FedoraSummit/SummitIRCLogDay2

04:06             * | f13 tries to remember what to blog 04:06 <        f13> | and of course, gregdek isn't online :/ 04:07           <-- | brezhnev has quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 04:13           --> | tibbs (Jason Tibbitts) [n=tibbs@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 04:13           --> | tibbs (Jason Tibbitts) [n=tibbs@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 04:13           --> | tibbs (Jason Tibbitts) [n=tibbs@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 04:13           --> | tibbs (Jason Tibbitts) [n=tibbs@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 04:20 <   dgilmore> | f13: everything 04:20 <        f13> | hah 04:23 <   dgilmore> | f13: buildsys stuff 04:23 <   dgilmore> | f13: that  i think is a really cool aspect of everything 04:25 <        f13> | yeah, there was a long list of things we need, and greg wrote them down. I don't have them on me. 04:25 <        f13> | I'm blogging more generic which is OK for now. 04:27 <        f13> | dgilmore: where you asking me about subscribing to all Infrastructure/ pages? 04:27 <   dgilmore> | f13: yeah  i think i got it right 04:28 <        f13> | dgilmore: yeah it's Infrastructure/.* 04:28 <        f13> | ah! greg put the list in the wiki. Awesome! 04:29 <   dgilmore> | hmm i think i did Infrastructure/* 04:30 <        f13> | that may work. I just have /.* in my subscription list 04:30 <        f13> | er Legacy/.* or infrastructure/.* 04:32 <   dgilmore> | i changed to add the. 04:32             * | nirik just pulls the rss feed via liferea... handy that way. 04:47 <@greendiseas> | f13: im about to put up my pictures of stuff 04:47 <        f13> | k, I just did a brain flush 04:53           --- | rdieter is now known as rdieter_away 05:09           <-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:16           --- | rdieter_away is now known as rdieter 05:18           --- | rdieter is now known as rdieter_away 05:33           <-- | codergeek42_ has quit ("Ex-Chat") 05:49           --> | mdomschbot (/msg mdomschbot hello) [n=mdomschb@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:58           <-- | mdomschbot has quit (Remote closed the connection) 06:00           --> | mdomschbot (/msg mdomschbot hello) [n=mdomschb@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 06:08           <-- | mdomsch has quit ("Leaving") 06:40           --- | You're now known as thl 07:21           --- | tibbs is now known as tibbs|h 07:35             * | thl wonders if http://spevack.livejournal.com/3986.html needs a s/FAMSO/FESCo/ 07:58           <-- | rdieter_away has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:36           --> | c4chris|w (Christian Iseli) [n=chris@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 11:23           --> | Panzerboy (Unknown) [n=stelian@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 11:39           <-- | pink_trout has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:39 <   jwb_gone> | thl, he might have meant the Fedora Ambassadors project 12:40 <        thl> | ohh, do they meet on thursdays these days, too; then never mind 12:46           <-- | paragn has quit (Remote closed the connection) 12:51           --> | paragn (Unknown) [n=paragn@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 13:25           --> | sbarn (Steve Barnhart) [n=steve@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 13:42           --> | llunved (llunved) [n=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 14:10 <        f13> | thl: could go either way. Rex is supposed to bring stuff up to the FESCo 14:11 <        thl> | f13, yeah, I've read that 14:11 <        thl> | f13, everyone, thx for your work btw 14:23           --- | jwb_gone is now known as jwb 14:24           <-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:50           --> | Lovechild (David Nielsen) [n=david@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:04           --> | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:12 <        jwb> | f13, around? 15:16           --> | dwmw2_PVG (David Woodhouse) [i=ctrlprox@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:42           --> | mdomsch (Matt Domsch) [n=mdomsch@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:47           --> | tibbs (Jason L Tibbitts III) [n=tibbs@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:50           <-- | halfline has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:54           --> | llunved (llunved) [i=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:55           --> | mspevack (Max Spevack) [n=mspevack@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:55           --> | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:55 <   mspevack> | good morning 15:55 <     smooge> | morning 15:55           --> | markmc (Mark McLoughlin) [i=markmc@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:55 <   mspevack> | we've got bill, max, greg, and rex here 15:55 <   mspevack> | waiting for the others 15:56 <   mmcgrath> | mornin 15:56 <     jbowes> | good morning 15:57           --> | nasrat (Paul Nasrat) [n=nasrat@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:57 <        thl> | good {insert local time of time} 15:57 <   mspevack> | hi everyone 15:58 <        thl> | s/time}/date}/ 15:58 <     jbowes> | thl: maybe 'hello' would be easier 15:59 <        jwb> | mspevack, some questions on the arch stuff have popped up. where should we send those? 15:59 <   mspevack> | f-advisory-board, i would say 15:59 <     nasrat> | jwb: you mean what does it mean for MY arch ;) 15:59            --> | pink_trout (Pink Ponies) [n=TroutFis@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:59 <         jwb> | nasrat, yeah but that arch is the only unique one at the moment 15:59            <-- | rdieter has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:00 <         jwb> | nasrat, because it's transitioning from a primary to a secondary 16:00 <         thl> | jbowes, yes, maybe ;) 16:00 <     nasrat> | jwb: odd that only sparc seems to be mentioned then 16:01 <        jwb> | nasrat, yeah. i think the wiki pages needs to point out more clearly what exactly is going to happen to all the arches. especially rawhide... 16:01 <  dwmw2_PVG> | it was suggested that one of the motivations for moving it to secondary was because it was responsible for the slips. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-October/msg00199.html and https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-October/msg00431.html don't seem to support that though 16:02 <  dwmw2_PVG> | we work fairly hard to make sure it doesn't lag. 16:03 <        jwb> | i'm curious as to where these secondary arch packages are hosted in general. do they become part of rawhide off of fp.org? 16:03 <        jwb> | or do they live on some external machine? 16:03 <        jwb> | that was discussed, but i don't see it in the wiki page 16:03             * | thl will drive home now; BBL 16:04 <   mspevack> | now a few more people in the room: 16:04 <  dwmw2_PVG> | Presumably it starts off like Extras -- a second class citizen which nobody really cares about. And then we realise that's not workable when we put our thinking hats on, and try to do something about it, bring it closer. 16:04 <  dwmw2_PVG> | as we're sensibly doing with Extrass 16:04 <   mspevack> | MaxSpevack, GregDeKoenigsberg, BillNottingham, JackAboutboul, RexDieter, WarrenTogami (who has now left to get donuts) 16:04 <   mspevack> | getting closer to quorum 16:04 <   mmcgrath> | yum 16:04 <   mspevack> | JeremyKatz and DaveJones in the house 16:05 <   mspevack> | and JesseKeating 16:05 <     smooge> | doughnuts 16:05 <   mspevack> | so we're likely to start in a few minutes now 16:05 <     smooge> | donuts.. mmmm 16:09 <  dwmw2_PVG> | I think we should deal with the arch build process as a separate issue from the set of arches -- change the process by all means but let it settle down and take stock before then changing the set of architectures 16:09 <  dwmw2_PVG> | anyway, must sleep. 16:09           --- | dwmw2_PVG is now known as dwmw2_zzz 16:09           --> | gregdek (gaim) [n=gdk@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:10 <        jwb> | mspevack, can i create a questions section on the wiki page that can be filled in at a later point in time (soon)? sort of like a FAQ? 16:10 <   mspevack> | jwb: absolutely, please do 16:10 <         jwb> | mspevack, k 16:10 <    mspevack> | ok we're starting ================ 16:11 <   mspevack> | topic the first -- IS/IT, fedora-admin, infrastructure, etc 16:11           --> | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:11 <   mspevack> | mmcgrath: can you call in? 16:11 <   mmcgrath> | yep 16:11 <   mmcgrath> | same number as yesterday? 16:11 <   mspevack> | abadger1999: can you call too? 16:11           <-- | mdomsch [n=mdomsch@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving") 16:11 <   mspevack> | dgilmore: how about you? 16:11           --> | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:12 <        f13> | *yawn* 16:12           --> | mdomsch (Matt Domsch) [n=mdomsch@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:12 <        f13> | jwb: yeah 16:13 <        jwb> | f13, see the ArchPolicy wiki page in about 10 minutes. adding some questions that i've been asked frequently 16:13           --> | craigt (Unknown) [n=cthomas@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:13 <        f13> | jwb: awesome! 16:13 <        f13> | did we put on there that ppc is gone? 16:13 <   mspevack> | mike -- single sign on is moving along pretty well 16:13 <   mspevack> | mike -- some compatability issues 16:13 <        jwb> | f13, no.  sparc is the only thing explicitly mentioned 16:13 <     nasrat> | f13: To ensure that Fedora can be built for any architecture, in a way that doesn't slow down the development for Fedora's Primary Architectures (x86 and x86_64). 16:13 <        f13> | ah 16:14 <         jwb> | f13, and what "gone" means is one of the questions :) 16:14 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: i can make myself available at times 16:14 <         f13> | yeah, "no longer a primary arch" as in the official fedora infrastructure will not build for it nor publish it. 16:15 <      nasrat> | f13: nice to communicate that to developers who have been working on it 16:15 <         jwb> | f13, sure.  but it's easier to answer that in my FAQ section.  just give me a few minutes 16:15 <    mmcgrath> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem2 16:16 <    mmcgrath> | and 16:16 <    mmcgrath> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem2/Schema 16:16 <      nasrat> | f13: so how does that cover say updates, etc to supported.  just dumping an arch from the infrastructure without forethought is sucky 16:16 | mspevack: The conference system tells me the code from yesterday is invalid 16:16 <   mspevack> | ok, we're going to discuss is/it priorities 16:16 <   mspevack> | bill is on the white board: 16:17 <        f13> | nasrat: it was decided yesterday 16:17 <   mspevack> | topics 16:17 <     nasrat> | f13: so when do I get a mail about it 16:17 <      nasrat> | that should have been an action point 16:17 <        f13> | nasrat: it is. chill out 16:18 <        f13> | nasrat: part of the decision was "ok we want to drop this arch, what all do we need to address to make this happen" 16:18 <        f13> | it's not "ok, it's removed from colo/builder configs.  Have fun!" 16:18 <     nasrat> | f13: that's not clear from the wiki, it's basically just ommited 16:18 <   mspevack> | we're starting with the website, fedora.redhat.com 16:18 <   mspevack> | How can we kill it> 16:18 <   mspevack> | 1) get the logs and see what people are using? 16:18 <         jwb> | nasrat, i'm asking those questions in the FAQ.  hopefully they'll get answered soon 16:18 <         jwb> | nasrat, or turned into action items 16:19 <         f13> | nasrat: thanks for pointing that out, we'll fix it. 16:19 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: port everything to fedoraproject.org  and mirror/ loadbalance it 16:19 <   dwmw2_zzz> | so we're going to stop building for _all_ the current rawhide architectures? That's a massively retrograde step for all of them, and _especially_ PPC. 16:19 <   dwmw2_zzz> | and in fact for Fedora in general, without even a big-endian machine in the mix to keep developers honest :) 16:20           --> | davidz (David Zeuthen) [i=davidz@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:20 <    gregdek> | ARCH DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE YET. X86 AND X86_64 ARE CLEARLY PRIMARY. OTHER DISCUSSIONS IN PROGRESS. That is all. :) 16:20 <    gregdek> | That's what it says *proposal*. 16:20 <    mspevack> | the question is -- what do we want for our web presence? 16:20 <    dgilmore> | dwmw2_zzz: ppc and sparc will be thrown in as secondary arches and everything will be built for them. It will be driven by the people wanting those arches 16:20 <      nasrat> | gregdek: well it says it's a Policy 16:20 <   dwmw2_zzz> | gregdek: ok, thanks for clarification (albeit contradiction of what I thought I saw above about 'is gone'). But I really should be sleeping... :) 16:20 <   blizzard> | dwmw2_zzz: go do sleep! 16:21 <   mmcgrath> | https://rhn.redhat.com/rhn/help/channel-mgmt/rhn400/en/ch-custom-pkgs.jsp <-- Has fedora.rh.com links ;-) 16:21 <   dwmw2_zzz> | blizzard: :) 16:21             * | dwmw2_zzz & 16:21 <        jwb> | gregdek, f13, nasrat,, dwmw2_zzz: see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraSummit/ArchPolicy 16:21 <        jwb> | there's an FAQ section now 16:21 <   mspevack> | everything that we did yesterday, and got up on the web is proposals for f-a-b to review, and the community to discuss. 16:21 <   mspevack> | it would be best to collect questions up on the wiki like jwb is doing, or on f-a-b list 16:21 <   mspevack> | since we want to use this channel today to type about what is *currently* being discussed 16:22 <   mspevack> | which right now is our web presence, and what we want it to be 16:22 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: i see our web presence as being fedoraproject.org 16:22             * | thl is back on the keyboard now 16:22 <     jbowes> | mmcgrath: where should that link go instead? I can get it fixed up 16:22 <   mmcgrath> | jbowes: no idea :D 16:22 <   dgilmore> | i guess we will need some redirects from anything fedora.redhat.com for awhile  to find anything extrernel linking there  and have it fixed 16:23 <     jbowes> | mmcgrath: somewhere other than a 404, though 16:23 <   mspevack> | greg -- what do we need that the wiki doesn't provide us? 16:23 <   mspevack> | mmcgrath: it is our most robust site, by far 16:23 <   mspevack> | mike -- the fc6 traffic would have killed the wiki completely 16:24 <   dgilmore> | i think we need some static pages for rarely changing things 16:24 <   dgilmore> | front page should probably be static 16:24 <   mspevack> | blizzard -- is our software choice hurting scalability? 16:25 <   mspevack> | *crickets* 16:25           --- | mizmo-out is now known as mizmo 16:25 <   mspevack> | havoc pennington just walked in 16:25 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: our software choice i dont think is hurting it  but we dont have scalability right now past one box 16:25 <   mspevack> | OH MY GOD, IT'S HAVOC PENNINGTON 16:25 <     jbowes> | *applause* 16:25 <   mspevack> | ok, we're going to have to temporarily table the website discussion and come back to it later 16:26 <   mspevack> | ========== 16:26 <   mspevack> | our 10:00 topic was with pete rowley, of OpenID 16:26 <   mspevack> | to discuss openID, mugshot, and fedora 16:27 <   mspevack> | pete rowley is here, who knows a great amount about openid 16:27 <   mspevack> | and donald fischer, who works on mugshot 16:27 <   mspevack> | donald -- pete was coming by today to talk to us, do some brainstorming about openID in mugshot. 16:28 <   mspevack> | and we've been thinking about using openID or single sign on in fedora 16:28 <   mspevack> | greg -- "goal is to lower barrier of entry to fedora.  right now lots of systems, license agreement, big headache" 16:29 <   mspevack> | greg -- "we're looking for various ways to simplify that and change the way contributions to fedora community work fundamentally 16:29 <    mspevack> | we have an LDAP schema for this on the Fedora end 16:29 <    mspevack> | ultimately, it's a possibility to allow folks working on Fedora to then also easily participate in other projects that use OpenID 16:29 <    mspevack> | greg -- one compelling use case is bugzilla instances talking to each other using OpenID 16:31 <    mspevack> | *donald talks about some of the potential gnome project tie-ins* 16:33 <    mspevack> | donald -- openID can relieve a lot of the infrastructure issues that exist around letting the Fedora community truly collaborate with each other 16:34            --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- current topic is openID, then IS/IT discussion 16:35 <    mspevack> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_id 16:35           --> | corbet (unknown) [n=user@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:35           --> | boudiccas (boudicca) [n=boudicca@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:35 <   blizzard> | http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/OpenID 16:35 <   mspevack> | mike -- with open id integration, should we go full steam ahead with LDAP, or plan how open ID will integrate? 16:36 <   mspevack> | pete -- you should keep doing what you're doing, open ID integration should be very easy 16:36 <   mspevack> | pete on "what is open id" 16:36 <   mspevack> | user-centric identity 16:36 <   mspevack> | users are given far more control over their online identity 16:37 <   mspevack> | openid is an example of a url-based identity 16:37 <   mspevack> | your user id is a URL. 16:37 <    mdomsch> | I'd like to hear more about the security of openid 16:37 <    mdomsch> | it seems OK for relatively low-value things like blog comments 16:37 <   mspevack> | mdomsch: we'll ask about it when he's done with his overview 16:37 <    mdomsch> | but I'm not yet convinced for higher-value things 16:38             * | mspevack is not going to try to type all ofpete's open ID description 16:38 <   mspevack> | find info on the web and paste it into channel :-) 16:38 <    mspevack> | mdomsch: you're on the call, right?  I'll throw it to you for a question shortly :-) 16:39 <   mspevack> | pete -- open id is secure up to a point 16:39 <   mspevack> | major flaw: 16:39 <   mspevack> | you're trusting the IDP not to lie to you 16:39             * | mmcgrath has to step away for a minute. 16:39 <   mspevack> | IDP == identity provider 16:40 <    mdomsch> | mspevack, I'm here, but pete's far from the phone mic 16:40 <   mspevack> | pete -- you need to use an authentication scheme that doesn't put your credentials on the wire 16:40 <   mspevack> | mdomsch: he's doubled his volume -- i'll just try to type as fast as i can 16:41 <   mspevack> | basically you have your IDPs, but you need some level of secure auth on top of them 16:41 <   mspevack> | we would need to research some folks who are using OpenID and see what their implementations are 16:41 <   mspevack> | dave -- sounds like it would be good for passing stuff around bugzilla, but not for uber-sensitive data 16:41 <   mspevack> | bill -- we need some of the profile exchange. for things like bugs, you would want an email address or other information 16:42 <   mspevack> | if fedora acts as the identity provider, there's a lot of ways to be secure about the setup 16:42 <   mspevack> | pete -- opportunity for Fedora to deploy openID in a secure manner and show everyone else how to do it 16:43 <    mspevack> | pete -- certificate-based auth is not very difficult or inconvenient 16:44 <   mspevack> | bill -- for what fedora would be using it for, we would almost certainly want to be our own IDP 16:44             * | mmcgrath is back 16:45 <   mspevack> | bill -- what sort of things we need stronger auth for -- basically CVS and build system 16:45           --> | mdomsch_ (Matt_Domsch) [n=Matt_Dom@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:45           <-- | mdomsch has quit ("Leaving") 16:46 <   mspevack> | greg -- we're going to continue down ldap and single sign on anyway, so maybe we use OpenID for some of that. but there might be other places where we need some stronger auth, and openID might not be right for that 16:47 <   mspevack> | blizzard -- i'm confused about the role openID plays 16:47 <        f13> | jwb: I've tried to answer some of the questions. 16:47 <   mspevack> | is it trying to solve the "many accounts" problem? The auth problem? etc 16:47 <   mspevack> | pete -- it's trying to solve the single sign on problem 16:47 <   mspevack> | blizzard -- let's take this use case. i'm firing off a build from the command line. can the auth still take place using openid? 16:47 <        jwb> | f13, k i'll take a look 16:48           <-- | markmc has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:49 <   mspevack> | *general talk around open ID* 16:51 <   mspevack> | donald -- 2 kind of use cases. one is openID for fedora developers 16:52 <   mspevack> | another is for fedora users -- when you install Fedora, you can create an openID and all of a sudden you've got connections in user-land between different groups 16:52 <   mspevack> | bill -- in firstboot you create your "openid/fedora account" and then later when you want to contribute to Fedora (or some other openID-based project), you're all set 16:54 <   mspevack> | greg -- "at what point do we think it's smart to start playing with it?  we're going down the path of LDAP based on fedora directory right now" 16:54 <   mspevack> | what do you mean by ldap? 16:54 <   mspevack> | greg -- we're setting up fedora directory server for people with FP accounts 16:54 <   mspevack> | what's on it? 16:54 <   mspevack> | mike -- right now nothing, but it will be to replace the current accounting database 16:54 <   mspevack> | we have some single sign on stuff, through apache auth to postgres backend 16:54 <   mspevack> | we're hoping that LDAP will replace everything in current accounting system 16:55 <   mspevack> | main sticking point has been the RHAT bugzilla instance 16:55 <   mspevack> | pete -- openid doesn't affect your ldap plans. 16:55 <   mspevack> | whatever happens in the future with openid will still be compatible with storing in LDAP 16:55 <   mspevack> | greg -- "do we want to try being and openID provider, and in what timeframe" 16:55 <   mspevack> | warren -- "sounds like it would just be another interface" 16:55 <   mspevack> | everyone talks at once 16:56           --> | jrb (Unknown) [i=jrb@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:58           --> | wwoods (Will Woods) [i=wwoods@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:58 <   mmcgrath> | mspevack: thanks for keeping good notes, its hard to hear whats going on at times. 16:58 <   mspevack> | no problem 16:58 <   mspevack> | *general chatter right now* 16:59 <   mspevack> | about the potential of an openID profile that can tell you "in Fedora, I updated a bugs and did a checkin.  In project Foo I did Bar" etc 17:00 <   mspevack> | *many jokes about your Fedora OpenID world coming into contact with the "teenage girl" internet world 17:00 <        jrb> | mspevack: is it something that other projects would buy into? 17:01 <   mdomsch_> | fedora women ! 17:01 <   mspevack> | jrb: what do you mean by other projects? 17:01 <   mspevack> | bill -- from fedora's perspective, what we'd like to do is get SSO/ldap up first 17:01 <   blizzard> | girlzz 17:01 <   mspevack> | bill -- and then work on adding openid 17:01 <        jrb> | mspevack: eg, gnome 17:01 <   mspevack> | jrb: donald has mentioned gnome's "echelon" project several times 17:01 <   mspevack> | jrb: i'm not familiar with it, but i assume you probably are? 17:02 <        jrb> | never heard of it 17:02 <         jrb> | oh 17:02 <         jrb> | no 17:02 <         jrb> | that's something a little different 17:02 <   mspevack> | mdomsch_: :) 17:03 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- example case 17:03 <         jrb> | mspevack: that's more like an uber planet/cia thing: http://live.gnome.org/Boston2006/EchelonForGnome 17:03 <    mspevack> | fedora open id -- build system, cvs etc.  but you're also a gnome developer 17:03 <         jrb> | mspevack: I was more interested in reusing identity for the gnome servers and infrastructure 17:03 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- some of the auth mechanisms for both projects are similar 17:03 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- and maybe things can be combined 17:03 <    mspevack> | jrb -- i think jeremy just hit on your point 17:04 <    mspevack> | jrb: but the fact is, if Fedora moves forward with openID, it gives us the chance to convince others to do so as well.  that would in theory be part of the benefit 17:05              * | mspevack wants to see the Fedora SSO/LDAP become more of a reality. Whether or not OpenID is the means to that End, or a part of the solution, matters less to me. Making things easier for Fedora contributors is the end goal. 17:05 <   mspevack> | that's just my opinion -- but openID does *sound* cool 17:05 <        jrb> | mspevack: yeah. We also have this nice smart-card system too... 17:05 <     wwoods> | smart cards for everyone! wheee! 17:05 <   mspevack> | pete -- an IDP is limited in what it can assert 17:05 <   mspevack> | pete -- it can only assert what it has contorl over 17:06 <   mspevack> | pete -- if my IDP is scammer.org, i won't be able to assert authority over any URL that is whitehat.org 17:07 <   mspevack> | greg -- path forward for now is to finish SSO based on F Directory Server 17:07 <   mspevack> | greg -- pete and mike need to get in touch via email, greg is doing that now 17:07 <   mspevack> | *sounds like this is wrapping up* 17:07 <   mspevack> | and then we'll get back to IS/IT in general for Fedora shortly 17:08 <   mspevack> | mike -- question about account system timeline. when do we want it? 17:08 <   mspevack> | greg -- what's the critical path for infrastructure? 17:09 <   mspevack> | mike -- time and resources 17:10 <   blizzard> | "I'd give my left arm to play drums for def lepard" 17:11 <   mspevack> | max -- we need to spend the next hour coming up with our infrastructure priorities 17:11 <   mspevack> | ===== back at 11:15 =========== 17:11             * | mmcgrath gets notes about what all Infrastructure is up to. 17:11           --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- topic is fedora infrastructure priorities 17:12 <   mdomsch_> | mspevack, FYI, one more 1U PE1950 is on its way to PHX to replace the dead hammer box 17:13           --> | graveyard (Ruben Kerkhof) [n=graveyar@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:13 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: i was going to call in for this part but cant 17:13           --> | glezos (Dimitris Glezos) [n=glezos@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:14 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: the conference was full 17:16 <   mspevack> | who is on the phone? 17:16             * | mdomsch_ coming back... 17:17 <   mspevack> | mike, toshio, matt 17:17           --> | green_west (Jack Aboutboul) [n=jack@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:18 < green_west> | okay so we are back 17:18 < green_west> | Max: what do we want from a fedora web presence 17:18 < green_west> | Greg: Project Hosting? 17:18 < green_west> | Greg: We need to kill fedora.redhat.com and part of that is figuring out where we are going to move things and to build new things 17:19 < green_west> | Jesse: All the docs are there, so we need to move those somewhere 17:19 < green_west> | Notting: If we kill f.r.c Docs has no static place to put their content 17:20 < green_west> | Max: There needs to be a place where static content lives 17:20 < green_west> | Blizzard: I like the mozilla model, front page has a static, polished layout, the rest of like wiki 17:21 < green_west> | Misc: content managment systems are a royal pain 17:21 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: docs.fedoraproject.org  would be a good place for docs 17:23 < green_west> | Misc chatter about static content in front of wiki and scaling the wiki 17:23 < green_west> | McGrath: We need a storage backend for the wiki 17:23 <     wwoods> | we paid for a professional fp.o redesign, and we have photoshop files laying around unused from that 17:25 < green_west> | Blizzard: there are only a few things that visitors to fp.o initially need, we should target those needs with a static layout 17:25 < green_west> | wwoods: point taken, talking about that 17:25 <      iWolf> | Just want to throw my +1 for making the frequently used info static. 17:26 <     wwoods> | green_west: I'll again mention that I know (read: am married to) a graphic designer who could work on that for cheap 17:26 < green_west> | Jesse: some pages are static and immutable, those should be static anyway 17:26 <   blizzard> | http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/ 17:26 <   blizzard> | that's the mozilla page 17:26 < green_west> | Max: so we need a two-tiered solution, one with static content on the front few pages, and then a wiki on the back for the rest of out needs 17:27 < green_west> | Blizzard: We need to talk about this during the next Board meeting and just git er done 17:28 < green_west> | Jesse: This isn't stopping us from merging core and extras, why is this a priority 17:28 < green_west> | All: Because it is a high value action 17:29 < green_west> | General Consensus is we need a full time fedora infrastructure person on the red hat payroll 17:29 <   mmcgrath> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Schedule 17:30 <   mdomsch_> | mirrors aren't linked directly from front page - links only to download.f.r.c ;-( 17:31 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: can be fixed 17:32 <  green_west> | okay we are looking at the infrastructure schedule and trying to figure out tactical vs. strategic items 17:32 <  green_west> | ALL: Random Chatter 17:33 <  green_west> | Okay so here are the Line Items of what we have so far: 17:33 <  green_west> | 1. Web Site Redesign 17:33 <  green_west> | 2. Single Sign On / FDS and later OpenID 17:34 <  green_west> | 3. Build System and Packaging DB 17:34 <  green_west> | 4. Bugzilla Integration 17:34 <  green_west> | 5. Project Hosting 17:34 <  green_west> | (these are not prioritized) 17:35 <  green_west> | GLUMP!!!!! 17:35 <    blizzard> | best word _ever_ 17:35 <  green_west> | it even auto updates! 17:35 <    blizzard> | glumpdates! 17:36 <         jrb> | mspevack: any chance of any cross-over with the GNOME infrastructure? 17:36 < green_west> | Okay, so there is discussion about what can be done in parallel to achieve the goals 17:36 < green_west> | Warren: Let's make a dep chart 17:36 <   blizzard> | jrb: I suspect the other way around 17:36 <        jrb> | blizzard: what do you mean? 17:36 < green_west> | gnome integrates with us!!! 17:37 < green_west> | we are the keymasters 17:37 <        jrb> | gnome -> gatekeeper then? 17:37 <   blizzard> | jrb: lots of stuff around auth and ldap and build systems, etc 17:37             * | wwoods vinz clortho, keymaster of gozer 17:38 < green_west> | Blizzard: we need to get to a point where we eliminate mail for systems management 17:38 < green_west> | Blizzard: if we develop better information systems, we become more efficient and less annoyed 17:39 < green_west> | Max: Okay, so if we hired someone now, what order of priority do they have 17:39 < green_west> | 1. Build System 17:39           <-- | graveyard has quit 17:39 < green_west> | 2. Account System 17:40 < green_west> | 3. Maintainability 17:42 < green_west> | More talk about the website 17:42 < green_west> | Greg: no one ever wants to touch it though, its always someone elses problem 17:43 < green_west> | Jesse: We need one IT person and another webmaster type person 17:44 <     glezos> | Note: There are quite a few (new) people in the Infrastructure/Docs teams that would like to help with the new website and tools. They need guidance and probably some core libraries though to work with. 17:45 < green_west> | glezos: yes, we are talking about getting someone to lead this effort 17:45 < green_west> | someone who is paid and accountable 17:45 < green_west> | Greg: We have been talking with seth to figure out what the most accessed pages are and turn them to static content and deploy them in a scalable fashion 17:45 <     glezos> | green_west, that would be great and from what I've seen so far, *very* necessary. 17:46 < green_west> | glezos: we are basically trying to justify hiring someone to do this 17:46 <       couf> | glezos: +1 17:47 < green_west> | okay so here is the goal 17:47 < green_west> | for website 17:48 < green_west> | Identify Key People and bring them together to rethink/redesign the site 17:48 < green_west> | Blizzard: we need a wikimaster 17:50 <     glezos> | green_west, roger that. I think the whole websites-process needs some bootstrapping from an experienced person, ie the building of the core functionality (ACLs, Plone interaction, communication with various teams, decide what content should be put on what tool, etc). After that the community can chip in more easily I think. (eof) 17:51 < green_west> | glezos: yeah, we are trying to figure out what the needs and roles are right now 17:51 < green_west> | Okay, so consensus on website: get a group to rethink site, get a wikimaster, redesign 17:52 < green_west> | Next: Single Sign On 17:52 <  green_west> | McGrath: We can get SSO working pretty quickly aside from bugzilla 17:52 <   mmcgrath> | Did I say that :D? 17:52 < green_west> | That will be done 17:53 <      iWolf> | mmcgrath: :) 17:53 <  green_west> | hahahaha 17:53 <  green_west> | Next: Maintainability of Infrastructure 17:53 <  green_west> | We need hardware 17:54 <  green_west> | We need a new rack to put everything in 17:54 <      wwoods> | I'm sure gregdek is itchin' to talk about a fedora bugzilla instance... has that already come up? 17:54 <    dgilmore> | We need to xenifiy quite a few things to allow for systems to be brought up and taken down as needed 17:54 <  green_west> | Jeremy: We need to continue to centralize our hosting 17:55 <  green_west> | McGrath: Xen instances for eveything 17:55 <  green_west> | Notting: You trust Xen more than I do 17:55 <  green_west> | Blizzard: We can look at Amazon SSS 17:56 <  green_west> | Jeremy: We need alot of centralized storage in order to maintain a consistent view of the package universe for the build system 17:56            --- | glezos is now known as glezos_afk 17:57 < green_west> | Jesse: mirror admin self service 17:57           --> | graveyard (Ruben Kerkhof) [n=graveyar@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:58             * | nirik wonders if anything ever came of bouncer or other better mirror tracking/management. 18:00 < green_west> | Notting: Project Hosting 18:00 < green_west> | First, general hosting space for fedora-* projects 18:01 < green_west> | do we want to provide storage space, bugzilla, other service aside from mailing lists 18:01 < green_west> | Okay, so the consensus is to provide these services for other projects 18:02 < green_west> | we want to centralize information and services as much as possible 18:02 < green_west> | Jesse: what about rolling devel space for other arches? 18:03 < green_west> | people think it will be too much bandwidth for mirroring 18:03 < green_west> | Blizzard: since those download counts are small, why mirror? 18:04 < green_west> | Jeremy: because of locality of download 18:04 < green_west> | Blizzard: other option is for them to have their own hosting 18:05 < green_west> | Jesse: how do those arches spin isos then 18:05 < green_west> | Jesse: via pungi and tools which will be made available 18:06 < green_west> | Jeremy: let's make then do it the same way we do 18:06 <  green_west> | PAIN!!! 18:06             * | mdomsch_ drops off the call for a bit 18:06 < green_west> | Warren: we already spoke about many of these action items, and infrastructure has a schedule already 18:07 < green_west> | there other 2 things are content management, which GDK will take responsibility for 18:07 < green_west> | Notting: wait, back to hosting stuff 18:08 < green_west> | Notting: we need to move things off old rh build systems urgently 18:09 < green_west> | Notting: especially all the translation stuff 18:09 < green_west> | Notting: move cvs root to cvs.fedora 18:10 < green_west> | add i18n group to account system 18:10 < green_west> | move accounts from old cvs root, have people move their accounts 18:11 < green_west> | move content 18:11           <-- | Lovechild has quit ("Ex-Chat") 18:13 < green_west> | since this machine currently serves as hosting for tons of this stuff anyway to the outside, we should just move it to the fedora infrastructure 18:14 < green_west> | Notting Still: There are also other features of this system, like granting certain translators permissions to create groups, etc, which need to be translated 18:14           --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- return 1:30 18:14 <   mspevack> | ================= lunch, back 1:30 ========================= 18:29           --> | wjd (W J Dearborn) [n=wjd@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:33           <-- | mether has quit (Remote closed the connection) 18:57           <-- | c4chris has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:57           --> | c4chris (Christian Iseli) [n=chris@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:57           --> | CGI254 ([3ea0658d]  CGI:IRC User) [n=3ea0658d@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:58           --- | CGI254 is now known as ChitleshGoorah 19:01           --- | glezos_afk is now known as glezos 19:05           <-- | dmalcolm has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:08           --> | dmalcolm (David Malcolm) [i=dmalcolm@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:11           <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 19:17           --> | ChitleshGoorah ([3ea0658d]  chitlesh) [n=3ea0658d@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:20           --> | [splinux]  (Damien Durand) [n=splinux@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:30 <   mspevack> | ping 19:30 <   mspevack> | i guess i'm still here 19:30 <   mspevack> | ok, we're about to get started again 19:31           --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- release methodology (freezes, updates, lifecycle, branding, distro building) 19:33 <   mspevack> | skvidal: would you like to call in? we'll be better than we were yesterday 19:33 <   mspevack> | mdomsch_: you too 19:33 <   mspevack> | get some board members on the phone if we can 19:34 <   mdomsch_> | yes, in ~2min, pls start w/o me 19:34 <    mspevack> | ok == STARTING NOW == 19:34 <   mspevack> | Jesse has the floor 19:34 <   mspevack> | mspevack will continue to be IRC bitch 19:34 <   mspevack> | gregdek will continue to be main note taking guy 19:35 <    gregdek> | thx :) 19:35 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: i know some in extars wont like it  but I feel we have to stop the rolling release for everything but the development tree 19:36 <    mspevack> | gregdek: if you didn't do such a good job, we'd stop asking :-) 19:36 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: donttell him that :D 19:36 <   mspevack> | dgilmore: jesse seems to agree 19:37 <   mspevack> | jeremy -- this goes back to our platform discussion yesterday 19:37 <   mdomsch_> | mspevack, concall is at capacity; can't get in 19:37            --> | markmc (Mark McLoughlin) [i=markmc@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:37 <   mspevack> | mdomsch_: i'll bump it up again 19:37 <   mspevack> | i upped it to 7 people 19:38 <   mdomsch_> | nope 19:38 <   mspevack> | bill -- what are we trying to define? How we define and build something that we release at release time? 19:38 <   mspevack> | greg -- "what does an initial release of Fedora version Foo look like, and how is it maintained" 19:38 <   mspevack> | jesse -- "what do we as FP want to make as our initial spin?" 19:38 <   mspevack> | jesse -- it won't be the size of what Core 6 was 19:39 <   mspevack> | mdomsch_: it's up to 10 people 19:39             * | mmcgrath still prefers the idea of core and smaller 'modular' sub projects. 19:39 <     wwoods> | FP = Fedora Platform? 19:39 <   mspevack> | greg -- single platform or multiple? greg thinks multiple with a common base 19:39 <   mspevack> | wwoods: in that case, FP == Fedora project 19:39 <   mmcgrath> | but that never really worked in reality. 19:39 <   mspevack> | mmcgrath: pls expand 19:39           --> | mether (Rahul Sundaram) [n=ask@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:40 <   mspevack> | phone -- "as non RH person, like the idea of Core being a small initial set of stuff, with other pieces that can be placed on top. 19:41 <    mspevack> | bill -- as Fedora Project being spun by Jesse, does he want to make it possible for others to spin stuff and call it Fedora? 19:41 <         thl> | dgilmore, i agree with " i know some in extars wont like it  but I feel we have to stop the rolling release for everything but the development tree", nervertheless there seems to be a strong interest in a "rolling release" model -- could we provide both somehow? 19:41 <    dgilmore> | that being gcc, kernel and glibc?  and things needed by those? 19:41 <    mspevack> | jesse -- we want people to be able to make spins of packages in the FU signed by fedora keys and call it fedora 19:41            <-- | gregdek has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:41 <    mspevack> | jesse -- part of that is making sure they have a fedora standard base, etc. 19:42 <    mspevack> | Fedora Standard Base is a subset of the "Fedora Platform" 19:42 <   dgilmore> | thl: they could if they follow development 19:42 <   mspevack> | bill -- should everything on fp.o's fedora 7 torrent be bulit by Jesse? 19:42 <   mspevack> | jesse -- "i don't think that's necessary" 19:42 <   mspevack> | jeremy -- "i don't think that scales" 19:42 <   dgilmore> | thl: we would need a freeze at release time to get iso's etc done 19:43 <   mspevack> | blizzard -- says something very similar 19:43 <   dgilmore> | after that it would be updates 19:43 <        thl> | dgilmore, many people won't touch it as long as we tell them "might eat babys" 19:43 <   mspevack> | 1) Desktop Gnome 19:43 <    dgilmore> | thl: true  and at times it eats babies and other things. 19:43 <    mspevack> | 2) LAMP 19:43 <   mspevack> | 3) Java? 19:43 <    dgilmore> | Desktop KDE 19:44 <    mspevack> | *nod* 19:44 <    dgilmore> | Development 19:44 <    mspevack> | dgilmore: make it easy for people to put together their own recipies, whatever it is 19:44 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: sure 19:44 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- desktop environment with Java stack, eclipse, jboss.  here's your Fedora Java developer workstation 19:45 <     skvidal> | hey, cool - now we can  get those java rpm bindings going 19:45 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: we dont have the infrastructure for on demand iso's 19:45 <      jbowes> | skvidal: +1 19:45 <     skvidal> | jbowes: haha 19:45 <    mdomsch_> | dgilmore, once pungi exists, that'll help 19:46 <     skvidal> | jbowes: I forgot to close the tag 19:46 <      jbowes> | skvidal: you joke, but i'd use em! 19:46 <     skvidal> | jbowes: you're deeply broken 19:46 <      jbowes> | skvidal: jum is coming. march '07 19:46 <    skvidal> | jbowes: I dare you 19:46 <    skvidal> | :) 19:46 <    dgilmore> | mdomsch_: yeah   what would be cool is a web interface  i select what i want and get an email with a download link once an iso is created fro me 19:46 <    mspevack> | bill -- the question is, if we are going down this road with "random" spins, do we remove the concept of self-hosting? 19:46 <    mdomsch_> | not all spins need to be self-hosting 19:46 <    mspevack> | jesse -- I think so.  We must.  As long as anaconda can reach the entire "Fedora universe" 19:47 <      warren> | Fedora Everything Blue-Ray! 19:47 <    mdomsch_> | soon and very soon 19:47 <    mspevack> | Fedora Source RPM spin 19:47 <    mmcgrath> | Blue-Ray orbital laser 19:48 <      warren> | mmcgrath, you may buy only 80k of them 19:48 <      jbowes> | skvidal: well, probably more like April 1 '07 19:48 <     skvidal> | jbowes: yes 19:49 <    dgilmore> | i would say we want to provide a defult set of an installable tree 19:49 <   dgilmore> | say a server install and a desktop install 19:49 <   mdomsch_> | dgilmore, but derivatives may delete and add components from rest of Universe as they need 19:50 <   dgilmore> | mdomsch_: sure they can. 19:50 <   dgilmore> | mdomsch_: some people will just want a desktop install  what we provide is good enough 19:50 <   mspevack> | jesse -- on demand ISOs is further in the future. 19:51 <   dgilmore> | anything else in the universe can be installed latter  thats what yum and pirut are for 19:51 <     warren> | dgilmore, we need to build the ability to create that easily first. Then it would be relatively easy to implement the on demand tool. 19:51 <   dgilmore> | warren: i agree 19:51 <   mspevack> | jesse -- whatever tool we use to create our release will be publicly available, so anyone else can make a release and we can host torrents. 19:51 <   mspevack> | but that's not quite yet on-demand isos. 19:52 <   dgilmore> | we could use the most commonally selected components  to make up some defualt offerings 19:53 <   mspevack> | *sidetracked into a livecd debate* 19:54 <      nirik> | would it be ok to call it Fedora X if all the packages assembled were from fedora buildsys and not if someone adds other packages to it? Just a thought for naming... 19:54 | livecd note: Just before FC6, I was able to create a working livecd with kadischi but not with pilgrim. That could have changed with FC6 updates. 19:55 | thl: I think rolling releases are going to become more important to people. Especially if we start pegging our releases to a single component (like GNOME). 19:55 <   mspevack> | bill -- who is accountable for deciding what goes into the "Gnome Desktop" 19:56 | If XFCE is consistently 1.5 months after the GNOME release, for instance, the xfce developers will want to get that into the post-release stable tree. 19:56 <   mspevack> | bill -- for example 19:56 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: Gnome project 19:56 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: what gnome provides as their desktop we provide as their desktop 19:56 <   mspevack> | gregdek -- desktop and server 19:57 <   mspevack> | dgilmore -- we mean "the package manifest that is the "Fedora Desktop (Gnome)" build, for example. 19:57 <       nirik> | abadger1999: Xfce is unfortunately not very consistant about their release dates. :) It's ready when it's ready... but that only adds to your point I think. ;) 19:57 <         thl> | abadger1999, agreed, but on the other hand some people want not that much updates as they bear the risk of breakage and are big in download; thus we should try to gie something to those that want the "classical model of a stable release" and another solution ("altrenatives") that is not that risky as devel, but still rolling release 19:57 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: it would be whatever is needed by the gnome desktop as provided by gnome.  nothing more nothing less 19:59 <    dgilmore> | a server image would have all the server things. postfix sendmail exim, mysql postgresql. which could be guided by a Fedora Universe steeing committe 19:59             * | dgilmore needs to learn to spell 20:00 <   mspevack> | gregdek -- central case is having a spin at the time the initial release goes gold. We've got "Fedora 7" and that consists of all the packages that are "Gold" in time. Fedora base, Desktop, server, and a lot of extras. All of that goes into some set of CDs. 20:01 <   dgilmore> | yep 20:01           <-- | Panzerboy has quit (Remote closed the connection) 20:01 <   mdomsch_> | dgilmore, are a lot of folks disliking the "rolling extras" model? 20:01 <   mdomsch_> | that epel won't take care of? 20:01 <   dgilmore> | mdomsch_: there is quite a few who want to keep it 20:02 <    mdomsch_> | given how often FC is released, I don't personally have a problem with rolling extras 20:02 <   dgilmore> | mdomsch_: i personally feel we cant 20:02 <   dgilmore> | mdomsch_: there will be no more extras 20:02 <   dgilmore> | there will be only Fedora 20:02 <   mspevack> | bill -- pungi needs to divorce stage 1, stage 2, boot.img 20:02 <   mspevack> | from the tree 20:02 <   mdomsch_> | one could argue an intermediate updates-testing stage would be nice 20:03 <   mspevack> | mdomsch_: seth is getting off if you want to try to get on 20:03 <     skvidal> | mdomsch_: enjoy 20:03 <   dgilmore> | mdomsch_: it would be beneficial 20:03 <    skvidal> | mspevack: say bye to everyone for me 20:03              * | mdomsch_ is on 20:03 <    mspevack> | jesse -- we all agree that we will have a platform, and the FSB will be a part of that. 20:03 <   mspevack> | FSB is the least number of packages you can have and call it Fedora 20:06           --> | Panzerboy (Stelian Iancu) [n=stelian@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:06 | dgilmroe: We're still going to release a F.Platform out of the Fedora Universe. We could release a F.Desktop, F.Core, F.Whatever made up of a selected group of packages that want to stabilize for a release while the rest of F.Universe rolls on. (Just one alternative) 20:07 | Sorry, s/dgilmroe/dgilmore/. 20:07 <   mspevack> | branding debate -- are we using the term Fedora as a weapon to enforce quality control or not 20:07 < ChitleshGoo> | F.Kde (for example) too ? 20:07 <   dgilmore> | abadger1999: sure we can 20:08 <      quaid> | fedora-as-branding-weapon++ :) 20:08 < ChitleshGoo> | +1 fedora-as-branding-weapon 20:09 <       nirik> | if all the packages used are "offically built" Fedora packages, shouldn't you be able to call any collection of them Fedora? Or you mean get approval to do so? 20:10 < ChitleshGoo> | nirik: once approved, i guess it can be called fedora, (correct me if i'm wrong) 20:10 <    mspevack> | that's what there is some argument about, nirik 20:11 <    mspevack> | what if someone makes a pile of Fedora packages, but it doesn't boot, or etc. 20:11 <    mspevack> | these are some of the complaints 20:11 <       nirik> | ok, just wanting to clarify... branding as a weapon could mean lots of things. ;) 20:11             * | mmcgrath likes where this discussion is headed... 20:11 < ChitleshGoo> | +1 mspevack e.g geda packages 20:11 <   mspevack> | greg -- "the brand experience of Fedora is taking whatever you want from the Fedora Universe and calling it Fedora" 20:11 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: if its created with our super install tree creation tool it should boot and be called fedora 20:12 <   dgilmore> | i use my lame  i want an image tool  then no 20:13              * | mmcgrath ponders a webcast :D 20:14 <   mspevack> | gregdek -- need 3 simple rules 20:15 <   mspevack> | 1) "official" Fedora spins 20:15 <    mspevack> | nevermind... 20:15 <    mspevack> | this conversation is nearly impossible to summarize on IRC 20:15 <    mspevack> | it's getting very philosphical 20:15 <    mdomsch_> | defer decision of who is blessed to the Board 20:15              * | nirik guesses the 3 simple rules aren't all that simple. ;) 20:16 <   mspevack> | the idea of the FSB is basically being killed right now 20:16 <   mmcgrath> | heh 20:16 <   mspevack> | and what is gaining momentum is "here's the blessed Fedora builds" 20:16 <   mspevack> | that maybe the Board has endorsed 20:16 <   mspevack> | there's the "Fedora Remixes" that folks in the community are building, maybe we never hear about it, etc. 20:17 <    mspevack> | and then there's the stuff that "cannot ever be called Fedora" which is the person who takes Fedora packages, adds in livna, and spins an iso. 20:17 <   mdomsch_> | orbital lazer control included in FSB? 20:17 <   mspevack> | that's an attempt at summary 20:18 <   mspevack> | and the fedora remixes are likely to bubble up and get blessed 20:20 <   mmcgrath> | mspevack: whats the agenda for the rest of the day? 20:20 <   mspevack> | 5 minute break 20:20 <   mspevack> | next is: 20:20 <      quaid> | that seems like a nice model 20:20 <   mspevack> | freezes, lifecycle, updates 20:21 <   mspevack> | what we just covered was "distro building, flavors, a bit on governance" 20:22 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: governece by FUSCo :D 20:23 <        thl> | dgilmore, how about FUDSCo ? (no, I don't know what the "d" could stand for) 20:24             * | thl afk now 20:24 <        thl> | hae a nice summit 20:24             * | wwoods forms an anti-Fedora Universe splinter group, Stop The Fedora Universe 20:24 <   mspevack> | Fedora Universe Comittee 20:24           <-- | warren has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:24             * | mspevack coughs 20:24 <   mmcgrath> | heh 20:24           --- | You're now known as thl_afk 20:25 <      quaid> | oh, yeah, now that is acronym I can really get behind 20:25 <     mether> | quaid: fedora universe and documentation steering committee? 20:26 <      quaid> | FUCSo I mean 20:26 <      quaid> | Fedora Universe Committee for Steering and Organizing 20:27 <      quaid> | Fedora Universe Committe Unite! 20:27 <      quaid> | FUCU 20:29 <   mspevack> | ok, back to order ==================== 20:29 <   mspevack> | Jesse still has the floor 20:29 <   mspevack> | freezes, lifecycle (Legacy), updates 20:30 <   mspevack> | lmacken: can you get on the phone? 20:30 <@greendiseas> | he is on the phone 20:30 <   mspevack> | k 20:30 <     lmacken> | yep yep 20:31 <   mspevack> | .... and here we go. 20:32 <   mspevack> | jesse -- freezes updates, lifecycles, and rawhide. oh my! 20:32 <   mspevack> | how do we manage freezes 20:32 <   mspevack> | what do updates look like in a rolling/not rolling universe 20:32 <   mspevack> | what's lifecycle look like? 20:32 <   mspevack> | what's rawhide look like? 20:32 <   mspevack> | jesse -- currently we gather everything that's in core collections 20:32 <   mspevack> | we drop it in directory 20:32 <   mspevack> | we run some stuff 20:32           --> | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:32 <   mspevack> | we sync it to the world 20:33 <   mspevack> | it takes a long time, just with our package set 20:33 <   mspevack> | it's got lots of problems 20:33 <   mspevack> | the user experience pretty much sucks, but because rawhide is a snapshot in time, so be it. 20:33 <   mspevack> | ananconda doesn't always work, so you can't always do a direct rawhide install 20:33 <   mspevack> | rawhide spin is nothing more than create repo call 20:34 <   mspevack> | jeremy 20:34 <   mspevack> | rawhide is a collection of packages 20:34 <   mspevack> | installer is divorced from packaged set as much as humanly possible -- right now pretty close 20:34 <   mspevack> | packages go out at whatever frequency 20:34 <   mspevack> | daily installer images 20:34 <   mspevack> | you point them at a tree 20:36 <   mspevack> | GOAL -- divorce installer from package set 20:36           <-- | wilee has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:36 <   mspevack> | you can use a known good installer against any package set 20:36 <   mspevack> | rawhide is just a collection of packages 20:36 <   mspevack> | and we provide a daily installer image "basically a rawhide installer" that you point at a tree 20:37 <   mspevack> | rawhide == "all the latest built packages in Fedora Universe" 20:37 <   mspevack> | rawhide will be pushed at fixed times 20:37 <   mspevack> | with ability to do an emergency push 20:37 <     warren> | yay! 20:38 <   mspevack> | and then there will be a rawhide installer 20:39 <   mspevack> | rawhide is a rolling development release 20:41 <     wwoods> | pushed 'at fixed times' - what sort of frequency? Weekly? Monthly? I assume it'd have to pass a few cursory install checks before it would get pushed? 20:41 <   mspevack> | wwoods: daily, i think 20:41             * | mspevack asks 20:41 <     wwoods> | ah, okay 20:42 <   mspevack> | jesse -- "fixed times" means "at least daily, possibly faster" 20:42           <-- | craigt has quit ("Leaving") 20:43 <     warren> | jesse -- In the past extras was built against yesterday's rawhide (sometimes problematic) 20:43 <     warren> | Now everything will be built in the same place. 20:43 <     warren> | (me: yay!!!) 20:43 <   mspevack> | open question -- signing of packages 20:44 <   mmcgrath> | good question. 20:44 <   mspevack> | jesse -- is everyone happy with the future of rawhide? 20:44 <    lmacken> | signing server 20:44 <   mspevack> | issue with signing server -- not necessarily every piece of it is OSS 20:44 <   mspevack> | someone mentioned nCipher 20:45 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: serial console access with a small handful of people able to sign. perhaps 3 or 4 20:45 <   mmcgrath> | mspevack: If we do go the 'respin' route. Who's going to sign those? 20:45 <   mspevack> | keep packages around "for a while" that have gone into rawhide 20:45 <   mspevack> | you mean, custom people who build an ISO out of the FU? 20:46 <   mspevack> | all those packages will already be signed 20:46 <     warren> | Keep packages around "for a while", especially the ones that went public. 20:46 <   mspevack> | warren: i already wrote that :-) 20:46 <      warren> | oh 20:46 <    mmcgrath> | k 20:47 <       nirik> | would be nice if there were signers spread out in diffrent timezones and enough to where waiting on them wasn't a bottleneck... 20:47 <    mspevack> | nirik: in theory signing will be automated 20:47 <    mspevack> | if you can trust everything that goes into the build system 20:47 <       nirik> | ah, cool. 20:47 <    mspevack> | then you can have a signing server 20:47 <    mmcgrath> | hmm 20:47 <    mspevack> | but if you can't trust everything that goes into the build system, you can't. 20:47 <      warren> | nirik, signing server allows abstraction of the master signing from the developers. 20:47 <    mspevack> | isn't that the whole point of the signing server? 20:48 <    mspevack> | NEW TOPIC -- export control 20:48 <      warren> | nirik, theory: developers login to (something), authenticate with their personal (something) key, which then signs using the real key. 20:48 <   mspevack> | Fedora has to inform the legal team: 20:48 <   mspevack> | 1) we're making a release 20:48 <    mspevack> | 2) we're not adding any new crypto stuff 20:48 <   mspevack> | 3) they make a filing 20:48 <    mspevack> | bill -- "#2 will hurt!" 20:49 <       nirik> | warren: that woud be great... then developer would control when a package was signed and released? 20:49 <      warren> | nirik, and announced with the update, yes. 20:50 <      warren> | nirik, details we still have to figure out, and implementation... 20:50 <       nirik> | cool. 20:50 <    mspevack> | so, there's an action item here for legal team, which max owns) 20:50 <   mspevack> | NEW TOPIC -- freezes 20:50 <   mspevack> | one of the reasons why we are so adamant about being able to tag packages and have collection inheritance and get stuff out of buildsys based on a collection tag is so that we can have sane freezes 20:51 <     warren> | (freezes necessary to do a release) 20:51 <   mspevack> | internall -- we have a collection, say dist-fc6. when you build, it's built against that and then tagged for it. so on so forth. that's UNFROZEN 20:51 <   mspevack> | you know what, i don't think I need to type all the "here's how we've always done stuff" stuff 20:52 <   mspevack> | *jesse speaks about how we do builds* 20:52 <     warren> | *Current way of doing things, manually moving packages during a freeze, works only for a small set of people.* 20:53 <   mspevack> | packages are tagged into collections 20:54 <   mspevack> | trees are built based on a collection that all has the same tag 20:55 <     warren> | *New way: Do not freeze entire thing at once, people do not stop creating due to a freeze* 20:56 <     warren> | *(Optionally things after this point can be pulled in if they solve specific problems identified by (someone)* 20:56 <    mspevack> | warren: can you take over with the notes?  :_) 20:57 <     warren> | *(This is a theoretical and experimental process that we have to refine.0 20:57 <      warren> | mspevack, ok 20:57 <    mspevack> | warren: thank you :-) 20:58 <     warren> | * Theoretical debate going on whether this is a good idea or not. davej gave the example of stable/devel kernel branches that became only one branch in 2.6.) 20:58 <     warren> | * Jesse gestured and pointed at blank whiteboard in an attempt to will his mind upon it. 21:00 <      warren> | * (Jesse is writing on board) 21:01 <      warren> | Jeremy -- We require a way to take a snapshot in time, allow things to move forward, and cherry pick things to bring into that snapshot. 21:02 <      warren> | * (jeremy talks about painful ways we did things in the past) 21:02 <      warren> | * (when six people were working on the distro) 21:02 <      warren> | * notting repressed those past painful memories. 21:03 <      warren> | * WHITEBOARD 21:03 <      warren> | Composes happen from collection tags. 21:03 <      warren> | Freeze tags are created for composes. 21:03 <      warren> | Fixes are cherry-picked from base collection tag (i.e. dist-fc7). 21:03 <      warren> | Base tag stays rolling (devel) 21:03           --> | craigt (Unknown) [n=cthomas@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 21:04 <      sbarn> | is everything thats current been discussed available on the wiki in one place at the moment? 21:04 <      sbarn> | or that was discussed i should say so far 21:04 <     warren> | sbarn, not really, this is relatively new within RH itself 21:05 <      sbarn> | ok 21:06 <      warren> | * (Talking about test composes) 21:07 <   mspevack> | example: 21:07 <   mspevack> | dist-fc7 tag applies to every package built from the devel branch currently. 21:07 <      quaid> | sbarn: they've been posting the IRC logs and minutes at the end of the day, as well as folks summarizing on planet.fedoraproject.org 21:07 <   mspevack> | Test1 freeze is announced. Date hits, we create fc7-test1 tag (freeze tag) 21:07 <   mspevack> | we tag the latest dist-fc7 packages with this freeze tag 21:07 <   mspevack> | We create a test repo of all packages tagged "fc7-test1". QA happens on these packages, or some subset 21:07 <      sbarn> | quaid, i just saw, that, wasnt like that yesterday thanks 21:08 <   mspevack> | realistically a lot of these packages will never get looked at. 21:08 <   mspevack> | Fixes are applied to the devel branch and built. Resulting specific package builds get tagged with "fc7-test1" at the discretion of the release team 21:08 <   mspevack> | at final release, when we announce the freeze, we create the fc-7 branch 21:09 <   mspevack> | devel begins to be tagged with the "fedora 8" tag 21:11 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: seems sane 21:12 <   mspevack> | it's all directly out of Jesse's mouth 21:12 <   mspevack> | it all needs to get run by FESCO 21:12           --> | vpv (Ville-Pekka Vainio) [i=vpivaini@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 21:12 <   mspevack> | next -- UPDATES AND LIFECYCLE (including Fedora Legacy) 21:13           --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- updaes/lifecycle, Fedora Legacy 21:13 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: perhaps at say test3 point in time we tag fedora8 for devel  and have a test3 updates tree with bugfixes for fedora7 21:14 <   mspevack> | probably -- that wasn't exhaustive, it was just what I could type :-) 21:14 <    mspevack> | bill -- updates and how you handle a released Universe 21:15            <-- | craigt has quit (Remote closed the connection) 21:15 <    mspevack> | new step involved to get an updated package out for a released product 21:15 <    mspevack> | 1) build package from branch 21:16 <   mspevack> | 2) request update using tool 21:16            --> | craigt (Unknown) [n=cthomas@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 21:20 <     lmacken> | i can hardly hear whoever is talking (jeremy)? 21:20 <    dgilmore> | mspevack: push tools would do the rest> 21:20 <    dgilmore> | ? 21:21            --> | mizmo_ (Máirín Duffy) [i=duffy@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 21:21            <-- | mizmo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:22 <    mspevack> | wwoods: can you get on the call? 21:22 <    mspevack> | rex -- is updates-testing something that we want 21:23 <    mspevack> | rex -- make updates-testing part of the build root 21:23 <    mspevack> | *general confusion* 21:23 <    mspevack> | this feels like a topic that will need more discussion 21:24              * | glezos loves the *atmosphere* logging :) 21:24           --- | stickster_work is now known as stickster 21:24 <     wwoods> | mspevack: sure, I don't have the conference code though 21:24 <   mspevack> | we are going to put will on the spot and ask him about updates-testing 21:24 <   mspevack> | will: 21:25 <   mspevack> | "we talked about policy for doing updates in a recent meeting" 21:25 <      nirik> | nice features for the update tool: marking of security/bugfix, flagging to only release when dev gives final ack, etc... ;) 21:25 <   mspevack> | "basically one of the problems is that we don't have enough people to enforce any of this, but what we'd like to have happen is that if at all possible, someone should install the package and get results" 21:25 <    mspevack> | luke -- "arch maintainers (from yesterday) can be required to give acks?" 21:25 <    mspevack> | will -- "that might work" 21:26 <     lmacken> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UpdatesSystem ("ideal" workflow i came up with) 21:32 <    mspevack> | significant conversation, which will best be summarized by other later.  it's impossible to do it justice in channel, i'm sorry 21:34              * | nirik would also like to see the rss feed per package/branch... would be cool to subscribe to packages you care about and get updates fed to you... 21:34 <    mspevack> | and for the record, davej sucks.  because the kernel sucks :) 21:34 <     warren> | * Someone proposed a Love It/Hate It system like used in Mugshot for easy and quick user feedback for test updates. 21:34 <   mspevack> | i think that was jeremy 21:35           <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 21:35 <   blizzard> | jeremy is a h8r 21:35 <        jwb> | mspevack, for the record, that should be the kernel developers suck. Fedora's mantra is "UPSTREAM" 21:35             * | nirik would also like to see a popcon like package for fedora, but I suppose I will have to write it myself to get anything moving there. 21:35 <     mether> | nirik: do it then? 21:36 <     warren> | * greg: How do these tools prevent gratuitous updates? 21:36 <      nirik> | in my copious free time? :) 21:37 <     warren> | * (talking about how to do automated QA in the buildsys) 21:37 <      warren> | * (post build process tests in the buildsys) 21:37 <      warren> | * Take care of the "OMG it is breaking the world" case. 21:37 <      warren> | * Build package in branch, do post-build processing, get thumbs up 21:38            <-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:38 <      warren> | * Request update using tool, optional flag at build time to put it into the buildroot for building another thing that relies upon it. 21:39 <      warren> | * Fill out, Why is this being updated?  Is this security?  Bug numbers this update is closing?  (for possible automatic closing)  Click button to push update. 21:39 <      warren> | * Behind the scenes, release team: somebody wants to push update, please sign & move & push 21:41 <      warren> | * Repo management (like pup and pirut) is coming, allowing users to enable updates-testing and do other things. 21:41 <     warren> | * Jesse is the repo-monster. 21:42 <     warren> | * Updates go to updates-testing 21:42 <     warren> | * We have haters, or lovers 21:42 <     warren> | * Timeout occurs, nagmail happens to maintainer 21:42 <     warren> | * "timeout, please check for haters, check for lovers, go to this tool to request pushing update" 21:42 <     warren> | * davej -- Great for developer morale. "No one likes you." 21:42 <   dgilmore> | works for me 21:43 <      warren> | * Greg -- Get hate/love integrated into mugshot. 21:43 <     warren> | * Go to tool, click "push this as a final update" 21:43 <   dgilmore> | no one likes me either so davej and I can can sit in the corner 21:43 <     warren> | * davej -- package consumed with hate, either push (unjustified hate), or destroy. It is up to the maintainer. 21:44 <     warren> | Maybe write "Extra Justification" in the box. 21:44 <     warren> | * davej -- I want a hate-o-meter. 21:44 <   dgilmore> | heh 21:44 <     wwoods> | "Waived - 'Don't hate the player, hate the game'" 21:45 <     warren> | * jeremy -- We are not in terrible shape without this. We are not worse off than we are today. This would improve the process, and it is definitely something that the testing team looking into would make sense... 21:45 <     warren> | * jesse -- hatebot! 21:45 <   blizzard> | even the bots hate me 21:45 <      wwoods> | h8b0t? 21:45 <     warren> | * jeremy -- friends that are nerds 21:45             * | warren loves quotes out of context. 21:47 <     warren> | * Packagers duty to check the love/hate 21:47 <     wwoods> | lmacken: as a side note, I was just starting to write a TurboGears-based thing for QA feedback on updates-testing packages 21:47 <     wwoods> | so this is rad 21:47 <     wwoods> | but I can't get it to run :/ 21:47 <    lmacken> | wwoods: awesome! 21:47 <    lmacken> | where is the code ? 21:48 <    lmacken> | i'm working on getting test6.phx.fedora to be our 'TurboGears application server' 21:48 <      nirik> | a popcon like package could also indicate how many people installed/used a updates-testing package... might be of use... 21:48 <     wwoods> | lmacken: nowhere. I started it this morning and threw it away when I realized how your tool worked 21:48 <     wwoods> | heh 21:48 <    lmacken> | haha 21:48 <     warren> | * Signing Server enables update team (who approves pushes) are not master signers. 21:49 <     warren> | * Proposal is for ALL packages to go through this update process. This must be proposed and discussed by FESCO. 21:49 <     warren> | * Technical concern - canceling update 21:49 <     wwoods> | pysqlite2.dbapi2.OperationalError: no such table: package 21:49 <     warren> | * Not a big problem, because not in buildroot unless you explicitly ask. 21:49 <    lmacken> |   ? 21:50 <     warren> | So... big news of this is *ALL* updates in Fedora in an existing release will have update announcements. 21:50 <    lmacken> | weeeee 21:51             * | warren after all committees approve it. 21:51 <    lmacken> | and useful metadata for pup/pirut 21:51 <     warren> | lmacken, will you be available during Thursday's FESCO meeting to help discuss the tools support angle of this? 21:51             * | dgilmore  has been wanting that 21:51 <     wwoods> | lmacken: *forehead slap* 21:51 <     warren> | lmacken, I think FESCO's acceptance of this will rely on understanding how nice the process is with your update processing system. 21:51 <    lmacken> | warren: i think i can make it 21:52 <     lmacken> | i have to write 2 papers and take 2 more finals this week 21:52 <     warren> | lmacken, putting something online, even just screenshots to show ideas, would help for that meeting. 21:52 <    lmacken> | warren: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UpdatesSystem 21:52 <    lmacken> | warren: like that ? 21:52 <     warren> | lmacken, do you want a publictest* machine to run a mock-up of this? 21:52 <    lmacken> | warren: i'm already working on test6.phx, but a publictest machine would probably be better 21:52 <     warren> | lmacken, damn, you rock! 21:52 <    lmacken> | i know. 21:53 <    lmacken> | :) 21:53 <      wwoods> | Hooray! Let's all talk to zoidberg! 21:53 <      wwoods> | I mean, lmacken! 21:53 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: i can change test6 to publictest6 if you want 21:53 <      warren> | lmacken, just change the IP address to a publictest address and reboot the xen guest, and update the InfrastructurePrivate page. 21:53 <      warren> | or dgilmore 21:53 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: or warrens idea 21:53 <     lmacken> | dgilmore: sure, althought i haven't put any firewall rules on it yet 21:53 <     lmacken> | i still need to hack up a pyroman config profile for our xen guests 21:54 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: public ports are 22 80 443 8887 8888 8889 21:54              * | mmcgrath notes the infrastructure team as a whole is worried about port 22 being open. 21:54            <-- | glezos has quit (Remote closed the connection) 21:54 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: denyhosts needs putting on also 21:54 <   dgilmore> | mmcgrath: yup sure am 21:54 <      warren> | Yes, that is why infrastructure team needs to approve anything that runs on publictest* addresses. 21:54 <     warren> | IDEA 21:54 <     warren> | 1) Approval required of infrastructure team 21:55 <      warren> | 2) denyhosts must be configured 21:55 <     warren> | 3) ssh key authentication ONLY 21:55 <     lmacken> | +1 21:55              * | dgilmore is ok with that 21:55              * | iWolf nods 21:55 <    mmcgrath> | warren: +1 obviously but its going to be difficult to enforce since most people will have root on that box. 21:55 <      warren> | Hmm, we have infrastructure quorum now, let's ratify? =) 21:56 <     warren> | hmmm 21:56 <   mmcgrath> | s/that box/their box/ 21:57 <     warren> | mmcgrath, you're right, that is a flaw in this. 21:58 <   mmcgrath> | I suppose due diligence is required on our part. It won't be perfect but its something. 21:58 <   dgilmore> | warren: end users wont have root  only the people managing the test service 21:58 <     warren> | dgilmore, right 21:58 <     warren> | ok 21:58 <      warren> | Ratify? 21:58 <   mmcgrath> | ratify 21:58 <   dgilmore> | +1 from me 21:58 <      warren> | +1 21:58 <   mmcgrath> | +1 21:58 <      iWolf> | +1 21:58 <     warren> | Given we don't have formal voting rules or a defined quorum size, I guess this is ratified. 21:59 <      iWolf> | :) 21:59 <     lmacken> | good good 22:00              * | warren posts new policy to list. 22:00 <      warren> | lmacken, go ahead and change the IP and reboot the guest, but update the docs to reflect it. 22:00 <     lmacken> | warren: k 22:06 <      warren> | MEETING IS BACK! 22:07 <      warren> | * We have concluded that we want Borat to be the speaker at the next FUDCON. 22:07 <      warren> | Or Colbert 22:08 <    mmcgrath> | Making of the OSS free for people! 22:08              * | dgilmore votes for Borat 22:08              * | mmcgrath votes for Colbert in a mustache. 22:09 <      warren> | * Legacy becomes Fedora Security Team 22:09 <      warren> | * Core becomes Fedora (something), fully external 22:09 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team first Tracks problems and pokes maintainers to fix things. 22:09 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team may also fix things. 22:10 <     warren> | * jeremy -- proposes "fedora sustainability team" 22:10 <     warren> | * other people don't like the name 22:11 <        jwb> | renaming something isn't going to really change anything 22:11 <     warren> | * warren -- Proposed: If an old distribution fails to be maintained (older, less popular), retire it. 22:11 <     warren> | * people don't like that idea, because it is difficult to measure 22:11 <        jwb> | if you don't fix the issues Legacy has right now, you could call whatever you want and it still wouldn't work 22:12 <     warren> | * jeremy -- New Proposal: Security updates happen longer (in some way they are discussing) 22:12 <     warren> | jwb, one idea is that Updates being fully in the open will allow lowering the bar and making it easier to sustain an older distro. 22:13 <     warren> | * mspevack -- I wish you waited a little longer before it becomes legacy. (What he hears often.) 22:13 <        jwb> | warren, "fully in the open" meaning no embargo? 22:13 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Make it two instead of one. 22:13 <     warren> | "running up the flag pole" 22:14 <     warren> | * Possibly distro being fully in the open would allow community to help RH engineering to create updates, thereby reducing pressure on RH engineering. 22:14 <     warren> | * (talking about when to stop bug fixes on a FC release) 22:15 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Proposed: Stop bug fixes and security updates for FC7 at FC9+1 month. 22:15           --> | llunved (llunved) [i=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 22:15 <        jwb> | warren, perhaps but i doubt it. legacy releases are fully in the open now once they become legacy and it hasn't fixed things 22:16 <     wwoods> | So.. that would lengthen the support window by ~60 days? 22:16 <     warren> | * Debating whether or not Fedora will allow Legacy to happen on Fedora infrastructure or not. 22:17 <     warren> | jwb, we don't know for certain 22:17 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Clarity of distro retirement is very important to end users. 22:18 <     smooge> | Fedora DeadRelease Team 22:18 <     warren> | There is skepticism here whether *anybody* can realistically maintain an older distro. 22:18 <        jwb> | warren, the only thing that is certain is death and taxes ;) 22:19 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Big thing, reducing scope. 22:19 <      smooge> | To be honest.. I have to agree.. at this point, I just try to figure out a way to get someone converted to the nearest Centos release. 22:19 <      warren> | * jesse -- currently legacy maintains two releases 22:20 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team: tracking things for everything during lifecycle 22:20 <      warren> | * FC7 -> FC9+1 month 22:21 <      warren> | * Honesty is important here regarding Legacy's ability to work or fail. 22:21 <      warren> | * jesse -- Legacy went from many to few people 22:22 <      warren> | smooge, "jeremy -- If you need longer term maintenance, then you should look at longer term options like CentOS or RHEL." 22:22 <      warren> | * rdieter -- Compromising, extending lifetime 22:23 <      warren> | * notting -- reality, legacy has dropped down to one packager and a few other people 22:23 <     warren> | (jkeating said too) 22:23 <     warren> | * davej -- upgrade from FC8 to FC10, will be testing that? 22:23 <     warren> | * everyone -- yes 22:23 <     smooge> | we used to have to test upgrade paths from 3 releases back 22:24 <     warren> | NOTE: Things discussed here are proposals, nothing decided yet. 22:24 <     smooge> | RHEL-4.x/RHEL-3.0.3 -> 5.x 22:24 <      smooge> | understood by me 22:25 <      smooge> | most of the people I know who have Fedora Legacy issues had it installed at a colo and needs updates 22:25 <     wwoods> | I think FC(n-3)->FCn upgrades should still be tested, and I think upgrades should get a *lot* of work 22:25 <     warren> | * jesse -- By making these adjustements, this obsoleting the need for an official Fedora Legacy project. 22:25             * | warren this point not entirely in agreement here yet. 22:27 <     warren> | * Extending useful lifetime to 13+ months while stopping to pretend that legacy was useful. We need truthful messaging. 22:27 <     warren> | (Greg) 22:29 <     warren> | * Change 13 month policy for FC5 immediately? 22:29 <     warren> | * Yes, we think, need to check on this. 22:30           <-- | dmalcolm has quit (Client Quit) 22:30 <        jwb> | 13 months from initial release? 22:30 <        jwb> | or 13 months after going legacy? 22:30 <   mdomsch_> | jwb, 13 from initial 22:30 <     warren> | jwb, example: FC7 lives on until FC9 + 1 month 22:30 <     warren> | 13 months is an estimate 22:30           <-- | sbarn has quit (Remote closed the connection) 22:31             * | corbet thinks this is a big step in the right direction 22:31           --> | dmalcolm (David Malcolm) [i=dmalcolm@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 22:31 <     wwoods> | It seems like time spent maintaining (e.g.) FC3 would be better spent working on making upgrades from FC3 -> FC6 worked well 22:31 <     warren> | * Strong perception "legacy is not a success"... because "legacy is not a success" 22:31 <     warren> | wwoods, yes, this is subject to more discussion. 22:31 <     wwoods> | warren: right, just my opinion 22:31 <     smooge> | Strong perception that legacy is dead 22:33 <   mdomsch_> | at 13 months, don't nuke the old tree from the servers, just don't post new updates 22:33 <     warren> | * wwoods keeps his hate strong. 22:33 <      nirik> | would help to have a tested/approved update method using yum... that would allow more folks to update instead of being stuck on old releases. 22:33 <    lmacken> | warren: publictest2 is now the TurboGears guest (xen2) 22:33 <   mdomsch_> | so people running can upgrade when *they* want, not when we release FC(N+2) on our scheudle 22:34 <     warren> | nirik, please propose to FPB later to discuss and possibly ratify that as a standard. 22:34 <     warren> | * Legacy team and RH engineering must approve of the discussed plan. 22:34 <     warren> | nirik, actually, please begin on FAB 22:34 <     warren> | nirik, are you on FAB? 22:35 <      nirik> | nope... I'm not on anything. ;) 22:35 <     warren> | nirik, please talk to me after and we'll fix that. 22:35 <      wwoods> | nirik: upgrading a running system is kind of hard, so yum updates will always be a bit dicey 22:35 <    mdomsch_> | wwoods, I've gone 3->4->5->6 on mine :-) 22:35 <     wwoods> | but I personally feel that yum upgrades should be fully supported 22:35 <   mdomsch_> | not without some pain, but got there 22:35 <     wwoods> | mdomsch_: same here.. and it's kinda gross 22:35 <      nirik> | yeah, although I have done it with the last few releases and the problems have gone down a lot. 22:35 <     warren> | wwoods, many yum upgrade bugs are worth investigating, might not be possible to totally fix, but it is worth doing as an exercise. 22:36 <     wwoods> | e.g. had to nuke my beagle conf to get it to work in FC6 22:36 <   mdomsch_> | once I nuked 3rd party repo packages first 22:36 <     wwoods> | mdomsch_: oh lord, yes. also that. 22:36 <   mdomsch_> | upgraded, then put them back 22:36 <      nirik> | see the decrease in issues on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq for example 22:37           <-- | tibbs has quit ("Konversation terminated!") 22:37 <     wwoods> | mdomsch_: the dirty secret is that anaconda just silently ignores 3rd-party packages. tada! no conflicts! 22:38 <   mdomsch_> | wow 22:39 <     warren> | * jeremy -- reason why we don't officially support upgrade in place, is to allow the flexibility to make fundamental system changes. For example: static dev to udev. 22:39 <     warren> | * max -- Makes it an incredibly hard sell, (Fedora vs. other distro) 22:40 <     warren> | * jeremy -- upgrades have been failing badly for Ubuntu 22:40 <     wwoods> | right, it would be nice if there was a yum-based upgrade that worked *almost* like that 22:40 <     warren> | Like I said, we should *TRY* to make it work, and test it, and fix bugs when we can. 22:40 <     wwoods> | i.e. it pulls all the packages, reboots into an updater image, runs the update, and then boots the new system 22:40 <     warren> | But it might not be possible to guarantee it to work. 22:41 <     wwoods> | someone could probably write a simple python script to do that, in fact. 22:41 <     warren> | Fixing bugs found during in-place yum upgrades often do fix legitimate problems that would happen in anaconda upgrades. 22:42 <     warren> | * Greg - "Put some pants on by the way!" 22:42 <     warren> | * Max - "Let's all understand the way the QA was done for FC6, and what level of community help we had, your time being used for (talking too fast..." 22:43            --- | warren has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- wwoods (QA test lead) interrogation 22:43 <         f13> | ====  Taking a moment to talk to wwoods. ==== 22:43              * | f13 is taking over as IRC monkey 22:43              * | warren hands banana to f13. 22:44            <-- | [splinux]  has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:45 <         f13> | Question, did bug zappers really work well? 22:45 <    dgilmore> | f13: for maybe a week 22:45 <         f13> | Jack: went pretty well when I did it, but fell off when I went back to school.  Lack of bug day coordination. 22:45 <         f13> | Jack: people doing it felt unloved due to lack of coordination and communication. 22:45 <         f13> | Jeremy: Works for gnome, but has a constant driver 22:46 <     warren> | *Talking about ranking system with scores and ranks. 22:46 <     warren> | "level 1 packager with +3 sword." 22:47 <        f13> | Max: Unless the people whom you're asking to do bug work are seeing quick results, the incentive goes away 22:47 <        f13> | Completely right ^^^ 22:47 <        f13> | Max: there seemed to be no control over blocker bugs 22:48 <        f13> | Max: Did Will have the power to block the release? 22:48 <        f13> | Answer: yes. 22:48 <     warren> | * talking about FC6Blocker but not being empty, because anybody could add 22:48 <     warren> | * Freedom to add is important 22:48 <     wwoods> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria 22:48 <     warren> | * Release cabal decided what were the "actual real blockers" and try to be happy at release time 22:49 <     warren> | * release cabal did stop release a few times to fix critical bugs. 22:49 <     warren> | * Max: File a bug, block "test 1 triage", and team goes through it. 22:49 <     warren> | * Jesse -- Maintainers should  look at bugs 22:49 <     warren> | * notting -- maintainers use blockers as a TODO list 22:50 <     warren> | * jeremy -- from prior experience, it is a full time job to do triage 22:50 <     warren> | * davej -- there will always be nasty bugs that can't be fixed (TOO MANY!) 22:50 <     warren> | * max -- Few people that bother to do good things in bugzilla tend to be ignored. 22:51 <     warren> | engineers of packages in core, make what appear to be arbitrary decisions that frustrates and  disincentives community involvement in QA. 22:51 <       ajax> | disincents. 22:51 <     warren> | * greg -- fundamental intractable problem that is QA, identify most useful activities ... (talking too fast) 22:51 <     warren> | * greg -- bug day: virtual equivalent of buying people a pizza to do work 22:52 <     warren> | * promise to people around them to be there (compared to 3 hour party in evercrack) 22:53 <     warren> | * We need commitment from engineering^WFedora contributors to meet community half-way, so QA people feel good about doing it. 22:53 <        f13> | talk about testing.108, and RHTS type stuff. 22:53 <        f13> | the RHTS guys are very excited about bringing it to Fedora 22:55 <     warren> | (RHTS is an automated suite of regression tests.) 22:55 <        f13> | Not all parts are open, and there is chicken / egg problem. No tests to build infrastructure around, no infrastructure to build tests. 22:59           <-- | graveyard has quit 23:00 <        f13> | Discussion regarding watching bug reports and escelating to "common" issues. 23:01 <     warren> | * Greg - People do Extras because they need it. People do translations (even with shit infrastructure) and it succeeds because they need it. 23:02 <     warren> | * Greg - Motivations for communicaty projects are not intrinsic, (digging to bugzilla shit) 23:02 <     smooge> | does this cover about people with large number of NEW bug events to their name from multiple releases? 23:02 <        f13> | Manager/SIG escelation there.. :/ 23:02 <     warren> | Greg: how do we concentrate on making sure that people give a shit about this? 23:03 <     warren> | wwoods -- better tools 23:03 <     warren> | wwoods -- add incentives 23:03 <     warren> | jesse -- enable people to fix shit themselves 23:03 <     warren> | greg -- motivation for filing bug, dependent on increased expectation that bug will actually be fixed 23:03 <     warren> | solve motivation problem? 23:05 <     smooge> | well as a customer and talking to other people.. you don't get new bugs when you see that xyz maintainer hasnt changed a Bugzilla from NEW to TAKEN (or whatever) since 1999 23:05 <     warren> | warren said: 23:05 <     warren> | People driven QA requires constant manual input 23:05 <     warren> | "Bug day" is one-time and did not create something self-sustaining. 23:05 <     warren> | Better investment is to create automated ranking systems (like GNOME Bugzilla) that encourages fundamental changes in volunteer behavior, due to a feeling of competition and accomplishment. 23:05           <-- | markmc has quit ("Leaving") 23:06 <     smooge> | it is also used as sales part from other companies. "Well if they are so good, why isnt NetworkManager bugs ever cleared" 23:07 <     warren> | * Discussing pros and cons of using Bugzilla for a scoring system. 23:09 <     warren> | * Possibility of adding scoring/ranking/reward system to upstream bugzilla, because this is something that projects need in general. 23:10 <   mdomsch_> | split the problem into multiple parts 23:10 <   mdomsch_> | it's not "all bugs" but "class of bugs #1, #2, #3, ..." 23:10 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Bugzilla is featuritis overload. Everyone that uses Bugzilla is forking it. 23:10 <   mdomsch_> | like we did with the BuidRequires 23:11 <   mdomsch_> | karma 23:12 <   mdomsch_> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/FixBuildRequires tried 23:12 <   mdomsch_> | but the folks who did it really didn't do it for karma points 23:13 <   mdomsch_> | they did it for the love of a "better" distro 23:13 <     wwoods> | mdomsch_: yes, that was the interesting thing to me 23:14 <         f13> | speaking of, wwoods, we need to get those karma points redeemed soon. 23:15 <     wwoods> | f13: indeed 23:17 <     warren> | * Possibly scoring could be done by an async process that queries the Bugzilla and updates scores elsewhere periodically. 23:17 <     warren> | * wwoods talking about RHTS ... 23:19 <     warren> | * writing test plans not exciting, but helpful 23:20           --- | jwb is now known as jwb_gone 23:22 <     warren> | * warren: Incentivize writing documentation with Love/Hate links, which contributes to the point ranking system! 23:22 <     warren> | * Single Sign-On is where the points are tracked! 23:22 <     warren> | * Race: Elvish 23:23 <     smooge> | maybe you could tie it into Mugshot? 23:24 <     warren> | smooge, yes, there was discussion of this. 23:24 <     warren> | smooge, Mugshot creates excellent opportunities in devel information sharing 23:25 <     warren> | * (Add some kind of points tracking thing to the account system schema maybe) 23:26 <   dmalcolm> | wwoods: BTW, I've been working on code that makes it very easy to create a regression test for a package's rpmlint output within RHTS 23:26 <     wwoods> | dmalcolm: yay! 23:26 <     warren> | * Points are not about earning stuff, but earning community respect and "cred" 23:26 <     smooge> | I mean I am more interested in recommending bugs/software than songs 23:27 <     warren> | smooge, as Havoc said it earlier today, "If you don't have any nerd friends, you wont see nerd things." 23:27 <        f13> | mdomsch_: thanks for that update (: 23:27 <      warren> | smooge, Mugshot shows you stuff depending on who your friends are. 23:27 <      smooge> | hmmm I guess I don't have any friends :) 23:28           <-- | mspevack has quit ("Leaving") 23:29 <   mdomsch_> | np 23:29              * | mdomsch_ nuked the 16GB of trees a few days ago to reclaim the space 23:29 <        f13> | heh 23:30 <     wwoods> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Testing/Meetings/20061109 23:31 <   dgilmore> | smooge: you and me both :D 23:31 < green_west> | quaid: ping 23:31 < green_west> | quaid: are you on the call 23:33 <     warren> | green_west, the bridge is dead now 23:34 < green_west> | yes, but if he was on, he wouldnt be disconnected 23:34 <     warren> | green_west, new calls incoming after 5pm stopped 23:40 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Meritocracy, people writing code are those who make decisions about the direction of Fedora. 23:41 <   mmcgrath> | s/writing code/doing works/ 23:41 <   mmcgrath> | :P 23:42 <     warren> | * Greg -- What about Live CD? 23:42 <     warren> | * notting -- LiveCD does not rely on anaconda 23:42 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Problem: skill levels required to do a certain thing, VERY DIFFICULT to hire someone to work on anaconda. 23:44 <     warren> | * max -- wanting to solve problem of RH engineering not being able to focus on key priorities important for Fedora 23:44 <     warren> | * jeremy -- difficult o_O 23:44 <        jrb> | hrm 23:44 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Fedora does not do a good job of enumerating what is important 23:44 <     warren> | thus the goal of this summit 23:44 <     smooge> | how do people who actually want to use Fedora but aren't coders (but say admins/IT/bugtesters) have a say in the direction of Fedora 23:45 <     warren> | smooge, meritocracy... if you aren't contributing in a big way, it is difficult to be respected in a meritocracy. 23:45 <     warren> | smooge, if someone without skills but resources (like money), they could put up bug bounties 23:45 <     warren> | Also... if someone without TIME but money, they could put up bug bounties. 23:46 <     warren> | smooge, also... respect alone isn't useful in getting something. WORKING CODE can be. 23:47 <     warren> | (Still talking about resource scarcity) 23:47 <        jrb> | warren: is the goal of the summit to enumerate what's important to fedora? 23:47             * | mmcgrath wonders how other OSS projects deal with resouce issues. 23:48 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Going to world where everything is external, everyone has to be held to the same standards. (Community contributing code determines direction and what happens. ... maybe...) 23:48 <     warren> | jrb, one of many goals of the summit 23:50 <     warren> | jrb, nothing really was decided in finality here. This was mainly a valuable exercise in putting heads together, posing questions and thinking about options. 23:50 <        jrb> | warren: do I get to vote? (-; 23:50 <     smooge> | warren, I understand that but that goes to the question: why would I want to use Fedora for some project if I have no standing in finding that a current direction is broke? 23:51 <      warren> | jrb, in the actual decisions that result from recommendations of this summit, yes. 23:52 <      warren> | jrb, have time to stop by tomorrow on the last day of the summit?  Topics ... LiveCD, What's in Fedora? "non-free" repos/links, FUDCon/Summit, Max's ideas 23:52 <         jrb> | warren: alright... 23:52 <      warren> | * jeremy -- We work upstream, we work upstream, we work upstream. 23:54 <      warren> | * GENERALLY WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT: Resource scarcity problem.  RH can't do everything that is important for Fedora.  Fedora is becoming fully external.  Meritocracy is important to Fedora.  Hopefully this will allow Fedora itself to easier add things that are important to Fedora. 23:55           --- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- Resource scarcity problem - how do we decide what to work on? 23:55 <     warren> | * notting -- (ask eng managers) What things we would like in Fedora we can have egineers work on upstream? 23:55             * | wwoods no longer being interrogated! 23:55           --- | mizmo_ is now known as mizmo-out 23:56 <   mdomsch_> | laptops 23:56 <   dgilmore> | mdomsch_: they are useful :D 23:56 <     warren> | * notting -- interesting thing, why nobody in RHEL cares about LiveCD? 23:56             * | mdomsch_ thinks laptop features should be a key driver for FC7 23:56 <       spot> | because there is so little corporate Linux on desktop? 23:56 <     warren> | * Priority: LiveCD or Xen? 23:56           --- | tibbs|h is now known as tibbs 23:56 <   mmcgrath> | notting: I bet they'll care more when xen, virtualization, and stateless linux takes off. 23:56 <     warren> | something loses =( 23:56 <    mdomsch_> | lowering power consumption 23:57 <    mdomsch_> | wifi / bluetooth 23:57              * | mdomsch_ is hardware-centric 23:57 <      warren> | * Fundamental issue that we try to do as much of everything in upstream in possible 23:57 <    dgilmore> | warren: id choose xen over livecd 23:58 <      warren> | dgilmore, thus it is the job of Fedora to beat^Wencourage a community project to seriously make LiveCD happen. 23:58              * | mdomsch_ needs to go cook steaks soon 23:58 <    mmcgrath> | dgilmore: but you could do both ;-) 23:58 <   dgilmore> | mmcgrath: sure i could 23:58             * | dgilmore is not that sadistic 23:58 <   mmcgrath> | heh 23:58 <   mdomsch_> | part of LiveCD challenge has been - no offense jeremy 23:59 <   mdomsch_> | jeremy saying "sure, I'll work on it, when I've got time" 23:59 <     warren> | * jesse -- Fedora goes after upstream to fix things (crap makefiles, HIG compliance, etc.) 23:59 <   mdomsch_> | which scares others away, because they know he'll do a good job 23:59 <   mdomsch_> | if he gets the time 23:59 <     warren> | * jesse -- Do not patch locally, go after upstream to fix it for everyone. 23:59 <     warren> | * should be job of maintainer 23:59 <   mdomsch_> | e.g. the "don't bite off more than you can chew" --- Day changed Mi Nov 15 2006 00:00 <     warren> | * Max - Let's go drink. 00:00 <     warren> | * Jeremy - Let's sum up what we did today. 00:00 <     wwoods> | It is totally beer-thirty, you guys 00:00 <     wwoods> | GTFO 00:00 <   mmcgrath> | hah! 00:00             * | mdomsch_ is gone 00:01           <-- | rdieter has quit (Remote closed the connection) 00:01             * | wwoods stops lurking on the call and heads home