Extras/SteeringCommittee/Meeting-20060615

Summary
Present from FESCo: warren, scop, thl (late)


 * Short meeting only -- thl had other things to manage and joined late
 * some discussions at 0:07 on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/HowToGetSponsored
 * tibbs> | The idea was that people needing sponsorship are not understanding the process; Many think that sponsorship comes automatically.
 * tibbs> | I'll try to find the info from the logs and cook up an Extras/SponsorResponsibilities page. The HowToGetSponsored page could then link there.
 * tibbs> | So, I'll go ahead and cook up a page of sponsor responsibilities and we can discuss it next week.
 * voting / voting system https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/
 * thl> | abadger1999, shall we post this url and a point to the code in cvs so people can review it before we do the actual election?
 * abadger1999 did that in between
 * some guys tested it and some minor problems were found (and fixed)
 * How long would the voting last? It was areed on one and a half week; open on June 22 close on July 2
 * no revotes are allowed/possible -- If people complain we might implement it in the next election

Full Log
0:00           --- | BobJensen is now known as BobJensen-Away 0:02 <      tibbs> | Hmmm. Anyone around for the meeting? 0:02 <     warren> | nope 0:03           --> | tibbs-cellphone (Jason Tibbitts)  has joined #fedora-extras 0:03             * | bpepple is fairly busy. 0:03 <   dgilmore> | lah lah lah 0:04 | I'm here. 0:04           --> | _wart_ (MichaelThomas)  has joined #fedora-extras 0:04 <   dgilmore> | thl: here? 0:04           <-- | wart-cellphone has quit 0:04 <   dgilmore> | any fesco people here? 0:05 <     warren> | hi 0:06              * | scop here, more or less 0:07 <      tibbs> | What was on the schedule for this week? 0:07 <       scop> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule 0:07 <       scop> | hm, dunno if that's up to date 0:07 <   dgilmore> | election status? 0:07 <      tibbs> | I was going to ask folks to have a look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/HowToGetSponsored 0:08 | I have an update on the voting system. 0:08 <   dgilmore> | abadger1999: how is it going? 0:08 <      tibbs> | Voting system is important; should we wait until more folks are around? 0:08 <   dgilmore> | possibly 0:09 | How about you go first, tibbs. Maybe more will show up? 0:09 <      tibbs> | OK. 0:09 <   dgilmore> | tibbs: that looks good 0:09 <      tibbs> | The idea was that people needing sponsorship are not understanding the process 0:09 <      tibbs> | Many think that sponsorship comes automatically. 0:10 <    bpepple> | tibbs: That's what I've noticed. 0:10 <   dgilmore> | tibbs: I have seen that. It deffinetly needs to be made clearer 0:10 <      tibbs> | There's one note in there that I think folks should look over: I don't want to encourage folks to just leave things for their sponsor to clean up. 0:11 <   dgilmore> | some people dont seem to review packaging guidelines at all when they first submit. if i was a sponser i wouldnt sponser them. the mindi and mondo-rescue comes to mind 0:11 <       scop> | the listing of sponsor duties seems a bit out of place in that page 0:11 <    nirik99> | tibbs: not sure that should even be there... thats a sponsor duty, and the page is about how to get sponsored, not how to be a sponsor? 0:12 <      tibbs> | scop: Agreed. But submitters do need to know what a sponsor is supposed to be doing. 0:12 <       scop> | sure, but maybe set up another page for that 0:12 <   dgilmore> | tibbs: maybe reword  is that  it reads in order to get sponsored  you need to display a clear understanding of the packaging guidelines,  etc 0:12 <      tibbs> | Perhaps just a general statement that a sponsor is there to assist you in getting your first packages through the system? 0:13 <      tibbs> | That's what I've always done. 0:13 <       scop> | +1 0:13 | tibbs: I like that bullet point but not in the context it's given. 0:14 | what should be emphasised is the sponsor does not want to have to clean up after you. 0:14 <      tibbs> | We probably a need another page for sponsor responsibilities, but honestly don't sponsors already know them? 0:14 <     _wart_> | tibbs:  It would be useful for new sponsors 0:14 <   dgilmore> | they should know them 0:14 | tibbs: We were having lots of questions about sponsor's responsibilities about two months ago. 0:15 <      tibbs> | abadger1999: I'll have to read back through the logs. 0:15 <       jima> | it's probably worth writing up at some point. 0:15 <      tibbs> | I'll go ahead and excise that chunk from the page and reword things. 0:15 <       jima> | just so that there's official policy on it. 0:16 <      tibbs> | I'll try to find the info from the logs and cook up an Extras/SponsorResponsibilities page. The HowToGetSponsored page could then link there. 0:16             * | jima nods. 0:17 <       scop> | I wouldn't worry about the "sponsor cleans up after you" part 0:17 <      tibbs> | OK. 0:17 <       scop> | speaking for myself, I wouldn't do that too many times 0:17 <       scop> | unsponsoring is possible too ;) 0:17 <       tibbs> | I have no idea how to do that. 0:18 <      warren> | maybe admins are the only one with access to downgrade and upgrade? 0:18 <       tibbs> | Does a cvsextra need to do it, or can the sponsor "unsponsor"? 0:18 <        jima> | yeah, i would expect myself to unbecome a fedora contributor if i left my sponsor holding the bag too many times. 0:18 <    dgilmore> | tibbs: i would say that an admin be notified to have account access revoked 0:19 <        scop> | I see unsponsoring as something that needs to be presented to FESCO with appropriate reasoning 0:19 <       tibbs> | That sounds reasonable. 0:19 <      warren> | It is NOT the job of sponsors to fix all problems and do all the educating.  The new contributor should read the documentation and get at least 80% of the way there on their own, and the sponsor can help to clean up. 0:20 <     warren> | In some cases I see sponsors doing 80% of the cleanup, and it isn't clear whether the new contributor truly understands the guidelines or not. 0:20 <   dgilmore> | warren: very true 0:20 <       jima> | warren: and that's scary. 0:21             * | thl on the keyboard now 0:21 <     warren> | Is the ccrma guy doing a better job of reading and following guidelines after his first package? 0:21 | warren: true. The cleanup rule should make the sponsor more wary of accepting a new packager rather than making the new packager rely on the sponsor. 0:22 <      tibbs> | So, I'll go ahead and cook up a page of sponsor responsibilities and we can discuss it next week. 0:23 <   dgilmore> | tibbs: go for it 0:23 <       tibbs> | thl, did you want to run through the schedule? 0:23             * | thl just read what was discussed up to now 0:23 <        thl> | well, who's around from FESCo? 0:24 <        thl> | I think we can skip the schedule for today 0:24 <        thl> | and just do a short meeting 0:24 <        thl> | I'm maily interested in two things: 0:24 <        thl> | - the status of the voting system 0:24 <        thl> | - the status of the "CTRL-C at the right point of time preverts commit mails" 0:25 <        thl> | abadger1999, what's that status of the voting system? 0:25 | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/ 0:25 | This should work. 0:25 <   dgilmore> | pretty 0:25 | I'm going to clear the data before we go live so feel free to try it now. 0:25 <        thl> | BTW guys, sorry for being late; I announced that on the private FESCo-list 0:26 <        thl> | abadger1999, many thx for your work 0:26 <       jima> | thl: such rudeness will not be tolerated ;) 0:26 <    dgilmore> | abadger1999: whats our username/passowrd? 0:26 <        jima> | thl: (welcome btw :) 0:26 | No problem.  spot did the initial work. 0:26 <         thl> | abadger1999, shall we post this url and a point to the code in cvs so people can review it before we do the actual election? 0:26 | dgilmore: Fedora accounts username and pass. 0:26 <         thl> | jima, well, I did the full meeting on my birthday some weeks ago 0:26 <    dgilmore> | abadger1999: ahhh  now to remeber password 0:27 | thl: That would be fine. 0:27 <         thl> | but today I had to prepare some things for the birthday of my girlfriend... 0:27 <        jima> | abadger1999: where's the data on the candidates coming from? 0:27              * | jima seems to recall jpo having an irc nick ;) 0:27 | http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/viewcvs/fedora-vote/?root=fedora 0:27 <        thl> | abadger1999, do you want to post that mail? 0:27 | jima: the data is coming from the accounts database. 0:27 <       jima> | also warrn 0:27 <       jima> | warren, even 0:27 <       jima> | ahhh 0:27 <        thl> | abadger1999, or maybe: could you do that please? 0:28 | So if you didn't enter the data in the acounts system, it doesn't show up. 0:28 <       jima> | jpo, warren: add your nicks to the accounts system :) 0:28 <         thl> | I'm quite busy up to sunday 0:28 <     bpepple> | abadger1999: Looks nice. 0:28 <      warren> | jima, eh? 0:28 <    dgilmore> | thl: wife/girlfreind's  are important to keep happy 0:28 <        jima> | warren: the accounts system doesn't have your irc nick. it's kinda obvious, but it shows up as "None" in the voting app :) 0:28 <       jima> | dgilmore: indeed they are 0:28 | thl: I can. 0:29 <      tibbs> | Hmm, too many good choices. 0:29 | thl: Do you want to set a date for comments to be in by so we can get the vote started? 0:29 <      tibbs> | Perhaps I won't vote for myself; that narrows it down a bit. 0:29 <     warren> | ok 0:30 <         thl> | abadger1999, yes, I'd like to set a date 0:30 <        thl> | what do you guys think? 0:30 <     warren> | "You are not a member of one of the groups eligible to vote in this election. If you think you should be, please contact someone ASAP." 0:30 <        thl> | Start the election next Thursday? 0:30 | Hmmm... are you in cvsextras in the accounts system? 0:30             * | jima selects more than 13 candidates and gets caught 0:30 <   dgilmore> | thl: open voting next thursday  and run for 2 weeks? 0:30 <    bpepple> | thl: Sounds good. How long would the voting last? 0:30 <       jima> | abadger1999: nice javascript catcher 0:30 <    Sopwith> | abadger1999: Out of curiosity, how are you checking for group membership? 0:31 | jima: That was spot's work :-) 0:31 | Using a function from website.py 0:31 <       jima> | spot: nice javascript catcher (even though he doesn't seem to be here) 0:31 <         thl> | I'd say one week should be enough 0:32 <         thl> | but on the other hand 0:32 <        scop> | I get the "you are not a member" welcome too 0:32 <    dgilmore> | thl: i was thinking for slow pokes 0:32 <         thl> | well, let's make it one and a half week 0:32 <     bpepple> | thl: +1 0:33 <         thl> | e.g. start on thursday 22 0:33 <    dgilmore> | sureopen on June 22 close on July 2 0:33 | Okay -- scop and warren have issues.  Anyone else? 0:33 <         thl> | end on July the 2 (Sunday) 0:33 <       tibbs> | Getting two weekends in there is a good idea. 0:33 <     bpepple> | abadger1999: Nope.  Was able to test vote fine. 0:33 <        jima> | are scop/warren in as sponsors or admins? 0:33             * | dgilmore voted and made sure i couldnt a second time 0:33 <        thl> | abadger1999, seems to work for me 0:34 <    dgilmore> | thl  +1 also 0:34 <       scop> | I'm a sponsor in cvsextras 0:34 <     warren> | abadger1999, I'm admin in cvsextras 0:34 | Sopwith:        groups = website.get_user_groups(self.dbh, userId) 0:35 <      tibbs> | I'm a sponsor, no problems here. 0:35 | Sopwith: Then compare each group returned against the legal voting groups in the elections database 0:36             * | jima votes, and can't vote again. good. 0:36 | Okay. I'll send out a mail with a request to look for bugs. 0:36 | And email scop and warren to try it out again when I track down what's causing the error for them. 0:37 <        thl> | abadger1999, only one chance to vote is the expected behaviour? 0:37 | Dates we're shooting for are: thursdar June 22 tuntil July 2 0:37 | thl: I discussed it with spot and one chance to vote is the current expected. 0:37 <        thl> | abadger1999, k 0:37 <      _wart_> | If you can only vote once, and can't change your vote later, then it should be mentioned on the ballot page. 0:38 <        thl> | _wart_, +1 0:38 | thl: spot's metaphor was once a vote is cast at a polling place it can't be changed. 0:38 | _wart_: I'll put that note on the ballot page as well. 0:38 <        thl> | abadger1999, yeah, I'm okay with that 0:38 <   dgilmore> | i think thats ok 0:39 <         thl> | abadger1999, I just remembered that I saw some code in a cvs commit that allowed a revote 0:39 <        thl> | (or somewhere else) 0:39 <        thl> | well, unimportant now 0:39 | I made a note in the code that we could enhance it to allow revotes. 0:39 | The database has the required information to make that possible. Just the code doesn't 0:40 <        thl> | abadger1999, let's see how it works 0:40 | thl: k 0:40 <        thl> | If people want revotes we can implement them for the next election 0:40 <   dgilmore> | I think no revotes 0:40 <        thl> | k, anything else that needs to be discussed for the election/voting system? 0:40 <       jima> | most real-world elections don't allow revotes. 0:41 <   dgilmore> | thl: i think its done. 0:41 <   dgilmore> | poke jeremy for ctrl-c 0:41 <        thl> | warren, I think you wanted to look into the CTRL-C problem 0:41 <       jima> | abadger1999: does this leave an audit trail? we may want to port it to the US election system ;) 0:41 <        thl> | warren, did you find time for it? 0:41 <     Sopwith> | abadger1999: That's the wrong function 0:42 <      warren> | thl, sorry no, I intended on talking about that during the admin meeting last week, but I burned out. 0:42 <      warren> | thl, I can do that todya. 0:42 <         thl> | warren, k, tia 0:42 <     Sopwith> | abadger1999: Use a loop over have_group instead - there's a reason not to fully trust get_user_groups, and I can't remember what it is! :( 0:43 | Sopwith: k. Oh. Is it suppoed to work but doesn't? 0:43 <        thl> | so, anything else regarding Extras people like to discuss now 0:43 | I thought I spotted a bug in it 0:43 <        thl> | otherwise I'll close this mini-meeting 0:43 | Sopwith: But when it worked, I thought I assumed I didn't know as much abut python as I thought. 0:44 <     edhill> | thl:  new sponsor nominations? 0:44 <        thl> | edhill, good idea 0:44 <        thl> | so, any sponsor nominations? 0:44 <    Sopwith> | abadger1999: Well, it wasn't working for warren, so I assume something's wrong. 0:45 <     edhill> | cool, I'd like to nominate Orion whos done the most reviews of any current non-sponsor 0:45 <     edhill> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/PackageStatus 0:45 <        thl> | edhill, thx; I'll forward that to the FESCo list; we'll discuss this next week in details 0:46 <        thl> | any other nominations? 0:46 <        thl> | seems not 0:46             * | thl will close the meeting in 60 0:47             * | thl will close the meeting in 20 0:47             * | thl will close the meeting in 10 0:48 <        thl> | -- MARK meeting end --