Meeting:Docs IRC log 20091119

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Sparks #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 00:02
zodbot Meeting started Thu Nov 19 00:02:20 2009 UTC. The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 00:02
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 00:02
Sparks #topic Roll Call 00:02
* Sparks 00:02
* radsy is here 00:02
* rudi is here 00:02
* bcotton is here 00:02
* jjmcd . 00:02
* Sparks gives everyone a few more minutes 00:04
Sparks Okay, let's get started 00:08
Sparks #chair jjmcd 00:08
zodbot Current chairs: Sparks jjmcd 00:08
Sparks #topic Docs Project Leader Elections 00:08
Sparks When I took this job back in January(?) I wanted to make sure that we had elections for a new leader after F12 got released. 00:09
Sparks So here is my suggestion... 00:09
Sparks We take nominations starting tonight and vote next week. 00:09
Sparks Thoughts? 00:09
jjmcd wikipage 00:09
Sparks That's a good place to start 00:10
rudi sounds like a plan; and the wiki is the natural place for noms to go 00:10
jjmcd Although, we could just agree to re-elect you by acclimation 00:10
Sparks rudi: Works for me. 00:10
Sparks I won't take the job unless someone else runs 00:11
Sparks  :) 00:11
* Sparks votes for ---> that guy 00:11
jjmcd And I won't run unless I can find a sucker ... errr ... leader for RNs 00:11
Sparks We should probably figure out if we want to do this yearly or releasely or... 00:12
jjmcd Personally, I could argue for either 00:12
jjmcd Yearly gives somebody a chance to get established 00:12
Sparks yes 00:12
jjmcd releasely gives is a quicker way to get rid of a turkey 00:13
bcotton i'd think releasely would be a bit hectic 00:14
Sparks jjmcd: I think you should be able to get rid of me... err... a turkey at any point 00:14
* Sparks establishes https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Leader_Elections 00:14
jjmcd So we need an impeachment process? 00:14
Sparks WE DON'T LIKE YOU ANYMORE... GET OFF THE STAGE! 00:14
* jjmcd prefers burning torches 00:15
Sparks Okay, I'll send out an email after the meeting 00:15
Sparks #action Sparks to send out email on nominations 00:15
Sparks Okay, anything else on this topic? 00:15
Sparks #topic Release Notes 00:16
jjmcd You saw the notes to the list 00:16
Sparks First I'd like to thank jjmcd and rudi and everyone else who helped in getting the Release Notes completed. 00:16
Sparks You guys did an awesome job! 00:17
Sparks Now if our technology could keep up...  :) 00:17
Sparks jjmcd: What are the translation issues? 00:17
rudi Ta -- there are still some bugs in the process, but we're getting better :) 00:17
jjmcd They do look nice on the new F12 background - but that's all on mo 00:17
jjmcd rudi is tracking them down, I think most are explainable 00:17
jjmcd We do need to decide when to publish 00:18
jjmcd and I like rudi's idea of moving in a direction of translators publishing, or at least deciding when 00:18
jjmcd And OBTW, as translations are committed, the built docs ARE available 00:18
Sparks jjmcd: I'd like it if the translators would join us on these meetings... especially around release time 00:18
jjmcd But without building themselves, translators have no view into the errors 00:19
jjmcd Yes, noriko at least was joining us for a while 00:19
Sparks jjmcd: So we need to do a classroom on how to use Publican? 00:19
jjmcd but they are spread out across timezones 00:19
rudi Sparks -- no, the problem is more deep-seated 00:19
jjmcd Well, it is a major PITA until the new TFX 00:19
Sparks jjmcd: True. Maybe the lead translator for each lang could join us... TZs make it tough 00:19
rudi yeah; Tx 0.7 is the blocker 00:20
Sparks rudi: more deep-seated? 00:20
rudi Until then, translators not only need to know how to use publican, but how to wrangle the merging and splitting as well 00:20
jjmcd And that isn't always obvious 00:20
Sparks yes 00:20
rudi and the "how to use Publican" is the least of their worries. 00:20
Sparks it isn't obvious to me! 00:21
rudi Even after all this time, *we* still bungle the merging and splitting 00:21
jjmcd When everything is hunky-dory, we could script it. But things are rarely perfect 00:21
rudi (which is the root of most of the English strings we're still seeing cropping up in the translations) 00:21
jjmcd Yep, that was my suspicion 00:21
rudi jjmcd -- yeah, confirmed. With yours truly being the chief bungler :) 00:22
jjmcd I will remind docs and trans later where to find the nightly builds of f12zeroday-tx 00:22
rudi But there are also some genuinely inexplicable ones, where strings we can see are definitely translated somehow don't get carried across the split... 00:23
Sparks jjmcd: When will the next batch ready to commit? 00:23
rudi Sparks, jjmcd -- we need to make a decision about when and whether to refresh the POTs 00:23
jjmcd rudi: yep. Sparks: Schedule says tomorrow, but I am poking L10N to ask if that makes sense 00:23
rudi And we probably need some input from L10N on that 00:23
jjmcd And with the latest flamebug, we may want to do that again real soon now 00:24
Sparks ya 00:24
rudi The refresh would pull in the latest fixes (from f12-temp), plus the flamebug, plus assorted small glitches that are breaking translations 00:24
rudi jjmcd -- did you want to do this before or after packaging the RN? 00:25
jjmcd I would also like to get something authoratative on processors. We have an outstanding bug that disagrees with other experts, and I don't know who to believe 00:25
jjmcd rudi, we have a package in the DVD, and a more recent package on updates 00:25
jjmcd We will want to do another probably for the install thing first en then maybe all langs 00:26
rudi jjmcd -- Ah OK! so any update is not going to interfere with thath 00:26
rudi * that 00:26
jjmcd I don't think we want to wait that one for the translations 00:26
jjmcd yeah, Sparks has been great on getting these things to the repos 00:26
rudi OK -- so regenerate today? 00:26
jjmcd sounds good to me 00:26
jjmcd There is more manual than I would like in the packaging, but it isn't some huge deal 00:27
jjmcd The real problem is waiting hours and hours to build all the langs 00:28
jjmcd Well, mostly to merge 00:28
jjmcd BTW, I saw you committed some merged pos 00:28
jjmcd If we can keep up with that, it could be a real help 00:28
rudi NP -- I'm trying to make sure that the master branch stays current and ready to build 00:29
jjmcd good, I like that 00:29
jjmcd http://fedora.is-sixsigma.com/F12beta/ - regenerated every night, from t12zeroday even tho it says beta 00:29
rudi So -- the other question is -- do we wait till we have an answer on the arches before rebuilding? 00:29
rudi *regenerating 00:30
jjmcd I think we need to deal with the install policy immediately 00:30
rudi We have text on the policy change ready to insert? 00:31
jjmcd As much as I would like an answer on the other, I think all those guys are burning their cycles on BZ534047 00:31
jjmcd No 00:31
jjmcd Well, there is text 00:31
jjmcd and widespread agreement it is wron 00:31
rudi OK -- well, we need something definitive in the f12-temp branch ASAP 00:32
rudi radsy -- are you in a position to write it up? 00:32
jjmcd So, I will craft some weasel words that try to avoid the emotion, but we still need a definitive workaround 00:32
rudi Yeah -- whether the change is good, bad, or ugly is not relevant to the RN 00:32
jjmcd The fix posted by Seth isn't even available to most people 00:32
rudi Just its effects and what to do if you don't like it for whatever reason 00:33
jjmcd You gotta be a policykit developer to even have the tool 00:33
jjmcd It is the what to do that is the problem 00:33
jjmcd Not too hard to describe the change 00:34
rudi OK 00:34
jjmcd Does that become 5.2.1, or 4.1? 00:34
rudi So where are we going to get that from? 00:34
jjmcd Well, the bug thread hasn't slowed yet 00:35
rudi I'd say 5.2.1, with a pointer in 4.1 00:35
jjmcd Oh maybe it has. I couldn't get a word in edgewise earlier, but now it's been an hour since someone commented 00:35
jjmcd On the bug, I'm sure the mailing list is still lively 00:36
Sparks jjmcd: Would now be a good time to ask for a definitive answer on what needs to go in the RNs? 00:36
jjmcd Or everyone got frustrated with the in-flight collisions on bugzilla 00:36
jjmcd Ask where? 00:37
Sparks jjmcd: The more I think about it the more I think that PK should just be uninstalled on systems where users shouldn't be installing software... almost makes sense. 00:37
Sparks jjmcd: On the bug. 00:37
jjmcd Seems like everyone has a horse in this race 00:37
Sparks jjmcd: you/we still need an answer 00:37
jjmcd yep 00:37
* Sparks got hit twice on the same post with a collision 00:37
jjmcd And we need to test it 00:37
jjmcd Much of what has been talked about doesn't work for ordinary mortals 00:38
Sparks jjmcd: I agree 00:38
jjmcd What I think we are saying, rudi, is that we aren't ready for a full rebuild 00:39
Sparks jjmcd: Well... work up some text saying what PK does and that a solution is in the works 00:39
jjmcd I'll post en-US as soon as we get an answer, and we can do the big thing tomorrow 00:39
rudi yeah, that's what I'm hearing. 00:39
Sparks jjmcd: If you get the solution before you crash for the night then put it in... 00:39
Sparks jjmcd: otherwise build it and let's do a push 00:39
Sparks ok 00:40
jjmcd Yeah, at least on docs.fp.o I can put a warning 00:40
Sparks WORKSFORME 00:40
Sparks Okay, anything else on the Release Notes? 00:42
jjmcd rudi, any clue why the rev history is missing from the trans? 00:42
rudi jjmcd -- yeah; I turned them off 00:43
jjmcd Oh, OK 00:43
rudi when I was building 00:43
rudi the changes that you had to make for yelp caused them to blow up when I was building the translated versions 00:43
jjmcd I had no theory about that, as long as there's an answer and it isn't a mystery 00:43
rudi And, strapped for time, that seemed like the best solution 00:43
jjmcd oooohhhh, I thought I kept the yelp changes out of git except for the table length 00:44
rudi Yeah; no mystery 00:44
rudi Hmmm. 00:44
rudi So the "xyz changes (cont'd)" shouldn't be in there either? 00:45
jjmcd I cut the max table size down some in the hopes it might help - didn't 00:45
jjmcd Oh yeah, just the tables were shorter 00:45
rudi Oh OK 00:45
jjmcd I think I was limiting them to like 250 entries or something, shortened to 100 00:45
jjmcd didn't help,.. but I also hoped they might help you build, too 00:46
rudi Well, *something* helped me build 00:46
rudi I was finally able to build them on my machine without having to SSH into ryanlerch's :) 00:46
jjmcd Don't you love a good mystery 00:46
Sparks Okay... Moving on... 00:49
Sparks #topic Guide Status 00:49
Sparks Anyone have any problems with their guide or want to talk about their guide? 00:49
radsy i did lots of updates to the selinux user-guide yesterday, thanks to a BZ that slipped through the cracks of my memory 00:50
radsy got it up in CVS overnight, it's fine now 00:50
Sparks radsy: Cool! 00:50
Sparks Anyone else? 00:51
radsy basically the removal of setroubleshootd as a permanent daemon 00:51
Sparks  :) 00:52
Sparks #topic New Guides 00:52
Sparks Any new guides in the works? 00:52
Sparks #topic Status on CC license rollout. 00:53
Sparks For those of you that didn't know... 00:53
Sparks We have officially changed over to the CC-BY-SA license! 00:53
Sparks All of these tasks are complete! 00:53
Sparks Thanks to everyone who made this possible... it was truly a team effort. 00:53
Sparks #topic All other business 00:54
Sparks And with six minutes left... does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss? 00:54
radsy https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=534047 ? :) 00:55
buggbot Bug 534047: high, low, ---, richard, ASSIGNED, All users get to install software on a machine they do not have the root password to 00:55
radsy i'm starting to think we might want to wait for the dust to settle 00:55
radsy security response team are trying to find out if it will be reverted 00:56
radsy nobody knows it seems... 00:56
Sparks radsy: IMHO we need to get the word out that right now the vulnerability exists. 00:56
radsy your call 00:56
Sparks if admins/owners don't know that there is a change then they are assuming that they are protected. 00:57
Sparks but, of course, that is my opinion... 00:57
radsy we do have a lot of hits on the RN right now, being so close after release 00:57
Sparks Yeah 00:57
radsy i guess it can't hurt, quick enough to pull if needed 00:58
Sparks anyone have any thoughts on how Docs should handle the PK ordeal within the next 24-hours? 00:58
Sparks I'm assuming that within 72-hours we'll know more and can stand down more. 00:58
Sparks radsy: ya... we can get text up and down very quickly 00:58
rudi Well, we could add a note about the *existence* of the issue right now 00:58
Sparks rudi: Yeah, that's basically what I'm thinking right now 00:59
rudi Even if we don't have a suggested fix 00:59
rudi I kinda think that if there were a fix out there that most people could implement, we would have heard about it by now... 00:59
radsy and mention it's still in contention 00:59
rudi radsy +1 00:59
Sparks yep 01:00
Sparks Okay... it is the end of our hour. Anything else to discuss before we close? 01:00
radsy nice timing :) 01:00
Sparks Thanks everyone for coming tonight! 01:01
Sparks #endmeeting 01:01