Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090326

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Sparks Roll Call! Mar 25 20:00
*Sparks has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings Mar 25 20:00
*Sparks is here Mar 25 20:00
*jjmcd yo Mar 25 20:00
*n9986_ (n=nandeep@59.176.80.223) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:00
Sparks Where is everyone? Mar 25 20:02
*glezos is here Mar 25 20:02
glezos afk, but pingable Mar 25 20:03
*laubersm is here Mar 25 20:03
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 25 20:07:20 2009
*Now talking on #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:07
*Topic for #fedora-meeting is: Welcome to the Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings Mar 25 20:07
*Topic for #fedora-meeting set by Sparks at Wed Mar 25 19:59:50 2009 Mar 25 20:07
ke4qqq which one?? I only see beta release notes Mar 25 20:07
ke4qqq and f10 admin something Mar 25 20:07
Sparks Sorry about that, my computer went stupid. Mar 25 20:07
Sparks Let's start over again...  :) Mar 25 20:08
Sparks Roll call! Mar 25 20:08
*Sparks is here (I think) Mar 25 20:08
*ke4qqq is here Mar 25 20:08
*jjmcd qrv Mar 25 20:09
*laubersm is here Mar 25 20:09
*stickster_afk is now known as stickster Mar 25 20:09
*Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement Mar 25 20:09
*ianweller rolls in Mar 25 20:10
Sparks Okay, there was a fairly good discussion on f-docs-l about how to author the Beta Announcement... Mar 25 20:10
Sparks and what should be in it... Mar 25 20:10
Sparks and how much detail to put into it... Mar 25 20:10
*mdomsch (n=mdomsch@cpe-70-124-62-55.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:10
Sparks and who are target audience is. Mar 25 20:10
*ryanlerch (n=rlerch@nat/redhat/x-9e2fb1f14674b40d) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 25 20:10
Sparks Let's see if we can get those questions answered. Mar 25 20:11
*stickster shows up late -- sorry Mar 25 20:11
Sparks Does anyone have any concerns about how the Beta Announcement looks right now in Gobby (or on the wiki)? Mar 25 20:11
Sparks https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F11_Beta_Announcement Mar 25 20:12
jjmcd last week we talked about three groups of no more than five bullets I see we have added some, I don't have a problem with that but are we all agreeing that more bullets is ok? Mar 25 20:12
laubersm I like it - though with the way the other discussions are going I wonder about making the link to the Beta Release Notes more prominent Mar 25 20:12
*ianweller takes a peek Mar 25 20:12
stickster The audience for the announcement falls into a couple groups Mar 25 20:13
stickster 1. community members and users, i.e. most likely testers Mar 25 20:13
stickster 2. journalists and web aggies Mar 25 20:13
*Sparks notes stickster has made a change in Gobby... Mar 25 20:13
*stickster changed the kimono thing, which always sounded silly-naughty as opposed to the more neutral car talk version Mar 25 20:14
jjmcd Kinda borrowed that from Icom's IC7800 announcement Mar 25 20:14
Sparks jjmcd: I don't like being held to an arbitrary standard (three groups of five bullets). Mar 25 20:14
Sparks jjmcd: If we have more to say or less to say then we should just say what we need to say. Mar 25 20:15
ke4qqq the gcc line doesn't make sense to me. Mar 25 20:15
jjmcd Yeah, well, that wasn't my recommendation, but I didn't want others to think it was too gangly Mar 25 20:15
Sparks ke4qqq: good catch Mar 25 20:15
ke4qqq there is at least a period missing Mar 25 20:16
jjmcd Well, that needs more prominence. C++ code is affected by the change Mar 25 20:16
jjmcd Some existing code will break Mar 25 20:16
stickster I just sent a bunch of stuff to the wrong channel... I'm such a dweeb. Mar 25 20:17
*stickster transcribes Mar 25 20:17
stickster One other thing that I am still on the fence about is the call-out of the Linux Format cover blurb. Mar 25 20:17
stickster The whole blurb, for those who haven't seen it, was "Fedora 10 kicks Ubuntu's ass." Mar 25 20:17
stickster Whether or not you tend to agree, I think calling that particular blurb out is skirting a troubled line. Mar 25 20:17
stickster We don't need to make someone else look worse for us to look good, I think. Mar 25 20:17
jjmcd We took out Ubuntu Mar 25 20:17
ke4qqq so utilizes doesn't carry the notion that it's been upgraded. Mar 25 20:17
jjmcd replaced it with ... Mar 25 20:17
ke4qqq stickster: +1 we don't care about Ubuntu Mar 25 20:18
stickster jjmcd: I realize that, but it's not going to be hard for people to trace the quote and then take that as us having a chip on our shoulder. Mar 25 20:18
ke4qqq and certainly don't want to call attentiont to them in our own release announcement. Mar 25 20:18
jjmcd Ahhh, yeah, prolly right. Mar 25 20:18
stickster From a marketing perspective, that's a total party foul. Mar 25 20:18
jjmcd would anyone bother? Mar 25 20:19
quaid yep Mar 25 20:19
*stickster doesn't want to test those waters. Mar 25 20:19
ianweller should we be using https for wiki urls? Mar 25 20:19
jjmcd Yeah, I see that Mar 25 20:19
quaid ianweller: I thought not? Mar 25 20:19
jjmcd ianweller I thought I caught those Mar 25 20:19
quaid or you mean to get the 'latest' without caching Mar 25 20:19
ianweller well it bothers people who are logged in but i guess if we're caching, then don't Mar 25 20:20
stickster Do people without a login get an annoying credentials input box if they use https://? Mar 25 20:20
ke4qqq no Mar 25 20:20
jjmcd No, I don't thnk so Mar 25 20:20
ke4qqq they just have to do the entire session thing Mar 25 20:20
ke4qqq with ssl Mar 25 20:20
Sparks and that's bad? Mar 25 20:20
ke4qqq which is more expensive for our infrastructure Mar 25 20:20
stickster Oh, that's no fun then. Mar 25 20:20
ke4qqq computationally Mar 25 20:20
quaid and we don't get the ncaching benefit Mar 25 20:20
ke4qqq right Mar 25 20:20
stickster Yeah, use http:// unless it's going to an audience you know is entirely (or almost entirely) credentialed Mar 25 20:21
ke4qqq that too Mar 25 20:21
Sparks +1 Mar 25 20:21
stickster One other issue that was raised by someone in Marketing -- apparently "Is a better OS than Fedora 10 even possible?" comes off as a very offensive statement in at least one other language Mar 25 20:22
ke4qqq I just pulled the kicks ass sentence out. flame me if you wish Mar 25 20:22
quaid stickster: huh, really? Mar 25 20:22
Sparks stickster: Really? I wonder what it translates to. Mar 25 20:22
ke4qqq stickster: I gotta admit if we aren't transliterating what is the evil inference? Mar 25 20:23
ke4qqq s/admit/ask Mar 25 20:23
stickster I think it's an idiomatic or cultural thing, as opposed to "when you translate this, it says 'I would like to date your teenage daughter.'" Mar 25 20:23
stickster What if we restated that in some way? Mar 25 20:23
ke4qqq How about - While a better OS is hard to imagine - Fp.o has made the beta of Fedora 11 for you to realize how good it is now Mar 25 20:24
Sparks Can you get any better than Fedora 10? Mar 25 20:24
stickster Like, "Users, sysadmins, and press agree -- Fedora 10 outdid itself in terms of <blah, blah, blah>" Mar 25 20:24
ke4qqq or something along those lines Mar 25 20:24
stickster Sparks: We'd better hope so Mar 25 20:24
stickster Oh, that was a suggestion, oops :-D Mar 25 20:24
Sparks stickster: Gees Mar 25 20:24
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Sparks Ummm... Do we even have "JUICY QUOTE 1"? Mar 25 20:25
ke4qqq Sparks: we at least have Fedora 10 kicks ubuntus ass Mar 25 20:25
quaid +1 to reference the agreed sources that Fedora 10 rox'd Mar 25 20:25
stickster Sparks: Shouldn't be hard to find Mar 25 20:26
stickster We got great press coverage. Mar 25 20:26
stickster ke4qqq: :-D Mar 25 20:26
Sparks  :) Mar 25 20:26
laubersm arg - give him a minute - he'll find one. :) Mar 25 20:26
Sparks laubersm: nice type on top of the page... :) Mar 25 20:26
laubersm did I get it all back out correctly? Mar 25 20:27
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*laubersm has too many things and windows going on Mar 25 20:27
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stickster I'm looking up some press now, sorry, FF is slow Mar 25 20:27
Sparks laubersm: yeah... Mar 25 20:27
stickster by which I mean "Not instantaneously mind melding." Mar 25 20:27
ke4qqq cause of course you are using minefield in rawhide :) Mar 25 20:28
Sparks Is the bugzilla link supposed to be https://? Mar 25 20:28
ianweller Sparks: yes Mar 25 20:28
Sparks ianweller: TU Mar 25 20:28
ianweller it doesn't accept http:// connections and redirects to https anyway Mar 25 20:28
ke4qqq yeah http redirects to https Mar 25 20:28
Sparks laubersm: Don't like contractions? Mar 25 20:29
quaid nope Mar 25 20:29
laubersm nope Mar 25 20:29
Sparks sound clunky to my southern ear Mar 25 20:29
ke4qqq mine too Mar 25 20:29
laubersm they also do not always translate well - even if most translators know how to deal with them Mar 25 20:29
ke4qqq true Mar 25 20:30
quaid http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Style_Guide_-_General_Guidelines#Contractions Mar 25 20:30
laubersm that too Mar 25 20:30
Sparks quaid: Oh we can change that... it's in the wiki... Mar 25 20:30
ke4qqq P in project is capitalized right? Mar 25 20:30
quaid yes Mar 25 20:31
quaid the formal project name Mar 25 20:31
ke4qqq just making sure I wasn't crazy Mar 25 20:31
quaid for those curious about various comments here Mar 25 20:31
quaid we are writing together via gobby Mar 25 20:31
Sparks ke4qqq: That top part is commented out. Should we use some of that or just open up the document with "The wait is over." Mar 25 20:32
Sparks  ?\ Mar 25 20:32
ke4qqq why is Gnome 2.26 and kde 4.2 not on their own line Mar 25 20:32
quaid ke4qqq: contraction :) Mar 25 20:32
Sparks ke4qqq: Because we were trying to conform Mar 25 20:32
laubersm ke4qqq, we condensed to a single bullet of updated desktops... Mar 25 20:32
ke4qqq combining them makes it seem like an insignificant update Mar 25 20:32
quaid G then K is alpha Mar 25 20:32
Sparks Personally, I think they are big ticket items and could be separated if we have enough "stuff" to put behind them Mar 25 20:32
quaid isn't 4.2 in F10 Mar 25 20:33
quaid  ? Mar 25 20:33
ke4qqq yes, but is debuting in F11 Mar 25 20:33
ke4qqq iirc Mar 25 20:33
jjmcd I think it was in the talking points Mar 25 20:34
quaid honey, she can't re-debut Mar 25 20:34
quaid  :) Mar 25 20:34
ke4qqq sure - just like xfs support :) Mar 25 20:34
laubersm Sparks, How much "stuff" do you want in the *announce* page? Mar 25 20:34
laubersm that is the question that keeps comin round Mar 25 20:34
Sparks Just enough to reel them in. Mar 25 20:35
jjmcd Exactly - I would argue the gnome and kde updates ARE minor Mar 25 20:35
Sparks You don't want to say you have a car for sale Mar 25 20:35
Sparks You want to say you have a fast, red car for sale Mar 25 20:35
jjmcd Hey - you ain't selling my car! Mar 25 20:35
Sparks jjmcd: too late Mar 25 20:35
ke4qqq so since press is one of our target demographics - I think a column listing 'importnant' stuff is important, if they have to read the details it may not get covered. Mar 25 20:36
quaid can't we link them to longer info? Mar 25 20:36
jjmcd We do Mar 25 20:36
jjmcd We link to the beta rn's and also to the beats Mar 25 20:36
quaid then lots of shortness is better than fewer longer bits Mar 25 20:36
laubersm anyone who is looking for it will find it with a single bullet saying that all the desktops have been updated to the latest version and Mar 25 20:36
Sparks Yeah to the release notes Mar 25 20:36
laubersm those that don't know they need it won't care that it is not separate bullets Mar 25 20:36
Sparks Then you have a grocery list Mar 25 20:36
laubersm The RN then has all the details in their own sections Mar 25 20:37
quaid Sparks: with adjectives Mar 25 20:37
jjmcd We also have a link to the feature list Mar 25 20:37
quaid Fantastic new sparkling beans in a can! Mar 25 20:37
quaid v . Mar 25 20:37
quaid beans Mar 25 20:37
ke4qqq latest vintage sparkling beans in a can :) Mar 25 20:37
Sparks yikes Mar 25 20:37
Sparks no more beans!  :) Mar 25 20:37
jjmcd And you don't learn that you need a fancy new $1000 can opener until you get to the beats Mar 25 20:37
laubersm and btw - the feature list needs some love too - there was a request to f-d-l a while back to wordsmith it and I have done some but it needs much more... Mar 25 20:38
Sparks The desktop statement just sounds bland to me Mar 25 20:38
jjmcd It kind of is ... there are no really cool user features Mar 25 20:38
Sparks Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop? Mar 25 20:38
ke4qqq they moved to kde 4.2 and gnome 2.26 Mar 25 20:39
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Sparks so they just changed the number? Mar 25 20:39
laubersm and fixed the bugs Mar 25 20:39
laubersm they changed how sound works in gnome Mar 25 20:39
laubersm and broke it elsewhere Mar 25 20:39
jjmcd I think there were some enablers there, too, but nothing earth shattering Mar 25 20:39
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ke4qqq 20 second startup? Mar 25 20:40
*laubersm is kidding Mar 25 20:40
ke4qqq Auto Bug Reporting Tool? Mar 25 20:40
Sparks Gnome 2.26 has been updated to include new sound controls, a faster startup, and an ATM that will funnel money directly into your pocket Mar 25 20:40
ke4qqq tbird3 Mar 25 20:41
ke4qqq delta rpms? preso Mar 25 20:41
ke4qqq presto Mar 25 20:41
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ke4qqq ohhhh the big one Mar 25 20:41
laubersm ke4qqq, are you suggesting we replace some of the existing bullets with these other choices? Mar 25 20:41
ke4qqq OPENCHANGE Mar 25 20:41
ke4qqq I am answering Sparks question Mar 25 20:42
*laubersm looks back.... Mar 25 20:42
Sparks ke4qqq: What was my question?!? Mar 25 20:42
Sparks Oh Mar 25 20:42
Sparks Bah Mar 25 20:42
laubersm ahh Mar 25 20:42
ke4qqq 20:38 < Sparks> Didn't they do anything to spice up the desktop? Mar 25 20:42
ke4qqq but we HAVE to cover openchange Mar 25 20:42
ke4qqq that's HUGE Mar 25 20:42
ke4qqq first distro to have it Mar 25 20:43
laubersm ke4qqq, but those are not parts of the desktop envirment themselves... they are separate apps Mar 25 20:43
stickster We don't need to cover every single change in the Beta announcement Mar 25 20:43
Sparks Openchange? Mar 25 20:43
ke4qqq native mapi library for linux Mar 25 20:43
ke4qqq corporate drones like me rejoice Mar 25 20:43
laubersm wow!!! Mar 25 20:43
Sparks  :) Mar 25 20:43
laubersm what's that mean? Mar 25 20:43
ke4qqq native exchange access for evolution and kdepim Mar 25 20:43
laubersm ick Mar 25 20:44
Sparks Are we really going to say "Microsoft" in our announcement? Mar 25 20:44
jjmcd Not nearly as HUGE as qtel Mar 25 20:44
Sparks That's just bad juju right there Mar 25 20:44
laubersm but I can see why corp drones rejoice Mar 25 20:44
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ke4qqq perhaps my perspective is skewed on that point Mar 25 20:44
ke4qqq I'll defer to the wisdom of others Mar 25 20:45
quaid Sparks: it's a trademark Mar 25 20:45
ke4qqq though I think it's huge. Mar 25 20:45
ke4qqq jjmcd: what's qtel? Mar 25 20:45
quaid it's just habit to use trademarks of other people correctly, it's respectful Mar 25 20:45
jjmcd echolink client - huge to a different audience Mar 25 20:45
laubersm we are already saying Microsoft - with the cross compiler. Mar 25 20:45
stickster We can get away with just the first one, though, which is also standard Mar 25 20:45
quaid Sparks: also, I don't like to concede the generic word 'windows' to MSFT Mar 25 20:45
Sparks Yeah... but it points out that there are other OSs to deal with. We shouldn't be point out anyone else's OS... IMO Mar 25 20:46
stickster quaid: The problem is, now it reads like it's a Microsoft product we're including. Mar 25 20:46
quaid stickster: not really iirc aiui Mar 25 20:46
quaid ok then reword it Mar 25 20:46
Sparks stickster: yeah Mar 25 20:46
quaid how about Mar 25 20:46
stickster dammit, that's not right either Mar 25 20:46
stickster There you go Mar 25 20:46
quaid not MS Mar 25 20:47
Sparks Cross compiler for that "OtherOS" Mar 25 20:47
quaid heh Mar 25 20:47
Sparks ") Mar 25 20:47
Sparks  :) Mar 25 20:47
jjmcd "Windows from that evil empire in Washington"? Mar 25 20:47
*G_work_ is now known as G_work Mar 25 20:47
*laubersm seems to remember that same issue/discussion when that item reached feature review as well.... Mar 25 20:48
*ke4qqq notes we are 47 minutes into the meeting. Mar 25 20:48
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quaid who summoned EvilBob ?!?! Mar 25 20:49
jjmcd But we have made huge improvements in the announcement Mar 25 20:49
Sparks ke4qqq: We are going over tonight Mar 25 20:49
quaid ok, working meeting is tough Mar 25 20:49
quaid Sparks: do you want to cover anything else within the hour Mar 25 20:49
ke4qqq I am not objecting - just keeping us mindful Mar 25 20:49
stickster Is there not Publican stuff on the agenda? Mar 25 20:49
ke4qqq of the time Mar 25 20:49
quaid just in case ppl have to go? Mar 25 20:49
Sparks Yeah, does anyone need to bail at the top of the hour? Mar 25 20:49
quaid we could take apause on the announcement Mar 25 20:49
stickster Sparks: Unfortch, I do Mar 25 20:50
quaid I just read it top to bottom and did a few edits, it's quite there Mar 25 20:50
Sparks bah Mar 25 20:50
Sparks Okay... Mar 25 20:50
*Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Publican Discussion Mar 25 20:50
Sparks We'll jump back on the announcement in a few... Mar 25 20:50
Sparks So there is a problem. Mar 25 20:50
jjmcd multiples, actually Mar 25 20:50
Sparks We've been trying to shoehorn Publican into Fedora for the past three releases... Mar 25 20:50
Sparks and I know that I've gone rounds with Publican trying to get it to meet my needs... Mar 25 20:51
stickster Er, two, right? Mar 25 20:51
Sparks with some success. Mar 25 20:51
stickster Anyway, it's been a while coming. Mar 25 20:51
Sparks I'm going to count three problems... Mar 25 20:51
Sparks 1) The naming schema does not match Fedora naming schema. Mar 25 20:51
Sparks 2) The Translators don't get statistics from Publican packages. Mar 25 20:52
Sparks 3) Support is lacking for changes that need to be made for Fedora. Mar 25 20:52
ke4qqq  ? Mar 25 20:52
quaid on #2, stats are available via CLI tools only, which breaks team workflow Mar 25 20:52
Sparks quaid: Thanks Mar 25 20:52
quaid on #1, this is packaging naming in specific Mar 25 20:53
Sparks right Mar 25 20:53
jjmcd It also looks as if the structure of the various langs produced by Publican is different and something else we may need to deal with Mar 25 20:53
quaid ke4qqq: go ahead Mar 25 20:53
quaid jjmcd: good point Mar 25 20:53
quaid previous tools put all langs in one package Mar 25 20:53
stickster Another note on #2, Spot and I have been working on some folks internally to break loose some hours to pitch in code that lets Tx handle Publican. Mar 25 20:53
quaid publican produces 1 package per lang Mar 25 20:53
quaid meaning we have x*y new packages Mar 25 20:53
Sparks and each has to be evaluated Mar 25 20:54
stickster 1 SRPM per lang? Mar 25 20:54
ke4qqq can you explain #3 - should I be taking that as upstream doesn't want to help us, or that they are abandoning? Mar 25 20:54
ke4qqq stickster: what has your success level been? Mar 25 20:54
jjmcd But if we need to hack the rpm, we *MAY* be able to fix that anyway Mar 25 20:54
stickster ke4qqq: Hang on, let's resolve these questions first Mar 25 20:54
ke4qqq ok Mar 25 20:54
quaid ke4qqq: features requested have primarily been met with an answer that they are not pertinent to the Publican audience. Mar 25 20:54
stickster quaid: Is that 1 SRPM per lang? Mar 25 20:54
Sparks ke4qqq: I have moderate success with getting things fixed upstream but I've also been told that fixes for "silly" Fedora problems won't be fixed. Mar 25 20:54
Sparks which is a problem Mar 25 20:55
jjmcd stickster: yes Mar 25 20:55
quaid ke4qqq: and either cannot be done as it is written or there are no resources to fix but a patch is welcome.\ Mar 25 20:55
stickster Oh. Ew. Mar 25 20:55
quaid yeah, forgot about that one Mar 25 20:55
Sparks yeah, that one has been brewing for a while Mar 25 20:55
ke4qqq wow - guess that's one way to get package count up Mar 25 20:55
quaid *snort* Mar 25 20:56
stickster That should be part of any spec file fix that we brew up, if we bother at all. Mar 25 20:56
Sparks Does anyone have any questions about #1? Mar 25 20:56
Sparks (I'm going to dig up an email in a sec...) Mar 25 20:56
jjmcd does our package HAVE to be called f-r-n Mar 25 20:56
quaid jjmcd: ask f13 Mar 25 20:56
Sparks jjmcd: The problem stems from the product number being put into the name. Mar 25 20:57
stickster jjmcd: It needs to carry the word "fedora-" at the front, AIUI, since it's part of the branding that would be removed in a remix. Mar 25 20:57
f13 ... what name would you prefer? Mar 25 20:57
Sparks It is the difference between fedora-security-guide and fedora-security-guide-10 Mar 25 20:58
jjmcd I was wondering why not allow Publican to put the release number in the package name Mar 25 20:58
f13 eeew Mar 25 20:58
Sparks Well, right now you can't turn it off Mar 25 20:58
f13 versions should never be in the name. Mar 25 20:58
Sparks and the Security Guide is not tied directly to ANY specific release of Fedora Mar 25 20:58
jjmcd Why not allow people to install the NEXT version of release notes to study before installing? Mar 25 20:59
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quaid jjmcd: right, that's the use case being argued for Mar 25 20:59
stickster jjmcd: That was kind of my question. It's actually a useful thing IMHO Mar 25 20:59
quaid but it's a packaging committee discussion, really Mar 25 20:59
quaid and someone has to care enough to take it there Mar 25 20:59
f13 you can upgrade your release notes Mar 25 20:59
f13 do you think that somebody would want to go back and read the old ones locally once that has been done? Mar 25 21:00
quaid f13: it's for sysadmins Mar 25 21:00
f13 (and why would they install the package when the newer release notes are available on the web?) Mar 25 21:00
quaid to have multiple versions of one guide Mar 25 21:00
stickster f13: And for writers. Mar 25 21:00
quaid one per package Mar 25 21:00
laubersm f13: yes Mar 25 21:00
ke4qqq so do we have someone lobbying FPC for this? Mar 25 21:00
quaid ke4qqq: not from Docs Mar 25 21:00
quaid that I know of Mar 25 21:00
quaid nor do I see consensus that is the way to go :L) Mar 25 21:01
Sparks I don't have a problem having the number there but I want the option to turn it off. Mar 25 21:01
Sparks Because I don't want it in my document. Mar 25 21:01
jjmcd I'm not convinced it is the right answer, but I'm not convinced it isn't Mar 25 21:01
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quaid seems a legit use case to me Mar 25 21:02
quaid but it's freaking late to bring the case Mar 25 21:02
stickster Sparks: So the problem here is that Publican doesn't predict any documentation that's not tied to a specific software release Mar 25 21:02
Sparks I'd be happy to fight the battle with the FPC but Publican is broken for me Mar 25 21:02
jjmcd Yeah, whatever we do we need to work with the tools we got Mar 25 21:02
Sparks stickster: You cannot tell Publican to NOT use the product number. So everything HAS to be tied to a specific release. Mar 25 21:02
quaid how much work would it be to add PDF to fedora-doc-utils and package the whole thing? Mar 25 21:03
quaid s/add/fix/ Mar 25 21:03
Sparks quaid: Would you like me to paste the five options? Mar 25 21:03
jjmcd And my leaning is to continue down the Publican path, so we are at least a baby step closer come F12 time Mar 25 21:03
Sparks jjmcd: We wouldn't be Mar 25 21:03
Sparks Okay... earlier I posted an email to the f-docs-l... Mar 25 21:04
stickster I would like to try my hand at fixing this problem, but it's hours that I don't tend to have anymore :-( Mar 25 21:04
Sparks that had five options for moving forward because I don't tread water that well... Mar 25 21:04
quaid jjmcd: someone from the wide community needs to be a Publican contributor, work on Fedora Docs needs, and maybe take over the package. Mar 25 21:04
Sparks 1. Use Publican for a guide but munge through to an RPM that Fedora will Mar 25 21:04
Sparks consume; use jjmcd's script or a new .spec file Mar 25 21:04
Sparks 2. Fork Publican and remove the variable that puts the version # in the Mar 25 21:04
Sparks name Mar 25 21:04
Sparks 3. Get the Packaging Committee to amend the rules Mar 25 21:04
Sparks 4. Use Publican for HTML + PDF and fedora-doc-utils for RPM Mar 25 21:04
Sparks 5. Use f-doc-utils exclusively Mar 25 21:04
stickster Because I *think* we could add needed support to the publican-fedora brand pacakge. Mar 25 21:04
stickster *package. Mar 25 21:04
Sparks I don't have a problem with forking the development at this point. Mar 25 21:05
quaid jjmcd: iirc jfearn has stated that he'd love to not maintain the package Mar 25 21:05
laubersm I like the idea of a FPC exception for F11 name with version and long term fix publican to allow no version number Mar 25 21:05
stickster I don't think a fork is required, we could put needed support in the Makefile.fedora Mar 25 21:05
quaid jjmcd: without that level of commitment from some general Fedoran, I fear we'll always be second citizens in the Publican audience Mar 25 21:05
ke4qqq I am rapidly favoring the fork option. Especially if upstream considers these "silly" Mar 25 21:05
*stickster thinks we should not rush to using the word "fork" if people here simply aren't aware of what we can apply to the publican-fedora package. Mar 25 21:06
jjmcd I don't think the number is the only problem Mar 25 21:06
stickster Let's put that term aside for a moment. Mar 25 21:06
Sparks stickster: It's not in the makefile Mar 25 21:06
Sparks stickster: It is in the core of Publican Mar 25 21:06
stickster Sparks: Well, the thing creating the specfile is an XSL sheet, yes? Mar 25 21:07
Sparks stickster: No idea. I don't remember where I pulled that line of code out and beat it with a hammer. Mar 25 21:07
Sparks stickster: But if it were that easy, why all the problems four months later? Mar 25 21:08
stickster So, as a fellow Docs guy, I'm not really comfortable with people yelling "Fork! Fork!" when we don't fully grok the technical stuff Mar 25 21:08
stickster Because then it seems like we really don't know why we're forking. Mar 25 21:08
Sparks Spoon! Spoon! Mar 25 21:08
stickster heh Mar 25 21:08
jjmcd But it does look to me, at least for F11, that option 4 is the straightest line Mar 25 21:09
stickster jjmcd: The problem is that fedora-doc-utils won't work with Publican formatted materials, and vice versa. Mar 25 21:09
stickster They are mutually incompatible. Mar 25 21:09
stickster (at least, not without some hacking, which, if we're going to do it, we might as well try to do with Publican.) Mar 25 21:09
stickster er, publican-fedora Mar 25 21:10
jjmcd But since all we need is basically a specfile, is it really that big of a deal? Mar 25 21:10
Sparks yeah, we need to get PDF action into fedora-doc-utils IF that is something we want to offer Mar 25 21:10
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stickster I'll take a task of looking at Publican up through this weekend to see what we can fix. If I don't think it can be done, I should at least explain why to the list. Mar 25 21:10
jjmcd Publican makes docs we can use, it just doesn't package them Mar 25 21:10
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*stickster notes that if jfearn is amenable to our taking over publican-fedora, we should try and implement fixes there. But if the architecture doesn't allow it, we move on. Mar 25 21:11
stickster Or at least, I will :-) Mar 25 21:11
Sparks jjmcd: We make docs we can use... That last step is putting them in the hands of everyone else Mar 25 21:11
jjmcd Yes, but all that really is is packaging Mar 25 21:12
*stickster has to bail, late Mar 25 21:12
*laubersm too Mar 25 21:12
jjmcd ciao Mar 25 21:12
stickster I'll catch up on the log and see what I can do with publican-fedora over the rest of the week Mar 25 21:12
Sparks Okay, I think we should let stickster do some investigating and maybe he can tell us something next week. Mar 25 21:12
Tsagadai option 6 is far easier Mar 25 21:12
Sparks Anything else before we go back to the Beta Announcement? Mar 25 21:13
jjmcd PDF Mar 25 21:13
Sparks yes? Mar 25 21:14
jjmcd Is that something we want,and where Mar 25 21:14
*stickster is now known as stickster_afk Mar 25 21:14
ke4qqq yes Mar 25 21:14
Sparks Good question. What are we going to do with a PDF? Mar 25 21:14
quaid jjmcd: we want them for all docs, on docs.fp.o Mar 25 21:14
jjmcd Personally, I like PDFs, but since we don't have them I don't see their place Mar 25 21:14
quaid alongside tarball, html one page, etc. Mar 25 21:14
Sparks quaid: In lieu of html? Mar 25 21:14
quaid jjmcd: long requested feature Mar 25 21:14
jjmcd OK, that would be good Mar 25 21:14
quaid no Mar 25 21:15
quaid alongside html Mar 25 21:15
quaid ppl want to print the Installation Guide, etc. Mar 25 21:15
Sparks +1 Mar 25 21:15
jjmcd yepper Mar 25 21:15
Sparks Okay, anything else? Mar 25 21:16
*laubersm is now known as laubersm_afk Mar 25 21:16
ke4qqq quaid: they might not this release :) Mar 25 21:16
jjmcd because the IG is unhelpful? Mar 25 21:16
ke4qqq because it's up to 172 pages Mar 25 21:16
jjmcd That hard to install, huh Mar 25 21:17
Sparks Okay... back to the announcement Mar 25 21:17
*Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Beta Announcement Part 2 Mar 25 21:17
Sparks Any other changes? Mar 25 21:17
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Sparks I see jjmcd making a few changes Mar 25 21:19
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jjmcd I still keep wondering about gcc. I feel like we should be warning ppl, but it doesn't seem right in an announcement Mar 25 21:20
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jjmcd Do we need to talk about replacing HAL? Mar 25 21:21
jjmcd Maybe for the geeks Mar 25 21:21
Sparks the gcc thing still sounds weird Mar 25 21:21
ke4qqq not replacing - but perhaps what replaced it Mar 25 21:21
Sparks volume control model ??? Mar 25 21:23
ke4qqq indeed!!! Mar 25 21:23
Sparks Should that just be volume control? Mar 25 21:23
jjmcd yeah Mar 25 21:23
*ke4qqq thought we were talking about going up to 11 Mar 25 21:23
*jjmcd is still stressing over gcc ... ... Mar 25 21:23
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Sparks jjmcd: Is there anything in the RN about power management or "greeness"? Mar 25 21:25
jjmcd ke4qqq - any better? Mar 25 21:25
jjmcd I don't recall seeing anything Mar 25 21:25
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ke4qqq worksforme Mar 25 21:25
ke4qqq q Mar 25 21:25
Sparks I thought there was some changes coming for powertop Mar 25 21:25
jjmcd Nothing in the talking points Mar 25 21:27
Sparks Make ext4 the default files system for anaconda-driven installs (replacing ext3). User should notice generally better performance, and benefit from things such as persistent preallocation when using updated torrent clients, and so forth. Mar 25 21:27
Sparks and so forth? Mar 25 21:27
ke4qqq torrent clients seems too much detail Mar 25 21:28
ke4qqq how about better performance? Mar 25 21:28
ke4qqq and end it there? Mar 25 21:28
jjmcd There is a kind of motherhood and apple pie statement in the feature list about power Mar 25 21:28
ke4qqq and so forth? Mar 25 21:29
ke4qqq do my changes to ext4 rile anyones feathers? Mar 25 21:29
Sparks I don't like the "and so forth" Mar 25 21:29
ke4qqq well that disappeared with some other stuff Mar 25 21:30
Sparks jjmcd: What is it? Mar 25 21:30
Sparks ke4qqq: Remove generally? Mar 25 21:30
ke4qqq ok Mar 25 21:30
jjmcd Looking at the feature page for power management and it looks pretty good Mar 25 21:30
jjmcd not so sure it will be easy to say in 25 wors or less Mar 25 21:31
Sparks ke4qqq: how's that? Mar 25 21:31
Sparks jjmcd: link? Mar 25 21:31
ke4qqq why add read/write - one of the cool improvements is fsck time Mar 25 21:31
jjmcd Features/Power_Management - sorry on another box Mar 25 21:31
ke4qqq how about filesystem Mar 25 21:31
ke4qqq  ? Mar 25 21:31
ke4qqq will is much stronger +1 Mar 25 21:32
Sparks  :) Mar 25 21:33
ke4qqq am I crazy or does a not belong there? Mar 25 21:33
Sparks YOU WILL! Mar 25 21:33
Sparks where? Mar 25 21:33
ke4qqq shall we move to #fedora-docs? Mar 25 21:33
ke4qqq nm it's addressed now Mar 25 21:33
ke4qqq the a part not the moving Mar 25 21:33
Sparks I don't like ext4, still Mar 25 21:33
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Sparks Anyone have anything else for the meeting? Mar 25 21:35
*Sparks has changed the topic to: Docs Project - Anything else? Mar 25 21:35
Sparks Thanks everyone for coming! Mar 25 21:36
Sparks </meeting> Mar 25 21:36
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