Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080716

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16 Jul 2008 FDSCo Meeting Minutes

stickster <meeting> 16 Jul 15:01
stickster Roll call! 16 Jul 15:01
ianweller 16 Jul 15:02
* ianweller none 16 Jul 15:02
spevack 16 Jul 15:03
* spevack is just an hour early for the fedora emea meeting :) 16 Jul 15:03
ianweller hell of a meeting, so it seems. ;)) 16 Jul 15:03
spevack 16 Jul 15:03
* spevack wants to write a document entitled "how to be snarky in 8 easy steps" 16 Jul 15:03
stickster spevack: You just did it in 1, my friend 16 Jul 15:03
jsmith 16 Jul 15:04
* jsmith sneaks in 16 Jul 15:04
* stickster gives 60 seconds for straggler 16 Jul 15:04
stickster *stragglers 16 Jul 15:04
stickster OK 16 Jul 15:05
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Release Notes 16 Jul 15:05
stickster Did people get a chance to read my recent brain dump to the list? 16 Jul 15:05
nim-nim I'll be in and out nearby if you need me 16 Jul 15:05
stickster http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00014.html 16 Jul 15:06
stickster and http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-July/msg00024.html 16 Jul 15:06
stickster Let me give you the big picture first 16 Jul 15:07
stickster Release Notes are *IMPORTANT* 16 Jul 15:07
stickster We have the best ones in the business. 16 Jul 15:07
stickster The IRC ops use them *constantly* to help people 16 Jul 15:07
stickster And they're at risk for F10 if we don't start doing work now. 16 Jul 15:08
stickster We basically need several things: 16 Jul 15:08
stickster 1. Update responsibility list for beats 16 Jul 15:09
stickster 2. Revamp build process 16 Jul 15:09
stickster Who can take the lead on flushing the beat ownership? That is, finding out if the person listed as a beat owner is still doing the job, and then updating our ownership record so we can find new people? 16 Jul 15:11
jsmith 16 Jul 15:11
* jsmith is happy to help out with build process 16 Jul 15:11
stickster jsmith: Noted, awesome! 16 Jul 15:11
stickster #1 is a simpler but just as important task 16 Jul 15:11
ianweller i don't think i can commit to very many things right now until i figure out my work load at school when it starts in a month :( 16 Jul 15:11
stickster ianweller: Understood. 16 Jul 15:11
* stickster realizes our attendance is light, and the people here right now can't do all the work. Part of this is "for the record." 16 Jul 15:12
ianweller for the record, get to work, people who aren't here. /me shakes fist 16 Jul 15:12
ianweller  ;) 16 Jul 15:12
stickster that's one way to motivate :-D 16 Jul 15:12
stickster Typically, mether ends up coming in and revamping all the release notes at the last minute because beat writers aren't there to do the work. The *concept* is strong. FWN proves it every week. 16 Jul 15:13
stickster We need to execute the same strategy well, since we started the doggone concept. 16 Jul 15:13
stickster OK, 'nuff said. jsmith, thanks for the offer of help for the build process, I'm going to take you up on it. 16 Jul 15:14
stickster jsmith: Along those lines, I need help scoping the project and editing/entering milestones and tickets in Trac that are sensible and will help us track the work. 16 Jul 15:14
jsmith OK... I'll do what I can. 16 Jul 15:15
jsmith Haven't ever done much with trac before, but I'm happy to learn 16 Jul 15:15
stickster jsmith: It's dead simple. 16 Jul 15:15
jsmith Gotcha 16 Jul 15:15
stickster jsmith: Let's take this offline and try and do a little bit either after this meeting, or agree on a scheduled time 16 Jul 15:15
jsmith OK, sounds good 16 Jul 15:15
stickster (at your convenience of course) 16 Jul 15:15
quaid oi amigos 16 Jul 15:15
stickster Anything further on Release Notes? 16 Jul 15:16
stickster quaid: ^^ "Danger Will Robinson" message proceeding. 16 Jul 15:16
stickster Oh lord. 16 Jul 15:16
stickster *preceding. 16 Jul 15:16
stickster OK 16 Jul 15:16
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Project triage 16 Jul 15:17
stickster quaid: I hand the gavel to you sir 16 Jul 15:17
quaid 16 Jul 15:17
* quaid up on the buffer now 16 Jul 15:17
quaid triage ... as in? 16 Jul 15:17
stickster Two things immediately came to mind for me: 16 Jul 15:17
stickster (1) Bugs in bugzilla, some languishing. Are the owned by people who can/will take care of them? 16 Jul 15:18
quaid ah, hmm 16 Jul 15:18
stickster (2) More generally, project progress. Compare and contrast FDP in 2003 to FDP in 2008. Are we achieving what we should as an official subproject? 16 Jul 15:19
quaid heh, yeah 16 Jul 15:19
quaid so, on the first 16 Jul 15:19
quaid we need a triage effort on just that, yeah 16 Jul 15:20
quaid 16 Jul 15:20
* quaid battling sudden ennui 16 Jul 15:20
* stickster dumps link here for reference: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Fedora+Documentation&version=&component=&query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=MODIFIED&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&fixed_in_type=allwordssubstr&fixed_in=&qa_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&qa_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&emailtype1=exact&email1=&emailtype2=exact&email2=&votes=&changedin=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= 16 Jul 15:20
buggbot (at bugzilla.redhat.com) 16 Jul 15:21
stickster oh criminy 16 Jul 15:21
stickster sorry :-D 16 Jul 15:21
stickster Thank you buggbot 16 Jul 15:21
stickster I spent about three hours or so a couple weekends back clearing out about half the bugs in my queue, which was useful 16 Jul 15:22
quaid what about making next week's meeting a working meeting to triage bugs? 16 Jul 15:23
stickster I'm down with that, anyone else available to help?" 16 Jul 15:23
jds2001 did i hear you guys need triage?? :) 16 Jul 15:23
quaid  :D 16 Jul 15:23
stickster jds2001: heh 16 Jul 15:23
stickster jds2001: We need people. 16 Jul 15:24
stickster jds2001: Hey wait... YOU'RE people!!! 16 Jul 15:24
nim-nim jds2001: and fonts :p 16 Jul 15:24
quaid jds2001: I was hesitating to ask, but take a look at that buggbot URL above to see the scope of the problem :) 16 Jul 15:24
stickster quaid: In fairness, both these topics belong on the fedora-docs-list. But I had spammed the list enough this week and didn't want to overdo it. 16 Jul 15:25
quaid yeah 16 Jul 15:25
quaid ok, here, I'll email that next week meeting is bug triage 16 Jul 15:25
quaid oh carp 16 Jul 15:25
quaid 16 Jul 15:26
* quaid realized he probably won't be available next week 16 Jul 15:26
jds2001 it's unlikely that I can make most of these - I'm stretched pretty thin with $DAYJOB right now 16 Jul 15:26
stickster jds2001: we were 1/2 kidding anyway, do not be troubled 16 Jul 15:26
quaid but the triaging concepts will help 16 Jul 15:26
jds2001 take as evidence that they had me working 1 week after being operated on :) 16 Jul 15:26
quaid in terms of what is still viable, etc. 16 Jul 15:26
quaid 16 Jul 15:27
* quaid mumbles about "they" 16 Jul 15:27
stickster quaid: Here's a directly applicable issue -- how long is our timeline for getting new contributors, via the stuff you're doing with Seneca? 16 Jul 15:27
jds2001 if you need help (and have documentation about helping with the documentation :) ), I'm sure we'd be happy to 16 Jul 15:27
quaid I don't think it meshes well with F10 early work :) 16 Jul 15:27
stickster What is the date by which we would expect to see people coming in to Docs, and how many do you think that will be? 16 Jul 15:27
quaid ok, like this -- upwards of 25 coming in to Fedora, but we can't guarantee the interest just within Docs; some may want to embed deeper in other areas with Docs as the tie-back 16 Jul 15:28
quaid that is, these are (as usual) self-assigning entities :) 16 Jul 15:28
stickster Hm. 16 Jul 15:28
quaid our tasks list is a strong part of that 16 Jul 15:28
quaid I set the goal of having tasks updated by early August 16 Jul 15:29
quaid so we have a chance to get the Seneca wiki updated with links etc. throughout August 16 Jul 15:29
quaid and Sep is when classes start 16 Jul 15:29
quaid the goal then is to get ppl involved ASAP, right within the first weeks 16 Jul 15:29
quaid so by end of Sep, fairly full involvement as a partial component of classwork 16 Jul 15:29
quaid by Jan, all involvement == classwork (that is the co-op, work experience part of the class) 16 Jul 15:30
quaid how does that mesh with other timelines? 16 Jul 15:30
stickster Alpha is August 5. Beta is end of August iirc, and right now F10 final is still pegged for 29 Oct. 16 Jul 15:30
stickster quaid: But all of those dates I just gave are not meaningful unless we know that someone(s) in that group will come in to help with our particular Docs targets. 16 Jul 15:31
stickster i.e. help with relnote beat wrangling 16 Jul 15:31
stickster with IG updates 16 Jul 15:31
quaid I can reckon that, yes, someone will 16 Jul 15:31
stickster with wiki gardening 16 Jul 15:31
quaid I'm just saying it's hard to predict exact numbers :) 16 Jul 15:32
quaid but this is partially up to us 16 Jul 15:32
stickster Sure, but even two people would be about twice as many as we've had 16 Jul 15:32
quaid if our task list is "relnotes, IG, wiki gardening" 16 Jul 15:32
quaid then guess what people will be doing? 16 Jul 15:32
stickster heh 16 Jul 15:32
stickster right on. 16 Jul 15:32
quaid yeah, so let's be careful about task scope; maybe be more granular in just those three areas? 16 Jul 15:32
stickster yes, agreed. 16 Jul 15:32
quaid and put all the other work (Sec Guide, User Guide, Admin Guide) as good for $later 16 Jul 15:33
stickster The other issue, project status is... probably a timesuck in this meeting. 16 Jul 15:34
stickster So I'm sorry I put it on there. I'll raise it on the list. 16 Jul 15:34
quaid hmm, ok 16 Jul 15:34
quaid looks like I'm not on booth duty on Wed at 1900, I'll just make sure Jack or Greg don't pull me in to some interesting discussion :) 16 Jul 15:35
quaid 16 Jul 15:35
* quaid hopes there is good wifi at OSCON :/ 16 Jul 15:35
fugolini hi 16 Jul 15:35
fugolini sorry but my internet connection didn't work 16 Jul 15:35
fugolini is there someone? 16 Jul 15:35
fugolini FAmSCo meeting 16 Jul 15:36
quaid fugolini: in 24 minutes 16 Jul 15:36
quaid Docs currently 16 Jul 15:36
fugolini ops sorry 16 Jul 15:36
quaid np 16 Jul 15:36
quaid ok, so, bugs ... OK to do a working meeting next week 16 Jul 15:36
jsmith Works for me... I won't be here :-( 16 Jul 15:37
stickster yup. 16 Jul 15:37
quaid and in the meantime, recruit heavily for beats 16 Jul 15:37
ianweller brb 16 Jul 15:37
quaid blog blog blog and so on 16 Jul 15:37
stickster quaid: Yeah, I have a blog post open for it too. 16 Jul 15:38
quaid each of us here needs to do recruiting across the board 16 Jul 15:38
stickster let's double up 16 Jul 15:38
stickster triple, even. 16 Jul 15:38
quaid and track that progress on Docs/Beats/ 16 Jul 15:38
* stickster can't find beat assignment page... later. 16 Jul 15:39
* stickster motions to move on 16 Jul 15:39
jsmith 16 Jul 15:39
* jsmith seconds the motion 16 Jul 15:39
quaid ok 16 Jul 15:40
quaid I'm about to have to disappear 16 Jul 15:40
quaid do we have anything else on the agend? or other biz? 16 Jul 15:40
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Misc notese 16 Jul 15:41
--- stickster (n=nnnnnpfr@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Docs meeting -- agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings -- Misc notes 16 Jul 15:41
stickster odfpy and python-mwlib packages. 16 Jul 15:41
stickster These give us the opportunity to turn MediaWiki into DocBook. About as effective as moin's was. 16 Jul 15:41
stickster Which is to say, not awesome, but definitely passable. 16 Jul 15:41
* stickster also notes that MW is extensible in that we can mark extra tags. 16 Jul 15:41
stickster I wonder why we don't get a Simplified DocBook XML tagset available in MW and use it. 16 Jul 15:42
stickster Then python-mwlib and odfpy could product X/HTML, ODT, and (later) PDF on demand 16 Jul 15:42
stickster If ricky, ianweller, mmcgrath were listening in, they might be interested in such a thing. 16 Jul 15:43
stickster I don't know if quaid is still here or not. 16 Jul 15:44
stickster efo 16 Jul 15:45
stickster oh crikey.... eof 16 Jul 15:45
jsmith I like the idea... just have no idea on implementation details 16 Jul 15:45
stickster jsmith: Basically, if it can be done with Python, then our Web geniuses like the folks above, and lmacken, G, and others could build an interface that would pump out the doc from the site. 16 Jul 15:46
stickster And our doc editing would basically all become editing on MediaWiki. 16 Jul 15:46
stickster However, that doesn't necessarily work for a couple guides like the Release Notes that need to be available in the build system, have really strict markup, etc. 16 Jul 15:47
stickster But it would work for the vast majority of other stuff. 16 Jul 15:47
stickster Anyway, worth a thought. 16 Jul 15:48
stickster eof 16 Jul 15:48
herlo 16 Jul 15:48
* herlo is late 16 Jul 15:48
stickster herlo: Just read the above, we figured everything out. 16 Jul 15:48
stickster Peace in the Middle East at last! Aaahh. 16 Jul 15:48
herlo if I was in MDT it would have worked actually 16 Jul 15:49
herlo stickster: w00t! about time that happened. I thought we'd never have peace again! 16 Jul 15:49
* stickster gonna close the meeting unless someone has something further. 16 Jul 15:49
stickster AOB? 16 Jul 15:49
stickster 15.. 16 Jul 15:50
stickster 10.. 16 Jul 15:50
stickster 5 16 Jul 15:50
stickster 4 16 Jul 15:50
stickster 3 16 Jul 15:50
stickster 2 16 Jul 15:50
stickster </meeting> 16 Jul 15:50

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