Meeting:IRC Support Channel log 20081002

= 2008 July 31 IRC Support Meeting =

Problem Scope
IRC support needs to be improved. There is a shortage of good helpers, and operators to maintain order in the #fedora channel. The channel has many "non helpfull" helpers in it. Support is sometimes inconsistent or not present. We should be able to organize support efforts, attract more helpers and assist more users.

Items Discussed

 * IRC Support SIG - Classroom stuff
 * E-mail posted to the fedora-list 1 October 2008... so far not too much response, but some...
 * The post to the mailing list http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2008-October/msg00179.
 * IRC Support SIG - f10Beta
 * How should we support it?
 * Help is possible if not direct the user to the fedora-test-list@redhat.com should be a valid place to talk about beta/rawhide.
 * Also direct to https://bugzilla.redhat.com to file bugs.
 * IRC Support SIG - Open Floor
 * We had a user complain about an offhand/joke comment...
 * Everyone needs to think about the jokes they make... some people are easily offended.
 * Try and keep things in the channel light and professional.
 * We need to be observant of anybody that does do bashing OP or not.
 * People need avoid: euebuneeto, newbuntooo, windoze, etc... that just looks bad.
 * Do not use the OP option as a means of intimidation (don't op to show your authority) all it does is escalate the situation.
 * Remember that kicking someone or banning them should be a last resort... try and difuse the situation if possible

Long term ideas

 * A 'support wizard' type app. Users could be directed to it to gather information and also point them to solutions for common problems (This could be shared with other support types).
 * Guidelines and organization around all support types (mailing lists, talk, forums).
 * A channel bot for various needs.

Log
Oct 02 11:30:26 	who's around for the irc support meeting? Oct 02 11:30:38 <--	CleeK has quit ("Ex-Chat") Oct 02 11:30:58 <--	ke4qqq has quit (Remote closed the connection) Oct 02 11:31:12 *	Sonar_Guy is Oct 02 11:31:41 -->	Khaytsus (n=Khaytsus@fedora/khaytsus) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:32:08 *	nirik will wait a bit more for more folks to arrive. Oct 02 11:32:14 	ok Oct 02 11:32:28 -->	MadBus (n=scott@fedora/vwbusguy) has joined #Fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:32:31 	here Oct 02 11:33:12 -->	mj0vy (n=mj0vy@123.239.20.236) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:34:48 *	Khaytsus watches F10b upgrade.. Oct 02 11:34:58 	ok, lets start out then I guess... Oct 02 11:35:05 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Classroom stuff Oct 02 11:35:24 	I sent out an email to fedora-list yesterday... so far not too much response, but some... Oct 02 11:35:26 -->	spoleeba (n=one@fedora/Jef) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:35:34 	will gather info and try and summarize it next week. Oct 02 11:36:04 	feel free to point folks to that thread or mail me direct on it... Oct 02 11:36:06 -->	roguedaemon (n=rogued@fedora/roguedaemon) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:36:47 	http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2008-October/msg00179.html is my post there... . Oct 02 11:37:26 -->	mcepl (n=matej@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:37:32 	anyone have anything more they want to discuss on classroom stuff? Oct 02 11:38:44 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - f10Beta Oct 02 11:38:55 	so, f10 beta is out... Oct 02 11:39:02 <--	smooge has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") Oct 02 11:39:04 	yup Oct 02 11:39:35 	just finished installing it in vm here Oct 02 11:39:43 	shall we try and help beta folks? I think it would be good if we could rather than pointing them over to devel... but I guess it just depends on if we                        can answer their questions. Oct 02 11:40:13 	I'm sure devel doesn't want them, they want to do devel work.. Should there be another channel? Oct 02 11:40:23 	we can try but it gets hard as it is rawhide and changes daily if they update. Oct 02 11:40:53 	yeah, but I don't think there would be enough people staffing another channel... Oct 02 11:41:11 	how about we try and help, and if we can't we punt them to the test list? Oct 02 11:41:12 	and really, rawhide is minimally supported anyway Oct 02 11:41:13 	So probably some level of help, but if it gets complicated, send them up to devel? Oct 02 11:41:22 	there's a difference between testing and trying to use it as a stable system Oct 02 11:41:31 	very true. Oct 02 11:41:35 	in the past we never sent them to the #fedora-devel channel only to the mailing list and/or bugzilla Oct 02 11:41:39 	to some extent getting things working is essential to testing though Oct 02 11:41:53 	EvilBob: yup that is how it has been done in the past Oct 02 11:42:06 	yeah, EvilBob +1... I think thats a good way to do it. Oct 02 11:42:13 	just want everyone on the same page. ;) Oct 02 11:42:17 	or just to bugzilla? Oct 02 11:42:31 	IMO #fedora-devel is not for general users who installed the wrong thing Oct 02 11:42:50 	MadBus: well, the fedora-test-list@redhat.com should be a valid place to talk about beta/rawhide. Oct 02 11:42:51 	MadBus: the mailing list and bugzilla Oct 02 11:43:04 	nirik: +1 Oct 02 11:43:15 	and perhaps the 'test' in there will make them realize what they are running. ;) Oct 02 11:43:18 <EvilBob>	that is the list I meant not the devl list Oct 02 11:44:41 	ok. I have also noticed some folks planning on using Beta, and updating and getting F10 that way. Which should work, but we should warn them that the road from here to there is likely not a smooth one. Oct 02 11:45:13 <Khaytsus>	Yeah, many people see "f10" and think they can just jump on board and use it as a desktop. Oct 02 11:45:22 	anything else on beta support wise? Oct 02 11:45:30 <EvilBob>	nirik: unlike in the past that should work from what I understand, did in the F9 release I am told Oct 02 11:45:41 <Khaytsus>	But what can we do besides warn them that it's unstable until relase and shoudl only be used by people willing to log bugs? Oct 02 11:46:08 	yeah, it does, but if there are broken deps, or some package gets rolled back, or something has broken scriptlets or the like, they could end up with a mess. Oct 02 11:46:30 	Khaytsus: not much. Warning is good though. Oct 02 11:46:48 <Khaytsus>	I'll just output my rawhide quote.. Oct 02 11:46:50 <Khaytsus>	Rawhide will eat your dog, cat, kids, computer, and you. Oct 02 11:47:08 <MadBus>	if it doesn', file a bug Oct 02 11:47:08 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Open Floor Oct 02 11:47:10 -->	thomasj (n=thomasj@fedora/thomasj) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:47:15 	sorry.. late Oct 02 11:47:21 	any other topics to bring up. Oct 02 11:47:25 	welcome thomasj Oct 02 11:47:27 <--	lfoppiano has quit ("Ex-Chat") Oct 02 11:47:28 <MadBus>	is vallor here? Oct 02 11:47:30 <MadBus>	nope Oct 02 11:47:40 	nirik, thanks Oct 02 11:47:44 <MadBus>	even if he isn't here we should bring that up Oct 02 11:47:48 	sure... Oct 02 11:48:13 	so we had a user complain about an offhand/joke comment... Oct 02 11:48:14 <MadBus>	we should see if his concerns are happening and what she be done to fix it Oct 02 11:48:40 <EvilBob>	what is happening? Oct 02 11:48:45 	I would caution everyone to think about the jokes they make... some people are easily offended. Try and keep things light and professional. Oct 02 11:49:18 -->	linuxguru (n=linuxgur@unaffiliated/linuxguru) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:49:19 	MadBus: in the one example he stated I thought the joke was in poor taste, but not any big deal... Oct 02 11:49:54 <EvilBob>	some people have no sense of humor also Oct 02 11:50:00 <MadBus>	I don't know if we should enforce that strict Oct 02 11:50:02 	also, I personally would suggest people avoid: euebuneeto, newbuntooo, windoze, etc... that just looks bad IMHO. Oct 02 11:50:07 <MadBus>	it didn't appear to me to be a blatent attack Oct 02 11:50:14 	EvilBob, The user, vallor, is the last robin hood. He is always for the underdog. in the last case, it was a op that made a joke about himself, how good he is and that he should get cloned. Oct 02 11:50:21 <MadBus>	and I worry about clamping down to tight and running away people who do a good job of helpin Oct 02 11:50:48 	EvilBob, but vallor understood it like the op was bashing the newb. Oct 02 11:50:51 *	nirik isn't suggesting we enforce anymore than we are... just asking the helpers/ops to remember to think before typing. Oct 02 11:51:00 	+1 Oct 02 11:51:06 <Sonar_Guy>	+1 Oct 02 11:51:13 <--	mcepl (n=matej@ppp1053.in.ipex.cz) has left #fedora-meeting Oct 02 11:51:26 <MadBus>	I throw in a +1 to that Oct 02 11:51:32 <Sonar_Guy>	and we need to be observant of anybody that does do bashing op or not. Oct 02 11:51:32 	also, I would say if anyone has issues with specific users in channel, it's good to bring them to the attention of all... Oct 02 11:51:53 	there may be cases where someone really is being a jerk and needs to be removed. Oct 02 11:51:59 	Sonar_Guy: quite right. Oct 02 11:52:04 <MadBus>	yeah Oct 02 11:52:44 	so, does anyone suggest we change any guidelines or policies? or is what we have now ok? Oct 02 11:53:03 <MadBus>	I thin kwhat we have is still good Oct 02 11:53:18 <MadBus>	and I think generally the n00b-flaming in #fedora has been in decline Oct 02 11:53:22 <Sonar_Guy>	another thing that goes along with this is do not use the OP option as a means of intimidation (dont op to show your athority) all it does is escalate the situation. Oct 02 11:53:26 <EvilBob>	I don't think anything needs to change, there will be those who "don't get it" no matter what the rules are Oct 02 11:53:31 <--	che has quit (Remote closed the connection) Oct 02 11:53:35 	Sonar_Guy, +1 Oct 02 11:53:37 	Sonar_Guy: +1 Oct 02 11:53:40 	sorry for disturbance. but i was afk when the meeting started. how can i get the logs of this meeting ? :) Oct 02 11:53:57 <Sonar_Guy>	linuxguru: they will be posted on the wiki Oct 02 11:54:17 <MadBus>	linuxguru, they should be posted on the wiki Oct 02 11:54:27 	okay Oct 02 11:54:28 <EvilBob>	they should be posted on the wiki Oct 02 11:54:32 	Sonar_Guy: can you post them? I can gather them up... or I suppose I can do it... Oct 02 11:54:58 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: I have them logged at home, I just need to get caught up with posting them. Oct 02 11:55:08 *	Sonar_Guy points to sonar_logger1 Oct 02 11:55:19 *	MadBus waves @ sonar_logger1 Oct 02 11:55:28 	oh. yeah we have bot Oct 02 11:55:32 <EvilBob>	no Oct 02 11:55:38 	additionally, we should remember that kicking someone or banning them should be a last resort... try and difuse the situation if                        possible (which I know is not always possible) Oct 02 11:55:40 <EvilBob>	there is a logger Oct 02 11:56:01 	I also have logs, so let me know if you need anything from my logs. Oct 02 11:56:03 <Sonar_Guy>	linuxguru: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Start Oct 02 11:56:33 	ok, anyone have any more topics for open floor? Oct 02 11:56:35 <Sonar_Guy>	thats where all the meeting minutes get poste. Oct 02 11:56:39 <Sonar_Guy>	posted Oct 02 11:56:45 	Sonar_Guy: thanks for the link. Oct 02 11:57:06 <Sonar_Guy>	linuxguru: wrong link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Support_Channel_Meetings is the correct one Oct 02 11:57:13 	okay Oct 02 11:57:56 	I will note that we are still looking for interested folks to work on a bot for us. Oct 02 11:58:21 <MadBus>	! Oct 02 11:58:36 <MadBus>	The Start page Oct 02 11:58:43 <MadBus>	anything need updating/improving? Oct 02 11:59:04 <MadBus>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Start Oct 02 12:00:00 	MadBus: is it worth mentioning the beta on there? I guess probibly not. Oct 02 12:00:59 	It is in the /topic of #fedora Oct 02 12:01:23 	or to be selfish, perhaps a link to the Classroom survey post... Oct 02 12:01:37 <Sonar_Guy>	yup that would be a good addition Oct 02 12:01:58 	I'm amazed at how many people care about rhgb. Oct 02 12:02:48 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: should we start a page about the classroom stuff? or wait to see the response on the mailing list first? Oct 02 12:03:04 -->	sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2BD4F.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 12:03:19 	I'd rather start it after know there is enough interest. Oct 02 12:03:25 <Sonar_Guy>	ok Oct 02 12:03:36 	So far I have had about 6-7 responses... which isn't much. Oct 02 12:03:42 <MadBus>	fwiw, I did see a reduction in the numebr of people asking about rhgb after updating the page Oct 02 12:03:58 <MadBus>	I don't know if that means people are using it or not though Oct 02 12:04:10 -->	napster3522 (n=webmaste@122.167.58.56) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 12:04:11 -->	aminus (n=asdf@cpe-98-151-9-136.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 12:04:14 -->	mock (n=mock@user-24-96-105-148.knology.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 12:04:33 	yeah, hard to tell. Oct 02 12:04:35 <MadBus>	nirik, how about setting up zeebot to occassionally drop the URL to the survey in #fedora Oct 02 12:04:55 <MadBus>	like 2-3x/day Oct 02 12:05:02 	we could I guess, but those kind of things are anoying... Oct 02 12:05:19 <MadBus>	at 2-3/day I don't think it would be bad, I wouldn't do it more though Oct 02 12:05:29 <Sonar_Guy>	what if it was triggered off the keyword "learn" Oct 02 12:05:45 <MadBus>	Sonar_Guy, why not set an auto-replace then Oct 02 12:06:01 <MadBus>	or CTCP reply Oct 02 12:06:14 	I can start mentioning in a few times a day manually... Oct 02 12:06:19 -->	Vachaun22_AtWrk (n=I@UNUSED-216-37-211-106.UNUSED.epix.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Oct 02 12:06:23 <--	fab has quit ("Leaving") Oct 02 12:06:34 <--	Vachaun22_AtWrk (n=I@UNUSED-216-37-211-106.UNUSED.epix.net) has left #fedora-meeting ("Leaving") Oct 02 12:07:04 <MadBus>	that might work, then you'll be around to answer questions Oct 02 12:07:17 *	MadBus looks to avoid work Oct 02 12:07:37 <MadBus>	(jk) Oct 02 12:07:52 *	Sonar_Guy mentions to MadBus that should they wish to learn more about fedora to take a look at                        http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2008-October/msg00179.html Oct 02 12:07:58 *	roguedaemon is crippled again and can only sit for 30sec bursts Oct 02 12:08:17 	ok, anyone have anything else? or shall we call it a meeting? Oct 02 12:08:46 <MadBus>	+1 Oct 02 12:09:00 <Sonar_Guy>	+1 to close Oct 02 12:09:14 *	nirik will close the meeting in 30 seconds Oct 02 12:09:25 <MadBus>	25 Oct 02 12:09:31 <MadBus>	20 Oct 02 12:09:52 	--- meeting closed -- Oct 02 12:09:56 	thanks for coming everyone!