QA/Meetings/20121210

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Contents

Attendees

  • adamw (150)
  • j_dulaney (36)
  • tflink (22)
  • Viking-Ice (21)
  • kparal (20)
  • jreznik (14)
  • nirik (11)
  • maxamillion (9)
  • zodbot (8)
  • jskladan (3)
  • wwoods (3)
  • satellit (3)
  • BobJensen (3)
  • pschindl (3)
  • mjg59 (2)
  • Martix (2)
  • jsmith (2)
  • mkrizek (1)

Agenda

  • Previous meeting follow-up
  • Fedora 18 Final status
  • Enterprise storage support for F18 / F19
  • Test case / criteria revision
  • Open floor

Previous meeting follow-up

  • adamw to brief #fedora ops and fedora-user-list regulars on fedup - he talked to some people, maybe not everyone
  • adamw to put 'enterprise storage support in newui' on next week's agenda - done!

Fedora 18 Final status

  • Current schedule was: change deadlines 2012-12-11, go/no-go 2012-01-01, release date 2012-01-08
  • Final TC1 was available and viable for testing, but not Secure Boot-enabled
  • Blocker list was substantial, at 28 proposed
  • fedup GUI still was not available, some fixes for rough edges pending

Enterprise storage support for F18 / F19

  • Enterprise/advanced storage types that require interaction to enable/use would not work via UI in in F18, but could be used via kickstart. UI is scheduled to re-appear in F19
  • Agreed that this needed to be documented for final release

Test case / criteria revision

  • RPM package error proposal positively received, should be put into practice
  • Agreed that we couldn't agree on a kickstart criterion, instead agreed to handle kickstart bugs on a case-by-case basis for F18
  • pschindl was working on test case adjustments for Final

Open floor

N/A

Action items

  • tflink to clarify use of his fedup side repo
  • viking-ice to let docs team know about advanced storage for release notes
  • adamw to put packaging error criterion revision into production
  • kparal to follow up on test@ discussion to explain the plan, and let anaconda team know

IRC Log

adamw #startmeeting Fedora QA meeting 16:00
zodbot Meeting started Mon Dec 10 16:00:24 2012 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:00
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 16:00
adamw #meetingname fedora-qa 16:00
zodbot The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa' 16:00
adamw #topic roll call 16:00
* jreznik is here 16:00
* satellit listening 16:00
* jsmith is lurking, and having internet issues 16:00
adamw welcome to the AGM of the grocery store bicyclists' association 16:00
adamw first on the order of business: raptor protection 16:01
* jskladan gets of his bike 16:01
* mkrizek is here 16:01
* j_dulaney waves 16:01
* jreznik has kickbike only (but the big one as he's big boy!) 16:01
jskladan adamw: i'd say - don't let raptors pass the tests, but that would probably by rasistic... 16:01
j_dulaney Raptors aint getting my bacon 16:02
adamw speciesist! 16:02
* j_dulaney brandishes rapier 16:02
jskladan that ^^ 16:02
* jsmith files a blocker bug against the raptor 16:02
adamw aside from the few cyclist-munching incidents and their tendency to arrive with significantly fewer passengers, raptors make fine bus drivers 16:02
adamw man, this is gonna look super-professional in the logs 16:03
adamw tflink: ping? 16:03
adamw i know you're around, stop hiding. 16:03
adamw don't leave me alone with all these Js. 16:03
* pschindl is here 16:03
adamw so no viking-ice, no tflink, no kparal? fired, the lot of 'em 16:04
adamw alrighty 16:04
adamw #topic Previous meeting follow-up 16:05
adamw "adamw to brief #fedora ops and fedora-user-list regulars on fedup" - heh. 16:05
tflink sorry, trying to get the list ready for mini-blocker-review 16:06
adamw well, I've talked to a few people about it, not sure I hit everyone in the description 16:06
* maxamillion is here 16:06
adamw .fire tflink 16:06
zodbot adamw fires tflink 16:06
j_dulaney Heh. 16:06
tflink cool, now I can go do other stuff 16:06
* maxamillion runs like hell from the angry bot master 16:06
j_dulaney My greatest contribution to Fedora QA 16:06
adamw it will live on long beyond fedora QA. 16:07
adamw as long as adamw is firing stuff, a little piece of you will survive. 16:07
j_dulaney Yes! 16:07
adamw so fenrus and bob from #fedora are kind of up on fedup and grumbling about it to wwoods. not sure about user-list folks. anyone been following that list lately? 16:07
tflink not so much 16:08
BobJensen I've nothing on fedup 16:08
tflink but I keep seeing bugs about people using my siderepo 16:08
adamw BobJensen: oh sorry bob 16:08
tflink which makes me think that I need to add something to the testing docs "don't use this for production instances, see the real docs" 16:09
adamw tflink: that sounds like a plan 16:09
adamw #action tflink to clarify use of his fedup side repo 16:09
BobJensen I don't know that we have seen enough users of it honestly 16:09
adamw BobJensen: see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedUp . it mostly works except when it doesn't. 16:10
j_dulaney Still? 16:10
tflink j_dulaney: still? it's brand new code 16:10
adamw BobJensen: the idea was we wanted to make sure you folks knew about fedup and could help people appropriately who try to use it, or asked 'how do i upgrade' 16:10
j_dulaney Is it still doing the "not installing kernel" issue/ 16:10
adamw j_dulaney: well, I mean, like all upgraders. i'd say the same about the old ones. 16:10
BobJensen adamw: I'll add a shortcut here so if people ask I have the link anyhow 16:10
tflink j_dulaney: pretty much, but that's not a fedup issue 16:11
adamw BobJensen: there's a 'how can I upgrade' anchor in the wiki page 16:11
j_dulaney tflink: You know what I think about that, I'll not start flamng here 16:11
* kparal arrives late 16:11
adamw okay, i'll brief bob a bit more in private and let's move on 16:12
adamw #info "adamw to brief #fedora ops and fedora-user-list regulars on fedup" - partly done 16:12
adamw #info "adamw to brief #fedora ops and fedora-user-list regulars on fedup" - done, and we'll come to it in a minute. 16:12
adamw grrr 16:12
adamw #undo 16:12
zodbot Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x29840e50> 16:12
Martix what are you doing here? let's /join #fedora-test-day :-P 16:12
adamw #info "adamw to put 'enterprise storage support in newui' on next week's agenda" - done, and we'll come to it in a minute. 16:13
adamw oh god, in 'things I forgot to blog about' news... 16:13
adamw #chair tflink kparal 16:13
zodbot Current chairs: adamw kparal tflink 16:13
adamw #topic Fedora 18 Final status 16:13
Martix adamw: you still can, test week just began 16:14
adamw so to make sure everyone's on the same page - the change deadline is now tomorrow, 2012-12-11 16:14
adamw the target release date is still 2012-01-08 16:14
adamw go/no-go is, conveniently, on new year's day, when we will all be fully alert and committed to such an important decision 16:14
tflink with 28 proposed blockers and 14 accepted blockers? this should be interesting 16:14
j_dulaney Heh 16:15
adamw #info current schedule: change deadlines 2012-12-11, go/no-go 2012-01-01, release date 2012-01-08 16:15
adamw tflink: fascinating! 16:15
adamw did you clean up the proposed list for the 'obvious' bugs? 16:15
jreznik adamw: well, the go/no-go has to be definitely moved to thursday... but I'm not sure how final go/no-go looks like - it's on purpose on tuesday... 16:16
tflink I got sidetracked this morning and haven't made it through the bugs that needed testing but I have a list of stuff that needs discussion 16:16
maxamillion adamw: I have a prediction the the attendence to the go/no-go will be low ... pending the intensity of the hang overs 16:16
jreznik so it would be 2013-01-03 16:17
adamw tflink: cool. 16:17
adamw jreznik: ah, okay. 16:17
maxamillion (that was semi peanut gallery, semi serious) 16:17
adamw grr 16:17
adamw #undo 16:17
zodbot Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x226770d0> 16:17
adamw #info current schedule: change deadlines 2012-12-11, go/no-go 2013-01-01, release date 2013-01-08 16:17
adamw #info go/no-go may move to 2013-01-03 16:18
adamw this is going to be tough enough without building a time machine. :) 16:18
j_dulaney Heh 16:18
adamw #info Beta TC1 is out and in testing 16:18
jreznik I'm really not sure why it's scheudled on tuesday... looking for veterans! 16:18
adamw no fires or explosions relating to TC1, right? it more or less works 16:18
adamw jreznik: hell if i know, i'm usually permanently wasted by this point in the schedule :P 16:19
* nirik has one thing to bring up at some point... lives are sometimes failing to compose... looks like a weird race condition or something. 16:19
j_dulaney nirik: With live-image-creator? 16:20
nirik livecd-tools 16:20
nirik https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=885385 is the bug. 16:20
* jreznik is reading 16:20
Viking-Ice so we are suddenly back to 16:00 when last meeting was 17:00 utc? 16:21
nirik I tweaked with the builders yesterday and they seem fine, so not sure what changed or whats causing it. ;( 16:21
adamw #info nirik found problems with live composes of Final - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=885385 16:21
adamw Viking-Ice: er...it wasn't? we've been at 1600 the whole time? 16:22
j_dulaney nirik: It's only part of the time? 16:22
Viking-Ice adamw, ah see it now blocker bug 17:00 16:22
kparal Viking-Ice: qa meetings are at 16 utc, blocker bug meetings at 17 utc 16:22
j_dulaney adamw: It's always 11 am Eastern time, no matter if it is daylight savings or not 16:22
nirik right. it seems unrelated to which ks is used... for example, the kde's failed this way for tc1... but later I did them over and they worked fine. I really don't get whats going wrong. ;( 16:22
adamw j_dulaney: yes, that's the idea. 16:22
adamw by 'whole time' i meant 'since the dst switch', of course. 16:23
j_dulaney nirik: Then we can probably live with it? 16:23
j_dulaney nirik: If at first you don't succeed, try again? 16:23
adamw #info no major showstoppers in TC1, it is viable for testing 16:23
nirik well, I think that would be pretty poor for trying to compose things... 16:23
nirik keep throwing it against the buildsystem until it works doesn't inspire confidence. 16:24
j_dulaney Aye 16:24
jreznik not good :( to just wait "to be lucky" 16:24
adamw but it works in a crisis. 16:24
adamw #info blocker list is considerable, though may be a little bit prunable 16:24
adamw tflink: how long is the list of bugs to discuss? should we do it inline or after the meeting? 16:25
* kparal is for a separate meeting 16:25
* j_dulaney notes he has a final exam in an hour 16:25
j_dulaney So, by default I will be getting off in thirty minutes 16:26
tflink I see 16 bugs on my list of 'ready for discussion' 16:26
adamw oh boy 16:26
adamw guess we're going 'after meeting' 16:26
adamw so aside from the above-noted...any major issues to resolve about 18 final status? or is everyone happy doing the blocker bug grind? 16:26
adamw or, you know, giving it all up to be a himalayan yak farmer. 16:28
adamw those are your only choices. 16:28
tflink define "giving it all up" 16:28
adamw no. you must trust to the yaks. 16:28
j_dulaney Do the criteria changes right quick 16:28
jreznik yak farmer... nice dream 16:28
maxamillion I've been really happy with F18's stability in the past week on my main workstation but I got lucky and didn't hit any anaconda bugs ... so blocker grind? 16:29
adamw j_dulaney: that's another topic 16:29
j_dulaney Can I give it all up to be a pirate? 16:29
adamw maxam: blocker grind as in, find blocker bugs, test fixes, test TCs/RCs 16:29
adamw j_dulaney: you're allowed to be a pirate on days off from yak farming. 16:30
adamw oh yeah, i did put another bullet under this heading 16:30
adamw tflink: do you know what shape fedup is planned to be in for final? 16:30
adamw i'm guessing no GUI, but are the rough edges getting knocked off? manually specifying remote location, lack of progress etc 16:31
adamw and nirik: what was the SB status of TC1? I lost track of that 16:31
nirik the signed shim is in updates-testing and was not pulled into the compose. 16:32
jreznik adamw: for GUI - FESCo seems not to require it, what's in GIT is really really very early try 16:32
adamw nirik: okay, so no real SB support in TC1. might come in next build. 16:32
* nirik nods. 16:32
adamw #info TC1 is not signed for SB 16:33
nirik if we pull new shim, we also need new lorax 16:33
adamw and vice versa? 16:34
j_dulaney Shouldn't, I thought 16:34
j_dulaney If I read things correctly 16:35
adamw istr nirik finding the build failed unless he pulled shim or downgraded something. 16:35
tflink that was fun, lost network for a few minutes 16:35
adamw welcome back tflink. how are the yaks? 16:35
nirik if we pull new lorax, it blows up without new shim 16:35
tflink not shaven yet 16:35
adamw right. 16:36
adamw tflink: so i was just asking what the likely status of fedup for final is 16:36
maxamillion nirik: is lorax the new pungi? 16:36
adamw as regards gui, 'smooth' operation, progress reporting 16:36
adamw maxam: they're both involved. 16:36
tflink it's getting better but I'm a bit behind on my fedup testing ATM 16:36
maxamillion adamw: rgtr 16:36
maxamillion rgr* 16:36
tflink my understanding is that there are some fixes in the pipeline that should help a few of the pain points 16:37
maxamillion the whole shim madness is something I barely understand 16:37
jreznik wwoods: are you around? 16:37
adamw maxam: i can forward you a gigantic email explanation of it i wrote if you like. 16:37
adamw #info some fixes for the rough edges of fedup impending 16:37
adamw okay, let's move on, time's a tickin 16:37
adamw #topic enterprise storage for F18/F19 16:37
wwoods I'm around! I'm also about. 16:37
adamw Viking-Ice: around? 16:37
Viking-Ice yup 16:37
adamw wwoods: too late! 16:37
adamw so this was yours... 16:38
wwoods Well then I'm outside. 16:38
Viking-Ice yup 16:38
wwoods and other prepositions. 16:38
mjg59 (Crying) 16:38
adamw and, indeed, positions. 16:38
j_dulaney adamw: I'd like the shim email as well 16:38
j_dulaney If you don't mind 16:38
Viking-Ice https://www.redhat.com/archives/anaconda-devel-list/2012-December/msg00025.html 16:38
adamw mjg59: was that email I CCed you on too outrageously inaccurate or anything? before i send it to anyone else 16:38
jreznik wwoods: (about dialog) - seems like there's another topic but if you have anything for fedup status - just fire it :) 16:39
mjg59 adamw: No, it seemed reasonable 16:40
adamw Viking-Ice: what was the outcome of that? iirc, 'advanced' storage types that require interaction to enable aren't going to work in F18 16:40
Viking-Ice basically there is no UI on newUI for Enterprise/Advantage storage so enterprise admins/users will have to rely ks only 16:40
adamw mjg59: cool. 16:40
adamw #info enterprise/advanced storage types that require interaction to enable/use will not work via UI in in F18, but can be used via kickstart. UI is scheduled to re-appear in F19 16:40
Viking-Ice this ofcourse is something that needs to be mentioned in the release notes 16:41
j_dulaney +1 16:41
adamw agreed 16:41
Viking-Ice not sure if there is specific Anaconda/Installer section in the release notes 16:41
adamw do you want a #action to let the docs team know about it? 16:42
adamw or i can take it if you like 16:42
Viking-Ice no I'll handle it 16:42
adamw ok 16:42
adamw #action viking-ice to let docs team know about advanced storage for release notes 16:42
adamw anything else to cover on this or shall we move on to criteria/test cases? 16:42
* jreznik will recheck RN notes for it 16:42
adamw #topic Test case / criteria revision 16:45
adamw so i think my proposal on the RPM package error criterion was positively received, i'll go ahead and put that into production 16:45
adamw #action adamw to put packaging error criterion revision into production 16:45
j_dulaney +1 16:46
adamw kparal's kickstart revision proposal spawned a big discussion which was interesting but might have stranded the proposal a bit 16:46
adamw any ideas for action there? try and reset the discussion to a list of ks parameters it's plausible to 'support' for f18? 16:46
kparal I think we should vote in F18 according to our best conscience and target this new criterion to F19 16:47
j_dulaney Aye, that would be a good move 16:47
kparal it will be a long discussion yet, I think 16:47
j_dulaney Actually, I really think that criterion revisions should not take effect until the *next* release 16:48
tflink ideally, yes 16:48
adamw viking's said the same thing 16:48
j_dulaney That's been my problem with all the criterion changes in the middle of this release 16:48
adamw i don't disagree in theory, but for f18, we've kinda had to rejig things on the run or else we'd have nothing applicable 16:48
jreznik adamw: +1 16:49
adamw #action kparal to try and 'reset' kickstart criterion discussion back to the proposed set of 'supported' commands 16:49
kparal hmm 16:49
Viking-Ice can we actually do that 16:49
adamw that okay? 16:49
kparal I can try 16:49
adamw Viking-Ice: sorry, actually do what? 16:50
Viking-Ice dont we just need to say all ks command have to work and test for those 16:50
tflink I'm not sure that's practical for F18 16:50
Viking-Ice why try to split it up? ( should be easy to test as well ) 16:50
adamw well the worry is that if we say that we'll find a bunch of fairly obscure bugs and then what? 16:50
adamw but i suppose we could do it that way around...test it and see how bad it is 16:50
Viking-Ice let anaconda deal with it 16:50
j_dulaney Heh 16:50
Viking-Ice it's their brokenness right 16:50
kparal adamw: well we can always waive some obscure problems, same as for graphics cards etc 16:51
j_dulaney Aye 16:51
adamw kparal: well we can do that because they're 'conditional' breakages 16:51
kparal but it becomes more tricky than with a defined set 16:51
adamw we don't have a criterion that says 'all graphics cards have to work' 16:51
j_dulaney "All KS commands should work unless they are really freaking off the wall" 16:51
adamw if we did, it'd be kinda hard to waive some graphics cards being broken :) 16:51
Viking-Ice unless they have spesific ks command that can never break or become backwards incompatible I cant see how we can 16:51
adamw so if we have a criterion that says 'all kickstart commands have to work', it seems quite hard for us to say 'well except THIS one, obviously!' 16:51
Viking-Ice so basically we should follow their list ( if exist ) or check for all existing supporting ks commands right? 16:52
adamw Viking-Ice: that was matt miller's idea, and it seems reasonable, but the problem is right now the documentation of kickstart commands is somewhat outdated and doesn't in any way define a 'core set' 16:52
kparal that goes back to my long-term complain about criteria being all-or-nothing game 16:52
adamw so for f18, it's a bit hard 16:52
adamw sigh, we seem to keep winding up on tangents here 16:52
kparal I'll try to restart the discussion 16:53
adamw the task is really just 'quantify the level of kickstart functionality we consider minimal for f18 final release', that does not seem like it should be impossible 16:53
kparal with just a core set of commands for F18 16:53
kparal and possible changes for F19 16:53
adamw and shouldn't require fundamental reimaginings of process or anything 16:53
Viking-Ice yes I just fail to see why the need to quantify it in the first place 16:53
adamw what's your alternative for dealing with whether breakages in kickstart should block f18 final? 16:54
adamw just do it case-by-case? 16:54
adamw i mean, we could do that. 16:54
adamw we could just say 'we don't want to fiddle with the criteria temporarily, so we'll just handle these one by one for now.' 16:54
Viking-Ice I would say it blocks always and questionable items dealt with on case by case bases 16:54
jreznik case by case could work for F18, especially as we do not know in what state it is... 16:54
adamw shall we go with that, then? seems straightforward 16:55
tflink it'll work, I suppose and will probably generate less discussion in the short term 16:56
tflink may lead to some interesting discussions about what is worth blocking for, though :) 16:56
kparal case by case is the best way, it just requires more time to discuss 16:56
adamw okay. well let's hope we don't get too many cases. :) 16:56
adamw #undo 16:57
zodbot Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x1f3f3e10> 16:57
kparal adamw: should we follow up on that discussion for F19? 16:57
adamw #agreed instead of trying to write a 'temporary criterion' we'll deal with kickstart proposed blockers on a case-by-case basis for F18 final and try to come up with a longer-term criterion for F19+ 16:57
adamw I think so, yeah. 16:57
kparal ok 16:57
j_dulaney kparal That would be a good idea 16:57
adamw you want to do that now or keep it for post-release? 16:57
tflink we might want to tell the anaconda devs what we're doing, though 16:57
* j_dulaney needs to be off for his final final 16:57
adamw yeah, and follow up on test list 16:57
kparal adamw: I'll write a note there 16:58
j_dulaney See y'all later. 16:58
adamw #action kparal to follow up on test@ discussion to explain the plan, and let anaconda team know 16:58
adamw cya dulaney 16:58
adamw okey dokey 16:58
adamw pschindl: are you planning to work on the issues identified in your test case / criteria survey? 16:58
pschindl adamw: yes 16:59
adamw cool 17:00
pschindl I'd like to go through it this week 17:00
adamw did anyone have any worries / questions about pschindl's proposals that haven't been brought up in the thread? 17:00
adamw #info pschindl will work on his proposed final test case changes (see thread 'Final criteria/Test cases interconnection') 17:01
adamw #topic open floor 17:01
adamw anyone have anything that wasn't covered? 17:01
* satellit needed; a good anaconda tutorial lots of people having problems understanding how to install 17:03
adamw the docs team are working on updating the install guide for newUI. 17:03
tflink and people having trouble with patience, aparrently 17:03
satellit +1 17:04
adamw tflink: where are we doing the blocker review this week? 17:05
tflink bugzappers, I think unless someone has a better idea 17:05
* kparal +1 17:05
adamw okey dokey 17:05
adamw everyone to #fedora-bugzappers for some thrilling blocker review in two minutes 17:06
adamw or, you know, head for the yaks 17:06
* adamw sets fuse for two minutes 17:06
adamw it's a classical physics fuse this week! 17:06
Viking-Ice It should be done in QA or someother channel then bugzappers 17:06
kparal it should be done in #fedora-anythingelsethanbugzappers, right? 17:07
Viking-Ice I still say QA 17:07
kparal -1 17:08
adamw thanks folks 17:08
Viking-Ice but I accept #fedora-anythingelsethanbugzappers as well 17:08
adamw #endmeeting 17:08

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