Meeting:Docs USC students Installation Guide planning IRC log 20080924

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-!- JohnNguyen [n=nsdkhd@129.252.70.42] has joined #fedora-docs 16:05
JohnNguyen hello 16:06
-!- jmooney [n=soulspec@129.252.70.40] has joined #fedora-docs 16:06
JohnNguyen * mm 16:07
jmtaylor hi 16:09
JohnNguyen is quaid here? 16:18
-!- ianweller_afk is now known as ianweller 16:21
-!- nman64 [n=n-man@fedora/nman64] has joined #fedora-docs 16:21
quaid JohnNguyen: howdy 16:24
JohnNguyen hi 16:26
JohnNguyen i have my group here with us to learn docbook 16:26
quaid ok, cool 16:27
JohnNguyen Hi jmooney 16:27
jmooney hey john 16:27
jmooney quaid: is docbook a downloadable program or is it through a web site? 16:28
quaid jmooney: yes to both :), that is ... 16:28
ivazquez It's an XML application. 16:28
quaid jmooney: in the comparison with HTML 16:29
quaid HTML is markup text that is rendered directly by a Web browser 16:29
quaid DocBook XML can actually be rendered directly by the browser, 16:29
quaid but 16:29
quaid typically you use a stand alone application or toolchain 16:29
ryanlerch like publican! 16:30
quaid to convert from XML to e.g. HTML + CSS, then view with browser as normal 16:30
JohnNguyen So we need to use publican? 16:30
quaid right, publican is a toolchain that bundles several tools that process, render, convert, etc. 16:30
quaid JohnNguyen: ideally, yes 16:30
quaid JohnNguyen: ultimately ... 16:30
quaid the Installation Guide is going to be written to build most easily with publican 16:31
jmooney that clears a few things up :) 16:31
JohnNguyen So we need to be familiar with publican before the beta release? 16:31
quaid but it _can_ build with other tools, since it is "just docBook" 16:31
quaid yes, the tools you'll use are: 16:31
quaid * text editor (such as Emacs) to edit the files 16:31
quaid * publican to build on the command line 16:31
mdious JohnNguyen: there is a publican guide here: <http://jfearn.fedorapeople.org/Publican/> 16:31
quaid * git to check out and commit changes to the install-guide XML 16:32
quaid that's the main stuff 16:32
ryanlerch JohnNguyen: feel free to ask any publican q's here! 16:32
jmooney what does git mean? 16:32
quaid git is 16:32
ryanlerch version control 16:32
mdious too hard to use if you have not used version control before. ZING! ;) 16:32
quaid a distributed source version control tool 16:33
quaid mdious: disagree :) ... they all have the same paradigms, at that point when new, one is as hard as another 16:33
quaid are you all familiar 16:33
JohnNguyen No. we are not 16:33
jmooney alright im a need you to talk to me like i dont know anything about computers 16:33
jmooney erick 16:33
quaid with version control systems (VCS) such as CVS, Subversion (SVN), etc.? 16:33
jmooney what does that mean 16:33
* quaid explains 16:34
quaid when you are working with "just text" 16:34
quaid that is, source text, as in the code of the program or the text of a document in a source such as XML 16:34
ryanlerch http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-version-control/ 16:35
quaid we use a VCS as a way to collaborate; keep track of changes 16:35
quaid a VCS lets you designate one location (on a server, usually) 16:35
quaid that hosts the source for everyone 16:35
quaid then you check out a copy of the source 16:36
quaid make your edits 16:36
quaid and check that back in 16:36
quaid the VCS records the changes between what was in the repository before and after your change 16:36
quaid it keeps track of all those changes over time, so you can revert to a specific change 16:36
quaid if you've ever used 16:36
quaid the change highlighting feature in e.g. MS Word or OpenOffice.org 16:36
quaid that is similar, with a full VCS being like that x100 in terms of function and value. 16:37
* quaid lets that hang with ryanlerch's article to see how it sinks in 16:37
jmooney ok, that makes sense. I think we get it now :) 16:37
jmooney good explanation 16:37
JohnNguyen How do you make it color comments? 16:37
quaid well, the analogy 16:38
quaid to openoffice.org 16:38
quaid isn't perfect. 16:38
quaid but tools can show the difference between versions in various ways 16:38
quaid once you have the data stored, parsing the data to make charts, graphs, color differences, etc. is much easier. 16:39
quaid in this case, we are using a VCS called 'git' 16:39
quaid it is a bit different from older VCS systems, such as CVS or Subversion, because it is 'distributed' 16:39
quaid functionally, it works the same as older VCS do 16:40
mdious "kompare" from the kdesdk package is quite nice for pretty colours and diffing :) 16:40
quaid but it lets you make a clone of the central repository, do whatever you want in your clone, and sanely merge that back to an upstream/central that you designate. 16:40
quaid the workflow with git is like this: 16:41
quaid 1. clone the main git repository 16:41
quaid 2. edit, make changes 16:41
quaid 3. commit those changes to your local git copy 16:41
quaid 4. merge all changes to the remote, central git on fedorahosted.org/install-guide 16:41
quaid 5. the rest of us sync our clone/copy after you merge to the central 16:41
quaid it is _very_ smart at dealing with multiple editors in the same file 16:42
quaid that is, if you edit a file from lines 22 to 66, and I edit line 12, 33, and 100 to 150 16:42
quaid git will do a very smart merge, including interweaving unless our edits 16:42
quaid are in direct conflict 16:42
quaid so now, as it happens, we have the install-guide available in XML 16:44
quaid so you can check it out and start learning on it directly 16:44
quaid with the caveat 16:44
quaid that we are making some changes to the book so it builds using publican 16:44
quaid (instead of the Fedora Docs toolchain) 16:45
quaid so, it builds as-is right now, so there is good value in learning from the working XML already. 16:45
quaid https://fedorahosted.org/install-guide/browser 16:45
* quaid looks for that good git usage tutorial 16:45
quaid JohnNguyen,jmooney ... so I'm presuming you are using Fedora machines for this work, somehow. 16:47
quaid it is possible to do most of this from other OSes, but it introduces different hurdles. 16:48
mdious quaid: G sent me <http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html> which was good coming from using svn... 16:48
ianweller quaid: do you think we need to change wiki cleanup admonitions to a gray color and separate them from
Note.png
? it's been bugging me for the last few days
16:49
jmooney we have virtual machines loaded, will this work? 16:49
quaid ianweller: striped background? 16:49
quaid jmooney: it should, as long as you can install software to it 16:50
ianweller quaid: hmm maybe that's a possibility 16:50
JohnNguyen quaid: I've ran the live cd 16:50
ianweller something like light gray diagonal stripes (15px wide or so) on lighter gray? 16:50
quaid ooh 16:50
* ianweller will mock it up later this evening and throw it at the list 16:50
quaid JohnNguyen: one option is to install a live F9 image to a USB key; that lets you update and install software 16:51
JohnNguyen quaid: ke4qqq has told us about that before 16:52
-!- ianweller is now known as ianweller_afk 16:52
quaid JohnNguyen: the challenge is that you need to install software that is not on that live CD 16:52
quaid https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator 16:53
quaid that tool lets you create a live usb from Windows 16:53
quaid JohnNguyen: as I think about each step ... 16:56
quaid we'll need some kind of Fedora install you can add software to 16:56
quaid for each part 16:56
quaid in addition, writing the Installation Guide requires running the installer, which could be on stand-alone machine or in a virtual machine running in e.g. Fedora. 16:57
quaid so, I can show you the DocBook right now 16:57
JohnNguyen okay, thats what we are looking for 16:57
quaid and check it out to the Live CD 16:58
-!- odin [n=ericklem@129.252.70.46] has joined #fedora-docs 17:00
odin ok people 17:00
odin im here 17:00
JohnNguyen quaid: What do you mean check it out? 17:00
jmooney quaid: odin is with us 17:00
quaid JohnNguyen: this is back to using git 17:01
JohnNguyen jmooney: ok 17:01
quaid when you get a copy a document source, it's called checking it out 17:01
quaid there is some terminology covered here: http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-version-control/ 17:01
jmooney that clears up alot 17:03
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odin quaid can you explain to me the process you want us to go through to begin gathering valid information about Fedora 10 17:03
quaid odin: sure 17:05
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quaid <process> 17:06
quaid 1. get a working install of Fedora 9 that you can add software to 17:06
quaid 2. check out a copy of the current Installation Guide source (in DocBook XML) 17:06
quaid 3. download the F10 Beta (coming out next week) 17:07
quaid 4. either on a different machine or in the F9 install using virtualization, run an install of Fedora 10 17:07
quaid 5. compare and contrast with the installation workflow documented in the F9 Installation Guide (which is what the XML source adheres to currently) 17:08
quaid side note -- you can use the Installation Guide (aka IG) during step 1. as an aid and learning opportunity 17:08
quaid 6. as you see what is different in the F10 installer, write changes directly in the XML 17:08
quaid 6.1 you may discover big changes and need to coordinate with the team; a new screen, difference in the installer flow, etc. 17:09
quaid 7. copy back (commit) your changes to the central source repository control (fedorahosted.org/install-guide/) 17:09
quaid I think that is the main part of everything, actually 17:10
odin good 17:11
odin does fedora install differntly on diffent machines 17:11
odin mainly drivers 17:11
odin or i think you call it tar file 17:11
jmooney quaid: thanks for the steps. that helps alot. 17:12
quaid odin: side answer, a tar file is similar to a zip file 17:13
quaid different hardware will use different drivers 17:13
quaid there should be something that works for any hardware in the installer 17:13
quaid if you have, for example, an old iBook or PowerBook based on the PowerPC (G3 or G4), you can install using the "PowerPC" or "PPC" version of Fedora 17:14
quaid odin: but to answer what I think is your real question :) 17:14
quaid odin: one guide covers all hardware types; there is no difference in the installation flow once the installing person has the correct installation source. 17:14
odin is the installation source specific to the computer 17:16
quaid there are several main types 17:16
quaid 32-bit computers, 64-bit computers, and PPC 17:16
quaid http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora 17:16
mdious don't forget MIPS 17:16
quaid mdious: we don't have a MIPS install for Fedora that I know of :) 17:17
mdious  :( 17:17
-!- susan [n=susan@nat/redhat/x-37a4737b1356dde4] has joined #fedora-docs 17:17
mdious maybe there will be one for F11 :0 17:17
quaid well, you are welcome to add it as a secondary architecture 17:17
quaid there are some of those 17:17
odin no thanks 17:18
odin  :) 17:18
quaid heh, we'll let mdious do that if he wants 17:19
mdious  :) 17:20
JohnNguyen  :0 17:20
jmooney quaid: thats for pointing us in the right direction 17:21
quaid jmooney: anytime, that's what I'm here for 17:21
quaid don't hesitate to drop by at any time with any questions 17:21
quaid "the only stupid questions are the ones you didn't ask" 17:21
jmooney we just need to "nerd up" learn about docbook :) 17:22
quaid or something like that :) 17:22
ryanlerch the docbook reference is great! 17:22
ryanlerch i use it all the time... 17:22
JohnNguyen yay 17:22
ryanlerch http://oreilly.com/catalog/docbook/chapter/book/docbook.html 17:23
ryanlerch specifically http://oreilly.com/catalog/docbook/chapter/book/refelem.html 17:23
* quaid uses http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/ 17:24
quaid which is much the same thing 17:24
jmooney ok, looks like a lot of info, great place to get started 17:24
ryanlerch feel free to ask about the best tag to use... 17:26
ryanlerch i do that all the time 17:26
JohnNguyen So when we write up the IG, it has to be in docbook coding? 17:26
quaid JohnNguyen: yes 17:26
quaid when we work on a new guide, we often start it in the wiki and work there until it is ready for publishing, then we move it to XML 17:27
quaid once in XML it is too difficult to go back and forth (currently) 17:27
quaid we know that DocBook is not as easy to learn to edit as e.g. a wiki 17:28
quaid and that there is no great WYSIWYG editor for it, either 17:28
quaid ... it's all a continution evolution :) 17:28
-!- stickster_afk is now known as stickster_mtg 17:28
quaid ideally, "one day" we'll have a better two-way, so one can edit in a wiki or nice wysiwyg editor directly on the XML source in some way 17:29
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JohnNguyen quaid: For us to start it out, we can write it out first then worry about the coding in docbook when we have everything compile? 17:30
quaid JohnNguyen: theoretically that would seem like a good idea; in practice it might be more work 17:31
quaid it depends 17:31
quaid e.g., take notes on changes or just make them? hard to know which is faster/easier 17:31
quaid JohnNguyen: also, most of the docBook XML already exists, so it's much easier to change within that, and learn at the same time. 17:31
jmooney can we modify the XML in any XML editor like (Expression Web)? 17:33
quaid yes 17:33
odin kick him out 17:33
* quaid doesn't know what Expression Web is though :) 17:33
herlo lol 17:33
odin thats microsoft 17:33
G yeah, Microsoft 17:33
quaid ah, ha 17:33
JohnNguyen uh oh 17:33
jmooney lol 17:34
JohnNguyen linux vs MS war 17:34
quaid there have always been people who work on writing while not using Fedora 17:34
jmooney i take it back... 17:34
G jmooney: I edit XML in gedit/vi :) 17:34
quaid but it is actually harder, I think 17:34
quaid G: emacs! 17:34
herlo as long as you have a valid license... 17:34
quaid eh, sure 17:34
G quaid: I've never bothered with emacs 17:34
quaid but then the time spent is not spent learning open source tools 17:34
G herlo: MS has a free version iirc :) 17:35
quaid G: for DocBook it's the bomb 17:35
JohnNguyen herlo: our university gives us a license to use it personally 17:35
quaid the thing is 17:35
herlo there u go 17:35
odin ive use vi 17:35
herlo but I'd recommend vi 17:35
stickster_mtg Go Emacs! 17:35
quaid we don't really want to use non-free tools for this, since that defeats the point 17:35
quaid not the point for Fedora 17:35
quaid but the point for you as students 17:35
odin vi 17:35
JohnNguyen YAY for emacs!!! 17:35
herlo vim, actually 17:35
quaid IMO, Emacs is MUCH better for Docbook 17:35
quaid esp. if you come from Windows 17:35
odin  :wq ! 17:35
quaid the keybindings are better 17:35
stickster_mtg But the nice thing about XML is that you can pretty much edit it with anything. 17:35
quaid (more familiar) 17:36
-!- stickster_mtg is now known as stickster 17:36
quaid and Emacs Docbook mode is great 17:36
quaid yes, can edit with anything 17:36
herlo quaid: you are smoking something. and I want some :) 17:36
JohnNguyen care to share? 17:36
* stickster plugs his fingers in his ears LA LA LA LA 17:36
quaid but again, if the object is "using open source in coursework", then the goal of writing from within Fedora makes sense 17:36
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quaid herlo: you bet, next time I see ya 17:36
quaid herlo: but truly, Emacs + PSGML or XML mode does Docbook validation, tag completion, and stuff 17:37
mdious Eclipse is the new Emacs ;) 17:37
stickster mdious: Does it have a psychiatrist? 17:37
mdious stickster: my point was that they both suck ;) ;) 17:37
G stickster: these are the political discussions that inode was going crook at :) 17:38
stickster haha 17:38
stickster mdious obviously sits on the wrong side of the aisle 17:38
odin k thanks for your help where going to get started now 17:38
stickster oops, I can't tell if that's a statement or a question :-D 17:39
* G thinks that was 'we are' 17:40
odin back to Asgard 17:40
* quaid takes a break to make some coffee 17:40
mdious stickster: right, you've pushed me over the edge. You'll see what I mean in...a week or however long it takes ;) 17:40
mdious mwahahawhawhahwahwahahawhahwahwhawhawhaw 17:40
JohnNguyen wow! 17:40
G mdious: don't say, your working on the next atomic bomb? :P 17:40
stickster All my mail goes to a testing facility first, thankfully. 17:40
G mdious: well documenting it I take it :P 17:41
jmooney quaid we gota go now, thanks for all the help, we'll be in touch 17:41
-!- ianweller_afk is now known as ianweller 17:41
jmtaylor quaid: got time to run through where we are with the beta relnotes? 17:41
JohnNguyen quaid: we will be in touch soon. 17:42
mdious G, no, this is worse :) 17:42
G mdious: worse than the atomic bomb? uh oh 17:42
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-!- jmooney [n=soulspec@129.252.70.40] has quit [] 17:42
G mdious: OH! I know :) 17:42
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