SIGs/Desktop/Meeting-20070912

Present

 * ChristopherAillon
 * MatthiasClasen
 * JesseKeating
 * JeremyKatz
 * JonNettleton
 * MatejCepl
 * ColinWalters

Log
Sep 12 14:01:46 	again, I didn't send out an agenda Sep 12 14:02:08 	one thing we can discuss today is Sep 12 14:02:19 	mclasen: you failed to set the topic? Sep 12 14:02:27 *	f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Desktop SIG meeting Sep 12 14:02:31 	thanks Sep 12 14:02:36 	I'm stupid sometimes... Sep 12 14:02:42 	I don't think I have special powers or anything, just /topic Sep 12 14:02:52 	so, we freed up 40M on the live cd by splitting evo Sep 12 14:03:06 	which gives us room to maybe include some other goodies Sep 12 14:03:35 	too bad about help :/ Sep 12 14:03:46 	oh well (: Sep 12 14:03:57 	we followed the precedent set by gimp Sep 12 14:04:09 	nod Sep 12 14:04:25 	it would be nice if we could tell the user after installation to hd that there are some packages they might want to add Sep 12 14:05:09 	maybe this is a situation where suggests: would come handy... Sep 12 14:06:00 	so, what are the apps that we really want to see on the livecd, but couldn't ? Sep 12 14:06:45 	do we want to have bigboard on it, e.g ? Sep 12 14:06:55 	inkscape is one that has come up in the past Sep 12 14:07:12 *	clarkbw (n=clarkbw@static-71-243-117-136.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Sep 12 14:07:18 *	mbacovsk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Sep 12 14:07:33 	that still doesn't fit :-( Sep 12 14:07:39 	potentially scanning stuff, planner, tomboy/f-spot Sep 12 14:07:53 	(by looking at the list of things that have been removed in the past) Sep 12 14:08:12 	tomboy/f-spot will be large due to pulling in mono Sep 12 14:08:28 	mclasen: i'm planning a different (much smaller) livecd image for online desktop Sep 12 14:08:44 	walters: ah, ok Sep 12 14:08:48 	it's already 500 megs and going down Sep 12 14:09:07 	mclasen: yeah, I know it pulls in mono. but I seem to remember the end result was ~ 10-20 megs. I'll do a test and see Sep 12 14:09:21 	if it fits, tomboy would certainly be cool to have Sep 12 14:09:42 	indeed Sep 12 14:09:54 	halfline needs to crank out that rewrite in python (: Sep 12 14:09:59 	just kicked off, will know in 15-20 minutes probably Sep 12 14:11:15 	probably not ready yet, but I think conduit could really be a showcase service to include. Sep 12 14:11:33 	hadess keeps saying that Sep 12 14:11:46 	do we even have conduit packages ? Sep 12 14:11:51 	yep Sep 12 14:12:01 	I think they are a little old Sep 12 14:12:24 	that could be fixed Sep 12 14:12:34 	seems to weigh less than 1M, with deps Sep 12 14:13:18 	some of the big apps that are currently integrated are tomboy and f-spot Sep 12 14:13:47 	so F7 has Conduit 3.1-2 and 0.3.3 is out Sep 12 14:14:10 	gah Sep 12 14:14:18 *	mclasen feels lost in the conduit window Sep 12 14:14:20 	no help Sep 12 14:15:44 	I think hadess had some ideas for conduit, but he's not here... Sep 12 14:16:10 	maybe it is worth starting a thread on the mailing list then Sep 12 14:16:31 	yeah Sep 12 14:17:19 	ok, if nobody has any more application proposals, we should perhaps move on Sep 12 14:17:50 	one thing I wanted to quickly mention here is that I want to drop the openoffice launchers from the default panel configuration Sep 12 14:18:15 	I think that is a good idea Sep 12 14:18:33 	not an issue for the livecd, anyway Sep 12 14:19:13 	yeah, that would be awesome. Sep 12 14:19:16 	do it! Sep 12 14:19:16 	sounds good Sep 12 14:20:49 	what else do we have to discuss ? Sep 12 14:22:08 	for the Desktop spin we are going to be using NetworkManager by default correct? Sep 12 14:22:26 	yes Sep 12 14:22:37 	halfline could save himself rewriting f-prot in Python if he fixes jbrout (which is in Python already and waiting to be packaged for Fedora) Sep 12 14:22:42 	I think we already did on the F7 livecd, no ? Sep 12 14:22:46 	I think all our Live images that are gnome based are using NetworkManager by default. Sep 12 14:22:47 	I would love to move a bunch of "network" dependent services out of the init process and start them through NetworkManagerDispatcher Sep 12 14:22:52 	jnettlet: that's also the goal for fedora proper. Sep 12 14:23:00 	jnettlet: and is still on the table Sep 12 14:23:04 	i think Sep 12 14:23:09 	yes Sep 12 14:23:09 	mcepl: your chance to own a package ! Sep 12 14:23:18 	we're eagerly awaiting new NM that works. Sep 12 14:23:30 	jnettlet: yeah, I was meaning to bring up network services anyway Sep 12 14:23:37 	mclasen: unless it is stable enough to work for me, I won't put it into Fedora ;-) Sep 12 14:23:43 	f13: yeah i forgot to ping dcbw about it when i saw him before Sep 12 14:24:04 *	mclasen looks around Sep 12 14:24:04 	if I don't talk to him before, I'll harass him on the bus later Sep 12 14:24:06 	caillon: I talked to him on the bus this morning. Sep 12 14:24:15 	caillon: he's making progress, but nothing to test yet. Sep 12 14:24:36 	jnettlet: how does that look in practise ? Sep 12 14:24:57 	we still ship initscripts, just off by default, and add scripts for the dispatcher ? Sep 12 14:25:26 	basically I just chkconfig off iscsi ntpd autofs sshd avahi-daemon avahi-dnsconfd Sep 12 14:26:11 	then I have scripts for /etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d that use the lock files and service to bring the up down restart on network changes Sep 12 14:26:27 	does that cause conflicts if the user later turns the service on ? Sep 12 14:26:34 	or are the scripts smart about that ? Sep 12 14:26:57 	nope because it uses the service call and checks /var/run and/or /var/lock/subsys to see if the process is already running Sep 12 14:27:30 	so if it is already running and the interface call is eth0 up, it will just restart the service Sep 12 14:27:47 	we should really just do this via dbus. Sep 12 14:27:50 	that sounds good, although it feels as if the init system should know about this, ideally, e.g system-config-services Sep 12 14:28:10 	I think it needs a tab like we have for xinetd Sep 12 14:28:31 *	jeremy wonders if you want to have the concept that the initscript is a network service and then chkconfig does the right thing based on "traditional" vs NetworkManager network setup Sep 12 14:29:03 	we should see about inviting dcbw for one of these things Sep 12 14:29:11 	jeremy: I have already written some stuff on my machine based around that idea Sep 12 14:29:12 	perhaps Sep 12 14:29:29 	but bigger discussion than desktop-spin specific probably Sep 12 14:29:55 	somewhat related to the whole new-init discussion Sep 12 14:29:59 	yeah Sep 12 14:30:12 	yes Sep 12 14:30:34 	but a bit more focused and concrete Sep 12 14:31:30 	ok, whats next then? Sep 12 14:31:43 	for my desktop, and early-gdm I basically start auditd restorecond syslog messagebus haldaemon NetworkManger Consolekit then gdm-login Sep 12 14:31:53 	everything else starts after gdm or through NetworkManager Sep 12 14:32:11 	related to network services, I wondered if we want to include/enable nss-mdns Sep 12 14:32:15 	or do we already ? Sep 12 14:32:41 	doesn't look like it Sep 12 14:32:55 	unless it's required by something Sep 12 14:33:04 	nope Sep 12 14:33:58 	doesn't avahi-dnsconfd do the same thing? Sep 12 14:34:39 	dunno, I'll poke lennart about it Sep 12 14:35:47 	ok, what else ? Sep 12 14:35:50 	speaking of lennart, does it make sense that pulse audio volume control lands in Applications -> sound/video but there is also a volume control on System -> Preferences -> Personal ? Sep 12 14:36:03 	not much Sep 12 14:36:13 	volume control is a mess that needs cleaning up Sep 12 14:36:18 	yeah Sep 12 14:36:19 	I agree Sep 12 14:36:21 	but probably more on the F9 timescale Sep 12 14:36:29 	the audio stack is all kinds of "fun" again. Sep 12 14:36:34 	do we install ekiga on the livecd? Sep 12 14:37:03 	Could I have one more gripe with the current NM (at least according to what's in F-7)? Its management of VPN sucks -- it shouldn't say that the network is on unless also VPN is on, and VPN should be autostarted after getting basic network connection (configurable behavior probably). Otherwise empathy (telepahy multi-protocol IM client) crashes badly everytime when trying to connect to RH IRC through VPN, because NM tells it that network connecti Sep 12 14:37:33 	mcepl: yeah, that's a known gripe Sep 12 14:37:56 	do we include the VPN plugins on the desktop spin? Sep 12 14:38:16 	jnettlet: yeah, they're marked as default in comps Sep 12 14:38:27 	(... so that they get included for the desktop spin) Sep 12 14:38:29 	we need to update the openvpn nm plugin then Sep 12 14:38:44 	the gui in the one we still ship is old Sep 12 14:38:50 	mcepl: I hope that we'll have a working nm snapshot in rawhide soon, then all those gripes need to be reevaluated... Sep 12 14:39:18 	yeah, we should push the NM stuff to when we get the 0.7 branch in for gripes Sep 12 14:39:19 	I also need to finish the gui changes for pptp and vpnc plugins Sep 12 14:40:12 	one thing I wanted to bring up here, since I believe it hasn't been discussed last week Sep 12 14:40:15 	we're going to want to do a snapshot release as soon as the new nm bits land to get a lot of testing on it. I expect a lot of breakage that we need to fix up. Sep 12 14:40:28 	right Sep 12 14:40:41 	I was going to email the list about that a couple of days ago Sep 12 14:40:47 	is the idea to do some parallel installs of ubunu/opensuse/test2 Sep 12 14:40:47 	I definitely agree Sep 12 14:40:55 	and write up comparisons Sep 12 14:40:58 	mclasen: well, that's another problem which probably doesn't have good solution -- it would be really nice to have rawhide which would be stable to used by people who mind that their computer doesn't boot up every other day. Sep 12 14:41:12 	mclasen: but that's certainly out of topic here Sep 12 14:41:21 	mcepl: stable rawhide is an oxymoron Sep 12 14:41:38 	mclasen: well, there is stable Debian/unstable :-) Sep 12 14:41:42 	mcepl: try telling that to the kernel folks -- i can't boot with the rawhide kernel. don't worry about NM not working :-) Sep 12 14:42:03 	but I have been using rawhide for 3 years, and never really had unsurmountable problems to get work done... Sep 12 14:42:11 	mcepl: but if it doesn,t we need to know about it to fix it Sep 12 14:42:26 	It would be nice if we had a spin directory that we could cherry pick packages out of rawhide for Sep 12 14:42:34 	brb Sep 12 14:42:48 	jnettlet: that's what we're going to do for the snapshots Sep 12 14:42:58 	f13: sounds good Sep 12 14:43:07 	jnettlet: in koji we can create a new tag quickly/easily that is just a snapshot of rawhide, then we can add things in as needed to get a snapshot made Sep 12 14:43:09 	f13: is there some plan to do weekly snapshot spins from now on ? Sep 12 14:43:28 	mclasen: weekly if possible, maybe every other week. Sep 12 14:43:49 	doing so eats into other development time though, I'm trying to use some time between test2 and f9 to get some other things ready for f9 Sep 12 14:44:00 	I'm going to try to at least do a subset weekly; won't do the full set of live images Sep 12 14:44:02 	there are just too many of them Sep 12 14:44:06 *	jrb (i=jrb@nat/redhat/x-f2f40a3e32025cc7) has joined #fedora-meeting Sep 12 14:44:19 	yeah, seriously Sep 12 14:44:30 	f13: we have the tools out there now, so everybody can just do his own... Sep 12 14:44:35 	but x86 desktop is the one that will probably almost always be done. and then some switching around of x86_64, developer, FEL, kde and all the permutations Sep 12 14:44:44 	I've started to do that occasionally Sep 12 14:45:11 	fwiw, adding tomboy and f-spot to rawhide of today takes us to 686 MB. so we can do so if we want Sep 12 14:45:13 	mclasen: this is true, we just have to make the snapshot repos publically available, and that isn't always easy. Fscking multilib gets in the way. Sep 12 14:45:25 	(and if we do, we should change f-spot to be default in comps) Sep 12 14:45:41 	jeremy: +1 Sep 12 14:45:42 	please! Sep 12 14:45:52 	and really, we should just add it to the default session Sep 12 14:45:59 	can we have 40 or so messages about rpmfusion? please? Sep 12 14:46:05 	whoops wrong channel Sep 12 14:46:06 	sorry Sep 12 14:46:07 	and we should set gnome to use f-spot import on removable media Sep 12 14:46:10 	discovering things like this to add to session isn't exactly easy. Sep 12 14:46:50 	jnettlet: I haven't looked at the fspot import dialog in a long time; when we last looked at it (for Fc6, I think) it needed some love Sep 12 14:46:55 	has it improved ? Sep 12 14:47:14 	f13: you mean adding tomboy to the default panel config ? Sep 12 14:47:35 	I can't remember to comment. I have a bunch of people using it and it never comes up Sep 12 14:47:43 	I will look Sep 12 14:48:24 	thanks Sep 12 14:48:58 	mclasen: yeah Sep 12 14:49:03 *	smooge (n=smooge@canopus.unm.edu) has joined #fedora-meeting Sep 12 14:49:21 	I don't think it has changed Sep 12 14:49:30 	were the complaints in bugzilla? Sep 12 14:50:34 	f13: makes sense to me Sep 12 14:50:48 	jnettlet: so I just got reminded of the issues we say Sep 12 14:51:10 	halfline says that the dialog was very generic, and required you to pick the camera from a list, or something Sep 12 14:51:27 	ideally, it should just get a hal-udi and do the right thing without further questions Sep 12 14:52:48 	probably something to look at again Sep 12 14:54:32 	ok, any other things ? Sep 12 14:54:38 	it looks like running f-spot-import %h should do all of the hal magic Sep 12 14:54:45 	thats nice Sep 12 14:55:01 	oh! Sep 12 14:55:09 	this is probably more global than Desktop, but.. Sep 12 14:55:21 	we should enable SHMconfig in X and include the gsynaptics package Sep 12 14:55:32 *	mclasen has no idea what shmconfig is Sep 12 14:55:34 	definitely Sep 12 14:55:34 	being able to adjust the touchpad features out of the box would be rather nice. Sep 12 14:55:55 	but that needs to be rolled into Xorg right? Sep 12 14:55:57 	mclasen: I'm not entirely sure what it is either, but without it enabled I can't adjust synaptic settings for my touchpad. Sep 12 14:56:11 	jnettlet: i don't think they will because it's GPL, no? Sep 12 14:56:28 	f13: it's a little insecure to enable SHMConfig by default Sep 12 14:56:51 	it's just an input driver and we include and set it up reasonably well by default Sep 12 14:57:11 	we don't do SHMConfig because it gives any user pretty complete control of the touchpad Sep 12 14:57:18 *	knurd wakes up Sep 12 14:57:41 	f13, FYI gsynaptics seems quite silent (read: dead?) upstream Sep 12 14:57:42 	f13: probably a good idea to poke krh when he's back Sep 12 14:57:46 	jeremy: hrm, that's a bummer. Sep 12 14:58:08 	This is really something that will be handled by xorg dbus in the future Sep 12 14:58:14 	knurd: sounds like a good opportunity to take it and run with it and get some Ubuntu style publicity for making it better. Sep 12 14:58:41 	jnettlet: yeah, although the synaptics driver will need some changes to do so Sep 12 14:59:14 	f13: and better than a separate gsynaptics, it'd be better to just have it in the standard mouse preferences. but hey, that's crazy talk :-) Sep 12 14:59:32 	indeed Sep 12 14:59:36 	f13, give me some time to learn C and I'd actually would be interested... ;-) Sep 12 14:59:56 	doesn't have to be C Sep 12 14:59:58 	jeremy: sounds very reasonable to me.... Sep 12 15:00:01 	that randomly reminds me. Is there any reason we still restart the X server on every logout? Sep 12 15:00:16 	why would you log out? Sep 12 15:00:22 	I know it used to be a big problem, but that seems a bit outdated Sep 12 15:00:25 	why would you run X? :P Sep 12 15:00:27 *	lennert hides Sep 12 15:00:56 *	rdieter has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Sep 12 15:01:11 	on this occasion, I declare the meeting closed... Sep 12 15:01:17 	jnettlet: i think it's because we do that for starting gdm. i think a few guys were working on fixing that Sep 12 15:01:31 	to only have 1 X session ever Sep 12 15:01:34 	see you guys next week Sep 12 15:01:39 	but we are reliant on airlied's modesetting stuff Sep 12 15:01:39 	later