Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090218

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Sparks <meeting id="Docs Project"> Feb 18 14:00
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: Feb 18 14:00
Sparks Roll Call! Feb 18 14:00
* Sparks is here Feb 18 14:00
* ke4qqq is here Feb 18 14:00
kirkz Kirkz is here Feb 18 14:00
* quaid aqui tambien Feb 18 14:00
* jjmcd too Feb 18 14:00
Sparks Okay, welcome back to the party we call the Docs Project. Feb 18 14:01
* stickster here, sort of Feb 18 14:01
kirkz Yeah!!!!!! Feb 18 14:01
Sparks And the first item up for bid is... Feb 18 14:02
* laubersm is here Feb 18 14:02
Sparks Feb 18 14:02
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Meeting time change Feb 18 14:02
Sparks So only seven people have completed the requisite homework. Feb 18 14:02
jjmcd So does that mean the attendance will be <= 7 ? Feb 18 14:03
Sparks And right now Thursday at 00:01 UTC is winning. Feb 18 14:03
* laubersm thinks someone should have marked out the spots already taken in meeting channel Feb 18 14:03
Sparks laubersm: We have LOTS of meeting spaces Feb 18 14:03
laubersm sparks: thats wed night ET - right? Feb 18 14:03
ke4qqq laubersm: ohhh good idea Feb 18 14:03
Sparks laubersm: That would be 7PM Wednesday nights Feb 18 14:03
Sparks eastern time Feb 18 14:03
ke4qqq Sparks: but in -meeting gives a lot of visibility to what we are doing Feb 18 14:04
* laubersm is still having to think too hard about UTC Feb 18 14:04
* mdomsch ( has joined #fedora-meeting Feb 18 14:04
Sparks ke4qqq: Yeah and while I agree... we still need to think about good timing for us without having to cram every other group into our schedule, IMO. Feb 18 14:04
jjmcd laubersm: Becom a ham or move to England Feb 18 14:04
laubersm  :) Feb 18 14:05
Sparks ke4qqq: If we start using meeting-1 then more people will be ther Feb 18 14:05
ke4qqq true Feb 18 14:05
Sparks I wonder how many people even KNOW there is a meeting-1 (I'm guessing 9) Feb 18 14:05
* laubersm does but .... Feb 18 14:06
kirkz I don't know what meeting-1 is Feb 18 14:06
Sparks kirkz: Have we assigned you a... mentor? Feb 18 14:06
kirkz not yet Feb 18 14:07
kirkz .been working with danielsmw Feb 18 14:07
Sparks kirkz: Okay, lets talk after the meeting... Feb 18 14:07
kirkz ok Feb 18 14:07
Sparks So I guess my question is... who CANNOT meet Thursday at 00:01 UTC? Feb 18 14:07
kirkz I Feb 18 14:08
kirkz I'll probably be late, my daughter has piano Feb 18 14:08
Sparks If we use that spot then we'll fall in between EPEL and LATAM. Feb 18 14:09
jjmcd I notice ryanlerch is lacking from the list ... did anyone speak with him? Feb 18 14:09
* Sparks notes that there are people here today that didn't say they were available now. Feb 18 14:10
Sparks jjmcd: I don't know that I've discussed it with him directly but there have been emails to the list and such. Feb 18 14:10
Sparks jjmcd: I'll make a point of doing so. Feb 18 14:11
jjmcd This is a slightly troublesome time for me but obviously not insurmountable Feb 18 14:11
* moixs has quit (Remote closed the connection) Feb 18 14:11
Sparks Okay, so we don't get bogged down on this I'll beg for another week and then we will make the change next week. Feb 18 14:11
Sparks So when you see the message hit the list hit reply to all and let's discuss it. Feb 18 14:12
laubersm you might want to point out in the email the top options.... Feb 18 14:12
Sparks laubersm: +1 Feb 18 14:12
laubersm more likely to get protests than confirmations Feb 18 14:12
jjmcd good point Feb 18 14:12
Sparks Anything else? Feb 18 14:13
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - DocsProject wiki page changes Feb 18 14:13
Sparks So I asked ianweller about this last night and apparently there hasn't been any (or much) progress on getting wikibot out of the garage. Feb 18 14:13
Sparks quaid had a good point that we should probably just start over on the Docs Project pages which I'm not against. It is just more work but work we can do right the first time. Feb 18 14:14
jjmcd What is the issue with the wikibot? Feb 18 14:15
Sparks Not sure if it is a problem with only one person having the keys or if it is broken. Feb 18 14:15
laubersm I think it a little of both but ian thinks he can fix the broken if he can get the code Feb 18 14:16
laubersm at least that is what I last understood Feb 18 14:16
* stickster was an early proponent of starting over, also, with the idea being to create process docs that are as slim and readable as possible Feb 18 14:16
Sparks I'm personally leaning towards the "reinvent the wheel" at this point because a lot of the pages we have aren't useful and there needs to be a design change. Feb 18 14:16
* itbegins ( has joined #fedora-meeting Feb 18 14:16
Sparks Yeah, what stickster said Feb 18 14:16
laubersm +1 Feb 18 14:17
itbegins Evening all, sorry I'm late Feb 18 14:17
ke4qqq starting over makes a lot of sense - the people who know what is junk and what isn't in existing docs prolly don't have time to filter it. Feb 18 14:17
laubersm Also, more groups are begining to rename and add categories and we need to be an example not left behind Feb 18 14:17
jjmcd Someone on the mailing list mentioned doing a process diagram. Perhaps a current and desired diagram would be a good starting point Feb 18 14:17
* jjmcd takes off his MBB hat Feb 18 14:18
laubersm what is the status of the psv files that quaid started? Feb 18 14:18
laubersm can they be used as a guideline of what to archive at least? Feb 18 14:19
Sparks laubersm: I think it still exists. Feb 18 14:19
quaid yes, they can Feb 18 14:19
Sparks I think that file needs to be wikized so we can see it. Feb 18 14:19
ke4qqq laubersm: you and I have worked on it - I haven't seen any other commits hit the commit list Feb 18 14:19
ke4qqq Sparks: what's wrong with git clone? Feb 18 14:19
laubersm they are all here Feb 18 14:19
laubersm;a=tree Feb 18 14:19
* jsmith (n=nnnjsmit@asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith) has joined #fedora-meeting Feb 18 14:20
quaid -1 on wikifying, it's an easy file to work with Feb 18 14:20
Sparks ke4qqq: too much overhead for a group to look at and make changes Feb 18 14:20
laubersm I don't know that there are that many changes to make in the docs or docsproject ones... Feb 18 14:20
Sparks Good grief, you guys are going to make me work today Feb 18 14:20
ke4qqq if it's too much overhead for this group I'd be worried - we're talking hundreds of lines of text each - unwieldy at best. Feb 18 14:21
ke4qqq  :) Feb 18 14:21
laubersm and quiad added category suggestions too Feb 18 14:21
ke4qqq sorry - was it supposed to be bonbon day today? Feb 18 14:21
stickster mmm bonbons Feb 18 14:22
Sparks Good grief... I'm ready to shred what we have in the wiki and start over from dirt after looking at that list Feb 18 14:22
* danielsmw_ipod ( has joined #fedora-meeting Feb 18 14:22
* danielsmw_ipod is now known as danielsmw Feb 18 14:22
laubersm looks like docsproject is all the ugly stuff - docs is beats and drafts and hasn't had any work done Feb 18 14:22
ke4qqq Sparks: another reason not to wikify, it'll further ruin search. Feb 18 14:23
* alexxed has quit ("Leaving.") Feb 18 14:24
Sparks Okay so what do we want to do? I guess we can tell wikibot to throw stuff in the archive: but we still are going to have to go through each page and clean it up Feb 18 14:24
Sparks Okay, not everyone at once. Feb 18 14:25
Sparks Who's available this weekend to work on wiki stuff? Feb 18 14:26
danielsmw I am! Feb 18 14:26
* jsmith can't, unfortunately Feb 18 14:26
laubersm If we archive, rename the rest and add the categories it will be easier to go through what is left and clean up Feb 18 14:26
kirkz I can help if I'd be useful Feb 18 14:26
laubersm I vote for using the psv as a guide and manually getting it done this weekend Feb 18 14:26
laubersm waiting on wikibot is driving me nuts Feb 18 14:27
quaid yes, adding categories is key Feb 18 14:27
Sparks Okay, let's get a party together starting Friday night and knock this stuff out. Feb 18 14:27
jjmcd Do we have some confidence that the first column is comprehensive? Feb 18 14:27
Sparks and when was that column generated? Feb 18 14:27
quaid make sure all understand the naming guidelines :) Feb 18 14:27
ke4qqq laubersm: even better: get the .psvs ready and then dole out sections of it - spread the love - that's accesibly to everyone Feb 18 14:27
quaid e.g. "Titles like this", don't make all initial caps, etc. Feb 18 14:28
laubersm ke4qqq : are you volunteering? Feb 18 14:28
Sparks who wants to volunteer to head up this project or do we want to nominate ianweller? Feb 18 14:28
* ke4qqq nominates ianweller Feb 18 14:28
ke4qqq laubersm: I'll be happy to help Feb 18 14:28
* laubersm thinks quaid should finish what he started Feb 18 14:28
quaid oh, what's that? Feb 18 14:29
* laubersm should have time to help this week Feb 18 14:29
jjmcd Can't the renaming be done in SQL? Feb 18 14:29
laubersm quaid: aren't you the one that put most of the suggestions into the psv file? Feb 18 14:29
laubersm docsproject.psv history blaims you Feb 18 14:30
laubersm blame Feb 18 14:30
Sparks okay Feb 18 14:31
Sparks I'll get with ianweller tonight and let's get this moving on Friday Feb 18 14:31
* jsmith is now known as jsmith-away Feb 18 14:31
Sparks Anything else? Feb 18 14:31
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - CMS Update Feb 18 14:32
Sparks ke4qqq: Where are we now? Feb 18 14:32
* SmootherFrOgZ ( has joined #fedora-meeting Feb 18 14:32
ke4qqq well - honestly not much additional progress since last week Feb 18 14:32
* ke4qqq has been busy with $dayjob Feb 18 14:32
ke4qqq but Feb 18 14:32
ke4qqq jds2001, herlo and spot will be around to help get this pushed in this weekend. Feb 18 14:33
ke4qqq and at least two of the above know that I plan on getting the modules and core completely packaged this weekend Feb 18 14:33
Sparks excellent Feb 18 14:33
* Sparks understands about $DAYJOB Feb 18 14:33
jjmcd work is the curse of the drinking class Feb 18 14:34
Sparks Does anyone have any questions about the CMS? Feb 18 14:34
quaid laubersm: yeah, I take the blame for docsproject.psv Feb 18 14:35
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Status on Release Notes Feb 18 14:35
Sparks jjmcd: How's it going? Feb 18 14:36
jjmcd some headway. Got a beat writer for haskell, ryan and i discussed some Feb 18 14:36
jjmcd changes to the organization which Ryan incorporated into the DocBook Feb 18 14:36
* quaid off the phone, sry Feb 18 14:36
jjmcd I am about 60% through writing a recruiting post Feb 18 14:37
Sparks Okay. Do you need anything from me? Are the release notes on schedule? Feb 18 14:37
jjmcd In fact, will shortly be looking for a proofreader or two Feb 18 14:37
jjmcd At this point I see no issue Feb 18 14:37
Sparks Okay Feb 18 14:37
Sparks Anyone have any questions? Feb 18 14:38
* mcepl ( has joined #fedora-meeting Feb 18 14:38
quaid um Feb 18 14:38
quaid there was the one thing on list about process Feb 18 14:38
* Sparks hasn't had an opportunity to catch up on the list discussions Feb 18 14:40
quaid ok Feb 18 14:40
quaid the deal is, the process is unclear about how people are supposed to note things once Alpha is out Feb 18 14:40
quaid update the Alpha? Feb 18 14:40
quaid does that automagically fill the Beta? Feb 18 14:40
quaid write in to beats? Feb 18 14:40
quaid add it to common bugs? Feb 18 14:40
quaid etc. Feb 18 14:40
quaid so it seemed like a good time to fix those process notes and send the QA communities the word on what to do. Feb 18 14:41
quaid writing a new process page is an option, based on the above renaming plans Feb 18 14:41
quaid is that something ryanlerch and jjmcd can collaborate on soonish? Feb 18 14:41
quaid eof Feb 18 14:41
* mcepl ( has left #fedora-meeting Feb 18 14:42
jjmcd Making notes in the beats talk would give the writers a heads up and wouldn't make the developers feel like they have to wordcreft Feb 18 14:42
Sparks Yeah, I think we should be looking at documenting the current process and then look at any way to improve that process. Feb 18 14:42
* warren (n=warren@redhat/wombat/warren) has joined #fedora-meeting Feb 18 14:42
jjmcd wordcraft Feb 18 14:42
quaid I liked the other spelling, tho' Feb 18 14:43
* jjmcd will try to sync with RL Feb 18 14:43
quaid I know there are holes in y'all's understanding of the way things have been done, but a good first exercise Feb 18 14:44
quaid might be to just try to do it all from what you know, then let the old fogies make suggestions Feb 18 14:44
jjmcd Yeah, might not be a bad plan ... will need lots of pictures tho ... /me thinks better in pictures <g> Feb 18 14:45
* Sparks wonders if we have a wiki page that identifies old fogies Feb 18 14:45
jjmcd Plus the whole Six Sigma thing about making things visual/transparent Feb 18 14:45
jjmcd Prolly not too hard to recognize the gray haired types Feb 18 14:46
laubersm Sparks: this one does: Feb 18 14:46
quaid laubersm: nice! Feb 18 14:47
ke4qqq heh Feb 18 14:47
quaid Sparks: OT, but +1 to s/FDSCo/Docs Team/g Feb 18 14:47
Sparks quaid: Yeah, that's a definite need Feb 18 14:47
Sparks Okay. Feb 18 14:47
Sparks I wanted to talk with the release notes folks last weekend and unfortunately that didn't happen. Let's make that happen this week so we can exchange ideas in a less async environment. Feb 18 14:48
Sparks Anything else on this? Feb 18 14:48
* quaid done Feb 18 14:49
Sparks danielsmw: Did you want to talk about your guide? Feb 18 14:49
* Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Status on User Guide Feb 18 14:49
danielsmw yeah Feb 18 14:49
danielsmw just a bit Feb 18 14:49
Sparks go for it Feb 18 14:50
danielsmw I think I said most of what I wanted to say in that email, but in case anyone didn't see it: Feb 18 14:50
Sparks you'll wrap us up for the day Feb 18 14:50
* quaid +1 overall for danielsmw's on-list proposal of priorities Feb 18 14:50
danielsmw 1) Priorities for FAD Feb 18 14:50
danielsmw I think that there isn't a huge stress on content priority, but I suggest that we work on pages like accessing the internet and installing software before the others Feb 18 14:50
danielsmw since these are more fundamental Feb 18 14:51
danielsmw quaid: thanks Feb 18 14:51
danielsmw 2) Organizing for maintainability Feb 18 14:51
danielsmw I'd like to examine what tasks can be generalized without losing ease of understanding for a new user Feb 18 14:51
danielsmw and then generalize these tasks, making it more maintainable and giving us time to polish other things/add content Feb 18 14:52
danielsmw like... (this wasn't on the list) Feb 18 14:52
danielsmw 3) Advanced Sections Feb 18 14:52
quaid danielsmw: only thing I wanted to discuss was how we wanted to handle F9 and F10 content on the wiki concurrently Feb 18 14:52
danielsmw I think that while the user guide can be a newbie-friendly thing for the docs team, it doesn't need to leave out slightly more advanced users Feb 18 14:52
quaid but 2) reminds me we want to discuss a common 'sudo' doc again v. su -c everywhere Feb 18 14:53
danielsmw There are plenty of things that can be written for the more advanced user - setting up irssi, for example - Feb 18 14:53
danielsmw That we can put in there. We just need to denote that it's for advanced users Feb 18 14:53
danielsmw quaid: go ahead, if you want to discuss that Feb 18 14:53
danielsmw I'm done, I think Feb 18 14:54
laubersm where should I be updating with F10 info? Feb 18 14:54
* laubersm may have missed that Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw Oh, right Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw I suppose Feb 18 14:54
laubersm or putting new F10 pages? Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw That's a worthy thing to address Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw For the little F10 editing that's been done, we've done it in our userspace Feb 18 14:54
danielsmw but we need a better place very soon Feb 18 14:54
quaid I'd rather settle that now, fwiw :) Feb 18 14:55
laubersm wiki or XML (git)? Feb 18 14:55
danielsmw Agreed Feb 18 14:55
quaid we could do what we did for F8 with the F9 content Feb 18 14:55
quaid but then we want to move it to Archive: when it's converted or we risk confusing ppl Feb 18 14:55
danielsmw Well, what if we just set aside the mediawiki source Feb 18 14:55
danielsmw for conversion to xml Feb 18 14:55
danielsmw at a later date? Feb 18 14:55
quaid ah, then finish F9 via XML? Feb 18 14:55
quaid we could do the raw conversion in a few minutes Feb 18 14:55
quaid and check it in to git for fixing later. Feb 18 14:56
danielsmw Right. I mean, the only stuff left is KDE Feb 18 14:56
quaid call it branched-to-XML at that point. Feb 18 14:56
danielsmw (i still need to go to fedora-kde) Feb 18 14:56
quaid hmm, yeah, and that could be written anywhere and exported later, it's true Feb 18 14:56
* quaid ponders ... that would save needless renaming, etc. Feb 18 14:56
* danielsmw concurs Feb 18 14:56
quaid danielsmw: m'man, I like that! Feb 18 14:56
Sparks THREE MINUTE WARNING Feb 18 14:57
quaid then if I get more time I can also help with the XML conversion as it sits in git Feb 18 14:57
* jjmcd notes that Sparks checked WWV Feb 18 14:57
danielsmw quaid: that'd be great, because I need to learn that Feb 18 14:57
quaid that will move F9 UG significantly, and give us room to move on F10 Feb 18 14:57
danielsmw yup yup. Feb 18 14:57
danielsmw Sounds like a plan then. Feb 18 14:57
quaid danielsmw: cool, nothing like watching and doing in real time to learn; you'll see from the git commits what I change, etc. Feb 18 14:57
quaid right o Feb 18 14:57
Sparks jjmcd: Every new raday Feb 18 14:57
danielsmw any comments on the aforementioned advanced sections before I let sparks take away the meeting? Feb 18 14:58
danielsmw It's something I thought of when kirkz started doing the clawsmail stuff Feb 18 14:58
laubersm I have no problems with some more advanced content - but lets get the current topics moving first? Feb 18 14:59
danielsmw oh, agreed., Feb 18 14:59
danielsmw that would all be secondary. Feb 18 14:59
danielsmw okay, well, that's all from me. Feb 18 14:59
laubersm great - add them to a list and I'll help a little bit Feb 18 14:59
Sparks Anything else??? Feb 18 14:59
quaid </> Feb 18 14:59
* danielsmw thinks Sparks is pretty violent with his capitalization and punctuation Feb 18 14:59
Sparks 5 Feb 18 14:59
Sparks 4 Feb 18 14:59
Sparks 3 Feb 18 14:59
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Sparks 2 Feb 18 14:59
Sparks 1 Feb 18 14:59
Sparks Thanks everyone for coming! Feb 18 15:00
Sparks </meeting> Feb 18 15:00