -- path forward for now is to finish SSO based on F Directory Server
17:07 <    mspevack> | greg -- pete and mike need to get in touch via email, greg is doing that now
17:07 <    mspevack> | *sounds like this is wrapping up*
17:07 <    mspevack> | and then we'll get back to IS/IT in general for Fedora shortly
17:08 <    mspevack> | mike -- question about account system timeline.  when do we want it?
17:08 <    mspevack> | greg -- what's the critical path for infrastructure?
17:09 <    mspevack> | mike -- time and resources
17:10 <    blizzard> | "I'd give my left arm to play drums for def lepard"
17:11 <    mspevack> | max -- we need to spend the next hour coming up with our infrastructure priorities
17:11 <    mspevack> | ===== back at 11:15 ===========
17:11              * | mmcgrath gets notes about what all Infrastructure is up to.
17:11            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- topic is fedora infrastructure priorities
17:12 <    mdomsch_> | mspevack, FYI, one more 1U PE1950 is on its way to PHX to replace the dead hammer box
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17:13 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: i was going to call in for this part but cant
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17:14 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: the conference was full
17:16 <    mspevack> | who is on the phone?
17:16              * | mdomsch_ coming back...
17:17 <    mspevack> | mike, toshio, matt
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17:18 <  green_west> | okay so we are back
17:18 <  green_west> | Max: what do we want from a fedora web presence
17:18 <  green_west> | Greg: Project Hosting?
17:18 <  green_west> | Greg: We need to kill fedora.redhat.com and part of that is figuring out where we are going to move things and to build new things
17:19 <  green_west> | Jesse: All the docs are there, so we need to move those somewhere
17:19 <  green_west> | Notting: If we kill f.r.c Docs has no static place to put their content
17:20 <  green_west> | Max: There needs to be a place where static content lives
17:20 <  green_west> | Blizzard: I like the mozilla model, front page has a static, polished layout, the rest of like wiki
17:21 <  green_west> | Misc: content managment systems are a royal pain
17:21 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: docs.fedoraproject.org  would be a good place for docs
17:23 <  green_west> | Misc chatter about static content in front of wiki and scaling the wiki
17:23 <  green_west> | McGrath: We need a storage backend for the wiki
17:23 <      wwoods> | we paid for a professional fp.o redesign, and we have photoshop files laying around unused from that
17:25 <  green_west> | Blizzard: there are only a few things that visitors to fp.o initially need, we should target those needs with a static layout
17:25 <  green_west> | wwoods: point taken, talking about that
17:25 <       iWolf> | Just want to throw my +1 for making the frequently used info static.
17:26 <      wwoods> | green_west: I'll again mention that I know (read: am married to) a graphic designer who could work on that for cheap
17:26 <  green_west> | Jesse: some pages are static and immutable, those should be static anyway
17:26 <    blizzard> | http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/
17:26 <    blizzard> | that's the mozilla page
17:26 <  green_west> | Max: so we need a two-tiered solution, one with static content on the front few pages, and then a wiki on the back for the rest of out needs
17:27 <  green_west> | Blizzard: We need to talk about this during the next Board meeting and just git er done
17:28 <  green_west> | Jesse: This isn't stopping us from merging core and extras, why is this a priority
17:28 <  green_west> | All: Because it is a high value action
17:29 <  green_west> | General Consensus is we need a full time fedora infrastructure person on the red hat payroll
17:29 <    mmcgrath> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Schedule
17:30 <    mdomsch_> | mirrors aren't linked directly from front page - links only to download.f.r.c ;-(
17:31 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: can be fixed
17:32 <  green_west> | okay we are looking at the infrastructure schedule and trying to figure out tactical vs. strategic items
17:32 <  green_west> | ALL: Random Chatter
17:33 <  green_west> | Okay so here are the Line Items of what we have so far:
17:33 <  green_west> | 1. Web Site Redesign
17:33 <  green_west> | 2. Single Sign On / FDS and later OpenID
17:34 <  green_west> | 3. Build System and Packaging DB
17:34 <  green_west> | 4. Bugzilla Integration
17:34 <  green_west> | 5. Project Hosting
17:34 <  green_west> | (these are not prioritized)
17:35 <  green_west> | GLUMP!!!!!
17:35 <    blizzard> | best word _ever_
17:35 <  green_west> | it even auto updates!
17:35 <    blizzard> | glumpdates!
17:36 <         jrb> | mspevack: any chance of any cross-over with the GNOME infrastructure?
17:36 <  green_west> | Okay, so there is discussion about what can be done in parallel to achieve the goals
17:36 <  green_west> | Warren: Let's make a dep chart
17:36 <    blizzard> | jrb: I suspect the other way around
17:36 <         jrb> | blizzard: what do you mean?
17:36 <  green_west> | gnome integrates with us!!!
17:37 <  green_west> | we are the keymasters
17:37 <         jrb> | gnome -> gatekeeper then?
17:37 <    blizzard> | jrb: lots of stuff around auth and ldap and build systems, etc
17:37              * | wwoods vinz clortho, keymaster of gozer
17:38 <  green_west> | Blizzard: we need to get to a point where we eliminate mail for systems management
17:38 <  green_west> | Blizzard: if we develop better information systems, we become more efficient and less annoyed
17:39 <  green_west> | Max: Okay, so if we hired someone now, what order of priority do they have
17:39 <  green_west> | 1. Build System
17:39            <-- | graveyard has quit ()
17:39 <  green_west> | 2. Account System
17:40 <  green_west> | 3. Maintainability
17:42 <  green_west> | More talk about the website
17:42 <  green_west> | Greg: no one ever wants to touch it though, its always someone elses problem
17:43 <  green_west> | Jesse: We need one IT person and another webmaster type person
17:44 <      glezos> | Note: There are quite a few (new) people in the Infrastructure/Docs teams that would like to help with the new website and tools. They need guidance and probably some core libraries though to work with.
17:45 <  green_west> | glezos: yes, we are talking about getting someone to lead this effort
17:45 <  green_west> | someone who is paid and accountable
17:45 <  green_west> | Greg: We have been talking with seth to figure out what the most accessed pages are and turn them to static content and deploy them in a scalable fashion
17:45 <      glezos> | green_west, that would be great and from what I've seen so far, *very* necessary.
17:46 <  green_west> | glezos: we are basically trying to justify hiring someone to do this
17:46 <        couf> | glezos: +1
17:47 <  green_west> | okay so here is the goal
17:47 <  green_west> | for website
17:48 <  green_west> | Identify Key People and bring them together to rethink/redesign the site
17:48 <  green_west> | Blizzard: we need a wikimaster
17:50 <      glezos> | green_west, roger that. I think the whole websites-process needs some bootstrapping from an experienced person, ie the building of the core functionality (ACLs, Plone interaction, communication with various teams, decide what content should be put on what tool, etc). After that the community can chip in more easily I think. (eof)
17:51 <  green_west> | glezos: yeah, we are trying to figure out what the needs and roles are right now
17:51 <  green_west> | Okay, so consensus on website: get a group to rethink site, get a wikimaster, redesign
17:52 <  green_west> | Next: Single Sign On
17:52 <  green_west> | McGrath: We can get SSO working pretty quickly aside from bugzilla
17:52 <    mmcgrath> | Did I say that :D?
17:52 <  green_west> | That will be done
17:53 <       iWolf> | mmcgrath: :)
17:53 <  green_west> | hahahaha
17:53 <  green_west> | Next: Maintainability of Infrastructure
17:53 <  green_west> | We need hardware
17:54 <  green_west> | We need a new rack to put everything in
17:54 <      wwoods> | I'm sure gregdek is itchin' to talk about a fedora bugzilla instance... has that already come up?
17:54 <    dgilmore> | We need to xenifiy quite a few things to allow for systems to be brought up and taken down as needed
17:54 <  green_west> | Jeremy: We need to continue to centralize our hosting
17:55 <  green_west> | McGrath: Xen instances for eveything
17:55 <  green_west> | Notting: You trust Xen more than I do
17:55 <  green_west> | Blizzard: We can look at Amazon SSS
17:56 <  green_west> | Jeremy: We need alot of centralized storage in order to maintain a consistent view of the package universe for the build system
17:56            --- | glezos is now known as glezos_afk
17:57 <  green_west> | Jesse: mirror admin self service
17:57            --> | graveyard (Ruben Kerkhof) [n=graveyar@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
17:58              * | nirik wonders if anything ever came of bouncer or other better mirror tracking/management.
18:00 <  green_west> | Notting: Project Hosting
18:00 <  green_west> | First, general hosting space for fedora-* projects
18:01 <  green_west> | do we want to provide storage space, bugzilla, other service aside from mailing lists
18:01 <  green_west> | Okay, so the consensus is to provide these services for other projects
18:02 <  green_west> | we want to centralize information and services as much as possible
18:02 <  green_west> | Jesse: what about rolling devel space for other arches?
18:03 <  green_west> | people think it will be too much bandwidth for mirroring
18:03 <  green_west> | Blizzard: since those download counts are small, why mirror?
18:04 <  green_west> | Jeremy: because of locality of download
18:04 <  green_west> | Blizzard: other option is for them to have their own hosting
18:05 <  green_west> | Jesse: how do those arches spin isos then
18:05 <  green_west> | Jesse: via pungi and tools which will be made available
18:06 <  green_west> | Jeremy: let's make then do it the same way we do
18:06 <  green_west> | PAIN!!!
18:06              * | mdomsch_ drops off the call for a bit
18:06 <  green_west> | Warren: we already spoke about many of these action items, and infrastructure has a schedule already
18:07 <  green_west> | there other 2 things are content management, which GDK will take responsibility for
18:07 <  green_west> | Notting: wait, back to hosting stuff
18:08 <  green_west> | Notting: we need to move things off old rh build systems urgently
18:09 <  green_west> | Notting: especially all the translation stuff
18:09 <  green_west> | Notting: move cvs root to cvs.fedora
18:10 <  green_west> | add i18n group to account system
18:10 <  green_west> | move accounts from old cvs root, have people move their accounts
18:11 <  green_west> | move content
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18:13 <  green_west> | since this machine currently serves as hosting for tons of this stuff anyway to the outside, we should just move it to the fedora infrastructure
18:14 <  green_west> | Notting Still: There are also other features of this system, like granting certain translators permissions to create groups, etc, which need to be translated
18:14            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- return 1:30
18:14 <    mspevack> | ================= lunch, back 1:30 =========================
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19:30 <    mspevack> | ping
19:30 <    mspevack> | i guess i'm still here
19:30 <    mspevack> | ok, we're about to get started again
19:31            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- release methodology (freezes, updates, lifecycle, branding, distro building)
19:33 <    mspevack> | skvidal: would you like to call in?  we'll be better than we were yesterday
19:33 <    mspevack> | mdomsch_: you too
19:33 <    mspevack> | get some board members on the phone if we can
19:34 <    mdomsch_> | yes, in ~2min, pls start w/o me
19:34 <    mspevack> | ok == STARTING NOW ==
19:34 <    mspevack> | Jesse has the floor
19:34 <    mspevack> | mspevack will continue to be IRC bitch
19:34 <    mspevack> | gregdek will continue to be main note taking guy
19:35 <     gregdek> | thx :)
19:35 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: i know some in extars wont like it  but I feel we have to stop the rolling release for everything but the development tree
19:36 <    mspevack> | gregdek: if you didn't do such a good job, we'd stop asking :-)
19:36 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: donttell him that :D
19:36 <    mspevack> | dgilmore: jesse seems to agree
19:37 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- this goes back to our platform discussion yesterday
19:37 <    mdomsch_> | mspevack, concall is at capacity; can't get in
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19:37 <    mspevack> | mdomsch_: i'll bump it up again
19:37 <    mspevack> | i upped it to 7 people
19:38 <    mdomsch_> | nope
19:38 <    mspevack> | bill -- what are we trying to define?  How we define and build something that we release at release time?
19:38 <    mspevack> | greg -- "what does an initial release of Fedora version Foo look like, and how is it maintained"
19:38 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "what do we as FP want to make as our initial spin?"
19:38 <    mspevack> | jesse -- it won't be the size of what Core 6 was
19:39 <    mspevack> | mdomsch_: it's up to 10 people
19:39              * | mmcgrath still prefers the idea of core and smaller 'modular' sub projects.
19:39 <      wwoods> | FP = Fedora Platform?
19:39 <    mspevack> | greg -- single platform or multiple?  greg thinks multiple with a common base
19:39 <    mspevack> | wwoods: in that case, FP == Fedora project
19:39 <    mmcgrath> | but that never really worked in reality.
19:39 <    mspevack> | mmcgrath: pls expand
19:39            --> | mether (Rahul Sundaram) [n=ask@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
19:40 <    mspevack> | phone -- "as non RH person, like the idea of Core being a small initial set of stuff, with other pieces that can be placed on top.
19:41 <    mspevack> | bill -- as Fedora Project being spun by Jesse, does he want to make it possible for others to spin stuff and call it Fedora?
19:41 <         thl> | dgilmore, i agree with " i know some in extars wont like it  but I feel we have to stop the rolling release for everything but the development tree", nervertheless there seems to be a strong interest in a "rolling release" model -- could we provide both somehow?
19:41 <    dgilmore> | that being gcc, kernel and glibc?  and things needed by those?
19:41 <    mspevack> | jesse -- we want people to be able to make spins of packages in the FU signed by fedora keys and call it fedora
19:41            <-- | gregdek has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:41 <    mspevack> | jesse -- part of that is making sure they have a fedora standard base, etc.
19:42 <    mspevack> | Fedora Standard Base is a subset of the "Fedora Platform"
19:42 <    dgilmore> | thl: they could if they follow development
19:42 <    mspevack> | bill -- should everything on fp.o's fedora 7 torrent be bulit by Jesse?
19:42 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "i don't think that's necessary"
19:42 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- "i don't think that scales"
19:42 <    dgilmore> | thl: we would need a freeze at release time to get iso's etc done
19:43 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- says something very similar
19:43 <    dgilmore> | after that it would be updates
19:43 <         thl> | dgilmore, many people won't touch it as long as we tell them "might eat babys"
19:43 <    mspevack> | 1) Desktop Gnome
19:43 <    dgilmore> | thl: true  and at times it eats babies and other things.
19:43 <    mspevack> | 2) LAMP
19:43 <    mspevack> | 3) Java?
19:43 <    dgilmore> | Desktop KDE
19:44 <    mspevack> | *nod*
19:44 <    dgilmore> | Development
19:44 <    mspevack> | dgilmore: make it easy for people to put together their own recipies, whatever it is
19:44 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: sure
19:44 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- desktop environment with Java stack, eclipse, jboss.  here's your Fedora Java developer workstation
19:45 <     skvidal> | hey, cool - now we can  get those java rpm bindings going
19:45 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: we dont have the infrastructure for on demand iso's
19:45 <      jbowes> | skvidal: +1
19:45 <     skvidal> | jbowes: haha
19:45 <    mdomsch_> | dgilmore, once pungi exists, that'll help
19:46 <     skvidal> | jbowes: I forgot to close the </sarcasm> tag
19:46 <      jbowes> | skvidal: you joke, but i'd use em!
19:46 <     skvidal> | jbowes: you're deeply broken
19:46 <      jbowes> | skvidal: jum is coming. march '07
19:46 <     skvidal> | jbowes: I dare you
19:46 <     skvidal> | :)
19:46 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: yeah   what would be cool is a web interface  i select what i want and get an email with a download link once an iso is created fro me
19:46 <    mspevack> | bill -- the question is, if we are going down this road with "random" spins, do we remove the concept of self-hosting?
19:46 <    mdomsch_> | not all spins need to be self-hosting
19:46 <    mspevack> | jesse -- I think so.  We must.  As long as anaconda can reach the entire "Fedora universe"
19:47 <      warren> | Fedora Everything Blue-Ray!
19:47 <    mdomsch_> | soon and very soon
19:47 <    mspevack> | Fedora Source RPM spin
19:47 <    mmcgrath> | Blue-Ray orbital laser
19:48 <      warren> | mmcgrath, you may buy only 80k of them
19:48 <      jbowes> | skvidal: well, probably more like April 1 '07
19:48 <     skvidal> | jbowes: yes
19:49 <    dgilmore> | i would say we want to provide a defult set of an installable tree
19:49 <    dgilmore> | say a server install and a desktop install
19:49 <    mdomsch_> | dgilmore, but derivatives may delete and add components from rest of Universe as they need
19:50 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: sure they can.
19:50 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: some people will just want a desktop install  what we provide is good enough
19:50 <    mspevack> | jesse -- on demand ISOs is further in the future.
19:51 <    dgilmore> | anything else in the universe can be installed latter  thats what yum and pirut are for
19:51 <      warren> | dgilmore, we need to build the ability to create that easily first.  Then it would be relatively easy to implement the on demand tool.
19:51 <    dgilmore> | warren: i agree
19:51 <    mspevack> | jesse -- whatever tool we use to create our release will be publicly available, so anyone else can make a release and we can host torrents.
19:51 <    mspevack> | but that's not quite yet on-demand isos.
19:52 <    dgilmore> | we could use the most commonally selected components  to make up some defualt offerings
19:53 <    mspevack> | *sidetracked into a livecd debate*
19:54 <       nirik> | would it be ok to call it Fedora X if all the packages assembled were from fedora buildsys and not if someone adds other packages to it? Just a thought for naming...
19:54 < abadger1999> | livecd note: Just before FC6, I was able to create a working livecd with kadischi but not with pilgrim.  That could have changed with FC6 updates.
19:55 < abadger1999> | thl: I think rolling releases are going to become more important to people.  Especially if we start pegging our releases to a single component (like GNOME).
19:55 <    mspevack> | bill -- who is accountable for deciding what goes into the "Gnome Desktop"
19:56 < abadger1999> | If XFCE is consistently 1.5 months after the GNOME release, for instance, the xfce developers will want to get that into the post-release stable tree.
19:56 <    mspevack> | bill -- for example
19:56 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: Gnome project
19:56 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: what gnome provides as their desktop we provide as their desktop
19:56 <    mspevack> | gregdek -- desktop and server
19:57 <    mspevack> | dgilmore -- we mean "the package manifest that is the "Fedora Desktop (Gnome)" build, for example.
19:57 <       nirik> | abadger1999: Xfce is unfortunately not very consistant about their release dates. :) It's ready when it's ready... but that only adds to your point I think. ;)
19:57 <         thl> | abadger1999, agreed, but on the other hand some people want not that much updates as they bear the risk of breakage and are big in download; thus we should try to gie something to those that want the "classical model of a stable release" and another solution ("altrenatives") that is not that risky as devel, but still rolling release
19:57 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: it would be whatever is needed by the gnome desktop as provided by gnome.  nothing more nothing less
19:59 <    dgilmore> | a server image would have all the server things. postfix sendmail exim, mysql postgresql.  which could  be guided by a Fedora Universe steeing committe
19:59              * | dgilmore needs to learn to spell
20:00 <    mspevack> | gregdek -- central case is having a spin at the time the initial release goes gold.  We've got "Fedora 7" and that consists of all the packages that are "Gold" in time.  Fedora base, Desktop, server, and a lot of extras.  All of that goes into some set of CDs.
20:01 <    dgilmore> | yep
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20:01 <    mdomsch_> | dgilmore, are a lot of folks disliking the "rolling extras" model?
20:01 <    mdomsch_> | that epel won't take care of?
20:01 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: there is quite a few who want to keep it
20:02 <    mdomsch_> | given how often FC is released, I don't personally have a problem with rolling extras
20:02 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: i personally feel we cant
20:02 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: there will be no more extras
20:02 <    dgilmore> | there will be only Fedora
20:02 <    mspevack> | bill -- pungi needs to divorce stage 1, stage 2, boot.img
20:02 <    mspevack> | from the tree
20:02 <    mdomsch_> | one could argue an intermediate updates-testing stage would be nice
20:03 <    mspevack> | mdomsch_: seth is getting off if you want to try to get on
20:03 <     skvidal> | mdomsch_: enjoy
20:03 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: it would be beneficial
20:03 <     skvidal> | mspevack: say bye to everyone for me
20:03              * | mdomsch_ is on
20:03 <    mspevack> | jesse -- we all agree that we will have a platform, and the FSB will be a part of that.
20:03 <    mspevack> | FSB is the least number of packages you can have and call it Fedora
20:06            --> | Panzerboy (Stelian Iancu) [n=stelian@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
20:06 < abadger1999> | dgilmroe: We're still going to release a F.Platform out of the Fedora Universe.  We could release a F.Desktop, F.Core, F.Whatever made up of a selected group of packages that want to stabilize for a release while the rest of F.Universe rolls on.  (Just one alternative)
20:07 < abadger1999> | Sorry, s/dgilmroe/dgilmore/.
20:07 <    mspevack> | branding debate -- are we using the term Fedora as a weapon to enforce quality control or not
20:07 < ChitleshGoo> | F.Kde (for example) too ?
20:07 <    dgilmore> | abadger1999: sure we can
20:08 <       quaid> | fedora-as-branding-weapon++ :)
20:08 < ChitleshGoo> | +1 fedora-as-branding-weapon
20:09 <       nirik> | if all the packages used are "offically built" Fedora packages, shouldn't you be able to call any collection of them Fedora? Or you mean get approval to do so?
20:10 < ChitleshGoo> | nirik: once approved, i guess it can be called fedora, (correct me if i'm wrong)
20:10 <    mspevack> | that's what there is some argument about, nirik
20:11 <    mspevack> | what if someone makes a pile of Fedora packages, but it doesn't boot, or etc.
20:11 <    mspevack> | these are some of the complaints
20:11 <       nirik> | ok, just wanting to clarify... branding as a weapon could mean lots of things. ;)
20:11              * | mmcgrath likes where this discussion is headed...
20:11 < ChitleshGoo> | +1 mspevack e.g geda packages
20:11 <    mspevack> | greg -- "the brand experience of Fedora is taking whatever you want from the Fedora Universe and calling it Fedora"
20:11 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: if its created with our super install tree creation tool it should boot and be called fedora
20:12 <    dgilmore> | i use my lame  i want an image tool  then no
20:13              * | mmcgrath ponders a webcast :D
20:14 <    mspevack> | gregdek -- need 3 simple rules
20:15 <    mspevack> | 1) "official" Fedora spins
20:15 <    mspevack> | nevermind...
20:15 <    mspevack> | this conversation is nearly impossible to summarize on IRC
20:15 <    mspevack> | it's getting very philosphical
20:15 <    mdomsch_> | defer decision of who is blessed to the Board
20:15              * | nirik guesses the 3 simple rules aren't all that simple. ;)
20:16 <    mspevack> | the idea of the FSB is basically being killed right now
20:16 <    mmcgrath> | heh
20:16 <    mspevack> | and what is gaining momentum is "here's the blessed Fedora builds"
20:16 <    mspevack> | that maybe the Board has endorsed
20:16 <    mspevack> | there's the "Fedora Remixes" that folks in the community are building, maybe we never hear about it, etc.
20:17 <    mspevack> | and then there's the stuff that "cannot ever be called Fedora" which is the person who takes Fedora packages, adds in livna, and spins an iso.
20:17 <    mdomsch_> | orbital lazer control included in FSB?
20:17 <    mspevack> | that's an attempt at summary
20:18 <    mspevack> | and the fedora remixes are likely to bubble up and get blessed
20:20 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: whats the agenda for the rest of the day?
20:20 <    mspevack> | 5 minute break
20:20 <    mspevack> | next is:
20:20 <       quaid> | that seems like a nice model
20:20 <    mspevack> | freezes, lifecycle, updates
20:21 <    mspevack> | what we just covered was "distro building, flavors, a bit on governance"
20:22 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: governece by FUSCo :D
20:23 <         thl> | dgilmore, how about FUDSCo ? (no, I don't know what the "d" could stand for)
20:24              * | thl afk now
20:24 <         thl> | hae a nice summit
20:24              * | wwoods forms an anti-Fedora Universe splinter group, Stop The Fedora Universe
20:24 <    mspevack> | Fedora Universe Comittee
20:24            <-- | warren has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:24              * | mspevack coughs
20:24 <    mmcgrath> | heh
20:24            --- | You're now known as thl_afk
20:25 <       quaid> | oh, yeah, now that is acronym I can really get behind
20:25 <      mether> | quaid: fedora universe and documentation steering committee?
20:26 <       quaid> | FUCSo I mean
20:26 <       quaid> | Fedora Universe Committee for Steering and Organizing
20:27 <       quaid> | Fedora Universe Committe Unite!
20:27 <       quaid> | FUCU
20:29 <    mspevack> | ok, back to order ====================
20:29 <    mspevack> | Jesse still has the floor
20:29 <    mspevack> | freezes, lifecycle (Legacy), updates
20:30 <    mspevack> | lmacken: can you get on the phone?
20:30 <@greendiseas> | he is on the phone
20:30 <    mspevack> | k
20:30 <     lmacken> | yep yep
20:31 <    mspevack> | .... and here we go.
20:32 <    mspevack> | jesse -- freezes updates, lifecycles, and rawhide.  oh my!
20:32 <    mspevack> | how do we manage freezes
20:32 <    mspevack> | what do updates look like in a rolling/not rolling universe
20:32 <    mspevack> | what's lifecycle look like?
20:32 <    mspevack> | what's rawhide look like?
20:32 <    mspevack> | jesse -- currently we gather everything that's in core collections
20:32 <    mspevack> | we drop it in directory
20:32 <    mspevack> | we run some stuff
20:32            --> | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
20:32 <    mspevack> | we sync it to the world
20:33 <    mspevack> | it takes a long time, just with our package set
20:33 <    mspevack> | it's got lots of problems
20:33 <    mspevack> | the user experience pretty much sucks, but because rawhide is a snapshot in time, so be it.
20:33 <    mspevack> | ananconda doesn't always work, so you can't always do a direct rawhide install
20:33 <    mspevack> | rawhide spin is nothing more than create repo call
20:34 <    mspevack> | jeremy
20:34 <    mspevack> | rawhide is a collection of packages
20:34 <    mspevack> | installer is divorced from packaged set as much as humanly possible -- right now pretty close
20:34 <    mspevack> | packages go out at whatever frequency
20:34 <    mspevack> | daily installer images
20:34 <    mspevack> | you point them at a tree
20:36 <    mspevack> | GOAL -- divorce installer from package set
20:36            <-- | wilee has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:36 <    mspevack> | you can use a known good installer against any package set
20:36 <    mspevack> | rawhide is just a collection of packages
20:36 <    mspevack> | and we provide a daily installer image "basically a rawhide installer" that you point at a tree
20:37 <    mspevack> | rawhide == "all the latest built packages in Fedora Universe"
20:37 <    mspevack> | rawhide will be pushed at fixed times
20:37 <    mspevack> | with ability to do an emergency push
20:37 <      warren> | yay!
20:38 <    mspevack> | and then there will be a rawhide installer
20:39 <    mspevack> | rawhide is a rolling development release
20:41 <      wwoods> | pushed 'at fixed times' - what sort of frequency? Weekly? Monthly? I assume it'd have to pass a few cursory install checks before it would get pushed?
20:41 <    mspevack> | wwoods: daily, i think
20:41              * | mspevack asks
20:41 <      wwoods> | ah, okay
20:42 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "fixed times" means "at least daily, possibly faster"
20:42            <-- | craigt has quit ("Leaving")
20:43 <      warren> | jesse -- In the past extras was built against yesterday's rawhide (sometimes problematic)
20:43 <      warren> | Now everything will be built in the same place.
20:43 <      warren> | (me: yay!!!)
20:43 <    mspevack> | open question -- signing of packages
20:44 <    mmcgrath> | good question.
20:44 <    mspevack> | jesse -- is everyone happy with the future of rawhide?
20:44 <     lmacken> | signing server
20:44 <    mspevack> | issue with signing server -- not necessarily every piece of it is OSS
20:44 <    mspevack> | someone mentioned nCipher
20:45 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: serial console access with a small handful of people able to sign. perhaps 3 or 4
20:45 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: If we do go the 'respin' route.  Who's going to sign those?
20:45 <    mspevack> | keep packages around "for a while" that have gone into rawhide
20:45 <    mspevack> | you mean, custom people who build an ISO out of the FU?
20:46 <    mspevack> | all those packages will already be signed
20:46 <      warren> | Keep packages around "for a while", especially the ones that went public.
20:46 <    mspevack> | warren: i already wrote that :-)
20:46 <      warren> | oh
20:46 <    mmcgrath> | k
20:47 <       nirik> | would be nice if there were signers spread out in diffrent timezones and enough to where waiting on them wasn't a bottleneck...
20:47 <    mspevack> | nirik: in theory signing will be automated
20:47 <    mspevack> | if you can trust everything that goes into the build system
20:47 <       nirik> | ah, cool.
20:47 <    mspevack> | then you can have a signing server
20:47 <    mmcgrath> | hmm
20:47 <    mspevack> | but if you can't trust everything that goes into the build system, you can't.
20:47 <      warren> | nirik, signing server allows abstraction of the master signing from the developers.
20:47 <    mspevack> | isn't that the whole point of the signing server?
20:48 <    mspevack> | NEW TOPIC -- export control
20:48 <      warren> | nirik, theory: developers login to (something), authenticate with their personal (something) key, which then signs using the real key.
20:48 <    mspevack> | Fedora has to inform the legal team:
20:48 <    mspevack> | 1) we're making a release
20:48 <    mspevack> | 2) we're not adding any new crypto stuff
20:48 <    mspevack> | 3) they make a filing
20:48 <    mspevack> | bill -- "#2 will hurt!"
20:49 <       nirik> | warren: that woud be great... then developer would control when a package was signed and released?
20:49 <      warren> | nirik, and announced with the update, yes.
20:50 <      warren> | nirik, details we still have to figure out, and implementation...
20:50 <       nirik> | cool.
20:50 <    mspevack> | so, there's an action item here for legal team, which max owns)
20:50 <    mspevack> | NEW TOPIC -- freezes
20:50 <    mspevack> | one of the reasons why we are so adamant about being able to tag packages and have collection inheritance and get stuff out of buildsys based on a collection tag is so that we can have sane freezes
20:51 <      warren> | (freezes necessary to do a release)
20:51 <    mspevack> | internall -- we have a collection, say dist-fc6.  when you build, it's built against that and then tagged for it.  so on so forth.  that's UNFROZEN
20:51 <    mspevack> | you know what, i don't think I need to type all the "here's how we've always done stuff" stuff
20:52 <    mspevack> | *jesse speaks about how we do builds*
20:52 <      warren> | *Current way of doing things, manually moving packages during a freeze, works only for a small set of people.*
20:53 <    mspevack> | packages are tagged into collections
20:54 <    mspevack> | trees are built based on a collection that all has the same tag
20:55 <      warren> | *New way: Do not freeze entire thing at once, people do not stop creating due to a freeze*
20:56 <      warren> | *(Optionally things after this point can be pulled in if they solve specific problems identified by (someone)*
20:56 <    mspevack> | warren: can you take over with the notes?  :_)
20:57 <      warren> | *(This is a theoretical and experimental process that we have to refine.0
20:57 <      warren> | mspevack, ok
20:57 <    mspevack> | warren: thank you :-)
20:58 <      warren> | * Theoretical debate going on whether this is a good idea or not.  davej gave the example of stable/devel kernel branches that became only one branch in 2.6.)
20:58 <      warren> | * Jesse gestured and pointed at blank whiteboard in an attempt to will his mind upon it.
21:00 <      warren> | * (Jesse is writing on board)
21:01 <      warren> | Jeremy -- We require a way to take a snapshot in time, allow things to move forward, and cherry pick things to bring into that snapshot.
21:02 <      warren> | * (jeremy talks about painful ways we did things in the past)
21:02 <      warren> | * (when six people were working on the distro)
21:02 <      warren> | * notting repressed those past painful memories.
21:03 <      warren> | * WHITEBOARD
21:03 <      warren> | Composes happen from collection tags.
21:03 <      warren> | Freeze tags are created for composes.
21:03 <      warren> | Fixes are cherry-picked from base collection tag (i.e. dist-fc7).
21:03 <      warren> | Base tag stays rolling (devel)
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21:04 <       sbarn> | is everything thats current been discussed available on the wiki in one place at the moment?
21:04 <       sbarn> | or that was discussed i should say so far
21:04 <      warren> | sbarn, not really, this is relatively new within RH itself
21:05 <       sbarn> | ok
21:06 <      warren> | * (Talking about test composes)
21:07 <    mspevack> | example:
21:07 <    mspevack> | dist-fc7 tag applies to every package built from the devel branch currently.
21:07 <       quaid> | sbarn: they've been posting the IRC logs and minutes at the end of the day, as well as folks summarizing on planet.fedoraproject.org
21:07 <    mspevack> | Test1 freeze is announced.  Date hits, we create fc7-test1 tag (freeze tag)
21:07 <    mspevack> | we tag the latest dist-fc7 packages with this freeze tag
21:07 <    mspevack> | We create a test repo of all packages tagged "fc7-test1".  QA happens on these packages, or some subset
21:07 <       sbarn> | quaid, i just saw, that, wasnt like that yesterday thanks
21:08 <    mspevack> | realistically a lot of these packages will never get looked at.
21:08 <    mspevack> | Fixes are applied to the devel branch and built.  Resulting specific package builds get tagged with "fc7-test1" at the discretion of the release team
21:08 <    mspevack> | at final release, when we announce the freeze, we create the fc-7 branch
21:09 <    mspevack> | devel begins to be tagged with the "fedora 8" tag
21:11 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: seems sane
21:12 <    mspevack> | it's all directly out of Jesse's mouth
21:12 <    mspevack> | it all needs to get run by FESCO
21:12            --> | vpv (Ville-Pekka Vainio) [i=vpivaini@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
21:12 <    mspevack> | next -- UPDATES AND LIFECYCLE (including Fedora Legacy)
21:13            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- updaes/lifecycle, Fedora Legacy
21:13 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: perhaps at say test3 point in time we tag fedora8 for devel  and have a test3 updates tree with bugfixes for fedora7
21:14 <    mspevack> | probably -- that wasn't exhaustive, it was just what I could type :-)
21:14 <    mspevack> | bill -- updates and how you handle a released Universe
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21:15 <    mspevack> | new step involved to get an updated package out for a released product
21:15 <    mspevack> | 1) build package from branch
21:16 <    mspevack> | 2) request update using tool
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21:20 <     lmacken> | i can hardly hear whoever is talking (jeremy)?
21:20 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: push tools would do the rest>
21:20 <    dgilmore> | ?
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21:22 <    mspevack> | wwoods: can you get on the call?
21:22 <    mspevack> | rex -- is updates-testing something that we want
21:23 <    mspevack> | rex -- make updates-testing part of the build root
21:23 <    mspevack> | *general confusion*
21:23 <    mspevack> | this feels like a topic that will need more discussion
21:24              * | glezos loves the *atmosphere* logging :)
21:24            --- | stickster_work is now known as stickster
21:24 <      wwoods> | mspevack: sure, I don't have the conference code though
21:24 <    mspevack> | we are going to put will on the spot and ask him about updates-testing
21:24 <    mspevack> | will:
21:25 <    mspevack> | "we talked about policy for doing updates in a recent meeting"
21:25 <       nirik> | nice features for the update tool: marking of security/bugfix, flagging to only release when dev gives final ack, etc... ;)
21:25 <    mspevack> | "basically one of the problems is that we don't have enough people to enforce any of this, but what we'd like to have happen is that if at all possible, someone should install the package and get results"
21:25 <    mspevack> | luke -- "arch maintainers (from yesterday) can be required to give acks?"
21:25 <    mspevack> | will -- "that might work"
21:26 <     lmacken> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UpdatesSystem ("ideal" workflow i came up with)
21:32 <    mspevack> | significant conversation, which will best be summarized by other later.  it's impossible to do it justice in channel, i'm sorry
21:34              * | nirik would also like to see the rss feed per package/branch... would be cool to subscribe to packages you care about and get updates fed to you...
21:34 <    mspevack> | and for the record, davej sucks.  because the kernel sucks :)
21:34 <      warren> | * Someone proposed a Love It/Hate It system like used in Mugshot for easy and quick user feedback for test updates.
21:34 <    mspevack> | i think that was jeremy
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21:35 <    blizzard> | jeremy is a h8r
21:35 <         jwb> | mspevack, for the record, that should be the kernel developers suck.  Fedora's mantra is "UPSTREAM"
21:35              * | nirik would also like to see a popcon like package for fedora, but I suppose I will have to write it myself to get anything moving there.
21:35 <      mether> | nirik: do it then?
21:36 <      warren> | * greg: How do these tools prevent gratuitous updates?
21:36 <       nirik> | in my copious free time? :)
21:37 <      warren> | * (talking about how to do automated QA in the buildsys)
21:37 <      warren> | * (post build process tests in the buildsys)
21:37 <      warren> | * Take care of the "OMG it is breaking the world" case.
21:37 <      warren> | * Build package in branch, do post-build processing, get thumbs up
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21:38 <      warren> | * Request update using tool, optional flag at build time to put it into the buildroot for building another thing that relies upon it.
21:39 <      warren> | * Fill out, Why is this being updated?  Is this security?  Bug numbers this update is closing?  (for possible automatic closing)  Click button to push update.
21:39 <      warren> | * Behind the scenes, release team: somebody wants to push update, please sign & move & push
21:41 <      warren> | * Repo management (like pup and pirut) is coming, allowing users to enable updates-testing and do other things.
21:41 <      warren> | * Jesse is the repo-monster.
21:42 <      warren> | * Updates go to updates-testing
21:42 <      warren> | * We have haters, or lovers
21:42 <      warren> | * Timeout occurs, nagmail happens to maintainer
21:42 <      warren> | * "timeout, please check for haters, check for lovers, go to this tool to request pushing update"
21:42 <      warren> | * davej -- Great for developer morale.  "No one likes you."
21:42 <    dgilmore> | works for me
21:43 <      warren> | * Greg -- Get hate/love integrated into mugshot.
21:43 <      warren> | * Go to tool, click "push this as a final update"
21:43 <    dgilmore> | no one likes me either so davej and I can can sit in the corner
21:43 <      warren> | * davej -- package consumed with hate, either push (unjustified hate), or destroy.  It is up to the maintainer.
21:44 <      warren> | Maybe write "Extra Justification" in the box.
21:44 <      warren> | * davej -- I want a hate-o-meter.
21:44 <    dgilmore> | heh
21:44 <      wwoods> | "Waived - 'Don't hate the player, hate the game'"
21:45 <      warren> | * jeremy -- We are not in terrible shape without this.  We are not worse off than we are today.   This would improve the process, and it is definitely something that the testing team looking into would make sense...
21:45 <      warren> | * jesse -- hatebot!
21:45 <    blizzard> | <davej> even the bots hate me
21:45 <      wwoods> | h8b0t?
21:45 <      warren> | * jeremy -- friends that are nerds
21:45              * | warren loves quotes out of context.
21:47 <      warren> | * Packagers duty to check the love/hate
21:47 <      wwoods> | lmacken: as a side note, I was just starting to write a TurboGears-based thing for QA feedback on updates-testing packages
21:47 <      wwoods> | so this is rad
21:47 <      wwoods> | but I can't get it to run :/
21:47 <     lmacken> | wwoods: awesome!
21:47 <     lmacken> | where is the code ?
21:48 <     lmacken> | i'm working on getting test6.phx.fedora to be our 'TurboGears application server'
21:48 <       nirik> | a popcon like package could also indicate how many people installed/used a updates-testing package... might be of use...
21:48 <      wwoods> | lmacken: nowhere. I started it this morning and threw it away when I realized how your tool worked
21:48 <      wwoods> | heh
21:48 <     lmacken> | haha
21:48 <      warren> | * Signing Server enables update team (who approves pushes) are not master signers.
21:49 <      warren> | * Proposal is for ALL packages to go through this update process.  This must be proposed and discussed by FESCO.
21:49 <      warren> | * Technical concern - canceling update
21:49 <      wwoods> | pysqlite2.dbapi2.OperationalError: no such table: package
21:49 <      warren> | * Not a big problem, because not in buildroot unless you explicitly ask.
21:49 <     lmacken> | <code>tg-admin sql create</code> ?
21:50 <      warren> | So... big news of this is *ALL* updates in Fedora in an existing release will have update announcements.
21:50 <     lmacken> | weeeee
21:51              * | warren after all committees approve it.
21:51 <     lmacken> | and useful metadata for pup/pirut
21:51 <      warren> | lmacken, will you be available during Thursday's FESCO meeting to help discuss the tools support angle of this?
21:51              * | dgilmore  has been wanting that
21:51 <      wwoods> | lmacken: *forehead slap*
21:51 <      warren> | lmacken, I think FESCO's acceptance of this will rely on understanding how nice the process is with your update processing system.
21:51 <     lmacken> | warren: i think i can make it
21:52 <     lmacken> | i have to write 2 papers and take 2 more finals this week
21:52 <      warren> | lmacken, putting something online, even just screenshots to show ideas, would help for that meeting.
21:52 <     lmacken> | warren: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UpdatesSystem
21:52 <     lmacken> | warren: like that ?
21:52 <      warren> | lmacken, do you want a publictest* machine to run a mock-up of this?
21:52 <     lmacken> | warren: i'm already working on test6.phx, but a publictest machine would probably be better
21:52 <      warren> | lmacken, damn, you rock!
21:52 <     lmacken> | i know.
21:53 <     lmacken> | :)
21:53 <      wwoods> | Hooray! Let's all talk to zoidberg!
21:53 <      wwoods> | I mean, lmacken!
21:53 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: i can change test6 to publictest6 if you want
21:53 <      warren> | lmacken, just change the IP address to a publictest address and reboot the xen guest, and update the InfrastructurePrivate page.
21:53 <      warren> | or dgilmore
21:53 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: or warrens idea
21:53 <     lmacken> | dgilmore: sure, althought i haven't put any firewall rules on it yet
21:53 <     lmacken> | i still need to hack up a pyroman config profile for our xen guests
21:54 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: public ports are 22 80 443 8887 8888 8889
21:54              * | mmcgrath notes the infrastructure team as a whole is worried about port 22 being open.
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21:54 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: denyhosts needs putting on also
21:54 <    dgilmore> | mmcgrath: yup sure am
21:54 <      warren> | Yes, that is why infrastructure team needs to approve anything that runs on publictest* addresses.
21:54 <      warren> | IDEA
21:54 <      warren> | 1) Approval required of infrastructure team
21:55 <      warren> | 2) denyhosts must be configured
21:55 <      warren> | 3) ssh key authentication ONLY
21:55 <     lmacken> | +1
21:55              * | dgilmore is ok with that
21:55              * | iWolf nods
21:55 <    mmcgrath> | warren: +1 obviously but its going to be difficult to enforce since most people will have root on that box.
21:55 <      warren> | Hmm, we have infrastructure quorum now, let's ratify? =)
21:56 <      warren> | hmmm
21:56 <    mmcgrath> | s/that box/their box/
21:57 <      warren> | mmcgrath, you're right, that is a flaw in this.
21:58 <    mmcgrath> | I suppose due diligence is required on our part.  It won't be perfect but its something.
21:58 <    dgilmore> | warren: end users wont have root  only the people managing the test service
21:58 <      warren> | dgilmore, right
21:58 <      warren> | ok
21:58 <      warren> | Ratify?
21:58 <    mmcgrath> | ratify
21:58 <    dgilmore> | +1 from me
21:58 <      warren> | +1
21:58 <    mmcgrath> | +1
21:58 <       iWolf> | +1
21:58 <      warren> | Given we don't have formal voting rules or a defined quorum size, I guess this is ratified.
21:59 <       iWolf> | :)
21:59 <     lmacken> | good good
22:00              * | warren posts new policy to list.
22:00 <      warren> | lmacken, go ahead and change the IP and reboot the guest, but update the docs to reflect it.
22:00 <     lmacken> | warren: k
22:06 <      warren> | MEETING IS BACK!
22:07 <      warren> | * We have concluded that we want Borat to be the speaker at the next FUDCON.
22:07 <      warren> | Or Colbert
22:08 <    mmcgrath> | Making of the OSS free for people!
22:08              * | dgilmore votes for Borat
22:08              * | mmcgrath votes for Colbert in a mustache.
22:09 <      warren> | * Legacy becomes Fedora Security Team
22:09 <      warren> | * Core becomes Fedora (something), fully external
22:09 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team first Tracks problems and pokes maintainers to fix things.
22:09 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team may also fix things.
22:10 <      warren> | * jeremy -- proposes "fedora sustainability team"
22:10 <      warren> | * other people don't like the name
22:11 <         jwb> | renaming something isn't going to really change anything
22:11 <      warren> | * warren -- Proposed: If an old distribution fails to be maintained (older, less popular), retire it.
22:11 <      warren> | * people don't like that idea, because it is difficult to measure
22:11 <         jwb> | if you don't fix the issues Legacy has right now, you could call whatever you want and it still wouldn't work
22:12 <      warren> | * jeremy -- New Proposal: Security updates happen longer (in some way they are discussing)
22:12 <      warren> | jwb, one idea is that Updates being fully in the open will allow lowering the bar and making it easier to sustain an older distro.
22:13 <      warren> | * mspevack -- I wish you waited a little longer before it becomes legacy.  (What he hears often.)
22:13 <         jwb> | warren, "fully in the open" meaning no embargo?
22:13 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Make it two instead of one.
22:13 <      warren> | "running up the flag pole"
22:14 <      warren> | * Possibly distro being fully in the open would allow community to help RH engineering to create updates, thereby reducing pressure on RH engineering.
22:14 <      warren> | * (talking about when to stop bug fixes on a FC release)
22:15 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Proposed: Stop bug fixes and security updates for FC7 at FC9+1 month.
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22:15 <         jwb> | warren, perhaps but i doubt it.  legacy releases are fully in the open now once they become legacy and it hasn't fixed things
22:16 <      wwoods> | So.. that would lengthen the support window by ~60 days?
22:16 <      warren> | * Debating whether or not Fedora will allow Legacy to happen on Fedora infrastructure or not.
22:17 <      warren> | jwb, we don't know for certain
22:17 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Clarity of distro retirement is very important to end users.
22:18 <      smooge> | Fedora DeadRelease Team
22:18 <      warren> | There is skepticism here whether *anybody* can realistically maintain an older distro.
22:18 <         jwb> | warren, the only thing that is certain is death and taxes ;)
22:19 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Big thing, reducing scope.
22:19 <      smooge> | To be honest.. I have to agree.. at this point, I just try to figure out a way to get someone converted to the nearest Centos release.
22:19 <      warren> | * jesse -- currently legacy maintains two releases
22:20 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team: tracking things for everything during lifecycle
22:20 <      warren> | * FC7 -> FC9+1 month
22:21 <      warren> | * Honesty is important here regarding Legacy's ability to work or fail.
22:21 <      warren> | * jesse -- Legacy went from many to few people
22:22 <      warren> | smooge, "jeremy -- If you need longer term maintenance, then you should look at longer term options like CentOS or RHEL."
22:22 <      warren> | * rdieter -- Compromising, extending lifetime
22:23 <      warren> | * notting -- reality, legacy has dropped down to one packager and a few other people
22:23 <      warren> | (jkeating said too)
22:23 <      warren> | * davej -- upgrade from FC8 to FC10, will be testing that?
22:23 <      warren> | * everyone -- yes
22:23 <      smooge> | we used to have to test upgrade paths from 3 releases back
22:24 <      warren> | NOTE: Things discussed here are proposals, nothing decided yet.
22:24 <      smooge> | RHEL-4.x/RHEL-3.0.3 -> 5.x
22:24 <      smooge> | understood by me
22:25 <      smooge> | most of the people I know who have Fedora Legacy issues had it installed at a colo and needs updates
22:25 <      wwoods> | I think FC(n-3)->FCn upgrades should still be tested, and I think upgrades should get a *lot* of work
22:25 <      warren> | * jesse -- By making these adjustements, this obsoleting the need for an official Fedora Legacy project.
22:25              * | warren this point not entirely in agreement here yet.
22:27 <      warren> | * Extending useful lifetime to 13+ months while stopping to pretend that legacy was useful.  We need truthful messaging.
22:27 <      warren> | (Greg)
22:29 <      warren> | * Change 13 month policy for FC5 immediately?
22:29 <      warren> | * Yes, we think, need to check on this.
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22:30 <         jwb> | 13 months from initial release?
22:30 <         jwb> | or 13 months after going legacy?
22:30 <    mdomsch_> | jwb, 13 from initial
22:30 <      warren> | jwb, example: FC7 lives on until FC9 + 1 month
22:30 <      warren> | 13 months is an estimate
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22:31              * | corbet thinks this is a big step in the right direction
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22:31 <      wwoods> | It seems like time spent maintaining (e.g.) FC3 would be better spent working on making upgrades from FC3 -> FC6 worked well
22:31 <      warren> | * Strong perception "legacy is not a success"... because "legacy is not a success"
22:31 <      warren> | wwoods, yes, this is subject to more discussion.
22:31 <      wwoods> | warren: right, just my opinion
22:31 <      smooge> | Strong perception that legacy is dead
22:33 <    mdomsch_> | at 13 months, don't nuke the old tree from the servers, just don't post new updates
22:33 <      warren> | * wwoods keeps his hate strong.
22:33 <       nirik> | would help to have a tested/approved update method using yum... that would allow more folks to update instead of being stuck on old releases.
22:33 <     lmacken> | warren: publictest2 is now the TurboGears guest (xen2)
22:33 <    mdomsch_> | so people running can upgrade when *they* want, not when we release FC(N+2) on our scheudle
22:34 <      warren> | nirik, please propose to FPB later to discuss and possibly ratify that as a standard.
22:34 <      warren> | * Legacy team and RH engineering must approve of the discussed plan.
22:34 <      warren> | nirik, actually, please begin on FAB
22:34 <      warren> | nirik, are you on FAB?
22:35 <       nirik> | nope... I'm not on anything. ;)
22:35 <      warren> | nirik, please talk to me after and we'll fix that.
22:35 <      wwoods> | nirik: upgrading a running system is kind of hard, so yum updates will always be a bit dicey
22:35 <    mdomsch_> | wwoods, I've gone 3->4->5->6 on mine :-)
22:35 <      wwoods> | but I personally feel that yum upgrades should be fully supported
22:35 <    mdomsch_> | not without some pain, but got there
22:35 <      wwoods> | mdomsch_: same here.. and it's kinda gross
22:35 <       nirik> | yeah, although I have done it with the last few releases and the problems have gone down a lot.
22:35 <      warren> | wwoods, many yum upgrade bugs are worth investigating, might not be possible to totally fix, but it is worth doing as an exercise.
22:36 <      wwoods> | e.g. had to nuke my beagle conf to get it to work in FC6
22:36 <    mdomsch_> | once I nuked 3rd party repo packages first
22:36 <      wwoods> | mdomsch_: oh lord, yes. also that.
22:36 <    mdomsch_> | upgraded, then put them back
22:36 <       nirik> | see the decrease in issues on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq for example
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22:37 <      wwoods> | mdomsch_: the dirty secret is that anaconda just silently ignores 3rd-party packages. tada! no conflicts!
22:38 <    mdomsch_> | wow
22:39 <      warren> | * jeremy -- reason why we don't officially support upgrade in place, is to allow the flexibility to make fundamental system changes.  For example: static dev to udev.
22:39 <      warren> | * max -- Makes it an incredibly hard sell, (Fedora vs. other distro)
22:40 <      warren> | * jeremy -- upgrades have been failing badly for Ubuntu
22:40 <      wwoods> | right, it would be nice if there was a yum-based upgrade that worked *almost* like that
22:40 <      warren> | Like I said, we should *TRY* to make it work, and test it, and fix bugs when we can.
22:40 <      wwoods> | i.e. it pulls all the packages, reboots into an updater image, runs the update, and then boots the new system
22:40 <      warren> | But it might not be possible to guarantee it to work.
22:41 <      wwoods> | someone could probably write a simple python script to do that, in fact.
22:41 <      warren> | Fixing bugs found during in-place yum upgrades often do fix legitimate problems that would happen in anaconda upgrades.
22:42 <      warren> | * Greg - "Put some pants on by the way!"
22:42 <      warren> | * Max - "Let's all understand the way the QA was done for FC6, and what level of community help we had, your time being used for (talking too fast..."
22:43            --- | warren has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- wwoods (QA test lead) interrogation
22:43 <         f13> | ====  Taking a moment to talk to wwoods. ====
22:43              * | f13 is taking over as IRC monkey
22:43              * | warren hands banana to f13.
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22:45 <         f13> | Question, did bug zappers really work well?
22:45 <    dgilmore> | f13: for maybe a week
22:45 <         f13> | Jack: went pretty well when I did it, but fell off when I went back to school.  Lack of bug day coordination.
22:45 <         f13> | Jack: people doing it felt unloved due to lack of coordination and communication.
22:45 <         f13> | Jeremy: Works for gnome, but has a constant driver
22:46 <      warren> | *Talking about ranking system with scores and ranks.
22:46 <      warren> | "level 1 packager with +3 sword."
22:47 <         f13> | Max: Unless the people whom you're asking to do bug work are seeing quick results, the incentive goes away
22:47 <         f13> | Completely right ^^^
22:47 <         f13> | Max: there seemed to be no control over blocker bugs
22:48 <         f13> | Max: Did Will have the power to block the release?
22:48 <         f13> | Answer: yes.
22:48 <      warren> | * talking about FC6Blocker but not being empty, because anybody could add
22:48 <      warren> | * Freedom to add is important
22:48 <      wwoods> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria
22:48 <      warren> | * Release cabal decided what were the "actual real blockers" and try to be happy at release time
22:49 <      warren> | * release cabal did stop release a few times to fix critical bugs.
22:49 <      warren> | * Max: File a bug, block "test 1 triage", and team goes through it.
22:49 <      warren> | * Jesse -- Maintainers should  look at bugs
22:49 <      warren> | * notting -- maintainers use blockers as a TODO list
22:50 <      warren> | * jeremy -- from prior experience, it is a full time job to do triage
22:50 <      warren> | * davej -- there will always be nasty bugs that can't be fixed (TOO MANY!)
22:50 <      warren> | * max -- Few people that bother to do good things in bugzilla tend to be ignored.
22:51 <      warren> | engineers of packages in core, make what appear to be arbitrary decisions that frustrates and  disincentives community involvement in QA.
22:51 <        ajax> | disincents.
22:51 <      warren> | * greg -- fundamental intractable problem that is QA, identify most useful activities ... (talking too fast)
22:51 <      warren> | * greg -- bug day: virtual equivalent of buying people a pizza to do work
22:52 <      warren> | * promise to people around them to be there (compared to 3 hour party in evercrack)
22:53 <      warren> | * We need commitment from engineering^WFedora contributors to meet community half-way, so QA people feel good about doing it.
22:53 <         f13> | talk about testing.108, and RHTS type stuff.
22:53 <         f13> | the RHTS guys are very excited about bringing it to Fedora
22:55 <      warren> | (RHTS is an automated suite of regression tests.)
22:55 <         f13> | Not all parts are open, and there is chicken / egg problem.  No tests to build infrastructure around, no infrastructure to build tests.
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23:00 <         f13> | Discussion regarding watching bug reports and escelating to "common" issues.
23:01 <      warren> | * Greg - People do Extras because they need it.  People do translations (even with shit infrastructure) and it succeeds because they need it.
23:02 <      warren> | * Greg - Motivations for communicaty projects are not intrinsic, (digging to bugzilla shit)
23:02 <      smooge> | does this cover about people with large number of NEW bug events to their name from multiple releases?
23:02 <         f13> | Manager/SIG escelation there.. :/
23:02 <      warren> | Greg: how do we concentrate on making sure that people give a shit about this?
23:03 <      warren> | wwoods -- better tools
23:03 <      warren> | wwoods -- add incentives
23:03 <      warren> | jesse -- enable people to fix shit themselves
23:03 <      warren> | greg -- motivation for filing bug, dependent on increased expectation that bug will actually be fixed
23:03 <      warren> | solve motivation problem?
23:05 <      smooge> | well as a customer and talking to other people.. you don't get new bugs when you see that xyz maintainer hasnt changed a Bugzilla from NEW to TAKEN (or whatever) since 1999
23:05 <      warren> | warren said:
23:05 <      warren> | People driven QA requires constant manual input
23:05 <      warren> | "Bug day" is one-time and did not create something self-sustaining.
23:05 <      warren> | Better investment is to create automated ranking systems (like GNOME Bugzilla) that encourages fundamental changes in volunteer behavior, due to a feeling of competition and accomplishment.
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23:06 <      smooge> | it is also used as sales part from other companies. "Well if they are so good, why isnt NetworkManager bugs ever cleared"
23:07 <      warren> | * Discussing pros and cons of using Bugzilla for a scoring system.
23:09 <      warren> | * Possibility of adding scoring/ranking/reward system to upstream bugzilla, because this is something that projects need in general.
23:10 <    mdomsch_> | split the problem into multiple parts
23:10 <    mdomsch_> | it's not "all bugs" but "class of bugs #1, #2, #3, ..."
23:10 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Bugzilla is featuritis overload.  Everyone that uses Bugzilla is forking it.
23:10 <    mdomsch_> | like we did with the BuidRequires
23:11 <    mdomsch_> | karma
23:12 <    mdomsch_> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/FixBuildRequires tried
23:12 <    mdomsch_> | but the folks who did it really didn't do it for karma points
23:13 <    mdomsch_> | they did it for the love of a "better" distro
23:13 <      wwoods> | mdomsch_: yes, that was the interesting thing to me
23:14 <         f13> | speaking of, wwoods, we need to get those karma points redeemed soon.
23:15 <      wwoods> | f13: indeed
23:17 <      warren> | * Possibly scoring could be done by an async process that queries the Bugzilla and updates scores elsewhere periodically.
23:17 <      warren> | * wwoods talking about RHTS ...
23:19 <      warren> | * writing test plans not exciting, but helpful
23:20            --- | jwb is now known as jwb_gone
23:22 <      warren> | * warren: Incentivize writing documentation with Love/Hate links, which contributes to the point ranking system!
23:22 <      warren> | * Single Sign-On is where the points are tracked!
23:22 <      warren> | * Race: Elvish
23:23 <      smooge> | maybe you could tie it into Mugshot?
23:24 <      warren> | smooge, yes, there was discussion of this.
23:24 <      warren> | smooge, Mugshot creates excellent opportunities in devel information sharing
23:25 <      warren> | * (Add some kind of points tracking thing to the account system schema maybe)
23:26 <    dmalcolm> | wwoods: BTW, I've been working on code that makes it very easy to create a regression test for a package's rpmlint output within RHTS
23:26 <      wwoods> | dmalcolm: yay!
23:26 <      warren> | * Points are not about earning stuff, but earning community respect and "cred"
23:26 <      smooge> | I mean I am more interested in recommending bugs/software than songs
23:27 <      warren> | smooge, as Havoc said it earlier today, "If you don't have any nerd friends, you wont see nerd things."
23:27 <         f13> | mdomsch_: thanks for that update (:
23:27 <      warren> | smooge, Mugshot shows you stuff depending on who your friends are.
23:27 <      smooge> | hmmm I guess I don't have any friends :)
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23:29 <    mdomsch_> | np
23:29              * | mdomsch_ nuked the 16GB of trees a few days ago to reclaim the space
23:29 <         f13> | heh
23:30 <      wwoods> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Testing/Meetings/20061109
23:31 <    dgilmore> | smooge: you and me both :D
23:31 <  green_west> | quaid: ping
23:31 <  green_west> | quaid: are you on the call
23:33 <      warren> | green_west, the bridge is dead now
23:34 <  green_west> | yes, but if he was on, he wouldnt be disconnected
23:34 <      warren> | green_west, new calls incoming after 5pm stopped
23:40 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Meritocracy, people writing code are those who make decisions about the direction of Fedora.
23:41 <    mmcgrath> | s/writing code/doing works/
23:41 <    mmcgrath> | :P
23:42 <      warren> | * Greg -- What about Live CD?
23:42 <      warren> | * notting -- LiveCD does not rely on anaconda
23:42 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Problem: skill levels required to do a certain thing, VERY DIFFICULT to hire someone to work on anaconda.
23:44 <      warren> | * max -- wanting to solve problem of RH engineering not being able to focus on key priorities important for Fedora
23:44 <      warren> | * jeremy -- difficult o_O
23:44 <         jrb> | hrm
23:44 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Fedora does not do a good job of enumerating what is important
23:44 <      warren> | thus the goal of this summit
23:44 <      smooge> | how do people who actually want to use Fedora but aren't coders (but say admins/IT/bugtesters) have a say in the direction of Fedora
23:45 <      warren> | smooge, meritocracy... if you aren't contributing in a big way, it is difficult to be respected in a meritocracy.
23:45 <      warren> | smooge, if someone without skills but resources (like money), they could put up bug bounties
23:45 <      warren> | Also... if someone without TIME but money, they could put up bug bounties.
23:46 <      warren> | smooge, also... respect alone isn't useful in getting something.  WORKING CODE can be.
23:47 <      warren> | (Still talking about resource scarcity)
23:47 <         jrb> | warren: is the goal of the summit to enumerate what's important to fedora?
23:47              * | mmcgrath wonders how other OSS projects deal with resouce issues.
23:48 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Going to world where everything is external, everyone has to be held to the same standards.  (Community contributing code determines direction and what happens. ... maybe...)
23:48 <      warren> | jrb, one of many goals of the summit
23:50 <      warren> | jrb, nothing really was decided in finality here.  This was mainly a valuable exercise in putting heads together, posing questions and thinking about options.
23:50 <         jrb> | warren: do I get to vote? (-;
23:50 <      smooge> | warren, I understand that but that goes to the question: why would I want to use Fedora for some project if I have no standing in finding that a current direction is broke?
23:51 <      warren> | jrb, in the actual decisions that result from recommendations of this summit, yes.
23:52 <      warren> | jrb, have time to stop by tomorrow on the last day of the summit?  Topics ... LiveCD, What's in Fedora? "non-free" repos/links, FUDCon/Summit, Max's ideas
23:52 <         jrb> | warren: alright...
23:52 <      warren> | * jeremy -- We work upstream, we work upstream, we work upstream.
23:54 <      warren> | * GENERALLY WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT: Resource scarcity problem.  RH can't do everything that is important for Fedora.  Fedora is becoming fully external.  Meritocracy is important to Fedora.  Hopefully this will allow Fedora itself to easier add things that are important to Fedora.
23:55            --- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- Resource scarcity problem - how do we decide what to work on?
23:55 <      warren> | * notting -- (ask eng managers) What things we would like in Fedora we can have egineers work on upstream?
23:55              * | wwoods no longer being interrogated!
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23:56 <    mdomsch_> | laptops
23:56 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: they are useful :D
23:56 <      warren> | * notting -- interesting thing, why nobody in RHEL cares about LiveCD?
23:56              * | mdomsch_ thinks laptop features should be a key driver for FC7
23:56 <        spot> | because there is so little corporate Linux on desktop?
23:56 <      warren> | * Priority: LiveCD or Xen?
23:56            --- | tibbs|h is now known as tibbs
23:56 <    mmcgrath> | notting: I bet they'll care more when xen, virtualization, and stateless linux takes off.
23:56 <      warren> | something loses =(
23:56 <    mdomsch_> | lowering power consumption
23:57 <    mdomsch_> | wifi / bluetooth
23:57              * | mdomsch_ is hardware-centric
23:57 <      warren> | * Fundamental issue that we try to do as much of everything in upstream in possible
23:57 <    dgilmore> | warren: id choose xen over livecd
23:58 <      warren> | dgilmore, thus it is the job of Fedora to beat^Wencourage a community project to seriously make LiveCD happen.
23:58              * | mdomsch_ needs to go cook steaks soon
23:58 <    mmcgrath> | dgilmore: but you could do both ;-)
23:58 <    dgilmore> | mmcgrath: sure i could
23:58              * | dgilmore is not that sadistic
23:58 <    mmcgrath> | heh
23:58 <    mdomsch_> | part of LiveCD challenge has been - no offense jeremy
23:59 <    mdomsch_> | jeremy saying "sure, I'll work on it, when I've got time"
23:59 <      warren> | * jesse -- Fedora goes after upstream to fix things (crap makefiles, HIG compliance, etc.)
23:59 <    mdomsch_> | which scares others away, because they know he'll do a good job
23:59 <    mdomsch_> | if he gets the time
23:59 <      warren> | * jesse -- Do not patch locally, go after upstream to fix it for everyone.
23:59 <      warren> | * should be job of maintainer
23:59 <    mdomsch_> | e.g. the "don't bite off more than you can chew"
--- Day changed Mi Nov 15 2006
00:00 <      warren> | * Max - Let's go drink.
00:00 <      warren> | * Jeremy - Let's sum up what we did today.
00:00 <      wwoods> | It is totally beer-thirty, you guys
00:00 <      wwoods> | GTFO
00:00 <    mmcgrath> | hah!
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14:19 <     twunder> | hi... just hangin out, per rdieter's e-mail to kde-redhat-users :)
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14:21 <     rdieter> | twunder: hi, just about ready to head off to breakfast... then sumitting again in ~40 minutes.
14:28 <     twunder> | rdieter: enjoy :)
14:28              * | twunder is stuck at work :(
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15:03 <    mmcgrath> | agenda for the day?
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15:14 <    mspevack> | good morning Fedora
15:15            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- current topic LiveCD
15:15 <    mspevack> | come to order here in the next few minutes
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15:16 <   BobJensen> | Good morning Max
15:16 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: agenda for the day?
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15:17 <    mspevack> | Live CD
15:17 <    mspevack> | "other repos"
15:17 <    mspevack> | and then unclear
15:17 <    mspevack> | the order
15:18 <    mspevack> | but things like FC7 feature list, FudCon/Red Hat Summit, branding
15:18 <    mmcgrath> | danke
15:19              * | f13 is IRC monkey today.
15:19 <         f13> | topic switch.
15:20 <         f13> | 'non-free repos' or more to the point 'non-free stuff'
15:20 <         f13> | Jeremy: what about the children?
15:20 <         f13> | greg: we have teh opportunity to educate.  "If you want flash, you will not be free, bug go here."
15:21 <         f13> | Jesse: What about the other arches...
15:21 <         f13> | Greg: we hvae a "sorry, doesn't work for !i386"
15:22 <         f13> | Why can't we ship gnash?
15:22 <         f13> | answer: doesn't work for the main usage of flash.
15:23            <-- | rdieter has quit (Remote closed the connection)
15:23 <         f13> | Also, fluendo mp3
15:23 <         f13> | Fluendo terrorists are more supportable, given they are doing opensource software, just patent encombered
15:24 <         f13> | Fluendo requires a clickthrough, for i386/x86_64.  no ppc yet?
15:25 <         f13> | Fluendo says we may be able to do it w/out a clickthrough.
15:25              * | thl sill votes for: let us help fedora-unity or some other external website/organistion to host that stuff and ship a repo file for it that's disabled by default; I'd prefer to not have that stuff on our servers
15:25 <         jwb> | i sorta agree with thl
15:26 <         jwb> | though i would say we don't even ship the repo file
15:26 <         f13> | Greg:  You request a mimetype, or click a button on the desktop.  It sends you to a dialog that says "This is wrong.  But if you really want it, Ok."  -> Next screen would lead you to fluendo.
15:26 <         thl> | jwb, maybe even that, yet
15:26 <         thl> | yes
15:26              * | BobJensen notes that Fedora Unity is willing to look at setting up a repo if the legal issues can be worked out.
15:26 <         f13> | thl: we can't ship a repo that points to it
15:26 <         f13> | contributory infringement.
15:26 <         thl> | f13, k, then just help them to get that stuff running
15:26 <         thl> | and let them provide the repo file
15:27              * | BobJensen and provided it does not hurt other potential "endorcements" of Fedora Unity as a whole
15:27 <   Lovechild> | the gstreamer guys are making it easy to hook up the missing plugin message to something to be used to point people in the right direction, Christian Schaller blogged about it yesterday following the Ubuntu summit
15:27 <         f13> | Warren: Adobe will host their own rpms/yum repo in the future, firefox autoinstaller may work.
15:27 <         f13> | Flash is off the list.
15:28 <         f13> | warren:  We have the opportunity to be the last champion of free software.  Ubuntu lost, Novell really lost.
15:28 <         f13> | Our hardass stance on the patent issue has made it less comfortable for users, but we get more useful contributors who care about freedom.
15:29 <   BobJensen> | At what point do we sacrifice the user base for our beliefs?
15:29 <   Lovechild> | it is not really that hard for users to enable livna to get that mp3
15:29 <         f13> | at what point do we sacrifice our beliefs for the user (NOvell)
15:30 <         jwb> | doesn't the word "our" imply that a significant portion of the user base _shares_ the beliefs?
15:30 <         f13> | Lovechild: it isn't, but we continually get beaten up because they can't figure it out from an install.
15:30 <         f13> | jwb: yes, and a significant portion of our userbase DOES.
15:30 <   BobJensen> | I guess my point is that no matter how "greater than thou" we try to be the end users still want the cruft
15:31 <         jwb> | the cruft can be had rather easily from elsewhere
15:31 <    mspevack> | greg -- this stuff won't be on our servers in any event
15:31 <   Lovechild> | f13: would it be an option to use the new gstreamer stuff to pop up a message box tell people why we can't ship this and have it install in one click?
15:31 <    mspevack> | greg -- what i'm proposing is making it easier to point to other servers and agree to their licenses
15:31 <         f13> | Lovechild: thats what Greg is proposing.
15:32 <   Lovechild> | f13: it seems like a good compromise.. I personally enjoy the stance the Fedora project takes on non-free stuff
15:33 <         f13> | greg -- Goal is to keep the distro 100% redistributable.  Having a button on the desktop that points to Fluendo does NOT change the redistributable.
15:35 <         f13> | greg -- mp3 is the target we want to go for, forget the slippery slope
15:35 <         f13> | jeremy -- Wireless is a bigger problem, and a harder one to solve.
15:37 <   Lovechild> | the order users seem to care about is mp3, video codecs, drivers.. clearly we can't fix the driver thing nicely for any party, not without sending poor davej off the deep end.
15:39 <         f13> | Jeremy -- I worry about firmware that is not freely redistributable
15:40 <         f13> | warren -- I care about free for non-commercial
15:40            --> | mdomsch (Matt Domsch) [n=mdomsch@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
15:40 <        ajax> | one long term solution we should be looking at for wireless and, cough, other drivers is providing a path for users to find the appropriate upstream to work with
15:40 <         f13> | warren -- copyright issues are somewhat solveable.
15:41 <         f13> | bill -- do we want to go through teh pain of setting up another repo that is 'free for non-commercial' now that e're trying to merge extras and core?
15:41 <        ajax> | drivers aren't magic, they're just hard.  we should be enabling people who want to make open drivers work.
15:42            --> | rdieter_away (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
15:42 <         jwb> | i hate the free-for-non-commercial stuff
15:42 <    mspevack> | me too
15:42 <         f13> | greg -- what prevents solving mp3 is the slippery slope which leads to discussions.
15:42 <         f13> | jwb: I do as well.  Die die die.
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15:43 <         f13> | jeremy -- mp3 leads us to things like mpeg stuff and dvd stuff, where there isn't a mp3 solution (fluendo) just yet
15:43 <   Lovechild> | god I hate software patents..
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15:45 <         f13> | jeremy -- the reviewers that hit us on mp3 don't just bring up mp3, so by solving just mp3, what are we actually solving?
15:45 <         f13> | warren -- are we making an assumption that supporting mp3 will help us more than hurt us?
15:45 <   Lovechild> | we aren't solving anything, we are merely moving the issue to the next time someone hits a file they can't play.
15:46 <   Lovechild> | the reviews will still read "Well.... it works in Ubuntu"
15:46 <    mspevack> | greg -- RULE NUMBER 1: always ship redistributable software
15:46 <    mspevack> | greg -- RULE NUMBER 2: where 1 is not possible, always follow the law
15:46            --> | craigt (Craig Thomas) [n=ct@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
15:46 <         f13> | bill -- what we've been talking about how to make fedora open, and how to make your own fedoras.  Somebody in the future can do a spin of something that is Fedora + Livna + whatever.  They can't call it Fedora, but...
15:47 <         f13> | jeremy -- in doing so, do we create the next Mandrake (KDE-qt issue...)
15:47 <    mmcgrath> | <grin> "How to make your own fedoras"
15:47 <   Lovechild> | .. a hattrick?
15:47 <         f13> | bill -- we don't know if this is good or bad.
15:47 <         f13> | blizzard -- but this is what we're trying to enable the community to do.
15:48 <         f13> | blizzard -- in other parts of the world, this is perfectly free, why can't we allow them to enjoy their freedom?
15:48 <         jwb> | it's free for now
15:48 <         f13> | dave -- where do the bugs go?
15:48 <         f13> | bill -- preferrably the spinoff.
15:49 <         f13> | greg -- these compromises already exist.  Can we draw back the line of the argument to something that is more of a compromise that helps our users.
15:49 <         f13> | max -- the hard line is rule #1
15:49            --> | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
15:50 <         f13> | greg -- the compromise is rule #2, pointing users on how to legally get the bits that are missing.
15:50 <         f13> | blizzard -- I think thats right, we give them a way out to legally get that software.
15:50 <      smooge> | spot, by the way, every corporate email service has a recall built into it (Lotus, Exchange, Groupwise, etc)
15:51 <         f13> | greg -- This is what is frustrating about Livna, as they're doing it that isn't legal in most of the world, so Fedora cannot point to livna due to contributory infringement.
15:51              * | thl catches up
15:51 <      smooge> | oops wrong channel
15:51 <      smooge> | sorry
15:51              * | thl also hates the free-for-non-commercial stuff
15:52 <         f13> | talking about having an rpm of Thoreau's Civil Disobediance that is a requirement of any non-free software.
15:52 <   Lovechild> | at the very least we should replace the "missing support" messages with a polite educational message, spinoffs can hook up whatever they like. Right now it comes off to users as a bug which we just don't care about
15:53 <   BobJensen> | Lovechild: I agree
15:54 <   Lovechild> | If users understand the reason why, they tend to be less upset. Any solutions we can provide on top of that is icing on the cake really.
15:54 <         f13> | much agreement
15:55 <         f13> | the next obvious step is pointing in the polite message to Fluendo for a legal way to get the stuff.
15:57 <         f13> | greg -- I propose we do both.  Educate, and give a way for legal ways to get legal software.
15:57 <   Lovechild> | when it comes to drivers, if I understand correctly a lot of the problems comes from semi finished but otherwise free drivers that need reviewing and merging upstream. Could Fedora be helpful here as a source for reviews?
15:57 <         f13> | greg -- we have the right to make the 'support terrorists' link as ugly and scary as possible.
15:58 <         f13> | Lovechild: it needs kernel reviewers, our kernel guys have a lot of work as it is, upstream is the better place for it.
15:58 <         jwb> | Lovechild, that's only part of the problem.  take R350 ATI cards for example... there _is_ no half finished driver because ATI won't release specs
15:58              * | smooge begins an GutenBurg2RPM
15:58 <         f13> | greg -- starging this with mp3 is a good test case, extending this to more things needs to be discussed on a case by case basis.
15:58 <   Lovechild> | jwb: I say we support the terrorists.. they can blow up ATI for us
15:58              * | jwb avoids calling it an "Axis of semi-evil"
15:59 <         f13> | bill -- start with the gstreamer plugins, and use it as a test case.
15:59 <   Lovechild> | agreed
16:00 <         f13> | blizzard -- If we're going to be doing this, I want to make sure that people have to pay for the mp3 codec.
16:01 <         f13> | greg -- why?
16:01 <         f13> | blizzard -- Because there is a cost associated with it.
16:01 <         f13> | greg -- Fluendo paid that cost.
16:01 <   Lovechild> | fluendo' plugin is gratis for users
16:01 <         f13> | blizzard -- People should be made aware that there _is_ a cost for the mp3 and that cost should be passed along to the people wanting to use the technology
16:02 <         f13> | Lovechild: fluendo HAD to pay for it, chris wants people who make use of mp3 understand this.
16:02 <   Lovechild> | ah..
16:02 <         f13> | blizzard -- I know that you can get it for free, however we want to charge users SOMETHING so that they understand that somebody HAD to pay for it.
16:03 <         jwb> | we have no control over that
16:03 <         f13> | greg -- there should be no reason to incur the administrative overhead of charging $1 for user
16:03 <         jwb> | so now we're going to have a fedora paypal account?
16:03 <         jwb> | wtf?
16:04 <         f13> | greg -- part of this deal is to get fluendo into this workflow and get their legal bits out to people.
16:04 <         f13> | blizzard -- think of what we could do with the $1, suppor causes we actually care about.
16:04 <   Lovechild> | we should definintely talk to the Fluendo people before charging for their work.. they have the infrastructure to take money for this kind of thing
16:04 <         jwb> | think of the legal hassle that incurs
16:04 <         f13> | blizzard -- I'm talking about having a token $1 amount that people have to pay as a symbol of being not free.
16:05 <         jwb> | pay to who?  and what does that $1 go towards?
16:05 <         f13> | dave -- we're confusing free and freedmon
16:05 <         f13> | jack -- $.50 goes to creative commons, $.50 goes to foo.
16:05 <         f13> | greg -- if we have to take money in for this, we're done, and I dont' want to talk about it anymore.
16:06 <         f13> | greg -- people can get it for free, and they will and avoid us all together.
16:06 <         f13> | jeremy -- rabbit hole, lets step out.
16:07 <         f13> | jeremy -- can we all agree that having a hook in say gstreamer to popup an education box to explain why you can't play that.
16:07 <         f13> | general agreement.
16:07 <   Lovechild> | +1
16:07 <         f13> | and we go back down the rabbit hole of what to do from there :/
16:09 <         f13> | we're moving on, taking this back to the board for what to do after the educate window.
16:09 <         f13> | and now we're moving on LiveCD after a short break.
16:16 <         f13> | Ok, we're coming back, LiveCD
16:16 <         f13> | greg -- the question on LiveCD is, what specifically will it take to have the official Fedora LiveCD that we advertise with teh same voice as the rest of our releases
16:17 <         f13> | bill -- either annoint what the Kadischi is doing, or we pay somebody to reimpliment the right way.
16:17 <         f13> | bill -- pilgrim is large and ugly and a hack, but at least you can get it checked out.
16:17 <         f13> | jeremy -- It's 400 lines of shell, its not extensable.  Much like libtool
16:17 <         f13> | *snickers*
16:18            --> | tibbs (Jason L Tibbitts III) [n=tibbs@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:18 <         f13> | greg -- is there any live CD that unity is hosting that we could bless as official?
16:18 <         f13> | various answers of "we don't know because nobody around the table has tried it."
16:18 <         f13> | bill -- A Fedora Unity CD built from kadischi has landed on the table, we're trying it.
16:19 <   BobJensen> | greg, all our live-spins as we call them only contain bits from Fedora Core and Extras
16:19 <         f13> | jesse -- the Kadischi stuff does not make any use of the stateless work we put into Core.
16:19 <   BobJensen> | greg, they are created using kadischi
16:20 <         f13> | max -- Our goal with LiveCD is the same as our goal with teh rest of the new world.  When it's time to do a release, Fedora project puts out their cut of the LiveCD, and there are tools provided for the community to build different ones.
16:21 <   Lovechild> | LiveCDs would also be very useful for testing our point releases for people who like to see new stuff in action but don't want to install a potentially baby eating system. This might also catch more malconfigured systems
16:21 <         f13> | Lovechild: indeed
16:21 <   BobJensen> | Lovechild: we did do a liveCD for FC6T2
16:22 <         f13> | greg -- I like pilgrim because a downstream project uses it, OLPC
16:22 <   Lovechild> | BobJensen: I didn't see one on that official torrent site. But I honestly didn't look to hard
16:22 <   BobJensen> | Lovechild: Not official, done by unity for the communty
16:23 <   Lovechild> | in the ideal world it would be part of the release spinning process
16:23 <         f13> | greg -- somebody technically competent cares about pligrim.  Kadischi just languishes.
16:24 <@greendiseas> | personally, i agree with pilgrim integration into pungi
16:24 <         f13> | greg -- I don't know what what is the right one to use, should we do a Pepsi challenge?
16:24 <         f13> | jeremy -- hand waiving....
16:24 <@greendiseas> | because it seems like a logical process to create a livecd when you roll you own cut of fedora
16:24 <   BobJensen> | greg, it is not for lack of trying, Jasper was doing a fair amount of work on Kadischi based on our input
16:24 <         f13> | jeremy -- Is david interested in continuing forward with Pilgrim for the Fedora use case?
16:25 <         f13> | jonathan -- He was until he got pushed back on because A) it wasn't kadischi and B) because it didn't use anaconda.
16:25 <         f13> | jeremy -- I had a long talk with David, he doesn't want to be in the business of maintaining these tools, he was very explicit.
16:25 <         f13> | this seems like two dead ends.
16:26 <         f13> | jeremy -- there needs to be some concerted resources around making the official LiveCD creation tool.
16:27 <@greendiseas> | f13: build it into pungi
16:27 <   BobJensen> | I am sure Jasper Hartline would love to get some support and feedback on how to improve Kadischi so that it can be "the tool"
16:27 <         f13> | jermey -- do we want t orewrite the way we build liveCDs every release
16:27 <         f13> | ?
16:27 <@greendiseas> | since pungi is supposed to be used as the cookie cutter for everyone in the community, we should integrate everything for them in once centralized place
16:29 <         f13> | greendisease: agreed
16:29 <         f13> | greg --pilgram is the only thing that produced a liveCD that I was able to use.  Suggestion, kiss David's ass so that he's motivated to make it work for the next release.
16:30 <@greendiseas> | f13: so whats the problem with trying to integrate the same methodology which david used for pilgrim and integrating it?
16:30 <         f13> | bill -- ask the Unitiy people wha tthey think when they try to use Pilgrim.
16:30 <         f13> | greendisease: it may not work for Fedora 7 already
16:30 <@greendiseas> | i didnt say integrate the actual code
16:30 <@greendiseas> | use the same conceptual method and translate the code to work properly
16:30 <         f13> | greendisease: because pungi does nothing more than call anaconda tools.
16:31 <         f13> | greendisease: there is very little heavy lifting in pungi itself, it just calls other things.
16:31 <@greendiseas> | okay, so why not integrate it into anaconda
16:31 <         f13> | -ETIME
16:31 <@greendiseas> | anaconda is our uber-installer
16:31 <@greendiseas> | what changes is jeremy working on now for rhel anaconda?
16:32 <         f13> | the people that understand anaconda code and would be able to work with anaconda to make a liveCD generator are very very small and busy.
16:32 <         f13> | why didn't David use anaconda for the LiveCD?  he didn't want to, he wanted to write his own.
16:32 <@greendiseas> | i didnt say make anaconda the livecd cutter
16:32 <@greendiseas> | i said include the functionality in there and have pungi use it
16:33 <@greendiseas> | exaqctly what bill just said
16:33 <         f13> | greendisease: indeed.  The utility has to exist and be maintainable.
16:34 <   BobJensen> | What are the chances of the "mystery" behind spinning the releases becoming documented and public?
16:34 <         f13> | BobJensen: can you define that a little bit?
16:35 <   BobJensen> | f13: When it was time for Fedora Unity to start creating "Re-Spins" we cold find no official documentation on how it should work, we had to seek out those of you who do it to get answers
16:36            --> | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:36 <         f13> | the goal of th emerger so to make it dead simple for anbydoy to make a Fedora release.
16:36 <@greendiseas> | BobJensen: +1
16:36 <   BobJensen> | f13: the result was a cobbled together shell script that we are stillnot sure does it the "right way"
16:36 <         f13> | nod
16:37 <   BobJensen> | we never did get any final feedback
16:37 <@greendiseas> | BobJensen: is anyone from unity willing to commit time to working with the anaconda/pungi team then to get this working?
16:37 <@greendiseas> | its more of a resources perspective
16:37 <@greendiseas> | err, not perspective, constraint
16:38 <   BobJensen> | greendisease: we have been here, the people know who we are, we are willing to help but no one has said a thing to us "personally"
16:38 <@greendiseas> | f13: please speak what BobJensen just said
16:39            --> | jmbuser (John Babich) [n=jmbuser@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit
16:39 <   BobJensen> | greendisease: some say "well it was announced, you should go to them"
16:39 <     mdomsch> | greg - whatever form it takes, it shouldn't *have* to be done by a RH employee
16:41 <         f13> | greg -- I don't care how crappy it is, I care that there is a working LiveCD in people's hand.
16:42 <         f13> | max -- you put in a cd, it does stuff, you have a desktop
16:42 <         f13> | max -- you put in a install cd, it does stuff, yo uhave a desktop
16:42            --- | You're now known as thl_afk
16:43 <         f13> | bill -- you cna say you want to do this work in a community, but communities only work after a certain point.  We need somebody to get something wtarted, in teh right way, and growt he comunity aroudn THAT>
16:43 <         f13> | stupoid vpn is making my tylping bad.
16:44 <         f13> | looks like we're going to table tihs until David Z can show up and talk about it.
16:44 <    dgilmore> | f13: thats just my bad influence
16:45 <         f13> | jeremy -- pilgrim isn't that far off, we want to be sure that th epilgrim upstream is willing to make the changes we the Fedora project would like to see.
16:46 <   BobJensen> | And why not work with Kadischi?
16:46 <         f13> | the codebase is a disaster.
16:47 <   BobJensen> | And yet no one will step forward to help fix it, mentor the guys who salvaged it from the refuse heap?
16:47 <         f13> | -ENOTIME>
16:48 <         f13> | David wanted a live CD and wrote his own, and the liceCD folks pissed on iit.
16:49 <      smooge> | comments like that no matter how true, do not help any sort of wanting to work together
16:51            --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- Mail List Overload!!
16:51 <         f13> | we're going to talk about mailing lists now.
16:51 <         f13> | max -- Identify the dead lists, kill them.
16:52 <         f13> | jeremy -- having a page to list the actual useful Fedora lists and what they're used for is the way to go.
16:52 <         f13> | bill -- it's a tedious one time task.
16:52 <         f13> | max -- I'm going to do it, and I'm going to do it in the open, but I'm going to do it.
16:54            --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- FUDCON!
16:54 <         f13> | We don't know what days
16:54 <    mmcgrath> | f13: ask who has final say as to who can create a list.  We get lots of requests for them.
16:54 <         f13> | greg -- we'd like to actually accomplish something, lots of computers, lots of smart people, lots of food/beer, make something happen.
16:54 <         f13> | mmcgrath: the Fedora Board?
16:54 <         f13> | mmcgrath: Max for now.
16:54 <         f13> | bill -- Do we have options for places?
16:55 <    mmcgrath> | K, I'll just send them to max.  Typically I say "Send a solid project plan and details for why you need a maillist" and then I never hear from them again ;D
16:55 <         f13> | people -- Boston is a good location, as transportation issues are easy to solve.
16:55 <         f13> | mmcgrath: hehe, you can continue doing that too!
16:56 <         f13> | we're tlaking about actually paying to fly people in for a fudcon
16:56 <         f13> | and put them up.
16:57 <         f13> | bill -- Do we need the User part of FUDCON anymore?  With the ambassadors project going so well?
16:57 <         f13> | jeremy -- Sat/Sun/Mon works much better for people who need to take time off work.
16:57 <         f13> | greg -- If we have to move dates/venues to accomplish what we want, this is fine.
16:58              * | mmcgrath is planning on attending this year.
16:59 <    mmcgrath> | err the next one, whatever.
16:59 <         f13> | so what is it we'd like to accomplish with this pile of brain power?
16:59 <         f13> | feb/mar/april are the sort of target months
16:59            --- | You're now known as thl
17:00 <         jwb> | is FUDCON going to be in boston again?
17:00              * | dgilmore would like to go to fudcon
17:00 <         f13> | jwb: possibly
17:00 <         jwb> | bummer
17:00 <         f13> | One goal is to have Fedora done by the Red Hat summit, which means mid-april Fedora release.
17:00 <         f13> | jwb: we're talking about acutally paying to get people out here.
17:01 <   Lovechild> | why am I suddenly tempted to book plane tickets across the atlantic
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17:07 <    dgilmore> | f13: what sort of people would we fly to FUDCON?  Alan Cox type people?
17:09 <         f13> | dgilmore: not sure, depends on what we want to accomplish.  If we're going to do a review fest, maybe a few pretty good community reviewers
17:09 <         f13> | if it's going to be a bug fix, maybe some good engineers from the community.
17:09 <    dgilmore> | :) cool makes sense
17:10 <         f13> | listing out bad dates for RH
17:10 <         f13> | LCA - Jan 15-19
17:14 <         f13> | looking at first weekend of Feb.  Greg owns making it happen.
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17:21            --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: The Red Hat Summit
17:21 <         f13> | max -- Our Fedora representation at th enext summit was poor.
17:21 <         f13> | max -- we want to have Fedora Cds for every attendee
17:21 <         f13> | max -- the Fedora talks were few, and were dictated as to what we could talk about.
17:22 <         f13> | max -- max wants to be teh final say about the Fedor topics, and we want to fly people from teh community in to talk about how they use Fedora (like BobJensen)
17:23 <         f13> | max -- the Fedora folks need to be more organized
17:23 <         jwb> | then you need a job req for a cat herder
17:23 <         f13> | jeremy -- tried to get more conversation than talking head, but it didn't work so well this year.
17:23 <@greendiseas> | i am the cat herder
17:24 <         f13> | jeremy -- for some reason there was not much feedback from the attendees during the talks
17:24 <@greendiseas> | f13: tell max i am willing to take responsibility for helping him with summit stuff
17:24 <@greendiseas> | and orgainzing our marketing plan for the summit
17:24 <@greendiseas> | i AM good at these things
17:26 <         f13> | we need to figure out what we're trying to achieve at the summit, given that your average Fedora user isn't going to pony $700 to go to the Red hat summit
17:27 <      wwoods> | find out what the users really want to see go into FC8? heh
17:27 <         f13> | wwoods: Red hat users?
17:28 <      wwoods> | strike that
17:28 <      wwoods> | reading comprehension failure: -ENOTENOUGHCOFFEE
17:28            --- | f13 has changed the topic to:  Fedora Summit: Planning releases
17:29 <         f13> | billl -- we do this poorly
17:29 <         f13> | bill -- we hav ea RH manager in the room, and he is going to go on about this.
17:29 <         f13> | flags are bad mmm-key?
17:29 <         f13> | Jonathan -- Sit ina  room and talk for a while, get input from teams
17:30 <         jwb> | flags?
17:30 <         f13> | greg -- where is the output?
17:30 <         f13> | jonathan -- nothing is written down.
17:30 <         f13> | jwb: you don't want to know.
17:30 <         f13> | greg -- throws something at jonathan.
17:30 <         f13> | jrb -- how this should work; What are our biggest concerns, and whta do we want to look at?  comes from teams and manager best judgement
17:31 <         f13> | jrb -- go to the community with this for input.
17:31 <         f13> | greg -- writing on the board....
17:31 <         f13> | greg -- Step 1: document a. long. list. of. crap.
17:32 <         f13> | greg -- jrb, pete grainer, sigs do this.
17:32 <         f13> | greg -- take the big long list, take what we can expose, and merge it with the community lists
17:32 <         f13> | jrb -- what are we trying to solve?
17:33 <      warren> | Increasing transparency!
17:33 <         f13> | greg -- increasing transpareny and allow the community to have input
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17:35 <         f13> | jrb -- one problem is many masters.  Needs for RHEL, things for Fedora, things for upstream, things for "other products"(OLPC)
17:36 <         f13> | jrb -- it easy to say "we want to put resources behind certian things" but may not be easy to say why
17:36 <    dgilmore> | could we have SIG leaders  that say these should be our games, Gnome, KDE, etc  and we then merge them together to make a big pretty picture?
17:37 <         f13> | jrb -- it is easier to engage the upstream projects rather than to engage Fedora.
17:38 <         f13> | greg -- we have two kinds of roadmaps.  What goes into Fedora, based on upstream, forecasting.
17:39 <    dgilmore> | sure it is.  but things  like the versions/ quantity etc of games  we put in probably best to come from Games SIG
17:39 <    dgilmore> | Gnome KDE updtream release is perfect
17:40 <         f13> | greg -- second type is what goes AROUND Fedora, packaging, layout, new packages, compose lists, etc...
17:40 <         f13> | greg -- second part is where we need a concrete roadmap, as "what is important to Fedora 7 roadmap"
17:42 <         f13> | bill -- where we have a big problem now, it's nearly impossible to get anything from the community wishlist into the rh engineering managers, and drive it.
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17:42 <         f13> | jeremy -- we need to start having that conversation.
17:42 <         f13> | bill -- gather what community wants, then shop it around engineering and engineering managers
17:42 <         f13> | max -- thats my responsibility
17:42 <         f13> | jrb -- this time around is very much Fedora specific
17:43 <         jwb> | the community wants everything
17:44 <   BobJensen> | including a pony
17:44 <         jwb> | you need a pepsi challenge or something similar to even begin to narrow the most popular items down
17:44 <    mspevack> | BobJensen: DENIED, lack of budget
17:44 <   BobJensen> | lol
17:45 <         f13> | davidz just showed up.
17:45 <         f13> | Sigs are very important to our roadmaps as they will own sections of our package base.
17:45 <         f13> | Games being one of them.
17:46 <         f13> | warren -- even if the info isn't perfect, we need to get it out and viewable.
17:46              * | BobJensen ponders a ham radio SIG
17:46              * | mmcgrath would be interested in an embedded SIG (XBOX, my toaster, etc)
17:46 <      wwoods> | a HAM SIG? There's almost a PIG SIG joke in there somewhere
17:47 <         f13> | jeremy -- Fedora needs to do better outreach into parts of Red Hat engineering.
17:47 <    dgilmore> | mmcgrath: i stole your toaster
17:47 <    dgilmore> | the vxworks on it was nasty :D
17:48 <      warren> | warren -- We need to get it out there and viewable.  It must be aggregated and organized in a single place.  It is important for people to see a roadmap.  It is especially important for *ACCURATE* media understanding and reporting.
17:48 <    dgilmore> | It is very hard as an outsider to know how to reach into RH enginering
17:48 <    mmcgrath> | Its a delicate balance between a RH sponsored project and a fully community operated project.
17:50 <      warren> | mmcgrath, that might be part of the issue, but I really don't think we are *DOING* anything wrong.  What we were failing was 1) outreach to the community to do it better 2) communicating about all this.
17:50              * | smooge ponders a SPAM SIG
17:50 <      warren> | smooge, canned meat?
17:51 <         f13> | ok, got action items, snapping a shot of the whiteboard.
17:51 <    mmcgrath> | Yeah, its an interesting situation to be in.  It doesn't help that people think that RH has some sort of alterior motive, honestly I thought the same thing till I got involved.
17:51 <         f13> | taking a break, returning to LiveCDs
17:51 <      smooge> | how to build Fedora SPAM checking tools
17:52            --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: LiveCD!  Take 2
17:52              * | dgilmore  was very confused when RHL was canned.
17:53              * | dgilmore  now loves fedora
17:53 < abadger1999> | Has anyone successfully built and run an FC6 livecd with pilgrim?
17:55 <   BobJensen> | abadger1999: I tried looking for information for Fedora Unity so we could try it out and could not locate it so we went with Kadischi
17:56 < abadger1999> | BobJensen: I evaluated both and got kadischi to work but pilgrim built a livecd that wouldn't get through the boot process.  I was wondering if it was a Rawhide issue or pilgrim issue.
17:56 <         f13> | abadger1999: yes, jrb did.
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17:57 < abadger1999> | f13: Thanks.
17:59 <    mspevack> | abadger1999: and gdk
18:01 <         f13> | joining again.
18:01 <         f13> | davidz will be talking for 5 minutes, I'm not going to type it all though.
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18:02 <         f13> | davidz -- I did a live CD because its neat and similar to OLPC
18:02 <   BobJensen> | f13: I asked jasper Hartline from Kadischi to join us
18:02 <         f13> | davidz -- OLPC takes packages from yum, drops in a chroot, and makes images.
18:03 <     mdomsch> | I'm out for a while, enjoy1
18:03 <     mdomsch> | !
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18:03 <         f13> | davidz -- the tools to make the olpc images became Pilgrim
18:04 <         f13> | davidz -- It's mostly(all?) shell scripts.  Needed to clean it up for OLPC as david came back to desktop group. Discovered that it is very close to a LiveCD
18:04 <         f13> | davidz -- saw the community needed a working LiveCD and Fedora as a project wasn't doing much on that front, so started on a feature set for a LiveCd based on Pilgrim
18:05 <         f13> | davidz -- RW filesystem, selinux, "be the same", be installable.
18:05 <         f13> | davidz -- reasons for installable: using Fedora wasn't easy, too many CDs.  Having a single CD for both live and install is easy.
18:06 <         f13> | davidz -- spent a weekend writing it, showed it to blizzard, blizzard said Hey go announce it!  davidz wasn't so sure, blizzard ratted him out to the Fedora advisory board.
18:06 <         f13> | now it's public knowledge
18:06 <         f13> | davidz -- my liveCD meets my requirements.
18:06 <         f13> | greg -- it worked, kadischi didn't.
18:06              * | twunder is away: Lunch
18:07 <         f13> | davidz -- most feature sets are both olpc/Fedora.
18:07 <         f13> | davidz -- I wanted to enable changing it by just adjusting a few lines.
18:08 <         f13> | davidz -- ran into some issues w/ yum/rpm but worked through them.
18:08 <         f13> | davidz -- I wrote a big README when I dumped the code on the mailing list(s)
18:10 <         f13> | davidz -- let me to think about other groups, say eclipse, would be able to easily build an eclipse live CD from this tool, not caring what the base is, just that it runs a reasonable eclipse.
18:11 <         f13> | davidz -- what worked / didn't work.  Technology worked, built a live CD.  Got a lot of feedback, like two different ways/methods for building and installing a distro.  solve problems 2x places.
18:11 <         f13> | gdk -- what do we do to make this the official LiveCD for Fedora?
18:12 <         f13> | davidz -- Lots of confusion within the fedora project about what to do?  Put it in the release notes, not.. ?
18:13 <         f13> | davidz -- its a huge investment in time to say 'you're going to make LiveCDs'
18:13 <   BobJensen> | LOL
18:13 <         f13> | davidz -- it should be just a part of our release process.  If it is such, it needs to use the same tools.
18:13              * | BobJensen knows all about that investment
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18:15 <      glezos> | and even worse.. it makes sense a downloadable Live CD to be up-to-date..
18:16 <   BobJensen> | glezos: and that is exactly what UNity is doing with Kadischi
18:16 <      glezos> | yup.
18:17 <   BobJensen> | glezos: just annoying to me to hear things said the way they are, as if kadischi is dead and buried.
18:17 <   BobJensen> | glezos: we have proved that it does and can work, several thousand downloads can't be wrong
18:18 <     skvidal> | BobJensen: umm
18:18 <     skvidal> | that statement is horribly incorrect
18:18 <     skvidal> | several thousand downloads can certainly be wrong
18:18 <         f13> | jesse -- Are you (davidz) willing to maintain an upstream for Pilgrim so that things like pungi can make use of it t oproduce liveCDs and other people can use pungi to make liveCDs
18:18 <     skvidal> | for evidence of this: see gentoo
18:18 <     skvidal> | :)
18:18 <     autopsy> | If the Fedora Project doesn't mind, as long as they allow it, I will take the current Kadischi codebase and give it a new home, and continue to maintain it if Fedora Core decides to drop it from thier CVS development tree.
18:18 <     skvidal> | I think unity is great, however :)
18:19 <   BobJensen> | skvidal: ;^)
18:19 <         f13> | autopsy: how useful will that be if all of the engineering effort that is paid to work on Fedora is working on pilgrim, and things like pungi use pilgrim?
18:19              * | f13 thinks Unity is great too.  and Live CDs are great.  how we get to LiveCDs is the question.
18:19 < abadger1999> | BobJensen: I agree with the far from dead part.
18:20 <     autopsy> | I'm just saying, if Fedora Project decides to relinquish control over the current codebase of Kadischi as I read in the CLA which dictates an ownership, I will be glad to take it over.
18:21 <     autopsy> | It isn't useful to anyone but me and anyone who uses Kadischi.
18:21 <         f13> | bill -- we don't control the codebase
18:21 <         f13> | bill -- you need to sign CLA to get access to it
18:22 <         f13> | greg -- if we want to split it out and put it somewhere else (no CLA) we can do that.
18:22 <         f13> | greg -- maybe moving it external will get more involvement, but the Fedora team may take pilgrim on.
18:23 <   BobJensen> | I still think it would be good for some effort to be put toward Kadischi, making it viable before it be "turned loose"
18:24 < abadger1999> | f13: If pungi already uses anaconda, one of the main drawback of kadischi (anaconda requirement) is moot.
18:24 <         f13> | BobJensen: the issue is we'r emuch closer to something we'er happy with in pilgrim, rather than kadischi
18:26 <         f13> | thtas not the drawback
18:26 <         f13> | abadger1999: talk to jeremy about the drawbacks regarding kadischi
18:27 < abadger1999> | Oh I know there are other drawbacks :-)
18:27 < abadger1999> | But anaconda has been the one that has caused me the most personal grief.
18:28 <   BobJensen> | Does anyone have a link to this pilgram code so we can take a look at it?
18:29 < abadger1999> | Do you have git installed?
18:29 <   BobJensen> | Like I said we looked and found nothing
18:29 < abadger1999> | I can tar it up if not.
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18:29 <   BobJensen> | sorry about that
18:29 <         f13> | BobJensen: http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/david/pilgrim.git;a=blob_plain;h=aa64cfda24576f3cb81b2ab99b2aae0fb0a2b8ae;f=README.fedora
18:30 <   BobJensen> | f13: thanks
18:30 <     autopsy> | abadger1999, either way, I would like to see it too, tarball or git, is there somewhere we can retrieve pilgrim to look at it?
18:30 <     autopsy> | oop, nevermind.
18:30 < abadger1999> | One of pilgrim's drabacks is speed.
18:31 <         f13> | http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/david/pilgrim.git being the actual git repo
18:32 <         f13> | davidz -- sit down with technical leaders and come up with a roadmap for the liveCD itself, and figure out ways to get liveCD creation integrtaed into our release process
18:33 <   BobJensen> | And please document and share the processes with the community so the community does not waste it's time reinventing the wheel
18:34 <         f13> | BobJensen: it will happen IN the community
18:34 <         f13> | on public mailing lists, or maybe at FUDCon
18:34 <         f13> | BobJensen: so....
18:35 <         f13> | BobJensen: are you interested in producing betas and a final official Live CD for FC6 based on pligrim?  If we give you some support in using pilgrim.
18:36 <         f13> | we'd like to get the liveCD by thanksgiving.
18:36 <   BobJensen> | f13: yes, the community wants and needs Live Media
18:37 <         f13> | BobJensen: can you email davidz@redhat.com to get this rolling?  Davidz is(was?) on the liveCD list too, perhaps just taking over the list and discussing pilgrim there will be best.
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18:38 <   BobJensen> | Fedora Unity is not opposed to using any Free tools to make what we do, we had access to Kadischi and knew Jasper so that is the way we went
18:39 <   BobJensen> | f13: I will email davidz this week
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18:44 <      warren> | Decision: everyone going on fedora-livecd-list to continue discussion
18:44 <         f13> | Ok, LiveCD beat into the ground.
18:45 <         f13> | thinking about what to talk about...
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18:53 <   daMaestro> | I have a question. Is the Fedora Project (proper) still interested in trying out Plone for the front page of fedoraproject.org and fedora.redhat.com? I have been giving access to a test Xen machine to get things setup and would like to know if it is just going to be a waste of my time.
18:53 <   daMaestro> | s/giving/given/
18:55 <         f13> | daMaestro: talk to max.
18:55 <   daMaestro> | f13, ok.
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19:04              * | twunder is back
19:04 <      glezos> | daMaestro, the Docs project eagerly awaits the Plone infrastructure to get built.
19:05 <   daMaestro> | glezos, Plone and Zope now have no maintainer. I can't even do an install from Extras at this point.
19:06 <   daMaestro> | glezos, Also, I need to get some Pluggable Authentication Service (PAS) bits packaged up so we can tie it in with the new Accounts System.
19:06 <      glezos> | daMaestro, go for it! :)
19:07 <   daMaestro> | glezos, nman64 is working with me to get setup. I also need to know if any add-on products are expected to be used as they will also need to be packaged and added to Extras. http://plone.org/products
19:07 <      glezos> | daMaestro, if I understood correctly, yesterday a conversation was made for giving more emphasis on the Websites aspect. Probably hire someone to coordinate things etc. Take a look at the IRC log.
19:09 <      glezos> | daMaestro, I guess you are the person and the Infrastructure is the team (and probably the IRC channel, or maybe #fedora-websites) to decide for these things. :)
19:09 <   daMaestro> | glezos, The Fedora Unity Project has learned a lot about skinning plone ( BobJensen and I hacked it up for a while ) and we can now break out of the standard plone look. http://fedoraunity.org/
19:10 <      glezos> | daMaestro, great, these are good news. Keep up the good work. I think we should probably move this discussion to #fedora-websites or the infrastructure mailing list.
19:10 <   daMaestro> | glezos, Will do. I have been very busy lately catching up on things that have been put off for a while.
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19:13 <      glezos> | daMaestro, OK. Many Fedora sub-projects are looking forward to seeing the Plone site coming up. Especially Docs. So keep up the good work, and talk with the other people in the groups for help and support. :)
19:13 <       quaid> | +1
19:18 <     |DrJef|> | does max read comments to his blog?
19:18 <     |DrJef|> | http://spevack.livejournal.com/4170.html?thread=2378#t2378
19:18 <     |DrJef|> | here is my semi-annual pimping of the volunteer management handbook document to fedora leadership
19:19 <     |DrJef|> | if you havent read the first 18 pages... read them
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21:11 <     Questor> | ping greendisease
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21:21 <      smooge> | |DrJef|, thats too long what is the powerpoint slide that covers all 18 pages with 3 bullet points :)
21:21 <     Questor> | Hi smooge, |DrJef|
21:26 <     Questor> | d'oh
21:26              * | Questor wonders if someone could change the topic here to "Meeting over:  You may return to your regularly scheduled pandemonia."
21:27            --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: Summit has ended.  Thanks for all the fish!
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21:28 <     Questor> | t'anks f13 :)
21:29 <         f13> | np
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21:48 <     |DrJef|> | smooge, dont you mean odp slides?
21:48 <     |DrJef|> | smooge, ppt is forbodden
21:49 <      smooge> | no management.. it needs to have a ppt with wmv video imbedded
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22:13              * | lmacken rolls out of bed
22:13 <     lmacken> | damn, i missed day 3 :(
22:13 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: i missed it also
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23:27 <     mdomsch> | FYI, today's logs at http://domsch.com/linux/fedora/fedora-summit.log.20061115
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02:26 <       cweyl> | bigb1ue
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02:40 <    jwb_gone> | cweyl, huh?
02:44 <       cweyl> | jwb_gone: erm, scratch that.
02:44 <    jwb_gone> | ;)
02:44 <       cweyl> | ok, password changed :)
02:45              * | cweyl blushes
02:45 <   BobJensen> | lol
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05:44            --> | cweyl is Chris Weyl
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06:38            --- | You're now known as thl
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09:20            --- | Users 30 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 29 normal] 
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13:54 <         jwb> | so why are we all in here still?