Meeting:Release Notes IRC log 20090723

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Sparks #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting 15:02
Sparks Who is here? 15:02
* Sparks 15:02
* zoglesby is here 15:02
* rudi is here 15:02
* bcotton is here 15:02
* jjmcd is taking a break from spending the state's money 15:02
* laubersm found you 15:03
Sparks Okay... I'd like to discuss the following: 15:04
* laubersm goes to refill coffe mug before settling in for this hour of fun 15:05
Sparks 1. How to improve on the F12 RNs 15:05
Sparks 2. What products need to be generated. 15:05
Sparks 3. Using Publican for the RNs 15:05
Sparks 4. Training people to write beats. 15:06
Sparks laubersm: Hour? We've got this channel all day. 15:06
Sparks Anything else we need to discuss? 15:07
* zoglesby get coffe IV 15:07
* laubersm found only dregs and was too lazy to make more - but returned to this fun anyways 15:07
jjmcd Probably we should discudd who the audience is before attempting to answer those questions 15:08
Sparks jjmcd: yes 15:08
jjmcd sheesh the typing 15:08
Sparks anything else? 15:08
rudi Packaging 15:09
rudi As in, when and what 15:09
jjmcd Influenced by 2 of course 15:09
rudi Yeah 15:09
Sparks Okay, let's get started... 15:10
Sparks #topic Audience 15:10
jjmcd I see 3 15:10
jjmcd People who just installed and want to know what's new 15:10
jjmcd People preparing to install 15:11
jjmcd People looking for a new feature or fixed bug 15:11
Sparks Wouldn't the second one be the IG? 15:11
jjmcd Not necessarily 15:11
jjmcd For example, database changes almost always require you to do something before install 15:11
Sparks errr... shouldn't it be included in the IG 15:11
jjmcd those won't be in the IG 15:11
Sparks True 15:12
Sparks So more of an upgrade guide 15:12
zoglesby I think there is one more 15:12
jjmcd Yeah, almost anything that needs a backup or something before upgrade needs to be captured 15:12
zoglesby People that hear about Fedora and are trying to see what it has to offer 15:12
zoglesby I often look at release notes when I hear about a new distro 15:13
jjmcd Yeah, probably looking for more detail than the announcement 15:13
Sparks Okay, so I see this as: 15:13
Sparks The BIG RNs goes to the third group. 15:14
Sparks A "Welcome to Fedora ##" for the last 15:14
Sparks The "pretty" RN (from Marketing) for the first 15:14
jjmcd I think welcome can also address the first group in an introductory way 15:14
Sparks yes 15:14
jjmcd good point. Perhaps marketing should do the welcome to fedora xx 15:15
Sparks definitely 15:15
Sparks So we are already working on the "pretty" version with Marketing. 15:17
Sparks And we currently have the BIG RNs 15:17
laubersm I generally find most "users" - new or upgrading - think of wiki and IG and UG as resources more than the RN - they tend to think Release Notes are for the geeks 15:17
Sparks So we need to figure out the Upgrade guide 15:17
laubersm The RN can include links to those general resources - and should 15:17
laubersm UG = users guide 15:18
Sparks agreed 15:18
laubersm do we really need a separate upgrade guide? can't it be in the IG? 15:18
jjmcd So the beat writers will need to be upgrade writers too, or at least help guide the upgrade writers 15:18
jjmcd laubersm, I doubt if the experienced user will look at the install guide 15:18
Sparks Well, I think the IG should have information on upgrading 15:18
rudi FWIW, the IG already details several different upgrade paths 15:19
laubersm jjmcd, I was thinking more of the reminders of good general practices - RN would still be for the "this time it is bar than needs to be reconfigured instead of foo" 15:19
jjmcd But does it include things like "save your qle database to sql before upgrading and reimport after the upgrade"? 15:19
jjmcd Yes, I don't see the upgrade guide as including all the version specific details 15:20
rudi jjmcd -- no; and I think that's probably out of scope 15:20
laubersm jjmcd, if that is an everytime you upgrade the db than it should be in a general guide and not repeated with every RN 15:20
Sparks So beat writers talk about new stuff and also issues to upgrading 15:21
jjmcd Yes, but most of the time you don't need to, seems like every third or fourth time with MYSQL, Postgres, and some others there are special things to do 15:21
jjmcd But I agree, if its every time, then the upgrade guide 15:21
jjmcd I see beat writers as listing all changes, but providing prose for "important" changes and upgrade issues 15:22
jjmcd That way the change that you care about, but I don't see as important, is at least noted 15:23
laubersm remind me - who makes up the beat writers? some are docs team members but aren't some from other teams that just help with RN? 15:23
jjmcd Mostly docs team members but not always 15:24
jjmcd We generally seem to do better with team members 15:24
laubersm I ask because maybe docs members - or people more familiar with the many guides - should be reviewing to make sure RN stays trim and important stuff gets rediurected to the guides 15:24
laubersm it seems to me that we just haven't had time for that in the past - 15:24
laubersm even though the intent has been good 15:25
* laubersm prefers reviewing to writing by the way 15:25
jjmcd I'm hoping to have more lists and less prose this time around 15:25
jjmcd Should give us more opportunity to review 15:25
jjmcd And less work for translators 15:26
laubersm and will the review period be as free form as last time or will it be a bullet on the docs team schedule (or in a wiki chart)? 15:26
jjmcd I hope to take poelcat's schedule and add in some docs and l10n bullets 15:27
laubersm cool. 15:27
jjmcd We never got the l10n notifications in there and we need that 15:27
Sparks Yeah, I think we need to make sure we get these beats done well ahead of time 15:27
laubersm I think if beat writers trade reviewing it will help the overall flow of all the RNs as well - and catch more duplication (or need for general docs tips) 15:28
Sparks Okay... I don't want to drag this meeting out...  :) 15:28
Sparks laubersm: I agree. 15:29
Sparks So can we say that three "RNs" will make this work? 15:29
jjmcd Most of that has to do with communications with other teams. Looking at the F11 beats, the only writer who wasn't a docs member at all was Chitlesh, although Jens I think is in the group, but not at the meetings etc 15:29
jjmcd what three? 15:29
Sparks 1) Big RNs 15:29
zoglesby I think we had so much duplicate stuff last time cause on the last day 3 of of were writing all the stuf that didnt get done 15:29
laubersm How are we naming these so they catch the correct audience? 15:29
Sparks 2) "Pretty RN" 15:30
Sparks 3) Upgrade "Guide" 15:30
jjmcd You don't see the "pretty RN" as chapter one of big rn? 15:30
Sparks The "Pretty RN" will be very graphical 15:30
jjmcd ahhh good 15:30
Sparks kind of like a "newsletter" 15:30
Sparks a flyer 15:30
jjmcd sounds like a bitch to translate 15:31
jjmcd but we did it with IG if I recall 15:31
rudi Not as long as people are careful to keep text out of the graphics 15:31
rudi And rely on captions, or callouts 15:31
rudi And yeah, the IG has about 70 images in each of about 35 localisations 15:32
Sparks So are we good with those three? 15:32
jjmcd question fro rudi 15:32
jjmcd did you do those with dot or something so that you could translate easily? 15:33
rudi Yeah, where needed. 15:33
jjmcd cool 15:33
jjmcd I like it Sparks 15:33
Sparks #idea Three "RN" guides: big RN, "pretty" RN, and Upgrade Guide 15:34
rudi jjmcd -- http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/s1-guimode-textinterface-x86.html 15:34
Sparks Okay to move on? 15:35
rudi Do we have any specific plan to keep down the bigness of the big RN? 15:35
jjmcd tables 15:35
rudi Hmmm -- tables might get L10N hating us for whole new reasons :) 15:36
zoglesby I think that one of the big issues for 11 was the amount of info trans had to deal with if we add 2 more we need to cut some down 15:36
jjmcd Nothing in the tables to translate 15:36
rudi Oh OK. 15:36
rudi Just that elements in lists and tables are very challenging 15:37
jjmcd Jus package name, old version, new version link 15:37
jjmcd Specifically intended to not need translation 15:37
zoglesby lol 15:37
rudi Without any description of what actually changed? 15:37
zoglesby I think we can automate that to, 15:37
jjmcd zoglesby, a lot of the prose was just fluff. Already automated ;-) 15:38
jjmcd rudi, only "important" changes 15:38
rudi OK 15:38
jjmcd https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Fedora_12_tables 15:38
jjmcd Not organized by beats, and needs a lot of editing 15:39
rudi sure, but yeah, I get the picture now 15:39
zoglesby why do we have meetings again? Why not force jjmcd to 6S everything for us 15:39
Sparks +1 15:40
jjmcd We still need ppl who can reed and spel gud 15:40
laubersm zodbot, because last time he built and rpm and left town and it had to be redone before he returned 15:40
laubersm arg... that was for zoglesby 15:40
zoglesby this is more of a fedora change log then release notes 15:40
* laubersm relies on tab complete too much without looking 15:41
jjmcd Well, we do need the change log. In my view, we still need prose for "important" changes, but this way someone looking for a feature or bugfix can see if it is there 15:41
zoglesby laubersm: ah yes that was a good day 15:41
jjmcd ANd that list is long because it is against rawhide. As we close in on release it will get shorter 15:42
rudi zoglesby; true to some extent, but then, there was a lot of stuff in previous RNs that was basically "Package X has been upgraded from version 1.7 to 1.9" 15:42
zoglesby jjmcd: very true, it takes care of one group 15:42
jjmcd Yes, and the prose takes care of the others 15:42
zoglesby ok 15:42
jjmcd rudi, and that prose only provided useless work for translators 15:42
rudi Yep. 15:43
Sparks jjmcd: Are you reviewig bug reports for stuff to go into the RN? 15:43
jjmcd Yes, hit a bunch last week 15:43
laubersm How about a para on how to use a tool to find that list and not include it at all :) 15:43
jjmcd One "content" bug I still needs more research 15:43
* laubersm thinks such lists reinvent the wheel and will always miss something 15:44
jjmcd And the remaining RN bugs either need a lot of work or need to wait for something else 15:44
zoglesby put a link to the fedora community site 15:44
jjmcd laubersm, probably not a bad idea 15:44
Sparks jjmcd: Are people actually flagging items to be included in the RNs? 15:45
zoglesby but there went your 0 trans :P 15:45
jjmcd Sparks, generally no 15:45
Sparks jjmcd: Maybe we should encourage that and then query that. 15:45
jjmcd I wonder how good an idea that is actually 15:45
jjmcd For the person working on a package, any change is "important" 15:45
jjmcd Although when you have someone like Chitlesh or Jens who sees the bigger picture, it is great when they can work on the prose 15:46
laubersm jjmcd, will the list at least be at the end - ie "other updates include:" so I don't have to scroll through it to get to the prose? 15:46
jjmcd yes, that was my view - but by beat 15:47
jjmcd So you get the database prose, then the list 15:47
laubersm ok 15:47
jjmcd Problem is, the yum groups are all screwed up, so organizing the list by beat is going to be a bit of a job 15:47
jjmcd That drafts page is by yum group 15:48
jjmcd But as you said, perhaps we make a page that gets updated nightly for the list, or make the tool easy enough for people to use 15:50
jjmcd That way you can see what changed from F11 to NOW rather than to the initial release of 12 15:51
zoglesby +1 15:51
jjmcd is there a php interface to sqlite? 15:52
* Sparks notes nine minutes left 15:53
jjmcd Still have most agenda items left 15:53
Sparks Yes 15:53
jjmcd yes sqlite or yes agenda? 15:54
Sparks yes agenda 15:54
jjmcd What is the issue with Publican? I thought we had that answered. 15:55
Sparks Well... If you can do what you need to do then I'm fine. 15:55
Sparks I can't get the SRPMs to generate in koji. They fail 15:55
* jjmcd has no issue with Publican 15:55
rudi The Beta for Publican 1.0 should be announced soon now 15:55
jjmcd I've been manually building the SRPM, if Publican can do it right, great, but making the RPM isn't a biggie 15:56
rudi I can't help with the SRPMs, but until 1.0 appears, we now have hackish fixes to most of the glitches in 0.44 up on the wiki 15:57
Sparks Well, hopefully the "new" version of Publican will fix the problems. 15:57
jjmcd If we still include N docs in the RN RPM it doesn't matter anyway 15:57
zoglesby rudi: the fedora wiki or publican wiki? 15:57
rudi Fedora wiki 15:57
laubersm Even if there are glitches with the building the SRPM, I have no issues with publican - all items should be created with publican 15:58
rudi https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publican#Publican_on_Fedora_Tips_and_Tweaks 15:58
* laubersm did not like the old toolchain adventure 15:58
* jjmcd agrees with laubersm 15:58
jjmcd I'm afraid we need at least another meeting to answer the "what products" question though 15:59
Sparks jjmcd: That's cool. Is this time good with everyone? 15:59
* Sparks notes that it is awfully late/early for rudi 15:59
* rudi isn't crazy about it, but will turn up with enough warning :) 15:59
jjmcd This time on Thursday is suboptimal but doable 15:59
rudi 2AM here in the middle of an Australian winter 16:00
zoglesby rudi: thats me every docs meeting! 16:00
zoglesby well not the winter part 16:00
rudi  :D 16:00
* jjmcd will probably be out of town the next few Wednesdays, tho, so Thursday is better than Wednesday 16:01
zoglesby and I only wish I was in Australian 16:01
laubersm I will have a harder time next week - afternoon would be better when students are more likely to be doing labs instead of listening to me talk.... 16:01
zoglesby Sparks: any time is good with me, if I have to I will use my phone and not talk so much 16:01
* laubersm is EDT when refering to afternoon 16:02
* Sparks is EDT, too 16:02
jjmcd If you move to 2000Z you are starting to get into a semi-sensible morning time for rudi 16:02
* Sparks notes 2000z is drive time for us in EDT 16:03
rudi Don't worry about me; I'm happy to work around you guys 16:03
Sparks rudi: Time and a half at 1A? 16:03
rudi I wish! :) 16:04
zoglesby lol 16:04
Sparks I miss shift-differential 16:04
jjmcd Not me ... back when I got it, I was making $1.82 an hour 16:04
Sparks Okay, anything else we need to discuss today? 16:05
zoglesby I missing getting paid for the amount of time I work not working 80 hour weeks and getting the same as everyone else working 40 16:05
rudi Not discuss, but a thought to leave with people that we should perhaps try to get a package into rawhide rooner rather than later 16:06
Sparks I agree 16:06
zoglesby indeed 16:06
laubersm +1 16:07
rudi ECS will be able to help out with some of the heavy lifting content-wise, but not so much with the packaging 16:07
rudi (and hopefully there will be less heavy lifting this time round anyway) 16:07
Sparks Okay, anything else? 16:08
Sparks Okay, while we didn't get through everything we did have a good discussion. 16:08
Sparks Good ideas 16:08
Sparks Okay, thanks for coming! 16:10
Sparks #endmeeting 16:10