Meeting:IRC Support Channel log 20080710

= 2008 July 10 IRC Support Meeting =

Problem Scope
IRC support needs to be improved. There is a shortage of good helpers, and operators to maintain order in the #fedora channel. The channel has many "non helpfull" helpers in it. Support is sometimes inconsistent or not present. We should be able to organize support efforts, attract more helpers and assist more users.

Action Items

 * 1) Setup the IRC pages on the Wiki following Tom Callaways Hierarchy.     Assigned: Scott Glaser (DONE)
 * 2) Have Red Hat lawyers look into the legalities of referring to livna.     Assigned: Tom Callaway
 * 3) Modify/Define the code of conduct for Participants/Helpers/Ops.     Assigned: All Operators
 * 4) Define the requirements for a #fedora Bot.     Assigned:

Misc

 * The next IRC Support Team meeting will take place in #fedora-meeting beginning 15:30 UTC on 17 July 2008.
 * Decide if we should form a support SIG.
 * Figure out how to get more helpers/schedule shifts.

Long term ideas
(This could be shared with other support types).
 * A 'support wizard' type app. Users could be directed to it to gather information and also point them to solutions for common problems.
 * Guidelines and orginization around all support types (mailing lists, talk, forums).
 * A channel bot for various needs.

Log
Jul 10 12:17:59 -->	kc8hfi (n=kc8hfi@75.108.110.238) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:18:00 -->	sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:18:30 <--	sdziallas_ has quit (Client Quit) Jul 10 12:18:42 	spoleeba, PING Jul 10 12:18:50 	here..sort of Jul 10 12:18:52 	np spot Jul 10 12:19:31 -->	sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:19:59 <--	sdziallas_ has quit (Client Quit) Jul 10 12:20:49 	ok, I'm back... who all is around for the IRC support meeting? Jul 10 12:21:03 *	Sonar_Guy is here Jul 10 12:21:04 -->	engwnbie|scooter (n=engwnbie@bas1-oshawa95-1177730161.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:21:24 -->	sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:21:29 	maybe i'm here Jul 10 12:21:43 <--	sdziallas_ has quit (Client Quit) Jul 10 12:21:53 *	kc8hfi is here, watching, learning Jul 10 12:22:04 *	roguedaemon is absent Jul 10 12:22:06 *	Southern_Gentlem here Jul 10 12:22:10 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Init process Jul 10 12:22:14 	spot will brb Jul 10 12:22:18 -->	vwbusguy- (n=scott@c-68-51-66-81.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #Fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:22:43 	yeah, lets wait for spot. Jul 10 12:22:46 *	zcat is in the nosebleed seats Jul 10 12:22:49 *	nirik goes to get another cup of coffee Jul 10 12:23:12 *	vwbusguy- sips on a coke Jul 10 12:23:24 -->	sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:23:25 *	Southern_Gentlem inserts MD IV Jul 10 12:23:31 <--	k0k has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 12:23:35 *	spot is back Jul 10 12:24:07 ---	sdziallas_ is now known as sdziallas_away Jul 10 12:24:57 	ok, so a number of topics I wanted to try and work on today... Jul 10 12:25:03 <--	finnzi (n=finnur@big.finnzi.com) has left #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:25:08 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Code of conduct Jul 10 12:25:10 <--	drago01 has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 12:25:16 	so where are we on the code of conduct? Jul 10 12:25:38 	we have this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/DRAFT-IRCSupportConduct Jul 10 12:25:39 	post link for new people please Jul 10 12:25:48 -->	daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:25:53 	I would like to split it out into seperate things for users/helpers/ops... Jul 10 12:26:03 	and we need to polish it up a bunch Jul 10 12:26:17 	nirik: here is the initial page I started https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/Help_from_IRC Jul 10 12:26:42 	excellent. Jul 10 12:26:48 	so, i have the Red Hat lawyers looking into nirik's query about referring to livna Jul 10 12:27:18 	how long is an operator shift? Jul 10 12:27:20 	i've been thinking about the OT thing, i think OT is something that binds a good irc channel and its members together in a positive way, but needs to be stated and enforced that its inappropriate when there is a question on the floor Jul 10 12:27:42 	spot: we aren't sure yet, as we aren't sure how many ops we have that are active. Jul 10 12:27:47 	okay. Jul 10 12:27:56 	I sent a memo to all the current ops a week or two ago. Jul 10 12:28:07 	the separate social channel thing doesnt really work too well in that respect Jul 10 12:28:31 	I heard from sopwith that he's not involved anymore, but would be willing to do on-off helps (ie, take a shift when someone needed it, etc) Jul 10 12:28:32 	i think a #fedora-ops channel is useful (btw) Jul 10 12:28:40 	i know i'm all over the place, sorry. :) Jul 10 12:28:42 	spot: +1 Jul 10 12:28:48 	+1 Jul 10 12:28:56 	aye, but should it be private? Jul 10 12:29:02 	yes, ops only Jul 10 12:29:13 	#fedora-ops has been need for along time Jul 10 12:29:17 	like so banned people cant park in there Jul 10 12:29:19 	roguedaemon: yeah, but if people are off topic newcomers might be less willing to ask questions. Jul 10 12:29:34 	nirik: yeah, its a delicate balance i think Jul 10 12:29:40 <--	sdziallas has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 12:29:40 	one thing we could also do (if we wanted) is to give chanops special cloaks Jul 10 12:29:51 	#fedora-social is definitely necessary Jul 10 12:29:59 	fedora/op/$USERNAME, for example Jul 10 12:30:03 	nope Jul 10 12:30:08 	disagree  spot Jul 10 12:30:23 	I would say leave fedora-ops open for now, and if it becomes a problem kick/close/do something else. Jul 10 12:30:31 	we want to be as open as we can... Jul 10 12:30:35 	roguedaemon, +1 Jul 10 12:30:35 *	spot is okay with that Jul 10 12:30:41 -->	drago01 (n=linux@chello062178124130.3.13.univie.teleweb.at) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:30:53 	nirik: +1 Jul 10 12:30:57 	=1 Jul 10 12:31:00 	+ Jul 10 12:31:23 	maybe we should try to focus this on specific topics Jul 10 12:31:27 	so, anyone have specific things about the code of conduct? Jul 10 12:31:33 	(i have lots of input from the code of conduct) Jul 10 12:31:38 	as far as channel ops reporting i think #fedora-ops is enough Jul 10 12:31:56 	or should we all edit/use mailing lists and talk about the CoC next meeting? Jul 10 12:32:18 *	spot notes that che owns #fedora-ops Jul 10 12:32:19 	lets hear what spot has to say Jul 10 12:32:37 <Sonar_Guy>	Southern_Gentlem: +1 Jul 10 12:33:06 	i think the code of conduct is a very good start, but it needs to be separated from the greater irc discussions Jul 10 12:33:17 	it should be something simple that any user should be able to quickly read Jul 10 12:33:21 *	nirik nods. Jul 10 12:33:29 	well, especially the user part of it. Jul 10 12:33:46 	ops would have more powers, so should have more responsibilities... Jul 10 12:33:50 	If you think of it hierarchically, it should look like this: Jul 10 12:33:51 	IRC/ Jul 10 12:33:57 	IRC/Participant Jul 10 12:33:59 <Sonar_Guy>	spot: I would also like to see it added to the docs and part of the initial page that comes up the first time a user opens firefox Jul 10 12:34:01 	IRC/Helper Jul 10 12:34:04 	IRC/OPs Jul 10 12:34:18 	Sonar_Guy: sure, should be possible Jul 10 12:34:52 	yeah, a hierarchy is good. Jul 10 12:34:57 <Sonar_Guy>	spot: I can make those changes to the page. Jul 10 12:34:58 	The code of conduct for users should cover Jul 10 12:35:10 	1. Things I should not do. Jul 10 12:35:15 	2. Things I must not do. Jul 10 12:35:28 	and a brief statement of the purpose of #fedora Jul 10 12:35:29 	i thought the +v thing was dropped Jul 10 12:36:01 	The code of conduct for helpers should cover Jul 10 12:36:05 	1. How to help people Jul 10 12:36:08 	the +v thing was a ok idea, but I agree no reason to set people apart... so                        we can drop it for now. Jul 10 12:36:19 	well, it isn't to set people apart Jul 10 12:36:29 <vwbusguy->	how would one distinguish between users and helpers then? Jul 10 12:36:38 	it is to make it obvious that their answers are coming from a helper Jul 10 12:36:46 <Southern_Gentlem>	vwbusguy-, like they already do Jul 10 12:36:47 	ricky pointed out that it might well make non "official" people less likely to assist... Jul 10 12:37:17 	i doubt it. Jul 10 12:37:23 	it does make things a bit more complicated, but personally i can appreciate a clear chain of command Jul 10 12:37:36 	i think it would be interesting to do helper shifts with a bot Jul 10 12:37:54 	if the helper arrives during their shift, the bot gives them +v Jul 10 12:37:59 <Sonar_Guy>	? Jul 10 12:38:01 	at the end of their shift, the bot takes -v Jul 10 12:38:07 	other ircd's have more user modes. half-ops, etc. not necessary. Jul 10 12:38:10 <Sonar_Guy>	ah ok Jul 10 12:38:21 	spot: What do you gain with the +v? Jul 10 12:38:25 	we have talked about a bot... but we need to make sure it can't be abused by                        users first Jul 10 12:38:38 	ricky: we want to give the people who volunteer to take a shift some recognition Jul 10 12:38:39 	It's just credibility that other people somehow don't get Jul 10 12:39:04 <vwbusguy->	ricky, +1 Jul 10 12:39:14 	anyone can offer an answer in channel, these people are stepping up to say that they will field all questions during a period Jul 10 12:39:17 	ricky: sometimes when lots of people are answering its hard for newcomers to know who and who not to listen to Jul 10 12:39:20 	People who regularly help are already extremely noticeable - you can listen for a few minutes and pretty much know who they are Jul 10 12:39:30 ---	knurd is now known as knurd_afk Jul 10 12:39:35 	ricky: lots of people don't listen for any period of time Jul 10 12:39:35 <--	notting (n=notting@redhat/notting) has left #fedora-meeting ("Ex-Chat") Jul 10 12:39:40 	they just drop in when they have a question Jul 10 12:39:57 	many folks won't know to look for +v either... Jul 10 12:39:59 	roguedaemon: From what I've seen in there, the quality of advice is excellent. We don't have a huge problem with people giving bad advice. Jul 10 12:40:03 	spot: So this is to set them apart for those people Jul 10 12:40:08 	nirik: they will if we put it in the user code of conduct Jul 10 12:40:19 	some % of them, sure... Jul 10 12:40:23 <vwbusguy->	the channel usually is good at calling out when bad advice is given Jul 10 12:40:29 	One-off people are pretty unlikely to read it :-( Jul 10 12:40:39 <Southern_Gentlem>	ricky once in awhile, we get bad people in there and they are                                        taken care of Jul 10 12:40:49 	we don't have to do it, but my experience is that it is a pointless gesture that                         makes people feel good. Jul 10 12:40:55 	it is complicated, probably more trouble than its worth Jul 10 12:40:58 	and it doesn't really give them anything Jul 10 12:41:17 	I think it has other effects Jul 10 12:41:23 	the same reason people pad their nicknames to go the top of the userlist Jul 10 12:41:35 	heheh Jul 10 12:41:57 	Hah, never knew about the userlist thing. Jul 10 12:42:10 *	nirik has no great strong feelings on +v... we could try it and see if it                         helps/hinders... Jul 10 12:42:11 <--	spoleeba has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 12:42:19 	then theres the borderline activity, people who think they should be but arent, etc etc Jul 10 12:42:24 	i'd like to give it a try, if it becomes trouble we can drop it Jul 10 12:42:48 	spot: would we need the bot for it? or just scheduled helpers? Jul 10 12:42:49 	At the very least, many other channels use +v to set peoples' status (to people coming) apart - that's the impression we'll give. Jul 10 12:43:15 	i don't know if freenode's chanserv has the capability to let people +v themselves with a low access level Jul 10 12:43:16 	I do'nt think the trouble with this approach is easily identifiable. Jul 10 12:43:27 	Not without getting inside the mind of people asking questions, at least :-) Jul 10 12:43:33 	It does (+v) Jul 10 12:43:57 	so, we could give the helpers that access level, then let them +v/-v when they go on                       and off shift Jul 10 12:44:01 	Like I said, a questioner will just be more likely to listen to a +v person and ignore                        other people.  That's not something we need Jul 10 12:44:01 	i get +v automatically on join in #security-forums Jul 10 12:44:04 <Southern_Gentlem>	ricky and alot of channels you cannot talk without the +v so i think                                         it will be confusing Jul 10 12:44:11 	Oh yeah. Jul 10 12:44:54 	well, let me put it this way Jul 10 12:45:05 	how will we recognize those who volunteer for a helper shift? Jul 10 12:45:24 	by irc nick on a schedule? Jul 10 12:45:27 <Southern_Gentlem>	they can always /me i am here to help Jul 10 12:45:28 	It is very clear who the regulars are Jul 10 12:45:51 	not identify, "recognize" Jul 10 12:45:59 	"reward" might be an appropriate word as well Jul 10 12:46:00 	join message? Jul 10 12:46:12 <Southern_Gentlem>	spot i am sorry i really dont think we need to identify the helpers Jul 10 12:46:13 *	nirik isnt sure how hard that is to change. Jul 10 12:46:15 	+v isn't much of a reward either Jul 10 12:46:25 	ricky: sure, but it is visible Jul 10 12:46:33 <Sonar_Guy>	ricky: true but most of the regulars idle in the channel so how is a new user to know if they are there to help or just idling? Jul 10 12:46:35 	i think i have to vote against it overall Jul 10 12:46:38 	"how did he +v? well, he's currently volunteering to help." Jul 10 12:46:46 	"welcome to #fedora. Code of Conduct: http://foo, your current helpers are nirk and spot" Jul 10 12:46:48 	Actually, it kind of is, in a twisted, unnecessary way. Jul 10 12:46:55 	As in, with +v, people will pay more attention to me vs. other people :-) Jul 10 12:47:08 	nirik: the bot would be needed there, but we could do it. Jul 10 12:47:35 	ricky: or bother you more Jul 10 12:47:39 	that won't help people who stay there thru shift changes tho...but perhaps people                         could announce when they come on/leave Jul 10 12:47:45 	 /msg etc Jul 10 12:47:57 	Then again, I see one possible advantage to +v, which is that it gives people a                         feeling of some sort of responsibility to give #fedora a good image Jul 10 12:48:13 <--	engwnbie|scooter has quit ("Leaving") Jul 10 12:48:18 	I still don't think it's necessary, though - formalizing the IRC guidelines does this too Jul 10 12:48:20 	these people are volunteering to help. I think it is ok for them to get hierarchy as a                         result. Jul 10 12:48:24 <vwbusguy->	ricky, the people that really are here to help do that anyway Jul 10 12:48:26 	ricky: contrasted with the bad feelings lots will get for not getting +v Jul 10 12:48:40 	i doubt many people will get bad feelings over not having -v Jul 10 12:48:40 	i think its too complicated Jul 10 12:48:44 	Yeah. Jul 10 12:49:02 	People that spend a ton of time helping can be missed, and that's not good either Jul 10 12:49:03 	i think it would be trivial to automate with a bot Jul 10 12:49:08 	spot: i can think of quite a few people that think they help, that really dont Jul 10 12:49:24 	karma + time Jul 10 12:49:35 	then it becomes a 'game' Jul 10 12:49:36 	roguedaemon: brings up a good question, what qualifies someone to take a helper shift? Jul 10 12:49:37 	++karma :-) Jul 10 12:49:44 	so they would have to be appointed after a request and some evaluation period or                                something Jul 10 12:49:53 	then have them +v automatically on join Jul 10 12:50:08 	why would anyone go through that pain to do something they can do anyway? Jul 10 12:50:22 <Sonar_Guy>	zcat: thats not a bad idea either. Jul 10 12:50:27 <Southern_Gentlem>	spot so why should we go through that pain Jul 10 12:50:38 	I think we seed the pool of helpers voted on by the ops... then the helpers choose                         new helpers to join them. Jul 10 12:50:44 	Sonar_Guy, "I only need 6 more days and 37 more karma to level up to voice!" :) Jul 10 12:50:46 	well, my argument would be that +v recognition of those folks would be one way. Jul 10 12:50:49 	karma might be nice (bot could help there too) Jul 10 12:50:49 	The idea of requesting/applying for a "reward" is fnuny. Jul 10 12:50:50 	**funny Jul 10 12:51:00 <vwbusguy->	I'm afraid of this turning into a popularity contest Jul 10 12:51:19 	Karma is a nice, out-of-the-way method to do this. Jul 10 12:51:26 	vwbusguy-: if it keeps good help flowing, i'm not worried. Jul 10 12:51:27 	And gives pretty solid metrics Jul 10 12:51:33 	can we table this again? time is ticking Jul 10 12:51:37 	as long as we dont say anything like 100 karma == ops. Jul 10 12:51:37 	freenode says not to keep +o in channels because "a "+o" attracts participants who                        are interested in gaining them and using them actively; it also attracts the attention                         of participants who react negatively to authority. " Jul 10 12:51:47 	spot: Hah, definitely not :-) Jul 10 12:51:52 	doesn't that same sort of thing apply (to a lesser extent to +v)? Jul 10 12:52:01 	+1 Jul 10 12:52:06 	nirik: it might, if +v meant anything. Jul 10 12:52:14 	yeah, I think we need more discussion/thoughts on this... shall we move on for now? Jul 10 12:52:19 	i can count on one hand the number of times we've had to moderate #fedora in recent                        memory Jul 10 12:52:50 	lets talk about what to do with good regulars that beat on people Jul 10 12:52:57 <Southern_Gentlem>	spot is that the times you have been called in Jul 10 12:52:57 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Helpers and Shifts Jul 10 12:53:22 	roguedaemon, opsec already left. over nothing. Jul 10 12:53:26 	Southern_Gentlem: i don't mean to imply that i know about all the possible times. :) Jul 10 12:53:28 	so, moving on... does anyone know of a free/opensource way we could have people sign up for shifts? Jul 10 12:53:47 <vwbusguy->	nirik, people sign themselves in Jul 10 12:53:51 	well, first we need to define the pool of people Jul 10 12:53:53 	vwbusguy-: to what? Jul 10 12:53:59 	we can use a wiki page to sign up for shifts. Jul 10 12:54:00 	indeed... Jul 10 12:54:01 	Side note: Make the wording of the guidelines emphasize the "You are representing                        Fedora" part Jul 10 12:54:06 	(not ideal, but it will work) Jul 10 12:54:09 	zcat: foolish pride is a powerful thing Jul 10 12:54:17 	Wiki pages are pretty perfect IMO Jul 10 12:54:21 	the wiki is pretty poor for this, but I guess it could be a start Jul 10 12:54:42 	How? It'll be a tiny bit more complex than the vacation page Jul 10 12:55:07 	well, it basically needs to be a calendar, right? Jul 10 12:55:08 <vwbusguy->	mailing list? Jul 10 12:55:15 <Southern_Gentlem>	or even this channel page Jul 10 12:55:16 	Mailing lists are hard to look up Jul 10 12:55:25 *	nirik thinks google calendar would work fine, but it's not open source. Jul 10 12:55:29 	An ical thingy works. Jul 10 12:55:35 	(I've only used sunbird) Jul 10 12:55:40 -->	xaeth (n=user@32.158.174.255) has joined #Fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:55:46 	ical might be possible Jul 10 12:55:52 	Who does that huge Fedora ical file? Jul 10 12:55:59 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik a page simulair to the fedora-meetings page Jul 10 12:56:19 	ical gives me headaches, but i could do it Jul 10 12:56:25 	you will have people signing up sometimes for on-off shifts, sometimes every day the same times, sometimes the same for a few weeks, then changing, sometimes having vacation or other plans, etc Jul 10 12:56:54 	so, I think it gets complex for wiki pages... Jul 10 12:57:02 <Southern_Gentlem>	but of course the wikii requires one to be signed up on fas Jul 10 12:57:12 	If that's the case, it gets complex for almost everything :-/ Jul 10 12:57:14 	correct Jul 10 12:57:30 	ideally, you'd want something that let you login, see the open times Jul 10 12:57:34 	pick one that worked for you Jul 10 12:57:42 	click it, confirm Jul 10 12:57:55 *	nirik nods Jul 10 12:57:55 -->	ldimaggi_ (n=ldimaggi@c-76-19-171-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:58:16 	I'm surprised there isn't a open source scheduling app like that... Jul 10 12:58:16 	But people that still have unstable schedules will have pain Jul 10 12:58:16 	someone else could load the same page and see who had taken shifts Jul 10 12:58:41 	sure, you can only make it easier for them... Jul 10 12:58:50 	Actually, hmm. Jul 10 12:58:58 <vwbusguy->	well, I know it's possible to set something like that up with Outlook or Lotus Notes, what about Evolution? Jul 10 12:59:09 *	Sonar_Guy steps out to take a phone call Jul 10 12:59:18 <Southern_Gentlem>	ricky you should be able to whip up a php page to do this in 5 minutes Jul 10 12:59:31 	vwbusguy-: requires the windows server part I think for scheduling... Jul 10 12:59:37 	Heh, /me doesn't know PHP :-) Jul 10 12:59:52 	http://www.volsched.com/ Jul 10 12:59:57 	anyhow, how do we populate helpers? Jul 10 12:59:59 *	Southern_Gentlem gotta move Jul 10 13:00:05 	I guess that ties into if we should form a SIG or not. Jul 10 13:00:08 	followed from http://www.xvx.ca/shiftscheduler/ Jul 10 13:00:21 	nirik: which is waiting on RH Legal, atm Jul 10 13:00:21 <vwbusguy->	add a note to /topic Jul 10 13:00:28 	right Jul 10 13:01:41 -->	spoleeba (n=one@fedora/Jef) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:01:41 	ok, we are pushing the end of our shortened time... other topics people would like to                        bring up? Jul 10 13:02:06 <vwbusguy->	one that was asked and not really addresses was what to do when regular good                                 helpers are out of line Jul 10 13:02:08 	spot: might work. Those don't seem to do times tho, just events Jul 10 13:02:08 	grrr stupid vpn..sorry Jul 10 13:02:17 <vwbusguy->	*addressed Jul 10 13:02:18 	There was a mini-discussion a bit back about abusive regulars Jul 10 13:02:27 	vwbusguy-: that should be covered under the code of conduct for helpers... Jul 10 13:02:33 <--	hanthana_ has quit ("Leaving") Jul 10 13:02:57 	I'm not so interested in "What do we do with them" as much as "How can we get them                        to be nice" Jul 10 13:02:58 	abusive regulars should be encouraged to go somewhere else, or stop being abusive. Jul 10 13:03:01 	ive been put in uncomfortable situations more than once over the past couple weeks Jul 10 13:03:09 <Southern_Gentlem>	my question at this point is who are the good helpers who are not already ops Jul 10 13:03:52 <--	drago01 has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 13:04:18 	roguedaemon: Feel free to ping other ops in #fedora-ops and have them chime in? Jul 10 13:04:31 	Southern_Gentlem: there are some, but possibly not regulars. Jul 10 13:04:49 	I think we need to pull in other fedora folks who don't usually help to do shifts... Jul 10 13:04:50 <Southern_Gentlem>	zcat, vwbusguy- EvilBob (when he is not hurting) f_newton are the ones that pop into my mind Jul 10 13:05:26 *	Sonar_Guy is back Jul 10 13:05:27 <vwbusguy->	I'm willing for whenever I'm available. Jul 10 13:05:54 *	nirik looks at the top # of line users in http://www.scrye.com/~kevin/fedora/fedora.html Jul 10 13:05:58 <Sonar_Guy>	I try to help whenever in the channel Jul 10 13:06:08 *	nirik helps when he has time to Jul 10 13:06:08 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: that is a good place to start Jul 10 13:06:11 	nirik: for me its more about avoiding hard feelings, we need to make it clear that some of those habits are being washed out Jul 10 13:06:33 -->	thomasj (n=thomasj@fedora/thomasj) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:06:47 	roguedaemon: indeed, just let them know it's not personal... we are just trying to                        help our users more and provide a nicer channel for them. Jul 10 13:06:53 -->	inode0 (n=inode0@fedora/inode0) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:06:59 <Southern_Gentlem>	Sonar_Guy, all the ops that stay in #fedora help Jul 10 13:07:38 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: most of the top 20 help on a regular basis Jul 10 13:07:44 	right. Jul 10 13:07:45 -->	mcleanj (n=mcleanj@nat/redhat/x-a37d9cfac5f9891d) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:07:57 <Sonar_Guy>	well the top 25. Jul 10 13:08:24 	ok, so we investigate scheduling apps, all work on code of conduct for next time, wait to hear back on SIG/Legal. Jul 10 13:08:29 <--	xaeth (n=user@32.158.174.255) has left #Fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:08:32 	one final issue: meeting time Jul 10 13:08:34 <Southern_Gentlem>	and out of those how many are not ops Jul 10 13:08:44 	Do you think that abusive regulars are ignored sometimes? Jul 10 13:08:45 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Meeting time Jul 10 13:08:57 	As in, the regulars aren't calling them on their mean-ness? Jul 10 13:09:00 <Southern_Gentlem>	same time next week Jul 10 13:09:11 	does this time work for everyone? we get bumped by fesco...and one person on                        the mailing list asked for a eariler time. Jul 10 13:09:14 	ricky: and its contagious Jul 10 13:09:20 	ricky: i think that's really mean of you to say. ;) Jul 10 13:09:27 	(seriously, though, you're right) Jul 10 13:09:30 	ricky: I think it's much better in the last few weeks... it has been very                        bad at times in the past. Jul 10 13:09:35 	Yeah, it is contagious :-/ Jul 10 13:09:42 -->	drago01 (n=linux@chello062178124130.3.13.univie.teleweb.at) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:09:48 	Yeah, I remember those times Jul 10 13:09:49 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: how about a time slot before the fesco meeting? Jul 10 13:09:59 <Southern_Gentlem>	it can escalate at a drop of a pin Jul 10 13:10:14 	Sonar_Guy: can we finish ok in an hour block, so as not to block fesco? :) Jul 10 13:10:15 	thats the main problem i noticed when i came back in the fall, but it                                does seem to be getting better Jul 10 13:10:19 <vwbusguy->	and the first month after a release Jul 10 13:10:22 	I think the regulars have a lot of peer pressure behind them :-) Jul 10 13:10:25 	So use it :-) Jul 10 13:10:34 	(Mention in the guidelines?) Jul 10 13:10:35 <Sonar_Guy>	perfect example is user 24 Jul 10 13:10:37 	damaestro and edgan aren't on that list Jul 10 13:11:19 	ah, there he is. but damaestro's busy. Jul 10 13:11:20 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: I was thinking 1500, to ensure that we dont interfere with fesco Jul 10 13:11:25 	Sonar_Guy, is there a link to that list? Sorry i`m late. Jul 10 13:11:36 <Sonar_Guy>	thomasj: which list? Jul 10 13:11:45 <Sonar_Guy>	http://www.scrye.com/~kevin/fedora/fedora.html Jul 10 13:11:45 	user 24 and who is not on it Jul 10 13:11:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	http://www.scrye.com/~kevin/fedora/fedora.html Jul 10 13:11:51 	thx Jul 10 13:11:55 	Sonar_Guy: thats a bit early for me, but we could try it. Jul 10 13:12:03 	and about the 'abusive regulars'. there's only two i can think of. one's                       gone, and one's quieter lately Jul 10 13:12:05 <vwbusguy->	Khaytsus for example regularly gives good advice, but he shows up often as most aggressive Jul 10 13:12:08 <Sonar_Guy>	Ok, if its early Jul 10 13:12:10 	anyone else want to chime in on meeting times? Jul 10 13:12:27 <Southern_Gentlem>	zcat ones gone and the other have quieted down Jul 10 13:12:37 	Sometimes it's not just abusive.. also sarcastic and demeaning Jul 10 13:12:47 *	nirik nods at ricky Jul 10 13:12:49 <Southern_Gentlem>	1530 Jul 10 13:12:56 <Sonar_Guy>	ricky: which is why currently cruiseovride is banned. Jul 10 13:13:01 	even when users are being difficult, we should always try and be nice and pleasent... Jul 10 13:13:22 	Southern_Gentlem: 15:30 would work for me. Jul 10 13:13:33 	pointing someone to the ask a smarter question faq isn't abuse Jul 10 13:13:43 	no, thats fine... Jul 10 13:13:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	zcat no not abusive at all Jul 10 13:13:48 <Sonar_Guy>	Southern_Gentlem: +1 Jul 10 13:13:53 <--	ldimagg__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 13:13:57 	is that UTC? Jul 10 13:14:01 <Sonar_Guy>	roguedaemon: yes Jul 10 13:14:02 <Southern_Gentlem>	yes Jul 10 13:14:09 <vwbusguy->	zcat, in fact sometimes essential Jul 10 13:15:07 	spot: 15:30 UTC work ok for you next week? Jul 10 13:15:14 	How much discussion has there been about a factoid bot? Jul 10 13:15:15 	sure. Jul 10 13:15:17 	(Sorry to keep pushing this meeting) Jul 10 13:15:21 <Southern_Gentlem>	point to smart question or even rute is not abusive but pointing to a jpg that say "google use it MF" is Jul 10 13:15:33 *	daMaestro looks in Jul 10 13:15:37 <Sonar_Guy>	zcat: what about this vice the smart questions page https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/Help_from_IRC#Asking_Questions_Properly Jul 10 13:15:41 <vwbusguy->	lol Jul 10 13:15:41 	yes its all about context Jul 10 13:15:56 *	Southern_Gentlem points all to http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html or                        http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Jul 10 13:16:05 ---	sdziallas_away is now known as sdziallas Jul 10 13:16:12 	ricky: I think we need to define everything we want a bot to do/not do, and then start working on those requirements. Jul 10 13:16:14 <Southern_Gentlem>	that one alot of people consider abusive Jul 10 13:16:14 <vwbusguy->	Southern_Gentlem, rtfm, I forgot, is that over the line? Jul 10 13:16:19 	Yeah. Jul 10 13:16:36 	One of them is to make regulars not have to repeatedly give stock answers Jul 10 13:16:37 <Southern_Gentlem>	but man blah isnt Jul 10 13:16:46 	Sonar_Guy: that is fine, but should be seperate from the code of conduct. Jul 10 13:16:50 	Maybe we can even get some of Southern_Gentlem's xchat macros in there :-) Jul 10 13:16:55 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: agreed. Jul 10 13:17:14 	ricky: sure, but we need to make sure it just msg's the person, and isn't                        open to being abused by people in the channel to spew things. Jul 10 13:17:19 *	Southern_Gentlem points ricky to                         http://fedorasolved.org/Members/Southern_Gentleman/xchat-shortcuts/ Jul 10 13:17:30 <Sonar_Guy>	we can setup the pages similar to the hierarchy that spot                                 identified earlier Jul 10 13:17:48 	Sonar_Guy: yeah, can you work on that, since you have the wiki-fu down? Jul 10 13:17:50 -->	ldimagg__ (n=ldimaggi@nat/redhat/x-511b2c88fb42e0fe) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:18:00 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: no problem. Jul 10 13:18:11 	anything else before we wrap up? Jul 10 13:18:14 <Sonar_Guy>	so much easier than working in plone hehe Jul 10 13:18:22 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Free discussion Jul 10 13:18:38 <daMaestro>	how do we apply for op? Jul 10 13:18:51 	you send check or money order to Jul 10 13:18:54 	Tom Callaway Jul 10 13:18:55 	i was still wondering about a hostmask Jul 10 13:18:56 	Heheh Jul 10 13:19:14 	roguedaemon: There's a queue on the wiki (I think spot clears                        it every month or so) Jul 10 13:19:19 	if/when a bot shows up i'll disable my trigger xchat script. i know the '#1 command not found' FAQ can get annoying. Jul 10 13:19:19 	k Jul 10 13:19:21 	for cloaks? yeah. Jul 10 13:19:24 	(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreenodeCloaks) Jul 10 13:19:41 	zcat: It's %#&$% handy, though :-) Jul 10 13:19:43 	zcat: yeah, but it's sure handy too. Jul 10 13:19:51 <daMaestro>	well, i have informally asked a few times; we should really                                have a formal way to ask Jul 10 13:20:07 <daMaestro>	and i've only needed to use it a few times Jul 10 13:20:13 <Southern_Gentlem>	daMaestro,  well if things go well that will be formalized Jul 10 13:20:29 	Any suggestions for how a process should look?  :-) Jul 10 13:20:29 <--	mclasen has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 13:20:30 <daMaestro>	ok. Jul 10 13:20:41 <Sonar_Guy>	I think if we get this organized could we not add it to the fas? Jul 10 13:20:56 	That could work Jul 10 13:21:04 	FAS group + bot that queries and syncs Jul 10 13:21:06 <Sonar_Guy>	just like people that sign up for docs and other such groups sign up for ops Jul 10 13:21:14 <daMaestro>	also, if there is going to be anyone working on an "official" bot; i'll contribute my coding skills to a supybot Jul 10 13:21:20 	Actually, a python library to interface with Freenode's services would be useful in general Jul 10 13:21:30 <vwbusguy->	like !FAQ Jul 10 13:21:34 	supybot is in Fedora now :-) Jul 10 13:21:46 <daMaestro>	well.. no in channel triggers Jul 10 13:21:47 	ianweller_afk: might also be interested (he's working on zodbot) Jul 10 13:21:54 	if we do that, the process is then either: admin decides, or current ops vote Jul 10 13:22:05 <--	ldimaggi_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 13:22:15 <Sonar_Guy>	daMaestro: would it be hard to get it to only respond in /msg format? Jul 10 13:22:22 <daMaestro>	Sonar_Guy, no Jul 10 13:22:27 <Sonar_Guy>	ok Jul 10 13:22:30 	But do people sign up, do admins choose candidates, or wht? Jul 10 13:22:32 <vwbusguy->	FWIW I've seen script answers in #Ubuntu that have at times been                                helpful (and otherwise abused) Jul 10 13:22:34 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik,  i have no problem with adding daMaestro as a op Jul 10 13:22:48 <daMaestro>	however, we would need to have a channel.. something like #fedora-botmasters Jul 10 13:23:11 <Sonar_Guy>	ricky: make it a group decision based on volunteers that sign up, just like fedora-admin group Jul 10 13:23:16 	There's a #fedora-supybot now that ianweller_afk and I have been using to test zodbot code Jul 10 13:23:27 <daMaestro>	we will need a non-#fedora channel to master the bot Jul 10 13:23:31 	Sonar_Guy: Cool, then we need a "signup" process Jul 10 13:23:36 <daMaestro>	lots of times a bot can be abused.. or really just get annoying Jul 10 13:23:42 	bot abuse can be throttled though. per user per time period and per trigger globally Jul 10 13:23:43 	daMaestro: #fedora-ops? Jul 10 13:23:54 <Sonar_Guy>	right can it be added to the FAS process Jul 10 13:23:56 <daMaestro>	i was thinking that the bot asks #fedora-botmasters to respond to triggers in #fedora Jul 10 13:24:21 <daMaestro>	aka.. it "senses" the phrase "nvidia" and asks in #fedora-botmasters "should i answer user123's question about nvidia?" Jul 10 13:24:23 	We can always identify and block (from the bot) bot abusers. Jul 10 13:24:38 <daMaestro>	all it takes is for something with +v in #fedora-botmasters to say yes Jul 10 13:24:48 <daMaestro>	and then the response is posted to #fedora Jul 10 13:24:55 	I think that might be too muhc Jul 10 13:24:56 	**much Jul 10 13:25:04 	The bot becomes non-useful if no botmasters are around Jul 10 13:25:21 	yeah, i don't think thats a good idea Jul 10 13:25:25 	I think it would simpler for it to only respond to /msg or if a helper/ops msg'ed it to send something to someone. Jul 10 13:25:31 <daMaestro>	if there are no botmasters around... the bot can be abused and the quality of service is greatly reduced Jul 10 13:25:37 	Ideally, the bot could be configured to not take commands from abusers Jul 10 13:26:10 <daMaestro>	there is a good value in allowing the bot to auto-detect FAQ items in                                #fedora, and respond in #fedora; but only moderated Jul 10 13:26:12 	daMaestro: If there are no ops around, somebody can spam the channel to uselessness - doesn't mean that messages should be moderated Jul 10 13:26:25 	it might be nice for the bot to log everything it does somewhere, and then ops/helpers could see it being abused and block the user. Jul 10 13:26:29 <--	themayor has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 13:26:35 <daMaestro>	if we use /msg .. we still need a channel where the bot will report what /msg conversations it's having Jul 10 13:26:45 <daMaestro>	we will end up with users conversing with the bot in /msg Jul 10 13:26:52 	true. Jul 10 13:27:20 	or just never have it answer people who aren't on it's list... then helpers can have it msg people only. Jul 10 13:27:26 	yes. people message me a little too often, thinking i'm a bot. :) Jul 10 13:27:42 <daMaestro>	i'm all for a bot; i've wanted one since day-0 but was put off by a                                few people here and there and never dedicated time on the matter Jul 10 13:27:44 *	nirik thinks there are lots of issues around a bot, so we need to come up                         with a good setup before implementing it. Jul 10 13:27:54 	zcat: Hehe Jul 10 13:27:54 <daMaestro>	specifically that it would be banned from #fedora :-/ Jul 10 13:28:03 <daMaestro>	nirik +1 Jul 10 13:28:09 	i think a bot should still be able to spew directly to the channel in many                         cases. helps more people. and clues in that someone was helped. Jul 10 13:28:10 <daMaestro>	and thus, i never worked on mine Jul 10 13:28:18 	the trigger doesn't have to be public though, just the bot response. Jul 10 13:28:18 <daMaestro>	not outside of making it search searchfedora.org Jul 10 13:28:28 	Can we agree that a karmabot (no factoids yet) would be a good start? Jul 10 13:28:28 <daMaestro>	correct Jul 10 13:28:29 	e.g. "!foo @ someuser" would be a /msg trigger Jul 10 13:28:39 <daMaestro>	but the bot can "sense" what a FAQ response would be Jul 10 13:28:49 	ricky: what would it do? Jul 10 13:28:49 <daMaestro>	and recommend triggers to be played to answer the question Jul 10 13:29:07 <Sonar_Guy>	ricky: +1 Jul 10 13:29:11 <daMaestro>	the #fedora-[insertwhateverchannelnamehere] would basically just be a bot spam channel ;-) Jul 10 13:29:23 	nirik: Track karma (nirik++) and improve what spot said about                        recognizing/rewarding good helpers Jul 10 13:29:29 	s/improve/do Jul 10 13:30:05 	ricky: I don't think that would be usefull unless we know what                         increases/decreases karma and what we intend to do with it. Jul 10 13:30:23 	nirik++ increases, nirik-- decreases Jul 10 13:30:40 	It's just an informal, fun way to express thanks or agreement with somebody Jul 10 13:30:48 	ricky +1, ricky++, "ricky, thanks!" ... Jul 10 13:31:05 	Never anything serious to get annoyed about - kind of like a game, lamost Jul 10 13:31:14 <vwbusguy->	ricky, then why do it? Jul 10 13:31:17 	but won't people feel bad? Jul 10 13:31:21 	:-( Jul 10 13:31:27 	we don't want people to feel bad because they have +v Jul 10 13:31:27 	cap it. like slashdot. :) Jul 10 13:31:29 	i mean, karma. Jul 10 13:31:31 	It's more out of the way than +v >:-( Jul 10 13:32:06 	It's not always in your face, and it's controlled by everybody Jul 10 13:32:32 	couldn't we instead tie it into some higher level "karma" system for Fedora ? (: Jul 10 13:32:39 	f13: +1 Jul 10 13:32:51 	rather than controlled/stored by the bot Jul 10 13:32:54 	I think karma-ish stuff should be handled separately by each subgroup Jul 10 13:32:58 <--	petreu_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 13:33:00 	(although it could keep track of how much IRC karma you have) Jul 10 13:33:04 	Actually, hmm. Jul 10 13:33:14 	where it == fedora karma server Jul 10 13:33:32 	That sounds like a cool idea Jul 10 13:33:37 	I don't think it would be too useful at this point... also, I think we need to                        be carefull adding a bot to make sure it doesn't do anything that can be abused. Jul 10 13:33:38 	karmageddon Jul 10 13:33:47 	Hehe Jul 10 13:34:05 	ok, we are way over time here... see everyone next week at 15:30 UTC. Jul 10 13:34:36 	Thanks, everybody (is somebody going to send the log somewhere?) Jul 10 13:34:54 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule Jul 10 13:35:09 	ricky: I can... I need to figure out how best to stick them up on the wiki. Jul 10 13:35:26 	I've always done mailing list post + wiki link to the email