Meeting:Release Notes IRC log 20090813

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Sparks #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting 15:03
* Sparks 15:03
* stickster (somewhat here) 15:03
jjmcd Well, we already started the discussion we have to have today 15:03
Sparks Yeah... let's look at the old tasks and see what we still need to do and then continue that conversation 15:04
Sparks anyone else? 15:05
jjmcd where's the minutes? 15:05
stickster link to the old stuff? 15:05
Sparks http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-August/msg00072.html 15:05
Sparks I've been posting all the meeting information at the same place as the Docs Meetings 15:05
Sparks jjmcd to contact lynx developers about homepage 15:06
jjmcd OK, last week I emailed the lynx maintainer 15:06
jjmcd no response yet 15:06
jjmcd still didn't write f-dev-l, wanted the lynx maintainer to have a few days 15:06
jjmcd and email been borked past coupld 15:06
Sparks #action jjmcd to follow up with lynx maintainer about homepage 15:07
Sparks jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage 15:07
Sparks #action jjmcd to contact #f-devel-l about deprecating homepage 15:07
Sparks Sparks to investigate how RH handles various languages of Publican 15:07
Sparks rudi: Can you answer that? 15:07
jjmcd Sparks, I tested, handles them poorly 15:08
Sparks How does RH manage different languages for installations of RHEL? 15:08
jjmcd http://www.mi-nts.org/sl/DocMenu3.png 15:08
Sparks Hmmm 15:08
jjmcd well, publican, still want to hear what RH does 15:09
Sparks Ya 15:09
rudi Sorry -- I'm not sure 15:09
Sparks I'll try to follow up with mhideo tonight. 15:09
stickster rudi: Is RHEL 5 using Publican-based docs at this time? 15:09
rudi Yes 15:09
Sparks #action Sparks to follow up with mhideo about how RHEL handles multiple languages of Publican docs. 15:09
stickster Sparks: So when we say "handle," you mean, what's installed by default, and what are considered the expected behaviors when someone installs multiple languages? 15:10
Sparks yes 15:10
* stickster is thinking adopting a Fedora default of "install all languages" needs to go to f-devel-l 15:11
Sparks Anything else in old tasks? 15:11
Sparks Okay... let's move to ideas of handling multiple languages in GNOME 15:12
jjmcd Well, if it's only Gnome, it's easy 15:12
jjmcd yelp does the job well 15:12
Sparks #idea Install all languages and have Yelp figure out what language to display based on logged in language. 15:13
jjmcd #idea Install all html and write a helper app 15:13
Sparks Yelp ONLY knows if the file has all the languages in it. Can it handle it if the languages are in different files? 15:13
jjmcd THey are in different files 15:13
Sparks Yeah? So can they handle various xml files made in Publican? 15:14
* stickster confused what "the file" is 15:14
stickster Yelp expects things to land in /usr/share/gnome/help/$DOCNAME/$LANG/ 15:14
jjmcd Sparks, yes, we take publican's output xml and give that to yelp 15:14
Sparks "the file" == Publican output of a specific language of a book 15:14
jjmcd Only prob is yelp doesn't display the changelog 15:15
Sparks But the changelog is included INSIDE the book 15:15
jjmcd Yes, but it shows up as empty in yelp 15:15
stickster jjmcd: Did you know that shaunm can probably help you get that fixed? 15:15
Sparks file a bug in yelp 15:15
* stickster thinks inviting him into this meeting might be good 15:15
stickster shaunm maintains gnome-doc-utils upstream. 15:15
jjmcd stickster, no, I didn't. I suspect it is a yelp bug or a publican-specific tag 15:15
stickster It's not a publican-specific tag, it's just DocBook 15:16
stickster <revisionhistory> 15:16
jjmcd Yeah, kinda strange how it doesn't show up 15:16
jjmcd So good, now I know it's yelp and not Publican, so I can file a bug 15:16
Sparks #action jjmcd to file a bug against Yelp to fix revision history from a Publican file 15:17
Sparks So this is no longer a problem? 15:18
jjmcd Sparks, FYI: /usr/share/gnome/help/fedora-release-notes 15:19
* Sparks really doesn't like this stuff being under "help" 15:19
jjmcd Publican does not create the omf file. If we stay with yelp, perhaps we should request that feature 15:20
* stickster notes that fedora-doc-utils used to have a way of putting things in a Documentation menu, but still using Yelp for the display. 15:20
stickster I don't think Yelp requires scrollkeeper anymore, but I could be wrong 15:20
jjmcd Yes, I think in 10 we had about-fedora in two places 15:20
jjmcd stickster, If I recall, I took some liberties in 11 and was surprised they worked 15:22
jjmcd So perhaps yelp is smarter than I was giving it credit for 15:22
Sparks jjmcd: Okay... experiment with Yelp and see what you can do... 15:23
stickster There are two ways to make Yelp bring up a doc 15:23
Sparks let's move on to KDE to see if we can get some ideas out about that. 15:23
stickster yelp file://$PATH/$DOC.xml 15:23
stickster or 15:23
stickster yelp ghelp://$DOCNAME 15:23
jjmcd We know we can make yelp work, but that doesn't help the KDE guys 15:23
stickster the second form for things that are entered into whatever's the new form of scrollkeeper 15:23
jjmcd Ahhh, cool 15:23
jjmcd and $DOCNAME is a subdir of gnome/help? 15:24
stickster jjmcd: correct 15:24
jjmcd I know there are those who would prefer html because it is desktop-agnostic 15:25
Sparks And on the topic of HTML... 15:25
jjmcd maybe rudi can enlighten us 15:25
Sparks KDE can't use XML, AFAIK 15:25
rudi Sorry guys -- one sec 15:25
Sparks So do we have to use HTML for KDE? 15:26
* stickster notes rudi is in #fedora-meeting right now too 15:26
rudi Yeah -- power management stuff :) 15:26
Sparks We see where we rank. 15:26
rudi lolz 15:27
stickster http://quality.kde.org/develop/howto/howtodocs.php <-- indicates KDE uses XML 15:27
rudi Let me check to see what the help on my machine here looks like 15:27
Sparks So we CAN use xml for both GNOME and KDE? 15:27
stickster http://kde.org/getinvolved/documentation/ 15:28
Sparks Looks like they are pushing DocBook 15:29
stickster http://l10n.kde.org/docs/doc-primer/ 15:29
stickster They may require a conversion to HTML for their display tool 15:29
* stickster refreshing memory, it's been a while. 15:29
Sparks http://l10n.kde.org/docs//markup/index.html 15:29
stickster A lot of these will make things hard for Publican. 15:30
Sparks Okay... so what do we NEED to know? 15:30
stickster Among tags they don't use: articleinfo, edition, sgmltag, productname, productnumber, remark, revhistory (!) 15:30
stickster Sparks: That HTML is probably going to be the way to go. 15:31
stickster You would probably need to install two .desktop files for a document 15:31
stickster One would include "OnlyShowIn=GNOME" and the other "OnlyShowIn=KDE" 15:32
Sparks two .desktop files? We'd need to packages for each language... 15:32
Sparks one with HTML and one with XML... 15:32
Sparks as I THINK it only packages it with XML, now. 15:32
stickster Why? 15:32
jjmcd both with html 15:32
Sparks Okay... so can Yelp handle HTML? 15:32
jjmcd No, we package both in the same rpm currently 15:32
Sparks With Publican? 15:32
stickster yelp file://$PATH/somefile.html <-- works fine 15:32
stickster try it: 15:32
jjmcd Ahhhhh 15:33
stickster yelp file:///usr/share/doc/HTML/fedora-release-notes/en-US/fedora-release-notes-en-US.html 15:33
stickster Except that dang .SVG file 15:33
Sparks Okay, so we aren't going to push any more XML... only HTML? 15:33
jjmcd We gotta get rid of the svg file 15:33
* jjmcd can see he is going to have to get a lot more friendly with sed 15:34
Sparks So are saying that we will not push any document as XML, only HTTP? 15:34
jjmcd I don't know we said that 15:34
Sparks Okay, I ask, then... Why do we need to use XML? 15:35
stickster Sparks: XML is for the document creation. 15:35
jjmcd Altho, if we can set up yelp to automagically select the correct html that may be a plus 15:35
Sparks I'm talking about the end product not the production 15:35
stickster Sparks: For the end product, I'm not seeing a big reason to ship XML in a package for end users. 15:35
jjmcd Yeah, I'm thinking that too. That would cut the payload almost in half 15:36
Sparks Okay... now does Publican 1.0 package HTML? 15:36
jjmcd But I'm from Missouri, I need to do more testing 15:36
Sparks rudi: Can Publican 1.0 package HTML? 15:37
jjmcd Don't know what Publican 1.0 does, but 0.44 does it lamely 15:37
Sparks Well, there is going to be no further development of 0.44 so we need to look towards 1.0 15:38
rudi Again, I have to say don't know -- I haven't really checked out the packaging features 15:38
jjmcd Sparks, I'm not sure it matters, at this point I'm not expecting Publican to make the package. The only question in my mind is can we make it look right for the end user 15:38
Sparks We have to use Publican 15:39
Sparks This is a decision that affects ALL our guides 15:39
jjmcd There are so many things it does wrong now it would be a miracle for it to get them all fixed in the next release 15:39
Sparks 1.0 has fixed many things. 15:39
jjmcd OK, I can see that. But the other guides are only going to be packaged as single languages, right? 15:39
Sparks yes... how are you going to do the RN? 15:40
jjmcd And if you have a single html, publican already does that 15:40
jjmcd Like we do today 15:40
jjmcd Like Paul said, we probably need a long discussion with releng if we want to take 41 langs off LiveCD 15:40
Sparks Well, there are definite negatives to a single package 15:41
Sparks We wouldn't take the languages off the LiveCD... just separate them 15:41
jjmcd Yes, but the negatives of multilple packages are much more significant for RNs than for the others 15:41
Sparks like? 15:41
rudi That said, how many of those 41 languages are translated to any appreciable degree? 15:42
jjmcd RNs are in the default distro and, more significantly, in the live CD. 15:42
jjmcd rudi - I would say better than half 15:42
jjmcd Only a few are 100% but most are probably >50 15:42
rudi Only 10 are >50%...https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/docs-release-notes/f11-tx/ 15:43
jjmcd So 1/4, makes it an easier sell I suppose, but is that really what we want? 15:44
Sparks so every time you update a single translation you are forcing everyone to pull that new RPM even if their language didn't change 15:44
jjmcd We only do that once per release if at all 15:44
jjmcd historically 15:44
Sparks why? 15:44
Sparks We should be pushing updates many times... whenever they are ready 15:45
jjmcd Just the way it's been. By the time there are significant new translations, we are mired in the next release 15:45
Sparks otherwise, lock the translations after the release 15:45
jjmcd Sparks, once we have the new tfx, we should be able to gen new rpms easily, but right now it is still a day's job or better 15:46
* stickster thinks it would be a good idea for Sparks and jjmcd (and other interested Doc'ers) to stay tuned into the yum-langpack issue 15:46
Sparks stickster: not familiar with that issue. 15:46
stickster https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/YumLangpackPlugin 15:47
Sparks jjmcd: Yeah, I know it is a pain but if the translators are doing the work we should reward that 15:48
jjmcd Sparks, I agree 15:48
rudi +1 15:48
Sparks Apparently Transifex 0.7 is being readied now. 15:48
* stickster lost on what question we're trying to answer at this point. 15:48
jjmcd Sparks wants one rpm per language. Actually makes sense for the guides, I'm not convinced on RNs 15:50
Sparks What's the difference between the Guides and the RN? 15:50
jjmcd The RN's get installed by default 15:50
Sparks so? 15:50
jjmcd And people expect to find them 15:50
Sparks So if the Security Guide gets installed by default then that changes things? 15:51
jjmcd What lang are you going to install? 15:51
Sparks all of them 15:51
jjmcd And what lang will be on the LiveCD. Remember, LiveCD is most folks first exposure to Fedora, and not all of those folks are in the US 15:51
stickster jjmcd: I'm not sure the release notes SHOULD be installed by default 15:52
Sparks you said, last week, that the space difference between pushing all langs as a single package or by separating them into separate packages was neglegiable 15:52
jjmcd I can buy that, but I'm not willing to make that decision unilaterally 15:52
Sparks jjmcd: All of them 15:52
stickster You've installed. And now you want to see what's different. Maybe we should provide a way to *get* relnotes. 15:52
rudi 25 languages are <10%, and of them, 11 are <5% 15:52
jjmcd That would certainly help out the LiveCD space issues 15:53
rudi I think there's a "least astonishment" issue here 15:53
jjmcd rudi, I suspect the most commonly used languages are the most translated, but I don't have data 15:54
rudi If people click on something purporting to offer them the release notes in Finnish, and the only extent that it's "in Finnish" are a couple of headings and the rest of the text is in English, I think that's a fail 15:54
Sparks well of course they are the most commonly used languages... they are the only ones that are provided!  :) 15:54
stickster rudi: I think that offering a download, and indicating the translation level and a link to help improve it... might be a win 15:55
* stickster has to split for another meeting 15:55
jjmcd Could be that I'm somewhat Euro-centric, but I suspect there are more Dutch users than Assamese, for example 15:55
jjmcd stickster, That does sound like a good idea 15:55
jjmcd I'm also assuming that if we have a large user community, we likely have a large translator community, too 15:56
Sparks Okay... five minutes left... 15:57
Sparks Did we agree to only ship HTML and no XML? 15:57
jjmcd Sparks, I could see fancying up docs.fp.o to include trans stats, and f-r-n.rpm simply has a menu entry 15:57
Sparks jjmcd: I'm good with that 15:58
rudi jjmcd -- great idea 15:58
jjmcd rudi, is there a clean way to capture trans stats when we make the html? 15:58
jjmcd We want the online stats to reflect the production doc so we can't just link to tfx 15:59
rudi In Publican 0.x yes -- really nice actually 15:59
jjmcd I would hate to do that by hand, but we could 15:59
rudi But I think the feature was dropped in 1.0 coz no-one was using it :) 15:59
jjmcd cool, OK then, lets assume that;s our jumping off point 15:59
jjmcd  :-( 15:59
rudi But Transifex gives us statistics right there 16:00
jjmcd Yes, but can I write a script to capture tfx stats into index.php at the time I make index.php 16:00
jjmcd Oh wait 16:01
rudi I don't know -- ask glezos :) 16:01
jjmcd One of the utils tells me that, so of course I can script it 16:01
jjmcd Just gotta figure out how 16:01
jjmcd You just reminded me that there is a util somewhere that looks at the po and tells me the % xlated which is exactly what we want 16:02
rudi Yeah, one of the gettext utilities 16:02
jjmcd yep 16:02
rudi *thinking* 16:02
rudi msgfmt? 16:02
jjmcd I'll find it 16:03
rudi msgfmt --statistics, I think 16:03
jjmcd Ahhh yes, man says so 16:04
rudi Yep -- just confirmed it 16:05
jjmcd So I could take that output and use it to add % trans to index.php 16:05
jjmcd OH I gotta go too 16:06
Sparks Did we agree to only ship HTML and no XML? 16:06
jjmcd Looks like we have a plan 16:06
rudi Yep -- 2AM and bedtime here 16:06
jjmcd No, we are only going to ship a menu item 16:06
Sparks a menu item? 16:06
Sparks to point to docs.fp.o? 16:07
jjmcd We'll save LiveCD 20 megs, people will get latest version, and trans stats 16:07
jjmcd Yep 16:07
Sparks What about those that don't have web access? 16:07
jjmcd Not much in Fedora works without web access these days, anyway. That was bbasically stickster's suggestion so lets talk about that with him, but use this as our current target 16:08
Sparks Okay.... I'm good with that approach for the LiveCD... I'm thinking about our SIPRNET users and airplane users 16:08
jjmcd I'm thinking the 22Mb will be worth more than the problem with offline 16:08
Sparks ya 16:09
Sparks Okay... anything else? 16:09
Sparks #endmeeting 16:09