Start.fpo redesign

This page is a dump of ideas, problems, and proposed solutions for start.fpo redesign.

Mailing list thread: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2011-March/018472.html


 * Problem: Too much visual clutter in the current version it's good, but too messy to be a start page.
 * On one hand we want to keep it simple, fast and clean, on the other hand we want to fill it with useful content, too
 * The footer creates a lot of clutter. it looks good on long pages like in fp.o, but in really short pages, it doesn't look so good
 * But on the other hand, it contains every link you need to find out more about the Fedora Project and is a great starting point
 * Do users really need all those links? won't links to download, documentation, the wiki and the planet be sufficient?
 * We are trying to keep the footer consistent
 * A minimal version of the footer?
 * The page doesn't have a clear function
 * Should it be used for searching the web? a starting point for potential contributors? a landing point after your first installation with help and getting started guides?
 * Something similar to how FF has a splash page when you update the browser (similar to the "1 page release notes")?
 * That would only be useful for new users
 * Possible content: offer the users guides and ways to get help in a friendly graphical way (see mockup)
 * Feeds creates lot of visual clutter.
 * Possible solutions: show only titles/headlines?
 * Drop start.fpo entirely?
 * Using Google is a problem, it's a soft endorsement of a closed source application.

Mockups & Screenshots:
Currently, start.fpo looks like this:



See also: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Vinz/Projects



The complete discussion:
(11:54:07) elad661: I really think that start.fpo has too much visual clutter. i'd suggest taking https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Vinz-startfedoraproject-v3.png this mockup (11:54:07) elad661: and adding just the title of the latest announcement (11:54:28) elad661: what do you think? (11:54:49) schendje: elad661: you're probably right :) (11:55:56) elad661: and my pkgdb/wiki search would also fit. (although it needs some server-side python magic to work without JS) (11:57:05) schendje_: elad661: i really like your idea, but that's another thing we have to add to the page (11:57:29) elad661: that's why i think Vinz's mockup is better (11:57:29) schendje_: we need to somehow balance the content (11:57:45) schendje_: on one hand we want to keep it simple, fast and clean (11:57:58) schendje_: on the other hand we want to fill it with useful content, too (11:58:22) schendje_: there's been talk of a redesigned startpage and its relevance for a looong time now, also by the Board (AFAIK) (11:58:56) schendje_: there hasn't been any decision or plan for its content AFAIK, so we were just mucking about with this new page :) (11:59:43) elad661: the footer creates a lot of clutter in my opinion. it looks good on long pages like in fp.o, but in really short pages, it doesn't look so good (12:00:20) schendje_: elad661: it's massive, for sure (12:00:42) schendje_: but on the other hand, it contains every link you need to find out more about the Fedora Project and is a great starting point (12:02:02) elad661: the question is, do users really need all those link? links to download, documentation, the wiki and the planet is sufficient in my opinion (12:02:18) elad661: /s/link/links (12:02:29) schendje_: that could very well be true (12:02:48) schendje_: i'm honestly not sure what to do (12:03:03) schendje_: I think one of the problems is that the page doesn't have a clear function (12:03:12) elad661: +1 (12:03:30) schendje_: should it be used for searching the web? a starting point for potential contributors? a landing point after your first installation with help and getting started guids? (12:03:36) schendje_: could be a bunch of stuff, really''' (12:03:45) schendje_: should it be there at all? is another good question :) (12:04:06) schendje_: especially since several browsers are now creating/using their own start pages (12:04:20) elad661: yes, FF4's about:home is awesome (12:04:47) schendje_: elad661: ohhh i hadn't seen that one yet! neat :) (12:05:28) schendje_: anyway, so here's what I thought about the start page when I started this redesign (12:05:42) schendje_: so we had the redesigned www.fpo and it was almost done (12:06:08) schendje_: and someone (maybe me, probably someone else) brought up that start.fpo had to be changed in order to fit this new design (12:06:31) schendje_: I said I could give it a shot, made a few mockups and started building it (12:06:41) schendje_: it looked pretty much like the current one, just without the feeds (12:07:04) schendje_: my idea was: nobody knows what's going on with this page, but the current one is really old and anything will be an improvement, really (12:07:30) schendje_: also: since nobody knew what a good plan would be, I decided to simply retain the content and only make changes to the visual design (12:08:23) schendje_: then we added the feeds, after some discussion of whether it would be worth the space (12:09:23) elad661: maybe we should detect if it's the first time the user is in the page (using cookies or webstorage), (12:09:23) elad661: and if it's the first time, offer him guides and ways to get help in a friendly graphical way (maybe pandas?) (12:09:39) schendje_: and a few weeks ago (I'm not sure how long the new page has been up yet) apparently the mockup I built got pulled in and it appeared on the web (12:10:03) schendje_: so it's actually half incidental that this new design is up there at all :) (12:11:02) schendje_: elad661: I think that's a good idea to send to the Design ML after I've started a topic there :) (12:11:29) elad661: if we add the "help pandas", and they are small enough, we could make them stay until the user decides to hide them (12:11:35) schendje_: uhuh (12:11:52) schendje_: mention the pandas to Mo and she'll be on board right away ;) (12:12:23) schendje_: elad661: anyway, I've got to stop talking now :D (12:12:30) elad661: i really think that we should use Vinz's mockup as a base and drop the current design (it's good, but too messy to be a start page) (12:12:41) schendje_: this is pretty much all I know about start.fpo, I need to go do some actual school work now ;) (12:12:49) schendje_: elad661: definitely possible (12:12:53) schendje_: I'm fine with anything, really Elad showed his mockup to Sijis: (16:19:41) sijis: elad661: looks good. however, we are trying to keep the footer consistent across all the sites. (16:20:01) elad661: the footer is too massive for such small page (16:20:16) elad661: and it creates too much visual clutter (16:20:27) sijis: elad661: i'd also be curious to know how to pull off searching pkgdb and wiki in 1 search bar (16:21:01) sijis: elad661: true on the footer. but, i'd still like to keep somethign like that around.. even if its a minimal one. (16:21:27) elad661: sijis: now i'm using JS... but it needs some server side script that will read the value of the radio button and redirect the user to the right search (16:41:43) sijis: elad661: i currently see start.fp.o looking more like 'search.fp.o'. i'm not sure that's the right approach for that site (17:07:44) sijis: elad661: actually, my thought recently has been closer to "1 page release notes".. something similar to how FF has a splash page when you update the browser (17:08:11) elad661: but that would be useful only for new users (17:08:32) sijis: so it would be start.fp.o/f15 and then there it would have some info like this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_one_page_release_notes (17:10:29) sijis: otherwise, i see no purpose and we should just point to fp.o and not worry about start.fp.o anymore (17:19:28) mizmo_: i honestly think start.fpo is pretty useless (17:19:40) mizmo_: people change their homepage or just start with a search or URL in mind (17:19:48) mizmo_: if start.fpo is still using google search that's also a problem (17:19:54) mizmo_: because its a soft endorsement of a closed source app (17:21:21) sijis: mizmo_: i think we talked about it briefly. but what about using it similar to FF update notices .. sorta like a 1 page release notes. (17:21:41) mizmo_: yeh that would be useful i think (17:21:44) sijis: i do agree though, most folks are just gonna change that homepage to something they find more useful to them (17:22:06) mizmo_: they'll see the release notes the first couple of times, when it's useful, then they''ll just change it (17:22:07) sijis: most = like 95% +

(17:35:39) sijis: however, what's the purpose of start.fp.o new or existing users? i personally feel its for 'new users'. if its existing users, they are going somewhere else to find their info. i do think it would be nice to show FWN or announce/devel feeds.. however, i don't see it as a blocker if its not there. we have to remember who the target is. (17:39:12) elad661: sijis: we should find a way to encourage new users to contribute, and more importantly offer them help (links to the get-help page, documentation, etc). (17:39:57) elad661: and i guess you are right (17:40:26) elad661: schendje: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign ideas, problems, solutions (17:41:05) schendje: woah, nicely done :) (17:41:16) sijis: elad661: sure, we should encourage contribution and put a 'plug' for it but i don't think that's the right medium for that page. (17:41:38) sijis: meaning, not the purpose for that page. (17:42:13) sijis: i would focus more on 'what does this version offer (see 1 release notes) and how can i get/find help (17:42:45) sijis: lasty, if you want to contribute go over to this page/site/url/ (17:43:07) sijis: that's it. nothing more, nothing less (17:43:54) sijis: then at the bottom hasve a nice big footer that can lead to other places ) (17:44:45) elad661: i guess you're right (17:45:22) schendje: yep mizmo_'s comments sound good to me (17:46:16) elad661: but i still think the pandas would fit nice in there (17:46:16) elad661: and i think we will need a new (seperate) search page that will be able to search all fedora resources... (17:47:45) schendje: elad661: designing a page with a search bar is one thing, actually making a decent search engine for everything Fedora is another (17:47:49) sijis: elad661: sounds like search.fp.o :) (17:48:27) sijis: there was an effort to get a sitewide crawler. its been stagnant for a little bit now (17:48:46) sijis: not just for fp.o but also wiki, pkgdb, etc (17:49:33) elad661: mailing lists archives should also be included in such search engine (17:50:00) elad661: and koji builds, and bodhi updates (17:51:03) sijis: elad661: yeah, i think it was most if not all that. (17:51:14) giallu עזב את החדר (quit: Read error: Operation timed out). (17:51:16) elad661: awesome. (17:51:24) sijis: but there was no clear 'winner' last i remember (17:51:25) schendje: sijis: so basically, if it were up to you, you'd put something like https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_tour there (17:51:33) sijis: the ticket is still in infra trac (17:52:32) sijis: schendje: yup. i was actually poking around for an exmaple and i sorta invisioned this: http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/3.6.15/releasenotes/ (17:52:40) sijis: but you get the general idea (17:52:54) schendje: yes (17:53:23) elad661: sijis: or this: http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/4.0b6/firstrun/ (17:53:31) sijis: then we can go and do something similar like start.fp.o/f15, f16, etc (17:54:20) sijis: elad661: yup. the firstrun stuff. pretty quick and concise info (17:54:54) elad661: Firefox always has robots in those. We should have pandas instead :-) (17:55:01) sijis: lol (17:55:09) sijis: mizmo would love that (17:55:34) schendje: yup, mozilla loves them some robots (17:56:09) elad661: anyway, we should do it as a well-designed static page, and not a boring-looking wiki page (17:56:31) elad661: would be even more awesome if we could get videos like mozilla does (17:56:37) schendje: sijis: so say start.fpo will be changed, who would give the green light for that? (17:57:00) schendje: is that up to the board or fesco or the websites team? (17:57:16) sijis: whatcha mean by 'changed'.. minor fixes or you've completely revamped it? (17:57:30) schendje: well you're talking about a complete revamp, right? (17:58:12) schendje: if we replace the current one with, say, one with release notes or something (17:58:16) schendje: that's a pretty big change (17:58:21) sijis: ya. i think we'd sorta say go/no go.. however, we'll need some backing from design and docs and marketing since they would be providing some of the content