| Sparks
| #startmeeting Docs Project Release Notes Meeting
| 15:01
|
| Sparks
| #topic Roll Call
| 15:01
|
| * Sparks
| 15:01
|
| * jjmcd .
| 15:01
|
| jjmcd
| I thought zack was gonna be here, don't know who else
| 15:03
|
| * Sparks wonders if rudi fell asleep
| 15:03
|
| jjmcd
| It is the middle of the night there,
| 15:04
|
| jjmcd
| Maybe we'll just make a decision and move on
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| WORKSFORME
| 15:05
|
| * Sparks was also thinking that we had to use -1 room because the regular meeting room was occupied.
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| Oh well...
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| #topic Old Business
| 15:05
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project
| 15:06
|
| Sparks
| I think this was for "homepage"?
| 15:06
|
| jjmcd
| identified browsers, haven't contqacted developers
| 15:06
|
| Sparks
| Which browsers were affected? Was it just Lynx?
| 15:06
|
| jjmcd
| https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Browsers
| 15:07
|
| jjmcd
| Yes, just lynx
| 15:07
|
| jjmcd
| Pretty inconsistent behavior from browser to browser, though
| 15:07
|
| Sparks
| Cool. That should be easy.
| 15:07
|
| Sparks
| Ya... What is the proposed fix?
| 15:07
|
| jjmcd
| Probably an internal message like the other browsers would make sense
| 15:08
|
| Sparks
| Ok
| 15:08
|
| Sparks
| So we are depreciating homepage
| 15:08
|
| jjmcd
| I can't see where it makes sense to keep it unless lynx wants to include it in their rpm
| 15:09
|
| jjmcd
| But we should probably send a note to devel-list first
| 15:09
|
| Sparks
| Ya
| 15:09
|
| jjmcd
| So many things have embedded browsers who knows
| 15:09
|
| Sparks
| #action jjmcd to contact lynx developers about homepage
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| #action jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| anything else?
| 15:10
|
| jjmcd
| I think that takes care of homepage, now, what else wants to be in the rpm
| 15:10
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs
| 15:11
|
| Sparks
| ^^^ The other item from last week
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| oh yeah, forgot that one
| 15:11
|
| Sparks
| next week?
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| I was more concerned about the whole text, html, xml think
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| thing
| 15:11
|
| jjmcd
| Should we make all these consistent?
| 15:12
|
| jjmcd
| Should we drop the html which nobody can find anyway?
| 15:12
|
| Sparks
| prolly
| 15:12
|
| Sparks
| we should simplify everything
| 15:12
|
| Sparks
| don't ship stuff that we don't need in formats no one uses
| 15:12
|
| jjmcd
| Personally, I would like to see everything in yelp, nice consistent appearance, easy to find
| 15:13
|
| Sparks
| Does that work in KDE and other desktop environments?
| 15:13
|
| jjmcd
| there is a scrollkeeper tab in kde help, but it doesn't seem to do anything
| 15:13
|
| jjmcd
| but then I am having trouble testing kde
| 15:13
|
| * Sparks should probably install KDE on his box
| 15:13
|
| jjmcd
| can't boot a stick, and my vm install seems weird
| 15:14
|
| jjmcd
| I have kde as another wm, but that isn't the same as having a pure kde box
| 15:14
|
| Sparks
| Ya
| 15:14
|
| zoglesby
| Sorry I am late
| 15:14
|
| jjmcd
| hi zach
| 15:14
|
| jjmcd
| lessee -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jjmcd/Drafts/Browsers
| 15:15
|
| jjmcd
| I didn't contact the lynx guys yet
| 15:15
|
| jjmcd
| zoglesby, do you us kde?
| 15:15
|
| zoglesby
| no
| 15:16
|
| zoglesby
| xmonad and sometimes gnome
| 15:16
|
| jjmcd
| how does yelp work for you?
| 15:16
|
| Sparks
| zoglesby: You can test xmonad for us, then
| 15:16
|
| zoglesby
| test what? yelp?
| 15:16
|
| jjmcd
| Trying to decide whether we can get away with release notes in xml only
| 15:17
|
| jjmcd
| We do have a bug, tho, that makes no sense to me. Changelog doesn't show in yelp
| 15:17
|
| Sparks
| doesn't Publican put the changelog inside the document?
| 15:19
|
| jjmcd
| yes
| 15:19
|
| jjmcd
| that why it makes no sense
| 15:19
|
| Sparks
| just point to it and move on
| 15:19
|
| Sparks
| IMO
| 15:19
|
| jjmcd
| yeah, that one isn't high on my list
| 15:19
|
| jjmcd
| so we have release notes, about fedora, readme, readme burning isos and readme live image all in yelp
| 15:20
|
| jjmcd
| Whether separate RPMs tbd
| 15:20
|
| Sparks
| Well...
| 15:20
|
| Sparks
| let's address that now...
| 15:20
|
| Sparks
| #topic What to include in the RN RPM
| 15:21
|
| Sparks
| So there is...
| 15:21
|
| Sparks
| About Fedora, readme, readme burning isos, and readme live image
| 15:21
|
| jjmcd
| OK, I had readme accessibility as a separate topic in my mind, but we should address that, too
| 15:21
|
| Sparks
| I think the last two shouldn't be distributed
| 15:21
|
| Sparks
| I think we address those two topics in various guides and on the wiki
| 15:22
|
| jjmcd
| because you already know if you got there
| 15:22
|
| Sparks
| ya
| 15:22
|
| jjmcd
| I can buy that
| 15:22
|
| Sparks
| I say we remove those completely
| 15:22
|
| jjmcd
| No complaints from this quarter
| 15:22
|
| Sparks
| zoglesby: ?
| 15:23
|
| zoglesby
| I agree
| 15:23
|
| Sparks
| Okay. What is the readme?
| 15:23
|
| jjmcd
| ok a little less clutter
| 15:23
|
| jjmcd
| what about accessibility?
| 15:23
|
| zoglesby
| no point in telling a user how to burn a cd if its in the iso
| 15:23
|
| zoglesby
| they cant see it until after they burn it
| 15:23
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: What is in the accessibility document?
| 15:24
|
| jjmcd
| dunno
| 15:24
|
| jjmcd
| it went missing around 9 or 10
| 15:24
|
| jjmcd
| wait, I have an f8 box
| 15:25
|
| Sparks
| I think that should probably be a guide.
| 15:25
|
| * Sparks assumes it talks about using Fedora with screen readers and such
| 15:25
|
| zoglesby
| that would be my guess
| 15:25
|
| jjmcd
| Oh yeah, it talks about legal requirements and such
| 15:26
|
| jjmcd
| lists a boatload of solutions
| 15:26
|
| Sparks
| Can you send that to me?
| 15:26
|
| jjmcd
| should be in git
| 15:26
|
| jjmcd
| looking
| 15:27
|
| * Sparks doesn't see it
| 15:27
|
| jjmcd
| I don't either ... K, I'll send it. Take some dancing tho, its on my firewall which is mostly devoid of software
| 15:28
|
| Sparks
| http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/release-notes/devel/README-Accessibility?root=docs&view=c
| 15:29
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Is that it?
| 15:29
|
| jjmcd
| I think so
| 15:29
|
| jjmcd
| Lets recap
| 15:29
|
| jjmcd
| yelp contains RNs, about-fedora, readme and readme-accessibility
| 15:29
|
| jjmcd
| # of RPMs tbd
| 15:30
|
| jjmcd
| We will somehow check that KDE can use
| 15:30
|
| jjmcd
| That looks familiar
| 15:31
|
| zoglesby
| I will check xmonad and evilwm
| 15:31
|
| Sparks
| #idea We individualize all the packages and not ship them together.
| 15:31
|
| jjmcd
| Perhaps we have an RN-gnome and RN-kde?
| 15:31
|
| Sparks
| I think that's just more work
| 15:32
|
| jjmcd
| I wonder whether that section 508 stuff has been expanded since 2000
| 15:33
|
| * Sparks summons Kevin_Kofler to ask about KDE stuff
| 15:33
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: I used to do some of the accessibility stuff for East Carolina University
| 15:34
|
| jjmcd
| Sparks, yeah, probably right. If we can make yelp/scrollkeeper work in kde we should be happy with that
| 15:34
|
| Sparks
| I want to Publicanize that document and make it a guide
| 15:34
|
| jjmcd
| Will you make a guide rpm for yelp?
| 15:34
|
| Sparks
| Well... I can make it a package and make it available in the repo.
| 15:36
|
| * Sparks isn't sure how things get installed by default
| 15:36
|
| Sparks
| But I think it might be helpful to have that information available BEFORE installing
| 15:36
|
| jjmcd
| Well, if I installed selinux-guide it would be nice to see it in yelp with the rest of the docs
| 15:36
|
| Sparks
| it doesn't?
| 15:37
|
| jjmcd
| No, the guides are html
| 15:37
|
| * Sparks sees his guides in System->Documentation
| 15:38
|
| Sparks
| right above Help and About Fedora and...
| 15:38
|
| jjmcd
| Look in help
| 15:38
|
| Sparks
| That's an odd place for those... I mean... maybe not odd but I sure wouldn't go looking there
| 15:39
|
| * Sparks isn't the "help" kinda guy
| 15:39
|
| jjmcd
| Well, "Documentation" doesn't show up until you install a guide
| 15:39
|
| Sparks
| Yes
| 15:40
|
| Sparks
| I think it makes it stand out more.
| 15:40
|
| Sparks
| Because you'll know that something has changed when you install the package
| 15:41
|
| Sparks
| otherwise you might not know where to go and look
| 15:41
|
| jjmcd
| Maybe it makes more sense to put About-Fedora, Readme, Readme-Accessibility and Release-Notes in "Documentation" and leave yelp for the gnome stuff
| 15:41
|
| Sparks
| Maybe
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| Again, though, what does that look like in kde?
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| That kde menu is just plain weird
| 15:42
|
| Sparks
| yeah.
| 15:42
|
| Sparks
| Apparently no one in #fedora-kde want to come join us
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| we need rudi
| 15:42
|
| Sparks
| I'll install KDE later today and will start playing around
| 15:42
|
| zoglesby
| rudi rudi rudi
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| Maybe they're all in AUS
| 15:42
|
| jjmcd
| I would if today wasn't so bloody full
| 15:43
|
| Sparks
| Maybe
| 15:43
|
| zoglesby
| the menu issue with kde 4 will be an issue with gnome 3 (shell) anyway
| 15:43
|
| zoglesby
| at least from what I have seen about it
| 15:44
|
| jjmcd
| I tried it on a stick this morning, no joy. Then in a VM, only a few minutes to play tho. I have a free partition on my big box, I just hate to reboot it to play
| 15:44
|
| jjmcd
| Aaarghh
| 15:44
|
| Sparks
| Okay
| 15:44
|
| Sparks
| So Accessibility will be taken care of...
| 15:45
|
| Sparks
| what's left?
| 15:45
|
| Sparks
| About-Fedora and Readme
| 15:45
|
| Sparks
| Where is the readme and do we really need that?
| 15:46
|
| jjmcd
| Isn't that kinda small for a guide - acc I mean
| 15:46
|
| jjmcd
| readme has a bunch of misc stuff, i think its pretty useful
| 15:46
|
| jjmcd
| although currently most people will never find it
| 15:46
|
| Sparks
| Maybe, but it is important and I think it should be available in as many formats and to as many people as possible
| 15:46
|
| jjmcd
| now that it is publicanized and on the menu it is probably more useful
| 15:46
|
| Sparks
| Well... I still think packaging everything separately is better
| 15:47
|
| Sparks
| I don't really care if you want it or not... if you think it is good then I say keep it!
| 15:47
|
| jjmcd
| Yeah, I think we should.
| 15:47
|
| jjmcd
| I notice the readmes weren't localized in F8
| 15:48
|
| jjmcd
| interesting
| 15:48
|
| jjmcd
| Oh, sorry, only accessibility wasn't localized
| 15:49
|
| jjmcd
| hey
| 15:49
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| So I was summoned?
| 15:49
|
| jjmcd
| there's our kde expert
| 15:49
|
| jjmcd
| We were trying to decide about formats for RN's, etc.
| 15:49
|
| Sparks
| Kevin_Kofler: Oh do we have questions for you
| 15:49
|
| Sparks
| RNs == Release Notes
| 15:50
|
| jjmcd
| Right now we have an uneven mix of formats, some html, some text, some xml
| 15:50
|
| jjmcd
| want to clean that up
| 15:50
|
| jjmcd
| Our default is to put everything in yelp but we don't know what that does to kde
| 15:50
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| That's horrible.
| 15:51
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| KDE can't open Yelp files.
| 15:51
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| And Yelp isn't on the KDE spin at all.
| 15:51
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| As it requires the xulrunner stack.
| 15:51
|
| jjmcd
| doesn't scrollkeeper read those files?
| 15:51
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| I don't know. But it's not part of KDE either, I don't think we have this on the KDE spin at this time either.
| 15:52
|
| jjmcd
| I found scrollkeeper in help on the kde live image, but it didn't seem to do anything
| 15:52
|
| Sparks
| Kevin_Kofler: Can you install fedora-security-guide-en-US and tell us how it shows up on your KDE system?
| 15:53
|
| jjmcd
| So, by default, publican puts files under a "Documentation" menu, does that work?
| 15:53
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| Hmmm... http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/browsers.shtml
| 15:53
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| Looks like if you use Scrollkeeper format as opposed to Yelp's native format, you should get the doc to show up in both Yelp and KHelpCenter.
| 15:53
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Publican == HTML, right?
| 15:53
|
| jjmcd
| If that's what you build
| 15:53
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: make srpm-en-US
| 15:54
|
| jjmcd
| yelp is just xml
| 15:54
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| Hmmm, I'm still running F10, the XZ-payload RPMs won't install here. :-(
| 15:54
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| What I do know is that KDE's help browser, KHelpCenter, won't open GNOME programs' Yelp documentations.
| 15:56
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| It doesn't understand the format.
| 15:56
|
| jjmcd
| hmmm, my kde help doesn't look remotely like that
| 15:57
|
| zoglesby
| maybe we need to talk to the teams and get that fixed
| 15:57
|
| zoglesby
| a format that works on both
| 15:57
|
| jjmcd
| Well, there are a pile of auxiliary files, gnome might not provide them
| 15:57
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| My recommendation is to go with plain HTML for the documentation, it works everywhere.
| 15:59
|
| Sparks
| I think that is the output of Publican in srpm mode
| 16:00
|
| jjmcd
| Well, not "plain" html, but rudi is fixing that
| 16:00
|
| * Sparks will test that later today
| 16:00
|
| jjmcd
| Sparks, I think we need to test multiple langs ... I'm not sure Publican actually handles that
| 16:01
|
| Sparks
| ?
| 16:01
|
| jjmcd
| How does KDEhelp deal with languages? Is there some OMF equivalent?
| 16:01
|
| * Sparks notes it is high noon and time for the board meeting
| 16:02
|
| jjmcd
| Sparks - if you log on in Dutch, do you get the Dutch guide? I see no evidence in the spec to enable that
| 16:02
|
| jjmcd
| shoot you're right
| 16:02
|
| jjmcd
| looks like more research
| 16:03
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: Well, if you install the Dutch version of the package...
| 16:03
|
| jjmcd
| What if you have multiple langs installed?
| 16:03
|
| Sparks
| So in Anaconda when you say "I speak Dutch" it should know how to grab the proper language
| 16:03
|
| jjmcd
| On the same system, you get the release notes in the language you logged on with, no matter what you installed with
| 16:04
|
| Sparks
| Well, after you have everything setup you can select which document you open according to the language. They would all show up
| 16:04
|
| jjmcd
| anaconda doesn't grab packages based on languafe
| 16:04
|
| Sparks
| I don't know
| 16:05
|
| jjmcd
| The packages have all the languages in the rpm
| 16:05
|
| Sparks
| no
| 16:05
|
| Sparks
| errr
| 16:05
|
| jjmcd
| Well, Publican's dont!
| 16:05
|
| Sparks
| maybe
| 16:05
|
| Sparks
| You CAN but the SG is being packaged separately
| 16:06
|
| jjmcd
| But for all the apps, the strings are in a string file
| 16:06
|
| jjmcd
| kinda like our po's
| 16:06
|
| Sparks
| These aren't apps
| 16:06
|
| Sparks
| These are documents
| 16:06
|
| jjmcd
| yeah, but anaconda don't know that
| 16:06
|
| Sparks
| Can we tell it?
| 16:07
|
| jjmcd
| I'm not enough of a spec file guru to tell
| 16:07
|
| Sparks
| nor am I
| 16:07
|
| jjmcd
| I would hate to have to wade through a menu of 42 langs for each doc
| 16:08
|
| Sparks
| You shouldn't have to
| 16:08
|
| jjmcd
| With yelp it is simple - everything is in the lang you logged on with
| 16:08
|
| jjmcd
| just like the apps
| 16:08
|
| Sparks
| Well, I think we might have to build a better egg...
| 16:09
|
| Sparks
| hmm...
| 16:09
|
| Sparks
| Maybe documentation groups by language?
| 16:09
|
| Sparks
| The language you select could automagically tag the proper documentation language?
| 16:10
|
| jjmcd
| OK, lets do some research and go to the board meeting. Perhaps you can make an F10 RPM for Kevin
| 16:10
|
| jjmcd
| That's how yelp works
| 16:10
|
| jjmcd
| ANd if your language isn't there you get C
| 16:10
|
| Sparks
| F10 should be there
| 16:10
|
| Sparks
| Okay... will do research
| 16:11
|
| Sparks
| anything else?
| 16:11
|
| Sparks
| No?
| 16:11
|
| jjmcd
| no
| 16:11
|
| Sparks
| Thanks Kevin_Kofler for joining us
| 16:11
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| KDE KHelpCenter will use the system's language for its native docs.
| 16:11
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| But of course if you have just plain HTML, there's no obvious way to get that effect. :-(
| 16:12
|
| * jjmcd needs to study kdehelpcenter
| 16:12
|
| Kevin_Kofler
| The desktops work hard on making their formats work well, but unfortunately, interoperability leaves much to be desired.
| 16:12
|
| Sparks
| jjmcd: You know, RH might have already figured this out for us.
| 16:12
|
| jjmcd
| Sparks, they should have
| 16:12
|
| Sparks
| #action Sparks to investigate how RH handles various languages of Publican docs
| 16:13
|
| Sparks
| Okay... Closing down the shop...
| 16:13
|
| Sparks
| Thanks everyone for coming!
| 16:14
|
| Sparks
| #endmeeting
| 16:14
|
