Extras/SteeringCommittee/Meeting-20060316

Summary
Present from FESCo: thl, warren, jeremy, scop, skvidal, Anvil, ensc

Important topics:


 * Mass rebuild of Extras for FC5
 * 69 packages still need a rebuild; ensc has a script that will file bugs for those
 * we'll remove all the old packages that are obsoleted by a newer version when branching FE5. Additionally, in the future we'll only keep the newest version of a package in the devel tree and remove the older ones directly -- just as it is done in rawhide. For supported distros the nothing changes (e.g. the newest package and one older package)
 * Try to fix broken deps in FE5 before FC5 is published; If that's not possible we'll consider removing packages with broken deps
 * Split fedora-extras-list
 * warren> I'm moving ahead with the transition of the fedora-extras list thing within the next week
 * Kernel module standardization
 * some test builds for FE5 worked wine; we'll see what happens if people start to use those
 * building for ppc64 not that easy; thl will look at it
 * EOL Policy for FE
 * thl plans to bring that forward after FC5
 * Extras to handle multilib
 * Core is working on a proper solution that we might adopt for Extras in the longer term. Until then we'll ignore multilib mostly. Special exception: wine. wine.x86_64 doesn't make that much sense atm and many people requested wine.i386 in the x86-64-repo. We'll allow that by manually copying it (and the needed deps) over. Request for copying via FC[3-5] Status-pages in the wiki. No other exceptions should slip in, otherwise it will get unmanageable with this manual way.

Full Log
18:59           --> | Sopwith (Undisclosed)  has joined #fedora-extras 19:00           --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo Meeting in progress 19:00 <        thl> | Hello everyone 19:00 <    skvidal> | hi 19:00 <         thl> | who's around? 19:00 <    skvidal> | I am 19:00 <      jeremy> | hi thorsten! :) 19:00 <     warren> | hi 19:01            --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo Meeting in progress -- Mass rebuild of Extras for FC5 19:01 <     roozbeh> | warren: i have went through the whole thing, i know. but lemme test and see what happens. i will contact you again if i found you were wrong ;) 19:01 <        thl> | okay, current status 19:01 <        thl> | 69 packages still need a rebuild 19:01 <        thl> | I just posted about some orphans to extras-list 19:01           --> | JSchmitt (Jochen Schmitt)  has joined #fedora-extras 19:01 <        thl> | is it okay for everybody if we remove them before FE5 is live? 19:01 <      ensc> | thl: my mass-bz script seems to work... 19:02 <       ensc> | (finished 1 minute ago ;) ) 19:02 <         thl> | hey, ensc, that'sgreat 19:02 <     warren> | thl, i'm rebuilding my packages 19:02 <         thl> | warren, thx 19:02 <     roozbeh> | is owen taylor's package still not rebuilt? it is practically orphaned, since he told me he doesn't have the extras build env anymore 19:03 <     roozbeh> | libuniname or sth 19:03 <         thl> | roozbeh, seems someone build it afaics 19:03 <     roozbeh> | ok, nice to hear 19:03 <         thl> | I take the silence as "yes, remove those if no one complains on the list in the next 24 hours" 19:04 <     jeremy> | thl: sounds good to me 19:04 <    roozbeh> | thl: lovely 19:04 <         thl> | k 19:04 <         thl> | for the 69 still not rebuild 19:04            <-- | roozbeh has quit ("Leaving") 19:04 <         thl> | ensc, can you test you script with those? 19:04 <         thl> | some bugs are files already 19:05 <        thl> | look at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/FC5Status before you run it 19:05 <       ensc> | thl: do you have a wording for the bugzilla comment? 19:05 <        thl> | no 19:05 <         thl> | just write down some line that might fit 19:06 <        thl> | and link to the initial rebuild announcment 19:06 <        thl> | next one regarding that topic 19:06 <        thl> | jeremy said branching of extras should happen soon 19:06 <       ensc> | do we have a tracker bug? 19:07 <        thl> | ensc, yeah, FE5TRACKER iirc 19:07 <    jeremy> | thl: yeah, I'm looking into what all is needed to have the branching not be a disaster now 19:07           --> | scop (Ville Skytta)  has joined #fedora-extras 19:07 <        thl> | there was one more thing regarding FE5 that came up: 19:08 <        thl> | shall we remove all the old packages that are opsoleted by a newer version? 19:08 <      Anvil> | scop : hello 19:08 <        thl> | I think we should 19:08             * | scop blushes, late again 19:08 <    warren> | thl, yes 19:09 <        thl> | anyone around who thinks that's a bad idea ? 19:09 <     jeremy> | sounds good to me 19:09 <     Sopwith> | Yes, we should. 19:09 <        thl> | jeremy, can you do that yourself with repoquery? 19:10 <        thl> | btw, I'm wondering if we should use a similar tactic for the extras/devel tree in general 19:10 <    jeremy> | thl: I can figure something out 19:10 <        thl> | e.g. just like rawhide 19:10 <        thl> | only the newes package is available, old ones get deleted immediately 19:10 <        thl> | less space on the servers and easier to manage 19:10 <        thl> | jeremy, thx 19:11 <        thl> | other opions on that tactic for extras/devel/ ? 19:11 <     jeremy> | I'm not against it 19:11 <         thl> | s/opions/opinions / 19:12 <     warren> | Does that make repocreate and repoview faster? 19:12 <       scop> | works4me for devel 19:12 <        thl> | warren, maybe, not sure 19:12 <       scop> | probably somewhat 19:13 <        thl> | okay, so we change that in devel after the FE5 tree was created? 19:13 <        thl> | skvidal, can you change the script accordingly? 19:13 <        thl> | Or is that a complicated? 19:14 <       scop> | not complicated, I can take care of it 19:14 <         thl> | scop, thx 19:14 <        thl> | okay 19:15 <        thl> | are there any other things regarding Mass rebuild/FE5 that need discussing? 19:15 <        thl> | otherwise it might be to late 19:15 <     warren> | Are we removing things not rebuilt, or filing bugs? 19:15 <        thl> | warren, filing bugs 19:16 <        thl> | k, moving on 19:16 <      warren> | I'm moving ahead with the transition of the fedora-extras list thing within the next week 19:16 <        thl> | :) 19:16 <         thl> | thx warren, that was on my "ask warren list" 19:16            --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Kernel module standardization 19:17 <         thl> | scop, any news? 19:17 <         thl> | building the modules worked fine afaics 19:17 <        scop> | the test builds look pretty much ok 19:17 <         thl> | k 19:17 <         thl> | I'll rebuild some other modules with the new same in the next days 19:18 <         thl> | we'll see what happens if people start to use those 19:18            --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting --  EOL Policy for FE 19:18 <         thl> | any news on this one? 19:18 <        scop> | I added ppc64 and ppc64iseries to lirc-kmod just to test, but the build is stuck in buildsys 19:18 <        scop> | (sorry, still on kmods) 19:18 <         thl> | scop, np 19:18 <        scop> | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/185387 19:19 <       scop> | I'm done now, please proceed :) 19:19 <         thl> | warren, can you poke dcbw to look at #185387 19:19 <         thl> | kernel-modules for ppc64 sound like a good idea 19:19 <         thl> | ppc64iseries seems no that important to me for now ;-) 19:20 <     warren> | yeah 19:20 <        thl> | that can wait some weeks if that's more complicated 19:20 <        thl> | k 19:20 <         thl> | so back to EOL 19:20 <     jeremy> | ppc64 in general may be complicated :-/ 19:20 <     warren> | would you really be using lirc on ppc64*? 19:20 <       scop> | no 19:20            --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- kmods and ppc64 19:20 <       scop> | O 19:20 <         thl> | jeremy, why? 19:20 <       scop> | oops 19:20 <     warren> | then why build it there? 19:21 <       scop> | I have repeatedly mentioned on the extras list that I'm testing the infrastructure with these builds 19:21 <       scop> | and that I will remove the packages from the repo before FC5 19:21 <    jeremy> | thl: for core, all ppc64 builds happen in a full ppc64 buildroot. we don't do a ppc64 release, and I'm not 100% sure that things will just work in a mixed env 19:22             * | thl thinks about that for a moment 19:22 <     warren> | We don't publish FC5 ppc64 19:22 <        thl> | we'll probably have to look at that closer and fix it after FE5 19:22 <     warren> | there is no easy way of making a FC5 ppc64 buildroot 19:22 <        thl> | not nice, but that's life 19:23 <     warren> | I personally wouldn't worry about ppc64 kernel modules 19:23 <        thl> | jeremy, any idea how that could be solved without a complete ppc64 tree? 19:23 <     warren> | ppc itself is less than 1% of our users, and they will continue to shrink 19:23 <        thl> | I have access to a ppc64 machine with plague on it 19:23 <         thl> | I'll try to take a look 19:24 <    jeremy> | thl: it might work. it's worth trying, but I just don't know if it will work 19:24 <        thl> | maybe I can get it running somehow 19:24 <     jeremy> | and if it doesn't, I'm not sure if there's much we can do :-/ 19:24 <        thl> | jeremy, k, that's life 19:24 <        thl> | okay, anything else? 19:24           --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting --  EOL Policy for FE 19:24 <         thl> | okay, back to this one 19:25 <        thl> | I plan to bring that forward after FE5 19:25 <        thl> | there was to much todo in the last weeks 19:25 <        thl> | Sorry for that 19:25 <     warren> | Did we decide on anything regarding this topic earlier? I'm fuzzy. 19:25 <        thl> | no, we didn't yet 19:25 <        thl> | the only thing we said was: 19:26 <        thl> | No new branches for FE3 in cvs 19:26 <        thl> | but they are created nevertheless iirc 19:26 <        thl> | no big deal 19:26 <     warren> | I personally want one server utilty that I use added to FE3... 19:26 <     warren> | but never had a chance to package it yet 19:27 <        thl> | okay, then let's ignore that for now 19:27           --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting --   Encourage Extras reviews 19:27 <        thl> | any new ideas? 19:27 <     warren> | heard any progress from Hans on the security thing? 19:27 <    warren> | thl, nothing new, only need to improve documentation, no different than before. This is largely my responsibility. 19:28 <        thl> | warren, no, didn't hear anything from hans 19:28 <        thl> | I'll try to drive that forward together with the EOL thing 19:29           --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting --  Broken deps report 19:29 <        thl> | mschwendt not around 19:29 <        thl> | let's skip it 19:29 <      warren> | he posted stuff to the list 19:29 <     warren> | like we agreed last week, broken deps are a bigger problem than not rebuilt packages 19:29 <        thl> | yeah, but I think it needs a bit imporving 19:30 <        thl> | and it should run on one of our severs automatically 19:30             * | warren goes to poke the owner of at-poke 19:30 <        thl> | yeah, there are still some broken deps 19:32 <        thl> | do we want to step up to fix those? 19:32 <        thl> | file bugs today, if no one steps up until saturday to fix the deps 19:33 <        thl> | then sponsors can fix it 19:33 <      warren> | I'd say just go ahead and fix them 19:33 <     warren> | file bugs if they aren't obvious 19:33 <        thl> | anyone interested in doing the actuall work? 19:34           <-- | Foolish has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:35 <        thl> | okay, I'll try to do that 19:35 <        thl> | for those interested 19:35 <        thl> | the list of broken deps is at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-March/msg01368.html 19:35 <        thl> | warren, can you handle at-poke? 19:35 <      scop> | thl, no need to file bugs about any kmod-* 19:36 <        thl> | scop, sure :) 19:36 <     warren> | thl, yes 19:36 <     warren> | thl, I think we need to remove it for now, upstream is just broken 19:36 <         thl> | the same holds true for pam_mount 19:36 <      warren> | I'll figure something out. 19:36 <      warren> | If it is broken, just remove it. 19:36 <         thl> | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=174190 19:37 <       scop> | thl, and cernlib and paw will be removed from x86_64/devel, there's a request in the FC5Status page 19:37 <         thl> | scop, they were removed already 19:37 <        scop> | ah 19:38 <         thl> | does anyone know why the *imap* packages are not build? 19:38 <      warren> | "imap" itself? 19:38 <         thl> | warren, cyrus-imapd-murder cyrus-imapd-nntp up-imapproxy 19:39 <      warren> | murder and nntp are not listed in owners 19:39 <         thl> | well, I'll try to take care of those 19:39 <        thl> | let's proceed 19:40           --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting --  Weekly sponsorship nomination 19:40 <        thl> | anyone? 19:41           --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting --  comps.xml for Extras 19:41 <        thl> | jeremy, is that working fine? 19:41 <        thl> | can I remove it from the schedule now? 19:41 <    jeremy> | thl: seems to be 19:41 <     jeremy> | thl: still need to make it automatic, but manual is okay for now 19:41 <        thl> | jeremy, okay 19:41           --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting --  Extras to handle multilib 19:42 <        thl> | anybody interested to drive this forward 19:42 <     warren> | I personally don't thiun+ 19:42 <     warren> | think it is worth it 19:42 <      warren> | I mean, for what purpose? 19:42 <        thl> | wine.i386 for x86_64? 19:42 <    jeremy> | thl: we have to tackle it at some point 19:42 <     warren> | oh 19:43 <         thl> | jeremy, agreed 19:43           <-- | Sopwith has quit (Connection timed out) 19:43 <    warren> | thl, I was thinking more the example given on the list where something was trying to build against both glibc 64bit and 32bit 19:43 <    jeremy> | thl: but at the same time, I think trying to before we come up with a good way to do it automatically for core is probably just asking for trouble :-/ 19:43 <        thl> | warren, that's a core problem mostly ;-) 19:43 <      jeremy> | notting and I want to kill the way we're currently doing it for fc6, though, so it may be possible soon 19:43              * | jeremy notes that we want to fix that too ;) 19:44 <        thl> | jeremy, okay 19:44 <        thl> | but could we find a interrim solution for wine? 19:44 <        thl> | simply a small script that checks for a new wine 19:44 <        thl> | and copies it over from the i386 repo to the x86_64 repo 19:45 <        thl> | that would be a start 19:45 <        thl> | it seems many people ask for wine.i386 in the x86_64 repo 19:45 <     jeremy> | we could do the same sort of hack we do for core 19:45 <     jeremy> | which is a text file listing "multilib packages" and then we depsolve 19:46 <     jeremy> | but that'll require some complication to how the extras push stuff works 19:46 <        thl> | :-/ 19:46 <        thl> | would a manual process work for now? 19:46 <        thl> | that seems a lot easier 19:46 <        thl> | scop ? 19:47 <       scop> | the FCxStatus wiki pages would work sufficiently well if it's only wine 19:47 <        thl> | k; then I suggest we do it like that 19:47 <        thl> | or does anyone dislike the idea? 19:47 <    skvidal> | it's more error prone 19:47 <        thl> | wine has nearly no i386 deps in extras iirc 19:48 <    skvidal> | jeremy: one problem 19:48 <        thl> | skvidal, let's try it for now and see how it works 19:48 <        thl> | skvidal, what okay? 19:48 <    skvidal> | if an i386 pkg in extras requires an i386 pkg from core that's not in the x86_64 tree in core 19:49 <    skvidal> | we've got no way to make it available in core 19:49 <        thl> | skvidal, I checked that for wine some weeks ago 19:49 <    skvidal> | not just talking about wine 19:49 <    skvidal> | for any pkg 19:49 <        thl> | for any pkg: sure 19:49 <        thl> | but the manual process would be only for wine atm 19:50             * | skvidal knows how manual processes tend to get out of hand, quickly. 19:50 <        thl> | that would force us to find a proper solution ;-) 19:51 <         thl> | okay: manual process for wine: some yes/+1 or no please 19:51 <      jeremy> | I'm okay with it for now I guess 19:51 <         thl> | I'M okay with it for now, too 19:52 <         thl> | scop, ensc, skvidal ? 19:52 <         thl> | warren ? 19:52 <     skvidal> | I'll live, sure. 19:52 <     skvidal> | just wanted to give a bit of a warning :) 19:52 <       scop> | sure, still works for me 19:52 <        scop> | btw it should be very trivially scriptable too 19:52 <        thl> | k, then we do it like that 19:52 <       ensc> | I do not like manual ways 19:52 <        thl> | scop, feel free to make it scriptable 19:53 <        thl> | ensc, the goal is to have a proper solution in hte near future 19:53 <        thl> | I think we all agree on that 19:53 <       scop> | I'll take a look while tweaking the scripts for post-FE5 devel 19:53 <        thl> | scop, thx 19:53 <        thl> | k, let's move on 19:53 <        ensc> | such temporary hacks tend to become permanent... 19:53             * | skvidal gasps 19:54 <        thl> | ensc, doing things somehow sometimes is better then doing nothing 19:54 <    skvidal> | I, umm, agree with ensc 19:54 <        thl> | ensc, skvidal, okay 19:54 <        thl> | can you work out a proper solution in... let's say, three weeks? 19:54 <   skvidal> | thl: hold on 19:55 <    skvidal> | thl: I didn't say no 19:55 <     skvidal> | I just said we need to keep it in mind 19:55 <    skvidal> | :) 19:55            <-- | jeremy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:55 <         thl> | :) 19:55 <       scop> | what would such a proper solution consist of, apart from making it automatic? 19:55 <   skvidal> | thl: so +1 for doing something and +1 for keeping an eye on it 19:55 <      warren> | well, jeremy did say he needs to design a proper solution for Core 19:55 <    skvidal> | scop: well we need to solve the core/extras problem for i386 pkgs needed from core 19:55 <     warren> | we could adopt that when it happens 19:55           --> | jeremy (Jeremy Katz)  has joined #fedora-extras 19:55 <       scop> | okay 19:55 <        thl> | warren, sounds like a plan 19:56 <        thl> | okay, so "manual processes for wine and keep an eye on it" 19:56           --- | thl has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion 19:56 <        thl> | anything? 19:56 <    skvidal> | I like brocolli 19:57 <     warren> | skvidal, me too. 19:57             * | skvidal waits for spot to chime in about pork 19:57 <        thl> | just for the record 19:57 <        thl> | there are some issues I'd like to solve soon 19:57 <    skvidal> | okay 19:57 <        thl> | but I'll post to the lists directly about it 19:57 <     skvidal> | cool 19:58           --> | adrianr (Adrian Reber)  has joined #fedora-extras 19:58 <        thl> | I hope to find more time for such stuff when FC5 is out 19:58 <        thl> | okay 19:58             * | thl will close the meeting in 30 19:58 <     warren> | gotta go to another meeting 19:58             * | thl will close the meeting in 15 19:58 <        thl> | warren, bye 19:59             * | thl will close the meeting in 5 19:59 <        thl> | MARK meeting end 19:59 <        thl> | thanks everyone