Meeting:IRC Support Channel log 20080724

= 2008 July 24 IRC Support Meeting =

Problem Scope
IRC support needs to be improved. There is a shortage of good helpers, and operators to maintain order in the #fedora channel. The channel has many "non helpfull" helpers in it. Support is sometimes inconsistent or not present. We should be able to organize support efforts, attract more helpers and assist more users.

Action Items

 * 1) Add More OPs at the next meeting.

Misc

 * The next IRC Support Team meeting will take place in #fedora-meeting beginning 15:30 UTC on 2008-July-31.
 * Figure out how to get more helpers/schedule shifts.

Long term ideas
(This could be shared with other support types).
 * A 'support wizard' type app. Users could be directed to it to gather information and also point them to solutions for common problems.
 * Guidelines and orginization around all support types (mailing lists, talk, forums).
 * A channel bot for various needs.

Log
Jul 24 11:30:21 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Init Process Jul 24 11:30:28 	who all is here for the IRC support meeting? Jul 24 11:30:32 *	Sonar_Guy is here Jul 24 11:31:57 *	zcat Jul 24 11:32:21 *	Southern_Gentlem here (in and out) Jul 24 11:33:37 *	nirik waits a few more minutes for more folks. Jul 24 11:34:29 	here Jul 24 11:34:29 	Notes from the last meeting are here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Support_Channel_Meetings/Meeting-2008-July-17 Jul 24 11:34:36 *	BobJensen sits up Jul 24 11:34:42 *	roguedaemon wakes up Jul 24 11:34:43 ---	thomasj_ is now known as thomasj Jul 24 11:35:11 *	thomasj here Jul 24 11:35:13 	ok, lets start in... Jul 24 11:35:27 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Code of Conduct drafting Jul 24 11:35:40 	has anyone had a chance to poke at the code of conduct(s) on the wiki? Jul 24 11:35:56 	I think the ops one would be the more important one to get done first. Jul 24 11:36:04 	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Operators Jul 24 11:36:35 	additional items to add? is warning once too little? is 24 hour bans too much? Jul 24 11:36:41 *	Khaytsus flies up to the corner and lands Jul 24 11:37:22 	hello Jul 24 11:37:37 	welcome vwbusguy- and mock and Khaytsus Jul 24 11:37:43 	hello Jul 24 11:37:52 	nirik, everything looks good to me except #1 Jul 24 11:38:14 	yeah, thats a bit harsh (as are many of them). What would you suggest? Jul 24 11:38:20 	nirik: Southern_Gentlem and I have been using an un-official standard. warn, 15m ban, 1h ban, then 24h ban. Jul 24 11:38:43 *	nirik notes we are talking about the very early draft of ops code of conduct at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Operators Jul 24 11:38:44 	nirik: looks good to me (folks keep in mind too that these are just                                        guidelines, operators should be free to adjust according to situation) Jul 24 11:39:09 	nirik: i think it sort of depends on the situation, we've been doing ok                                         discussing and monitoring bans in #fedora-ops Jul 24 11:39:15 	I have a question about #3 Jul 24 11:39:23 	should it be ops discretion as to the length of the ban Jul 24 11:39:38 	or a statement I guess Jul 24 11:39:40 	BobJensen: go ahead... Jul 24 11:40:13 	If a user can not handle other conversations happening while they are getting help they should fine another medium to get help Jul 24 11:40:20 	that is just my opinion Jul 24 11:40:51 	BobJensen: sure, and we should point them at those when need be. Jul 24 11:41:05 	how is it any different than 10 people being helped at a time? Jul 24 11:41:29 	BobJensen, the problem is that we are getting alot of off topic conversations that are taking over the channel and the new people are scared to jump in Jul 24 11:41:45 	BobJensen: a perfect example of the disruption is look at what baron1984 does. Jul 24 11:41:45 	i think some off topic discussion is natural and almost necessary, but we all (not just ops) should stop when there is a question on the floor, and try to                                get other people in the habit of doing so Jul 24 11:41:48 	well, it's not the volume of lines I don't think... more the folks who join and wonder if they are in the wrong place. Jul 24 11:41:53 	well, it's a problem when people are flooding off topic. Jul 24 11:42:08 	the pointing people who are catching up or chatting waiting for some one to                                help to #fedora-Social is silly IMO Jul 24 11:42:29 	BobJensen, +1 Jul 24 11:42:40 	roguedaemon: most of us that have been doing this for a while do that anyhow Jul 24 11:42:56 	BobJensen, i agree, but the ones usually chatting dont help Jul 24 11:43:04 	yeah, roguedaemon +1... Jul 24 11:43:16 <Sonar_Guy>	and the problem becomes where do you draw the line? Jul 24 11:43:31 <BobJensen>	A lot of us are friends or damn close, we are going to chat Jul 24 11:43:51 	so update item #3 to say "Users who are consistently off topic AND NOT HELPING..." Jul 24 11:44:00 <BobJensen>	zcat: I can agree with that Jul 24 11:44:02 <vwbusguy->	I think if they are distracting you should point them to Fedora-social. If                                they persist, warm them and then ban them. Jul 24 11:44:10 	BobJensen: and that imho is what makes a good irc channel Jul 24 11:44:20 	zcat: agreed. Jul 24 11:44:28 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 zcat Jul 24 11:44:35 *	Sonar_Guy is updating the page Jul 24 11:44:48 *	nirik stops trying to update it, since Sonar_Guy is. ;) Jul 24 11:44:53 <BobJensen>	#4 Jul 24 11:45:15 	BobJensen: that may need to be modified if we aren't doing anything like shifts. Jul 24 11:45:21 <vwbusguy->	does #4 include nick changes - flooding Jul 24 11:45:22 <BobJensen>	when a user is having network issues, once it is cleared up I think they should                                be able to ask to get back in Jul 24 11:45:34 <vwbusguy->	it's happened a couple of times Jul 24 11:45:34 	vwbusguy-: yes Jul 24 11:45:51 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen, if they they will be Jul 24 11:45:53 	yeah, we should have a nick changing rule Jul 24 11:45:55 	BobJensen: seems quite reasonable to me... Jul 24 11:46:01 	i really hate that Jul 24 11:46:03 <BobJensen>	I( know I have had network problems in the past, I think all of us have Jul 24 11:46:17 	Sonar_Guy: I guess also remove the mail about bans and replace with note in ops channel? Jul 24 11:46:24 *	BobJensen points at Sonar_Gal Jul 24 11:46:38 	nirik: +1 i was just thinking that Jul 24 11:46:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen, and how many times have you banned people for the samething Jul 24 11:46:45 <vwbusguy->	that's the reason I have multiple nicks. Jul 24 11:47:07 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: I have never had ops in #fedora Jul 24 11:47:27 	I think we should also add something about ads... ie, pasting ads to a website/whatever. Most of those people just drop right back off tho. Jul 24 11:47:37 <Southern_Gentlem>	vwbusguy-, changeing a nick and leaving it changed is different than changeing to 15different nicks and spamming the channel Jul 24 11:47:45 <BobJensen>	well once I think, but I deoped as I do/did not want them Jul 24 11:48:09 	Southern_Gentlem: yeah thats what i meant, people who constantly change so you cant tell who they are, but its really impossible to regulate Jul 24 11:48:10 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen, but you have other less busy channels Jul 24 11:48:29 *	Sonar_Guy ask if anyone has issues to that change for #4 Jul 24 11:48:31 *	nirik is also fine with a '15min, 1hr, 24hr...' progression, just as a general guideline. Jul 24 11:48:32 <BobJensen>	* EPONYME is now known as eponyme Jul 24 11:48:32 <BobJensen>	* eponyme is now known as EPONYME Jul 24 11:48:32 <BobJensen>	* EPONYME is now known as eponyme Jul 24 11:48:53 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: not sure how that is on topic here? Jul 24 11:48:54 	Sonar_Guy: what do you have right now for it? Jul 24 11:49:09 <Sonar_Guy>	Users who are dropping on or off and flooding the channel with many leave/join messages may be removed from the channel until they contact and Operator in #fedora-ops. Jul 24 11:49:30 	s/and Operator/an Operator/ Jul 24 11:49:33 <Southern_Gentlem>	an not and Jul 24 11:49:43 <Sonar_Guy>	done Jul 24 11:50:00 <BobJensen>	adding nick changes to that? Jul 24 11:50:32 <vwbusguy->	well, nick change flooding Jul 24 11:51:12 	sure, I would be ok with that... we could leave what 'flooding' in that case is                        up to the ops? Jul 24 11:51:22 	how about some statement like pick a nick and stick to it Jul 24 11:51:36 <vwbusguy->	hmmm Jul 24 11:51:45 <Sonar_Guy>	Users who are dropping on or off and flooding the channel with many leave/join messages and/or nick change flooding the channel may be removed from the channel until they contact an Operator in #fedora-ops. Jul 24 11:51:52 	roguedaemon: we could put that under the Particpants code. ;) Jul 24 11:51:54 <vwbusguy->	avoid changing nicks often Jul 24 11:51:55 	thats actually a classic irc gripe Jul 24 11:52:19 <Southern_Gentlem>	need to add that to the users howto as well Jul 24 11:52:31 <vwbusguy->	Sonar_Guy, +1 Jul 24 11:52:33 *	nirik doesn't care if people change nics a few times a day or whatever, it's when                       they do about 10 changes a minute that it's anoying. Jul 24 11:52:41 	some people get aggravated and see it as some sort of deception Jul 24 11:52:44 <vwbusguy->	nirik, +1 Jul 24 11:52:44 	Sonar_Guy: +1 from me on that one. Jul 24 11:52:57 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 Jul 24 11:53:12 <Sonar_Guy>	anybody else want to weigh in?  or does that satisfy everybody? Jul 24 11:53:13 <vwbusguy->	it's annoying when your helping too, a minor annoyance, but still Jul 24 11:53:21 	i'm ok with that Jul 24 11:53:36 	ok, should we change all instances of 24h there to '15min, 1hr, 24hr as a                         general guideline' Jul 24 11:53:38 	on #1 - warning&banning harmless foulmouths shouldn't be a requirement. it's                        more about an abusive context than just the words Jul 24 11:53:49 	not everybody's thinskinned Jul 24 11:53:57 	vwbusguy-: agreed... Jul 24 11:54:06 	nirik: arent we sort of skipping the kick phase? :) Jul 24 11:54:23 	ive always looked at it like warning, kick, ban Jul 24 11:54:23 <vwbusguy->	nirik, I think as a guideline, but it should still be up to the ops Jul 24 11:54:29 <BobJensen>	zcat: and we need a list of what words are on the list, I am sick of                                seeing people warned for things like "damn" Jul 24 11:54:37 	zcat: true, but the thin skinned ones will get mad pretty quick. We want a                         nice env for everyone to ask questions. Jul 24 11:54:43 *	zcat looks at Southern_Gentlem :) Jul 24 11:54:58 	roguedaemon: I would be ok adding that too... Jul 24 11:55:10 *	nirik doesn't care, but it would be nice for it to be consistent. Jul 24 11:55:16 	nirik: most people that get kicked first come right back and apologize Jul 24 11:55:23 <vwbusguy->	BobJensen, well, then there are those that change one letter.. "fuk" Jul 24 11:55:51 *	Sonar_Guy was looking at just adding a blanket statement to each item similar to "per standard op guidlines." Jul 24 11:55:54 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: it is what is is, trying to avoid a kick by being creative Jul 24 11:56:02 <Sonar_Guy>	then defining the guidelines below Jul 24 11:56:23 	we could limit the things we care about to the 7 words? :) (rip george carlin) Jul 24 11:56:26 	can spoleeba still say frell? heheh Jul 24 11:56:26 	Sonar_Guy: sounds very good to me. Jul 24 11:56:27 <Southern_Gentlem>	hey i use the warning because of in the past if i didnt then it                                        wasnt long untill the fu*k and stuff starts flying Jul 24 11:56:27 <vwbusguy->	well, just saying, the list should not be exhaustive, and still up to                                 the ops discretion to enforce Jul 24 11:56:39 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: there should be a certain amount of credit for style points... Jul 24 11:56:51 *	roguedaemon prefers fut Jul 24 11:56:56 <vwbusguy->	fsck Jul 24 11:56:56 <Southern_Gentlem>	fsck Jul 24 11:56:59 <vwbusguy->	haha Jul 24 11:57:04 <vwbusguy->	you owe me a coke Jul 24 11:57:16 	Southern_Gentlem, if someone's going to curse they'll usually skip damn and hell :) Jul 24 11:57:33 <Southern_Gentlem>	zcat i will back off and we will see Jul 24 11:57:39 *	zcat prefers fvck Jul 24 11:58:13 *	nirik thinks we should not try and come up with anything specific here. It should be up to the pool of ops... things that disrupt the channel or cause those of a                       puritan background to find the channel a bad place should be stopped. Jul 24 11:58:14 <BobJensen>	oh hell when was hell a swear word other than when Southern_Gentlem is on duty? Jul 24 11:58:23 <Sonar_Guy>	Ok for #1 how is this Users who use profanity should be warned about the use of such language,then it is up to the operators description as to the option taken from the standard operators guidelines listed below. Jul 24 11:58:35 *	BobJensen smiles Jul 24 11:58:43 	BobJensen: h e double toothpicks? :) Jul 24 11:58:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	most of the time i dont tag people hell but combo Jul 24 11:59:07 	Southern_Gentlem: s/description/descretion/ ? Jul 24 11:59:17 *	nirik fails at tab Jul 24 11:59:24 <vwbusguy->	well, if it's offensive and distracting, then it needs to be addressed Jul 24 11:59:29 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: I just have to give you Sh*t Jul 24 11:59:38 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: yes Jul 24 12:00:02 	Sonar_Guy: that looks good to me +1 Jul 24 12:00:05 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen, thats why we are doing this so anvil and I arent                                         on duty all the fscking time Jul 24 12:00:20 <Sonar_Guy>	Users who use offensive and distracting profanity should be warned                                 about the use of such language, then it is up to the operators descretion                                 as to the option taken from the standard operators guidelines listed below. Jul 24 12:00:22 <vwbusguy->	Sonar_Guy, +1 Jul 24 12:00:31 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 Jul 24 12:00:40 	Sonar_Guy, +1 Jul 24 12:00:46 <BobJensen>	Sonar_Guy: +1 Jul 24 12:01:01 ---	dwmw2_gone is now known as dwmw2_YOW Jul 24 12:01:52 	ok, other things to add? Jul 24 12:02:15 	is there enough ops in the western hemisphere? Jul 24 12:02:16 <vwbusguy->	Is #6 for users who knowingly do so or unknowingly, or both? Jul 24 12:02:42 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: both Jul 24 12:02:42 	err eastern i mean Jul 24 12:02:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	willingly Jul 24 12:02:43 	both I would think. Jul 24 12:03:01 <vwbusguy->	this is why I brought it up - it needs to be clear Jul 24 12:03:04 <BobJensen>	"use the repo that should not be mentioned" is an example IMO Jul 24 12:03:13 <Sonar_Guy>	#2 Users who paste or dump large amounts of text in the channel (more than 4 lines) should be warned once, this will be enforced per the standard operators guidelines listed below. Jul 24 12:03:34 	Sonar_Guy: sounds fine. I just picked 4 lines there... should it be 2? or                        does it matter? Jul 24 12:03:37 <BobJensen>	Sonar_Guy: I would think it is OK to kick mid flood Jul 24 12:03:51 <vwbusguy->	maybe some fool thinks he's helping to tell people to install with rpm --nodeps --force? Jul 24 12:03:51 <BobJensen>	nirik: 4 has always been the rule Jul 24 12:03:56 <Southern_Gentlem>	yeah we need to kick mid flood Jul 24 12:04:01 <BobJensen>	nirik: and I think it is a fair number Jul 24 12:04:08 	yeah. Jul 24 12:04:15 *	nirik notes once we have a bot, we could get the bot to do it. Jul 24 12:04:19 <vwbusguy->	4 is a good rule Jul 24 12:04:43 <Sonar_Guy>	yUsers who paste or dump large amounts of text in the channel (more than 4 lines) will be kicked mid flood and should be warned, if                                the action continues this will be enforced per the standard operators guidelines listed below. Jul 24 12:04:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	flood is the one place we should be able to kick/warn Jul 24 12:04:57 	Southern_Gentlem: agreed. Jul 24 12:05:01 <Sonar_Guy>	ignore the y Jul 24 12:05:55 	Sonar_Guy: sounds good. Of course if there isn't a op looking right then, they might not get kicked in mid flood, but yeah... Jul 24 12:06:04 <vwbusguy->	yeah Jul 24 12:06:14 <vwbusguy->	I think users are good about warning in that case Jul 24 12:06:19 <vwbusguy->	because no one likes it Jul 24 12:06:30 <Sonar_Guy>	ok changed will to may Jul 24 12:06:37 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: yeah everyoone has always helped out Jul 24 12:07:09 <Southern_Gentlem>	from will to may be Jul 24 12:07:31 <Sonar_Guy>	#4 Users who are consistently off topic AND NOT HELPING when others are trying to get help should be warned once and then will be subject to the standard operators guidelines listed below. Jul 24 12:07:50 	BobJensen: everyone? I don't remember that nick... who are they? :) Jul 24 12:08:05 <Southern_Gentlem>	baron1984 Jul 24 12:08:06 	Sonar_Guy: looks good. Jul 24 12:08:07 <vwbusguy->	Sonar_Guy, +1 Jul 24 12:08:11 <BobJensen>	nirik: yeah him and anyone should really come around more Jul 24 12:08:38 <Sonar_Guy>	actuall that is #3 but we did #4 already Jul 24 12:08:42 <BobJensen>	if I could get the anyone nick I would jump on it in a heartbeat Jul 24 12:08:45 	#7: CrocoJet, NeilTheReilDeal ... Jul 24 12:09:36 <Sonar_Guy>	#5 Long term or repeat offenders may be removed for longer time periods                                at the discretion of the entire pool of Operators. Jul 24 12:09:48 <Southern_Gentlem>	dont say that nick it hasnt been around for awhile Jul 24 12:09:55 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: LOL Jul 24 12:10:14 	Sonar_Guy: added that in for the longer term bans... there will be some people that                         just never learn. Jul 24 12:10:36 <Sonar_Guy>	Yup Jul 24 12:10:46 <Southern_Gentlem>	entire discretion of the operators Jul 24 12:10:54 <Sonar_Guy>	any changes to #5? Jul 24 12:11:33 *	roguedaemon notices its getting dark at noon Jul 24 12:11:56 	btw, do we have a standard ban syntax? Jul 24 12:12:08 <Sonar_Guy>	going once, going twice. . . Jul 24 12:12:24 <Sonar_Guy>	#6 Users who consistently provide incorrect or dangerous help (telling users                                to 'rm -rf /' or the like) will be warned and then will be subject to the standard operators guidelines listed below. Jul 24 12:12:27 	ive been using kickban *!*@domain Jul 24 12:12:40 <vwbusguy->	roguedaemon, good, because it catches alt nicks Jul 24 12:12:51 	vwbusguy-: but you have to remember who it was... Jul 24 12:12:58 <Sonar_Guy>	and I would like to add #7 about advertising/ad bots Jul 24 12:13:00 	#fedora-ops logs covers that Jul 24 12:13:01 <Southern_Gentlem>	but the problem is that is a domain ban Jul 24 12:13:10 	Southern_Gentlem: actual hostname Jul 24 12:13:14 <vwbusguy->	Sonar_Guy, permanent bans Jul 24 12:13:16 	hostname? or ip? Jul 24 12:13:29 <vwbusguy->	I saw no tolerance on spam bots Jul 24 12:13:32 <Southern_Gentlem>	Sonar_Guy, +1 adbot ban of 24hours Jul 24 12:13:33 <BobJensen>	if we required registered nicks it would help Jul 24 12:13:36 	ie *!*@19.81-166-29.customer.lyse.net Jul 24 12:14:00 	host would be *!*@*.customer.lyse.net Jul 24 12:14:03 	thats what we dont want Jul 24 12:14:10 <Southern_Gentlem>	BobJensen, but the board has asked us to open to                                         channel for no reg nicks Jul 24 12:14:12 <Khaytsus>	*!*@*.br Jul 24 12:14:12 *	nirik should look up how to do bans sometime... ;) Not something I have done much of. Jul 24 12:14:35 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik /ban user Jul 24 12:14:36 	roguedaemon: unless it's a shared system, but then you are kinda limited in options anyhow. Jul 24 12:15:23 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: IMO I still believe if they want that then they better be the                                first ones to sign up to work shifts Jul 24 12:15:30 	kickban *!*@domain is any nick at that specific hostname, seems like the best approach Jul 24 12:15:40 <Sonar_Guy>	#7 Advertising or ad spamming the #fedora channel with advertisements either by user                                 or adbots will not be tolerated, violators will be subject to an automatic 24 hour ban                                 and repeat offenders may be banned for longer durations of time. Jul 24 12:15:56 	Sonar_Guy: sounds good. Jul 24 12:16:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	so i can advertise the re-spin any longer Jul 24 12:16:17 	heheh Jul 24 12:16:22 <Southern_Gentlem>	cant Jul 24 12:16:24 <vwbusguy->	Southern_Gentlem, well, it's Fedora related Jul 24 12:16:32 <vwbusguy->	diet pills or pyramid schemes however Jul 24 12:16:40 <Southern_Gentlem>	other channels Jul 24 12:16:55 <Southern_Gentlem>	which is a freenode rule Jul 24 12:17:04 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: anyone can make stupid requirements when it does not effect them Jul 24 12:17:56 	nirik: i want to see something about putdowns and personal attacks on the rule sheet Jul 24 12:17:58 	Southern_Gentlem: we could add 'advertisements/advertiesments unrelated to Fedora topics' Jul 24 12:17:59 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: but as always that is just my opinion Jul 24 12:18:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik yes i go fro that Jul 24 12:18:30 <Southern_Gentlem>	for Jul 24 12:18:43 <Khaytsus>	Any personal blog spam = 7 day ban Jul 24 12:18:58 <Southern_Gentlem>	lol Jul 24 12:19:00 	heh Jul 24 12:19:01 <vwbusguy->	nirik, +1 Jul 24 12:19:26 	Khaytsus: no one cares what you had for breakfast Jul 24 12:20:16 	roguedaemon: as enforced by ops? what rule would you like to see? Jul 24 12:20:48 	nirik: just stated on the code of conduct, no putdowns or personal attacks Jul 24 12:21:08 	roguedaemon, should be rolled into #1 Jul 24 12:21:33 	roguedaemon: as something ops should never do? or something they should enforce in the channel? Jul 24 12:21:48 	something we dont want anyone to do Jul 24 12:22:23 	i dont think we have to tell ops not to do that... Jul 24 12:22:25 <BobJensen>	roguedaemon: eliminate the stupid users and we can eliminate all sarcasm and humor from the channel Jul 24 12:22:34 	if the first, I would be happy with something about 'Ops should never stoop to personal attacks or putdowns, and should stive to make the channel a good place for users to be helped' or something. Jul 24 12:22:40 <Sonar_Guy>	Ok https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Operators#Channel_Operator_Code_of_Conduct Jul 24 12:23:13 	sorry, i guess that one was for the participants code of conduct Jul 24 12:23:16 	roguedaemon: we were planning on having 2 more codes... one for 'helpers' and one for end users...                        it should surely go there too. Jul 24 12:23:22 *	jds2001 steps in for a few minutes Jul 24 12:23:26 <Sonar_Guy>	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Operators Jul 24 12:23:56 	looks ok to me... Jul 24 12:24:05 	nirik: i guess i'm wondering how we handle that, maybe it needs its own number Jul 24 12:24:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	7 add fedora related Jul 24 12:24:24 	roguedaemon: well, we could add it as something to enforce... Jul 24 12:24:43 	like # Users who are consistently insulting or attacking other users should be                                 warned once and then removed from the channel for 24 hours. Jul 24 12:24:54 *	nirik thinks that many of these rules could be boiled down to 'don't be a jerk or let others be jerks' but thats pretty vuage. Jul 24 12:25:22 <Southern_Gentlem>	if you act like a 2 year old, you will be treated as such Jul 24 12:25:23 <Sonar_Guy>	Southern_Gentlem: you mean non-fedora related Jul 24 12:25:30 <BobJensen>	insulting just as profane is subjective Jul 24 12:25:32 	because its just not productive, no matter how stupid the attackee is Jul 24 12:25:33 	or to quote Bill and Ted "Be Excellent to each other" Jul 24 12:25:50 	roguedaemon: i think that 15 minutes would suffice there Jul 24 12:25:54 <GruSum>	Why not post the 6 most egregious violations in Channel Topics and then let the Ops handle other violations using their best judgment - would make ur                                life MUCH easier ? Jul 24 12:26:20 <Southern_Gentlem>	Sonar_Guy, yep non fedora related Jul 24 12:26:21 	as long as the big ones are clearly stated somewhere Jul 24 12:26:25 	roguedaemon: just a little cooling off period. More for repeat offenders obviously Jul 24 12:26:52 <Southern_Gentlem>	GruSum, topic isnt that large and needs to be used for other things Jul 24 12:27:11 <GruSum>	OIC Jul 24 12:27:55 	so, shall we add a rule for that? thoughts? Jul 24 12:28:00 <Southern_Gentlem>	why not Jul 24 12:28:07 <BobJensen>	nirik: it is too subjective IMO Jul 24 12:28:10 *	nirik realizes it would be subjective, just like the profanity one Jul 24 12:28:26 	i think its one of the biggest remaining issues Jul 24 12:28:29 	yeah, in some ways it would be more subjective... Jul 24 12:28:49 <BobJensen>	some have no sense of humor Jul 24 12:28:52 	not everything must be objective and scientific :) Jul 24 12:29:17 <BobJensen>	and there are a lot of times using a little humor gets a user on track Jul 24 12:29:18 ---	stickster is now known as stickster_food Jul 24 12:29:29 <Southern_Gentlem>	roguedaemon, example of an attack you are talking aobut please Jul 24 12:29:30 	jds2001: sure, but then we could just have a thing that said "whatever the ops want                         to do", which doesn't help things being consistent over a large pool of ops Jul 24 12:29:43 <Southern_Gentlem>	i know what i want to say but cannot put it in to works Jul 24 12:29:52 	ugh Jul 24 12:30:08 <vwbusguy->	roguedaemon, I agree with you that this is still an issue Jul 24 12:30:20 <vwbusguy->	sometimes people are too hard on n00bs Jul 24 12:30:23 	nirik: right, but some latitude is necessary Jul 24 12:30:26 <BobJensen>	like the last one I used the "Are your parents related?" on, he came back and thanked me for waking him up. Jul 24 12:30:58 <Southern_Gentlem>	someone comes into the channel and start cursing out one person for no reason (thats an attack) Jul 24 12:31:07 	BobJensen: yeah, it's hard to say in advance tho if someone will take that the right way, or get all offended. Jul 24 12:31:24 *	Southern_Gentlem slaps roguedaemon with the 60# unix manual Jul 24 12:31:33 <BobJensen>	Sonar_Guy should remember that one, he flipped on me then, later slowed down and got the help he needed Jul 24 12:31:45 <Sonar_Guy>	yup Jul 24 12:31:50 <Southern_Gentlem>	that is highly subjectibe Jul 24 12:31:54 <Sonar_Guy>	after a 15 minute time out. Jul 24 12:32:01 	Southern_Gentlem: but an attack could be construed as calling someone stupid, etc Jul 24 12:32:15 *	nirik is reminded of the guy who came in accusing vilegent of killing JFK or                        something... he was quite the loon. Jul 24 12:32:22 <BobJensen>	jds2001: but that is 75% of the channel at anytime Jul 24 12:32:35 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik said i was the mastermind of the VT shootings Jul 24 12:32:53 	Southern_Gentlem: oh yeah, that was it. Was quite a funny trainwreck. Jul 24 12:32:56 	and a racist Jul 24 12:33:03 <vwbusguy->	BobJensen, and part of the problem Jul 24 12:33:31 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: I again raise the registered nick point Jul 24 12:33:33 	anyhow, what can we do to make the channel more positive ? I don't think kicking out anyone who 'attacks' is gonna be too productive, as it's so subjective. Jul 24 12:33:56 	jabbing at helpless people is just wrong imho Jul 24 12:34:03 	roguedaemon: agreed. Jul 24 12:34:05 <Sonar_Guy>	+1 Jul 24 12:34:08 <Southern_Gentlem>	agreed Jul 24 12:34:28 <vwbusguy->	+1 Jul 24 12:34:33 *	nirik notes that the channel goes to FESCo in about 25min. Jul 24 12:34:37 <BobJensen>	vwbusguy-: I again state that the board enforcing stupid on those of                                us in the channel day in and day out is not fair unless they are going to pull daily shifts Jul 24 12:34:41 <vwbusguy->	BobJensen, I still don't really like that Jul 24 12:35:04 	there is always grey area, like a certain 3 char nick lately, just constantly asking to get jabbed Jul 24 12:35:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	this is really a user of the channel area the ops thingy Jul 24 12:35:36 <BobJensen>	bounce the non registered in to #Fedora-Social where they will get help registering and some basic help at times Jul 24 12:35:58 	how about we add a ops code line like: "Ops should try and discourage personal                        attacks or insults of users in the channel" Jul 24 12:35:59 <vwbusguy->	are we done with te Code of Conduct document then? Jul 24 12:36:16 <vwbusguy->	nirik, +1 Jul 24 12:36:23 <BobJensen>	the old policy of bouncing them in to the muted #fedora-join-instructiuons was stupid from the get go IMO Jul 24 12:36:26 <Southern_Gentlem>	for ops anyways Jul 24 12:36:30 <vwbusguy->	"try to" instead of "try and" Jul 24 12:36:30 	nirik: fair enough Jul 24 12:36:31 *	Sonar_Guy shows all the link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Operators Jul 24 12:36:34 <vwbusguy->	nirik, you hick Jul 24 12:36:42 	BobJensen: (and others): is there a general feeling here (consensus) that the board was wrong? If so, tell them so. Jul 24 12:36:44 *	nirik bows Jul 24 12:36:47 	vwbusguy-: heh Jul 24 12:37:10 <vwbusguy->	(says the guy from indiana) Jul 24 12:37:14 	BobJensen: can you point to unregistered people as being the disruptive ones? I haven't noticed that. Jul 24 12:37:32 	nirik: i just wanted to see it mentioned somewhere so people will be mindful Jul 24 12:37:59 <vwbusguy->	As of now, I don't see any merit to registered nicks only Jul 24 12:38:13 <vwbusguy->	like locks only keep honest people out Jul 24 12:38:17 <Southern_Gentlem>	rdieter, we feel that it is easy to make rules, when you are not the one on the front line day in and day out Jul 24 12:38:20 <BobJensen>	rdieter: nearly anyone that spends a fair amount of time in the channel has seen a decrease in the users skill, it could be part of the ubuntu exodus also Jul 24 12:38:31 	BobJensen: i think so Jul 24 12:38:33 <Sonar_Guy>	Ok added Ops should try to discourage personal attacks or insults of users in the channel. Jul 24 12:39:06 	Southern_Gentlem, +1 Jul 24 12:39:10 <BobJensen>	rdieter: it just makes the giving help a lot harder, having a level 1 entry point would help a lot Jul 24 12:39:11 	BobJensen: hey, I'm not disagreeing with you, but it sounds like you (and possibly                                others) are unhappy with that decision. If that is the case, just saying so here isn't going to affect any change. Jul 24 12:39:34 <BobJensen>	rdieter: I do understand where you are coming from Jul 24 12:40:14 	Sonar_Guy: ok, with that I am happy with it (at least as far as I can think of now)...                        should we get all current ops to look it over and then see about accepting it next week? or post to mailing list(s) about it? thoughts? Jul 24 12:40:20 	curious, what did the board say exactly: edict: thou shalt not require registration, or please try unregisterred and see how it goes? Jul 24 12:40:37 <BobJensen>	rdieter: I am not sure if there is a consensus, that is why I think it at least needs to be discussed before going to the board Jul 24 12:40:52 	rdieter: it was just something in the minutes. I never heard what prompted it. Jul 24 12:41:04 *	Sonar_Guy reminds all to review https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Operators and bring up any other changes at the next meeting. Jul 24 12:41:11 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik lowering the entry point stuff Jul 24 12:41:28 	to quote the minutes: "   *  The Board voted to open #fedora channel on IRC to no longer                        require registration of nicks. This is seen as a major hurdle for new people who don't                         know anything about IRC. ACTION ITEM: Dennis Gilmore to survey needs on IRC in terms of                         fostering better care for new users (i.e. social needs) and assessing technical needs. Jul 24 12:41:28 	" Jul 24 12:41:41 	so, we could bug dgilmore about it. ;) Jul 24 12:41:41 	 /quit Jul 24 12:41:44 <BobJensen>	rdieter: the old policy was to harsh, users were bounced in to a channel where                                they could not even ask how to get help registering their nicks. Jul 24 12:41:51 	BobJensen: nod Jul 24 12:42:41 	and the bad seeds still get in anyway Jul 24 12:42:48 <vwbusguy->	ok, I like how the documents are coming Jul 24 12:42:53 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Progress report Jul 24 12:42:55 <BobJensen>	roguedaemon: yeah the bad ones are easy to deal with Jul 24 12:42:56 <vwbusguy->	Are we done for today? Jul 24 12:43:13 	anyone have thoughts on if things are improving or not? and how can we improve things more? Jul 24 12:43:15 	if im bound and determined to cause trouble, registering a nick is not a huge hurdke Jul 24 12:43:44 <vwbusguy->	well, that's my point about registering.  Trolls are not necessarily ignorant. Jul 24 12:43:46 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: it is getting better day by day Jul 24 12:43:47 <BobJensen>	I think the "level 1 support" that can happen in an open channel like #Fedora-Social would help us out a lot Jul 24 12:43:48 	vwbusguy-: yeah, almost. Want to see if there are any progress comments/ideas or any other topics before we close Jul 24 12:43:55 <vwbusguy->	registering will just keep newbs out, but not the trolls Jul 24 12:44:15 <BobJensen>	causing trouble is not the problem Jul 24 12:44:30 <BobJensen>	it does help slow them down how ever Jul 24 12:44:38 	ok. so when's the opslist getting updated? i nominate daMaestro, Khaytsus, Edgan (nightowl), and myself Jul 24 12:44:50 	registering keeps the adbots out more I suspect, but otherwise doesn't matter too much. Jul 24 12:44:53 <vwbusguy->	I don't even think that is a problem right now Jul 24 12:44:58 	just a thought: if chatting is moved to -social, would there be delays in level 1 support? Jul 24 12:45:03 *	Sonar_Guy seconds zcat motion Jul 24 12:45:28 <BobJensen>	mock: many of us are in -Social also and are willing to help with the basic crud there I think Jul 24 12:45:34 	ok Jul 24 12:45:41 	nirik: i think its been pretty good atmosphere wise, but we need to keep looking at easier ways of answering the common questions Jul 24 12:45:41 	 /chanserv #fedora access list    shows a few i've never seen. Jul 24 12:45:43 	zcat: fine with me. How about we ping all the ops and update next weeks meeting if there are no objections? Jul 24 12:46:06 	i would like thomasj added to the nominee list also Jul 24 12:46:06 	roguedaemon: yeah, we could start putting together requirements for a bot perhaps. Jul 24 12:46:24 	roguedaemon: or make a wiki page with the "top 10" Jul 24 12:46:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	zcat and i would like to add kanarip to that list as well Jul 24 12:46:35 	+1 to kanarip Jul 24 12:46:40 <Southern_Gentlem>	and thomasj Jul 24 12:46:41 	+1 Jul 24 12:46:45 	aye Jul 24 12:46:47 <Sonar_Guy>	+1 to all Jul 24 12:46:54 <vwbusguy->	+1 for kanarip Jul 24 12:47:06 <BobJensen>	+1 to anyone willing Jul 24 12:47:10 	lol Jul 24 12:47:13 	and zcat and daMaestro - i dont really know the others :) Jul 24 12:47:15 <Southern_Gentlem>	kanarip and thomasj are eastern hemisphere Jul 24 12:47:17 	ok, so total list is: daMaestro, kanarip, thomasj, Edgan, zcat ? Jul 24 12:47:34 <daMaestro>	yeah, i've had only a few occasions where it would have been useful Jul 24 12:47:42 <Khaytsus>	zcat: You're not already op? Jul 24 12:47:44 <BobJensen>	kanarip and thomasj are fine individuals Jul 24 12:47:45 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: and Khaytsus, Jul 24 12:47:50 <vwbusguy->	I don't know Edgan but the others, yes Jul 24 12:48:02 	Khaytsus, nope. i'm cyborg. Jul 24 12:48:03 <daMaestro>	i can do OP shifts while @ work... so 8-6 MDT/MST Jul 24 12:48:04 	Sonar_Guy: oh yeah, sorry I missed. ;( Jul 24 12:48:06 <daMaestro>	;-) Jul 24 12:48:11 <daMaestro>	i just need a ping Jul 24 12:48:11 <Sonar_Guy>	np Jul 24 12:48:11 <Khaytsus>	zcat: Domo arigato. Jul 24 12:48:13 	heh i thought zcat was for the longest time Jul 24 12:48:39 	since there are some ops not here, how about we ping them in a memo/something and                        update list next week if there are no objections? Jul 24 12:48:57 <BobJensen>	nirik: +1 Jul 24 12:49:03 *	nirik is fine with more folks. Would be nice to have 24x7 coverage Jul 24 12:49:07 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: +1 Jul 24 12:49:23 ---	stickster_food is now known as stickster Jul 24 12:49:30 	ok, I will memo them and we will update next week. Jul 24 12:49:33 	Any other items? Jul 24 12:49:44 *	vwbusguy- is a little interested in being an op, but wants to see if he can commit                         the time. Jul 24 12:49:44 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Open Floor Jul 24 12:49:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik and we need to clean the list of the other people as well Jul 24 12:50:00 	Southern_Gentlem: yeah, I heard back from a few, but lots didn't respond. Jul 24 12:50:13 <Southern_Gentlem>	no reply they need to be dropped Jul 24 12:50:39 <BobJensen>	Southern_Gentlem: +1 Jul 24 12:50:42 *	nirik wonders if we shouldn't also have more folks as ops in #fedora-social... but I guess there isn't really anything off topic there that would result in a ban. Jul 24 12:50:58 	ok, thanks everyone for coming. See you next week same time. Jul 24 12:50:59 	but there is Jul 24 12:51:05 <BobJensen>	nirik: I think the same as in #fedora would be the right thing to do for now Jul 24 12:51:08 	nirik: it has potential to turn into a smashfest in there sometimes though Jul 24 12:51:08 	Drop by #fedora-ops for more discussion. Jul 24 12:51:12 	like outright obscentitym etc Jul 24 12:51:17 	yeah, I suppose so. Jul 24 12:51:53 <Southern_Gentlem>	there are 4 ops listed in social Jul 24 12:51:56 	yeah. Jul 24 12:52:01 <Southern_Gentlem>	one quit 2 years ago Jul 24 12:52:07 <Khaytsus>	nirik: Are the fedora ops op in all Fedora rooms? Jul 24 12:52:07 	cds, ivazquez, spot, kushal Jul 24 12:52:14 *	vwbusguy- thinks Fedora-social should not be enforced (yet) Jul 24 12:52:15 	Khaytsus: no. Jul 24 12:52:22 <Khaytsus>	nirik: Too much maintenance? Jul 24 12:52:27 	Khaytsus: they all have different lists. Jul 24 12:52:28 	vwbusguy-: i swear every other word in real life :) Jul 24 12:52:43 	Khaytsus: someday it would be nice to tie into the fas system. Jul 24 12:52:56 <vwbusguy->	nirik, I was thinking about that Jul 24 12:53:08 <Khaytsus>	nirik: Yeah.  I mean, if all were ops in all Fedora rooms, if there were                                 a problem they could join said room if they don't idle there... Jul 24 12:53:21 <vwbusguy->	nirik, it would make a LOT of sense to have helpers and ops through FAS Jul 24 12:53:30 *	nirik nods Jul 24 12:54:03 	Khaytsus: yeah, they are all seperate lists right now tho. Well, I guess spot has                        superpowers and can be ops on #fedora*, but thats the only exception I know of. Jul 24 12:54:27 	ok folks, lets bring up fedora-social next week? Jul 24 12:54:28 	6 minutes left Jul 24 12:54:39 *	Southern_Gentlem move to adjoin Jul 24 12:54:47 	adjourn? Jul 24 12:54:53 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - END MEETING.