Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080813

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quaid <meeting> 12:04
quaid  :) 12:04
quaid no, I got lost and never made it to the agenda this morning 12:04
quaid it's essentially the same 12:04
quaid I was hoping ianweller_afk and G might be here, but I think their thuoghts are well known 12:05
quaid about wiki page naming 12:05
quaid but I think we need a compromise, I think I know what it has to be, and it is not that great but not terrible. 12:05
couf G is on IRC-break 12:05
-!- ke4qqq_ [n=ke4qqq@64.89.94.194.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #fedora-docs 12:05
quaid couf: as an action to protect his life and sanity? or just AFK? 12:06
couf the former 12:06
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quaid ok 12:07
quaid well, like I said, opinion known, etc. :) 12:07
quaid ok, so here's my agenda, any additions? 12:09
quaid 1. finish wiki page naming 12:09
quaid 2. scope package guidelines changes 12:09
couf I'm is totally out the loop, but I guess you guys made some good arguments and can make a good decision about it 12:09
quaid 3. double-check on release deadlines 12:09
quaid 4. ?? 12:10
quaid couf: 17 < quaid> overholt: can you refresh me on what came from talks with JPackage and Fedora? 12:10
quaid ... 12:10
quaid sorry, bad paste 12:10
quaid https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help_talk:Wiki_Structure 12:10
quaid couf: that's the discussion we had, worth a catch up on 12:10
quaid ok, if we have any other agenda items ... 12:11
couf quaid: thanks 12:11
ke4qqq quaid can we add Example_wiki_page to the agenda 12:11
quaid ke4qqq: thx 12:12
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* stickster gets off phone with mgr 12:15
couf we can move to -meeting if we want to 12:15
stickster yeah, what couf said ^^ 12:16
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quaid </meeting action="move_to_-meeting"> 12:18
quaid <meeting> 12:18
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs : Wiki page naming 12:18
quaid ok, figuring couf has caught up a bit 12:18
quaid I have to admit I've waffled again :) 12:18
quaid because the compromise position is different from the hardline MediaWiki one 12:19
quaid so I'm back to this: 12:19
quaid 1. Foo_Project/ and Foo_SIG/ effectively separate contributor-focused content, by subject areas, away from end-user content 12:20
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quaid 2. Help_with_Foo is the best way to do *all* end-user focused content; all such content can be moved from e.g. SELinux/FAQ to FAQ_for_SELinux 12:20
quaid 3. Then we move all meeting stuff to Meeting:, archive stuff to Archive:, all without changing any other part of the name 12:21
quaid the controversy is around 1. 12:21
quaid here are my reasons why I think that has to be the compromise: 12:21
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quaid * it's too hard to explain why a massive change of everything to people who *like* stuff organized by Nested/Folders 12:21
quaid * People will get the need to have Real_named_documents, due to search, readibility, etc. 12:22
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* jsmith realizes the time and sneaks in 12:22
quaid * We can likely convince people to accept moving names _within_ the Foo_Project/ space 12:22
* quaid pm's the status to jsmith 12:22
quaid * Since contributors like, are used to, and don't care much about changing from nesting (all guessed by me without a single poll!), why make them move? 12:23
quaid * Don't make the Foo_Project nesting a requirement either way, let people do it themselves 12:24
quaid * We give clear guidelines on how to clean up what is there and how to name in the future 12:24
quaid <eolist><eof> 12:24
quaid thoughts? 12:24
* ke4qqq respectfully disagrees 12:24
quaid yay! 12:24
quaid go ahead 12:24
ke4qqq thinks single guide to doing it is best.....do it nested or plaintext 12:25
ke4qqq plaintext is better for searching 12:25
quaid the / doesn't get in the way 12:25
ke4qqq pain is no worse for doing some renaming as it is to doing all renaming 12:25
quaid it's treated by the search tool as a space 12:25
ke4qqq does google agree with that though? 12:25
ke4qqq does google treat it as a space? 12:25
quaid how do we test that? 12:26
quaid I mean, I google for "live usb how to" and the right page turns up 12:26
quaid and it has zero spaces, it's all nested CamelCase 12:26
ke4qqq hmmm what do I know then 12:26
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jsmith Yes, I think Google does the right thing 12:26
quaid ke4qqq: you are right that ambiguity on our part is lame 12:26
quaid " 12:26
quaid Nest or not, who cares?" 12:26
quaid we should guide people to not nest 12:26
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quaid but tell them they can change it or not, it's up to them, just get the damn sub_pages renamed so they can be found 12:27
ke4qqq we just need to pick out one 12:27
quaid DocsProject 12:27
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quaid SIGs/Font was already done by nim-nim 12:27
quaid there is a lot of inertia in the nesting, unless we are prepared to do it all ourselves, we are in the position of convincing others of what is best 12:28
quaid and there is a lot of legacy 12:28
jsmith We can't force others to do the right thing... all we can do is explain correct principles in such a way that they want to do the right thing 12:29
jsmith I think it's a matter of explaining why what they're used to is a bad idea 12:29
ke4qqq so if searching isn't the reason - why not use nested? 12:29
jsmith I thought searching was the reason 12:30
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* ke4qqq is confused 12:30
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quaid ke4qqq: the nesting would all have to be single words 12:30
quaid this would work though, in terms of MW search: 12:30
quaid Foo_Project/Tool_docs/Doc_about_something 12:31
quaid it's not natural language, but it would turn up for searches on "Tool" " 12:31
quaid "something" and "foo" 12:31
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couf fwiw I'm +1 with quaid's compromise 12:33
quaid jsmith: I'm not convinced we can explain the "why" well enough to get a higher rate of compliance, if the "what" involves completely renaming every single page 12:34
quaid if the "what" is, "Do this now to make your stuff findable, do this in the future to make it good, here is the best and recommended way," then I think the why goes over better. 12:34
couf renaming every page is just overkill and loss of manpower 12:34
quaid couf: and if it's really worth it, it will happen for most pages over time anyway 12:35
couf true 12:35
jsmith quaid: I hate to even ask this out loud, but if we can't explain the "why" well enough, then why are we wasting our time? 12:38
ke4qqq has to admit that is a question I was asking myself 12:38
quaid now now 12:38
jsmith Playing devil's advocate here for a second -- don't get upset at me :-) 12:38
quaid two main reasons: 12:39
quaid * we need natural language with spaces to get search to be useful 12:39
quaid * we need natural language for sane translation 12:39
quaid sane(r) trans, anyway 12:39
jsmith OK, I'm perfectly happy with those reasons. 12:39
quaid i.e., nesting and idioms don't mix well 12:39
jsmith But you don't think we can articulate those reasons in such a way that people will want to do the right thing with regards to wiki naming? 12:40
quaid so, our "why" covers that but does not fully justify the removing of the single-level of nesting 12:40
* quaid notes search results are a bit funky with Foo_Project all grouped together, but the quality of that is a matter of taste. 12:41
ke4qqq those are satisfactory reasons but if they are good enough to remove most nesting why not all. 12:41
quaid there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a single-level of nesting 12:41
quaid it gets us a sorting of content by contributor interest area without using the more restrictive Namespace: trick in MW 12:42
quaid Namespace: moves it outside of the default search 12:42
quaid this all stems from having two audiences, IMO 12:42
quaid and it being confusing to either audience to find e.g. end-user docs in the contributor search results 12:43
* stickster is assuming all bets are off in the User: namespace 12:44
quaid yep 12:45
quaid in fact, that's something we do want to specify; use that area at will 12:46
stickster Discussion seems to have petered out. 12:48
stickster Has a decision been taken then? 12:48
-!- mclasen [n=mclasen@nat/redhat/x-281775b2292f2fd4] has left #fedora-meeting ["There must be some way out of here."] 12:48
stickster Is wiki naming put to bed now? 12:48
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* ke4qqq didn't see a decision 12:49
wonderer1 so what are so far the naming conventions? if users did not do their own user. name naming... 12:50
* couf hopes to put it to bed 12:50
* ke4qqq is fine with decision by fiat 12:51
wonderer1 for me it works fine. just want to know befor I start with orphaned pages and so on... 12:51
stickster quaid: Can you summarize the final decision on how we're going to do this? 12:51
quaid hmm 12:53
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quaid I think it's basically on Help:Wiki_Naming (a name that doesn't quite follow the directions) 12:53
quaid I can do a final write up there 12:54
wonderer1 sounds good 12:54
quaid but before I say "this is the decision" 12:54
quaid are we in fact decided? 12:54
quaid the objections that ke4qqq brings up are the same ones I hear in other places, 12:54
stickster Let's make this clear. 12:55
quaid so this is what I would like to do: 12:55
quaid * Write up a decision to vote up or down on the mailing list 12:55
quaid * invite discussion 12:55
* jsmith wonders if he haven't already had enough discussion (how many weeks has this been on the agenda?) 12:56
stickster Wait, haven't we had that before? 12:56
* ke4qqq disagrees - we've tried discussion (me once, ian once, and quaid once) and none ensued 12:56
quaid * see if we can get a good "why" page from that discussion as a reason behind the "what" in Help:Wiki_structure 12:56
quaid hmm 12:56
jsmith I say we vote here, now, and then work to get a good "why" page up 12:56
* couf needs to run, sorry folks 12:56
quaid fine 12:57
stickster couf: Please vote later by email if desired 12:57
ke4qqq jsmith: +1 12:57
couf stickster: will do 12:57
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* jsmith would rather get flamed for a quick vote than see this drag on for another month 12:57
stickster jsmith: +1 12:57
quaid +1 or -1 to: Do we permit _Project and _SIG content to remain under a single nesting? 12:58
couf +1 12:58
stickster +1 12:58
jsmith I have no problem with single nesting personally 12:58
jsmith +1 12:58
wonderer1 +1 12:58
ke4qqq +1 12:58
quaid I'm +1, fwiw 12:58
stickster yay! 12:58
quaid ok, then we have ianweller_afk outvoted anyway :) 12:58
quaid note: permit, not encourage :) 12:58
couf +1 :) 12:59
stickster +1 again. 12:59
quaid everyone watch that page 12:59
quaid https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure 12:59
* couf really runs 12:59
quaid and I'll write up the final version 12:59
quaid unless someone else feels it is clear to them and wants to do it :) 13:00
* jsmith makes a motion to propose that quaid do it 13:00
* stickster +1's jsmith and then slaps him 13:01
quaid time's up anyway 13:01
quaid I'll do it 13:01
quaid anything more, see you on #fedora-docs 13:01
quaid </meeting> 13:01

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