Meeting:Docs IRC log 20081105

From FedoraProject

Jump to: navigation, search
quaid <meeting id="Docs"> 11:02
-!- chitlesh_ is now known as ChitleshGoorah 11:02
-!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: quick roll call and roll 11:02
quaid well, three is a quorum 11:02
* stickster here 11:03
* ke4qqq is present 11:03
stickster quaid: Go for it 11:03
* quaid wool gathering 11:04
stickster haha 11:04
* stickster falling asleep. 11:04
quaid ok, a few final deadlines are iminent 11:04
quaid ref. email to f-docs-l this morning 11:04
* stickster wakes up ("Wha, huh, who, eh?") 11:04
-!- hanthana_ [n=hanthana@124.43.58.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:04
* stickster saw that email, just made some quick adjustments to the wiki on those repos' Trac instances 11:05
quaid http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-November/msg00042.html 11:05
quaid k 11:05
quaid first, am I missing anything that is due? 11:06
quaid this follows on the email to f-trans-l yesterday 11:06
quaid http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html 11:06
quaid I'm most concerned about sync on the relnotes; I think I'm going to have to go over all parts of it 11:07
quaid hoping those go quickly :) 11:07
stickster I'm very concerned about those too :-( 11:07
quaid the problem is ... 11:07
quaid ideally it's a task "anyone" can do 11:08
stickster It's just really hard thanks to the transclusions 11:08
quaid but it's a bit messed up now and I'm not sure how that can happen without having more knowledge 11:08
stickster quaid: I think I did everything from the top down to Live images already 11:09
stickster And have been visiting the pages upon getting wiki commit notices, so the watches would stay current 11:09
quaid 'did' in which sense? 11:09
* quaid is wondering if you mean carried to XML 11:10
stickster quaid: Sorry, 'did' == 'sync wiki content with relnotes content, making fixes in both where required' 11:10
quaid k 11:10
stickster s/relnotes/XML/ 11:10
-!- rahul_b [n=rbhalera@123.236.177.169] has quit ["Leaving(पुन्हा भेटू)"] 11:10
stickster In some cases I was seeing ESL contributors making corrections that weren't... well, correct 11:10
quaid right 11:11
ke4qqq hmmmm wonder if I am one of those contributors :) 11:11
stickster I tried to capture the sense of the change if there was something to be gained 11:11
quaid ok 11:11
stickster ke4qqq: No, Southerners don't count as ESL in my book :-D 11:11
quaid our procedure calls for sync'ing changes made during the XML process back to the wiki, but that didn't happen this time; and every time I face that step, I hate it. 11:12
quaid for next time, I'd like to reconsider that step :) 11:12
-!- AndreasR [n=zeus@80-218-142-182.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:12
quaid that is, once converted, the XML becomes canonical _for_that_release_, but we still accept changes to the wiki and migrate to make it easy for people. 11:12
quaid but they _must_ refer to the built from XML as canonical before they make changes 11:12
-!- sdziallas [n=sebastia@p57A2B794.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13
ke4qqq I agree except for accepting changes to the wiki 11:13
ke4qqq let them file tickets in trac 11:13
ke4qqq or edit directly in xml 11:13
* stickster tickled that ke4qqq wants to get back to the draconian thing that stickster used to advocate 11:14
ke4qqq you'll hate me when you get down to amateur radio and see all of the changes (in lots of incremental steps) 11:14
quaid past experience says that reduces the # of contributions; OTOH Trac is easier to use than BZ, which was the equivalent in the past. 11:14
ke4qqq how many people edited relnotes when you asked? 11:14
ke4qqq and even more, how many of those are you having to revert 11:14
quaid no real statistics, just gut feel atm. 11:14
stickster A small handful, four to six people maybe? 11:14
stickster Oh 11:15
stickster never mind me 11:15
stickster I thought you asked a different question than the one you *really* asked. 11:15
quaid well, I'm not tracking like that, that's all :) 11:15
stickster Well there's no two ways about it, wiki <-> XML is just frickin' painful. 11:15
ke4qqq trac worked well for IG 11:16
ke4qqq I think 11:16
stickster That hasn't changed since the dawn of time. 11:16
quaid also ... once the package is in the Preview Release, people need to file actual bug reports 11:16
stickster quaid: What about taking all the pages once we go to PR, and moving them out of Docs/Beats and into Archive: somewhere? 11:16
quaid we really don't want to confuse people about where to file bug reports, and I fear throwing Trac in there does that. 11:16
stickster That would kind of force the issue, wouldn't it? 11:16
quaid stickster: the problem there is the timing 11:16
quaid we are getting comments from the Beta, not PR 11:17
quaid PR happens so close to our freeze for trans that we really don't get much from the PR for the relnotes. 11:17
stickster quaid: Now you see why we really need to be having this conversation with the lovable poelcat 11:17
stickster  ;-) 11:17
quaid rilly? 11:17
quaid he doesn't control that part of the schedule, though 11:18
stickster "control," no... but "helps bring sanity to" 11:18
quaid and it's our choice to not put out a package for the Beta 11:18
-!- Renault [n=chatzill@AToulon-151-1-14-170.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18
quaid releng sees the PR as an actual preview, near RC 11:18
quaid where we are using it as a beta for the relnotes, in a sense 11:19
quaid so i don't see releng giving more time in the schedule between Beta and PR parts. 11:19
quaid otoh, we _could_ consider putting out a package for the Beta, etc. 11:19
stickster quaid: Or simply base it on the actual development freeze date 11:19
quaid right 11:20
stickster which is somewhere between Beta and PR, 11:20
stickster iirc 11:20
-!- Renault [n=chatzill@AToulon-151-1-111-26.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:20
quaid ok, we have some stuff to ponder here then 11:20
quaid for the next release, etc. 11:20
quaid today is just the pain :) 11:20
-!- sdziallas [n=sebastia@p57A2CAE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:21
quaid ACTION: Wed, Thu #fedora-docs focused on beat -> XML for relnotes 11:21
quaid when I'm done with my expense reports, I'll start on that, and do what I can to help anyone else who wants to help. 11:21
* stickster will do what he can too 11:22
stickster action to progress in #fedora-docs per usual, right? 11:22
* ke4qqq will volunteer to help as he can - but doesn't know about availability ATM 11:23
quaid yeah, no worries on that 11:23
quaid stickster: yep 11:23
quaid we'll drag some others in, you'll see :) 11:23
-!- nim-nim [n=nim-nim@fedora/nim-nim] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25
quaid ke4qqq, stickster btw, in case I haven't said this clearly ... I REALLY appreciate the prodding and questioning I get from folks such as you two; I'm so mentally tied up around Docs that it's hard to see the forest and the trees; but I have a deep imperative to make this clock tick. 11:25
quaid and that's enough mixed metaphors! 11:25
quaid so keep up the good work, etc. 11:25
* stickster throws in the goose, the golden egg, and a frying pan for good measure 11:25
* quaid gets that feeling in his stomach at every stupid hole in Docs he steps through all the time, and has an addictive-enabling reaction to it too often 11:25
quaid like ... "I should have solved this years ago when it was easy." 11:26
-!- ezq [n=ezq@host93.190-137-205.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["Saliendo"] 11:26
quaid ok, I think ... 11:26
quaid we can skip the task list right now, we touched upon the important stuff. 11:26
quaid also ... 11:27
* stickster has realized that prodding's OK as long as it's gentle and constructive 11:27
quaid ACTION: IG all day on #fedora-docs Thu, Fri 11:27
quaid stickster: I like to think I trained you for FPL by having to do that to me for previous years :) 11:27
stickster  :-D 11:27
quaid so I would *love* to talk about our web publishing future 11:27
stickster *pffft it was often the other way 11:27
* quaid missed who put that on the agenda, but thx 11:28
stickster quaid: web pub <-- as if *that* wasn't apropos! 11:28
* quaid steps through another hole 11:28
stickster hee hee 11:28
ke4qqq ohhh yeah aren't you supposed to have a CMS picked out :) 11:29
stickster again with the prodding :-D 11:29
stickster no no, kidding 11:29
* ke4qqq couldn't resist 11:29
stickster This is much more of a joint deal than just quaid picking something, to be sure 11:29
-!- tc141516 [i=blewis@host86-141-165-235.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:29
-!- fugolini [n=francesc@host30-196-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:30
quaid yeah 11:31
quaid but I haven't been prodding us all along on that 11:31
quaid it really was my own fault for trying to push before release 11:31
quaid otoh, we do have a few "quiet" weeks coming up 11:31
quaid and Nigel has a host we can play on 11:31
stickster quaid: Seems to me that FUDCon should be used as a "Have everything decided so we can make liftoff" date 11:32
quaid could be 11:32
quaid but I 11:32
quaid 'd rather have it be 11:32
quaid a "finish the last bits" :) 11:32
-!- sdziallas_ [n=sebastia@p57A2F585.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:32
quaid I wonder if we can pick a tool ourselves, as-is 11:32
quaid then go seek an implementor 11:32
quaid put out the word, ask for someone with skills in $X 11:32
* ke4qqq would feel better if we did that with our shortlist 11:33
quaid hmm 11:33
quaid yeah, that could work 11:33
quaid build on and improve our MediaWiki migration model 11:34
ke4qqq that way we can take into account available talent in our decision making process 11:34
* stickster notes that strategically speaking we should make sure "take into account available talent" doesn't end up meaning "stretch thin resources thinner" 11:34
stickster i.e. let's try to grow the number of people involved by reaching into the outside communities if possible 11:35
ke4qqq hmmmm wonder if that's something we can recruit for 11:35
quaid e.g. Drupal folks have responded about CMS in the past 11:36
stickster quaid: Funny, I was thinking the same thing 11:36
* ke4qqq thinks that would be cool - add a contributor from upstream. 11:36
stickster And drupal is one of the few CMS' actively tracked and carried in Fedora 11:36
ke4qqq and it would give us ven more of a in if we need upstream to add features/fix bugs 11:37
ke4qqq s/ven/even 11:37
stickster but... 11:37
stickster http://extensions.joomla.org/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,534/Itemid,35/ 11:37
ke4qqq would you really use a wysiwyg? 11:39
-!- DemonJester_away is now known as DemonJester 11:39
stickster ke4qqq: It should be extensible to do wysiwyg or $EDITOR, if not handled already 11:40
quaid http://drupal.org/project/Modules 11:41
quaid how about this ... 11:41
* quaid starts doing numbering, ready? 11:42
-!- buggbot [n=supybot@landfill.bugzilla.org] has quit [Broken pipe] 11:42
stickster quaid: Yeah, looks like they have an export function (HTML => DocBook XML, i.e.lossy) 11:42
-!- bzbot [n=supybot@landfill.bugzilla.org] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:42
quaid 1. We make a big public splash that we are hunting hard 11:42
quaid 2. Talk lots on f-docs-l for a week and pick a shortlist 11:42
quaid 3. announce that shortlist and that we are actively trying things out; put up test instances, give test drives 11:42
quaid 4. Amongst that, we mention again that we need actual talent to deliver the solution within Fedora, and invite those folks to join the discussion and help us with the decision process. 11:43
quaid 5. Ideally we get both a decision and a doer at the same time 11:43
quaid 6. Optionally we discover we aren't going to get it that easy, but we do get a shortlist or a single choice; then we can decide if we want to troll with the shortlist. 11:43
-!- sdziallas [n=sebastia@p57A2CAE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43
* quaid means 'troll' in the fishin' sense :) 11:44
-!- sdziallas_ is now known as sdziallas 11:44
* stickster down with that 11:44
* ke4qqq likes that plan 11:44
* stickster notes that he was just at Ontario LF and Joomla! was there. :-( Would have been a good opportunity to chat if not for timing 11:44
stickster ah well, email works regardless ;-) 11:44
quaid so we sort-of get what ke4qqq suggested, with enough looseness to not thin out resources, and enough talk to attract from those outside commnities. 11:44
quaid stickster: right, and we can do some reach out to people stuff; I may have met their mentor, for example. 11:45
ke4qqq joomla isn't available in fedora is it? so it'd have to get packaged? 11:45
* quaid notes that Drupal GSoC mentors included a 16 year old and a 13 year old, who otherwise was not qualified for GSoC or GHOP 11:45
quaid ke4qqq: that becomes part of the requirement; the task doer might need to become the packager. 11:46
quaid but if some of these projects might be willing to help for the increased usage, awareness, and press-splashiness of "Fedora Documentation chooses $FOO!" 11:46
stickster ke4qqq: Yes, would have to be packaged. 11:46
quaid and in that case, packaging behooves them even more. 11:46
* quaid wonders wtf Joomla isn't packaged for Fedora 11:47
stickster Not sure 11:47
stickster But it's gotta be license compliant 11:48
quaid yeah, I've seen them at places but never asked. 11:48
* stickster will check it out 11:48
quaid ok, so that's a plan, too 11:49
quaid anything else on this topic or ... ready to move on or close? 11:49
-!- jsmith [n=njsmith@72.21.36.138] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:49
stickster Oh, look who finally decides to join the party! 11:49
* jsmith is terribly late... got caught up in other meetings 11:49
-!- MEP [n=MEP@host107-164-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:49
* stickster kids, he kids 11:49
* ke4qqq would love to see alfresco in the running and manage to get packaged at the same time - but don't know that it's a fit 11:50
jsmith Yup... sorry guys. 11:50
jsmith ke4qqq: Even better... there's a plugin for Alfresco designed for Docbook 11:50
* jsmith can't remember the name... starts with a C 11:50
stickster Cabinet of Dr. Caligari? 11:50
stickster Cabernet? 11:51
* ke4qqq REALLY likes Alfresco - but again don't know that it's a fit for us 11:51
quaid ke4qqq: Alfresco themselves are supposed to be working on packaging, but I haven't heard from Lee in a while. 11:51
stickster Yeah, too quiet on that front to be hopeful just yet 11:51
jsmith Componize! 11:51
jsmith That's what it's called 11:52
stickster Voltron! 11:52
-!- nim-nim [n=nim-nim@fedora/nim-nim] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:52
stickster quaid: nothing more from here 11:53
quaid same here 11:53
quaid closing in 10 11:53
quaid 5 11:54
quaid 4 11:54
quaid 3 11:54
quaid 2 11:54
quaid 1 11:54
quaid </meeting> 11:54

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!