Meeting:Release Notes IRC log 20090806

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Sparks #startmeeting Docs Project Release Notes Meeting 15:01
Sparks #topic Roll Call 15:01
* Sparks 15:01
* jjmcd . 15:01
jjmcd I thought zack was gonna be here, don't know who else 15:03
* Sparks wonders if rudi fell asleep 15:03
jjmcd It is the middle of the night there, 15:04
jjmcd Maybe we'll just make a decision and move on 15:05
Sparks WORKSFORME 15:05
* Sparks was also thinking that we had to use -1 room because the regular meeting room was occupied. 15:05
Sparks Oh well... 15:05
Sparks #topic Old Business 15:05
Sparks jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project 15:06
Sparks I think this was for "homepage"? 15:06
jjmcd identified browsers, haven't contqacted developers 15:06
Sparks Which browsers were affected? Was it just Lynx? 15:06
jjmcd https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Browsers 15:07
jjmcd Yes, just lynx 15:07
jjmcd Pretty inconsistent behavior from browser to browser, though 15:07
Sparks Cool. That should be easy. 15:07
Sparks Ya... What is the proposed fix? 15:07
jjmcd Probably an internal message like the other browsers would make sense 15:08
Sparks Ok 15:08
Sparks So we are depreciating homepage 15:08
jjmcd I can't see where it makes sense to keep it unless lynx wants to include it in their rpm 15:09
jjmcd But we should probably send a note to devel-list first 15:09
Sparks Ya 15:09
jjmcd So many things have embedded browsers who knows 15:09
Sparks #action jjmcd to contact lynx developers about homepage 15:10
Sparks #action jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage 15:10
Sparks anything else? 15:10
jjmcd I think that takes care of homepage, now, what else wants to be in the rpm 15:10
Sparks jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs 15:11
Sparks ^^^ The other item from last week 15:11
jjmcd oh yeah, forgot that one 15:11
Sparks next week? 15:11
jjmcd I was more concerned about the whole text, html, xml think 15:11
jjmcd thing 15:11
jjmcd Should we make all these consistent? 15:12
jjmcd Should we drop the html which nobody can find anyway? 15:12
Sparks prolly 15:12
Sparks we should simplify everything 15:12
Sparks don't ship stuff that we don't need in formats no one uses 15:12
jjmcd Personally, I would like to see everything in yelp, nice consistent appearance, easy to find 15:13
Sparks Does that work in KDE and other desktop environments? 15:13
jjmcd there is a scrollkeeper tab in kde help, but it doesn't seem to do anything 15:13
jjmcd but then I am having trouble testing kde 15:13
* Sparks should probably install KDE on his box 15:13
jjmcd can't boot a stick, and my vm install seems weird 15:14
jjmcd I have kde as another wm, but that isn't the same as having a pure kde box 15:14
Sparks Ya 15:14
zoglesby Sorry I am late 15:14
jjmcd hi zach 15:14
jjmcd lessee -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Browsers 15:15
jjmcd I didn't contact the lynx guys yet 15:15
jjmcd zoglesby, do you us kde? 15:15
zoglesby no 15:16
zoglesby xmonad and sometimes gnome 15:16
jjmcd how does yelp work for you? 15:16
Sparks zoglesby: You can test xmonad for us, then 15:16
zoglesby test what? yelp? 15:16
jjmcd Trying to decide whether we can get away with release notes in xml only 15:17
jjmcd We do have a bug, tho, that makes no sense to me. Changelog doesn't show in yelp 15:17
Sparks doesn't Publican put the changelog inside the document? 15:19
jjmcd yes 15:19
jjmcd that why it makes no sense 15:19
Sparks just point to it and move on 15:19
Sparks IMO 15:19
jjmcd yeah, that one isn't high on my list 15:19
jjmcd so we have release notes, about fedora, readme, readme burning isos and readme live image all in yelp 15:20
jjmcd Whether separate RPMs tbd 15:20
Sparks Well... 15:20
Sparks let's address that now... 15:20
Sparks #topic What to include in the RN RPM 15:21
Sparks So there is... 15:21
Sparks About Fedora, readme, readme burning isos, and readme live image 15:21
jjmcd OK, I had readme accessibility as a separate topic in my mind, but we should address that, too 15:21
Sparks I think the last two shouldn't be distributed 15:21
Sparks I think we address those two topics in various guides and on the wiki 15:22
jjmcd because you already know if you got there 15:22
Sparks ya 15:22
jjmcd I can buy that 15:22
Sparks I say we remove those completely 15:22
jjmcd No complaints from this quarter 15:22
Sparks zoglesby: ? 15:23
zoglesby I agree 15:23
Sparks Okay. What is the readme? 15:23
jjmcd ok a little less clutter 15:23
jjmcd what about accessibility? 15:23
zoglesby no point in telling a user how to burn a cd if its in the iso 15:23
zoglesby they cant see it until after they burn it 15:23
Sparks jjmcd: What is in the accessibility document? 15:24
jjmcd dunno 15:24
jjmcd it went missing around 9 or 10 15:24
jjmcd wait, I have an f8 box 15:25
Sparks I think that should probably be a guide. 15:25
* Sparks assumes it talks about using Fedora with screen readers and such 15:25
zoglesby that would be my guess 15:25
jjmcd Oh yeah, it talks about legal requirements and such 15:26
jjmcd lists a boatload of solutions 15:26
Sparks Can you send that to me? 15:26
jjmcd should be in git 15:26
jjmcd looking 15:27
* Sparks doesn't see it 15:27
jjmcd I don't either ... K, I'll send it. Take some dancing tho, its on my firewall which is mostly devoid of software 15:28
Sparks http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/release-notes/devel/README-Accessibility?root=docs&view=c 15:29
Sparks jjmcd: Is that it? 15:29
jjmcd I think so 15:29
jjmcd Lets recap 15:29
jjmcd yelp contains RNs, about-fedora, readme and readme-accessibility 15:29
jjmcd # of RPMs tbd 15:30
jjmcd We will somehow check that KDE can use 15:30
jjmcd That looks familiar 15:31
zoglesby I will check xmonad and evilwm 15:31
Sparks #idea We individualize all the packages and not ship them together. 15:31
jjmcd Perhaps we have an RN-gnome and RN-kde? 15:31
Sparks I think that's just more work 15:32
jjmcd I wonder whether that section 508 stuff has been expanded since 2000 15:33
* Sparks summons Kevin_Kofler to ask about KDE stuff 15:33
Sparks jjmcd: I used to do some of the accessibility stuff for East Carolina University 15:34
jjmcd Sparks, yeah, probably right. If we can make yelp/scrollkeeper work in kde we should be happy with that 15:34
Sparks I want to Publicanize that document and make it a guide 15:34
jjmcd Will you make a guide rpm for yelp? 15:34
Sparks Well... I can make it a package and make it available in the repo. 15:36
* Sparks isn't sure how things get installed by default 15:36
Sparks But I think it might be helpful to have that information available BEFORE installing 15:36
jjmcd Well, if I installed selinux-guide it would be nice to see it in yelp with the rest of the docs 15:36
Sparks it doesn't? 15:37
jjmcd No, the guides are html 15:37
* Sparks sees his guides in System->Documentation 15:38
Sparks right above Help and About Fedora and... 15:38
jjmcd Look in help 15:38
Sparks That's an odd place for those... I mean... maybe not odd but I sure wouldn't go looking there 15:39
* Sparks isn't the "help" kinda guy 15:39
jjmcd Well, "Documentation" doesn't show up until you install a guide 15:39
Sparks Yes 15:40
Sparks I think it makes it stand out more. 15:40
Sparks Because you'll know that something has changed when you install the package 15:41
Sparks otherwise you might not know where to go and look 15:41
jjmcd Maybe it makes more sense to put About-Fedora, Readme, Readme-Accessibility and Release-Notes in "Documentation" and leave yelp for the gnome stuff 15:41
Sparks Maybe 15:42
jjmcd Again, though, what does that look like in kde? 15:42
jjmcd That kde menu is just plain weird 15:42
Sparks yeah. 15:42
Sparks Apparently no one in #fedora-kde want to come join us 15:42
jjmcd we need rudi 15:42
Sparks I'll install KDE later today and will start playing around 15:42
zoglesby rudi rudi rudi 15:42
jjmcd Maybe they're all in AUS 15:42
jjmcd I would if today wasn't so bloody full 15:43
Sparks Maybe 15:43
zoglesby the menu issue with kde 4 will be an issue with gnome 3 (shell) anyway 15:43
zoglesby at least from what I have seen about it 15:44
jjmcd I tried it on a stick this morning, no joy. Then in a VM, only a few minutes to play tho. I have a free partition on my big box, I just hate to reboot it to play 15:44
jjmcd Aaarghh 15:44
Sparks Okay 15:44
Sparks So Accessibility will be taken care of... 15:45
Sparks what's left? 15:45
Sparks About-Fedora and Readme 15:45
Sparks Where is the readme and do we really need that? 15:46
jjmcd Isn't that kinda small for a guide - acc I mean 15:46
jjmcd readme has a bunch of misc stuff, i think its pretty useful 15:46
jjmcd although currently most people will never find it 15:46
Sparks Maybe, but it is important and I think it should be available in as many formats and to as many people as possible 15:46
jjmcd now that it is publicanized and on the menu it is probably more useful 15:46
Sparks Well... I still think packaging everything separately is better 15:47
Sparks I don't really care if you want it or not... if you think it is good then I say keep it! 15:47
jjmcd Yeah, I think we should. 15:47
jjmcd I notice the readmes weren't localized in F8 15:48
jjmcd interesting 15:48
jjmcd Oh, sorry, only accessibility wasn't localized 15:49
jjmcd hey 15:49
Kevin_Kofler So I was summoned? 15:49
jjmcd there's our kde expert 15:49
jjmcd We were trying to decide about formats for RN's, etc. 15:49
Sparks Kevin_Kofler: Oh do we have questions for you 15:49
Sparks RNs == Release Notes 15:50
jjmcd Right now we have an uneven mix of formats, some html, some text, some xml 15:50
jjmcd want to clean that up 15:50
jjmcd Our default is to put everything in yelp but we don't know what that does to kde 15:50
Kevin_Kofler That's horrible. 15:51
Kevin_Kofler KDE can't open Yelp files. 15:51
Kevin_Kofler And Yelp isn't on the KDE spin at all. 15:51
Kevin_Kofler As it requires the xulrunner stack. 15:51
jjmcd doesn't scrollkeeper read those files? 15:51
Kevin_Kofler I don't know. But it's not part of KDE either, I don't think we have this on the KDE spin at this time either. 15:52
jjmcd I found scrollkeeper in help on the kde live image, but it didn't seem to do anything 15:52
Sparks Kevin_Kofler: Can you install fedora-security-guide-en-US and tell us how it shows up on your KDE system? 15:53
jjmcd So, by default, publican puts files under a "Documentation" menu, does that work? 15:53
Kevin_Kofler Hmmm... http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/browsers.shtml 15:53
Kevin_Kofler Looks like if you use Scrollkeeper format as opposed to Yelp's native format, you should get the doc to show up in both Yelp and KHelpCenter. 15:53
Sparks jjmcd: Publican == HTML, right? 15:53
jjmcd If that's what you build 15:53
Sparks jjmcd: make srpm-en-US 15:54
jjmcd yelp is just xml 15:54
Kevin_Kofler Hmmm, I'm still running F10, the XZ-payload RPMs won't install here. :-( 15:54
Kevin_Kofler What I do know is that KDE's help browser, KHelpCenter, won't open GNOME programs' Yelp documentations. 15:56
Kevin_Kofler It doesn't understand the format. 15:56
jjmcd hmmm, my kde help doesn't look remotely like that 15:57
zoglesby maybe we need to talk to the teams and get that fixed 15:57
zoglesby a format that works on both 15:57
jjmcd Well, there are a pile of auxiliary files, gnome might not provide them 15:57
Kevin_Kofler My recommendation is to go with plain HTML for the documentation, it works everywhere. 15:59
Sparks I think that is the output of Publican in srpm mode 16:00
jjmcd Well, not "plain" html, but rudi is fixing that 16:00
* Sparks will test that later today 16:00
jjmcd Sparks, I think we need to test multiple langs ... I'm not sure Publican actually handles that 16:01
Sparks  ? 16:01
jjmcd How does KDEhelp deal with languages? Is there some OMF equivalent? 16:01
* Sparks notes it is high noon and time for the board meeting 16:02
jjmcd Sparks - if you log on in Dutch, do you get the Dutch guide? I see no evidence in the spec to enable that 16:02
jjmcd shoot you're right 16:02
jjmcd looks like more research 16:03
Sparks jjmcd: Well, if you install the Dutch version of the package... 16:03
jjmcd What if you have multiple langs installed? 16:03
Sparks So in Anaconda when you say "I speak Dutch" it should know how to grab the proper language 16:03
jjmcd On the same system, you get the release notes in the language you logged on with, no matter what you installed with 16:04
Sparks Well, after you have everything setup you can select which document you open according to the language. They would all show up 16:04
jjmcd anaconda doesn't grab packages based on languafe 16:04
Sparks I don't know 16:05
jjmcd The packages have all the languages in the rpm 16:05
Sparks no 16:05
Sparks errr 16:05
jjmcd Well, Publican's dont! 16:05
Sparks maybe 16:05
Sparks You CAN but the SG is being packaged separately 16:06
jjmcd But for all the apps, the strings are in a string file 16:06
jjmcd kinda like our po's 16:06
Sparks These aren't apps 16:06
Sparks These are documents 16:06
jjmcd yeah, but anaconda don't know that 16:06
Sparks Can we tell it? 16:07
jjmcd I'm not enough of a spec file guru to tell 16:07
Sparks nor am I 16:07
jjmcd I would hate to have to wade through a menu of 42 langs for each doc 16:08
Sparks You shouldn't have to 16:08
jjmcd With yelp it is simple - everything is in the lang you logged on with 16:08
jjmcd just like the apps 16:08
Sparks Well, I think we might have to build a better egg... 16:09
Sparks hmm... 16:09
Sparks Maybe documentation groups by language? 16:09
Sparks The language you select could automagically tag the proper documentation language? 16:10
jjmcd OK, lets do some research and go to the board meeting. Perhaps you can make an F10 RPM for Kevin 16:10
jjmcd That's how yelp works 16:10
jjmcd ANd if your language isn't there you get C 16:10
Sparks F10 should be there 16:10
Sparks Okay... will do research 16:11
Sparks anything else? 16:11
Sparks No? 16:11
jjmcd no 16:11
Sparks Thanks Kevin_Kofler for joining us 16:11
Kevin_Kofler KDE KHelpCenter will use the system's language for its native docs. 16:11
Kevin_Kofler But of course if you have just plain HTML, there's no obvious way to get that effect. :-( 16:12
* jjmcd needs to study kdehelpcenter 16:12
Kevin_Kofler The desktops work hard on making their formats work well, but unfortunately, interoperability leaves much to be desired. 16:12
Sparks jjmcd: You know, RH might have already figured this out for us. 16:12
jjmcd Sparks, they should have 16:12
Sparks #action Sparks to investigate how RH handles various languages of Publican docs 16:13
Sparks Okay... Closing down the shop... 16:13
Sparks Thanks everyone for coming! 16:14
Sparks #endmeeting 16:14