| NEWS: (updated 2008-09-30) Infrastructure status | New SSH fingerprints | New package signing key |
FedoraSummit/SummitIRCLog
From FedoraProject
14:15 < f13> | *yawn* time to start the day
14:23 < glezos> | f13, it's a nice day to start, no? :)
14:23 < glezos> | s/nice/fun
14:37 < glezos> | off to work
14:37 <-- | glezos has quit ("Leaving")
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15:54 < jwb> | f13, starting soon?
15:55 * | smooge has come to the Cabal meeting representing the Gnomes of Sandia
15:56 * | thl googles for Gnomes of Sandia
15:57 * | jwb represents nobody
15:57 < smooge> | we are an offshoot of the Gnomes of Zurich.. but had a falling out of the great GPL war of 1994
15:58 < Lovechild> | jwb: then so long as nobody informs the community we'll be fine..
15:58 < jwb> | :)
15:58 < f13> | jwb: we just got wireless going
15:59 < f13> | waiting on a few more people to show up.
15:59 < jwb> | f13, bah. wireless is for mortals. real men just send brain waves directly to freenode
15:59 --> | gregdek (gaim) [n=gdk@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
15:59 < smooge> | well other than Rex.. everyone should be from the same timezone.. :)
16:00 --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: Setting the Agenda
16:00 < gregdek> | Howdy do, folks.
16:00 <@greendiseas> | hey fools
16:00 < jwb> | gregdek, so are you "the voice"?
16:00 < gregdek> | As everyone gets started, /me wanders off to the can. :)
16:00 < Lovechild> | howdy ho gregerino
16:00 < gregdek> | I am the voice, yes.
16:00 < jwb> | k
16:00 * | quaid hip-hop handshake and hug to gregdek
16:01 < quaid> | greendisease: howdy dude
16:01 < f13> | gregdek will be the first voice
16:01 <-- | abostrom has quit ("Leaving")
16:02 < f13> | which means I'll not pay attention for a while.
16:02 <@greendiseas> | quaid: w0ow, youre up early
16:02 < quaid> | greendisease: weekly Enterprise Marketing meeting ... 9:30 a EST *ugh*
16:03 --> | abostrom (Alexander Bostrom) [n=abo@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:05 < gregdek> | quaid: Yo, whassup, my brutha.
16:05 < gregdek> | All righty.
16:07 < gregdek> | So today is probably going to be around the issues regarding the opening of infrastructure.
16:09 < gregdek> | I hope and presume that someone is logging the channel, since this is where I'm taking notes for the day. ;-)
16:09 < gregdek> | Max speaks... "this is the time to do a lot of the things with Fedora that we've been talking about for the last few months. We've got management focus to really kick some ass right now."
16:10 < jwb> | full logs can be made available for only 3 payments of $15.95. if you act now, we'll throw in the logs of #fedora-extras for free!
16:10 < jwb> | ;)
16:10 < danpb> | i'll do logs for only $14.95 & throw in a free pony !
16:10 --> | spot (spot) [i=spot@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:10 < gregdek> | "...we've also got the possibility to be a bit subversive. We spend a lot of time trying to get people on-board internally with the Fedora plan, but the times comes when, if people don't get on board, we route around them. That's where we are with Fedora right now."
16:11 --> | jbowes (James Bowes) [i=jbowes@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:11 < gregdek> | "...we've been talking about a world in which anyone can contribute to Core, or 'opening Core' or whatever, and anyone can participate. That's what we're trying to get to."
16:11 < gregdek> | (General nodding and agreement in the room.)
16:12 < spot> | is there an audio stream or a dialin?
16:12 < gregdek> | Jeremy speaks: "So let me play devil's advocate: what does opening Core gain us?"
16:13 < jwb> | spot, no. i asked that already
16:13 < gregdek> | spot: There is not, sorry. But if you want to throw something in, let me know. I know I'm a poor medium here.
16:13 < spot> | KDE is the most obvious "why open core" answer
16:13 < gregdek> | Max: "...what we gain is actually being a community distribution, run in a community way."
16:13 < gregdek> | Jesse: "Removing roadblocks to community contribution."
16:13 * | gregdek mentions Spot's comment.
16:14 < gregdek> | Jesse: "When Red Hat *maybe* cares about 500 packages at a time, max."
16:15 < gregdek> | Jeremy: "Continuing to play devil's advocate, blah blah blah."
16:15 < gregdek> | :)
16:15 < Lovechild> | it would also help to raise our profile which seems important, especially shaking that "red hat lite" image
16:16 < gregdek> | Warren: "Lowering the roadblocks to contribution makes Fedora an actual meritocracy."
16:17 < jbowes> | it would be nice to not have two different build systems, etc. as well
16:17 < spot> | ... this telephone game is going to give me a headache.
16:17 < jwb> | jbowes, yes. that doesn't really mean that Core has to be open
16:18 < jwb> | (playing devil's advocate with jeremy)
16:18 < spot> | is there no polycom in the room?
16:18 * | spot can set up a toll-free bridge
16:18 < jwb> | spot, that would be nice...
16:19 < jbowes> | jwb: agreed. but the two would be easier if done together
16:19 < jwb> | jbowes, sure
16:19 * | greendisease hits spot over the head
16:19 <@greendiseas> | i told you you should just fly here
16:20 < gregdek> | spot: We're still trying to figure out if we can use the phone in this office. :)
16:20 < spot> | greendisease: sure. clear my calendar for the next two days.
16:20 * | spot points out that he gets paid to eat braiiiins, not work on Fedora.
16:21 <@greendiseas> | word
16:22 < gregdek> | Rex: "You know what, it all starts with a policy decision. We can all agree that we can change the definition of 'what ships' as 'what's in the Fedora Universe," not necessarily what's in Core. And we can start the ball rolling right now by moving a ton of packages from Core to Extras.
16:23 < gregdek> | Jeremy: "We don't want to necessarily wait to move packages from Core to Extras. If we wait until we've got all the revision control questions sorted, it gets harder to move immediately."
16:24 < jwb> | that depends
16:26 < gregdek> | Max: "Here's the trivial case we must solve. Thunderbird spec file is broken. It's a one-line fix. Twenty people post the fix in Bugzilla. It blocks on a RH engineer having time to commit the change. That's broken, and we need to fix it."
16:26 < gregdek> | Jeremy: "Which is more important to fix immediately: build system, or source control. Build system is what gets us moving now."
16:27 < Lovechild> | well given the glacial pace at which people normally make big decisions would it not be good to move as many package now then open the question of a cvs replacement to the extras people. That way we get the benefit of being able to fix stuff now
16:28 * | gregdek speaks Lovechild's mind. :)
16:29 < jwb> | just moving packages from one repo to another doesn't really solve anything though
16:29 < gregdek> | Jesse responds: "We need more than plague to do this. Something that has package collections, package tagging, freezes, etc. And rather than building that infrastructure around CVS, we might need to change that first."
16:29 < gregdek> | Jesse responds from the Build Master perspective, heh.
16:30 < Lovechild> | Jesse speaks wisdom though, no reason to build a house on a foundation of quicksand
16:30 < jwb> | f13, be careful with the term Freeze
16:30 < jwb> | Extras doesn't freeze
16:30 < gregdek> | Sounds like that's something we'll be discussing. :)
16:31 < gregdek> | Looks like Extras and Core folks will have to meet in the middle to figure out what a "release" is going to look like.
16:31 < jwb> | most likely
16:31 < gregdek> | In a brave new world, how do we come up with a concept of "release" for CD spins, etc., that can contain both Extras and Core?
16:32 < gregdek> | Jeremy: "This is why it takes Debian 3 years for a release. This is why Ubuntu has very different rules for Main and Universe. This is why OpenSuSE... well, has OpenSuSE released?"
16:33 --> | craigt (Unknown) [n=cthomas@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:34 < gregdek> | Much talking about "what policies need to exist distinguishing Core and Extras."
16:34 < jwb> | the way i see it, Core and Extras is just a logical line that is materialized into a physical means via separate repositories
16:34 < jwb> | merge into a common repo, and you have what really exists
16:35 < jwb> | you have fedora. then you can talk about what packages comprise a Fedora Base
16:35 < gregdek> | Blizzard arrives! He looks like he slept in a box under the freeway.
16:35 < Lovechild> | oh.. mental images.. the horror
16:35 < jbowes> | hehe
16:36 < gregdek> | Jesse: "Figuring out the use case for what we ship tells us what we target for freeze, while the community continues to roll forward."
16:36 < jwb> | yes
16:36 < gregdek> | Blizzard was up until 2am working on OLPC, poor bastard.
16:36 < gregdek> | DaveJ: "Security folks are also tracking stuff somewhat in Core."
16:37 < jwb> | they can do that in a merged repo
16:37 < gregdek> | Warren is drawing a smiley face on the whiteboard. No, it's a hat. No, it's a dinner plate! No, it's a conceptual map of the Fedora Universe!
16:37 < Lovechild> | f13: Maybe some what similar to what rpath does with conary.. premade isos and isos on demand?
16:37 --> | nasrat (Paul Nasrat) [n=nasrat@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:37 < gregdek> | No, it's actually a dinner plate.
16:37 < jwb> | packages don't magically disappear or change names when put into a different repo
16:38 * | gregdek waits to pass along jwb's wisdom.
16:38 < jwb> | ugh, please refrain from calling any of my drivel "wisdom" ;)
16:38 --> | wjd (W J Dearborn) [n=wjd@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:38 < samfw> | i think he was being sarcastic
16:39 < gregdek> | Jesse: "At the end of the day, people will want to spin ISOs based on both 'stuff we call Core' and 'stuff we call Extras'. Therefore, we must either freeze everything, or nothing at all."
16:40 < gregdek> | Blizzard: "We really need to shrink what we call 'the Base'. The stuff that *really* needs to be *stable* is actually fairly small."
16:40 < gregdek> | Jeremy: "What is the platform is a really big one."
16:41 < gregdek> | Wow. Blizzard is talking all about his "Bigger Tent."
16:41 --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: Setting the Agenda. Brought to you by Smiling Bob.
16:43 < gregdek> | So I have proposed THE LARGE GOAL, which is this: "Allowing anybody to contribute packages to the Universe, and allowing anybody to build their own distro based on that package set."
16:43 < Lovechild> | one could see how derived projects would benefit from blizzards tiny stable base and then a concept of say a gnome-desktop but then the variantions become endless and if we go down that road looking at rbuilder might not be a bad idea
16:43 < gregdek> | And we're now discussing this philosophically to make sure it's the right goal. (Which we seem to agree on.)
16:45 < Lovechild> | one of Fedora' great strenghts is clearly that it's a nice base for a derived project: RHEL, OLPC, PS3' OS.. all build on Fedora. We should definitely hang on tightly to that goal
16:45 < jwb> | yes
16:45 < thl> | +1
16:46 --> | jrb (Unknown) [i=jrb@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:46 < Lovechild> | while a bit to technical for this stage in the game I would urge having a look at what rbuilder does since it seems to be good at that task specificly
16:47 < gregdek> | Blizzard: "We should also CELEBRATE all of these downstreams, which we've never really done."
16:47 < jwb> | what does that mean?
16:47 < gregdek> | I'm trying to find that out. :)
16:47 < Lovechild> | completely agreed, I'm often sad that we don't congratulate people like Yellow dog for selecting Fedora as the base for a massive deployment
16:47 < gregdek> | Basically, if Fedora is so sweet, we should be bragging about that.
16:48 < gregdek> | General nodding and agreement.
16:48 < jwb> | we do...
16:48 < gregdek> | Apparently not enough. ;-)
16:48 < jwb> | or is he talking about taking out ads in NYTimes or something?
16:48 < jwb> | anyway, doesn't matter much. need more rah, rah for fedora. got it
16:48 < Lovechild> | press releases and general community praising would be a good place to start..
16:49 --> | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:49 < nasrat> | but some downstreams are appalling about pushing patches back up
16:49 < nasrat> | despite much prodding
16:49 < Lovechild> | maybe we could try and give Fedora Advocates a bigger profile, I would love to go out and preach the fedora gospel some more
16:49 < jwb> | nasrat, yeah. i'm a bit cautious about celebration ATM too
16:52 < Lovechild> | on the other hand if the fedora community enmass praised these people for selecting Fedora out of the many platforms to build on, we could get them to partake a bit in the fun. I think we should at least try to reach out to these people, if for nothing but to tell the world that there's Fedora in <foo>..
16:52 --> | blizzard (Christopher Blizzard) [n=blizzard@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:52 < gregdek> | OK, so we are going to state, clearly, the reasons we're choosing to open Fedora:
16:52 < gregdek> | 1. A bigger tent. More people involved means a better distro.
16:52 < gregdek> | 2. Allows for Fedora use cases that we don't envision: innovation happens at the edges.
16:53 < gregdek> | 3. Makes it easier to build downstream distros -- which people are already doing, so we can at least make it easier. (RHEL, OLPC, PS3, etc.)
16:54 < Lovechild> | it should probably be innovation happens everywhere and we want to allow it to happen freely
16:55 < Lovechild> | otherwise it implies that base doesn't innovate or that we dont.. which would be playing down the efforts of the platform community
16:55 --> | brezhnev (gaim) [n=brezhnev@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:55 < gregdek> | (Warren is busily restating point 1 as "meeting the community halfway." So let it be recorded.)
16:55 --> | apuch (Andrew Puch) [i=apuch@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:56 --- | apuch is now known as wilee
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16:56 < gregdek> | 4. Making it easier for downstream to commit their interesting changes back to us.
16:57 < gregdek> | Spot calls Aurora retarded. And he would know.
16:58 < gregdek> | Now general talk about making the build tools available.
16:58 < gregdek> | But we can do more.
16:58 < gregdek> | I LIKE COCAINE.
16:58 < blizzard> | speaking of freebasing
16:59 --> | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:59 < jwb> | what?
16:59 < gregdek> | Nothing.
16:59 < gregdek> | Moving on:
16:59 --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 11am. Identifying the Problems to be Solved for Opening Fedora.
16:59 < gregdek> | Max is making a list on the board. To wit:
16:59 < f13> | jwb: Fedora is a freebase from which to smoke your own flavor of crack
16:59 < jwb> | f13, ah thanks
17:00 < Lovechild> | f13: just don't do a Richard Pryor on us now
17:00 < gregdek> | 1. Build Infrastructure for both packages and distro.
17:00 < gregdek> | 2. Source infrastructure.
17:00 < gregdek> | 3. Release methodology: freezes, updates.
17:00 < gregdek> | 4. Architectures.
17:00 < jwb> | 4 can tie into 1
17:01 < blizzard> | yes
17:01 < blizzard> | it can
17:01 --> | pink_trout (Pink Ponies) [n=TroutFis@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
17:01 < nasrat> | gregdek: there is nothing hard about posting to mailing lists (eg anaconda-devel-list) but people consistently fail to push patches that way
17:02 --- | greendisease sets modes [#fedora-summit +o gregdek]
17:02 <@ gregdek> | 5. QA and Testing.
17:02 < dgilmore> | gregdek: aurora isint quite retarded its like the dyslexic slightly dysfunctional half brother you dont want :D
17:02 < wilee> | Is sun java going to be in fc7 ?
17:02 < jwb> | wilee, offtopic at the moment
17:03 <@ gregdek> | Bits aren't dropping until March of 2007... so, no. And off-topic. ;-)
17:03 < spot> | sun java will go into Fedora when source code is available. :)
17:03 < wilee> | sorry , but this is a big deal to a lot of folks
17:04 <@greendiseas> | we understanfd, its just not part pof the discussion at this point
17:05 <@ gregdek> | It's a big deal to us too.
17:05 <@ gregdek> | But we've got plenty of time to think about it, heh.
17:07 <@ gregdek> | 3. Release methodology: freezes, updates, lifecycle, branding.
17:08 <@ gregdek> | 0. Platform. Fedora Standard Base, flavors, Live CD, etc.
17:10 < Lovechild> | so are we going for an Ubuntu like setup where the Fedora project commits to providing a base plus a desktop then leaves alternatives to the community in a collarobative fasion? Also how would that suit people like the OLPC who might want influence on base
17:11 <@ gregdek> | 6. Project Hosting.
17:13 < Lovechild> | if we have a distributed revision control system hosting everything on Fedora servers wouldn't be a major issue since the overlapping between spec files and packages wouldn't be huge.. right?
17:13 < jwb> | Lovechild, huh?
17:13 <@ gregdek> | Maybe.
17:14 <@ gregdek> | We're getting issues on the board right now, so we can put a timetable for discussion around them.
17:14 <@ gregdek> | So we're not going to drill down too deeply just yet.
17:14 < Lovechild> | understood
17:15 < Lovechild> | might we not have to look into communications infrastructure?
17:16 < jwb> | Lovechild, example?
17:17 < Lovechild> | jwb: it's suboptimal to allow derived projects without enabling them to talk together - we should harness the power for the freedom we are giving people by allowing them to work together.
17:17 --> | davidz (David Zeuthen) [n=davidz@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
17:18 < blizzard> | z of the david
17:18 < davidz> | c of the blizzard!
17:18 < dgilmore> | Lovechild: we have mailing lists, and irc do you want something like a jabber.fedoraproject.org server also?
17:18 < jwb> | Lovechild, what dgilmore said...
17:18 < thl> | please, not another communication way (like jabber) :-/
17:19 < thl> | it's hard enought to keep track of everything already
17:19 < dgilmore> | thl: indeed
17:19 < Lovechild> | dgilmore: I meant more when a new project is registered it would be nice if they also got free means of communications.. I would favor a means of communications that referencable from other teams like a mailing list with a webarchive
17:19 < f13> | Lovechild: that could fall under 'project hosting'
17:19 < thl> | Lovechild, i think the "enabling them to talk together" with improve over timne
17:19 < jwb> | Lovechild, i think that's part of 6. Project hosting
17:20 <@ gregdek> | Absolutely.
17:21 < Lovechild> | okay, I'll take your word for that then.
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17:23 <@ gregdek> | 7. IS/IT/Infrastructure issues.
17:23 < jwb> | ugh
17:23 < blizzard> | ?
17:23 <@ gregdek> | Heh. We hates it, precious.
17:23 <@ gregdek> | 8. I18N issues.
17:24 <@ gregdek> | 8. I18N/Docs related issues.
17:24 < jwb> | blizzard, IS/IT issues are always painful. doesn't matter what company is involved :)
17:26 < dgilmore> | gregdek: on 7 we need a better way for Fedora Infrastructure to communicate with Red Hat IS/IT
17:26 < jwb> | or find a company that is willing to host it all
17:27 < smooge> | on 7 you also need a better communication with Red Hat Finance (or whatever it its called) as money is what talks about priorities for RH IS/IT
17:27 <@ gregdek> | smooge: +1
17:28 < dgilmore> | smooge: on that we need some communication
17:30 <@ gregdek> | Break time. Back in a few.
17:31 <@ gregdek> | Next up: Platform Discussion.
17:34 < smooge> | The big thing is that IS/IT serves 2 masters which never works well. Finance controls the strings but works their puppets in IT, the customers control the request and work through their puppets in IT to finance
17:36 < wilee> | since this is a break
17:37 < blizzard> | smooge is ever the conspiracy theorist
17:37 < blizzard> | I miss smooge
17:37 <@ gregdek> | Gee, you'd think that smooge had worked with RH and knew all the poor suckers who still work there. Or something.
17:37 < f13> | bah
17:37 < blizzard> | <notting> dance, monkey, dance!
17:37 < f13> | smooge has no idea what it takes to release a product.
17:39 <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("Leaving")
17:39 < wilee> | what are the chances of getting brutus into extras ? http://www.omesc.com/modules/main_module/
17:40 < jwb> | wilee, you should ask on #fedora-extras
17:40 < wilee> | ok
17:40 < jwb> | wilee, this channel usually doesn't even exist and is only here for a couple days to cover a meeting being held
17:42 <@ gregdek> | Getting started again.
17:43 < blizzard> | greg keeps hurting me
17:43 --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 11:45am, Fedora Orbital Mind Control Lasers (i.e. Platform)
17:44 < warren> | crap. I didn't know it did mind control too.
17:44 < blizzard> | warren: then we've succeeded
17:44 < smooge> | f13, you are quite right.. never did it myself.. never tried to run a mirror, and never tried to figure out how to cut costs to meet a price mark
17:44 < f13> | hehe
17:45 < f13> | smooge: clearly you're just talking out your arse.
17:45 * | davidz uhh; Orbital Lasers again!! More talk about blowing up Denmark?
17:45 <@ gregdek> | Now we are discussing the "Fedora Platform" or the "Fedora Standard Base".
17:45 < warren> | katzj: Obviously Part of Platform: What compiler?
17:45 < warren> | blizzard: Stuff comfortable making promises about
17:45 < warren> | davej: There will be a kernel
17:47 < warren> | katzj: Include things that are obvious: base kernel, compiler, glibc, GNOME, X
17:47 < warren> | notting: guaranteeing ABI of a particular version of that platform
17:47 < warren> | blizzard: 20 guys on GNOME, 1 guy on KDE
17:47 < warren> | notting: that could change, we have community
17:47 < warren> | blizzard: question of release criteria
17:47 < warren> | blizzard: enough interest, anything can become part of the release
17:47 < warren> | katzj: platform implies a certain thing over life of release
17:48 < warren> | Extras, rolling release, Core, updates
17:48 < warren> | mindset sort of thing
17:48 < warren> | Platform do updates
17:48 < warren> | other things have rolling
17:49 < warren> | bits in platform works together with each other
17:49 < warren> | Extras - bumping is OK, as long as you bump five other things
17:49 < warren> | Platform - minimalize changes that require other changes
17:49 < warren> | davej: kernel interfaces change
17:49 < warren> | blizzard: too easy to get trapped into RHEL mindset, are important, but not as important
17:50 < warren> | barrier for making change (warren: progress) in Fedora is lower
17:50 --> | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
17:50 < warren> | katzj: some scientific libraries in Extras move faster, not part of platform
17:51 < warren> | blizzard: why care about platform?
17:51 < warren> | katzj: care because if we are allowing spins at arbitrary points of time, there have to be things that are consistent at that point
17:51 < warren> | not in the middle of a mass rebuild for a new gcc
17:51 < warren> | jkeating: "Fedora" release must be what is declared for that released platform
17:52 < warren> | (talking too fast)
17:52 * | warren argh!!!
17:52 --> | jrp (Dark Reaper) [n=whatever@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
17:52 < warren> | blizzard: 1) Lead up to release
17:52 < warren> | 2) post-release
17:53 < warren> | katzj: Platform is what defines a release point.
17:53 < warren> | blizzard: time based releases
17:53 < warren> | notting: ABI's in core change!
17:53 < warren> | katzj: argh!!!!
17:54 < warren> | notting: we've changed RPM in the past
17:54 < warren> | gregdek: never again change RPM until the day we replace it
17:54 < warren> | blizzard: choice of ABI change, x.org 7.0/7.1, want to bump to 7.1
17:54 < warren> | example of gratuitous
17:54 < warren> | decided not to do so
17:54 < warren> | jkeating: balance we have to strike
17:55 < warren> | blizzard: enable making some of those choices
17:55 < warren> | (wanting to provide choice of 7.0 or 7.1)
17:55 < warren> | davej: need to provide drivers for too many flavors
17:55 < warren> | katzj: why is X interesting to do that and gcc isn't.
17:55 < warren> | gregdek: agree on notion of promise, platform
17:55 < warren> | blizzard: promise to make to ourselves
17:56 < warren> | We know as a community we can do the work to get something out the door.
17:56 < warren> | Post-release the promise is different.
17:56 < warren> | No gratutious ABI breakage unless there is great end-user benefit
17:56 < warren> | Post-release, promise to maintain the platform
17:56 < warren> | update if necessary
17:57 < warren> | Promise to not gratuitously break.
17:57 < Lovechild> | would this include roadmap promises like Fedora Platform Foo will ship GCC 4.1.x, xorg 7.2, etc?
17:57 < warren> | Lovechild, kind of the idea yes.
17:57 < warren> | Lovechild, dependent on things we can't control though, like upstream schedules
17:58 < f13> | warren: Lovechild: we do some of htat now, with saying we'll target gnome foo-bar for the release.
17:58 < Lovechild> | naturally but an admirable goal
17:58 < warren> | notting: I want to write software for Fedora, what interfaces should I use?
17:58 < warren> | Change or remove things from platform, try to announce well in advance.
17:58 < warren> | jkeating: target this gcc, glibc, gnome version, try to know ahead of time by looking at roadmap
17:59 < warren> | promise that these components will be in the platform
17:59 < warren> | We've had it with GNOME, let people know why we are removing it in the future.
17:59 < warren> | (just an example)
17:59 < warren> | QA...
17:59 < jrb> | huh?
17:59 < jrb> | we're removing gnome?
17:59 < warren> | jrb, s/GNOME/foo/
18:00 < jrb> | we're replacing gnome with foo?
18:00 * | jrb misses some point...
18:00 < blizzard> | strawman :)
18:00 <@greendiseas> | i vote for xfce
18:00 < warren> | blizzard: Technical roadmaps are nearly impossible, that is why we do time based releases
18:00 < jwb> | that wasn't quite the context
18:01 < warren> | Gregdek: innovation will happen around us whether we (something do something) or not.
18:01 <@greendiseas> | we're just trying to define what the criteria for a roadmap should be
18:01 < davidz> | So.. anyone explain why is it interesting to know the versions of the components like X.org / gcc at all?
18:01 <@greendiseas> | and if we decide to drop something from the platform, we should let people know, vis-a-vis and accordsing to the roadmap
18:02 < warren> | gregdek: Question: Cases where we allow people outside to own packages, do we explicitly define notion of RH being prime maintainer?
18:02 < warren> | katzj: No, person is primary maintainer. Person works for RH, job function, might reassign, but ...
18:02 < warren> | Fedora is about people.
18:02 < davidz> | either I'm an open source developer and you can patch my sources... otherwise I'm an ISV (e.g. Real, Adobe) and just statically link everything but what the LSB tells me
18:02 < warren> | blizzard: Success condition over time, more external contributions over time.
18:03 < warren> | mozilla, took seven years
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18:03 < warren> | What happens when community folks say they want to maintain Xen?
18:03 < warren> | katzj: They wont want to.
18:03 * | davidz just not sure why it's useful to know the versions of e.g. X.org and gcc - apart from some fuzzy feeling that next Fedora will include new X.org, Cairo or gstreamer goodness
18:03 < davidz> | (for example)
18:03 < warren> | "Who wants to touch that? Be real.", says gregdek
18:03 <@greendiseas> | davidz: from an api perspective
18:03 < warren> | blizzard: We want to enable contribution, but gregdek: policy decision of board
18:04 <@greendiseas> | if we are going to define the release of this platform is based on Xorg.foo
18:04 < warren> | katzj: Who brought xen into distro? that's who leads that
18:04 <@greendiseas> | and we are encouraging derivatives
18:04 < davidz> | greendisease: no, either the app is open source and packager can patch... otherwise it's binary only and statically links everything but what the LSB prescribes
18:04 < warren> | Example: yum was brought into Fedora by community
18:04 < warren> | yum is maintained by community
18:04 < warren> | jeremy is package monkey
18:05 < warren> | blizzard: if RH wants to own something, RH needs to give resources, lead ... and be upstream
18:05 < warren> | warren: accountable
18:06 * | davidz thinks it would be a lot more useful to convey more high-level roadmap - e.g. "next Fedora will contain feature X, Y and Z", not "next Fedora will include X.org 7.2, gcc 4.3" etc. - e.g. features, not API/ABI
18:06 < blizzard> | davidz: ageed around the room, I think
18:06 < warren> | Who determines ownership of a particular package when the result is important to RH's business.
18:07 < blizzard> | he who steps up to the plate
18:07 < warren> | Sometimes inside, sometimes outside
18:07 < warren> | yum is proof that outside model can work
18:07 < warren> | notting: tried model of past, "gatekeeper", painful
18:07 < warren> | katzj: committer to upstream yum
18:08 < warren> | blizzard: if RH is failing, someone else can improve it on the side and prove they can do it better.
18:08 < warren> | currently no way of making this visible in a central location
18:08 < warren> | ALTERNATIVES!?
18:08 * | warren argh!!
18:09 < warren> | (i'm not sure how to transcribe what they are talking about now)
18:10 < Lovechild> | warren: then hit them with a cluebat
18:10 < warren> | gregdek: getting high off of dry-erase marker
18:10 < warren> | Greg intervention
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18:11 < warren> | Platform: This is the set of packages we will not break gratuitously.
18:12 < warren> | Graph: gratuitous breakage over packages
18:12 < warren> | curve
18:12 < warren> | glibc/gcc (left bottom)
18:12 < warren> | gnome X
18:12 --> | jwhimpel (Fedora Summit) [n=chatzill@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
18:12 < warren> | KDE/XFCE
18:12 < warren> | firefox
18:13 < warren> | kmod/madwifi (top right)
18:13 < warren> | davej: nvidia, like anyone uses that
18:13 < warren> | How do we come up with list of packages that are in the platform?
18:14 < warren> | strong visible roadmap: these are things that will be in this version
18:15 < glezos> | It would be so cool if we had a webcam in there... :/
18:16 < warren> | (Discussion of how to decide what exactly is a platform)
18:16 < warren> | more than just an ABI
18:16 <@greendiseas> | glezos: we're all really ugly, you probably dont want to see us on camera
18:16 < warren> | example: behavior of GNOME menus not going to change in an update
18:17 < glezos> | greendisease, a microphone
18:17 < glezos> | equally cool. anyway. This streaming is very useful too. :)
18:18 < warren> | Max: Care less about frequency of changes, care more about QA
18:18 < warren> | figure out if platform is small core set of stuff that all fedora building comes from
18:19 < warren> | How do you make it clear when not to update a package that breaks something
18:20 < warren> | Extras is rolling, but this will be problematic when EVERYTHING becomes Extras.
18:21 < warren> | Platform matters because you need a stable base to build upon.
18:21 < warren> | Rebuildability and maintainability.
18:21 < warren> | Part of the problem: Signaling other people to rebuild
18:21 < warren> | example: openssl
18:21 < warren> | rebuild openssl, oh crap!
18:21 < thl> | hasn't one of the fooBSDs a platform modell?
18:21 < warren> | everyone needs to rebuild everything that uses it
18:22 < warren> | jkeating: we do not want automated builds
18:22 < warren> | debian autorebuilds things against openssl
18:22 < warren> | jkeating, gregdek: need way to test builds to see if it breaks things
18:23 < warren> | katzj: distribution issues are huge, bandwidth resources necessary
18:23 < warren> | notting: build openssl, dep check repo, built in scratch collection, dep check again to see if fixed
18:24 < warren> | katzj: Today: Core defines the stable base with certain gcc/glibc, etc.
18:24 < warren> | blizzard: whatever version you happen to have at release time
18:24 < Lovechild> | well what's the magnatude of this issue, the majority of updates are harmless from this prespective right and the majority of contributors should be wise enough to shot off a mail or bugzilla entry when there's a problem like this - let's not define policy around corner cases
18:25 < warren> | Platform: All packages for which we will announce version at release time.
18:25 < warren> | katzj: a project communicates a set of features
18:25 < warren> | blizzard: fedora specific stuff, I want to do features, not versions
18:26 < warren> | Lovechild, "Should"
18:26 < warren> | Tool problem
18:26 < warren> | not a problem now, different policy for core than Extras.
18:27 < warren> | warren: occasionally is a problem in Extras
18:27 < warren> | (again: tools problem)
18:27 < warren> | Policy, violate, whack!
18:27 < warren> | Cascade of rebuilds happen in devel, but not released.
18:28 < glezos> | To generalize the idea for Platform, one idea is to define rough zones of package importance (where Platform is zone 1 and Core was something like zones 1-3). If distinction becomes modular and is reflected in final shipped CDs, then the more CDs one downloaded the more software he could install.
18:28 < warren> | gregdek: We need scratch tools, see what changes are need, "OMG! 600 packages?"
18:28 < warren> | katzj: really easy to tell, ABI change or not
18:28 < warren> | (something about pornography that I missed)
18:29 < Lovechild> | pornography.. oh man I so wanted to hear the context of that one..
18:30 < warren> | katzj: What is platform trying to do?
18:30 < warren> | trying to define a release
18:30 < warren> | set of stuff that a release is built around, distros built around
18:30 < warren> | can't have a rolling platform
18:30 < warren> | Extras is not the platform
18:30 < warren> | Core is the platform (now)
18:30 < warren> | Core is too huge as a platform
18:31 --> | stavrosg (Stavros Giannouris) [n=stavrosg@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
18:31 < warren> | some in Extras wants to stop these gratuitous breakages
18:31 < warren> | key question, how many changes does this change cascade to?
18:32 < warren> | Proposed policy statement, how many changes does this create?
18:32 < warren> | If more than X changes, requires approval from $HIGHER_AUTHORITY.
18:32 < warren> | want to avoid gratuitous change
18:32 < warren> | (tools problem)
18:32 < warren> | katzj: How bigness of change?
18:33 < warren> | openssl, backport security fixes to avoid gratuitous rebuild the world.
18:33 < warren> | notting: define common sense
18:33 < warren> | gregdek: define platform by common sense criteria, doomed to fail
18:33 < warren> | notting: but that is what we are trying to do
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18:33 < warren> | notting: invalidate documentation guides?
18:35 < warren> | Platform: Sliding scale that prevents gratuitous change when we move to a "Universe" model.
18:36 < warren> | (Extras could be held at a higher standard to avoid big cascading changes.)
18:36 < warren> | directfb?
18:36 < warren> | =(
18:36 * | warren wonders why we *NEED* things to be linked to directfb? how important is that really?
18:36 < mether> | how many volunteer packagers would be able to keep up with a 6 month release and freeze process?
18:37 < warren> | notting: don't write things in tcl!
18:37 < warren> | not i18nized
18:37 < warren> | blizzard: don't do new things in tcl
18:37 < warren> | (religious wars happening over table)
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18:37 < davidz> | gitk is tk IIRC
18:38 < davidz> | for example
18:38 < jwb> | it is
18:38 < jwb> | but qgit isn't
18:39 < warren> | (people are antsy and hungry)
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18:40 <@ gregdek> | Am I still here
18:40 <@ gregdek> | Yes, good. :)
18:41 < warren> | (having network connectivity issues)
18:41 < glezos> | Is defining a platform enough for solving the problems it addresses? Or a more general ranking of package importance is needed (where really important packages == Platform)?
18:44 < f13> | glezos: the platform helps us to define what the "more" important packages are.
18:44 < warren> | * Platform is a sliding scale to to prevent gratuitous change in our new universe world.
18:44 < warren> | * Platform provides some of what core provides now in terms of defining a release.
18:45 < warren> | * We are defining common sense.
18:45 * | warren stomach growling.
18:45 < blizzard> | food
18:45 < blizzard> | we're ordering 'pies'
18:45 < blizzard> | I want apple
18:45 --> | mizmo (Máirín Duffy) [i=duffy@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
18:46 --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 12:45 AM -- lunch break
18:46 < samfw> | late lunch :)
18:46 --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 12:45 PM -- lunch break
18:47 <-- | jberman has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:47 < blizzard> | hungry
18:47 * | lmacken rolls out of bed
18:47 < lmacken> | mornin'
18:51 --> | rdieter1 (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter1@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
18:57 < f13> | the hunger.
18:58 --> | coufer (Bart Couvreur) [n=bart@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
19:04 --> | mspevack (Max Spevack) [n=mspevack@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
19:04 < mspevack> | ok
19:04 < mspevack> | right now we're doing several things
19:04 < mspevack> | 1) waiting for pizza
19:05 < mspevack> | 2) gregdek is updating the FedoraSummit page based on some of the things we talked about this morning
19:05 < mspevack> | 3) people are sort of just bumping around on the internet for a little bit, kind of decompressing
19:05 < glezos> | In an ideal world, shipped CDs/media will contain gradually less imporant packages and one could get a system running with 1 CD
19:05 < glezos> | mspevack, thanks for the updates. :)
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19:12 < Lovechild> | glezos: in an ideal world I would be sleeping with Jessica Alba.. but sadly this is not an ideal world
19:12 --> | mdomsch (Matt Domsch) [n=mdomsch@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
19:13 < glezos> | Lovechild, I guess :) But that doesn't mean we shouldn't improve things, right?
19:14 < f13> | glezos: lowering the cd count is one goal.
19:14 < f13> | you _can_ get a system running with 1 cd NOW.
19:15 < jwb> | erm... since when?
19:19 < Lovechild> | jwb: as I recall if you select the desktop install using US english locale it will ask for the second cd but not use it.. it's not pretty though
19:19 < glezos> | f13, yeah.. I'm just wondering if with the upcoming FC/FE merge, we would be needing a way to rank packages with decreasing popularity/importance. Anyway, just some food for thought.
19:19 < jwb> | that means you need 2 CDs
19:20 < Lovechild> | jwb: you can probably just ignore the request for cd2.. I haven't tried it myself though since I use da_DK locale
19:20 < mdomsch> | glezos, RHN has a backend that lets RH corp know which packages are installed on any given system
19:20 < mdomsch> | I think that would be beneficial to Fedora too
19:20 < mdomsch> | installed != using, but it's a better proxy than nothing
19:20 < f13> | jwb: if you forgo gui, you only need 1 CD
19:20 < Lovechild> | mdomsch: kinda like popularity contest in debian?
19:21 < jwb> | f13, hm.. i recall doing just that on PPC and it still needed 2
19:21 < f13> | ppc is the broken platform
19:21 < f13> | because ppc needs a library that is ppc only and on CD 2
19:21 < mdomsch> | Lovechild, not familiar with that, but sounds right
19:21 < jwb> | ok
19:21 < f13> | I noted this in the TreeTesting page
19:21 < f13> | holy crap we have another ppc user.
19:21 < jwb> | you have more than you think
19:21 < Lovechild> | mdomsch: it's basically a tiny program that phones home to tell debian which packages you have installed..
19:22 < glezos> | um.. I'm on PPC too. :)
19:22 < f13> | jwb: not according to the download counts...
19:22 < jwb> | f13, we've been over this. ppc users are smart and just rsync rawhide a few days before the release ;)
19:22 < Lovechild> | both our PPC users in the same irc room...
19:23 < jwb> | dwmw2 has trained us well
19:23 < f13> | so is there enough ppc users to sustain the arch on its own? (like aurora?)
19:24 < jwb> | if you let external machines plug into the buildsys
19:24 < f13> | aurora doesn't...
19:24 < jwb> | which should be done for aurora
19:24 --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 2:00 restart with "Build Infrastructure"
19:25 < f13> | jwb: yeah, that topic is later.
19:25 < jwb> | f13, yep
19:25 < glezos> | Do we have an estimation on the size of Fedora Universe?
19:25 < f13> | yes
19:26 < blizzard> | BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
19:27 < glezos> | FC+FE in GBs?
19:28 < Lovechild> | blizzard: I think you finally snapped...
19:28 < davidz> | blizzard: "ok, I'll have one"
19:28 < mdomsch> | glezos, ~5-6k packages
19:28 --> | mmcgrath (http://naim.n.ml.org/ user) [n=mmcgrath@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
19:28 < mdomsch> | ~3k SRPMS
19:28 * | mmcgrath is here
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19:32 < samfw> | mspevack: ping
19:32 < mspevack> | samfw: pong
19:36 < mspevack> | PIZZA IS HERE!
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19:59 < mspevack> | we're getting started
20:00 < mspevack> | dgilmore: ping
20:00 < dgilmore> | mspevack: pong
20:00 <@greendiseas> | dgilmore: read your private messages
20:01 < mspevack> | dgilmore: i sent you a /msg
20:01 --> | poelcat (John Poelstra) [i=slick@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
20:02 < dgilmore> | im there
20:02 < mspevack> | jesse is leading the conversation now
20:03 < Lovechild> | all hail Jesse.. leader of the free world
20:03 < mspevack> | mspevack is handling the IRC notes
20:04 < mspevack> | jesse -- "so, the build system. right now we have plague, which does ok for extras"
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20:04 < mspevack> | "not really any sort of management layer on top of plague -- collections, tagging, etc"
20:05 < mspevack> | conversation about how yum and plague interact (inheritance based on repos), etc.
20:05 < mspevack> | spot, toshio, and dgilmore on the phone
20:06 < mspevack> | jesse -- "important things that we want are:
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20:06 < mspevack> | collections with tags
20:06 < mspevack> | inheritance
20:06 < mspevack> | ability to create collections based on tags on the fly
20:07 < mspevack> | example -- someone wants to upgrade python, but it will break other stuff. so you create a dist-fc7-python collection that inherits from dist-fc7
20:07 < mspevack> | this idea extrapolates out to freezes"
20:07 < mspevack> | max -- "what about embargoes"
20:08 < mspevack> | jeremy -- "don't do much for it now, let's not worry about it for the moment"
20:08 < mspevack> | jesse -- "let's talk about what a tag is"
20:08 < mspevack> | package database. every time a package nvr is built, it is placed in the database with information (the build root, etc)
20:08 < mspevack> | if you want the package in dist-fc7, you tag the package in the db for dist-fc7
20:09 < mspevack> | then you can pull out all packages with a certain tag, for a release
20:09 < mspevack> | a "collection" is a set of packages with the same tag
20:09 < rdieter1> | r
20:09 < ChitleshGoo> | take for example, new guile in fc6 breaks geda packages in FE
20:09 < ChitleshGoo> | hence what should be done here ?
20:10 < mspevack> | what tags, collections, inheritance get us is a better way of getting stuff out of the build system
20:10 < mspevack> | these things don't exist in the extras build system, that we need
20:11 < mspevack> | to have in any sort of "global" build system for the Fedora Universe
20:11 < ChitleshGoo> | on fc5 guile-1.6 on fc6 guile-1.8, geda no longer works properly for fc6
20:12 < rdieter1> | ChitleshGoorah: imo, that's more geda's (ie, upstream) issue.
20:12 < jwb> | ChitleshGoorah, that is more along the lines of the topics discussed this morning. the meeting has moved on now
20:12 < warren> | mspevack, should mmcgrath be on the call too?
20:12 < mspevack> | mmcgrath: i'll /msg you the call in info
20:12 < ChitleshGoo> | rdieter1: but I'm releasing a broken geda for fedora
20:12 < mmcgrath> | warren: I'll be unavailable for another 40 minutes or so :(
20:12 < ChitleshGoo> | jwb: ok, anyone can send me the log ?
20:12 < mspevack> | jeremy -- "to overstate the obvious, we want to keep using mock"
20:13 < warren> | mmcgrath, things are ok, thanks.
20:13 < mmcgrath> | mspevack: thanks
20:13 < rdieter1> | ChitleshGoorah: is upstream aware?
20:13 < mspevack> | we just need some management on top of mock, which is what jesse is talking about
20:13 < ChitleshGoo> | rdieter1: yes
20:13 < mspevack> | jesse -- interesting questions are:
20:13 < warren> | ChitleshGoorah, that is not the current topic
20:13 < mspevack> | 1) do we add some of RHAT's internal tools on top of plague?
20:13 < ChitleshGoo> | warren: ok
20:13 < mspevack> | 2) do we continue to fight to get RHAT's internal changes externalized
20:14 < mspevack> | max -- "didn't the board say a month or so ago that if we didn't get progress by 11/15, we'd move on our own?"
20:16 < mspevack> | blizzard -- "instead of worrying about manpower, what if we took what is brew today and set it up outside?"
20:16 < mspevack> | jesse -- "would require a fair bit of rewrite"
20:17 < mspevack> | max -- comparative effort between implementing our own stuff on top of plague vs. getting RHAT's internal code ready for release?
20:17 < mspevack> | jesse -- "about the same:
20:17 < mspevack> | bill -- "are we allowed to take RHAT's internal code and put it out?"
20:18 < mspevack> | what we have heard is that the blocking factor is resources to get the existing code released.
20:18 < mspevack> | bill -- either way, we have very specific needs. so let's enumerate them
20:19 < mspevack> | brew has extra stuff that fedora doesn't need:
20:19 < mspevack> | - sarbox stuff
20:19 < mspevack> | - additional tracking
20:19 < mspevack> | - metadata that's useful for packages that customers are paying money for
20:19 < mspevack> | - etc.
20:19 < jwb> | why isn't that useful for fedora?
20:20 < mspevack> | that's what blizzard just asked
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20:20 * | thl will be afk now, sorry for leaving
20:20 < mspevack> | jesse -- "difference it makes is in bloat and slowdown, getting information out of build and into database, rate at which database will grow. problems we are dealing with internally"
20:20 < thl> | hae fun everyone
20:21 < mspevack> | all package header metadata is imported
20:21 < mspevack> | what I am hearing is that there's a lot of data
20:21 < mspevack> | all being tracked
20:21 --- | You're now known as thl_afk
20:21 < mspevack> | not necessarily being done in the best way possible internally
20:21 < mspevack> | and it needs to be fixed. so it would be nice to fix these problems in our Fedora work, rather than inherit new problems
20:21 < mspevack> | jesse -- "not sure how much of this stuff can just be turned off either"
20:22 < mspevack> | jeremy -- what features are necessary?
20:22 < mspevack> | VERY BASIC
20:22 < mspevack> | 1) build package via mock
20:22 < mspevack> | 2) queue packages
20:22 < mspevack> | 3) import package metadata into database
20:23 < mspevack> | 1) build package via mock from SCM
20:23 < mspevack> | 4) import build info
20:23 < mspevack> | question -- optional arches?
20:24 < mspevack> | dan -- code exists for enablign optional builds on secondary arches, it just isn't enabled right now
20:24 * | nirik thinks there might be a lot of tie in with this and the package database: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/PackageDatabase
20:25 * | mspevack just asked that same question
20:25 --> | georgemv (Giorgos Mavrikas) [n=georgemv@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
20:25 < mspevack> | 5) package owner tracking, multiple owners
20:25 < mspevack> | answer is "it's a very similar idea, and one *good* canonical package database can serve multiple purposes"
20:26 < mspevack> | 5a) "owner" tracking by tag/arch/etc
20:27 < mspevack> | *various conversation around these bullet points*
20:27 < mspevack> | ACLs around tags
20:28 < mspevack> | 6) tagless builds
20:28 < mspevack> | which are basically "scratch builds" that don't go into any collection
20:29 < mspevack> | blizzard would like these to be called "personal builds" because of the mindset that implies, and mspevack nods in agreement
20:29 < mspevack> | 7) chain builds
20:29 --> | vwirem (Van Wirem) [n=vwirem@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
20:30 --- | vwirem is now known as niavis
20:30 <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
20:31 < mspevack> | 8) integrate with "fedora identity management"
20:32 < mspevack> | and that needs to be a black box, making no assumptions on what the account system is at any given time
20:32 * | mspevack knows that we're going to talk about OpenID later on :-)
20:32 < Lovechild> | mspevack: that sounds awfully buzzwordy
20:32 < mspevack> | Lovechild: today it's the fedora account system, tomorrow it could be something else (like openid)
20:32 * | mmcgrath is on the bridge
20:33 < mspevack> | and we'd like any build system <-> account system communication not tie us into any sort of corner
20:33 < mspevack> | whether it's openID or not doesn't matter -- we want to be able to move to *something else* without too much pain
20:33 < mspevack> | Lovechild: better? :-)
20:34 < Lovechild> | I guess.. I'm not one to comment on that type of issue anyways.. it just sounded like marketing invaded or something
20:34 < mspevack> | LDAP is a likely delivery mechinism for credentials
20:34 < mspevack> | Lovechild: heh :-)
20:35 < mspevack> | 9) delivery mechanism
20:36 < mspevack> | 10) multilib logic, then compose tools can pull from a single place
20:36 --> | ChitleshGoorah (ircont9k) [n=ircont9k@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
20:37 < mspevack> | *continued discussion*
20:37 --> | graveyard (Ruben Kerkhof) [n=graveyar@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
20:37 < mspevack> | basically we're trying to make a list of the things a build system needs
20:37 < mspevack> | then we're going to figure out what of that exists *somewhere*
20:38 < mspevack> | then we'll see whether it makes more sense to force RHAT code into the open, or write new code in the open to begin with, that will serve our needs
20:38 * | mspevack just listens for a while
20:38 < Lovechild> | so long as we won't be chasing the opening of that code forever..
20:39 < mspevack> | Lovechild: no, we will not. i'm tired of waiting.
20:39 < mspevack> | what i want is a specific "we can release the code if you get us X engineering heads to do it" or "we'll never release the code, rewrite it yourselves" that answer should not take long to get
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20:40 < Lovechild> | that sounds reasonable and quite easy to get.. a black or white answer type thing.. if they don't want to give it to us at least they could stop us from wasting time.. easy to understand and respect
20:40 < mspevack> | *nod*
20:43 < mspevack> | some conversation about arches, which we table for later on
20:43 < mspevack> | now we're going through our feature list and understanding what already exists, and what doesn't
20:44 < Lovechild> | if we do get that code what is the time horizon in terms of hacking it to suit fedora... something we can do within the fc7 cycle or longer term?
20:44 < mspevack> | best estimate we've heard so far is "a couple of man months"
20:44 < mspevack> | which means we need to know what our course of action is pretty much ASAP
20:44 < Lovechild> | excellent guessimate
20:44 < mspevack> | like before Xmas
20:45 < mspevack> | Lovechild: i trust that was sarcastic :)
20:45 < Lovechild> | mspevack: with an uncertain status I think a couple of man months sounds reasonable.. so no..
20:45 < mspevack> | ah, ok
20:45 < Lovechild> | reasonable but brave
20:46 < mspevack> | 11) access to build root on failure
20:46 < mspevack> | bill -- we should ship a Fedora build configuration for mock
20:46 < mspevack> | jesse -- we have it in makefiles
20:46 < mspevack> | max -- then we need to make it better and/or make sure people know about it
20:47 < mspevack> | hey folks on IRC -- what are we missing. What do you folks who do so much packaging for us need?
20:47 < mspevack> | help us fill out the list.
20:49 < graveyard> | mspevack: some more up-to-date info about plague would be nice
20:49 < ChitleshGoo> | a possible way to upload and request builds via port 80
20:49 < mspevack> | build packages via mock (in both plague and brew)
20:49 <-- | niavis has quit ("Leaving")
20:49 < mspevack> | queue builds (both plague and brew)
20:49 < mspevack> | import buildinfo (BREW ONLY)
20:50 < mspevack> | owner tracking by packages (BREW ONLY)
20:50 < ChitleshGoo> | in my hostel, only port80 is open and I have so much kde rpms to share
20:50 < mspevack> | tagless builds (brew and plague)
20:50 < mspevack> | optional arches (NEITHER)
20:50 < mspevack> | personal collections (BREW ONLY)
20:50 < mspevack> | integrate with identity management (plague)
20:51 < mspevack> | delivery mechanism (neither, really)
20:51 < mspevack> | they require distill or rsync
20:51 < mspevack> | distill == RHAT's compose tool
20:51 < mspevack> | builders in different locations (plagues)
20:51 < mspevack> | graveyard: like what?
20:52 < graveyard> | the config example for plague-client on the wiki is outdated
20:52 * | mspevack will mention the IRC stuff in a break in the conversation
20:53 < graveyard> | and maybe some info on what to do if you get "insufficient privileges" errors
20:53 < graveyard> | but that may be just me :-)
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20:53 --> | ajax (Adam Jackson) [i=ajackson@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
20:53 < mspevack> | access to build root on failure (NEITHER does it right)
20:54 < Lovechild> | didn't lmacken have some specific input to the requirements at a higher level to provide nice metadata for stuff like security and the likes.. dunno if that's appliable to this debate
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20:58 < mspevack> | *much technical conversation that i won't even try to type in real time*
20:59 --> | chitlesh ([3ea0658d] chriscole.info CGI:IRC User) [i=cgiircus@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
20:59 < mspevack> | chitlesh: does it have to be port 80, or could it be port 443?
20:59 < mspevack> | sounds like a firewall issue
21:00 < chitlesh> | yes its a firewall, out of my control
21:00 < mspevack> | lmacken's work falls under delivery mechnism, right now it's all done out of band after the build process.
21:00 < chitlesh> | i can't say exactly but we might test some day
21:00 < mmcgrath> | chitlesh: http://www.publicproxyservers.com/ ?
21:01 < chitlesh> | mmcgrath: I can't tunnel anywhere!
21:01 < mmcgrath> | oh :\
21:02 < chitlesh> | even irc i can't connect except cgi-irc
21:02 <@greendiseas> | chitlesh: damn, where is this? a university?
21:03 < chitlesh> | a hostel
21:03 <@greendiseas> | ahh
21:03 <@greendiseas> | not even https?
21:03 < nirik> | chitlesh: not even openvpn's http proxy support? (This is off topic tho, so perhaps move to another channel for discussion?)
21:03 < chitlesh> | well better talk about this latter on
21:03 < quaid> | mspevack: docs and trans need some hooks into the build process, which are best defined by what is going to be done and what we have in docs/trans right now
21:03 < quaid> | mainly I mention so as to have you throw in a couple of staffing weeks to get the hooks included
21:04 < quaid> | the code that exists inside RH has been approved for release, but resources prevent us from doing it.
21:04 < mmcgrath> | heh
21:04 * | mspevack states quaid's points
21:04 < quaid> | we wouldn't necc. mind being more better hooked in, but it may not make sense.
21:04 < mspevack> | quaid: do you need hooks into build process, or into source control that manages what gets built?
21:05 < quaid> | e.g. we can have our own "docs rawhide" that is different form the RPMs that are built from docs
21:05 < quaid> | yeah, that is kind of my answer
21:05 < quaid> | we may not need to be hooked into the build, but at the same time ... maybe we should be
21:05 < quaid> | I can see now that the RHEL docs are being integrated into the packages in some fashion
21:06 --> | codergeek42_ (Peter Gordon) [n=peter@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
21:06 < mspevack> | quaid: we're going to devote a specific chunk of time to all docs later on, we will revisit then. Jesse's trying to reach some sort of "grand point" right now :-)
21:06 < mspevack> | docs, i18n, etc.
21:06 < quaid> | so if we are going to have an connection to that, it means we need to treat our XML like source in the VCS and be part of the packaging love
21:06 < quaid> | mspevack: roger that, it's related yet stand-alone
21:07 < quaid> | just if ... well, maybe someone in that room grok's what Red Hat ECS is doing here so could tell us if we need a consideration as part of f13's point or not :)
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21:07 < mspevack> | i think there's a good deal of ? above people's head right now. we have a "list of questions that need to be answered"
21:07 < mspevack> | we're going to get paul gampe on the phone
21:08 < mspevack> | quaid: why don't you call in?
21:09 < quaid> | sure
21:09 < mspevack> | i msg you the info
21:10 < mspevack> | ok, wrapping up (except for karsten)
21:10 < mspevack> | jesse -- we believe that we now have a list of things that we need for the next release, or else life will be awful
21:10 < mspevack> | davej - are we prepared to hold up the release?
21:10 < mspevack> | blizzard -- will require a great job of controlling scope
21:11 < mspevack> | from the phone -- infra team needs a MUCH BETTER picture of priorities
21:12 * | quaid is here
21:12 < quaid> | that is, on the phone :)
21:12 < warren> | quaid, was your earlier question related to alexandria?
21:14 < Lovechild> | well if we start the transistion we can't very well halt in the middle can we, we have to hold up the release or the infrastructure to release won't be there... rgiht?
21:15 < mspevack> | jesse adds to the board -- collection inheritance (tag builds for multiple collections)
21:16 < mspevack> | (BREW)
21:18 * | quaid is off now
21:18 < codergeek42> | Brew still? I thought Core was also transitioning to Mock like Extras. (?)
21:18 < jwb> | brew and plague both use mock
21:18 < mspevack> | codergeek42_: we're making a list of stuff in brew that we need to get into plague
21:18 < codergeek42> | Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
21:18 < quaid> | warren: hee hee, i should have remembered the name since I think i made it up in Fedora almost 2 year ago :)
21:19 < mspevack> | also on the board -- "packages in build root but not in a collection" (BREW)
21:21 < mspevack> | --- BREAK TIME ---
21:21 --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 3:30 restart on "source infrastructure"
21:22 < lmacken> | it is kind of hard to hear some of you guys
21:22 < mspevack> | we will speak up
21:22 < mmcgrath> | mspevack: I missed the part about OpenID. When will that be discussed?
21:22 < lmacken> | it kind of just chopped off towards the end
21:22 < mspevack> | we're on mute right now
21:22 < mspevack> | mmcgrath: open ID is our starting point tomorrow morning at 10:00ish
21:22 < spot> | mspevack: any chance we'll be talking about architecture tiering today?
21:22 < dgilmore> | mspevack: when is the sub arch stuff going to happen?
21:22 < spot> | i can't actually attend on tuesday or wednesday. :/
21:23 < mspevack> | sub arch?
21:23 < mmcgrath> | mspevack: I've been contacted about OpenID from Greg Dekoenigsberg, don't know if he should be on the bridge or not. Just letting you know.
21:23 < mspevack> | like 4 people said "sub arch???"
21:23 < spot> | mspevack: primary arch = x86, x86_64, sub arch = sparc, ppc, ia64, etc
21:23 < mspevack> | mmcgrath: yeah, you should be for sure. can you make tomorrow at 10?
21:23 < mspevack> | spot: we can do that after the source conversation
21:23 < mspevack> | so later this afternoon
21:23 < spot> | ok
21:23 <-- | sbarn has quit (Remote closed the connection)
21:23 --> | fraggle_ (Jerome Benoit) [n=fraggle@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
21:23 --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 3:30 restart on "source infrastructure", then primary/sub arches
21:24 < mmcgrath> | mspevack: yeah, I can be there.
21:24 < dgilmore> | mspevack: can you ping me when doing sub arches
21:24 --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- 3:30 topic is source infrastructure, then primary/sub arches, openID 10:00 tuesday
21:24 < dgilmore> | ill call back in
21:24 < mspevack> | dgilmore: yes
21:24 --> | gregdek (gaim) [n=gdk@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
21:24 * | mspevack takes a quick afk break
21:27 * | mspevack has decided (and those on the FPB in person have voted yes) that we shall start doing this pseudo-realtime IRC logging for our board calls
21:29 < jwb> | mspevack, that would be very nice
21:29 < glezos> | mspevack, good idea
21:30 < abadger1999> | mspevack: Great!
21:30 <-- | gregdek has quit (Remote closed the connection)
21:31 < spot> | hooray!
21:31 < abadger1999> | It'll improve what we outsiders can see the FPB doing.
21:31 < graveyard> | cool!
21:31 < codergeek42> | great idea :D
21:31 < quaid> | even where I have zero input, I feel as if I'm part of the process when that is done
21:32 < spot> | i would say that we'd like to see the Shadow Core Cabal do the same thing, but we're in the process of making them obsolete. ;)
21:32 < mspevack> | spot: yeah, hopefully there won't *BE* a shadow core cabal for much longer
21:33 < f13> | spot: the shadow core cabal meetings happen in the carpool to and from the office (:
21:33 < jwb> | spot, that's an interesting point because it has implications for FESCo as well
21:33 < mspevack> | OK, STARTING AGAIN -----------------
21:33 < mspevack> | Source control
21:33 < mspevack> | conversation being led by Jeremy Katz
21:33 < mspevack> | mspevack is still the IRC bitch
21:34 < mspevack> | f13 is secondary IRC bitch
21:34 < spot> | phone is on mute!
21:34 < f13> | we're waiting for blizzard
21:34 < mspevack> | phone is active!
21:34 * | warren tertiary IRC bitch
21:34 < mspevack> | on the phone -- spot, luke, WHO?
21:35 < mspevack> | source control -- where we are today:
21:35 < abadger1999> | mspevack: Toshio
21:35 < f13> | dist-cvs
21:35 < f13> | (we're ignoring that core and extras are in different repos)
21:35 < mspevack> | phone -- also toshio and jwb who is lurking :-)
21:35 < jwb> | :)
21:35 --> | Foolish (Sindre Pedersen Bjordal) [n=foolish@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
21:36 < mspevack> | we face all the normal warts of CVS (branch issues, etc) but it *works*
21:36 < mspevack> | jeremy "i'm going out on a limb and say that this isn't the big problem that stops us from making all our bigger progress"
21:36 < mspevack> | greg "i mostly agree, but does this make it easier or harder to move changes back and forth between fedora and rhel"
21:36 < mspevack> | bill "if we move core into what is basically extras, it will be harder"
21:36 < mspevack> | jesse "even harder if we move to another external source system
21:37 < mspevack> | jeremy "not a major blocker, but we do want to be making progress on it"
21:37 < mspevack> | would we hold up fedora release for solutions?
21:37 < mspevack> | build system problems-- yes
21:37 < mspevack> | source control-- no
21:38 < mspevack> | issues if we move "core" to "extras"
21:38 < mspevack> | 1) break access for large number of people inside RH who don't have fedora accounts
21:39 < mspevack> | (a self-correcting problem. needs to be addressed because these are potential political problems)
21:40 < mspevack> | 2) incremental pain of 2 cvsroots
21:40 < mspevack> | bill -- "what's going to happen to cvs.f.r.c when we dump external load on it"
21:41 < mspevack> | max -- "can't we just buy new boxes?"
21:41 < mspevack> | bill -- "yes, we just won't know what we need immediately"
21:41 < mspevack> | but regardless, there is money for boxes
21:41 < jbowes> | moneybags spevack
21:41 < blizzard> | finding change in the couch
21:42 < mspevack> | jbowes: not after buying lunch for this crew today :-)
21:42 < mspevack> | ok, back to the topic at hand
21:42 < mspevack> | *discussion about ACLs*
21:42 < mspevack> | we have them in internal CVS
21:42 < mspevack> | but not in external CVS
21:42 < mspevack> | bill -- 2 levels of ACLs
21:42 < mspevack> | you have to be in a particular group
21:43 < mspevack> | and then there are ACLs per directory
21:43 < f13> | 'in a particular group to access cvs at all'
21:44 < mspevack> | gregdek -- "why do we need acls"
21:44 < mspevack> | in theory -- to keep people from just throwing stuff in willy-nilly
21:45 < |DrJef|> | mspevack, is that a real problem currently.. or is that still a percieved problem?
21:46 < Lovechild> | also it makes people feel important when they are trusted with more destructive abilities
21:46 < mspevack> | hang on. i'm talking and i can't type at the same time :-/
21:46 < f13> | |DrJef|: its percieved because we don't have core packages external.
21:46 < mspevack> | max -- I want people to be able to check in changes, see what happens, etc. without affecting the "official" code
21:47 < f13> | |DrJef|: we havne't had to deal with the 'feature war' between multiple developers and a hot package, like the kernel.
21:47 < mspevack> | many folks -- "max, that's more of a long-term goal"
21:47 <-- | chitlesh has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
21:47 < mspevack> | "but distributed source control will give us that"
21:47 < |DrJef|> | f13, no experience of that in extras yet?
21:47 < mspevack> | distributed SCM helps with "personal branches"
21:47 < f13> | |DrJef|: there has been a few blowups
21:48 < |DrJef|> | f13, i want to make sure we balance acl's with reasonably good mulit-maintainer encouragement..so we don't see acl's cause more problems than they solve
21:48 < mspevack> | RESOLVED -- everyone needs to work 24x7
21:48 < lmacken> | :)
21:48 < mmcgrath> | mspevack: done ;-)
21:49 * | stickster_work has infarction and keels over
21:49 < mspevack> | *conversation around political pressure around changing SCM*
21:49 < mspevack> | and what is more important
21:49 < mspevack> | if we can only get *so much* RHAT buy in, what would we rather have?
21:49 < mspevack> | build system or SCM?
21:49 < mspevack> | answer seems to be build system
21:50 < mspevack> | because we can sort of subversively do our SCM work off on the side
21:50 < mspevack> | f13: care to expand?
21:50 < mspevack> | and... SCM is something that it's much easier to get FESCO help with
21:50 < mspevack> | stickster_work: up off the mat, boy!
21:50 < mspevack> | s/mat/matt
21:51 < mspevack> | er no, i got it right the first time
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21:51 < mspevack> | jesse can get dist-git up within a few days
21:52 < mspevack> | main idea -- "pepsi challenge" between our SCM options
21:52 < jwb> | pepsi challenges are rife with fanboys
21:52 * | mspevack thinks dist-pen-and-paper will lose
21:53 <@greendiseas> | dist-rock-paper-scissors
21:53 < mspevack> | in most of the conversations I listen to, Hg seems to have the most love.
21:53 * | mspevack will interrupt the IRL conversation shortly
21:53 < jwb> | yes
21:53 * | stickster_work notes that he has only a casual acquaintance with Mr. Domsch, thank you very much
21:55 < mspevack> | jesse really wants to go through the experience of setting up several different SCM repos, and see how the workflow *actually goes* with these before just "making a choice"
21:55 < mspevack> | but ultimately, it will end up being jesse's choice
21:55 < mspevack> | for the most part
21:55 < jwb> | f13, just remember that the initial pain of doing the import really isn't indicative of how it's going to be used
21:56 < f13> | thats not my decision maker
21:56 < jwb> | figured
21:56 <-- | |DrJef| has quit ("Leaving")
21:56 < f13> | my decision maker is people using the proof of concepts and running into gotchas/issues
21:56 * | nirik doesn't much care which one, as long as it works. The rest of the buildsys/infrastructure shouldn't care or should be easily changed for new SCM's
21:57 < mspevack> | people are talking about quilt now
21:57 < mspevack> | my personal opinion -- there's always a "new" version control system that everyone loves. Just find one of the current ones (like Hg) that makes lots of people happy and let's get on with it already
21:57 < f13> | talking about longer term bigger pictures of what we can do with new scms.
21:57 < jwb> | quilt isn't an SCM
21:57 * | mspevack has never heard of quilt!
21:58 < jwb> | you'd need quilt + <something>
21:58 < f13> | jwb: QUILT as a way of managing your patches for a package
21:58 * | mspevack is such a PHB
21:58 < ajax> | both git and hg have quilt integration
21:58 < f13> | jwb: quilt plugins for hg and git
21:58 < jwb> | f13, STgit for git. forget what it is for hg
21:58 < f13> | Mq
21:58 < mspevack> | blizzard -- "i want to help users kick ass right now. how do we do that without making dave jones' life hell?"
21:58 < ajax> | imagine if working with patches in spec files wasn't incredibly freakin' painful. that's more or less what quilt does.
21:59 < jwb> | quilt is yummy
21:59 < jwb> | %prep
21:59 < jwb> | quilt push -a
21:59 < jwb> | ;)
21:59 < jwb> | doh, forgot the setup part
21:59 < mspevack> | jesse -- different way of doing source control can make it much easier to track changes, and who is making them
22:00 < mspevack> | which helps jesse do his job
22:01 < mspevack> | greg -- let's just get some technical work items listed
22:01 < mspevack> | bill -- we agree that:
22:01 < mspevack> | 1) we're going to take all the packages in Core and put them in the same CVS root as Extras
22:02 < mspevack> | only question is when?
22:02 < mspevack> | - before build system is ready
22:02 < mspevack> | - after?
22:02 < mspevack> | - at the same time?
22:02 < mspevack> | question -- can the build system handle things before?
22:02 <-- | Glome [n=markus@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( )
22:02 < mspevack> | jeremy -- can't do it before the build system is ready.
22:02 < mspevack> | jesse -- we'd lose the ability to build packages!
22:03 --> | |DrJef| (spacious... he's so) [n=jefrey@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
22:03 < mspevack> | problem is -- "does package FOO have to be built with brew or plague"
22:03 < mspevack> | bill -- so what can we move RIGHT NOW?
22:03 < mspevack> | jesse -- any package with an owner who's ready to take the plunge with getting their package reviewed for Extras
22:04 < mspevack> | can we stop new additions from being made to Core, as much as possible?
22:04 < nirik> | reviewed? so all the core packages will need reviews? could take a while, given lack of reviewers...
22:04 < jbowes> | a lot of them need to be reviewed
22:04 < f13> | adsfasfd
22:04 < mspevack> | nirik: we'll come back to that shortly
22:05 < mspevack> | jesse -- need to make a decision
22:05 < nirik> | agreed, but if we want to finish before fc7, there might need to be some more reviewers. ;)
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22:05 < spot> | if i'm supplied with good food and drink, i can beat through a massive amt of reviews
22:05 < spot> | just like in the olden days. ;)
22:05 < mspevack> | can next release test composes be from both Core and Extras? If not, then we can't just let everything move over
22:05 * | nirik cheers spot on... :)
22:05 < Lovechild> | spot: I'll sponsor the coffee
22:06 < mspevack> | but in the near term, for example, if "rex wants to start reviewing kde packages to move into Extras, that's fine"
22:06 < f13> | We need to keep things internal that are needed to complete other builds.
22:06 < f13> | leaf node packages can go to Extras now.
22:06 < f13> | new packages go to Extras
22:06 < mspevack> | TO DO
22:07 < mspevack> | 1) drive creation of fedora accounts for all red hat engineering
22:08 < mspevack> | issues around "people sponsorship"
22:09 < mspevack> | RHAT engineers will now *HAVE TO* take their packages, follow guidelines, etc that they haven't necessarily had to pay any attention to before
22:09 < mspevack> | max is concerned about FESCO feeling like they still have leadership
22:11 < nirik> | so does FESCO go away now and FAB is in charge of all? or ?
22:11 < f13> | no
22:11 < mspevack> | no
22:11 < mspevack> | NONONONO
22:11 < mspevack> | concern -- "red hat engineers feel a sense of entitlement that they can do whatever they want"
22:11 < mspevack> | and making sure that doesn't happen
22:11 < f13> | We have to have clear messaging that Rh employees are not perfect.
22:11 < f13> | lets use the bind spec as an example.
22:12 < mmcgrath> | f13 :-P
22:12 < mspevack> | jeremy -- we just have to deal with the incremental pain of 2 cvs roots
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22:15 < mspevack> | phone -- who is talking? -- divide packages into groups, rather than people, when it comes to contributions
22:15 < mspevack> | luke said that
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22:16 < mspevack> | but he said it much better than i did
22:16 < mspevack> | package database needs to support multiple people associated with a package
22:17 < mdomsch_> | per distro / release
22:18 < mspevack> | *discussion around the actual mechanism of moving hundreds and hundreds of packages from core to extras*
22:19 < mspevack> | do we need to review before we move, or move and then tag them as "reviewed" or "not"
22:19 < mspevack> | second way is probably easier, even though we know a mass import is bad
22:19 < mspevack> | basically, we don't want stuff to drag out forever
22:20 < quaid> | give ppl 2 week to get their stuff fixed ebefore mass import?
22:21 < Lovechild> | quaid: maybe send out a message to Extras at the same time asking for all the help people can give us during those 2 weeks?
22:21 < mspevack> | 2 stage process
22:22 < mspevack> | 1 -- anyone who has a package that can get moved should go for it
22:22 < quaid> | Lovechild: well, yes, but I think the real help is going to be needed _after_ the two weeks when the mass import has been done but none are reviewed yet :_
22:22 < mspevack> | 2 -- later on, once build system is ready, we have a mass move and review system
22:22 < mspevack> | *some discussion about the details of that system, which don't need to be typed*
22:24 < mspevack> | bill -- there is going to be some subset of packages that are in core now, that given the choice between moving to extras or being orphaned, they'll be orphaned
22:25 * | quaid cheers that idea
22:26 < nirik> | might be nice to announce a list and see if there is anyone in the community that would like to take them over and push them into extras...
22:26 < mspevack> | *nod*
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22:31 < mspevack> | *max talks for a bit about political issues, basically "what steps can we take to make this have the best chance possible of getting RHAT buy in"
22:32 < mspevack> | greg has been taking extensive notes, that will be placed on the wiki
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22:33 < mspevack> | "move core to extras" --> Fedora Board mandate
22:33 < mspevack> | "new scm" --> SIG with *fixed lifetime*
22:34 < mspevack> | bill -- are we going to require sponsorship? things like this will run by FESCO at their next meeting
22:34 < mspevack> | jeremy, warren, rex are all on FESCO
22:34 < jwb> | mspevack, so are abadger1999 and jwb
22:35 < mspevack> | cool, i was just doing a survey of who's in the room
22:35 < mspevack> | i forgot about our phone lurkers
22:35 < mspevack> | warren -- "i think fesco will like the plan, they just need to understand it"
22:36 < mspevack> | getting some final action items down
22:36 < mspevack> | getting ready for the next break
22:36 < mspevack> | and then the next topic, which will be primary/sub arches
22:37 < mspevack> | this was a good hour for Fedora :-)
22:38 < lmacken> | ouch
22:39 < mspevack> | question -- what's the future of FESCO (probably needs a different name), and some sort of public release team, which is the "fedora core cabal" getting made public and renamed
22:39 < mspevack> | more on governance tomorrow
22:40 < mspevack> | back at 16:50/16:55 for primary-sub arches
22:40 < mspevack> | spot: does that work for you?
22:40 < spot> | ok, sure.
22:40 < spot> | i'll be back in 10.
22:40 < mspevack> | BREAK TIME ==============
22:41 * | mmcgrath has a crooked neck
22:41 < jwb> | mmcgrath, speaker phone :)
22:42 * | spot is trying to use his headset
22:42 < spot> | but whenever someone on the phone speaks, i go deaf
22:43 < f13> | gah
22:44 < mmcgrath> | Whats on the agenda after the break?
22:44 < jwb> | mmcgrath, arches
22:44 < dgilmore> | mmcgrath: sparc
22:44 < jwb> | dgilmore, more than that. anything not x86/x86_64
22:45 < dgilmore> | jwb: i know being a smart alec
22:45 * | jwb waves to corbet
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22:49 * | lmacken heads out to go take a final
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22:52 < mspevack> | ========= WE'RE BACK
22:53 < mspevack> | arches and sub-arches
22:53 < mspevack> | Bill Nottingham has the floor
22:53 --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- current topic is primary/sub arches || openID 10:00 tuesday, then governance questions, chat with tim burke/brian stevens
22:54 < mspevack> | bill is writing on the white board
22:54 < mspevack> | but i can't see it yet
22:54 < mspevack> | ok
22:54 < mspevack> | PRIMARY ARCHES -- x86, x86_64
22:54 < mspevack> | SECONDARY --
22:54 < mspevack> | for Fedora -- PPC, sparc, ia64
22:54 < mspevack> | for RHEL -- ppc64, s390x, ia64
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22:55 < mspevack> | in Fedora, we treat PPC as primary arch *right now*
22:55 < mspevack> | why we want to make PPC a secondary arch
22:55 < mspevack> | "it is effectively without a maintainer and person who prods it to make it go"
22:55 < mspevack> | "it complicates the testing matrix"
22:56 < Panzerboy> | what does it mean "a secondary arch" ?
22:56 < mspevack> | "ppc problems have always led to last minute respins, problems that have existed for a long time and no one has seen"
22:56 < mspevack> | "torrent number show a tiny PPC usage"
22:56 < mspevack> | "less than 1%"
22:56 < mspevack> | Panzerboy: that is what we are about to present a proposal about
22:56 < mspevack> | spot now has the floor
22:57 < mspevack> | spot: send to max at spevack dot org
22:57 < mspevack> | spot: i'm not on vpn
22:57 < Panzerboy> | mspevack: ok
22:57 < mspevack> | *brief lull as spot gets ready to speak*
22:57 < mspevack> | standby
22:57 < mspevack> | .....
22:58 < mspevack> | spot: tried to look at what other distros are doing from an arch perspective.....
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22:59 < mspevack> | Gentoo: Architecture Maintainers mark packages as stable for their
22:59 < mspevack> | architecture, after testing.
22:59 < mspevack> | Ubuntu: Key teams for coordinating release of architecture ports (AMD64,
22:59 < mspevack> | PPC, IA64)
22:59 < mspevack> | Slackware: Only official non x86 port is s390
22:59 < mspevack> | some cut and paste from spot
22:59 < mspevack> | =========
23:00 < mspevack> | All arches attempt to build by default.
23:00 < mspevack> | Primary architecture build failures stop the build.
23:00 < mspevack> | Second architecture build failures don't stop, but architecture teams
23:00 < mspevack> | are notified. Architecture teams are permitted to make changes to enable
23:00 < mspevack> | their architecture to build, and request new builds. They will inform
23:00 < mspevack> | the maintainer(s) of the package before doing so.
23:00 < mspevack> | Architecture Teams should be able to mark the status of their
23:00 < mspevack> | architecture (just because it built doesn't mean it works).
23:00 < mspevack> | ExcludeArch settings should be signed off by the Architecture Team.
23:00 < mspevack> | ============
23:00 < mspevack> | Architecture Maintainers head up Architecture Teams
23:01 < mspevack> | Arch Maintainer is the leader/accountable person
23:02 < mspevack> | spot is talking about all of this on the phone
23:02 < mspevack> | you guys just get to see it now
23:02 < mspevack> | so there might not be much traffic for a little while
23:02 * | mspevack goes into listen mode
23:05 < mspevack> | question 1 -- are we going to be able to have external build boxes?
23:06 < mspevack> | question 2 -- if they have to be internal, what will we do with boxes that don't belong to red hat?
23:26 < mspevack> | putting together some plans for our goals for tomorrow
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23:38 * | spot dropped off the call, thanks for giving me the time
23:39 < abadger1999> | mspevack: Am I understanding that VCS is not going to change in the FC7 release time frame? (B/c we're going to experiment with workflows that are different from the CVS one?)
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23:40 < abadger1999> | We're going to handle the merge in dist-cvs and implement the package DB. Then migrate to dist-{hg,git,bzr} at a later date?
23:40 < dgilmore> | spot: thanks for your words
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23:41 < warren> | abadger1999, not decided yet, fedora-scm SIG will be formed for further focused experimentation of VCS. FPB will mandate it soon with a limited life-time.
23:42 < abadger1999> | warren: thx for the clarity.
23:42 < warren> | abadger1999, I'm guessing the SCM SIG will be a mailing list and wiki. But the important part is a DEADLINE on the sig to disappear.
23:43 < mspevack> | GOALS FOR TONIGHT
23:43 < mspevack> | 1) pictures of white board on FedoraSummit (Jack)
23:43 < mspevack> | 2) greg's notes onto FedoraSummit
23:43 < mspevack> | 3) IRC log onto FedoraSummit (Jack)
23:43 < warren> | 4) BLOG (Everyone)
23:44 < mspevack> | 5) call setup for tomorrow (Max)
23:45 < jbowes> | thanks for doing this IRC thing, fellers. It's informative
23:45 < mspevack> | jbowes: we're glad
23:45 < mspevack> | ======== ADJOURNED FOR THE DAY ===============
23:45 <-- | warren has quit ("Leaving")
23:46 --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- openID 10:00 tuesday, then IS/IT discussion
23:47 --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- RESUME 10:00 Eastern Tuesday -- openID, then IS/IT discussion
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23:47 < glezos> | yes, thanks for the streaming. was very informative on how things are, how we work as a project etc.
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--- Day changed Di Nov 14 2006
00:01 < |DrJef|> | now that its over i'm tempted to mst3k the irclog with all the smartass comments i refrained from making
00:02 < ajax> | push the button, frank
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04:05 <@greendiseas> | ajax: ping
04:06 * | f13 tries to remember what to blog
04:06 < f13> | and of course, gregdek isn't online :/
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04:20 < dgilmore> | f13: everything
04:20 < f13> | hah
04:23 < dgilmore> | f13: buildsys stuff
04:23 < dgilmore> | f13: that i think is a really cool aspect of everything
04:25 < f13> | yeah, there was a long list of things we need, and greg wrote them down. I don't have them on me.
04:25 < f13> | I'm blogging more generic which is OK for now.
04:27 < f13> | dgilmore: where you asking me about subscribing to all Infrastructure/ pages?
04:27 < dgilmore> | f13: yeah i think i got it right
04:28 < f13> | dgilmore: yeah it's Infrastructure/.*
04:28 < f13> | ah! greg put the list in the wiki. Awesome!
04:29 < dgilmore> | hmm i think i did Infrastructure/*
04:30 < f13> | that may work. I just have /.* in my subscription list
04:30 < f13> | er Legacy/.* or infrastructure/.*
04:32 < dgilmore> | i changed to add the .
04:32 * | nirik just pulls the rss feed via liferea... handy that way.
04:47 <@greendiseas> | f13: im about to put up my pictures of stuff
04:47 < f13> | k, I just did a brain flush
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07:35 * | thl wonders if http://spevack.livejournal.com/3986.html needs a s/FAMSO/FESCo/
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12:39 < jwb_gone> | thl, he might have meant the Fedora Ambassadors project
12:40 < thl> | ohh, do they meet on thursdays these days, too; then never mind
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14:10 < f13> | thl: could go either way. Rex is supposed to bring stuff up to the FESCo
14:11 < thl> | f13, yeah, I've read that
14:11 < thl> | f13, everyone, thx for your work btw
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15:12 < jwb> | f13, around?
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15:55 < mspevack> | good morning
15:55 < smooge> | morning
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15:55 < mspevack> | we've got bill, max, greg, and rex here
15:55 < mspevack> | waiting for the others
15:56 < mmcgrath> | mornin
15:56 < jbowes> | good morning
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15:57 < thl> | good {insert local time of time}
15:57 < mspevack> | hi everyone
15:58 < thl> | s/time}/date}/
15:58 < jbowes> | thl: maybe 'hello' would be easier
15:59 < jwb> | mspevack, some questions on the arch stuff have popped up. where should we send those?
15:59 < mspevack> | f-advisory-board, i would say
15:59 < nasrat> | jwb: you mean what does it mean for MY arch ;)
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15:59 < jwb> | nasrat, yeah but that arch is the only unique one at the moment
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16:00 < jwb> | nasrat, because it's transitioning from a primary to a secondary
16:00 < thl> | jbowes, yes, maybe ;)
16:00 < nasrat> | jwb: odd that only sparc seems to be mentioned then
16:01 < jwb> | nasrat, yeah. i think the wiki pages needs to point out more clearly what exactly is going to happen to all the arches. especially rawhide...
16:01 < dwmw2_PVG> | it was suggested that one of the motivations for moving it to secondary was because it was responsible for the slips. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-October/msg00199.html and https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-October/msg00431.html don't seem to support that though
16:02 < dwmw2_PVG> | we work fairly hard to make sure it doesn't lag.
16:03 < jwb> | i'm curious as to where these secondary arch packages are hosted in general. do they become part of rawhide off of fp.org?
16:03 < jwb> | or do they live on some external machine?
16:03 < jwb> | that was discussed, but i don't see it in the wiki page
16:03 * | thl will drive home now; BBL
16:04 < mspevack> | now a few more people in the room:
16:04 < dwmw2_PVG> | Presumably it starts off like Extras -- a second class citizen which nobody really cares about. And then we realise that's not workable when we put our thinking hats on, and try to do something about it, bring it closer.
16:04 < dwmw2_PVG> | as we're sensibly doing with Extrass
16:04 < mspevack> | MaxSpevack, GregDeKoenigsberg, BillNottingham, JackAboutboul, RexDieter, WarrenTogami (who has now left to get donuts)
16:04 < mspevack> | getting closer to quorum
16:04 < mmcgrath> | yum
16:04 < mspevack> | JeremyKatz and DaveJones in the house
16:05 < mspevack> | and JesseKeating
16:05 < smooge> | doughnuts
16:05 < mspevack> | so we're likely to start in a few minutes now
16:05 < smooge> | donuts.. mmmm
16:09 < dwmw2_PVG> | I think we should deal with the arch build process as a separate issue from the set of arches -- change the process by all means but let it settle down and take stock before then changing the set of architectures
16:09 < dwmw2_PVG> | anyway, must sleep.
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16:10 < jwb> | mspevack, can i create a questions section on the wiki page that can be filled in at a later point in time (soon)? sort of like a FAQ?
16:10 < mspevack> | jwb: absolutely, please do
16:10 < jwb> | mspevack, k
16:10 < mspevack> | ok we're starting ================
16:11 < mspevack> | topic the first -- IS/IT, fedora-admin, infrastructure, etc
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16:11 < mspevack> | mmcgrath: can you call in?
16:11 < mmcgrath> | yep
16:11 < mmcgrath> | same number as yesterday?
16:11 < mspevack> | abadger1999: can you call too?
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16:11 < mspevack> | dgilmore: how about you?
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16:12 < f13> | *yawn*
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16:12 < f13> | jwb: yeah
16:13 < jwb> | f13, see the ArchPolicy wiki page in about 10 minutes. adding some questions that i've been asked frequently
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16:13 < f13> | jwb: awesome!
16:13 < f13> | did we put on there that ppc is gone?
16:13 < mspevack> | mike -- single sign on is moving along pretty well
16:13 < mspevack> | mike -- some compatability issues
16:13 < jwb> | f13, no. sparc is the only thing explicitly mentioned
16:13 < nasrat> | f13: To ensure that Fedora can be built for any architecture, in a way that doesn't slow down the development for Fedora's Primary Architectures (x86 and x86_64).
16:13 < f13> | ah
16:14 < jwb> | f13, and what "gone" means is one of the questions :)
16:14 < dgilmore> | mspevack: i can make myself available at times
16:14 < f13> | yeah, "no longer a primary arch" as in the official fedora infrastructure will not build for it nor publish it.
16:15 < nasrat> | f13: nice to communicate that to developers who have been working on it
16:15 < jwb> | f13, sure. but it's easier to answer that in my FAQ section. just give me a few minutes
16:15 < mmcgrath> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem2
16:16 < mmcgrath> | and
16:16 < mmcgrath> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem2/Schema
16:16 < nasrat> | f13: so how does that cover say updates, etc to supported. just dumping an arch from the infrastructure without forethought is sucky
16:16 < abadger1999> | mspevack: The conference system tells me the code from yesterday is invalid
16:16 < mspevack> | ok, we're going to discuss is/it priorities
16:16 < mspevack> | bill is on the white board:
16:17 < f13> | nasrat: it was decided yesterday
16:17 < mspevack> | topics
16:17 < nasrat> | f13: so when do I get a mail about it
16:17 < nasrat> | that should have been an action point
16:17 < f13> | nasrat: it is. chill out
16:18 < f13> | nasrat: part of the decision was "ok we want to drop this arch, what all do we need to address to make this happen"
16:18 < f13> | it's not "ok, it's removed from colo/builder configs. Have fun!"
16:18 < nasrat> | f13: that's not clear from the wiki, it's basically just ommited
16:18 < mspevack> | we're starting with the website, fedora.redhat.com
16:18 < mspevack> | How can we kill it>
16:18 < mspevack> | 1) get the logs and see what people are using?
16:18 < jwb> | nasrat, i'm asking those questions in the FAQ. hopefully they'll get answered soon
16:18 < jwb> | nasrat, or turned into action items
16:19 < f13> | nasrat: thanks for pointing that out, we'll fix it.
16:19 < dgilmore> | mspevack: port everything to fedoraproject.org and mirror/ loadbalance it
16:19 < dwmw2_zzz> | so we're going to stop building for _all_ the current rawhide architectures? That's a massively retrograde step for all of them, and _especially_ PPC.
16:19 < dwmw2_zzz> | and in fact for Fedora in general, without even a big-endian machine in the mix to keep developers honest :)
16:20 --> | davidz (David Zeuthen) [i=davidz@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:20 < gregdek> | ARCH DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE YET. X86 AND X86_64 ARE CLEARLY PRIMARY. OTHER DISCUSSIONS IN PROGRESS. That is all. :)
16:20 < gregdek> | That's what it says *proposal*.
16:20 < mspevack> | the question is -- what do we want for our web presence?
16:20 < dgilmore> | dwmw2_zzz: ppc and sparc will be thrown in as secondary arches and everything will be built for them. It will be driven by the people wanting those arches
16:20 < nasrat> | gregdek: well it says it's a Policy
16:20 < dwmw2_zzz> | gregdek: ok, thanks for clarification (albeit contradiction of what I thought I saw above about 'is gone'). But I really should be sleeping... :)
16:20 < blizzard> | dwmw2_zzz: go do sleep!
16:21 < mmcgrath> | https://rhn.redhat.com/rhn/help/channel-mgmt/rhn400/en/ch-custom-pkgs.jsp <-- Has fedora.rh.com links ;-)
16:21 < dwmw2_zzz> | blizzard: :)
16:21 * | dwmw2_zzz &
16:21 < jwb> | gregdek, f13, nasrat,, dwmw2_zzz: see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/ArchPolicy
16:21 < jwb> | there's an FAQ section now
16:21 < mspevack> | everything that we did yesterday, and got up on the web is proposals for f-a-b to review, and the community to discuss.
16:21 < mspevack> | it would be best to collect questions up on the wiki like jwb is doing, or on f-a-b list
16:21 < mspevack> | since we want to use this channel today to type about what is *currently* being discussed
16:22 < mspevack> | which right now is our web presence, and what we want it to be
16:22 < dgilmore> | mspevack: i see our web presence as being fedoraproject.org
16:22 * | thl is back on the keyboard now
16:22 < jbowes> | mmcgrath: where should that link go instead? I can get it fixed up
16:22 < mmcgrath> | jbowes: no idea :D
16:22 < dgilmore> | i guess we will need some redirects from anything fedora.redhat.com for awhile to find anything extrernel linking there and have it fixed
16:23 < jbowes> | mmcgrath: somewhere other than a 404, though
16:23 < mspevack> | greg -- what do we need that the wiki doesn't provide us?
16:23 < mspevack> | mmcgrath: it is our most robust site, by far
16:23 < mspevack> | mike -- the fc6 traffic would have killed the wiki completely
16:24 < dgilmore> | i think we need some static pages for rarely changing things
16:24 < dgilmore> | front page should probably be static
16:24 < mspevack> | blizzard -- is our software choice hurting scalability?
16:25 < mspevack> | *crickets*
16:25 --- | mizmo-out is now known as mizmo
16:25 < mspevack> | havoc pennington just walked in
16:25 < dgilmore> | mspevack: our software choice i dont think is hurting it but we dont have scalability right now past one box
16:25 < mspevack> | OH MY GOD, IT'S HAVOC PENNINGTON
16:25 < jbowes> | *applause*
16:25 < mspevack> | ok, we're going to have to temporarily table the website discussion and come back to it later
16:26 < mspevack> | ==========
16:26 < mspevack> | our 10:00 topic was with pete rowley, of OpenID
16:26 < mspevack> | to discuss openID, mugshot, and fedora
16:27 < mspevack> | pete rowley is here, who knows a great amount about openid
16:27 < mspevack> | and donald fischer, who works on mugshot
16:27 < mspevack> | donald -- pete was coming by today to talk to us, do some brainstorming about openID in mugshot.
16:28 < mspevack> | and we've been thinking about using openID or single sign on in fedora
16:28 < mspevack> | greg -- "goal is to lower barrier of entry to fedora. right now lots of systems, license agreement, big headache"
16:29 < mspevack> | greg -- "we're looking for various ways to simplify that and change the way contributions to fedora community work fundamentally
16:29 < mspevack> | we have an LDAP schema for this on the Fedora end
16:29 < mspevack> | ultimately, it's a possibility to allow folks working on Fedora to then also easily participate in other projects that use OpenID
16:29 < mspevack> | greg -- one compelling use case is bugzilla instances talking to each other using OpenID
16:31 < mspevack> | *donald talks about some of the potential gnome project tie-ins*
16:33 < mspevack> | donald -- openID can relieve a lot of the infrastructure issues that exist around letting the Fedora community truly collaborate with each other
16:34 --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- current topic is openID, then IS/IT discussion
16:35 < mspevack> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_id
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16:35 --> | boudiccas (boudicca) [n=boudicca@removed] has joined #fedora-summit
16:35 < blizzard> | http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/OpenID
16:35 < mspevack> | mike -- with open id integration, should we go full steam ahead with LDAP, or plan how open ID will integrate?
16:36 < mspevack&g