| Sparks
| #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting
| 15:02
|
| Sparks
| Who is here?
| 15:02
|
| * Sparks
| 15:02
|
| * zoglesby is here
| 15:02
|
| * rudi is here
| 15:02
|
| * bcotton is here
| 15:02
|
| * jjmcd is taking a break from spending the state's money
| 15:02
|
| * laubersm found you
| 15:03
|
| Sparks
| Okay... I'd like to discuss the following:
| 15:04
|
| * laubersm goes to refill coffe mug before settling in for this hour of fun
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| 1. How to improve on the F12 RNs
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| 2. What products need to be generated.
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| 3. Using Publican for the RNs
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| 4. Training people to write beats.
| 15:06
|
| Sparks
| laubersm: Hour? We've got this channel all day.
| 15:06
|
| Sparks
| Anything else we need to discuss?
| 15:07
|
| * zoglesby get coffe IV
| 15:07
|
| * laubersm found only dregs and was too lazy to make more - but returned to this fun anyways
| 15:07
|
| jjmcd
| Probably we should discudd who the audience is before attempting to answer those questions
| 15:08
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: yes
| 15:08
|
| jjmcd
| sheesh the typing
| 15:08
|
| Sparks
| anything else?
| 15:08
|
| rudi
| Packaging
| 15:09
|
| rudi
| As in, when and what
| 15:09
|
| jjmcd
| Influenced by 2 of course
| 15:09
|
| rudi
| Yeah
| 15:09
|
| Sparks
| Okay, let's get started...
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| #topic Audience
| 15:10
|
| jjmcd
| I see 3
| 15:10
|
| jjmcd
| People who just installed and want to know what's new
| 15:10
|
| jjmcd
| People preparing to install
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| People looking for a new feature or fixed bug
| 15:11
|
| Sparks
| Wouldn't the second one be the IG?
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| Not necessarily
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| For example, database changes almost always require you to do something before install
| 15:11
|
| Sparks
| errr... shouldn't it be included in the IG
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| those won't be in the IG
| 15:11
|
| Sparks
| True
| 15:12
|
| Sparks
| So more of an upgrade guide
| 15:12
|
| zoglesby
| I think there is one more
| 15:12
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah, almost anything that needs a backup or something before upgrade needs to be captured
| 15:12
|
| zoglesby
| People that hear about Fedora and are trying to see what it has to offer
| 15:12
|
| zoglesby
| I often look at release notes when I hear about a new distro
| 15:13
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah, probably looking for more detail than the announcement
| 15:13
|
| Sparks
| Okay, so I see this as:
| 15:13
|
| Sparks
| The BIG RNs goes to the third group.
| 15:14
|
| Sparks
| A "Welcome to Fedora ##" for the last
| 15:14
|
| Sparks
| The "pretty" RN (from Marketing) for the first
| 15:14
|
| jjmcd
| I think welcome can also address the first group in an introductory way
| 15:14
|
| Sparks
| yes
| 15:14
|
| jjmcd
| good point. Perhaps marketing should do the welcome to fedora xx
| 15:15
|
| Sparks
| definitely
| 15:15
|
| Sparks
| So we are already working on the "pretty" version with Marketing.
| 15:17
|
| Sparks
| And we currently have the BIG RNs
| 15:17
|
| laubersm
| I generally find most "users" - new or upgrading - think of wiki and IG and UG as resources more than the RN - they tend to think Release Notes are for the geeks
| 15:17
|
| Sparks
| So we need to figure out the Upgrade guide
| 15:17
|
| laubersm
| The RN can include links to those general resources - and should
| 15:17
|
| laubersm
| UG = users guide
| 15:18
|
| Sparks
| agreed
| 15:18
|
| laubersm
| do we really need a separate upgrade guide? can't it be in the IG?
| 15:18
|
| jjmcd
| So the beat writers will need to be upgrade writers too, or at least help guide the upgrade writers
| 15:18
|
| jjmcd
| laubersm, I doubt if the experienced user will look at the install guide
| 15:18
|
| Sparks
| Well, I think the IG should have information on upgrading
| 15:18
|
| rudi
| FWIW, the IG already details several different upgrade paths
| 15:19
|
| laubersm
| jjmcd, I was thinking more of the reminders of good general practices - RN would still be for the "this time it is bar than needs to be reconfigured instead of foo"
| 15:19
|
| jjmcd
| But does it include things like "save your qle database to sql before upgrading and reimport after the upgrade"?
| 15:19
|
| jjmcd
| Yes, I don't see the upgrade guide as including all the version specific details
| 15:20
|
| rudi
| jjmcd -- no; and I think that's probably out of scope
| 15:20
|
| laubersm
| jjmcd, if that is an everytime you upgrade the db than it should be in a general guide and not repeated with every RN
| 15:20
|
| Sparks
| So beat writers talk about new stuff and also issues to upgrading
| 15:21
|
| jjmcd
| Yes, but most of the time you don't need to, seems like every third or fourth time with MYSQL, Postgres, and some others there are special things to do
| 15:21
|
| jjmcd
| But I agree, if its every time, then the upgrade guide
| 15:21
|
| jjmcd
| I see beat writers as listing all changes, but providing prose for "important" changes and upgrade issues
| 15:22
|
| jjmcd
| That way the change that you care about, but I don't see as important, is at least noted
| 15:23
|
| laubersm
| remind me - who makes up the beat writers? some are docs team members but aren't some from other teams that just help with RN?
| 15:23
|
| jjmcd
| Mostly docs team members but not always
| 15:24
|
| jjmcd
| We generally seem to do better with team members
| 15:24
|
| laubersm
| I ask because maybe docs members - or people more familiar with the many guides - should be reviewing to make sure RN stays trim and important stuff gets rediurected to the guides
| 15:24
|
| laubersm
| it seems to me that we just haven't had time for that in the past -
| 15:24
|
| laubersm
| even though the intent has been good
| 15:25
|
| * laubersm prefers reviewing to writing by the way
| 15:25
|
| jjmcd
| I'm hoping to have more lists and less prose this time around
| 15:25
|
| jjmcd
| Should give us more opportunity to review
| 15:25
|
| jjmcd
| And less work for translators
| 15:26
|
| laubersm
| and will the review period be as free form as last time or will it be a bullet on the docs team schedule (or in a wiki chart)?
| 15:26
|
| jjmcd
| I hope to take poelcat's schedule and add in some docs and l10n bullets
| 15:27
|
| laubersm
| cool.
| 15:27
|
| jjmcd
| We never got the l10n notifications in there and we need that
| 15:27
|
| Sparks
| Yeah, I think we need to make sure we get these beats done well ahead of time
| 15:27
|
| laubersm
| I think if beat writers trade reviewing it will help the overall flow of all the RNs as well - and catch more duplication (or need for general docs tips)
| 15:28
|
| Sparks
| Okay... I don't want to drag this meeting out... :)
| 15:28
|
| Sparks
| laubersm: I agree.
| 15:29
|
| Sparks
| So can we say that three "RNs" will make this work?
| 15:29
|
| jjmcd
| Most of that has to do with communications with other teams. Looking at the F11 beats, the only writer who wasn't a docs member at all was Chitlesh, although Jens I think is in the group, but not at the meetings etc
| 15:29
|
| jjmcd
| what three?
| 15:29
|
| Sparks
| 1) Big RNs
| 15:29
|
| zoglesby
| I think we had so much duplicate stuff last time cause on the last day 3 of of were writing all the stuf that didnt get done
| 15:29
|
| laubersm
| How are we naming these so they catch the correct audience?
| 15:29
|
| Sparks
| 2) "Pretty RN"
| 15:30
|
| Sparks
| 3) Upgrade "Guide"
| 15:30
|
| jjmcd
| You don't see the "pretty RN" as chapter one of big rn?
| 15:30
|
| Sparks
| The "Pretty RN" will be very graphical
| 15:30
|
| jjmcd
| ahhh good
| 15:30
|
| Sparks
| kind of like a "newsletter"
| 15:30
|
| Sparks
| a flyer
| 15:30
|
| jjmcd
| sounds like a bitch to translate
| 15:31
|
| jjmcd
| but we did it with IG if I recall
| 15:31
|
| rudi
| Not as long as people are careful to keep text out of the graphics
| 15:31
|
| rudi
| And rely on captions, or callouts
| 15:31
|
| rudi
| And yeah, the IG has about 70 images in each of about 35 localisations
| 15:32
|
| Sparks
| So are we good with those three?
| 15:32
|
| jjmcd
| question fro rudi
| 15:32
|
| jjmcd
| did you do those with dot or something so that you could translate easily?
| 15:33
|
| rudi
| Yeah, where needed.
| 15:33
|
| jjmcd
| cool
| 15:33
|
| jjmcd
| I like it Sparks
| 15:33
|
| Sparks
| #idea Three "RN" guides: big RN, "pretty" RN, and Upgrade Guide
| 15:34
|
| rudi
| jjmcd -- http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/s1-guimode-textinterface-x86.html
| 15:34
|
| Sparks
| Okay to move on?
| 15:35
|
| rudi
| Do we have any specific plan to keep down the bigness of the big RN?
| 15:35
|
| jjmcd
| tables
| 15:35
|
| rudi
| Hmmm -- tables might get L10N hating us for whole new reasons :)
| 15:36
|
| zoglesby
| I think that one of the big issues for 11 was the amount of info trans had to deal with if we add 2 more we need to cut some down
| 15:36
|
| jjmcd
| Nothing in the tables to translate
| 15:36
|
| rudi
| Oh OK.
| 15:36
|
| rudi
| Just that elements in lists and tables are very challenging
| 15:37
|
| jjmcd
| Jus package name, old version, new version link
| 15:37
|
| jjmcd
| Specifically intended to not need translation
| 15:37
|
| zoglesby
| lol
| 15:37
|
| rudi
| Without any description of what actually changed?
| 15:37
|
| zoglesby
| I think we can automate that to,
| 15:37
|
| jjmcd
| zoglesby, a lot of the prose was just fluff. Already automated ;-)
| 15:38
|
| jjmcd
| rudi, only "important" changes
| 15:38
|
| rudi
| OK
| 15:38
|
| jjmcd
| https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Fedora_12_tables
| 15:38
|
| jjmcd
| Not organized by beats, and needs a lot of editing
| 15:39
|
| rudi
| sure, but yeah, I get the picture now
| 15:39
|
| zoglesby
| why do we have meetings again? Why not force jjmcd to 6S everything for us
| 15:39
|
| Sparks
| +1
| 15:40
|
| jjmcd
| We still need ppl who can reed and spel gud
| 15:40
|
| laubersm
| zodbot, because last time he built and rpm and left town and it had to be redone before he returned
| 15:40
|
| laubersm
| arg... that was for zoglesby
| 15:40
|
| zoglesby
| this is more of a fedora change log then release notes
| 15:40
|
| * laubersm relies on tab complete too much without looking
| 15:41
|
| jjmcd
| Well, we do need the change log. In my view, we still need prose for "important" changes, but this way someone looking for a feature or bugfix can see if it is there
| 15:41
|
| zoglesby
| laubersm: ah yes that was a good day
| 15:41
|
| jjmcd
| ANd that list is long because it is against rawhide. As we close in on release it will get shorter
| 15:42
|
| rudi
| zoglesby; true to some extent, but then, there was a lot of stuff in previous RNs that was basically "Package X has been upgraded from version 1.7 to 1.9"
| 15:42
|
| zoglesby
| jjmcd: very true, it takes care of one group
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| Yes, and the prose takes care of the others
| 15:42
|
| zoglesby
| ok
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| rudi, and that prose only provided useless work for translators
| 15:42
|
| rudi
| Yep.
| 15:43
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Are you reviewig bug reports for stuff to go into the RN?
| 15:43
|
| jjmcd
| Yes, hit a bunch last week
| 15:43
|
| laubersm
| How about a para on how to use a tool to find that list and not include it at all :)
| 15:43
|
| jjmcd
| One "content" bug I still needs more research
| 15:43
|
| * laubersm thinks such lists reinvent the wheel and will always miss something
| 15:44
|
| jjmcd
| And the remaining RN bugs either need a lot of work or need to wait for something else
| 15:44
|
| zoglesby
| put a link to the fedora community site
| 15:44
|
| jjmcd
| laubersm, probably not a bad idea
| 15:44
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Are people actually flagging items to be included in the RNs?
| 15:45
|
| zoglesby
| but there went your 0 trans :P
| 15:45
|
| jjmcd
| Sparks, generally no
| 15:45
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Maybe we should encourage that and then query that.
| 15:45
|
| jjmcd
| I wonder how good an idea that is actually
| 15:45
|
| jjmcd
| For the person working on a package, any change is "important"
| 15:45
|
| jjmcd
| Although when you have someone like Chitlesh or Jens who sees the bigger picture, it is great when they can work on the prose
| 15:46
|
| laubersm
| jjmcd, will the list at least be at the end - ie "other updates include:" so I don't have to scroll through it to get to the prose?
| 15:46
|
| jjmcd
| yes, that was my view - but by beat
| 15:47
|
| jjmcd
| So you get the database prose, then the list
| 15:47
|
| laubersm
| ok
| 15:47
|
| jjmcd
| Problem is, the yum groups are all screwed up, so organizing the list by beat is going to be a bit of a job
| 15:47
|
| jjmcd
| That drafts page is by yum group
| 15:48
|
| jjmcd
| But as you said, perhaps we make a page that gets updated nightly for the list, or make the tool easy enough for people to use
| 15:50
|
| jjmcd
| That way you can see what changed from F11 to NOW rather than to the initial release of 12
| 15:51
|
| zoglesby
| +1
| 15:51
|
| jjmcd
| is there a php interface to sqlite?
| 15:52
|
| * Sparks notes nine minutes left
| 15:53
|
| jjmcd
| Still have most agenda items left
| 15:53
|
| Sparks
| Yes
| 15:53
|
| jjmcd
| yes sqlite or yes agenda?
| 15:54
|
| Sparks
| yes agenda
| 15:54
|
| jjmcd
| What is the issue with Publican? I thought we had that answered.
| 15:55
|
| Sparks
| Well... If you can do what you need to do then I'm fine.
| 15:55
|
| Sparks
| I can't get the SRPMs to generate in koji. They fail
| 15:55
|
| * jjmcd has no issue with Publican
| 15:55
|
| rudi
| The Beta for Publican 1.0 should be announced soon now
| 15:55
|
| jjmcd
| I've been manually building the SRPM, if Publican can do it right, great, but making the RPM isn't a biggie
| 15:56
|
| rudi
| I can't help with the SRPMs, but until 1.0 appears, we now have hackish fixes to most of the glitches in 0.44 up on the wiki
| 15:57
|
| Sparks
| Well, hopefully the "new" version of Publican will fix the problems.
| 15:57
|
| jjmcd
| If we still include N docs in the RN RPM it doesn't matter anyway
| 15:57
|
| zoglesby
| rudi: the fedora wiki or publican wiki?
| 15:57
|
| rudi
| Fedora wiki
| 15:57
|
| laubersm
| Even if there are glitches with the building the SRPM, I have no issues with publican - all items should be created with publican
| 15:58
|
| rudi
| https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publican#Publican_on_Fedora_Tips_and_Tweaks
| 15:58
|
| * laubersm did not like the old toolchain adventure
| 15:58
|
| * jjmcd agrees with laubersm
| 15:58
|
| jjmcd
| I'm afraid we need at least another meeting to answer the "what products" question though
| 15:59
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: That's cool. Is this time good with everyone?
| 15:59
|
| * Sparks notes that it is awfully late/early for rudi
| 15:59
|
| * rudi isn't crazy about it, but will turn up with enough warning :)
| 15:59
|
| jjmcd
| This time on Thursday is suboptimal but doable
| 15:59
|
| rudi
| 2AM here in the middle of an Australian winter
| 16:00
|
| zoglesby
| rudi: thats me every docs meeting!
| 16:00
|
| zoglesby
| well not the winter part
| 16:00
|
| rudi
| :D
| 16:00
|
| * jjmcd will probably be out of town the next few Wednesdays, tho, so Thursday is better than Wednesday
| 16:01
|
| zoglesby
| and I only wish I was in Australian
| 16:01
|
| laubersm
| I will have a harder time next week - afternoon would be better when students are more likely to be doing labs instead of listening to me talk....
| 16:01
|
| zoglesby
| Sparks: any time is good with me, if I have to I will use my phone and not talk so much
| 16:01
|
| * laubersm is EDT when refering to afternoon
| 16:02
|
| * Sparks is EDT, too
| 16:02
|
| jjmcd
| If you move to 2000Z you are starting to get into a semi-sensible morning time for rudi
| 16:02
|
| * Sparks notes 2000z is drive time for us in EDT
| 16:03
|
| rudi
| Don't worry about me; I'm happy to work around you guys
| 16:03
|
| Sparks
| rudi: Time and a half at 1A?
| 16:03
|
| rudi
| I wish! :)
| 16:04
|
| zoglesby
| lol
| 16:04
|
| Sparks
| I miss shift-differential
| 16:04
|
| jjmcd
| Not me ... back when I got it, I was making $1.82 an hour
| 16:04
|
| Sparks
| Okay, anything else we need to discuss today?
| 16:05
|
| zoglesby
| I missing getting paid for the amount of time I work not working 80 hour weeks and getting the same as everyone else working 40
| 16:05
|
| rudi
| Not discuss, but a thought to leave with people that we should perhaps try to get a package into rawhide rooner rather than later
| 16:06
|
| Sparks
| I agree
| 16:06
|
| zoglesby
| indeed
| 16:06
|
| laubersm
| +1
| 16:07
|
| rudi
| ECS will be able to help out with some of the heavy lifting content-wise, but not so much with the packaging
| 16:07
|
| rudi
| (and hopefully there will be less heavy lifting this time round anyway)
| 16:07
|
| Sparks
| Okay, anything else?
| 16:08
|
| Sparks
| Okay, while we didn't get through everything we did have a good discussion.
| 16:08
|
| Sparks
| Good ideas
| 16:08
|
| Sparks
| Okay, thanks for coming!
| 16:10
|
| Sparks
| #endmeeting
| 16:10
|
