FedoraSummit/SummitIRCLog

14:15 <        f13> | *yawn*  time to start the day 14:23 <     glezos> | f13, it's a nice day to start, no? :) 14:23 <      glezos> | s/nice/fun 14:37 <      glezos> | off to work 14:37            <-- | glezos has quit ("Leaving") 14:46            --> | jwb (Josh Boyer) [n=jwboyer@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 14:50            --> | Lovechild (David Nielsen) [n=david@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:13            --> | danpb (gaim) [i=berrange@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:21            --> | samfw (sam folk-williams) [i=samfw@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:23            --> | glezos (Dimitris Glezos) [n=glezos@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:38            --> | markmc (Mark McLoughlin) [i=markmc@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:45            <-- | sankarshan has quit ("/me goes off to take a break") 15:50            --> | quaid (Karsten Wade) [n=quaid@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:51            --> | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:54 <        jwb> | f13, starting soon? 15:55             * | smooge has come to the Cabal meeting representing the Gnomes of Sandia 15:56             * | thl googles for Gnomes of Sandia 15:57             * | jwb represents nobody 15:57 <     smooge> | we are an offshoot of the Gnomes of Zurich.. but had a falling out of the great GPL war of 1994 15:58 <  Lovechild> | jwb: then so long as nobody informs the community we'll be fine.. 15:58 <        jwb> | :) 15:58 <         f13> | jwb: we just got wireless going 15:59 <         f13> | waiting on a few more people to show up. 15:59 <         jwb> | f13, bah.  wireless is for mortals.  real men just send brain waves directly to freenode 15:59            --> | gregdek (gaim) [n=gdk@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:59 <      smooge> | well other than Rex.. everyone should be from the same timezone.. :) 16:00           --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: Setting the Agenda 16:00 <    gregdek> | Howdy do, folks. 16:00 <@greendiseas> | hey fools 16:00 <        jwb> | gregdek, so are you "the voice"? 16:00 <    gregdek> | As everyone gets started, /me wanders off to the can. :) 16:00 <  Lovechild> | howdy ho gregerino 16:00 <     gregdek> | I am the voice, yes. 16:00 <         jwb> | k 16:00              * | quaid hip-hop handshake and hug to gregdek 16:01 <       quaid> | greendisease: howdy dude 16:01 <         f13> | gregdek will be the first voice 16:01            <-- | abostrom has quit ("Leaving") 16:02 <         f13> | which means I'll not pay attention for a while. 16:02 <@greendiseas> | quaid: w0ow, youre up early 16:02 <       quaid> | greendisease: weekly Enterprise Marketing meeting ... 9:30 a EST *ugh* 16:03            --> | abostrom (Alexander Bostrom) [n=abo@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:05 <     gregdek> | quaid: Yo, whassup, my brutha. 16:05 <     gregdek> | All righty. 16:07 <     gregdek> | So today is probably going to be around the issues regarding the opening of infrastructure. 16:09 <     gregdek> | I hope and presume that someone is logging the channel, since this is where I'm taking notes for the day. ;-) 16:09 <    gregdek> | Max speaks... "this is the time to do a lot of the things with Fedora that we've been talking about for the last few months.  We've got management focus to really kick some ass right now." 16:10 <         jwb> | full logs can be made available for only 3 payments of $15.95.  if you act now, we'll throw in the logs of #fedora-extras for free! 16:10 <         jwb> | ;) 16:10 <      danpb> | i'll do logs for only  $14.95  & throw in a free pony ! 16:10           --> | spot (spot) [i=spot@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:10 <    gregdek> | "...we've also got the possibility to be a bit subversive.  We spend a lot of time trying to get people on-board internally with the Fedora plan, but the times comes when, if people don't get on board, we route around them.  That's where we are with Fedora right now." 16:11           --> | jbowes (James Bowes) [i=jbowes@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:11 <    gregdek> | "...we've been talking about a world in which anyone can contribute to Core, or 'opening Core' or whatever, and anyone can participate.  That's what we're trying to get to." 16:11 <    gregdek> | (General nodding and agreement in the room.) 16:12 <       spot> | is there an audio stream or a dialin? 16:12 <    gregdek> | Jeremy speaks: "So let me play devil's advocate: what does opening Core gain us?" 16:13 <        jwb> | spot, no.  i asked that already 16:13 <    gregdek> | spot: There is not, sorry. But if you want to throw something in, let me know. I know I'm a poor medium here. 16:13 <       spot> | KDE is the most obvious "why open core" answer 16:13 <    gregdek> | Max: "...what we gain is actually being a community distribution, run in a community way." 16:13 <    gregdek> | Jesse: "Removing roadblocks to community contribution." 16:13             * | gregdek mentions Spot's comment. 16:14 <    gregdek> | Jesse: "When Red Hat *maybe* cares about 500 packages at a time, max." 16:15 <    gregdek> | Jeremy: "Continuing to play devil's advocate, blah blah blah." 16:15 <    gregdek> | :) 16:15 <   Lovechild> | it would also help to raise our profile which seems important, especially shaking that "red hat lite" image 16:16 <     gregdek> | Warren: "Lowering the roadblocks to contribution makes Fedora an actual meritocracy." 16:17 <      jbowes> | it would be nice to not have two different build systems, etc. as well 16:17 <        spot> | ... this telephone game is going to give me a headache. 16:17 <         jwb> | jbowes, yes.  that doesn't really mean that Core has to be open 16:18 <         jwb> | (playing devil's advocate with jeremy) 16:18 <        spot> | is there no polycom in the room? 16:18              * | spot can set up a toll-free bridge 16:18 <         jwb> | spot, that would be nice... 16:19 <      jbowes> | jwb: agreed. but the two would be easier if done together 16:19 <         jwb> | jbowes, sure 16:19              * | greendisease hits spot over the head 16:19 <@greendiseas> | i told you you should just fly here 16:20 <    gregdek> | spot: We're still trying to figure out if we can use the phone in this office. :) 16:20 <       spot> | greendisease: sure. clear my calendar for the next two days. 16:20              * | spot points out that he gets paid to eat braiiiins, not work on Fedora. 16:21 <@greendiseas> | word 16:22 <     gregdek> | Rex: "You know what, it all starts with a policy decision.  We can all agree that we can change the definition of 'what ships' as 'what's in the Fedora Universe," not necessarily what's in Core.  And we can start the ball rolling right now by moving a ton of packages from Core to Extras. 16:23 <     gregdek> | Jeremy: "We don't want to necessarily wait to move packages from Core to Extras.  If we wait until we've got all the revision control questions sorted, it gets harder to move immediately." 16:24 <         jwb> | that depends 16:26 <     gregdek> | Max: "Here's the trivial case we must solve.  Thunderbird spec file is broken.  It's a one-line fix.  Twenty people post the fix in Bugzilla. It blocks on a RH engineer having time to commit the change. That's broken, and we need to fix it." 16:26 <    gregdek> | Jeremy: "Which is more important to fix immediately: build system, or source control. Build system is what gets us moving now." 16:27 <  Lovechild> | well given the glacial pace at which people normally make big decisions would it not be good to move as many package now then open the question of a cvs replacement to the extras people. That way we get the benefit of being able to fix stuff now 16:28              * | gregdek speaks Lovechild's mind.  :) 16:29 <         jwb> | just moving packages from one repo to another doesn't really solve anything though 16:29 <     gregdek> | Jesse responds: "We need more than plague to do this.  Something that has package collections, package tagging, freezes, etc.  And rather than building that infrastructure around CVS, we might need to change that first." 16:29 <     gregdek> | Jesse responds from the Build Master perspective, heh. 16:30 <   Lovechild> | Jesse speaks wisdom though, no reason to build a house on a foundation of quicksand 16:30 <        jwb> | f13, be careful with the term Freeze 16:30 <        jwb> | Extras doesn't freeze 16:30 <    gregdek> | Sounds like that's something we'll be discussing. :) 16:31 <    gregdek> | Looks like Extras and Core folks will have to meet in the middle to figure out what a "release" is going to look like. 16:31 <         jwb> | most likely 16:31 <     gregdek> | In a brave new world, how do we come up with a concept of "release" for CD spins, etc., that can contain both Extras and Core? 16:32 <     gregdek> | Jeremy: "This is why it takes Debian 3 years for a release.  This is why Ubuntu has very different rules for Main and Universe.  This is why OpenSuSE... well, has OpenSuSE released?" 16:33            --> | craigt (Unknown) [n=cthomas@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:34 <     gregdek> | Much talking about "what policies need to exist distinguishing Core and Extras." 16:34 <         jwb> | the way i see it, Core and Extras is just a logical line that is materialized into a physical means via separate repositories 16:34 <         jwb> | merge into a common repo, and you have what really exists 16:35 <        jwb> | you have fedora. then you can talk about what packages comprise a Fedora Base 16:35 <    gregdek> | Blizzard arrives! He looks like he slept in a box under the freeway. 16:35 <  Lovechild> | oh.. mental images.. the horror 16:35 <     jbowes> | hehe 16:36 <    gregdek> | Jesse: "Figuring out the use case for what we ship tells us what we target for freeze, while the community continues to roll forward." 16:36 <        jwb> | yes 16:36 <    gregdek> | Blizzard was up until 2am working on OLPC, poor bastard. 16:36 <    gregdek> | DaveJ: "Security folks are also tracking stuff somewhat in Core." 16:37 <        jwb> | they can do that in a merged repo 16:37 <    gregdek> | Warren is drawing a smiley face on the whiteboard. No, it's a hat. No, it's a dinner plate! No, it's a conceptual map of the Fedora Universe! 16:37 <  Lovechild> | f13: Maybe some what similar to what rpath does with conary.. premade isos and isos on demand? 16:37           --> | nasrat (Paul Nasrat) [n=nasrat@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:37 <    gregdek> | No, it's actually a dinner plate. 16:37 <        jwb> | packages don't magically disappear or change names when put into a different repo 16:38             * | gregdek waits to pass along jwb's wisdom. 16:38 <        jwb> | ugh, please refrain from calling any of my drivel "wisdom" ;) 16:38            --> | wjd (W J Dearborn) [n=wjd@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:38 <       samfw> | i think he was being sarcastic 16:39 <     gregdek> | Jesse: "At the end of the day, people will want to spin ISOs based on both 'stuff we call Core' and 'stuff we call Extras'.  Therefore, we must either freeze everything, or nothing at all." 16:40 <     gregdek> | Blizzard: "We really need to shrink what we call 'the Base'.  The stuff that *really* needs to be *stable* is actually fairly small." 16:40 <     gregdek> | Jeremy: "What is the platform is a really big one." 16:41 <     gregdek> | Wow.  Blizzard is talking all about his "Bigger Tent." 16:41            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: Setting the Agenda.  Brought to you by Smiling Bob. 16:43 <     gregdek> | So I have proposed THE LARGE GOAL, which is this: "Allowing anybody to contribute packages to the Universe, and allowing anybody to build their own distro based on that package set." 16:43 <  Lovechild> | one could see how derived projects would benefit from blizzards tiny stable base and then a concept of say a gnome-desktop but then the variantions become endless and if we go down that road looking at rbuilder might not be a bad idea 16:43 <    gregdek> | And we're now discussing this philosophically to make sure it's the right goal. (Which we seem to agree on.) 16:45 <  Lovechild> | one of Fedora' great strenghts is clearly that it's a nice base for a derived project: RHEL, OLPC, PS3' OS.. all build on Fedora. We should definitely hang on tightly to that goal 16:45 <        jwb> | yes 16:45 <        thl> | +1 16:46           --> | jrb (Unknown) [i=jrb@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:46 <  Lovechild> | while a bit to technical for this stage in the game I would urge having a look at what rbuilder does since it seems to be good at that task specificly 16:47 <    gregdek> | Blizzard: "We should also CELEBRATE all of these downstreams, which we've never really done." 16:47 <        jwb> | what does that mean? 16:47 <    gregdek> | I'm trying to find that out. :) 16:47 <  Lovechild> | completely agreed, I'm often sad that we don't congratulate people like Yellow dog for selecting Fedora as the base for a massive deployment 16:47 <     gregdek> | Basically, if Fedora is so sweet, we should be bragging about that. 16:48 <     gregdek> | General nodding and agreement. 16:48 <         jwb> | we do... 16:48 <     gregdek> | Apparently not enough.  ;-) 16:48 <        jwb> | or is he talking about taking out ads in NYTimes or something? 16:48 <        jwb> | anyway, doesn't matter much. need more rah, rah for fedora. got it 16:48 <  Lovechild> | press releases and general community praising would be a good place to start.. 16:49           --> | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:49 <     nasrat> | but some downstreams are appalling about pushing patches back up 16:49 <      nasrat> | despite much prodding 16:49 <  Lovechild> | maybe we could try and give Fedora Advocates a bigger profile, I would love to go out and preach the fedora gospel some more 16:49 <        jwb> | nasrat, yeah. i'm a bit cautious about celebration ATM too 16:52 <  Lovechild> | on the other hand if the fedora community enmass praised these people for selecting Fedora out of the many platforms to build on, we could get them to partake a bit in the fun. I think we should at least try to reach out to these people, if for nothing but to tell the world that there's Fedora in .. 16:52           --> | blizzard (Christopher Blizzard) [n=blizzard@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:52 <    gregdek> | OK, so we are going to state, clearly, the reasons we're choosing to open Fedora: 16:52 <    gregdek> | 1. A bigger tent. More people involved means a better distro. 16:52 <    gregdek> | 2. Allows for Fedora use cases that we don't envision: innovation happens at the edges. 16:53 <    gregdek> | 3. Makes it easier to build downstream distros -- which people are already doing, so we can at least make it easier. (RHEL, OLPC, PS3, etc.) 16:54 <  Lovechild> | it should probably be innovation happens everywhere and we want to allow it to happen freely 16:55 <  Lovechild> | otherwise it implies that base doesn't innovate or that we dont.. which would be playing down the efforts of the platform community 16:55           --> | brezhnev (gaim) [n=brezhnev@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:55 <    gregdek> | (Warren is busily restating point 1 as "meeting the community halfway."  So let it be recorded.) 16:55           --> | apuch (Andrew Puch) [i=apuch@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:56           --- | apuch is now known as wilee 16:56           --> | jberman (Joel Berman) [i=jberman@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:56 <    gregdek> | 4. Making it easier for downstream to commit their interesting changes back to us. 16:57 <    gregdek> | Spot calls Aurora retarded. And he would know. 16:58 <    gregdek> | Now general talk about making the build tools available. 16:58 <    gregdek> | But we can do more. 16:58 <    gregdek> | I LIKE COCAINE. 16:58 <   blizzard> | speaking of freebasing 16:59           --> | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:59 <        jwb> | what? 16:59 <    gregdek> | Nothing. 16:59 <    gregdek> | Moving on: 16:59           --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 11am. Identifying the Problems to be Solved for Opening Fedora. 16:59 <    gregdek> | Max is making a list on the board. To wit: 16:59 <        f13> | jwb: Fedora is a freebase from which to smoke your own flavor of crack 16:59 <        jwb> | f13, ah thanks 17:00 <  Lovechild> | f13: just don't do a Richard Pryor on us now 17:00 <    gregdek> | 1. Build Infrastructure for both packages and distro. 17:00 <    gregdek> | 2. Source infrastructure. 17:00 <    gregdek> | 3. Release methodology: freezes, updates. 17:00 <    gregdek> | 4. Architectures. 17:00 <        jwb> | 4 can tie into 1 17:01 <   blizzard> | yes 17:01 <   blizzard> | it can 17:01           --> | pink_trout (Pink Ponies) [n=TroutFis@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:01 <     nasrat> | gregdek: there is nothing hard about posting to mailing lists (eg anaconda-devel-list) but people consistently fail to push patches that way 17:02           --- | greendisease sets modes [#fedora-summit +o gregdek] 17:02 <@   gregdek> | 5. QA and Testing. 17:02 <   dgilmore> | gregdek: aurora isint quite retarded  its like the dyslexic slightly dysfunctional half brother you dont want :D 17:02 <      wilee> | Is sun java going to be in fc7  ? 17:02 <        jwb> | wilee, offtopic at the moment 17:03 <@   gregdek> | Bits aren't dropping until March of 2007... so, no. And off-topic. ;-) 17:03 <       spot> | sun java will go into Fedora when source code is available. :) 17:03 <      wilee> | sorry, but this is a big deal to a lot of folks 17:04 <@greendiseas> | we understanfd, its just not part pof the discussion at this point 17:05 <@   gregdek> | It's a big deal to us too. 17:05 <@   gregdek> | But we've got plenty of time to think about it, heh. 17:07 <@   gregdek> | 3. Release methodology: freezes, updates, lifecycle, branding. 17:08 <@   gregdek> | 0. Platform. Fedora Standard Base, flavors, Live CD, etc. 17:10 <  Lovechild> | so are we going for an Ubuntu like setup where the Fedora project commits to providing a base plus a desktop then leaves alternatives to the community in a collarobative fasion? Also how would that suit people like the OLPC who might want influence on base 17:11 <@   gregdek> | 6. Project Hosting. 17:13 <  Lovechild> | if we have a distributed revision control system hosting everything on Fedora servers wouldn't be a major issue since the overlapping between spec files and packages wouldn't be huge.. right? 17:13 <        jwb> | Lovechild, huh? 17:13 <@   gregdek> | Maybe. 17:14 <@   gregdek> | We're getting issues on the board right now, so we can put a timetable for discussion around them. 17:14 <@   gregdek> | So we're not going to drill down too deeply just yet. 17:14 <  Lovechild> | understood 17:15 <  Lovechild> | might we not have to look into communications infrastructure? 17:16 <        jwb> | Lovechild, example? 17:17 <  Lovechild> | jwb: it's suboptimal to allow derived projects without enabling them to talk together - we should harness the power for the freedom we are giving people by allowing them to work together. 17:17           --> | davidz (David Zeuthen) [n=davidz@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:18 <   blizzard> | z of the david 17:18 <     davidz> | c of the blizzard! 17:18 <   dgilmore> | Lovechild: we have mailing lists, and irc  do you want something like a jabber.fedoraproject.org server also? 17:18 <        jwb> | Lovechild, what dgilmore said... 17:18 <        thl> | please, not another communication way (like jabber) :-/ 17:19 <        thl> | it's hard enought to keep track of everything already 17:19 <   dgilmore> | thl: indeed 17:19 <  Lovechild> | dgilmore: I meant more when a new project is registered it would be nice if they also got free means of communications.. I would favor a means of communications that referencable from other teams like a mailing list with a webarchive 17:19 <        f13> | Lovechild: that could fall under 'project hosting' 17:19 <        thl> | Lovechild, i think the "enabling them to talk together" with improve over  timne 17:19 <        jwb> | Lovechild, i think that's part of 6. Project hosting 17:20 <@   gregdek> | Absolutely. 17:21 <  Lovechild> | okay, I'll take your word for that then. 17:21           --> | dmalcolm (David Malcolm) [i=dmalcolm@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:23 <@   gregdek> | 7. IS/IT/Infrastructure issues. 17:23 <        jwb> | ugh 17:23 <   blizzard> | ? 17:23 <@   gregdek> | Heh. We hates it, precious. 17:23 <@   gregdek> | 8. I18N issues. 17:24 <@   gregdek> | 8. I18N/Docs related issues. 17:24 <        jwb> | blizzard, IS/IT issues are always painful. doesn't matter what company is involved :) 17:26 <   dgilmore> | gregdek: on 7  we need a better way for Fedora Infrastructure to communicate with Red Hat IS/IT 17:26 <         jwb> | or find a company that is willing to host it all 17:27 <      smooge> | on 7 you also need a better communication with Red Hat Finance (or whatever it its called) as money is what talks about priorities for RH IS/IT 17:27 <@    gregdek> | smooge: +1 17:28 <    dgilmore> | smooge: on that we need some communication 17:30 <@    gregdek> | Break time.  Back in a few. 17:31 <@    gregdek> | Next up: Platform Discussion. 17:34 <      smooge> | The big thing is that IS/IT serves 2 masters which never works well. Finance controls the strings but works their puppets in IT, the customers control the request and work through their puppets in IT to finance 17:36 <       wilee> | since this is a break 17:37 <    blizzard> | smooge is ever the conspiracy theorist 17:37 <   blizzard> | I miss smooge 17:37 <@   gregdek> | Gee, you'd think that smooge had worked with RH and knew all the poor suckers who still work there. Or something. 17:37 <        f13> | bah 17:37 <   blizzard> | dance, monkey, dance! 17:37 <        f13> | smooge has no idea what it takes to release a product. 17:39           <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("Leaving") 17:39 <      wilee> | what are the chances of getting brutus into extras ? http://www.omesc.com/modules/main_module/ 17:40 <        jwb> | wilee, you should ask on #fedora-extras 17:40 <      wilee> | ok 17:40 <         jwb> | wilee, this channel usually doesn't even exist and is only here for a couple days to cover a meeting being held 17:42 <@   gregdek> | Getting started again. 17:43 <   blizzard> | greg keeps hurting me 17:43            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 11:45am, Fedora Orbital Mind Control Lasers (i.e. Platform) 17:44 <     warren> | crap. I didn't know it did mind control too. 17:44 <   blizzard> | warren: then we've succeeded 17:44 <     smooge> | f13, you are quite right.. never did it myself.. never tried to run a mirror, and never tried to figure out how to cut costs to meet a price mark 17:44 <        f13> | hehe 17:45 <        f13> | smooge: clearly you're just talking out your arse. 17:45             * | davidz uhh; Orbital Lasers again!! More talk about blowing up Denmark? 17:45 <@   gregdek> | Now we are discussing the "Fedora Platform" or the "Fedora Standard Base". 17:45 <     warren> | katzj: Obviously Part of Platform: What compiler? 17:45 <     warren> | blizzard: Stuff comfortable making promises about 17:45 <     warren> | davej: There will be a kernel 17:47 <     warren> | katzj: Include things that are obvious: base kernel, compiler, glibc, GNOME, X 17:47 <      warren> | notting: guaranteeing ABI of a particular version of that platform 17:47 <     warren> | blizzard: 20 guys on GNOME, 1 guy on KDE 17:47 <     warren> | notting: that could change, we have community 17:47 <     warren> | blizzard: question of release criteria 17:47 <     warren> | blizzard: enough interest, anything can become part of the release 17:47 <     warren> | katzj: platform implies a certain thing over life of release 17:48 <     warren> | Extras, rolling release, Core, updates 17:48 <     warren> | mindset sort of thing 17:48 <     warren> | Platform do updates 17:48 <     warren> | other things have rolling 17:49 <     warren> | bits in platform works together with each other 17:49 <     warren> | Extras - bumping is OK, as long as you bump five other things 17:49 <     warren> | Platform - minimalize changes that require other changes 17:49 <     warren> | davej: kernel interfaces change 17:49 <     warren> | blizzard: too easy to get trapped into RHEL mindset, are important, but not as important 17:50 <     warren> | barrier for making change (warren: progress) in Fedora is lower 17:50           --> | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:50 <     warren> | katzj: some scientific libraries in Extras move faster, not part of platform 17:51 <     warren> | blizzard: why care about platform? 17:51 <     warren> | katzj: care because if we are allowing spins at arbitrary points of time, there have to be things that are consistent at that point 17:51 <     warren> | not in the middle of a mass rebuild for a new gcc 17:51 <     warren> | jkeating: "Fedora" release must be what is declared for that released platform 17:52 <     warren> | (talking too fast) 17:52             * | warren argh!!! 17:52           --> | jrp (Dark Reaper) [n=whatever@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:52 <     warren> | blizzard: 1) Lead up to release 17:52 <      warren> | 2) post-release 17:53 <     warren> | katzj: Platform is what defines a release point. 17:53 <     warren> | blizzard: time based releases 17:53 <     warren> | notting: ABI's in core change! 17:53 <     warren> | katzj: argh!!!! 17:54 <     warren> | notting: we've changed RPM in the past 17:54 <     warren> | gregdek: never again change RPM until the day we replace it 17:54 <      warren> | blizzard: choice of ABI change, x.org 7.0/7.1, want to bump to 7.1 17:54 <     warren> | example of gratuitous 17:54 <     warren> | decided not to do so 17:54 <      warren> | jkeating: balance we have to strike 17:55 <     warren> | blizzard: enable making some of those choices 17:55 <     warren> | (wanting to provide choice of 7.0 or 7.1) 17:55 <     warren> | davej: need to provide drivers for too many flavors 17:55 <     warren> | katzj: why is X interesting to do that and gcc isn't. 17:55 <      warren> | gregdek: agree on notion of promise, platform 17:55 <     warren> | blizzard: promise to make to ourselves 17:56 <     warren> | We know as a community we can do the work to get something out the door. 17:56 <     warren> | Post-release the promise is different. 17:56 <     warren> | No gratutious ABI breakage unless there is great end-user benefit 17:56 <     warren> | Post-release, promise to maintain the platform 17:56 <     warren> | update if necessary 17:57 <     warren> | Promise to not gratuitously break. 17:57 <  Lovechild> | would this include roadmap promises like Fedora Platform Foo will ship GCC 4.1.x, xorg 7.2, etc? 17:57 <      warren> | Lovechild, kind of the idea yes. 17:57 <     warren> | Lovechild, dependent on things we can't control though, like upstream schedules 17:58 <        f13> | warren: Lovechild: we do some of htat now, with saying we'll target gnome foo-bar for the release. 17:58 <  Lovechild> | naturally but an admirable goal 17:58 <     warren> | notting: I want to write software for Fedora, what interfaces should I use? 17:58 <     warren> | Change or remove things from platform, try to announce well in advance. 17:58 <     warren> | jkeating: target this gcc, glibc, gnome version, try to know ahead of time by looking at roadmap 17:59 <     warren> | promise that these components will be in the platform 17:59 <     warren> | We've had it with GNOME, let people know why we are removing it in the future. 17:59 <     warren> | (just an example) 17:59 <     warren> | QA... 17:59 <        jrb> | huh? 17:59 <        jrb> | we're removing gnome? 17:59 <     warren> | jrb, s/GNOME/foo/ 18:00 <        jrb> | we're replacing gnome with foo? 18:00             * | jrb misses some point... 18:00 <   blizzard> | strawman :) 18:00 <@greendiseas> | i vote for xfce 18:00 <      warren> | blizzard: Technical roadmaps are nearly impossible, that is why we do time based releases 18:00 <         jwb> | that wasn't quite the context 18:01 <      warren> | Gregdek: innovation will happen around us whether we (something do something) or not. 18:01 <@greendiseas> | we're just trying to define what the criteria for a roadmap should be 18:01 <      davidz> | So.. anyone explain why is it interesting to know the versions of the components like X.org / gcc at all? 18:01 <@greendiseas> | and if we decide to drop something from the platform, we should let people know, vis-a-vis and accordsing to the roadmap 18:02 <      warren> | gregdek: Question: Cases where we allow people outside to own packages, do we explicitly define notion of RH being prime maintainer? 18:02 <      warren> | katzj: No, person is primary maintainer. Person works for RH, job function, might reassign, but ... 18:02 <     warren> | Fedora is about people. 18:02 <     davidz> | either I'm an open source developer and you can patch my sources... otherwise I'm an ISV (e.g. Real, Adobe) and just statically link everything but what the LSB tells me 18:02 <      warren> | blizzard: Success condition over time, more external contributions over time. 18:03 <     warren> | mozilla, took seven years 18:03           --> | corbet (unknown) [n=user@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:03 <     warren> | What happens when community folks say they want to maintain Xen? 18:03 <     warren> | katzj: They wont want to. 18:03             * | davidz just not sure why it's useful to know the versions of e.g. X.org and gcc - apart from some fuzzy feeling that next Fedora will include new X.org, Cairo or gstreamer goodness 18:03 <     davidz> | (for example) 18:03 <     warren> | "Who wants to touch that?  Be real.", says gregdek 18:03 <@greendiseas> | davidz: from an api perspective 18:03 <     warren> | blizzard: We want to enable contribution, but gregdek: policy decision of board 18:04 <@greendiseas> | if we are going to define the release of this platform is based on Xorg.foo 18:04 <     warren> | katzj: Who brought xen into distro? that's who leads that 18:04 <@greendiseas> | and we are encouraging derivatives 18:04 <     davidz> | greendisease: no, either the app is open source and packager can patch... otherwise it's binary only and statically links everything but what the LSB prescribes 18:04 <     warren> | Example: yum was brought into Fedora by community 18:04 <     warren> | yum is maintained by community 18:04 <     warren> | jeremy is package monkey 18:05 <     warren> | blizzard: if RH wants to own something, RH needs to give resources, lead ... and be upstream 18:05 <     warren> | warren: accountable 18:06             * | davidz thinks it would be a lot more useful to convey more high-level roadmap - e.g. "next Fedora will contain feature X, Y and Z", not "next Fedora will include X.org 7.2, gcc 4.3" etc. - e.g. features, not API/ABI 18:06 <   blizzard> | davidz: ageed around the room, I think 18:06 <     warren> | Who determines ownership of a particular package when the result is important to RH's business. 18:07 <   blizzard> | he who steps up to the plate 18:07 <     warren> | Sometimes inside, sometimes outside 18:07 <     warren> | yum is proof that outside model can work 18:07 <     warren> | notting: tried model of past, "gatekeeper", painful 18:07 <     warren> | katzj: committer to upstream yum 18:08 <     warren> | blizzard: if RH is failing, someone else can improve it on the side and prove they can do it better. 18:08 <     warren> | currently no way of making this visible in a central location 18:08 <     warren> | ALTERNATIVES!? 18:08             * | warren argh!! 18:09 <     warren> | (i'm not sure how to transcribe what they are talking about now) 18:10 <  Lovechild> | warren: then hit them with a cluebat 18:10 <     warren> | gregdek: getting high off of dry-erase marker 18:10 <     warren> | Greg intervention 18:10           --> | llunved (llunved) [i=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:11 <     warren> | Platform: This is the set of packages we will not break gratuitously. 18:12 <     warren> | Graph: gratuitous breakage over packages 18:12 <     warren> | curve 18:12 <     warren> | glibc/gcc (left bottom) 18:12 <     warren> | gnome X 18:12            --> | jwhimpel (Fedora Summit) [n=chatzill@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:12 <     warren> | KDE/XFCE 18:12 <     warren> | firefox 18:13 <     warren> | kmod/madwifi (top right) 18:13 <     warren> | davej: nvidia, like anyone uses that 18:13 <     warren> | How do we come up with list of packages that are in the platform? 18:14 <     warren> | strong visible roadmap: these are things that will be in this version 18:15 <     glezos> | It would be so cool if we had a webcam in there... :/ 18:16 <     warren> | (Discussion of how to decide what exactly is a platform) 18:16 <     warren> | more than just an ABI 18:16 <@greendiseas> | glezos: we're all really ugly, you probably dont want to see us on camera 18:16 <     warren> | example: behavior of GNOME menus not going to change in an update 18:17 <     glezos> | greendisease, a microphone 18:17 <     glezos> | equally cool. anyway. This streaming is very useful too. :) 18:18 <     warren> | Max: Care less about frequency of changes, care more about QA 18:18 <      warren> | figure out if platform is small core set of stuff that all fedora building comes from 18:19 <      warren> | How do you make it clear when not to update a package that breaks something 18:20 <      warren> | Extras is rolling, but this will be problematic when EVERYTHING becomes Extras. 18:21 <      warren> | Platform matters because you need a stable base to build upon. 18:21 <      warren> | Rebuildability and maintainability. 18:21 <      warren> | Part of the problem: Signaling other people to rebuild 18:21 <      warren> | example: openssl 18:21 <      warren> | rebuild openssl, oh crap! 18:21 <         thl> | hasn't one of the fooBSDs a platform modell? 18:21 <      warren> | everyone needs to rebuild everything that uses it 18:22 <      warren> | jkeating: we do not want automated builds 18:22 <     warren> | debian autorebuilds things against openssl 18:22 <     warren> | jkeating, gregdek: need way to test builds to see if it breaks things 18:23 <     warren> | katzj: distribution issues are huge, bandwidth resources necessary 18:23 <     warren> | notting: build openssl, dep check repo, built in scratch collection, dep check again to see if fixed 18:24 <     warren> | katzj: Today: Core defines the stable base with certain gcc/glibc, etc. 18:24 <      warren> | blizzard: whatever version you happen to have at release time 18:24 <  Lovechild> | well what's the magnatude of this issue, the majority of updates are harmless from this prespective right and the majority of contributors should be wise enough to shot off a mail or bugzilla entry when there's a problem like this - let's not define policy around corner cases 18:25 <     warren> | Platform: All packages for which we will announce version at release time. 18:25 <     warren> | katzj: a project communicates a set of features 18:25 <     warren> | blizzard: fedora specific stuff, I want to do features, not versions 18:26 <     warren> | Lovechild, "Should" 18:26 <     warren> | Tool problem 18:26 <     warren> | not a problem now, different policy for core than Extras. 18:27 <     warren> | warren: occasionally is a problem in Extras 18:27 <     warren> | (again: tools problem) 18:27 <     warren> | Policy, violate, whack! 18:27 <     warren> | Cascade of rebuilds happen in devel, but not released. 18:28 <     glezos> |  To generalize the idea for Platform, one idea is to define rough zones of package importance (where Platform is zone 1 and Core was something like zones 1-3). If distinction becomes modular and is reflected in final shipped CDs, then the more CDs one downloaded the more software he could install. 18:28 <     warren> | gregdek: We need scratch tools, see what changes are need, "OMG! 600 packages?" 18:28 <     warren> | katzj: really easy to tell, ABI change or not 18:28 <     warren> | (something about pornography that I missed) 18:29 <  Lovechild> | pornography.. oh man I so wanted to hear the context of that one.. 18:30 <     warren> | katzj: What is platform trying to do? 18:30 <     warren> | trying to define a release 18:30 <     warren> | set of stuff that a release is built around, distros built around 18:30 <     warren> | can't have a rolling platform 18:30 <     warren> | Extras is not the platform 18:30 <     warren> | Core is the platform (now) 18:30 <     warren> | Core is too huge as a platform 18:31           --> | stavrosg (Stavros Giannouris) [n=stavrosg@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:31 <     warren> | some in Extras wants to stop these gratuitous breakages 18:31 <     warren> | key question, how many changes does this change cascade to? 18:32 <     warren> | Proposed policy statement, how many changes does this create? 18:32 <     warren> | If more than X changes, requires approval from $HIGHER_AUTHORITY. 18:32 <     warren> | want to avoid gratuitous change 18:32 <     warren> | (tools problem) 18:32 <     warren> | katzj: How bigness of change? 18:33 <     warren> | openssl, backport security fixes to avoid gratuitous rebuild the world. 18:33 <     warren> | notting: define common sense 18:33 <     warren> | gregdek: define platform by common sense criteria, doomed to fail 18:33 <     warren> | notting: but that is what we are trying to do 18:33            --> | couf (Bart Couvreur) [n=bart@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:33 <     warren> | notting: invalidate documentation guides? 18:35 <     warren> | Platform: Sliding scale that prevents gratuitous change when we move to a "Universe" model. 18:36 <     warren> | (Extras could be held at a higher standard to avoid big cascading changes.) 18:36 <     warren> | directfb? 18:36 <     warren> | =( 18:36              * | warren wonders why we *NEED* things to be linked to directfb?  how important is that really? 18:36 <      mether> | how many volunteer packagers would be able to keep up with a 6 month release and freeze process? 18:37 <      warren> | notting: don't write things in tcl! 18:37 <      warren> | not i18nized 18:37 <      warren> | blizzard: don't do new things in tcl 18:37 <      warren> | (religious wars happening over table) 18:37            <-- | jrp has quit  18:37            <-- | rdieter has quit (Connection reset by peer) 18:37 <      davidz> | gitk is tk IIRC 18:38 <      davidz> | for example 18:38 <         jwb> | it is 18:38 <         jwb> | but qgit isn't 18:39 <      warren> | (people are antsy and hungry) 18:39            --> | ChitleshGoorah ([3ea0658d]  chriscole.info CGI:IRC User) [i=cgiircus@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:40 <@   gregdek> | Am I still here 18:40 <@   gregdek> | Yes, good. :) 18:41 <     warren> | (having network connectivity issues) 18:41 <      glezos> | Is defining a platform enough for solving the problems it addresses? Or a more general ranking of package importance is needed (where really important packages == Platform)? 18:44 <         f13> | glezos: the platform helps us to define what the "more" important packages are. 18:44 <      warren> | * Platform is a sliding scale to to prevent gratuitous change in our new universe world. 18:44 <      warren> | * Platform provides some of what core provides now in terms of defining a release. 18:45 <      warren> | * We are defining common sense. 18:45              * | warren stomach growling. 18:45 <    blizzard> | food 18:45 <    blizzard> | we're ordering 'pies' 18:45 <    blizzard> | I want apple 18:45            --> | mizmo (Máirín Duffy) [i=duffy@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:46            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 12:45 AM -- lunch break 18:46 <      samfw> | late lunch :) 18:46            --- | gregdek has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 12:45 PM -- lunch break 18:47            <-- | jberman has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:47 <    blizzard> | hungry 18:47              * | lmacken rolls out of bed 18:47 <     lmacken> | mornin' 18:51            --> | rdieter1 (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter1@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:57 <         f13> | the hunger. 18:58            --> | coufer (Bart Couvreur) [n=bart@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:04            --> | mspevack (Max Spevack) [n=mspevack@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:04 <    mspevack> | ok 19:04 <    mspevack> | right now we're doing several things 19:04 <    mspevack> | 1) waiting for pizza 19:05 <   mspevack> | 2) gregdek is updating the FedoraSummit page based on some of the things we talked about this morning 19:05 <    mspevack> | 3) people are sort of just bumping around on the internet for a little bit, kind of decompressing 19:05 <     glezos> | In an ideal world, shipped CDs/media will contain gradually less imporant packages and one could get a system running with 1 CD 19:05 <      glezos> | mspevack, thanks for the updates. :) 19:07           <-- | couf has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:08            --- | coufer is now known as couf 19:09            --> | |DrJef| (spacious... he's so) [n=jefrey@removed] has joined #fedora-summit 19:10            <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 19:12 <   Lovechild> | glezos: in an ideal world I would be sleeping with Jessica Alba.. but sadly this is not an ideal world 19:12            --> | mdomsch (Matt Domsch) [n=mdomsch@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:13 <      glezos> | Lovechild, I guess :) But that doesn't mean we shouldn't improve things, right? 19:14 <        f13> | glezos: lowering the cd count is one goal. 19:14 <        f13> | you _can_ get a system running with 1 cd NOW. 19:15 <        jwb> | erm... since when? 19:19 <  Lovechild> | jwb: as I recall if you select the desktop install using US english locale it will ask for the second cd but not use it.. it's not pretty though 19:19 <     glezos> | f13, yeah.. I'm just wondering if with the upcoming FC/FE merge, we would be needing a way to rank packages with decreasing popularity/importance. Anyway, just some food for thought. 19:19 <        jwb> | that means you need 2 CDs 19:20 <  Lovechild> | jwb: you can probably just ignore the request for cd2.. I haven't tried it myself though since I use da_DK locale 19:20 <    mdomsch> | glezos, RHN has a backend that lets RH corp know which packages are installed on any given system 19:20 <    mdomsch> | I think that would be beneficial to Fedora too 19:20 <    mdomsch> | installed != using, but it's a better proxy than nothing 19:20 <        f13> | jwb: if you forgo gui, you only need 1 CD 19:20 <   Lovechild> | mdomsch: kinda like popularity contest in debian? 19:21 <        jwb> | f13, hm.. i recall doing just that on PPC and it still needed 2 19:21 <        f13> | ppc is the broken platform 19:21 <        f13> | because ppc needs a library that is ppc only and on CD 2 19:21 <    mdomsch> | Lovechild, not familiar with that, but sounds right 19:21 <        jwb> | ok 19:21 <         f13> | I noted this in the TreeTesting page 19:21 <        f13> | holy crap we have another ppc user. 19:21 <        jwb> | you have more than you think 19:21 <  Lovechild> | mdomsch: it's basically a tiny program that phones home to tell debian which packages you have installed.. 19:22 <     glezos> | um.. I'm on PPC too. :) 19:22 <        f13> | jwb: not according to the download counts... 19:22 <         jwb> | f13, we've been over this.  ppc users are smart and just rsync rawhide a few days before the release ;) 19:22 <  Lovechild> | both our PPC users in the same irc room... 19:23 <        jwb> | dwmw2 has trained us well 19:23 <        f13> | so is there enough ppc users to sustain the arch on its own? (like aurora?) 19:24 <        jwb> | if you let external machines plug into the buildsys 19:24 <        f13> | aurora doesn't... 19:24 <        jwb> | which should be done for aurora 19:24           --- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit, Day 1: 2:00 restart with "Build Infrastructure" 19:25 <        f13> | jwb: yeah, that topic is later. 19:25 <        jwb> | f13, yep 19:25 <     glezos> | Do we have an estimation on the size of Fedora Universe? 19:25 <        f13> | yes 19:26 <   blizzard> | BILLIONS AND BILLIONS 19:27 <     glezos> | FC+FE in GBs? 19:28 <  Lovechild> | blizzard: I think you finally snapped... 19:28 <     davidz> | blizzard: "ok, I'll have one" 19:28 <    mdomsch> | glezos, ~5-6k packages 19:28           --> | mmcgrath (http://naim.n.ml.org/ user) [n=mmcgrath@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:28 <    mdomsch> | ~3k SRPMS 19:28             * | mmcgrath is here 19:29           <-- | mdomsch has quit (Remote closed the connection) 19:30           --> | jmbuser (John Babich) [n=jmbuser@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:32 <      samfw> | mspevack: ping 19:32 <   mspevack> | samfw: pong 19:36 <   mspevack> | PIZZA IS HERE! 19:37           --> | Glome (Markus Ilmola) [n=markus@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:48           --> | stickster (Paul W. Frields) [n=stickste@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:51           <-- | |DrJef| has quit ("Leaving") 19:52           --- | stickster is now known as stickster_work 19:59 <   mspevack> | we're getting started 20:00 <   mspevack> | dgilmore: ping 20:00 <   dgilmore> | mspevack: pong 20:00 <@greendiseas> | dgilmore: read your private messages 20:01 <   mspevack> | dgilmore: i sent you a /msg 20:01           --> | poelcat (John Poelstra) [i=slick@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:02 <   dgilmore> | im there 20:02 <   mspevack> | jesse is leading the conversation now 20:03 <  Lovechild> | all hail Jesse.. leader of the free world 20:03 <   mspevack> | mspevack is handling the IRC notes 20:04 <   mspevack> | jesse -- "so, the build system.  right now we have plague, which does ok for extras" 20:04           --> | halfline (http://naim.n.ml.org/ user) [i=rstrode@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:04 <   mspevack> | "not really any sort of management layer on top of plague -- collections, tagging, etc" 20:05 <   mspevack> | conversation about how yum and plague interact (inheritance based on repos), etc. 20:05 <    mspevack> | spot, toshio, and dgilmore on the phone 20:06 <   mspevack> | jesse -- "important things that we want are: 20:06            --> | ChitleshGoorah ([3ea0658d]  chriscole.info CGI:IRC User) [i=cgiircus@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:06 <    mspevack> | collections with tags 20:06 <    mspevack> | inheritance 20:06 <    mspevack> | ability to create collections based on tags on the fly 20:07 <    mspevack> | example -- someone wants to upgrade python, but it will break other stuff.  so you create a dist-fc7-python collection that inherits from dist-fc7 20:07 <    mspevack> | this idea extrapolates out to freezes" 20:07 <   mspevack> | max -- "what about embargoes" 20:08 <   mspevack> | jeremy -- "don't do much for it now, let's not worry about it for the moment" 20:08 <   mspevack> | jesse -- "let's talk about what a tag is" 20:08 <   mspevack> | package database. every time a package nvr is built, it is placed in the database with information (the build root, etc) 20:08 <   mspevack> | if you want the package in dist-fc7, you tag the package in the db for dist-fc7 20:09 <   mspevack> | then you can pull out all packages with a certain tag, for a release 20:09 <   mspevack> | a "collection" is a set of packages with the same tag 20:09 <   rdieter1> | r 20:09 < ChitleshGoo> | take for example, new guile in fc6 breaks geda packages in FE 20:09 < ChitleshGoo> | hence what should be done here ? 20:10 <   mspevack> | what tags, collections, inheritance get us is a better way of getting stuff out of the build system 20:10 <   mspevack> | these things don't exist in the extras build system, that we need 20:11 <   mspevack> | to have in any sort of "global" build system for the Fedora Universe 20:11 < ChitleshGoo> | on fc5 guile-1.6 on fc6 guile-1.8, geda no longer works properly for fc6 20:12 <   rdieter1> | ChitleshGoorah: imo, that's more geda's (ie, upstream) issue. 20:12 <        jwb> | ChitleshGoorah, that is more along the lines of the topics discussed this morning. the meeting has moved on now 20:12 <     warren> | mspevack, should mmcgrath be on the call too? 20:12 <   mspevack> | mmcgrath: i'll /msg you the call in info 20:12 < ChitleshGoo> | rdieter1: but I'm releasing a broken geda for fedora 20:12 <   mmcgrath> | warren: I'll be unavailable for another 40 minutes or so :( 20:12 < ChitleshGoo> | jwb: ok, anyone can send me the log ? 20:12 <    mspevack> | jeremy -- "to overstate the obvious, we want to keep using mock" 20:13 <      warren> | mmcgrath, things are ok, thanks. 20:13 <    mmcgrath> | mspevack: thanks 20:13 <    rdieter1> | ChitleshGoorah: is upstream aware? 20:13 <    mspevack> | we just need some management on top of mock, which is what jesse is talking about 20:13 < ChitleshGoo> | rdieter1: yes 20:13 <    mspevack> | jesse -- interesting questions are: 20:13 <      warren> | ChitleshGoorah, that is not the current topic 20:13 <    mspevack> | 1) do we add some of RHAT's internal tools on top of plague? 20:13 < ChitleshGoo> | warren: ok 20:13 <   mspevack> | 2) do we continue to fight to get RHAT's internal changes externalized 20:14 <    mspevack> | max -- "didn't the board say a month or so ago that if we didn't get progress by 11/15, we'd move on our own?" 20:16 <    mspevack> | blizzard -- "instead of worrying about manpower, what if we took what is brew today and set it up outside?" 20:16 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "would require a fair bit of rewrite" 20:17 <    mspevack> | max -- comparative effort between implementing our own stuff on top of plague vs. getting RHAT's internal code ready for release? 20:17 <    mspevack> | jesse -- "about the same: 20:17 <    mspevack> | bill -- "are we allowed to take RHAT's internal code and put it out?" 20:18 <    mspevack> | what we have heard is that the blocking factor is resources to get the existing code released. 20:18 <    mspevack> | bill -- either way, we have very specific needs. so let's enumerate them 20:19 <   mspevack> | brew has extra stuff that fedora doesn't need: 20:19 <   mspevack> | - sarbox stuff 20:19 <   mspevack> | - additional tracking 20:19 <   mspevack> | - metadata that's useful for packages that customers are paying money for 20:19 <   mspevack> | - etc. 20:19 <         jwb> | why isn't that useful for fedora? 20:20 <   mspevack> | that's what blizzard just asked 20:20           --> | |DrJef| (spacious... he's so) [n=jefrey@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:20             * | thl will be afk now, sorry for leaving 20:20 <   mspevack> | jesse -- "difference it makes is in bloat and slowdown, getting information out of build and into database, rate at which database will grow.  problems we are dealing with internally" 20:20 <        thl> | hae fun everyone 20:21 <   mspevack> | all package header metadata is imported 20:21 <   mspevack> | what I am hearing is that there's a lot of data 20:21 <   mspevack> | all being tracked 20:21           --- | You're now known as thl_afk 20:21 <   mspevack> | not necessarily being done in the best way possible internally 20:21 <   mspevack> | and it needs to be fixed. so it would be nice to fix these problems in our Fedora work, rather than inherit new problems 20:21 <   mspevack> | jesse -- "not sure how much of this stuff can just be turned off either" 20:22 <   mspevack> | jeremy -- what features are necessary? 20:22 <   mspevack> | VERY BASIC 20:22 <   mspevack> | 1) build package via mock 20:22 <    mspevack> | 2) queue packages 20:22 <   mspevack> | 3) import package metadata into database 20:23 <    mspevack> | 1) build package via mock from SCM 20:23 <   mspevack> | 4) import build info 20:23 <    mspevack> | question -- optional arches? 20:24 <    mspevack> | dan -- code exists for enablign optional builds on secondary arches, it just isn't enabled right now 20:24              * | nirik thinks there might be a lot of tie in with this and the package database: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/PackageDatabase 20:25              * | mspevack just asked that same question 20:25            --> | georgemv (Giorgos Mavrikas) [n=georgemv@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:25 <    mspevack> | 5) package owner tracking, multiple owners 20:25 <   mspevack> | answer is "it's a very similar idea, and one *good* canonical package database can serve multiple purposes" 20:26 <   mspevack> | 5a) "owner" tracking by tag/arch/etc 20:27 <    mspevack> | *various conversation around these bullet points* 20:27 <    mspevack> | ACLs around tags 20:28 <    mspevack> | 6) tagless builds 20:28 <   mspevack> | which are basically "scratch builds" that don't go into any collection 20:29 <   mspevack> | blizzard would like these to be called "personal builds" because of the mindset that implies, and mspevack nods in agreement 20:29 <   mspevack> | 7) chain builds 20:29            --> | vwirem (Van Wirem) [n=vwirem@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:30            --- | vwirem is now known as niavis 20:30            <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 20:31 <    mspevack> | 8) integrate with "fedora identity management" 20:32 <   mspevack> | and that needs to be a black box, making no assumptions on what the account system is at any given time 20:32             * | mspevack knows that we're going to talk about OpenID later on :-) 20:32 <   Lovechild> | mspevack: that sounds awfully buzzwordy 20:32 <    mspevack> | Lovechild: today it's the fedora account system, tomorrow it could be something else (like openid) 20:32              * | mmcgrath is on the bridge 20:33 <    mspevack> | and we'd like any build system <-> account system communication not tie us into any sort of corner 20:33 <    mspevack> | whether it's openID or not doesn't matter -- we want to be able to move to *something else* without too much pain 20:33 <    mspevack> | Lovechild: better?  :-) 20:34 <  Lovechild> | I guess.. I'm not one to comment on that type of issue anyways.. it just sounded like marketing invaded or something 20:34 <   mspevack> | LDAP is a likely delivery mechinism for credentials 20:34 <   mspevack> | Lovechild: heh :-) 20:35 <    mspevack> | 9) delivery mechanism 20:36 <   mspevack> | 10) multilib logic, then compose tools can pull from a single place 20:36            --> | ChitleshGoorah (ircont9k) [n=ircont9k@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:37 <    mspevack> | *continued discussion* 20:37            --> | graveyard (Ruben Kerkhof) [n=graveyar@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:37 <    mspevack> | basically we're trying to make a list of the things a build system needs 20:37 <    mspevack> | then we're going to figure out what of that exists *somewhere* 20:38 <    mspevack> | then we'll see whether it makes more sense to force RHAT code into the open, or write new code in the open to begin with, that will serve our needs 20:38              * | mspevack just listens for a while 20:38 <   Lovechild> | so long as we won't be chasing the opening of that code forever.. 20:39 <    mspevack> | Lovechild: no, we will not.  i'm tired of waiting. 20:39 <   mspevack> | what i want is a specific "we can release the code if you get us X engineering heads to do it" or "we'll never release the code, rewrite it yourselves"  that answer should not take long to get 20:40           --> | sbarn (Steve Barnhart) [n=steve@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:40 <  Lovechild> | that sounds reasonable and quite easy to get.. a black or white answer type thing.. if they don't want to give it to us at least they could stop us from wasting time.. easy to understand and respect 20:40 <   mspevack> | *nod* 20:43 <   mspevack> | some conversation about arches, which we table for later on 20:43 <    mspevack> | now we're going through our feature list and understanding what already exists, and what doesn't 20:44 <   Lovechild> | if we do get that code what is the time horizon in terms of hacking it to suit fedora... something we can do within the fc7 cycle or longer term? 20:44 <   mspevack> | best estimate we've heard so far is "a couple of man months" 20:44 <   mspevack> | which means we need to know what our course of action is pretty much ASAP 20:44 <  Lovechild> | excellent guessimate 20:44 <   mspevack> | like before Xmas 20:45 <   mspevack> | Lovechild: i trust that was sarcastic :) 20:45 <   Lovechild> | mspevack: with an uncertain status I think a couple of man months sounds reasonable.. so no.. 20:45 <    mspevack> | ah, ok 20:45 <   Lovechild> | reasonable but brave 20:46 <    mspevack> | 11) access to build root on failure 20:46 <   mspevack> | bill -- we should ship a Fedora build configuration for mock 20:46 <   mspevack> | jesse -- we have it in makefiles 20:46 <   mspevack> | max -- then we need to make it better and/or make sure people know about it 20:47 <    mspevack> | hey folks on IRC -- what are we missing. What do you folks who do so much packaging for us need? 20:47 <   mspevack> | help us fill out the list. 20:49 <  graveyard> | mspevack: some more up-to-date info about plague would be nice 20:49 < ChitleshGoo> | a possible way to upload and request builds via port 80 20:49 <   mspevack> | build packages via mock (in both plague and brew) 20:49           <-- | niavis has quit ("Leaving") 20:49 <   mspevack> | queue builds (both plague and brew) 20:49 <   mspevack> | import buildinfo (BREW ONLY) 20:50 <   mspevack> | owner tracking by packages (BREW ONLY) 20:50 < ChitleshGoo> | in my hostel, only port80 is open and I have so much kde rpms to share 20:50 <   mspevack> | tagless builds (brew and plague) 20:50 <   mspevack> | optional arches (NEITHER) 20:50 <   mspevack> | personal collections (BREW ONLY) 20:50 <   mspevack> | integrate with identity management (plague) 20:51 <   mspevack> | delivery mechanism (neither, really) 20:51 <   mspevack> | they require distill or rsync 20:51 <   mspevack> | distill == RHAT's compose tool 20:51 <   mspevack> | builders in different locations (plagues) 20:51 <   mspevack> | graveyard: like what? 20:52 <  graveyard> | the config example for plague-client on the wiki is outdated 20:52             * | mspevack will mention the IRC stuff in a break in the conversation 20:53 <  graveyard> | and maybe some info on what to do if you get "insufficient privileges" errors 20:53 <  graveyard> | but that may be just me :-) 20:53            <-- | gregdek [n=gdk@removed]  has left #fedora-summit 20:53            --> | ajax (Adam Jackson) [i=ajackson@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:53 <    mspevack> | access to build root on failure (NEITHER does it right) 20:54 <   Lovechild> | didn't lmacken have some specific input to the requirements at a higher level to provide nice metadata for stuff like security and the likes.. dunno if that's appliable to this debate 20:55            --> | mdomsch (Matt Domsch) [n=mdomsch@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:58            <-- | ChitleshGoorah has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 20:58 <    mspevack> | *much technical conversation that i won't even try to type in real time* 20:59            --> | chitlesh ([3ea0658d]  chriscole.info CGI:IRC User) [i=cgiircus@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 20:59 <    mspevack> | chitlesh: does it have to be port 80, or could it be port 443? 20:59 <   mspevack> | sounds like a firewall issue 21:00 <   chitlesh> | yes its a firewall, out of my control 21:00 <   mspevack> | lmacken's work falls under delivery mechnism, right now it's all done out of band after the build process. 21:00 <   chitlesh> | i can't say exactly but we might test some day 21:00 <   mmcgrath> | chitlesh: http://www.publicproxyservers.com/ ? 21:01 <   chitlesh> | mmcgrath: I can't tunnel anywhere! 21:01 <   mmcgrath> | oh :\ 21:02 <   chitlesh> | even irc i can't connect except cgi-irc 21:02 <@greendiseas> | chitlesh: damn, where is this? a university? 21:03 <   chitlesh> | a hostel 21:03 <@greendiseas> | ahh 21:03 <@greendiseas> | not even https? 21:03 <      nirik> | chitlesh: not even openvpn's http proxy support? (This is off topic tho, so perhaps move to another channel for discussion?) 21:03 <   chitlesh> | well better talk about this latter on 21:03 <       quaid> | mspevack: docs and trans need some hooks into the build process, which are best defined by what is going to be done and what we have in docs/trans right now 21:03 <      quaid> | mainly I mention so as to have you throw in a couple of staffing weeks to get the hooks included 21:04 <      quaid> | the code that exists inside RH has been approved for release, but resources prevent us from doing it. 21:04 <   mmcgrath> | heh 21:04             * | mspevack states quaid's points 21:04 <      quaid> | we wouldn't necc. mind being more better hooked in, but it may not make sense. 21:04 <   mspevack> | quaid: do you need hooks into build process, or into source control that manages what gets built? 21:05 <      quaid> | e.g. we can have our own "docs rawhide" that is different form the RPMs that are built from docs 21:05 <      quaid> | yeah, that is kind of my answer 21:05 <      quaid> | we may not need to be hooked into the build, but at the same time ... maybe we should be 21:05 <      quaid> | I can see now that the RHEL docs are being integrated into the packages in some fashion 21:06           --> | codergeek42_ (Peter Gordon) [n=peter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 21:06 <   mspevack> | quaid: we're going to devote a specific chunk of time to all docs later on, we will revisit then. Jesse's trying to reach some sort of "grand point" right now :-) 21:06 <   mspevack> | docs, i18n, etc. 21:06 <       quaid> | so if we are going to have an connection to that, it means we need to treat our XML like source in the VCS and be part of the packaging love 21:06 <       quaid> | mspevack: roger that, it's related yet stand-alone 21:07 <       quaid> | just if ... well, maybe someone in that room grok's what Red Hat ECS is doing here so could tell us if we need a consideration as part of f13's point or not :) 21:07           --> | ahalsey (allenhalsey) [i=ahalsey@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 21:07 <   mspevack> | i think there's a good deal of ? above people's head right now. we have a "list of questions that need to be answered" 21:07 <   mspevack> | we're going to get paul gampe on the phone 21:08 <   mspevack> | quaid: why don't you call in? 21:09 <      quaid> | sure 21:09 <   mspevack> | i msg you the info 21:10 <   mspevack> | ok, wrapping up (except for karsten) 21:10 <   mspevack> | jesse -- we believe that we now have a list of things that we need for the next release, or else life will be awful 21:10 <   mspevack> | davej - are we prepared to hold up the release? 21:10 <   mspevack> | blizzard -- will require a great job of controlling scope 21:11 <   mspevack> | from the phone -- infra team needs a MUCH BETTER picture of priorities 21:12             * | quaid is here 21:12 <      quaid> | that is, on the phone :) 21:12 <      warren> | quaid, was your earlier question related to alexandria? 21:14 <   Lovechild> | well if we start the transistion we can't very well halt in the middle can we, we have to hold up the release or the infrastructure to release won't be there... rgiht? 21:15 <    mspevack> | jesse adds to the board -- collection inheritance (tag builds for multiple collections) 21:16 <    mspevack> | (BREW) 21:18              * | quaid is off now 21:18   ? 21:50 <      warren> | So... big news of this is *ALL* updates in Fedora in an existing release will have update announcements. 21:50 <     lmacken> | weeeee 21:51              * | warren after all committees approve it. 21:51 <     lmacken> | and useful metadata for pup/pirut 21:51 <      warren> | lmacken, will you be available during Thursday's FESCO meeting to help discuss the tools support angle of this? 21:51             * | dgilmore  has been wanting that 21:51 <     wwoods> | lmacken: *forehead slap* 21:51 <     warren> | lmacken, I think FESCO's acceptance of this will rely on understanding how nice the process is with your update processing system. 21:51 <    lmacken> | warren: i think i can make it 21:52 <     lmacken> | i have to write 2 papers and take 2 more finals this week 21:52 <     warren> | lmacken, putting something online, even just screenshots to show ideas, would help for that meeting. 21:52 <    lmacken> | warren: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UpdatesSystem 21:52 <    lmacken> | warren: like that ? 21:52 <     warren> | lmacken, do you want a publictest* machine to run a mock-up of this? 21:52 <    lmacken> | warren: i'm already working on test6.phx, but a publictest machine would probably be better 21:52 <     warren> | lmacken, damn, you rock! 21:52 <    lmacken> | i know. 21:53 <    lmacken> | :) 21:53 <      wwoods> | Hooray! Let's all talk to zoidberg! 21:53 <      wwoods> | I mean, lmacken! 21:53 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: i can change test6 to publictest6 if you want 21:53 <      warren> | lmacken, just change the IP address to a publictest address and reboot the xen guest, and update the InfrastructurePrivate page. 21:53 <      warren> | or dgilmore 21:53 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: or warrens idea 21:53 <     lmacken> | dgilmore: sure, althought i haven't put any firewall rules on it yet 21:53 <     lmacken> | i still need to hack up a pyroman config profile for our xen guests 21:54 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: public ports are 22 80 443 8887 8888 8889 21:54              * | mmcgrath notes the infrastructure team as a whole is worried about port 22 being open. 21:54            <-- | glezos has quit (Remote closed the connection) 21:54 <    dgilmore> | lmacken: denyhosts needs putting on also 21:54 <   dgilmore> | mmcgrath: yup sure am 21:54 <      warren> | Yes, that is why infrastructure team needs to approve anything that runs on publictest* addresses. 21:54 <     warren> | IDEA 21:54 <     warren> | 1) Approval required of infrastructure team 21:55 <      warren> | 2) denyhosts must be configured 21:55 <     warren> | 3) ssh key authentication ONLY 21:55 <     lmacken> | +1 21:55              * | dgilmore is ok with that 21:55              * | iWolf nods 21:55 <    mmcgrath> | warren: +1 obviously but its going to be difficult to enforce since most people will have root on that box. 21:55 <      warren> | Hmm, we have infrastructure quorum now, let's ratify? =) 21:56 <     warren> | hmmm 21:56 <   mmcgrath> | s/that box/their box/ 21:57 <     warren> | mmcgrath, you're right, that is a flaw in this. 21:58 <   mmcgrath> | I suppose due diligence is required on our part. It won't be perfect but its something. 21:58 <   dgilmore> | warren: end users wont have root  only the people managing the test service 21:58 <     warren> | dgilmore, right 21:58 <     warren> | ok 21:58 <      warren> | Ratify? 21:58 <   mmcgrath> | ratify 21:58 <   dgilmore> | +1 from me 21:58 <      warren> | +1 21:58 <   mmcgrath> | +1 21:58 <      iWolf> | +1 21:58 <     warren> | Given we don't have formal voting rules or a defined quorum size, I guess this is ratified. 21:59 <      iWolf> | :) 21:59 <     lmacken> | good good 22:00              * | warren posts new policy to list. 22:00 <      warren> | lmacken, go ahead and change the IP and reboot the guest, but update the docs to reflect it. 22:00 <     lmacken> | warren: k 22:06 <      warren> | MEETING IS BACK! 22:07 <      warren> | * We have concluded that we want Borat to be the speaker at the next FUDCON. 22:07 <      warren> | Or Colbert 22:08 <    mmcgrath> | Making of the OSS free for people! 22:08              * | dgilmore votes for Borat 22:08              * | mmcgrath votes for Colbert in a mustache. 22:09 <      warren> | * Legacy becomes Fedora Security Team 22:09 <      warren> | * Core becomes Fedora (something), fully external 22:09 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team first Tracks problems and pokes maintainers to fix things. 22:09 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team may also fix things. 22:10 <     warren> | * jeremy -- proposes "fedora sustainability team" 22:10 <     warren> | * other people don't like the name 22:11 <        jwb> | renaming something isn't going to really change anything 22:11 <     warren> | * warren -- Proposed: If an old distribution fails to be maintained (older, less popular), retire it. 22:11 <     warren> | * people don't like that idea, because it is difficult to measure 22:11 <        jwb> | if you don't fix the issues Legacy has right now, you could call whatever you want and it still wouldn't work 22:12 <     warren> | * jeremy -- New Proposal: Security updates happen longer (in some way they are discussing) 22:12 <     warren> | jwb, one idea is that Updates being fully in the open will allow lowering the bar and making it easier to sustain an older distro. 22:13 <     warren> | * mspevack -- I wish you waited a little longer before it becomes legacy. (What he hears often.) 22:13 <        jwb> | warren, "fully in the open" meaning no embargo? 22:13 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Make it two instead of one. 22:13 <     warren> | "running up the flag pole" 22:14 <     warren> | * Possibly distro being fully in the open would allow community to help RH engineering to create updates, thereby reducing pressure on RH engineering. 22:14 <     warren> | * (talking about when to stop bug fixes on a FC release) 22:15 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Proposed: Stop bug fixes and security updates for FC7 at FC9+1 month. 22:15           --> | llunved (llunved) [i=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 22:15 <        jwb> | warren, perhaps but i doubt it. legacy releases are fully in the open now once they become legacy and it hasn't fixed things 22:16 <     wwoods> | So.. that would lengthen the support window by ~60 days? 22:16 <     warren> | * Debating whether or not Fedora will allow Legacy to happen on Fedora infrastructure or not. 22:17 <     warren> | jwb, we don't know for certain 22:17 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Clarity of distro retirement is very important to end users. 22:18 <     smooge> | Fedora DeadRelease Team 22:18 <     warren> | There is skepticism here whether *anybody* can realistically maintain an older distro. 22:18 <        jwb> | warren, the only thing that is certain is death and taxes ;) 22:19 <      warren> | * jeremy -- Big thing, reducing scope. 22:19 <      smooge> | To be honest.. I have to agree.. at this point, I just try to figure out a way to get someone converted to the nearest Centos release. 22:19 <      warren> | * jesse -- currently legacy maintains two releases 22:20 <      warren> | * Fedora Security Team: tracking things for everything during lifecycle 22:20 <      warren> | * FC7 -> FC9+1 month 22:21 <      warren> | * Honesty is important here regarding Legacy's ability to work or fail. 22:21 <      warren> | * jesse -- Legacy went from many to few people 22:22 <      warren> | smooge, "jeremy -- If you need longer term maintenance, then you should look at longer term options like CentOS or RHEL." 22:22 <      warren> | * rdieter -- Compromising, extending lifetime 22:23 <      warren> | * notting -- reality, legacy has dropped down to one packager and a few other people 22:23 <     warren> | (jkeating said too) 22:23 <     warren> | * davej -- upgrade from FC8 to FC10, will be testing that? 22:23 <     warren> | * everyone -- yes 22:23 <     smooge> | we used to have to test upgrade paths from 3 releases back 22:24 <     warren> | NOTE: Things discussed here are proposals, nothing decided yet. 22:24 <     smooge> | RHEL-4.x/RHEL-3.0.3 -> 5.x 22:24 <      smooge> | understood by me 22:25 <      smooge> | most of the people I know who have Fedora Legacy issues had it installed at a colo and needs updates 22:25 <     wwoods> | I think FC(n-3)->FCn upgrades should still be tested, and I think upgrades should get a *lot* of work 22:25 <     warren> | * jesse -- By making these adjustements, this obsoleting the need for an official Fedora Legacy project. 22:25             * | warren this point not entirely in agreement here yet. 22:27 <     warren> | * Extending useful lifetime to 13+ months while stopping to pretend that legacy was useful. We need truthful messaging. 22:27 <     warren> | (Greg) 22:29 <     warren> | * Change 13 month policy for FC5 immediately? 22:29 <     warren> | * Yes, we think, need to check on this. 22:30           <-- | dmalcolm has quit (Client Quit) 22:30 <        jwb> | 13 months from initial release? 22:30 <        jwb> | or 13 months after going legacy? 22:30 <   mdomsch_> | jwb, 13 from initial 22:30 <     warren> | jwb, example: FC7 lives on until FC9 + 1 month 22:30 <     warren> | 13 months is an estimate 22:30           <-- | sbarn has quit (Remote closed the connection) 22:31             * | corbet thinks this is a big step in the right direction 22:31           --> | dmalcolm (David Malcolm) [i=dmalcolm@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 22:31 <     wwoods> | It seems like time spent maintaining (e.g.) FC3 would be better spent working on making upgrades from FC3 -> FC6 worked well 22:31 <     warren> | * Strong perception "legacy is not a success"... because "legacy is not a success" 22:31 <     warren> | wwoods, yes, this is subject to more discussion. 22:31 <     wwoods> | warren: right, just my opinion 22:31 <     smooge> | Strong perception that legacy is dead 22:33 <   mdomsch_> | at 13 months, don't nuke the old tree from the servers, just don't post new updates 22:33 <     warren> | * wwoods keeps his hate strong. 22:33 <      nirik> | would help to have a tested/approved update method using yum... that would allow more folks to update instead of being stuck on old releases. 22:33 <    lmacken> | warren: publictest2 is now the TurboGears guest (xen2) 22:33 <   mdomsch_> | so people running can upgrade when *they* want, not when we release FC(N+2) on our scheudle 22:34 <     warren> | nirik, please propose to FPB later to discuss and possibly ratify that as a standard. 22:34 <     warren> | * Legacy team and RH engineering must approve of the discussed plan. 22:34 <     warren> | nirik, actually, please begin on FAB 22:34 <     warren> | nirik, are you on FAB? 22:35 <      nirik> | nope... I'm not on anything. ;) 22:35 <     warren> | nirik, please talk to me after and we'll fix that. 22:35 <      wwoods> | nirik: upgrading a running system is kind of hard, so yum updates will always be a bit dicey 22:35 <    mdomsch_> | wwoods, I've gone 3->4->5->6 on mine :-) 22:35 <     wwoods> | but I personally feel that yum upgrades should be fully supported 22:35 <   mdomsch_> | not without some pain, but got there 22:35 <     wwoods> | mdomsch_: same here.. and it's kinda gross 22:35 <      nirik> | yeah, although I have done it with the last few releases and the problems have gone down a lot. 22:35 <     warren> | wwoods, many yum upgrade bugs are worth investigating, might not be possible to totally fix, but it is worth doing as an exercise. 22:36 <     wwoods> | e.g. had to nuke my beagle conf to get it to work in FC6 22:36 <   mdomsch_> | once I nuked 3rd party repo packages first 22:36 <     wwoods> | mdomsch_: oh lord, yes. also that. 22:36 <   mdomsch_> | upgraded, then put them back 22:36 <      nirik> | see the decrease in issues on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq for example 22:37           <-- | tibbs has quit ("Konversation terminated!") 22:37 <     wwoods> | mdomsch_: the dirty secret is that anaconda just silently ignores 3rd-party packages. tada! no conflicts! 22:38 <   mdomsch_> | wow 22:39 <     warren> | * jeremy -- reason why we don't officially support upgrade in place, is to allow the flexibility to make fundamental system changes. For example: static dev to udev. 22:39 <     warren> | * max -- Makes it an incredibly hard sell, (Fedora vs. other distro) 22:40 <     warren> | * jeremy -- upgrades have been failing badly for Ubuntu 22:40 <     wwoods> | right, it would be nice if there was a yum-based upgrade that worked *almost* like that 22:40 <     warren> | Like I said, we should *TRY* to make it work, and test it, and fix bugs when we can. 22:40 <     wwoods> | i.e. it pulls all the packages, reboots into an updater image, runs the update, and then boots the new system 22:40 <     warren> | But it might not be possible to guarantee it to work. 22:41 <     wwoods> | someone could probably write a simple python script to do that, in fact. 22:41 <     warren> | Fixing bugs found during in-place yum upgrades often do fix legitimate problems that would happen in anaconda upgrades. 22:42 <     warren> | * Greg - "Put some pants on by the way!" 22:42 <     warren> | * Max - "Let's all understand the way the QA was done for FC6, and what level of community help we had, your time being used for (talking too fast..." 22:43            --- | warren has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- wwoods (QA test lead) interrogation 22:43 <         f13> | ====  Taking a moment to talk to wwoods. ==== 22:43              * | f13 is taking over as IRC monkey 22:43              * | warren hands banana to f13. 22:44            <-- | [splinux]  has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:45 <         f13> | Question, did bug zappers really work well? 22:45 <    dgilmore> | f13: for maybe a week 22:45 <         f13> | Jack: went pretty well when I did it, but fell off when I went back to school.  Lack of bug day coordination. 22:45 <         f13> | Jack: people doing it felt unloved due to lack of coordination and communication. 22:45 <         f13> | Jeremy: Works for gnome, but has a constant driver 22:46 <     warren> | *Talking about ranking system with scores and ranks. 22:46 <     warren> | "level 1 packager with +3 sword." 22:47 <        f13> | Max: Unless the people whom you're asking to do bug work are seeing quick results, the incentive goes away 22:47 <        f13> | Completely right ^^^ 22:47 <        f13> | Max: there seemed to be no control over blocker bugs 22:48 <        f13> | Max: Did Will have the power to block the release? 22:48 <        f13> | Answer: yes. 22:48 <     warren> | * talking about FC6Blocker but not being empty, because anybody could add 22:48 <     warren> | * Freedom to add is important 22:48 <     wwoods> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria 22:48 <     warren> | * Release cabal decided what were the "actual real blockers" and try to be happy at release time 22:49 <     warren> | * release cabal did stop release a few times to fix critical bugs. 22:49 <     warren> | * Max: File a bug, block "test 1 triage", and team goes through it. 22:49 <     warren> | * Jesse -- Maintainers should  look at bugs 22:49 <     warren> | * notting -- maintainers use blockers as a TODO list 22:50 <     warren> | * jeremy -- from prior experience, it is a full time job to do triage 22:50 <     warren> | * davej -- there will always be nasty bugs that can't be fixed (TOO MANY!) 22:50 <     warren> | * max -- Few people that bother to do good things in bugzilla tend to be ignored. 22:51 <     warren> | engineers of packages in core, make what appear to be arbitrary decisions that frustrates and  disincentives community involvement in QA. 22:51 <       ajax> | disincents. 22:51 <     warren> | * greg -- fundamental intractable problem that is QA, identify most useful activities ... (talking too fast) 22:51 <     warren> | * greg -- bug day: virtual equivalent of buying people a pizza to do work 22:52 <     warren> | * promise to people around them to be there (compared to 3 hour party in evercrack) 22:53 <     warren> | * We need commitment from engineering^WFedora contributors to meet community half-way, so QA people feel good about doing it. 22:53 <        f13> | talk about testing.108, and RHTS type stuff. 22:53 <        f13> | the RHTS guys are very excited about bringing it to Fedora 22:55 <     warren> | (RHTS is an automated suite of regression tests.) 22:55 <        f13> | Not all parts are open, and there is chicken / egg problem. No tests to build infrastructure around, no infrastructure to build tests. 22:59           <-- | graveyard has quit 23:00 <        f13> | Discussion regarding watching bug reports and escelating to "common" issues. 23:01 <     warren> | * Greg - People do Extras because they need it. People do translations (even with shit infrastructure) and it succeeds because they need it. 23:02 <     warren> | * Greg - Motivations for communicaty projects are not intrinsic, (digging to bugzilla shit) 23:02 <     smooge> | does this cover about people with large number of NEW bug events to their name from multiple releases? 23:02 <        f13> | Manager/SIG escelation there.. :/ 23:02 <     warren> | Greg: how do we concentrate on making sure that people give a shit about this? 23:03 <     warren> | wwoods -- better tools 23:03 <     warren> | wwoods -- add incentives 23:03 <     warren> | jesse -- enable people to fix shit themselves 23:03 <     warren> | greg -- motivation for filing bug, dependent on increased expectation that bug will actually be fixed 23:03 <     warren> | solve motivation problem? 23:05 <     smooge> | well as a customer and talking to other people.. you don't get new bugs when you see that xyz maintainer hasnt changed a Bugzilla from NEW to TAKEN (or whatever) since 1999 23:05 <     warren> | warren said: 23:05 <     warren> | People driven QA requires constant manual input 23:05 <     warren> | "Bug day" is one-time and did not create something self-sustaining. 23:05 <     warren> | Better investment is to create automated ranking systems (like GNOME Bugzilla) that encourages fundamental changes in volunteer behavior, due to a feeling of competition and accomplishment. 23:05           <-- | markmc has quit ("Leaving") 23:06 <     smooge> | it is also used as sales part from other companies. "Well if they are so good, why isnt NetworkManager bugs ever cleared" 23:07 <     warren> | * Discussing pros and cons of using Bugzilla for a scoring system. 23:09 <     warren> | * Possibility of adding scoring/ranking/reward system to upstream bugzilla, because this is something that projects need in general. 23:10 <   mdomsch_> | split the problem into multiple parts 23:10 <   mdomsch_> | it's not "all bugs" but "class of bugs #1, #2, #3, ..." 23:10 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Bugzilla is featuritis overload. Everyone that uses Bugzilla is forking it. 23:10 <   mdomsch_> | like we did with the BuidRequires 23:11 <   mdomsch_> | karma 23:12 <   mdomsch_> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/FixBuildRequires tried 23:12 <   mdomsch_> | but the folks who did it really didn't do it for karma points 23:13 <   mdomsch_> | they did it for the love of a "better" distro 23:13 <     wwoods> | mdomsch_: yes, that was the interesting thing to me 23:14 <         f13> | speaking of, wwoods, we need to get those karma points redeemed soon. 23:15 <     wwoods> | f13: indeed 23:17 <     warren> | * Possibly scoring could be done by an async process that queries the Bugzilla and updates scores elsewhere periodically. 23:17 <     warren> | * wwoods talking about RHTS ... 23:19 <     warren> | * writing test plans not exciting, but helpful 23:20           --- | jwb is now known as jwb_gone 23:22 <     warren> | * warren: Incentivize writing documentation with Love/Hate links, which contributes to the point ranking system! 23:22 <     warren> | * Single Sign-On is where the points are tracked! 23:22 <     warren> | * Race: Elvish 23:23 <     smooge> | maybe you could tie it into Mugshot? 23:24 <     warren> | smooge, yes, there was discussion of this. 23:24 <     warren> | smooge, Mugshot creates excellent opportunities in devel information sharing 23:25 <     warren> | * (Add some kind of points tracking thing to the account system schema maybe) 23:26 <   dmalcolm> | wwoods: BTW, I've been working on code that makes it very easy to create a regression test for a package's rpmlint output within RHTS 23:26 <     wwoods> | dmalcolm: yay! 23:26 <     warren> | * Points are not about earning stuff, but earning community respect and "cred" 23:26 <     smooge> | I mean I am more interested in recommending bugs/software than songs 23:27 <     warren> | smooge, as Havoc said it earlier today, "If you don't have any nerd friends, you wont see nerd things." 23:27 <        f13> | mdomsch_: thanks for that update (: 23:27 <      warren> | smooge, Mugshot shows you stuff depending on who your friends are. 23:27 <      smooge> | hmmm I guess I don't have any friends :) 23:28           <-- | mspevack has quit ("Leaving") 23:29 <   mdomsch_> | np 23:29              * | mdomsch_ nuked the 16GB of trees a few days ago to reclaim the space 23:29 <        f13> | heh 23:30 <     wwoods> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Testing/Meetings/20061109 23:31 <   dgilmore> | smooge: you and me both :D 23:31 < green_west> | quaid: ping 23:31 < green_west> | quaid: are you on the call 23:33 <     warren> | green_west, the bridge is dead now 23:34 < green_west> | yes, but if he was on, he wouldnt be disconnected 23:34 <     warren> | green_west, new calls incoming after 5pm stopped 23:40 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Meritocracy, people writing code are those who make decisions about the direction of Fedora. 23:41 <   mmcgrath> | s/writing code/doing works/ 23:41 <   mmcgrath> | :P 23:42 <     warren> | * Greg -- What about Live CD? 23:42 <     warren> | * notting -- LiveCD does not rely on anaconda 23:42 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Problem: skill levels required to do a certain thing, VERY DIFFICULT to hire someone to work on anaconda. 23:44 <     warren> | * max -- wanting to solve problem of RH engineering not being able to focus on key priorities important for Fedora 23:44 <     warren> | * jeremy -- difficult o_O 23:44 <        jrb> | hrm 23:44 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Fedora does not do a good job of enumerating what is important 23:44 <     warren> | thus the goal of this summit 23:44 <     smooge> | how do people who actually want to use Fedora but aren't coders (but say admins/IT/bugtesters) have a say in the direction of Fedora 23:45 <     warren> | smooge, meritocracy... if you aren't contributing in a big way, it is difficult to be respected in a meritocracy. 23:45 <     warren> | smooge, if someone without skills but resources (like money), they could put up bug bounties 23:45 <     warren> | Also... if someone without TIME but money, they could put up bug bounties. 23:46 <     warren> | smooge, also... respect alone isn't useful in getting something. WORKING CODE can be. 23:47 <     warren> | (Still talking about resource scarcity) 23:47 <        jrb> | warren: is the goal of the summit to enumerate what's important to fedora? 23:47             * | mmcgrath wonders how other OSS projects deal with resouce issues. 23:48 <     warren> | * jeremy -- Going to world where everything is external, everyone has to be held to the same standards. (Community contributing code determines direction and what happens. ... maybe...) 23:48 <     warren> | jrb, one of many goals of the summit 23:50 <     warren> | jrb, nothing really was decided in finality here. This was mainly a valuable exercise in putting heads together, posing questions and thinking about options. 23:50 <        jrb> | warren: do I get to vote? (-; 23:50 <     smooge> | warren, I understand that but that goes to the question: why would I want to use Fedora for some project if I have no standing in finding that a current direction is broke? 23:51 <      warren> | jrb, in the actual decisions that result from recommendations of this summit, yes. 23:52 <      warren> | jrb, have time to stop by tomorrow on the last day of the summit?  Topics ... LiveCD, What's in Fedora? "non-free" repos/links, FUDCon/Summit, Max's ideas 23:52 <         jrb> | warren: alright... 23:52 <      warren> | * jeremy -- We work upstream, we work upstream, we work upstream. 23:54 <      warren> | * GENERALLY WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT: Resource scarcity problem.  RH can't do everything that is important for Fedora.  Fedora is becoming fully external.  Meritocracy is important to Fedora.  Hopefully this will allow Fedora itself to easier add things that are important to Fedora. 23:55           --- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- Resource scarcity problem - how do we decide what to work on? 23:55 <     warren> | * notting -- (ask eng managers) What things we would like in Fedora we can have egineers work on upstream? 23:55             * | wwoods no longer being interrogated! 23:55           --- | mizmo_ is now known as mizmo-out 23:56 <   mdomsch_> | laptops 23:56 <   dgilmore> | mdomsch_: they are useful :D 23:56 <     warren> | * notting -- interesting thing, why nobody in RHEL cares about LiveCD? 23:56             * | mdomsch_ thinks laptop features should be a key driver for FC7 23:56 <       spot> | because there is so little corporate Linux on desktop? 23:56 <     warren> | * Priority: LiveCD or Xen? 23:56           --- | tibbs|h is now known as tibbs 23:56 <   mmcgrath> | notting: I bet they'll care more when xen, virtualization, and stateless linux takes off. 23:56 <     warren> | something loses =( 23:56 <    mdomsch_> | lowering power consumption 23:57 <    mdomsch_> | wifi / bluetooth 23:57              * | mdomsch_ is hardware-centric 23:57 <      warren> | * Fundamental issue that we try to do as much of everything in upstream in possible 23:57 <    dgilmore> | warren: id choose xen over livecd 23:58 <      warren> | dgilmore, thus it is the job of Fedora to beat^Wencourage a community project to seriously make LiveCD happen. 23:58              * | mdomsch_ needs to go cook steaks soon 23:58 <    mmcgrath> | dgilmore: but you could do both ;-) 23:58 <   dgilmore> | mmcgrath: sure i could 23:58             * | dgilmore is not that sadistic 23:58 <   mmcgrath> | heh 23:58 <   mdomsch_> | part of LiveCD challenge has been - no offense jeremy 23:59 <   mdomsch_> | jeremy saying "sure, I'll work on it, when I've got time" 23:59 <     warren> | * jesse -- Fedora goes after upstream to fix things (crap makefiles, HIG compliance, etc.) 23:59 <   mdomsch_> | which scares others away, because they know he'll do a good job 23:59 <   mdomsch_> | if he gets the time 23:59 <     warren> | * jesse -- Do not patch locally, go after upstream to fix it for everyone. 23:59 <     warren> | * should be job of maintainer 23:59 <   mdomsch_> | e.g. the "don't bite off more than you can chew" --- Day changed Mi Nov 15 2006 00:00 <     warren> | * Max - Let's go drink. 00:00 <     warren> | * Jeremy - Let's sum up what we did today. 00:00 <     wwoods> | It is totally beer-thirty, you guys 00:00 <     wwoods> | GTFO 00:00 <   mmcgrath> | hah! 00:00             * | mdomsch_ is gone 00:01           <-- | rdieter has quit (Remote closed the connection) 00:01             * | wwoods stops lurking on the call and heads home 00:01           <-- | craigt has quit ("Leaving") 00:02           <-- | nasrat has quit ("Leaving") 00:03           <-- | smooge has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") 00:03           <-- | green_west has quit ("Leaving") 00:04           --> | glezos (Dimitris Glezos) [n=glezos@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 00:05             * | warren closes laptop 00:06           <-- | warren has quit ("Leaving") 00:27           <-- | davidz has quit ("Leaving") 00:36           <-- | jrb has quit (Remote closed the connection) 01:01           <-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:19           <-- | corbet [n=user@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "No reason") 02:04           --- | dwmw2_zzz is now known as dwmw2_PVG 02:15           <-- | glezos has quit ("Leaving") 03:03           <-- | mdomsch_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) 03:09           --> | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 03:11           --- | stickster is now known as stickster_afk 03:12           --> | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 03:21           --> | llunved (llunved) [n=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 04:04           <-- | rdieter has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:24           --> | draco (draco) [n=draco@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:19           <-- | smooge has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") 05:35           <-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:12           --> | fedorared (John Mahowald) [n=john@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 06:25           --> | llunved (llunved) [n=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 06:39           --- | tibbs is now known as tibbs|h 06:45           --- | You're now known as thl 07:18           <-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:22           <-- | fedorared has quit (Remote closed the connection) 07:44           --> | sm|CPU (Sankarshan) [n=sankarsh@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 09:00           <-- | Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: f13, ajax 09:00           --> | Netsplit Over - 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"If you want flash, you will not be free, bug go here." 15:21 <        f13> | Jesse: What about the other arches... 15:21 <        f13> | Greg: we hvae a "sorry, doesn't work for !i386" 15:22 <        f13> | Why can't we ship gnash? 15:22 <        f13> | answer: doesn't work for the main usage of flash. 15:23           <-- | rdieter has quit (Remote closed the connection) 15:23 <        f13> | Also, fluendo mp3 15:23 <        f13> | Fluendo terrorists are more supportable, given they are doing opensource software, just patent encombered 15:24 <        f13> | Fluendo requires a clickthrough, for i386/x86_64. no ppc yet? 15:25 <        f13> | Fluendo says we may be able to do it w/out a clickthrough. 15:25             * | thl sill votes for: let us help fedora-unity or some other external website/organistion to host that stuff and ship a repo file for it that's disabled by default; I'd prefer to not have that stuff on our servers 15:25 <        jwb> | i sorta agree with thl 15:26 <        jwb> | though i would say we don't even ship the repo file 15:26 <        f13> | Greg:  You request a mimetype, or click a button on the desktop. It sends you to a dialog that says "This is wrong. But if you really want it, Ok." -> Next screen would lead you to fluendo. 15:26 <        thl> | jwb, maybe even that, yet 15:26 <        thl> | yes 15:26             * | BobJensen notes that Fedora Unity is willing to look at setting up a repo if the legal issues can be worked out. 15:26 <        f13> | thl: we can't ship a repo that points to it 15:26 <         f13> | contributory infringement. 15:26 <        thl> | f13, k, then just help them to get that stuff running 15:26 <        thl> | and let them provide the repo file 15:27             * | BobJensen and provided it does not hurt other potential "endorcements" of Fedora Unity as a whole 15:27 <  Lovechild> | the gstreamer guys are making it easy to hook up the missing plugin message to something to be used to point people in the right direction, Christian Schaller blogged about it yesterday following the Ubuntu summit 15:27 <        f13> | Warren: Adobe will host their own rpms/yum repo in the future, firefox autoinstaller may work. 15:27 <        f13> | Flash is off the list. 15:28 <        f13> | warren:  We have the opportunity to be the last champion of free software. Ubuntu lost, Novell really lost. 15:28 <        f13> | Our hardass stance on the patent issue has made it less comfortable for users, but we get more useful contributors who care about freedom. 15:29 <  BobJensen> | At what point do we sacrifice the user base for our beliefs? 15:29 <  Lovechild> | it is not really that hard for users to enable livna to get that mp3 15:29 <        f13> | at what point do we sacrifice our beliefs for the user (NOvell) 15:30 <        jwb> | doesn't the word "our" imply that a significant portion of the user base _shares_ the beliefs? 15:30 <        f13> | Lovechild: it isn't, but we continually get beaten up because they can't figure it out from an install. 15:30 <        f13> | jwb: yes, and a significant portion of our userbase DOES. 15:30 <  BobJensen> | I guess my point is that no matter how "greater than thou" we try to be the end users still want the cruft 15:31 <        jwb> | the cruft can be had rather easily from elsewhere 15:31 <   mspevack> | greg -- this stuff won't be on our servers in any event 15:31 <  Lovechild> | f13: would it be an option to use the new gstreamer stuff to pop up a message box tell people why we can't ship this and have it install in one click? 15:31 <   mspevack> | greg -- what i'm proposing is making it easier to point to other servers and agree to their licenses 15:31 <        f13> | Lovechild: thats what Greg is proposing. 15:32 <  Lovechild> | f13: it seems like a good compromise.. I personally enjoy the stance the Fedora project takes on non-free stuff 15:33 <        f13> | greg -- Goal is to keep the distro 100% redistributable. Having a button on the desktop that points to Fluendo does NOT change the redistributable. 15:35 <        f13> | greg -- mp3 is the target we want to go for, forget the slippery slope 15:35 <        f13> | jeremy -- Wireless is a bigger problem, and a harder one to solve. 15:37 <  Lovechild> | the order users seem to care about is mp3, video codecs, drivers.. clearly we can't fix the driver thing nicely for any party, not without sending poor davej off the deep end. 15:39 <        f13> | Jeremy -- I worry about firmware that is not freely redistributable 15:40 <        f13> | warren -- I care about free for non-commercial 15:40           --> | mdomsch (Matt Domsch) [n=mdomsch@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:40 <       ajax> | one long term solution we should be looking at for wireless and, cough, other drivers is providing a path for users to find the appropriate upstream to work with 15:40 <        f13> | warren -- copyright issues are somewhat solveable. 15:41 <        f13> | bill -- do we want to go through teh pain of setting up another repo that is 'free for non-commercial' now that e're trying to merge extras and core? 15:41 <       ajax> | drivers aren't magic, they're just hard. we should be enabling people who want to make open drivers work. 15:42           --> | rdieter_away (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:42 <        jwb> | i hate the free-for-non-commercial stuff 15:42 <   mspevack> | me too 15:42 <        f13> | greg -- what prevents solving mp3 is the slippery slope which leads to discussions. 15:42 <        f13> | jwb: I do as well. Die die die. 15:43           --> | llunved (llunved) [i=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:43 <        f13> | jeremy -- mp3 leads us to things like mpeg stuff and dvd stuff, where there isn't a mp3 solution (fluendo) just yet 15:43 <  Lovechild> | god I hate software patents.. 15:44           <-- | rdieter_away has quit (Remote closed the connection) 15:44           --> | rdieter1 (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:45 <        f13> | jeremy -- the reviewers that hit us on mp3 don't just bring up mp3, so by solving just mp3, what are we actually solving? 15:45 <        f13> | warren -- are we making an assumption that supporting mp3 will help us more than hurt us? 15:45 <  Lovechild> | we aren't solving anything, we are merely moving the issue to the next time someone hits a file they can't play. 15:46 <  Lovechild> | the reviews will still read "Well.... it works in Ubuntu" 15:46 <   mspevack> | greg -- RULE NUMBER 1: always ship redistributable software 15:46 <   mspevack> | greg -- RULE NUMBER 2: where 1 is not possible, always follow the law 15:46           --> | craigt (Craig Thomas) [n=ct@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:46 <        f13> | bill -- what we've been talking about how to make fedora open, and how to make your own fedoras. Somebody in the future can do a spin of something that is Fedora + Livna + whatever. They can't call it Fedora, but... 15:47 <        f13> | jeremy -- in doing so, do we create the next Mandrake (KDE-qt issue...) 15:47 <   mmcgrath> | "How to make your own fedoras" 15:47 <  Lovechild> | .. a hattrick? 15:47 <        f13> | bill -- we don't know if this is good or bad. 15:47 <        f13> | blizzard -- but this is what we're trying to enable the community to do. 15:48 <        f13> | blizzard -- in other parts of the world, this is perfectly free, why can't we allow them to enjoy their freedom? 15:48 <        jwb> | it's free for now 15:48 <        f13> | dave -- where do the bugs go? 15:48 <        f13> | bill -- preferrably the spinoff. 15:49 <        f13> | greg -- these compromises already exist. Can we draw back the line of the argument to something that is more of a compromise that helps our users. 15:49 <        f13> | max -- the hard line is rule #1 15:49           --> | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 15:50 <        f13> | greg -- the compromise is rule #2, pointing users on how to legally get the bits that are missing. 15:50 <        f13> | blizzard -- I think thats right, we give them a way out to legally get that software. 15:50 <     smooge> | spot, by the way, every corporate email service has a recall built into it (Lotus, Exchange, Groupwise, etc) 15:51 <        f13> | greg -- This is what is frustrating about Livna, as they're doing it that isn't legal in most of the world, so Fedora cannot point to livna due to contributory infringement. 15:51             * | thl catches up 15:51 <      smooge> | oops wrong channel 15:51 <     smooge> | sorry 15:51             * | thl also hates the free-for-non-commercial stuff 15:52 <        f13> | talking about having an rpm of Thoreau's Civil Disobediance that is a requirement of any non-free software. 15:52 <  Lovechild> | at the very least we should replace the "missing support" messages with a polite educational message, spinoffs can hook up whatever they like. Right now it comes off to users as a bug which we just don't care about 15:53 <  BobJensen> | Lovechild: I agree 15:54 <  Lovechild> | If users understand the reason why, they tend to be less upset. Any solutions we can provide on top of that is icing on the cake really. 15:54 <        f13> | much agreement 15:55 <        f13> | the next obvious step is pointing in the polite message to Fluendo for a legal way to get the stuff. 15:57 <        f13> | greg -- I propose we do both. Educate, and give a way for legal ways to get legal software. 15:57 <  Lovechild> | when it comes to drivers, if I understand correctly a lot of the problems comes from semi finished but otherwise free drivers that need reviewing and merging upstream. Could Fedora be helpful here as a source for reviews? 15:57 <        f13> | greg -- we have the right to make the 'support terrorists' link as ugly and scary as possible. 15:58 <        f13> | Lovechild: it needs kernel reviewers, our kernel guys have a lot of work as it is, upstream is the better place for it. 15:58 <        jwb> | Lovechild, that's only part of the problem. take R350 ATI cards for example... there _is_ no half finished driver because ATI won't release specs 15:58             * | smooge begins an GutenBurg2RPM 15:58 <        f13> | greg -- starging this with mp3 is a good test case, extending this to more things needs to be discussed on a case by case basis. 15:58 <  Lovechild> | jwb: I say we support the terrorists.. they can blow up ATI for us 15:58             * | jwb avoids calling it an "Axis of semi-evil" 15:59 <        f13> | bill -- start with the gstreamer plugins, and use it as a test case. 15:59 <  Lovechild> | agreed 16:00 <        f13> | blizzard -- If we're going to be doing this, I want to make sure that people have to pay for the mp3 codec. 16:01 <        f13> | greg -- why? 16:01 <        f13> | blizzard -- Because there is a cost associated with it. 16:01 <        f13> | greg -- Fluendo paid that cost. 16:01 <  Lovechild> | fluendo' plugin is gratis for users 16:01 <        f13> | blizzard -- People should be made aware that there _is_ a cost for the mp3 and that cost should be passed along to the people wanting to use the technology 16:02 <        f13> | Lovechild: fluendo HAD to pay for it, chris wants people who make use of mp3 understand this. 16:02 <  Lovechild> | ah.. 16:02 <        f13> | blizzard -- I know that you can get it for free, however we want to charge users SOMETHING so that they understand that somebody HAD to pay for it. 16:03 <        jwb> | we have no control over that 16:03 <        f13> | greg -- there should be no reason to incur the administrative overhead of charging $1 for user 16:03 <        jwb> | so now we're going to have a fedora paypal account? 16:03 <        jwb> | wtf? 16:04 <        f13> | greg -- part of this deal is to get fluendo into this workflow and get their legal bits out to people. 16:04 <        f13> | blizzard -- think of what we could do with the $1, suppor causes we actually care about. 16:04 <  Lovechild> | we should definintely talk to the Fluendo people before charging for their work.. they have the infrastructure to take money for this kind of thing 16:04 <        jwb> | think of the legal hassle that incurs 16:04 <        f13> | blizzard -- I'm talking about having a token $1 amount that people have to pay as a symbol of being not free. 16:05 <        jwb> | pay to who? and what does that $1 go towards? 16:05 <        f13> | dave -- we're confusing free and freedmon 16:05 <        f13> | jack -- $.50 goes to creative commons, $.50 goes to foo. 16:05 <        f13> | greg -- if we have to take money in for this, we're done, and I dont' want to talk about it anymore. 16:06 <        f13> | greg -- people can get it for free, and they will and avoid us all together. 16:06 <        f13> | jeremy -- rabbit hole, lets step out. 16:07 <        f13> | jeremy -- can we all agree that having a hook in say gstreamer to popup an education box to explain why you can't play that. 16:07 <        f13> | general agreement. 16:07 <  Lovechild> | +1 16:07 <        f13> | and we go back down the rabbit hole of what to do from there :/ 16:09 <        f13> | we're moving on, taking this back to the board for what to do after the educate window. 16:09 <        f13> | and now we're moving on LiveCD after a short break. 16:16 <        f13> | Ok, we're coming back, LiveCD 16:16 <        f13> | greg -- the question on LiveCD is, what specifically will it take to have the official Fedora LiveCD that we advertise with teh same voice as the rest of our releases 16:17 <        f13> | bill -- either annoint what the Kadischi is doing, or we pay somebody to reimpliment the right way. 16:17 <        f13> | bill -- pilgrim is large and ugly and a hack, but at least you can get it checked out. 16:17 <        f13> | jeremy -- It's 400 lines of shell, its not extensable. Much like libtool 16:17 <        f13> | *snickers* 16:18           --> | tibbs (Jason L Tibbitts III) [n=tibbs@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:18 <        f13> | greg -- is there any live CD that unity is hosting that we could bless as official? 16:18 <        f13> | various answers of "we don't know because nobody around the table has tried it." 16:18 <        f13> | bill -- A Fedora Unity CD built from kadischi has landed on the table, we're trying it. 16:19 <  BobJensen> | greg, all our live-spins as we call them only contain bits from Fedora Core and Extras 16:19 <        f13> | jesse -- the Kadischi stuff does not make any use of the stateless work we put into Core. 16:19 <  BobJensen> | greg, they are created using kadischi 16:20 <        f13> | max -- Our goal with LiveCD is the same as our goal with teh rest of the new world. When it's time to do a release, Fedora project puts out their cut of the LiveCD, and there are tools provided for the community to build different ones. 16:21 <  Lovechild> | LiveCDs would also be very useful for testing our point releases for people who like to see new stuff in action but don't want to install a potentially baby eating system. This might also catch more malconfigured systems 16:21 <        f13> | Lovechild: indeed 16:21 <  BobJensen> | Lovechild: we did do a liveCD for FC6T2 16:22 <        f13> | greg -- I like pilgrim because a downstream project uses it, OLPC 16:22 <  Lovechild> | BobJensen: I didn't see one on that official torrent site. But I honestly didn't look to hard 16:22 <  BobJensen> | Lovechild: Not official, done by unity for the communty 16:23 <  Lovechild> | in the ideal world it would be part of the release spinning process 16:23 <        f13> | greg -- somebody technically competent cares about pligrim. Kadischi just languishes. 16:24 <@greendiseas> | personally, i agree with pilgrim integration into pungi 16:24 <        f13> | greg -- I don't know what what is the right one to use, should we do a Pepsi challenge? 16:24 <        f13> | jeremy -- hand waiving.... 16:24 <@greendiseas> | because it seems like a logical process to create a livecd when you roll you own cut of fedora 16:24 <  BobJensen> | greg, it is not for lack of trying, Jasper was doing a fair amount of work on Kadischi based on our input 16:24 <        f13> | jeremy -- Is david interested in continuing forward with Pilgrim for the Fedora use case? 16:25 <        f13> | jonathan -- He was until he got pushed back on because A) it wasn't kadischi and B) because it didn't use anaconda. 16:25 <        f13> | jeremy -- I had a long talk with David, he doesn't want to be in the business of maintaining these tools, he was very explicit. 16:25 <        f13> | this seems like two dead ends. 16:26 <        f13> | jeremy -- there needs to be some concerted resources around making the official LiveCD creation tool. 16:27 <@greendiseas> | f13: build it into pungi 16:27 <  BobJensen> | I am sure Jasper Hartline would love to get some support and feedback on how to improve Kadischi so that it can be "the tool" 16:27 <        f13> | jermey -- do we want t orewrite the way we build liveCDs every release 16:27 <        f13> | ? 16:27 <@greendiseas> | since pungi is supposed to be used as the cookie cutter for everyone in the community, we should integrate everything for them in once centralized place 16:29 <        f13> | greendisease: agreed 16:29 <        f13> | greg --pilgram is the only thing that produced a liveCD that I was able to use. Suggestion, kiss David's ass so that he's motivated to make it work for the next release. 16:30 <@greendiseas> | f13: so whats the problem with trying to integrate the same methodology which david used for pilgrim and integrating it? 16:30 <        f13> | bill -- ask the Unitiy people wha tthey think when they try to use Pilgrim. 16:30 <        f13> | greendisease: it may not work for Fedora 7 already 16:30 <@greendiseas> | i didnt say integrate the actual code 16:30 <@greendiseas> | use the same conceptual method and translate the code to work properly 16:30 <        f13> | greendisease: because pungi does nothing more than call anaconda tools. 16:31 <        f13> | greendisease: there is very little heavy lifting in pungi itself, it just calls other things. 16:31 <@greendiseas> | okay, so why not integrate it into anaconda 16:31 <        f13> | -ETIME 16:31 <@greendiseas> | anaconda is our uber-installer 16:31 <@greendiseas> | what changes is jeremy working on now for rhel anaconda? 16:32 <        f13> | the people that understand anaconda code and would be able to work with anaconda to make a liveCD generator are very very small and busy. 16:32 <        f13> | why didn't David use anaconda for the LiveCD? he didn't want to, he wanted to write his own. 16:32 <@greendiseas> | i didnt say make anaconda the livecd cutter 16:32 <@greendiseas> | i said include the functionality in there and have pungi use it 16:33 <@greendiseas> | exaqctly what bill just said 16:33 <        f13> | greendisease: indeed. The utility has to exist and be maintainable. 16:34 <  BobJensen> | What are the chances of the "mystery" behind spinning the releases becoming documented and public? 16:34 <        f13> | BobJensen: can you define that a little bit? 16:35 <  BobJensen> | f13: When it was time for Fedora Unity to start creating "Re-Spins" we cold find no official documentation on how it should work, we had to seek out those of you who do it to get answers 16:36           --> | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:36 <        f13> | the goal of th emerger so to make it dead simple for anbydoy to make a Fedora release. 16:36 <@greendiseas> | BobJensen: +1 16:36 <  BobJensen> | f13: the result was a cobbled together shell script that we are stillnot sure does it the "right way" 16:36 <        f13> | nod 16:37 <  BobJensen> | we never did get any final feedback 16:37 <@greendiseas> | BobJensen: is anyone from unity willing to commit time to working with the anaconda/pungi team then to get this working? 16:37 <@greendiseas> | its more of a resources perspective 16:37 <@greendiseas> | err, not perspective, constraint 16:38 <  BobJensen> | greendisease: we have been here, the people know who we are, we are willing to help but no one has said a thing to us "personally" 16:38 <@greendiseas> | f13: please speak what BobJensen just said 16:39           --> | jmbuser (John Babich) [n=jmbuser@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 16:39 <  BobJensen> | greendisease: some say "well it was announced, you should go to them" 16:39 <    mdomsch> | greg - whatever form it takes, it shouldn't *have* to be done by a RH employee 16:41 <        f13> | greg -- I don't care how crappy it is, I care that there is a working LiveCD in people's hand. 16:42 <        f13> | max -- you put in a cd, it does stuff, you have a desktop 16:42 <        f13> | max -- you put in a install cd, it does stuff, yo uhave a desktop 16:42           --- | You're now known as thl_afk 16:43 <        f13> | bill -- you cna say you want to do this work in a community, but communities only work after a certain point. We need somebody to get something wtarted, in teh right way, and growt he comunity aroudn THAT> 16:43 <        f13> | stupoid vpn is making my tylping bad. 16:44 <        f13> | looks like we're going to table tihs until David Z can show up and talk about it. 16:44 <   dgilmore> | f13: thats just my bad influence 16:45 <        f13> | jeremy -- pilgrim isn't that far off, we want to be sure that th epilgrim upstream is willing to make the changes we the Fedora project would like to see. 16:46 <  BobJensen> | And why not work with Kadischi? 16:46 <        f13> | the codebase is a disaster. 16:47 <  BobJensen> | And yet no one will step forward to help fix it, mentor the guys who salvaged it from the refuse heap? 16:47 <        f13> | -ENOTIME> 16:48 <        f13> | David wanted a live CD and wrote his own, and the liceCD folks pissed on iit. 16:49 <     smooge> | comments like that no matter how true, do not help any sort of wanting to work together 16:51           --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- Mail List Overload!! 16:51 <        f13> | we're going to talk about mailing lists now. 16:51 <        f13> | max -- Identify the dead lists, kill them. 16:52 <        f13> | jeremy -- having a page to list the actual useful Fedora lists and what they're used for is the way to go. 16:52 <        f13> | bill -- it's a tedious one time task. 16:52 <        f13> | max -- I'm going to do it, and I'm going to do it in the open, but I'm going to do it. 16:54           --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- FUDCON! 16:54 <        f13> | We don't know what days 16:54 <   mmcgrath> | f13: ask who has final say as to who can create a list. We get lots of requests for them. 16:54 <        f13> | greg -- we'd like to actually accomplish something, lots of computers, lots of smart people, lots of food/beer, make something happen. 16:54 <        f13> | mmcgrath: the Fedora Board? 16:54 <        f13> | mmcgrath: Max for now. 16:54 <        f13> | bill -- Do we have options for places? 16:55 <   mmcgrath> | K, I'll just send them to max. Typically I say "Send a solid project plan and details for why you need a maillist" and then I never hear from them again ;D 16:55 <        f13> | people -- Boston is a good location, as transportation issues are easy to solve. 16:55 <        f13> | mmcgrath: hehe, you can continue doing that too! 16:56 <        f13> | we're tlaking about actually paying to fly people in for a fudcon 16:56 <        f13> | and put them up. 16:57 <        f13> | bill -- Do we need the User part of FUDCON anymore? With the ambassadors project going so well? 16:57 <        f13> | jeremy -- Sat/Sun/Mon works much better for people who need to take time off work. 16:57 <        f13> | greg -- If we have to move dates/venues to accomplish what we want, this is fine. 16:58             * | mmcgrath is planning on attending this year. 16:59 <   mmcgrath> | err the next one, whatever. 16:59 <        f13> | so what is it we'd like to accomplish with this pile of brain power? 16:59 <        f13> | feb/mar/april are the sort of target months 16:59           --- | You're now known as thl 17:00 <        jwb> | is FUDCON going to be in boston again? 17:00             * | dgilmore would like to go to fudcon 17:00 <        f13> | jwb: possibly 17:00 <        jwb> | bummer 17:00 <        f13> | One goal is to have Fedora done by the Red Hat summit, which means mid-april Fedora release. 17:00 <        f13> | jwb: we're talking about acutally paying to get people out here. 17:01 <  Lovechild> | why am I suddenly tempted to book plane tickets across the atlantic 17:04           --> | corbet (unknown) [n=user@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:05           <-- | BobJensen has quit ("Leaving") 17:06           --> | glezos (Dimitris Glezos) [n=glezos@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:07 <   dgilmore> | f13: what sort of people would we fly to FUDCON? Alan Cox type people? 17:09 <        f13> | dgilmore: not sure, depends on what we want to accomplish. If we're going to do a review fest, maybe a few pretty good community reviewers 17:09 <        f13> | if it's going to be a bug fix, maybe some good engineers from the community. 17:09 <   dgilmore> | :) cool makes sense 17:10 <         f13> | listing out bad dates for RH 17:10 <         f13> | LCA - Jan 15-19 17:14 <         f13> | looking at first weekend of Feb.  Greg owns making it happen. 17:19            --> | BobJensen (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) [n=BobJense@removed]  has joined #Fedora-Summit 17:21            --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: The Red Hat Summit 17:21 <         f13> | max -- Our Fedora representation at th enext summit was poor. 17:21 <         f13> | max -- we want to have Fedora Cds for every attendee 17:21 <         f13> | max -- the Fedora talks were few, and were dictated as to what we could talk about. 17:22 <         f13> | max -- max wants to be teh final say about the Fedor topics, and we want to fly people from teh community in to talk about how they use Fedora (like BobJensen) 17:23 <         f13> | max -- the Fedora folks need to be more organized 17:23 <        jwb> | then you need a job req for a cat herder 17:23 <        f13> | jeremy -- tried to get more conversation than talking head, but it didn't work so well this year. 17:23 <@greendiseas> | i am the cat herder 17:24 <        f13> | jeremy -- for some reason there was not much feedback from the attendees during the talks 17:24 <@greendiseas> | f13: tell max i am willing to take responsibility for helping him with summit stuff 17:24 <@greendiseas> | and orgainzing our marketing plan for the summit 17:24 <@greendiseas> | i AM good at these things 17:26 <        f13> | we need to figure out what we're trying to achieve at the summit, given that your average Fedora user isn't going to pony $700 to go to the Red hat summit 17:27 <     wwoods> | find out what the users really want to see go into FC8? heh 17:27 <        f13> | wwoods: Red hat users? 17:28 <     wwoods> | strike that 17:28 <     wwoods> | reading comprehension failure: -ENOTENOUGHCOFFEE 17:28           --- | f13 has changed the topic to:  Fedora Summit: Planning releases 17:29 <        f13> | billl -- we do this poorly 17:29 <        f13> | bill -- we hav ea RH manager in the room, and he is going to go on about this. 17:29 <        f13> | flags are bad mmm-key? 17:29 <        f13> | Jonathan -- Sit ina  room and talk for a while, get input from teams 17:30 <        jwb> | flags? 17:30 <        f13> | greg -- where is the output? 17:30 <        f13> | jonathan -- nothing is written down. 17:30 <        f13> | jwb: you don't want to know. 17:30 <        f13> | greg -- throws something at jonathan. 17:30 <        f13> | jrb -- how this should work; What are our biggest concerns, and whta do we want to look at? comes from teams and manager best judgement 17:31 <        f13> | jrb -- go to the community with this for input. 17:31 <        f13> | greg -- writing on the board.... 17:31 <        f13> | greg -- Step 1: document a. long. list. of. crap. 17:32 <        f13> | greg -- jrb, pete grainer, sigs do this. 17:32 <        f13> | greg -- take the big long list, take what we can expose, and merge it with the community lists 17:32 <        f13> | jrb -- what are we trying to solve? 17:33 <     warren> | Increasing transparency! 17:33 <        f13> | greg -- increasing transpareny and allow the community to have input 17:34           <-- | craigt has quit ("Leaving") 17:35 <        f13> | jrb -- one problem is many masters. Needs for RHEL, things for Fedora, things for upstream, things for "other products"(OLPC) 17:36 <        f13> | jrb -- it easy to say "we want to put resources behind certian things" but may not be easy to say why 17:36 <   dgilmore> | could we have SIG leaders  that say these should be our games, Gnome, KDE, etc  and we then merge them together to make a big pretty picture? 17:37 <        f13> | jrb -- it is easier to engage the upstream projects rather than to engage Fedora. 17:38 <        f13> | greg -- we have two kinds of roadmaps. What goes into Fedora, based on upstream, forecasting. 17:39 <   dgilmore> | sure it is. but things like the versions/ quantity etc of games  we put in probably best to come from Games SIG 17:39 <   dgilmore> | Gnome KDE updtream release is perfect 17:40 <        f13> | greg -- second type is what goes AROUND Fedora, packaging, layout, new packages, compose lists, etc... 17:40 <        f13> | greg -- second part is where we need a concrete roadmap, as "what is important to Fedora 7 roadmap" 17:42 <        f13> | bill -- where we have a big problem now, it's nearly impossible to get anything from the community wishlist into the rh engineering managers, and drive it. 17:42           --> | craigt (Craig Thomas) [n=ct@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:42 <        f13> | jeremy -- we need to start having that conversation. 17:42 <        f13> | bill -- gather what community wants, then shop it around engineering and engineering managers 17:42 <        f13> | max -- thats my responsibility 17:42 <        f13> | jrb -- this time around is very much Fedora specific 17:43 <        jwb> | the community wants everything 17:44 <  BobJensen> | including a pony 17:44 <        jwb> | you need a pepsi challenge or something similar to even begin to narrow the most popular items down 17:44 <   mspevack> | BobJensen: DENIED, lack of budget 17:44 <  BobJensen> | lol 17:45 <        f13> | davidz just showed up. 17:45 <        f13> | Sigs are very important to our roadmaps as they will own sections of our package base. 17:45 <        f13> | Games being one of them. 17:46 <        f13> | warren -- even if the info isn't perfect, we need to get it out and viewable. 17:46             * | BobJensen ponders a ham radio SIG 17:46             * | mmcgrath would be interested in an embedded SIG (XBOX, my toaster, etc) 17:46 <     wwoods> | a HAM SIG? There's almost a PIG SIG joke in there somewhere 17:47 <        f13> | jeremy -- Fedora needs to do better outreach into parts of Red Hat engineering. 17:47 <   dgilmore> | mmcgrath: i stole your toaster 17:47 <   dgilmore> | the vxworks on it was nasty :D 17:48 <     warren> | warren -- We need to get it out there and viewable. It must be aggregated and organized in a single place. It is important for people to see a roadmap. It is especially important for *ACCURATE* media understanding and reporting. 17:48 <   dgilmore> | It is very hard as an outsider to know how to reach into RH enginering 17:48 <   mmcgrath> | Its a delicate balance between a RH sponsored project and a fully community operated project. 17:50 <     warren> | mmcgrath, that might be part of the issue, but I really don't think we are *DOING* anything wrong. What we were failing was 1) outreach to the community to do it better 2) communicating about all this. 17:50             * | smooge ponders a SPAM SIG 17:50 <     warren> | smooge, canned meat? 17:51 <        f13> | ok, got action items, snapping a shot of the whiteboard. 17:51 <   mmcgrath> | Yeah, its an interesting situation to be in. It doesn't help that people think that RH has some sort of alterior motive, honestly I thought the same thing till I got involved. 17:51 <        f13> | taking a break, returning to LiveCDs 17:51 <     smooge> | how to build Fedora SPAM checking tools 17:52           --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: LiveCD! Take 2 17:52             * | dgilmore  was very confused when RHL was canned. 17:53             * | dgilmore  now loves fedora 17:53 | Has anyone successfully built and run an FC6 livecd with pilgrim? 17:55 <  BobJensen> | abadger1999: I tried looking for information for Fedora Unity so we could try it out and could not locate it so we went with Kadischi 17:56 | BobJensen: I evaluated both and got kadischi to work but pilgrim built a livecd that wouldn't get through the boot process. I was wondering if it was a Rawhide issue or pilgrim issue. 17:56 <        f13> | abadger1999: yes, jrb did. 17:57           --> | daMaestro (Jon) [n=jon@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 17:57 | f13: Thanks. 17:59 <   mspevack> | abadger1999: and gdk 18:01 <        f13> | joining again. 18:01 <        f13> | davidz will be talking for 5 minutes, I'm not going to type it all though. 18:02           --> | autopsy (J. Hartline) [n=Jasper@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:02 <        f13> | davidz -- I did a live CD because its neat and similar to OLPC 18:02 <  BobJensen> | f13: I asked jasper Hartline from Kadischi to join us 18:02 <         f13> | davidz -- OLPC takes packages from yum, drops in a chroot, and makes images. 18:03 <    mdomsch> | I'm out for a while, enjoy1 18:03 <    mdomsch> | ! 18:03           <-- | mdomsch has quit ("Leaving") 18:03 <        f13> | davidz -- the tools to make the olpc images became Pilgrim 18:04 <        f13> | davidz -- It's mostly(all?) shell scripts. Needed to clean it up for OLPC as david came back to desktop group. Discovered that it is very close to a LiveCD 18:04 <        f13> | davidz -- saw the community needed a working LiveCD and Fedora as a project wasn't doing much on that front, so started on a feature set for a LiveCd based on Pilgrim 18:05 <        f13> | davidz -- RW filesystem, selinux, "be the same", be installable. 18:05 <        f13> | davidz -- reasons for installable: using Fedora wasn't easy, too many CDs. Having a single CD for both live and install is easy. 18:06 <        f13> | davidz -- spent a weekend writing it, showed it to blizzard, blizzard said Hey go announce it! davidz wasn't so sure, blizzard ratted him out to the Fedora advisory board. 18:06 <        f13> | now it's public knowledge 18:06 <        f13> | davidz -- my liveCD meets my requirements. 18:06 <        f13> | greg -- it worked, kadischi didn't. 18:06              * | twunder is away: Lunch 18:07 <        f13> | davidz -- most feature sets are both olpc/Fedora. 18:07 <        f13> | davidz -- I wanted to enable changing it by just adjusting a few lines. 18:08 <        f13> | davidz -- ran into some issues w/ yum/rpm but worked through them. 18:08 <        f13> | davidz -- I wrote a big README when I dumped the code on the mailing list(s) 18:10 <        f13> | davidz -- let me to think about other groups, say eclipse, would be able to easily build an eclipse live CD from this tool, not caring what the base is, just that it runs a reasonable eclipse. 18:11 <        f13> | davidz -- what worked / didn't work. Technology worked, built a live CD. Got a lot of feedback, like two different ways/methods for building and installing a distro. solve problems 2x places. 18:11 <        f13> | gdk -- what do we do to make this the official LiveCD for Fedora? 18:12 <        f13> | davidz -- Lots of confusion within the fedora project about what to do? Put it in the release notes, not.. ? 18:13 <        f13> | davidz -- its a huge investment in time to say 'you're going to make LiveCDs' 18:13 <  BobJensen> | LOL 18:13 <        f13> | davidz -- it should be just a part of our release process. If it is such, it needs to use the same tools. 18:13             * | BobJensen knows all about that investment 18:15           --> | graveyard (Ruben Kerkhof) [n=graveyar@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:15 <     glezos> | and even worse.. it makes sense a downloadable Live CD to be up-to-date.. 18:16 <  BobJensen> | glezos: and that is exactly what UNity is doing with Kadischi 18:16 <     glezos> | yup. 18:17 <  BobJensen> | glezos: just annoying to me to hear things said the way they are, as if kadischi is dead and buried. 18:17 <  BobJensen> | glezos: we have proved that it does and can work, several thousand downloads can't be wrong 18:18 <    skvidal> | BobJensen: umm 18:18 <    skvidal> | that statement is horribly incorrect 18:18 <    skvidal> | several thousand downloads can certainly be wrong 18:18 <        f13> | jesse -- Are you (davidz) willing to maintain an upstream for Pilgrim so that things like pungi can make use of it t oproduce liveCDs and other people can use pungi to make liveCDs 18:18 <    skvidal> | for evidence of this: see gentoo 18:18 <    skvidal> | :) 18:18 <     autopsy> | If the Fedora Project doesn't mind, as long as they allow it, I will take the current Kadischi codebase and give it a new home, and continue to maintain it if Fedora Core decides to drop it from thier CVS development tree. 18:18 <     skvidal> | I think unity is great, however :) 18:19 <  BobJensen> | skvidal: ;^) 18:19 <         f13> | autopsy: how useful will that be if all of the engineering effort that is paid to work on Fedora is working on pilgrim, and things like pungi use pilgrim? 18:19              * | f13 thinks Unity is great too.  and Live CDs are great.  how we get to LiveCDs is the question. 18:19 | BobJensen: I agree with the far from dead part. 18:20 <     autopsy> | I'm just saying, if Fedora Project decides to relinquish control over the current codebase of Kadischi as I read in the CLA which dictates an ownership, I will be glad to take it over. 18:21 <     autopsy> | It isn't useful to anyone but me and anyone who uses Kadischi. 18:21 <         f13> | bill -- we don't control the codebase 18:21 <         f13> | bill -- you need to sign CLA to get access to it 18:22 <         f13> | greg -- if we want to split it out and put it somewhere else (no CLA) we can do that. 18:22 <        f13> | greg -- maybe moving it external will get more involvement, but the Fedora team may take pilgrim on. 18:23 <  BobJensen> | I still think it would be good for some effort to be put toward Kadischi, making it viable before it be "turned loose" 18:24 | f13: If pungi already uses anaconda, one of the main drawback of kadischi (anaconda requirement) is moot. 18:24 <        f13> | BobJensen: the issue is we'r emuch closer to something we'er happy with in pilgrim, rather than kadischi 18:26 <        f13> | thtas not the drawback 18:26 <        f13> | abadger1999: talk to jeremy about the drawbacks regarding kadischi 18:27 | Oh I know there are other drawbacks :-) 18:27 | But anaconda has been the one that has caused me the most personal grief. 18:28 <  BobJensen> | Does anyone have a link to this pilgram code so we can take a look at it? 18:29 | Do you have git installed? 18:29 <   BobJensen> | Like I said we looked and found nothing 18:29 | I can tar it up if not. 18:29            <-- | BobJensen [n=BobJense@removed]  has left #Fedora-Summit ( "Leaving") 18:29            --> | BobJensen (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) [n=BobJense@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:29 <   BobJensen> | sorry about that 18:29 <         f13> | BobJensen: http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/david/pilgrim.git;a=blob_plain;h=aa64cfda24576f3cb81b2ab99b2aae0fb0a2b8ae;f=README.fedora 18:30 <   BobJensen> | f13: thanks 18:30 <     autopsy> | abadger1999, either way, I would like to see it too, tarball or git, is there somewhere we can retrieve pilgrim to look at it? 18:30 <    autopsy> | oop, nevermind. 18:30 | One of pilgrim's drabacks is speed. 18:31 <        f13> | http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/david/pilgrim.git being the actual git repo 18:32 <        f13> | davidz -- sit down with technical leaders and come up with a roadmap for the liveCD itself, and figure out ways to get liveCD creation integrtaed into our release process 18:33 <  BobJensen> | And please document and share the processes with the community so the community does not waste it's time reinventing the wheel 18:34 <        f13> | BobJensen: it will happen IN the community 18:34 <        f13> | on public mailing lists, or maybe at FUDCon 18:34 <        f13> | BobJensen: so.... 18:35 <        f13> | BobJensen: are you interested in producing betas and a final official Live CD for FC6 based on pligrim? If we give you some support in using pilgrim. 18:36 <        f13> | we'd like to get the liveCD by thanksgiving. 18:36 <  BobJensen> | f13: yes, the community wants and needs Live Media 18:37 <        f13> | BobJensen: can you email davidz@redhat.com to get this rolling? Davidz is(was?) on the liveCD list too, perhaps just taking over the list and discussing pilgrim there will be best. 18:37           <-- | smooge has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:38 <  BobJensen> | Fedora Unity is not opposed to using any Free tools to make what we do, we had access to Kadischi and knew Jasper so that is the way we went 18:39 <  BobJensen> | f13: I will email davidz this week 18:41           --> | smooge_ (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:41           <-- | smooge_ has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") 18:43           --> | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:44 <     warren> | Decision: everyone going on fedora-livecd-list to continue discussion 18:44 <        f13> | Ok, LiveCD beat into the ground. 18:45 <        f13> | thinking about what to talk about... 18:46           --> | |DrJef| (spacious... he's so) [n=jefrey@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 18:49           <-- | mspevack has quit ("Leaving") 18:53 <  daMaestro> | I have a question. Is the Fedora Project (proper) still interested in trying out Plone for the front page of fedoraproject.org and fedora.redhat.com? I have been giving access to a test Xen machine to get things setup and would like to know if it is just going to be a waste of my time. 18:53 <  daMaestro> | s/giving/given/ 18:55 <        f13> | daMaestro: talk to max. 18:55 <  daMaestro> | f13, ok. 18:57           --> | nman64 (Patrick W. Barnes) [n=n-man@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:02           <-- | warren has quit ("Leaving") 19:03           <-- | smooge has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") 19:04           <-- | rdieter1 has quit ("Konversation terminated!") 19:04             * | twunder is back 19:04 <     glezos> | daMaestro, the Docs project eagerly awaits the Plone infrastructure to get built. 19:05 <  daMaestro> | glezos, Plone and Zope now have no maintainer. I can't even do an install from Extras at this point. 19:06 <  daMaestro> | glezos, Also, I need to get some Pluggable Authentication Service (PAS) bits packaged up so we can tie it in with the new Accounts System. 19:06 <     glezos> | daMaestro, go for it! :) 19:07 <  daMaestro> | glezos, nman64 is working with me to get setup. I also need to know if any add-on products are expected to be used as they will also need to be packaged and added to Extras. http://plone.org/products 19:07 <      glezos> | daMaestro, if I understood correctly, yesterday a conversation was made for giving more emphasis on the Websites aspect. Probably hire someone to coordinate things etc. Take a look at the IRC log. 19:09 <      glezos> | daMaestro, I guess you are the person and the Infrastructure is the team (and probably the IRC channel, or maybe #fedora-websites) to decide for these things. :) 19:09 <  daMaestro> | glezos, The Fedora Unity Project has learned a lot about skinning plone ( BobJensen and I hacked it up for a while ) and we can now break out of the standard plone look. http://fedoraunity.org/ 19:10 <     glezos> | daMaestro, great, these are good news. Keep up the good work. I think we should probably move this discussion to #fedora-websites or the infrastructure mailing list. 19:10 <  daMaestro> | glezos, Will do. I have been very busy lately catching up on things that have been put off for a while. 19:13           --> | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:13 <     glezos> | daMaestro, OK. Many Fedora sub-projects are looking forward to seeing the Plone site coming up. Especially Docs. So keep up the good work, and talk with the other people in the groups for help and support. :) 19:13 <      quaid> | +1 19:18 <     |DrJef|> | does max read comments to his blog? 19:18 <     |DrJef|> | http://spevack.livejournal.com/4170.html?thread=2378#t2378 19:18 <     |DrJef|> | here is my semi-annual pimping of the volunteer management handbook document to fedora leadership 19:19 <     |DrJef|> | if you havent read the first 18 pages... read them 19:26            <-- | Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: f13, ajax, dgilmore 19:26            --> | Netsplit Over - Joins: f13, ajax 19:26            --> | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:27            <-- | daMaestro has quit (Nick collision from services.) 19:27            --> | daMaestro (Jon) [n=jon@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:40            <-- | Lovechild has quit ("Ex-Chat") 19:47            <-- | dgilmore has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:53           --> | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 19:56           --- | BobJensen is now known as BobJensen-Away 19:59           <-- | glezos has quit ("off") 20:13           --- | You're now known as thl_afk 20:22           <-- | graveyard has quit 20:52           --> | Questor (David Eisenstein) [n=ident@removed]  has joined #Fedora-summit 20:59           <-- | jmbuser has quit ("Leaving") 21:03             * | Questor peeks in 21:04            <-- | poelcat [i=slick@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving") 21:05           <-- | twunder [n=twunder@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Apparently, I have better things to do") 21:06           <-- | corbet [n=user@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "No reason") 21:11 <    Questor> | ping greendisease 21:16           <-- | dgilmore has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:20           --> | Questor_ (David Eisenstein) [n=ident@removed]  has joined #Fedora-summit 21:20           <-- | Questor has quit (Nick collision from services.) 21:20           --- | Questor_ is now known as Questor 21:21 <     smooge> | |DrJef|, thats too long what is the powerpoint slide that covers all 18 pages with 3 bullet points :) 21:21 <     Questor> | Hi smooge, |DrJef| 21:26 <     Questor> | d'oh 21:26              * | Questor wonders if someone could change the topic here to "Meeting over:  You may return to your regularly scheduled pandemonia." 21:27            --- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: Summit has ended.  Thanks for all the fish! 21:27            <-- | nirik [n=nkevin@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Client exiting") 21:27            <-- | tibbs|h has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:28            <-- | tibbs has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:28 <     Questor> | t'anks f13 :) 21:29 <        f13> | np 21:32            <-- | mitr [i=trmac@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving") 21:34           <-- | vpv [i=vpivaini@removed]  has left #fedora-summit 21:35           <-- | Questor [n=ident@removed]  has left #Fedora-summit ( ":)") 21:37            <-- | jcollie [n=jcollie@removed]  has left #fedora-summit 21:48 <     |DrJef|> | smooge, dont you mean odp slides? 21:48 <     |DrJef|> | smooge, ppt is forbodden 21:49 <      smooge> | no management.. it needs to have a ppt with wmv video imbedded 21:51            --> | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 21:53            <-- | skvidal [n=skvidal@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Ex-Chat") 22:07            <-- | dmalcolm [i=dmalcolm@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Ex-Chat") 22:13              * | lmacken rolls out of bed 22:13 <     lmacken> | damn, i missed day 3 :( 22:13 <   dgilmore> | lmacken: i missed it also 22:23           <-- | dgilmore [n=dennis@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Konversation terminated!") 22:47           <-- | daMaestro has quit ("Leaving") 22:59           --- | jwb is now known as jwb_gone 23:02           <-- | boudiccas [n=boudicca@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving") 23:05           --> | tibbs|h (Jason Tibbitts) [n=tibbs@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 23:09           --> | mdomsch (Matt_Domsch) [n=Matt_Dom@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 23:18           <-- | smooge has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") 23:27 <    mdomsch> | FYI, today's logs at http://domsch.com/linux/fedora/fedora-summit.log.20061115 23:27           <-- | craigt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:27           <-- | mdomschbot has quit (Remote closed the connection) 23:29           <-- | mdomsch [n=Matt_Dom@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving") 23:33           <-- | Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: mether 23:33           --> | Netsplit Over - Joins: mether 23:34           <-- | couf has quit (Remote closed the connection) 23:34           <-- | stickster_afk has quit (Remote closed the connection) 23:34           --> | stickster_afk (Paul W. Frields) [n=stickste@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 23:41           --- | stickster_afk is now known as stickster 23:43           --> | couf (Unknown) [n=bart@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 23:51           <-- | nman64 has quit ("BBL") --- Day changed Do Nov 16 2006 00:10           <-- | ahalsey has quit 00:27           --- | BobJensen-Away is now known as BobJensen 00:34           --- | tibbs|h is now known as tibbs 00:56           <-- | wjd [n=wjd@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving") 01:39           <-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:53           --> | cweyl (Chris Weyl) [n=cweyl@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 02:26 <      cweyl> | bigb1ue 02:30           <-- | |DrJef| has quit ("Leaving") 02:40 <   jwb_gone> | cweyl, huh? 02:44 <      cweyl> | jwb_gone: erm, scratch that. 02:44 <   jwb_gone> | ;) 02:44 <       cweyl> | ok, password changed :) 02:45             * | cweyl blushes 02:45 <  BobJensen> | lol 03:27           --> | llunved (llunved) [n=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 03:32           <-- | autopsy has quit ("Leaving") 05:00           <-- | llunved has quit (Remote closed the connection) 05:24           --- | tibbs is now known as tibbs|h 05:31           <-- | BobJensen has quit (Nick collision from services.) 05:33           --> | EvilBob (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) [n=BobJense@removed]  has joined #Fedora-Summit 05:33           <-- | EvilBob [n=BobJense@removed]  has left #Fedora-Summit ( "Leaving") 05:39           <-- | sm|CPU has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:40           <-- | Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: draco, ajax, couf, cweyl, wwoods, jbowes, mether, f13 05:40           --> | sm|CPU (Sankarshan) [n=sankarsh@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:44           --> | mether (Rahul Sundaram) [n=ask@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:44           --> | cweyl [n=cweyl@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:44           --> | couf [n=bart@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:44           --> | f13 [i=jkeating@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:44           --> | ajax [i=ajackson@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:44           --> | wwoods [i=wwoods@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:44           --> | jbowes [i=jbowes@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 05:44           --> | cweyl is Chris Weyl 05:44           --> | couf is Unknown 05:49           --> | draco (draco) [n=draco@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 06:38           --- | You're now known as thl 08:59           <-- | abadger1999 has quit ("Leaving.") 09:20           --- | Users 30 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 29 normal] 09:30           <-- | jnettlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:56           <-- | c4chris_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:57           --> | c4chris_ (Christian Iseli) [n=chris@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit 13:54           --- | jwb_gone is now known as jwb 13:54 <        jwb> | so why are we all in here still?