FedoraSummit/SummitIRCLog2HTML

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">  Fedora Summit (November 2006)    Fedora Summit (November 2006) ? 21:49      warren | So... big news of this is *ALL* updates in Fedora in an existing release will have update announcements. 21:50     lmacken | weeeee 21:50 <tr id="t21:51"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | warren after all committees approve it. 21:51</a> <tr id="t21:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| and useful metadata for pup/pirut 21:51</a> <tr id="t21:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| lmacken, will you be available during Thursday's FESCO meeting to help discuss the tools support angle of this? 21:51</a> <tr id="t21:51"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | dgilmore has been wanting that  21:51</a> <tr id="t21:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| lmacken: *forehead slap* 21:51</a> <tr id="t21:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| lmacken, I think FESCO's acceptance of this will rely on understanding how nice the process is with your update processing system. 21:51</a> <tr id="t21:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| warren: i think i can make it 21:51</a> <tr id="t21:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| i have to write 2 papers and take 2 more finals this week 21:52</a> <tr id="t21:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| lmacken, putting something online, even just screenshots to show ideas, would help for that meeting. 21:52</a> <tr id="t21:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| warren: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UpdatesSystem</a> 21:52</a> <tr id="t21:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| warren: like that ? 21:52</a> <tr id="t21:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| lmacken, do you want a publictest* machine to run a mock-up of this? 21:52</a> <tr id="t21:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| warren: i'm already working on test6.phx, but a publictest machine would probably be better 21:52</a> <tr id="t21:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| lmacken, damn, you rock! 21:52</a> <tr id="t21:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| i know. 21:52</a> <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| :) <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a>  <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">      wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| Hooray! Let's all talk to zoidberg! <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a>  <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">      wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| I mean, lmacken! <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a>  <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">    dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| lmacken: i can change test6 to publictest6 if you want <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a>  <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| lmacken, just change the IP address to a publictest address and reboot the xen guest, and update the InfrastructurePrivate page. <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a> <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| or dgilmore <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a> <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| lmacken: or warrens idea <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a> <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| dgilmore: sure, althought i haven't put any firewall rules on it yet <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a> <tr id="t21:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| i still need to hack up a pyroman config profile for our xen guests <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a> <tr id="t21:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| lmacken: public ports are 22 80 443 8887 8888 8889 <a href="#t21:54" class="time">21:54</a> <tr id="t21:54"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mmcgrath notes the infrastructure team as a whole is worried about port 22 being open. <a href="#t21:54" class="time">21:54</a> <tr id="t21:54"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | glezos has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t21:54" class="time">21:54</a> <tr id="t21:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| lmacken: denyhosts needs putting on also <a href="#t21:54" class="time">21:54</a> <tr id="t21:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| mmcgrath: yup sure am <a href="#t21:54" class="time">21:54</a> <tr id="t21:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Yes, that is why infrastructure team needs to approve anything that runs on publictest* addresses. <a href="#t21:54" class="time">21:54</a> <tr id="t21:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| IDEA <a href="#t21:54" class="time">21:54</a> <tr id="t21:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| 1) Approval required of infrastructure team <a href="#t21:54" class="time">21:54</a>  <tr id="t21:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| 2) denyhosts must be configured <a href="#t21:55" class="time">21:55</a> <tr id="t21:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| 3) ssh key authentication ONLY <a href="#t21:55" class="time">21:55</a>  <tr id="t21:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">     lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| +1 <a href="#t21:55" class="time">21:55</a>  <tr id="t21:55"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | dgilmore is ok with that  <a href="#t21:55" class="time">21:55</a>  <tr id="t21:55"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | iWolf nods  <a href="#t21:55" class="time">21:55</a>  <tr id="t21:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">    mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| warren: +1 obviously but its going to be difficult to enforce since most people will have root on that box. <a href="#t21:55" class="time">21:55</a>  <tr id="t21:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Hmm, we have infrastructure quorum now, let's ratify? =) <a href="#t21:55" class="time">21:55</a> <tr id="t21:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| hmmm <a href="#t21:56" class="time">21:56</a>  <tr id="t21:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">    mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| s/that box/their box/ <a href="#t21:56" class="time">21:56</a>  <tr id="t21:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| mmcgrath, you're right, that is a flaw in this. <a href="#t21:57" class="time">21:57</a>  <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">    mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| I suppose due diligence is required on our part.  It won't be perfect but its something. <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a>  <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">    dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| warren: end users wont have root  only the people managing the test service <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| dgilmore, right <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| ok <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Ratify? <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| ratify <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| +1 from me <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| +1 <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| +1 <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #67c567">      iWolf <td class="text" style="color: #67c567">| +1 <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Given we don't have formal voting rules or a defined quorum size, I guess this is ratified. <a href="#t21:58" class="time">21:58</a> <tr id="t21:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #67c567">      iWolf <td class="text" style="color: #67c567">| :) <a href="#t21:59" class="time">21:59</a>  <tr id="t21:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">     lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| good good <a href="#t21:59" class="time">21:59</a>  <tr id="t22:00"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | warren posts new policy to list.  <a href="#t22:00" class="time">22:00</a>  <tr id="t22:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| lmacken, go ahead and change the IP and reboot the guest, but update the docs to reflect it. <a href="#t22:00" class="time">22:00</a>  <tr id="t22:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">     lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| warren: k <a href="#t22:00" class="time">22:00</a>  <tr id="t22:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| MEETING IS BACK! <a href="#t22:06" class="time">22:06</a> <tr id="t22:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * We have concluded that we want Borat to be the speaker at the next FUDCON. <a href="#t22:07" class="time">22:07</a> <tr id="t22:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Or Colbert <a href="#t22:07" class="time">22:07</a> <tr id="t22:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| Making of the OSS free for people! <a href="#t22:08" class="time">22:08</a> <tr id="t22:08"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | dgilmore votes for Borat <a href="#t22:08" class="time">22:08</a> <tr id="t22:08"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mmcgrath votes for Colbert in a mustache. <a href="#t22:08" class="time">22:08</a> <tr id="t22:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Legacy becomes Fedora Security Team <a href="#t22:09" class="time">22:09</a> <tr id="t22:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Core becomes Fedora (something), fully external <a href="#t22:09" class="time">22:09</a> <tr id="t22:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Fedora Security Team first Tracks problems and pokes maintainers to fix things. <a href="#t22:09" class="time">22:09</a> <tr id="t22:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Fedora Security Team may also fix things. <a href="#t22:09" class="time">22:09</a> <tr id="t22:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- proposes "fedora sustainability team" <a href="#t22:10" class="time">22:10</a> <tr id="t22:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * other people don't like the name <a href="#t22:10" class="time">22:10</a> <tr id="t22:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| renaming something isn't going to really change anything <a href="#t22:11" class="time">22:11</a> <tr id="t22:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * warren -- Proposed: If an old distribution fails to be maintained (older, less popular), retire it. <a href="#t22:11" class="time">22:11</a> <tr id="t22:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * people don't like that idea, because it is difficult to measure <a href="#t22:11" class="time">22:11</a> <tr id="t22:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| if you don't fix the issues Legacy has right now, you could call whatever you want and it still wouldn't work <a href="#t22:11" class="time">22:11</a> <tr id="t22:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- New Proposal: Security updates happen longer (in some way they are discussing) <a href="#t22:12" class="time">22:12</a> <tr id="t22:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| jwb, one idea is that Updates being fully in the open will allow lowering the bar and making it easier to sustain an older distro. <a href="#t22:12" class="time">22:12</a> <tr id="t22:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * mspevack -- I wish you waited a little longer before it becomes legacy. (What he hears often.) <a href="#t22:13" class="time">22:13</a> <tr id="t22:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| warren, "fully in the open" meaning no embargo? <a href="#t22:13" class="time">22:13</a> <tr id="t22:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Make it two instead of one. <a href="#t22:13" class="time">22:13</a> <tr id="t22:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| "running up the flag pole" <a href="#t22:13" class="time">22:13</a> <tr id="t22:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Possibly distro being fully in the open would allow community to help RH engineering to create updates, thereby reducing pressure on RH engineering. <a href="#t22:14" class="time">22:14</a> <tr id="t22:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * (talking about when to stop bug fixes on a FC release) <a href="#t22:14" class="time">22:14</a> <tr id="t22:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Proposed: Stop bug fixes and security updates for FC7 at FC9+1 month. <a href="#t22:15" class="time">22:15</a> <tr id="t22:15"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | llunved (llunved) [i=llunved@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t22:15" class="time">22:15</a> <tr id="t22:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| warren, perhaps but i doubt it. legacy releases are fully in the open now once they become legacy and it hasn't fixed things <a href="#t22:15" class="time">22:15</a> <tr id="t22:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| So.. that would lengthen the support window by ~60 days? <a href="#t22:16" class="time">22:16</a> <tr id="t22:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Debating whether or not Fedora will allow Legacy to happen on Fedora infrastructure or not. <a href="#t22:16" class="time">22:16</a> <tr id="t22:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| jwb, we don't know for certain <a href="#t22:17" class="time">22:17</a> <tr id="t22:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Clarity of distro retirement is very important to end users. <a href="#t22:17" class="time">22:17</a> <tr id="t22:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| Fedora DeadRelease Team <a href="#t22:18" class="time">22:18</a> <tr id="t22:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| There is skepticism here whether *anybody* can realistically maintain an older distro. <a href="#t22:18" class="time">22:18</a> <tr id="t22:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| warren, the only thing that is certain is death and taxes ;) <a href="#t22:18" class="time">22:18</a>  <tr id="t22:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Big thing, reducing scope. <a href="#t22:19" class="time">22:19</a>  <tr id="t22:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">      smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| To be honest.. I have to agree.. at this point, I just try to figure out a way to get someone converted to the nearest Centos release. <a href="#t22:19" class="time">22:19</a>  <tr id="t22:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jesse -- currently legacy maintains two releases <a href="#t22:19" class="time">22:19</a> <tr id="t22:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Fedora Security Team: tracking things for everything during lifecycle <a href="#t22:20" class="time">22:20</a> <tr id="t22:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * FC7 -&gt; FC9+1 month <a href="#t22:20" class="time">22:20</a> <tr id="t22:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Honesty is important here regarding Legacy's ability to work or fail. <a href="#t22:21" class="time">22:21</a> <tr id="t22:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jesse -- Legacy went from many to few people <a href="#t22:21" class="time">22:21</a> <tr id="t22:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, "jeremy -- If you need longer term maintenance, then you should look at longer term options like CentOS or RHEL." <a href="#t22:22" class="time">22:22</a> <tr id="t22:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * rdieter -- Compromising, extending lifetime <a href="#t22:22" class="time">22:22</a> <tr id="t22:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * notting -- reality, legacy has dropped down to one packager and a few other people <a href="#t22:23" class="time">22:23</a> <tr id="t22:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| (jkeating said too) <a href="#t22:23" class="time">22:23</a> <tr id="t22:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * davej -- upgrade from FC8 to FC10, will be testing that? <a href="#t22:23" class="time">22:23</a> <tr id="t22:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * everyone -- yes <a href="#t22:23" class="time">22:23</a> <tr id="t22:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| we used to have to test upgrade paths from 3 releases back <a href="#t22:23" class="time">22:23</a> <tr id="t22:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| NOTE: Things discussed here are proposals, nothing decided yet. <a href="#t22:24" class="time">22:24</a> <tr id="t22:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| RHEL-4.x/RHEL-3.0.3 -&gt; 5.x <a href="#t22:24" class="time">22:24</a> <tr id="t22:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| understood by me <a href="#t22:24" class="time">22:24</a> <tr id="t22:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| most of the people I know who have Fedora Legacy issues had it installed at a colo and needs updates <a href="#t22:25" class="time">22:25</a> <tr id="t22:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| I think FC(n-3)-&gt;FCn upgrades should still be tested, and I think upgrades should get a *lot* of work <a href="#t22:25" class="time">22:25</a> <tr id="t22:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jesse -- By making these adjustements, this obsoleting the need for an official Fedora Legacy project. <a href="#t22:25" class="time">22:25</a> <tr id="t22:25"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | warren this point not entirely in agreement here yet. <a href="#t22:25" class="time">22:25</a> <tr id="t22:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Extending useful lifetime to 13+ months while stopping to pretend that legacy was useful. We need truthful messaging. <a href="#t22:27" class="time">22:27</a> <tr id="t22:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| (Greg) <a href="#t22:27" class="time">22:27</a> <tr id="t22:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Change 13 month policy for FC5 immediately? <a href="#t22:29" class="time">22:29</a> <tr id="t22:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Yes, we think, need to check on this. <a href="#t22:29" class="time">22:29</a> <tr id="t22:30"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | dmalcolm has quit (Client Quit) <a href="#t22:30" class="time">22:30</a> <tr id="t22:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| 13 months from initial release? <a href="#t22:30" class="time">22:30</a> <tr id="t22:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| or 13 months after going legacy? <a href="#t22:30" class="time">22:30</a> <tr id="t22:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| jwb, 13 from initial <a href="#t22:30" class="time">22:30</a> <tr id="t22:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| jwb, example: FC7 lives on until FC9 + 1 month <a href="#t22:30" class="time">22:30</a> <tr id="t22:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| 13 months is an estimate <a href="#t22:30" class="time">22:30</a> <tr id="t22:30"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | sbarn has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t22:30" class="time">22:30</a> <tr id="t22:31"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | corbet thinks this is a big step in the right direction <a href="#t22:31" class="time">22:31</a> <tr id="t22:31"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | dmalcolm (David Malcolm) [i=dmalcolm@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t22:31" class="time">22:31</a> <tr id="t22:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| It seems like time spent maintaining (e.g.) FC3 would be better spent working on making upgrades from FC3 -&gt; FC6 worked well <a href="#t22:31" class="time">22:31</a> <tr id="t22:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Strong perception "legacy is not a success"... because "legacy is not a success" <a href="#t22:31" class="time">22:31</a> <tr id="t22:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| wwoods, yes, this is subject to more discussion. <a href="#t22:31" class="time">22:31</a> <tr id="t22:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| warren: right, just my opinion <a href="#t22:31" class="time">22:31</a> <tr id="t22:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| Strong perception that legacy is dead <a href="#t22:31" class="time">22:31</a> <tr id="t22:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| at 13 months, don't nuke the old tree from the servers, just don't post new updates <a href="#t22:33" class="time">22:33</a> <tr id="t22:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * wwoods keeps his hate strong. <a href="#t22:33" class="time">22:33</a> <tr id="t22:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #5caf5c">      nirik <td class="text" style="color: #5caf5c">| would help to have a tested/approved update method using yum... that would allow more folks to update instead of being stuck on old releases. <a href="#t22:33" class="time">22:33</a> <tr id="t22:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| warren: publictest2 is now the TurboGears guest (xen2) <a href="#t22:33" class="time">22:33</a> <tr id="t22:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| so people running can upgrade when *they* want, not when we release FC(N+2) on our scheudle <a href="#t22:33" class="time">22:33</a> <tr id="t22:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| nirik, please propose to FPB later to discuss and possibly ratify that as a standard. <a href="#t22:34" class="time">22:34</a> <tr id="t22:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Legacy team and RH engineering must approve of the discussed plan. <a href="#t22:34" class="time">22:34</a> <tr id="t22:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| nirik, actually, please begin on FAB <a href="#t22:34" class="time">22:34</a> <tr id="t22:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| nirik, are you on FAB? <a href="#t22:34" class="time">22:34</a> <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #5caf5c">      nirik <td class="text" style="color: #5caf5c">| nope... I'm not on anything. ;) <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a> <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| nirik, please talk to me after and we'll fix that. <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a>  <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">      wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| nirik: upgrading a running system is kind of hard, so yum updates will always be a bit dicey <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a>  <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">    mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| wwoods, I've gone 3-&gt;4-&gt;5-&gt;6 on mine :-) <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a> <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| but I personally feel that yum upgrades should be fully supported <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a> <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| not without some pain, but got there <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a> <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| mdomsch_: same here.. and it's kinda gross <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a> <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #5caf5c">      nirik <td class="text" style="color: #5caf5c">| yeah, although I have done it with the last few releases and the problems have gone down a lot. <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a> <tr id="t22:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| wwoods, many yum upgrade bugs are worth investigating, might not be possible to totally fix, but it is worth doing as an exercise. <a href="#t22:35" class="time">22:35</a> <tr id="t22:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| e.g. had to nuke my beagle conf to get it to work in FC6 <a href="#t22:36" class="time">22:36</a> <tr id="t22:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| once I nuked 3rd party repo packages first <a href="#t22:36" class="time">22:36</a> <tr id="t22:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| mdomsch_: oh lord, yes. also that. <a href="#t22:36" class="time">22:36</a> <tr id="t22:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| upgraded, then put them back <a href="#t22:36" class="time">22:36</a> <tr id="t22:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #5caf5c">      nirik <td class="text" style="color: #5caf5c">| see the decrease in issues on <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq</a> for example <a href="#t22:36" class="time">22:36</a> <tr id="t22:37"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | tibbs has quit ("Konversation terminated!") <a href="#t22:37" class="time">22:37</a> <tr id="t22:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| mdomsch_: the dirty secret is that anaconda just silently ignores 3rd-party packages. tada! no conflicts! <a href="#t22:37" class="time">22:37</a> <tr id="t22:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| wow <a href="#t22:38" class="time">22:38</a> <tr id="t22:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- reason why we don't officially support upgrade in place, is to allow the flexibility to make fundamental system changes. For example: static dev to udev. <a href="#t22:39" class="time">22:39</a> <tr id="t22:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * max -- Makes it an incredibly hard sell, (Fedora vs. other distro) <a href="#t22:39" class="time">22:39</a> <tr id="t22:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- upgrades have been failing badly for Ubuntu <a href="#t22:40" class="time">22:40</a> <tr id="t22:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| right, it would be nice if there was a yum-based upgrade that worked *almost* like that <a href="#t22:40" class="time">22:40</a> <tr id="t22:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Like I said, we should *TRY* to make it work, and test it, and fix bugs when we can. <a href="#t22:40" class="time">22:40</a> <tr id="t22:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| i.e. it pulls all the packages, reboots into an updater image, runs the update, and then boots the new system <a href="#t22:40" class="time">22:40</a> <tr id="t22:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| But it might not be possible to guarantee it to work. <a href="#t22:40" class="time">22:40</a> <tr id="t22:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| someone could probably write a simple python script to do that, in fact. <a href="#t22:41" class="time">22:41</a> <tr id="t22:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Fixing bugs found during in-place yum upgrades often do fix legitimate problems that would happen in anaconda upgrades. <a href="#t22:41" class="time">22:41</a> <tr id="t22:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Greg - "Put some pants on by the way!" <a href="#t22:42" class="time">22:42</a> <tr id="t22:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Max - "Let's all understand the way the QA was done for FC6, and what level of community help we had, your time being used for (talking too fast..." <a href="#t22:42" class="time">22:42</a>  <tr id="t22:43"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | warren has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- wwoods (QA test lead) interrogation  <a href="#t22:43" class="time">22:43</a>  <tr id="t22:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">         f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| ====  Taking a moment to talk to wwoods. ==== <a href="#t22:43" class="time">22:43</a>  <tr id="t22:43"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | f13 is taking over as IRC monkey  <a href="#t22:43" class="time">22:43</a>  <tr id="t22:43"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | warren hands banana to f13. <a href="#t22:43" class="time">22:43</a> <tr id="t22:44"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | [splinux] has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))  <a href="#t22:44" class="time">22:44</a> <tr id="t22:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Question, did bug zappers really work well? <a href="#t22:45" class="time">22:45</a> <tr id="t22:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| f13: for maybe a week <a href="#t22:45" class="time">22:45</a> <tr id="t22:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Jack: went pretty well when I did it, but fell off when I went back to school. Lack of bug day coordination. <a href="#t22:45" class="time">22:45</a> <tr id="t22:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Jack: people doing it felt unloved due to lack of coordination and communication. <a href="#t22:45" class="time">22:45</a> <tr id="t22:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Jeremy: Works for gnome, but has a constant driver <a href="#t22:45" class="time">22:45</a> <tr id="t22:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| *Talking about ranking system with scores and ranks. <a href="#t22:46" class="time">22:46</a> <tr id="t22:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| "level 1 packager with +3 sword." <a href="#t22:46" class="time">22:46</a> <tr id="t22:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Max: Unless the people whom you're asking to do bug work are seeing quick results, the incentive goes away <a href="#t22:47" class="time">22:47</a> <tr id="t22:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Completely right ^^^ <a href="#t22:47" class="time">22:47</a> <tr id="t22:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Max: there seemed to be no control over blocker bugs <a href="#t22:47" class="time">22:47</a> <tr id="t22:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Max: Did Will have the power to block the release? <a href="#t22:48" class="time">22:48</a> <tr id="t22:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Answer: yes. <a href="#t22:48" class="time">22:48</a> <tr id="t22:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * talking about FC6Blocker but not being empty, because anybody could add <a href="#t22:48" class="time">22:48</a> <tr id="t22:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Freedom to add is important <a href="#t22:48" class="time">22:48</a> <tr id="t22:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria</a> <a href="#t22:48" class="time">22:48</a> <tr id="t22:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Release cabal decided what were the "actual real blockers" and try to be happy at release time <a href="#t22:48" class="time">22:48</a> <tr id="t22:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * release cabal did stop release a few times to fix critical bugs. <a href="#t22:49" class="time">22:49</a> <tr id="t22:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Max: File a bug, block "test 1 triage", and team goes through it. <a href="#t22:49" class="time">22:49</a> <tr id="t22:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Jesse -- Maintainers should  look at bugs <a href="#t22:49" class="time">22:49</a> <tr id="t22:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * notting -- maintainers use blockers as a TODO list <a href="#t22:49" class="time">22:49</a> <tr id="t22:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- from prior experience, it is a full time job to do triage <a href="#t22:50" class="time">22:50</a> <tr id="t22:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * davej -- there will always be nasty bugs that can't be fixed (TOO MANY!) <a href="#t22:50" class="time">22:50</a> <tr id="t22:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * max -- Few people that bother to do good things in bugzilla tend to be ignored. <a href="#t22:50" class="time">22:50</a> <tr id="t22:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| engineers of packages in core, make what appear to be arbitrary decisions that frustrates and  disincentives community involvement in QA. <a href="#t22:51" class="time">22:51</a> <tr id="t22:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #60b6b6">       ajax <td class="text" style="color: #60b6b6">| disincents. <a href="#t22:51" class="time">22:51</a> <tr id="t22:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * greg -- fundamental intractable problem that is QA, identify most useful activities ... (talking too fast) <a href="#t22:51" class="time">22:51</a> <tr id="t22:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * greg -- bug day: virtual equivalent of buying people a pizza to do work <a href="#t22:51" class="time">22:51</a> <tr id="t22:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * promise to people around them to be there (compared to 3 hour party in evercrack) <a href="#t22:52" class="time">22:52</a> <tr id="t22:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * We need commitment from engineering^WFedora contributors to meet community half-way, so QA people feel good about doing it. <a href="#t22:53" class="time">22:53</a> <tr id="t22:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| talk about testing.108, and RHTS type stuff. <a href="#t22:53" class="time">22:53</a> <tr id="t22:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| the RHTS guys are very excited about bringing it to Fedora <a href="#t22:53" class="time">22:53</a> <tr id="t22:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| (RHTS is an automated suite of regression tests.) <a href="#t22:55" class="time">22:55</a> <tr id="t22:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Not all parts are open, and there is chicken / egg problem. No tests to build infrastructure around, no infrastructure to build tests. <a href="#t22:55" class="time">22:55</a> <tr id="t22:59"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | graveyard has quit  <a href="#t22:59" class="time">22:59</a> <tr id="t23:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Discussion regarding watching bug reports and escelating to "common" issues. <a href="#t23:00" class="time">23:00</a> <tr id="t23:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Greg - People do Extras because they need it. People do translations (even with shit infrastructure) and it succeeds because they need it. <a href="#t23:01" class="time">23:01</a> <tr id="t23:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Greg - Motivations for communicaty projects are not intrinsic, (digging to bugzilla shit) <a href="#t23:02" class="time">23:02</a> <tr id="t23:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| does this cover about people with large number of NEW bug events to their name from multiple releases? <a href="#t23:02" class="time">23:02</a> <tr id="t23:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Manager/SIG escelation there.. :/ <a href="#t23:02" class="time">23:02</a> <tr id="t23:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Greg: how do we concentrate on making sure that people give a shit about this? <a href="#t23:02" class="time">23:02</a> <tr id="t23:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| wwoods -- better tools <a href="#t23:03" class="time">23:03</a> <tr id="t23:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| wwoods -- add incentives <a href="#t23:03" class="time">23:03</a> <tr id="t23:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| jesse -- enable people to fix shit themselves <a href="#t23:03" class="time">23:03</a> <tr id="t23:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| greg -- motivation for filing bug, dependent on increased expectation that bug will actually be fixed <a href="#t23:03" class="time">23:03</a> <tr id="t23:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| solve motivation problem? <a href="#t23:03" class="time">23:03</a> <tr id="t23:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| well as a customer and talking to other people.. you don't get new bugs when you see that xyz maintainer hasnt changed a Bugzilla from NEW to TAKEN (or whatever) since 1999 <a href="#t23:05" class="time">23:05</a> <tr id="t23:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| warren said: <a href="#t23:05" class="time">23:05</a> <tr id="t23:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| People driven QA requires constant manual input <a href="#t23:05" class="time">23:05</a> <tr id="t23:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| "Bug day" is one-time and did not create something self-sustaining. <a href="#t23:05" class="time">23:05</a> <tr id="t23:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Better investment is to create automated ranking systems (like GNOME Bugzilla) that encourages fundamental changes in volunteer behavior, due to a feeling of competition and accomplishment. <a href="#t23:05" class="time">23:05</a> <tr id="t23:05"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | markmc has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t23:05" class="time">23:05</a> <tr id="t23:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| it is also used as sales part from other companies. "Well if they are so good, why isnt NetworkManager bugs ever cleared" <a href="#t23:06" class="time">23:06</a> <tr id="t23:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Discussing pros and cons of using Bugzilla for a scoring system. <a href="#t23:07" class="time">23:07</a> <tr id="t23:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Possibility of adding scoring/ranking/reward system to upstream bugzilla, because this is something that projects need in general. <a href="#t23:09" class="time">23:09</a> <tr id="t23:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| split the problem into multiple parts <a href="#t23:10" class="time">23:10</a> <tr id="t23:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| it's not "all bugs" but "class of bugs #1, #2, #3, ..." <a href="#t23:10" class="time">23:10</a> <tr id="t23:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Bugzilla is featuritis overload. Everyone that uses Bugzilla is forking it. <a href="#t23:10" class="time">23:10</a> <tr id="t23:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| like we did with the BuidRequires <a href="#t23:10" class="time">23:10</a> <tr id="t23:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| karma <a href="#t23:11" class="time">23:11</a> <tr id="t23:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/FixBuildRequires">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/FixBuildRequires</a> tried <a href="#t23:12" class="time">23:12</a> <tr id="t23:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| but the folks who did it really didn't do it for karma points <a href="#t23:12" class="time">23:12</a> <tr id="t23:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| they did it for the love of a "better" distro <a href="#t23:13" class="time">23:13</a> <tr id="t23:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| mdomsch_: yes, that was the interesting thing to me <a href="#t23:13" class="time">23:13</a> <tr id="t23:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| speaking of, wwoods, we need to get those karma points redeemed soon. <a href="#t23:14" class="time">23:14</a> <tr id="t23:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| f13: indeed <a href="#t23:15" class="time">23:15</a> <tr id="t23:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Possibly scoring could be done by an async process that queries the Bugzilla and updates scores elsewhere periodically. <a href="#t23:17" class="time">23:17</a> <tr id="t23:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * wwoods talking about RHTS ... <a href="#t23:17" class="time">23:17</a> <tr id="t23:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * writing test plans not exciting, but helpful <a href="#t23:19" class="time">23:19</a> <tr id="t23:20"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | jwb is now known as jwb_gone <a href="#t23:20" class="time">23:20</a> <tr id="t23:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * warren: Incentivize writing documentation with Love/Hate links, which contributes to the point ranking system! <a href="#t23:22" class="time">23:22</a> <tr id="t23:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Single Sign-On is where the points are tracked! <a href="#t23:22" class="time">23:22</a> <tr id="t23:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Race: Elvish <a href="#t23:22" class="time">23:22</a> <tr id="t23:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| maybe you could tie it into Mugshot? <a href="#t23:23" class="time">23:23</a> <tr id="t23:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, yes, there was discussion of this. <a href="#t23:24" class="time">23:24</a> <tr id="t23:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, Mugshot creates excellent opportunities in devel information sharing <a href="#t23:24" class="time">23:24</a> <tr id="t23:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * (Add some kind of points tracking thing to the account system schema maybe) <a href="#t23:25" class="time">23:25</a> <tr id="t23:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #6bcccc">   dmalcolm <td class="text" style="color: #6bcccc">| wwoods: BTW, I've been working on code that makes it very easy to create a regression test for a package's rpmlint output within RHTS <a href="#t23:26" class="time">23:26</a> <tr id="t23:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| dmalcolm: yay! <a href="#t23:26" class="time">23:26</a> <tr id="t23:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Points are not about earning stuff, but earning community respect and "cred" <a href="#t23:26" class="time">23:26</a> <tr id="t23:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| I mean I am more interested in recommending bugs/software than songs <a href="#t23:26" class="time">23:26</a> <tr id="t23:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, as Havoc said it earlier today, "If you don't have any nerd friends, you wont see nerd things." <a href="#t23:27" class="time">23:27</a> <tr id="t23:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| mdomsch_: thanks for that update (: <a href="#t23:27" class="time">23:27</a>  <tr id="t23:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, Mugshot shows you stuff depending on who your friends are. <a href="#t23:27" class="time">23:27</a>  <tr id="t23:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">      smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| hmmm I guess I don't have any friends :) <a href="#t23:27" class="time">23:27</a> <tr id="t23:28"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | mspevack has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t23:28" class="time">23:28</a> <tr id="t23:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| np <a href="#t23:29" class="time">23:29</a> <tr id="t23:29"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mdomsch_ nuked the 16GB of trees a few days ago to reclaim the space <a href="#t23:29" class="time">23:29</a> <tr id="t23:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| heh <a href="#t23:29" class="time">23:29</a> <tr id="t23:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| <a href="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Testing/Meetings/20061109">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Testing/Meetings/20061109</a> <a href="#t23:30" class="time">23:30</a> <tr id="t23:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| smooge: you and me both :D <a href="#t23:31" class="time">23:31</a> <tr id="t23:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #c36666"> green_west <td class="text" style="color: #c36666">| quaid: ping <a href="#t23:31" class="time">23:31</a> <tr id="t23:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #c36666"> green_west <td class="text" style="color: #c36666">| quaid: are you on the call <a href="#t23:31" class="time">23:31</a> <tr id="t23:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| green_west, the bridge is dead now <a href="#t23:33" class="time">23:33</a> <tr id="t23:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #c36666"> green_west <td class="text" style="color: #c36666">| yes, but if he was on, he wouldnt be disconnected <a href="#t23:34" class="time">23:34</a> <tr id="t23:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| green_west, new calls incoming after 5pm stopped <a href="#t23:34" class="time">23:34</a> <tr id="t23:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Meritocracy, people writing code are those who make decisions about the direction of Fedora. <a href="#t23:40" class="time">23:40</a> <tr id="t23:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| s/writing code/doing works/ <a href="#t23:41" class="time">23:41</a> <tr id="t23:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| :P <a href="#t23:41" class="time">23:41</a> <tr id="t23:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Greg -- What about Live CD? <a href="#t23:42" class="time">23:42</a> <tr id="t23:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * notting -- LiveCD does not rely on anaconda <a href="#t23:42" class="time">23:42</a> <tr id="t23:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Problem: skill levels required to do a certain thing, VERY DIFFICULT to hire someone to work on anaconda. <a href="#t23:42" class="time">23:42</a> <tr id="t23:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * max -- wanting to solve problem of RH engineering not being able to focus on key priorities important for Fedora <a href="#t23:44" class="time">23:44</a> <tr id="t23:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- difficult o_O <a href="#t23:44" class="time">23:44</a> <tr id="t23:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #c3c366">        jrb <td class="text" style="color: #c3c366">| hrm <a href="#t23:44" class="time">23:44</a> <tr id="t23:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Fedora does not do a good job of enumerating what is important <a href="#t23:44" class="time">23:44</a> <tr id="t23:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| thus the goal of this summit <a href="#t23:44" class="time">23:44</a> <tr id="t23:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| how do people who actually want to use Fedora but aren't coders (but say admins/IT/bugtesters) have a say in the direction of Fedora <a href="#t23:44" class="time">23:44</a> <tr id="t23:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, meritocracy... if you aren't contributing in a big way, it is difficult to be respected in a meritocracy. <a href="#t23:45" class="time">23:45</a> <tr id="t23:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, if someone without skills but resources (like money), they could put up bug bounties <a href="#t23:45" class="time">23:45</a> <tr id="t23:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Also... if someone without TIME but money, they could put up bug bounties. <a href="#t23:45" class="time">23:45</a> <tr id="t23:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, also... respect alone isn't useful in getting something. WORKING CODE can be. <a href="#t23:46" class="time">23:46</a> <tr id="t23:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| (Still talking about resource scarcity) <a href="#t23:47" class="time">23:47</a> <tr id="t23:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #c3c366">        jrb <td class="text" style="color: #c3c366">| warren: is the goal of the summit to enumerate what's important to fedora? <a href="#t23:47" class="time">23:47</a> <tr id="t23:47"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mmcgrath wonders how other OSS projects deal with resouce issues. <a href="#t23:47" class="time">23:47</a> <tr id="t23:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- Going to world where everything is external, everyone has to be held to the same standards. (Community contributing code determines direction and what happens. ... maybe...) <a href="#t23:48" class="time">23:48</a> <tr id="t23:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| jrb, one of many goals of the summit <a href="#t23:48" class="time">23:48</a> <tr id="t23:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| jrb, nothing really was decided in finality here. This was mainly a valuable exercise in putting heads together, posing questions and thinking about options. <a href="#t23:50" class="time">23:50</a> <tr id="t23:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #c3c366">        jrb <td class="text" style="color: #c3c366">| warren: do I get to vote? (-; <a href="#t23:50" class="time">23:50</a> <tr id="t23:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">      smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| warren, I understand that but that goes to the question: why would I want to use Fedora for some project if I have no standing in finding that a current direction is broke? <a href="#t23:50" class="time">23:50</a>  <tr id="t23:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| jrb, in the actual decisions that result from recommendations of this summit, yes. <a href="#t23:51" class="time">23:51</a>  <tr id="t23:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| jrb, have time to stop by tomorrow on the last day of the summit?  Topics ... LiveCD, What's in Fedora? "non-free" repos/links, FUDCon/Summit, Max's ideas <a href="#t23:52" class="time">23:52</a> <tr id="t23:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #c3c366">        jrb <td class="text" style="color: #c3c366">| warren: alright... <a href="#t23:52" class="time">23:52</a> <tr id="t23:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jeremy -- We work upstream, we work upstream, we work upstream. <a href="#t23:52" class="time">23:52</a> <tr id="t23:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * GENERALLY WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT: Resource scarcity problem. RH can't do everything that is important for Fedora. Fedora is becoming fully external. Meritocracy is important to Fedora. Hopefully this will allow Fedora itself to easier add things that are important to Fedora. <a href="#t23:54" class="time">23:54</a> <tr id="t23:55"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | wwoods has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- Resource scarcity problem - how do we decide what to work on? <a href="#t23:55" class="time">23:55</a> <tr id="t23:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * notting -- (ask eng managers) What things we would like in Fedora we can have egineers work on upstream? <a href="#t23:55" class="time">23:55</a> <tr id="t23:55"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | wwoods no longer being interrogated! <a href="#t23:55" class="time">23:55</a> <tr id="t23:55"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | mizmo_ is now known as mizmo-out <a href="#t23:55" class="time">23:55</a> <tr id="t23:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| laptops <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a> <tr id="t23:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| mdomsch_: they are useful :D <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a> <tr id="t23:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * notting -- interesting thing, why nobody in RHEL cares about LiveCD? <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a> <tr id="t23:56"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mdomsch_ thinks laptop features should be a key driver for FC7 <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a> <tr id="t23:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #9b519b">       spot <td class="text" style="color: #9b519b">| because there is so little corporate Linux on desktop? <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a> <tr id="t23:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Priority: LiveCD or Xen? <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a> <tr id="t23:56"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | tibbs|h is now known as tibbs <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a> <tr id="t23:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| notting: I bet they'll care more when xen, virtualization, and stateless linux takes off. <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a> <tr id="t23:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| something loses =( <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a>  <tr id="t23:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">    mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| lowering power consumption <a href="#t23:56" class="time">23:56</a>  <tr id="t23:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">    mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| wifi / bluetooth <a href="#t23:57" class="time">23:57</a>  <tr id="t23:57"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mdomsch_ is hardware-centric  <a href="#t23:57" class="time">23:57</a>  <tr id="t23:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">      warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Fundamental issue that we try to do as much of everything in upstream in possible <a href="#t23:57" class="time">23:57</a> <tr id="t23:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| warren: id choose xen over livecd <a href="#t23:57" class="time">23:57</a> <tr id="t23:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| dgilmore, thus it is the job of Fedora to beat^Wencourage a community project to seriously make LiveCD happen. <a href="#t23:58" class="time">23:58</a> <tr id="t23:58"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mdomsch_ needs to go cook steaks soon <a href="#t23:58" class="time">23:58</a> <tr id="t23:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| dgilmore: but you could do both ;-) <a href="#t23:58" class="time">23:58</a>  <tr id="t23:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">    dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| mmcgrath: sure i could <a href="#t23:58" class="time">23:58</a>  <tr id="t23:58"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | dgilmore is not that sadistic  <a href="#t23:58" class="time">23:58</a>  <tr id="t23:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">    mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| heh <a href="#t23:58" class="time">23:58</a>  <tr id="t23:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">    mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| part of LiveCD challenge has been - no offense jeremy <a href="#t23:58" class="time">23:58</a>  <tr id="t23:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">    mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| jeremy saying "sure, I'll work on it, when I've got time" <a href="#t23:59" class="time">23:59</a> <tr id="t23:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jesse -- Fedora goes after upstream to fix things (crap makefiles, HIG compliance, etc.) <a href="#t23:59" class="time">23:59</a> <tr id="t23:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| which scares others away, because they know he'll do a good job <a href="#t23:59" class="time">23:59</a> <tr id="t23:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| if he gets the time <a href="#t23:59" class="time">23:59</a> <tr id="t23:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * jesse -- Do not patch locally, go after upstream to fix it for everyone. <a href="#t23:59" class="time">23:59</a> <tr id="t23:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * should be job of maintainer <a href="#t23:59" class="time">23:59</a> <tr id="t23:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #b86161">   mdomsch_ <td class="text" style="color: #b86161">| e.g. the "don't bite off more than you can chew" <a href="#t23:59" class="time">23:59</a> <td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- Day changed Mi Nov 15 2006 <tr id="t00:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Max - Let's go drink. <a href="#t00:00" class="time">00:00</a> <tr id="t00:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| * Jeremy - Let's sum up what we did today. <a href="#t00:00" class="time">00:00</a> <tr id="t00:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| It is totally beer-thirty, you guys <a href="#t00:00" class="time">00:00</a> <tr id="t00:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| GTFO 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href="#t10:12" class="time">10:12</a> <tr id="t10:26"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | dwmw2_PVG is now known as mlj <a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a> <tr id="t10:26"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | mlj is now known as dwmw2_PVG <a href="#t10:26" class="time">10:26</a> <tr id="t10:28"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | dwmw2_PVG [i=ctrlprox@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "fish")  <a href="#t10:28" class="time">10:28</a> <tr id="t12:06"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | abostrom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <a href="#t12:06" class="time">12:06</a> <tr id="t13:18"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | Panzerboy [n=stelian@removed] has left #fedora-summit   <a href="#t13:18" class="time">13:18</a> <tr id="t13:46"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | EvilBob (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) [n=BobJense@removed] has joined #Fedora-Summit  <a href="#t13:46" class="time">13:46</a> <tr id="t13:53"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | jwb_gone is now known as jwb <a href="#t13:53" class="time">13:53</a> <tr id="t14:15"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t14:15" class="time">14:15</a> <tr id="t14:18"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | twunder (Tim Wunder) [n=twunder@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t14:18" class="time">14:18</a> <tr id="t14:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #6dcf6d">    twunder <td class="text" style="color: #6dcf6d">| hi... just hangin out, per rdieter's e-mail to kde-redhat-users :) <a href="#t14:19" class="time">14:19</a> <tr id="t14:20"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | llunved (llunved) [n=llunved@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t14:20" class="time">14:20</a>  <tr id="t14:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #6e6ed1">     rdieter <td class="text" style="color: #6e6ed1">| twunder: hi, just about ready to head off to breakfast... then sumitting again in ~40 minutes. <a href="#t14:21" class="time">14:21</a>  <tr id="t14:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #6dcf6d">     twunder <td class="text" style="color: #6dcf6d">| rdieter: enjoy :) <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a> <tr id="t14:28"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | twunder is stuck at work :( <a href="#t14:28" class="time">14:28</a>  <tr id="t14:29"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | Lovechild (David Nielsen) [n=david@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t14:29" class="time">14:29</a>  <tr id="t14:33"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | dgilmore_ is now known as dgilmore  <a href="#t14:33" class="time">14:33</a>  <tr id="t14:44"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))  <a href="#t14:44" class="time">14:44</a>  <tr id="t14:54"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | EvilBob is now known as BobJensen  <a href="#t14:54" class="time">14:54</a>  <tr id="t14:58"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | c4chris_ (Christian Iseli) [n=chris@removed]  has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t14:58" class="time">14:58</a>  <tr id="t14:59"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | c4chris has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))  <a href="#t14:59" class="time">14:59</a> <tr id="t15:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| agenda for the day? <a href="#t15:03" class="time">15:03</a> <tr id="t15:08"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | jcollie (jcollie) [n=jcollie@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:08" class="time">15:08</a> <tr id="t15:14"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | mspevack (Max Spevack) [n=mspevack@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:14" class="time">15:14</a> <tr id="t15:14"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | rdieter has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t15:14" class="time">15:14</a> <tr id="t15:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| good morning Fedora <a href="#t15:14" class="time">15:14</a> <tr id="t15:15"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | mspevack has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- current topic LiveCD <a href="#t15:15" class="time">15:15</a> <tr id="t15:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| come to order here in the next few minutes <a href="#t15:15" class="time">15:15</a> <tr id="t15:15"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:15" class="time">15:15</a> <tr id="t15:16"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | rdieter has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) <a href="#t15:16" class="time">15:16</a> <tr id="t15:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| Good morning Max <a href="#t15:16" class="time">15:16</a> <tr id="t15:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| mspevack: agenda for the day? <a href="#t15:16" class="time">15:16</a> <tr id="t15:16"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | rdieter (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:16" class="time">15:16</a> <tr id="t15:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| Live CD <a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a> <tr id="t15:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| "other repos" <a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a> <tr id="t15:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| and then unclear <a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a> <tr id="t15:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| the order <a href="#t15:17" class="time">15:17</a> <tr id="t15:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| but things like FC7 feature list, FudCon/Red Hat Summit, branding <a href="#t15:18" class="time">15:18</a> <tr id="t15:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| danke <a href="#t15:18" class="time">15:18</a> <tr id="t15:19"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | f13 is IRC monkey today. <a href="#t15:19" class="time">15:19</a> <tr id="t15:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| topic switch. <a href="#t15:19" class="time">15:19</a> <tr id="t15:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| 'non-free repos' or more to the point 'non-free stuff' <a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a> <tr id="t15:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Jeremy: what about the children? <a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a> <tr id="t15:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg: we have teh opportunity to educate. "If you want flash, you will not be free, bug go here." <a href="#t15:20" class="time">15:20</a> <tr id="t15:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Jesse: What about the other arches... <a href="#t15:21" class="time">15:21</a> <tr id="t15:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Greg: we hvae a "sorry, doesn't work for !i386" <a href="#t15:21" class="time">15:21</a> <tr id="t15:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Why can't we ship gnash? <a href="#t15:22" class="time">15:22</a> <tr id="t15:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| answer: doesn't work for the main usage of flash. <a href="#t15:22" class="time">15:22</a> <tr id="t15:23"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | rdieter has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t15:23" class="time">15:23</a> <tr id="t15:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Also, fluendo mp3 <a href="#t15:23" class="time">15:23</a> <tr id="t15:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Fluendo terrorists are more supportable, given they are doing opensource software, just patent encombered <a href="#t15:23" class="time">15:23</a> <tr id="t15:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Fluendo requires a clickthrough, for i386/x86_64. no ppc yet? <a href="#t15:24" class="time">15:24</a> <tr id="t15:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Fluendo says we may be able to do it w/out a clickthrough. <a href="#t15:25" class="time">15:25</a> <tr id="t15:25"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | thl sill votes for: let us help fedora-unity or some other external website/organistion to host that stuff and ship a repo file for it that's disabled by default; I'd prefer to not have that stuff on our servers <a href="#t15:25" class="time">15:25</a> <tr id="t15:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| i sorta agree with thl <a href="#t15:25" class="time">15:25</a> <tr id="t15:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| though i would say we don't even ship the repo file <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Greg:  You request a mimetype, or click a button on the desktop. It sends you to a dialog that says "This is wrong. But if you really want it, Ok." -&gt; Next screen would lead you to fluendo. <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">        thl <td class="text" style="color: #57a657">| jwb, maybe even that, yet <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">        thl <td class="text" style="color: #57a657">| yes <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:26"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | BobJensen notes that Fedora Unity is willing to look at setting up a repo if the legal issues can be worked out. <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| thl: we can't ship a repo that points to it <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| contributory infringement. <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">        thl <td class="text" style="color: #57a657">| f13, k, then just help them to get that stuff running <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #57a657">        thl <td class="text" style="color: #57a657">| and let them provide the repo file <a href="#t15:26" class="time">15:26</a> <tr id="t15:27"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | BobJensen and provided it does not hurt other potential "endorcements" of Fedora Unity as a whole <a href="#t15:27" class="time">15:27</a> <tr id="t15:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| the gstreamer guys are making it easy to hook up the missing plugin message to something to be used to point people in the right direction, Christian Schaller blogged about it yesterday following the Ubuntu summit <a href="#t15:27" class="time">15:27</a> <tr id="t15:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Warren: Adobe will host their own rpms/yum repo in the future, firefox autoinstaller may work. <a href="#t15:27" class="time">15:27</a> <tr id="t15:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Flash is off the list. <a href="#t15:27" class="time">15:27</a> <tr id="t15:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| warren:  We have the opportunity to be the last champion of free software. Ubuntu lost, Novell really lost. <a href="#t15:28" class="time">15:28</a> <tr id="t15:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Our hardass stance on the patent issue has made it less comfortable for users, but we get more useful contributors who care about freedom. <a href="#t15:28" class="time">15:28</a> <tr id="t15:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| At what point do we sacrifice the user base for our beliefs? <a href="#t15:29" class="time">15:29</a> <tr id="t15:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| it is not really that hard for users to enable livna to get that mp3 <a href="#t15:29" class="time">15:29</a> <tr id="t15:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| at what point do we sacrifice our beliefs for the user (NOvell) <a href="#t15:29" class="time">15:29</a> <tr id="t15:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| doesn't the word "our" imply that a significant portion of the user base _shares_ the beliefs? <a href="#t15:30" class="time">15:30</a> <tr id="t15:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Lovechild: it isn't, but we continually get beaten up because they can't figure it out from an install. <a href="#t15:30" class="time">15:30</a> <tr id="t15:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jwb: yes, and a significant portion of our userbase DOES. <a href="#t15:30" class="time">15:30</a> <tr id="t15:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| I guess my point is that no matter how "greater than thou" we try to be the end users still want the cruft <a href="#t15:30" class="time">15:30</a> <tr id="t15:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| the cruft can be had rather easily from elsewhere <a href="#t15:31" class="time">15:31</a> <tr id="t15:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| greg -- this stuff won't be on our servers in any event <a href="#t15:31" class="time">15:31</a> <tr id="t15:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| f13: would it be an option to use the new gstreamer stuff to pop up a message box tell people why we can't ship this and have it install in one click? <a href="#t15:31" class="time">15:31</a> <tr id="t15:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| greg -- what i'm proposing is making it easier to point to other servers and agree to their licenses <a href="#t15:31" class="time">15:31</a> <tr id="t15:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Lovechild: thats what Greg is proposing. <a href="#t15:31" class="time">15:31</a> <tr id="t15:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| f13: it seems like a good compromise.. I personally enjoy the stance the Fedora project takes on non-free stuff <a href="#t15:32" class="time">15:32</a> <tr id="t15:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- Goal is to keep the distro 100% redistributable. Having a button on the desktop that points to Fluendo does NOT change the redistributable. <a href="#t15:33" class="time">15:33</a> <tr id="t15:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- mp3 is the target we want to go for, forget the slippery slope <a href="#t15:35" class="time">15:35</a> <tr id="t15:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- Wireless is a bigger problem, and a harder one to solve. <a href="#t15:35" class="time">15:35</a> <tr id="t15:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| the order users seem to care about is mp3, video codecs, drivers.. clearly we can't fix the driver thing nicely for any party, not without sending poor davej off the deep end. <a href="#t15:37" class="time">15:37</a> <tr id="t15:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Jeremy -- I worry about firmware that is not freely redistributable <a href="#t15:39" class="time">15:39</a> <tr id="t15:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| warren -- I care about free for non-commercial <a href="#t15:40" class="time">15:40</a> <tr id="t15:40"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | mdomsch (Matt Domsch) [n=mdomsch@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:40" class="time">15:40</a> <tr id="t15:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #60b6b6">       ajax <td class="text" style="color: #60b6b6">| one long term solution we should be looking at for wireless and, cough, other drivers is providing a path for users to find the appropriate upstream to work with <a href="#t15:40" class="time">15:40</a> <tr id="t15:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| warren -- copyright issues are somewhat solveable. <a href="#t15:40" class="time">15:40</a> <tr id="t15:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- do we want to go through teh pain of setting up another repo that is 'free for non-commercial' now that e're trying to merge extras and core? <a href="#t15:41" class="time">15:41</a> <tr id="t15:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #60b6b6">       ajax <td class="text" style="color: #60b6b6">| drivers aren't magic, they're just hard. we should be enabling people who want to make open drivers work. <a href="#t15:41" class="time">15:41</a> <tr id="t15:42"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | rdieter_away (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:42" class="time">15:42</a> <tr id="t15:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| i hate the free-for-non-commercial stuff <a href="#t15:42" class="time">15:42</a> <tr id="t15:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| me too <a href="#t15:42" class="time">15:42</a> <tr id="t15:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- what prevents solving mp3 is the slippery slope which leads to discussions. <a href="#t15:42" class="time">15:42</a> <tr id="t15:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jwb: I do as well. Die die die. <a href="#t15:42" class="time">15:42</a> <tr id="t15:43"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | llunved (llunved) [i=llunved@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:43" class="time">15:43</a> <tr id="t15:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- mp3 leads us to things like mpeg stuff and dvd stuff, where there isn't a mp3 solution (fluendo) just yet <a href="#t15:43" class="time">15:43</a> <tr id="t15:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| god I hate software patents.. <a href="#t15:43" class="time">15:43</a> <tr id="t15:44"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | rdieter_away has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t15:44" class="time">15:44</a> <tr id="t15:44"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | rdieter1 (Rex Dieter) [n=rdieter@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:44" class="time">15:44</a> <tr id="t15:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- the reviewers that hit us on mp3 don't just bring up mp3, so by solving just mp3, what are we actually solving? <a href="#t15:45" class="time">15:45</a> <tr id="t15:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| warren -- are we making an assumption that supporting mp3 will help us more than hurt us? <a href="#t15:45" class="time">15:45</a> <tr id="t15:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| we aren't solving anything, we are merely moving the issue to the next time someone hits a file they can't play. <a href="#t15:45" class="time">15:45</a> <tr id="t15:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| the reviews will still read "Well.... it works in Ubuntu" <a href="#t15:46" class="time">15:46</a> <tr id="t15:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| greg -- RULE NUMBER 1: always ship redistributable software <a href="#t15:46" class="time">15:46</a> <tr id="t15:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| greg -- RULE NUMBER 2: where 1 is not possible, always follow the law <a href="#t15:46" class="time">15:46</a> <tr id="t15:46"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | craigt (Craig Thomas) [n=ct@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:46" class="time">15:46</a> <tr id="t15:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- what we've been talking about how to make fedora open, and how to make your own fedoras. Somebody in the future can do a spin of something that is Fedora + Livna + whatever. They can't call it Fedora, but... <a href="#t15:46" class="time">15:46</a> <tr id="t15:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- in doing so, do we create the next Mandrake (KDE-qt issue...) <a href="#t15:47" class="time">15:47</a> <tr id="t15:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| &lt;grin&gt; "How to make your own fedoras" <a href="#t15:47" class="time">15:47</a> <tr id="t15:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| .. a hattrick? <a href="#t15:47" class="time">15:47</a> <tr id="t15:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- we don't know if this is good or bad. <a href="#t15:47" class="time">15:47</a> <tr id="t15:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- but this is what we're trying to enable the community to do. <a href="#t15:47" class="time">15:47</a> <tr id="t15:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- in other parts of the world, this is perfectly free, why can't we allow them to enjoy their freedom? <a href="#t15:48" class="time">15:48</a> <tr id="t15:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| it's free for now <a href="#t15:48" class="time">15:48</a> <tr id="t15:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| dave -- where do the bugs go? <a href="#t15:48" class="time">15:48</a> <tr id="t15:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- preferrably the spinoff. <a href="#t15:48" class="time">15:48</a> <tr id="t15:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- these compromises already exist. Can we draw back the line of the argument to something that is more of a compromise that helps our users. <a href="#t15:49" class="time">15:49</a> <tr id="t15:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- the hard line is rule #1 <a href="#t15:49" class="time">15:49</a> <tr id="t15:49"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t15:49" class="time">15:49</a> <tr id="t15:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- the compromise is rule #2, pointing users on how to legally get the bits that are missing. <a href="#t15:50" class="time">15:50</a> <tr id="t15:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- I think thats right, we give them a way out to legally get that software. <a href="#t15:50" class="time">15:50</a> <tr id="t15:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| spot, by the way, every corporate email service has a recall built into it (Lotus, Exchange, Groupwise, etc) <a href="#t15:50" class="time">15:50</a> <tr id="t15:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- This is what is frustrating about Livna, as they're doing it that isn't legal in most of the world, so Fedora cannot point to livna due to contributory infringement. <a href="#t15:51" class="time">15:51</a> <tr id="t15:51"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | thl catches up <a href="#t15:51" class="time">15:51</a> <tr id="t15:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| oops wrong channel <a href="#t15:51" class="time">15:51</a> <tr id="t15:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| sorry <a href="#t15:51" class="time">15:51</a> <tr id="t15:51"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | thl also hates the free-for-non-commercial stuff <a href="#t15:51" class="time">15:51</a> <tr id="t15:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| talking about having an rpm of Thoreau's Civil Disobediance that is a requirement of any non-free software. <a href="#t15:52" class="time">15:52</a> <tr id="t15:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| at the very least we should replace the "missing support" messages with a polite educational message, spinoffs can hook up whatever they like. Right now it comes off to users as a bug which we just don't care about <a href="#t15:52" class="time">15:52</a> <tr id="t15:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| Lovechild: I agree <a href="#t15:53" class="time">15:53</a> <tr id="t15:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| If users understand the reason why, they tend to be less upset. Any solutions we can provide on top of that is icing on the cake really. <a href="#t15:54" class="time">15:54</a> <tr id="t15:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| much agreement <a href="#t15:54" class="time">15:54</a> <tr id="t15:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| the next obvious step is pointing in the polite message to Fluendo for a legal way to get the stuff. <a href="#t15:55" class="time">15:55</a> <tr id="t15:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- I propose we do both. Educate, and give a way for legal ways to get legal software. <a href="#t15:57" class="time">15:57</a> <tr id="t15:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| when it comes to drivers, if I understand correctly a lot of the problems comes from semi finished but otherwise free drivers that need reviewing and merging upstream. Could Fedora be helpful here as a source for reviews? <a href="#t15:57" class="time">15:57</a> <tr id="t15:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- we have the right to make the 'support terrorists' link as ugly and scary as possible. <a href="#t15:57" class="time">15:57</a> <tr id="t15:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Lovechild: it needs kernel reviewers, our kernel guys have a lot of work as it is, upstream is the better place for it. <a href="#t15:58" class="time">15:58</a> <tr id="t15:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| Lovechild, that's only part of the problem. take R350 ATI cards for example... there _is_ no half finished driver because ATI won't release specs <a href="#t15:58" class="time">15:58</a> <tr id="t15:58"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | smooge begins an GutenBurg2RPM <a href="#t15:58" class="time">15:58</a> <tr id="t15:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- starging this with mp3 is a good test case, extending this to more things needs to be discussed on a case by case basis. <a href="#t15:58" class="time">15:58</a> <tr id="t15:58"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| jwb: I say we support the terrorists.. they can blow up ATI for us <a href="#t15:58" class="time">15:58</a> <tr id="t15:58"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | jwb avoids calling it an "Axis of semi-evil" <a href="#t15:58" class="time">15:58</a> <tr id="t15:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- start with the gstreamer plugins, and use it as a test case. <a href="#t15:59" class="time">15:59</a> <tr id="t15:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| agreed <a href="#t15:59" class="time">15:59</a> <tr id="t16:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- If we're going to be doing this, I want to make sure that people have to pay for the mp3 codec. <a href="#t16:00" class="time">16:00</a> <tr id="t16:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- why? <a href="#t16:01" class="time">16:01</a> <tr id="t16:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- Because there is a cost associated with it. <a href="#t16:01" class="time">16:01</a> <tr id="t16:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- Fluendo paid that cost. <a href="#t16:01" class="time">16:01</a> <tr id="t16:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| fluendo' plugin is gratis for users <a href="#t16:01" class="time">16:01</a> <tr id="t16:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- People should be made aware that there _is_ a cost for the mp3 and that cost should be passed along to the people wanting to use the technology <a href="#t16:01" class="time">16:01</a> <tr id="t16:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Lovechild: fluendo HAD to pay for it, chris wants people who make use of mp3 understand this. <a href="#t16:02" class="time">16:02</a> <tr id="t16:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| ah.. <a href="#t16:02" class="time">16:02</a> <tr id="t16:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- I know that you can get it for free, however we want to charge users SOMETHING so that they understand that somebody HAD to pay for it. <a href="#t16:02" class="time">16:02</a> <tr id="t16:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| we have no control over that <a href="#t16:03" class="time">16:03</a> <tr id="t16:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- there should be no reason to incur the administrative overhead of charging $1 for user <a href="#t16:03" class="time">16:03</a> <tr id="t16:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| so now we're going to have a fedora paypal account? <a href="#t16:03" class="time">16:03</a> <tr id="t16:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| wtf? <a href="#t16:03" class="time">16:03</a> <tr id="t16:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- part of this deal is to get fluendo into this workflow and get their legal bits out to people. <a href="#t16:04" class="time">16:04</a> <tr id="t16:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- think of what we could do with the $1, suppor causes we actually care about. <a href="#t16:04" class="time">16:04</a> <tr id="t16:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| we should definintely talk to the Fluendo people before charging for their work.. they have the infrastructure to take money for this kind of thing <a href="#t16:04" class="time">16:04</a> <tr id="t16:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| think of the legal hassle that incurs <a href="#t16:04" class="time">16:04</a> <tr id="t16:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| blizzard -- I'm talking about having a token $1 amount that people have to pay as a symbol of being not free. <a href="#t16:04" class="time">16:04</a> <tr id="t16:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| pay to who? and what does that $1 go towards? <a href="#t16:05" class="time">16:05</a> <tr id="t16:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| dave -- we're confusing free and freedmon <a href="#t16:05" class="time">16:05</a> <tr id="t16:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jack -- $.50 goes to creative commons, $.50 goes to foo. <a href="#t16:05" class="time">16:05</a> <tr id="t16:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- if we have to take money in for this, we're done, and I dont' want to talk about it anymore. <a href="#t16:05" class="time">16:05</a> <tr id="t16:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- people can get it for free, and they will and avoid us all together. <a href="#t16:06" class="time">16:06</a> <tr id="t16:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- rabbit hole, lets step out. <a href="#t16:06" class="time">16:06</a> <tr id="t16:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- can we all agree that having a hook in say gstreamer to popup an education box to explain why you can't play that. <a href="#t16:07" class="time">16:07</a> <tr id="t16:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| general agreement. <a href="#t16:07" class="time">16:07</a> <tr id="t16:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| +1 <a href="#t16:07" class="time">16:07</a> <tr id="t16:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| and we go back down the rabbit hole of what to do from there :/ <a href="#t16:07" class="time">16:07</a> <tr id="t16:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| we're moving on, taking this back to the board for what to do after the educate window. <a href="#t16:09" class="time">16:09</a> <tr id="t16:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| and now we're moving on LiveCD after a short break. <a href="#t16:09" class="time">16:09</a> <tr id="t16:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Ok, we're coming back, LiveCD <a href="#t16:16" class="time">16:16</a> <tr id="t16:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- the question on LiveCD is, what specifically will it take to have the official Fedora LiveCD that we advertise with teh same voice as the rest of our releases <a href="#t16:16" class="time">16:16</a> <tr id="t16:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- either annoint what the Kadischi is doing, or we pay somebody to reimpliment the right way. <a href="#t16:17" class="time">16:17</a> <tr id="t16:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- pilgrim is large and ugly and a hack, but at least you can get it checked out. <a href="#t16:17" class="time">16:17</a> <tr id="t16:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- It's 400 lines of shell, its not extensable. Much like libtool <a href="#t16:17" class="time">16:17</a> <tr id="t16:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| *snickers* <a href="#t16:17" class="time">16:17</a> <tr id="t16:18"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | tibbs (Jason L Tibbitts III) [n=tibbs@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t16:18" class="time">16:18</a> <tr id="t16:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- is there any live CD that unity is hosting that we could bless as official? <a href="#t16:18" class="time">16:18</a> <tr id="t16:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| various answers of "we don't know because nobody around the table has tried it." <a href="#t16:18" class="time">16:18</a> <tr id="t16:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- A Fedora Unity CD built from kadischi has landed on the table, we're trying it. <a href="#t16:18" class="time">16:18</a> <tr id="t16:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| greg, all our live-spins as we call them only contain bits from Fedora Core and Extras <a href="#t16:19" class="time">16:19</a> <tr id="t16:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jesse -- the Kadischi stuff does not make any use of the stateless work we put into Core. <a href="#t16:19" class="time">16:19</a> <tr id="t16:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| greg, they are created using kadischi <a href="#t16:19" class="time">16:19</a> <tr id="t16:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- Our goal with LiveCD is the same as our goal with teh rest of the new world. When it's time to do a release, Fedora project puts out their cut of the LiveCD, and there are tools provided for the community to build different ones. <a href="#t16:20" class="time">16:20</a> <tr id="t16:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| LiveCDs would also be very useful for testing our point releases for people who like to see new stuff in action but don't want to install a potentially baby eating system. This might also catch more malconfigured systems <a href="#t16:21" class="time">16:21</a> <tr id="t16:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Lovechild: indeed <a href="#t16:21" class="time">16:21</a> <tr id="t16:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| Lovechild: we did do a liveCD for FC6T2 <a href="#t16:21" class="time">16:21</a> <tr id="t16:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- I like pilgrim because a downstream project uses it, OLPC <a href="#t16:22" class="time">16:22</a> <tr id="t16:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| BobJensen: I didn't see one on that official torrent site. But I honestly didn't look to hard <a href="#t16:22" class="time">16:22</a> <tr id="t16:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| Lovechild: Not official, done by unity for the communty <a href="#t16:22" class="time">16:22</a> <tr id="t16:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| in the ideal world it would be part of the release spinning process <a href="#t16:23" class="time">16:23</a> <tr id="t16:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- somebody technically competent cares about pligrim. Kadischi just languishes. <a href="#t16:23" class="time">16:23</a> <tr id="t16:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| personally, i agree with pilgrim integration into pungi <a href="#t16:24" class="time">16:24</a> <tr id="t16:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- I don't know what what is the right one to use, should we do a Pepsi challenge? <a href="#t16:24" class="time">16:24</a> <tr id="t16:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- hand waiving.... <a href="#t16:24" class="time">16:24</a> <tr id="t16:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| because it seems like a logical process to create a livecd when you roll you own cut of fedora <a href="#t16:24" class="time">16:24</a> <tr id="t16:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| greg, it is not for lack of trying, Jasper was doing a fair amount of work on Kadischi based on our input <a href="#t16:24" class="time">16:24</a> <tr id="t16:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- Is david interested in continuing forward with Pilgrim for the Fedora use case? <a href="#t16:24" class="time">16:24</a> <tr id="t16:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jonathan -- He was until he got pushed back on because A) it wasn't kadischi and B) because it didn't use anaconda. <a href="#t16:25" class="time">16:25</a> <tr id="t16:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- I had a long talk with David, he doesn't want to be in the business of maintaining these tools, he was very explicit. <a href="#t16:25" class="time">16:25</a> <tr id="t16:25"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| this seems like two dead ends. <a href="#t16:25" class="time">16:25</a> <tr id="t16:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- there needs to be some concerted resources around making the official LiveCD creation tool. <a href="#t16:26" class="time">16:26</a> <tr id="t16:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| f13: build it into pungi <a href="#t16:27" class="time">16:27</a> <tr id="t16:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| I am sure Jasper Hartline would love to get some support and feedback on how to improve Kadischi so that it can be "the tool" <a href="#t16:27" class="time">16:27</a> <tr id="t16:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jermey -- do we want t orewrite the way we build liveCDs every release <a href="#t16:27" class="time">16:27</a> <tr id="t16:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| ? <a href="#t16:27" class="time">16:27</a> <tr id="t16:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| since pungi is supposed to be used as the cookie cutter for everyone in the community, we should integrate everything for them in once centralized place <a href="#t16:27" class="time">16:27</a> <tr id="t16:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greendisease: agreed <a href="#t16:29" class="time">16:29</a> <tr id="t16:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg --pilgram is the only thing that produced a liveCD that I was able to use. Suggestion, kiss David's ass so that he's motivated to make it work for the next release. <a href="#t16:29" class="time">16:29</a> <tr id="t16:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| f13: so whats the problem with trying to integrate the same methodology which david used for pilgrim and integrating it? <a href="#t16:30" class="time">16:30</a> <tr id="t16:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- ask the Unitiy people wha tthey think when they try to use Pilgrim. <a href="#t16:30" class="time">16:30</a> <tr id="t16:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greendisease: it may not work for Fedora 7 already <a href="#t16:30" class="time">16:30</a> <tr id="t16:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| i didnt say integrate the actual code <a href="#t16:30" class="time">16:30</a> <tr id="t16:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| use the same conceptual method and translate the code to work properly <a href="#t16:30" class="time">16:30</a> <tr id="t16:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greendisease: because pungi does nothing more than call anaconda tools. <a href="#t16:30" class="time">16:30</a> <tr id="t16:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greendisease: there is very little heavy lifting in pungi itself, it just calls other things. <a href="#t16:31" class="time">16:31</a> <tr id="t16:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| okay, so why not integrate it into anaconda <a href="#t16:31" class="time">16:31</a> <tr id="t16:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| -ETIME <a href="#t16:31" class="time">16:31</a> <tr id="t16:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| anaconda is our uber-installer <a href="#t16:31" class="time">16:31</a> <tr id="t16:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| what changes is jeremy working on now for rhel anaconda? <a href="#t16:31" class="time">16:31</a> <tr id="t16:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| the people that understand anaconda code and would be able to work with anaconda to make a liveCD generator are very very small and busy. <a href="#t16:32" class="time">16:32</a> <tr id="t16:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| why didn't David use anaconda for the LiveCD? he didn't want to, he wanted to write his own. <a href="#t16:32" class="time">16:32</a> <tr id="t16:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| i didnt say make anaconda the livecd cutter <a href="#t16:32" class="time">16:32</a> <tr id="t16:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| i said include the functionality in there and have pungi use it <a href="#t16:32" class="time">16:32</a> <tr id="t16:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| exaqctly what bill just said <a href="#t16:33" class="time">16:33</a> <tr id="t16:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greendisease: indeed. The utility has to exist and be maintainable. <a href="#t16:33" class="time">16:33</a> <tr id="t16:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| What are the chances of the "mystery" behind spinning the releases becoming documented and public? <a href="#t16:34" class="time">16:34</a> <tr id="t16:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| BobJensen: can you define that a little bit? <a href="#t16:34" class="time">16:34</a> <tr id="t16:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| f13: When it was time for Fedora Unity to start creating "Re-Spins" we cold find no official documentation on how it should work, we had to seek out those of you who do it to get answers <a href="#t16:35" class="time">16:35</a> <tr id="t16:36"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | warren (Unknown) [n=warren@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t16:36" class="time">16:36</a> <tr id="t16:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| the goal of th emerger so to make it dead simple for anbydoy to make a Fedora release. <a href="#t16:36" class="time">16:36</a> <tr id="t16:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| BobJensen: +1 <a href="#t16:36" class="time">16:36</a> <tr id="t16:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| f13: the result was a cobbled together shell script that we are stillnot sure does it the "right way" <a href="#t16:36" class="time">16:36</a> <tr id="t16:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| nod <a href="#t16:36" class="time">16:36</a> <tr id="t16:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| we never did get any final feedback <a href="#t16:37" class="time">16:37</a> <tr id="t16:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| BobJensen: is anyone from unity willing to commit time to working with the anaconda/pungi team then to get this working? <a href="#t16:37" class="time">16:37</a> <tr id="t16:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| its more of a resources perspective <a href="#t16:37" class="time">16:37</a> <tr id="t16:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| err, not perspective, constraint <a href="#t16:37" class="time">16:37</a> <tr id="t16:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| greendisease: we have been here, the people know who we are, we are willing to help but no one has said a thing to us "personally" <a href="#t16:38" class="time">16:38</a> <tr id="t16:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| f13: please speak what BobJensen just said <a href="#t16:38" class="time">16:38</a> <tr id="t16:39"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | jmbuser (John Babich) [n=jmbuser@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t16:39" class="time">16:39</a> <tr id="t16:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| greendisease: some say "well it was announced, you should go to them" <a href="#t16:39" class="time">16:39</a> <tr id="t16:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #6ed16e">    mdomsch <td class="text" style="color: #6ed16e">| greg - whatever form it takes, it shouldn't *have* to be done by a RH employee <a href="#t16:39" class="time">16:39</a> <tr id="t16:41"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- I don't care how crappy it is, I care that there is a working LiveCD in people's hand. <a href="#t16:41" class="time">16:41</a> <tr id="t16:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- you put in a cd, it does stuff, you have a desktop <a href="#t16:42" class="time">16:42</a> <tr id="t16:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- you put in a install cd, it does stuff, yo uhave a desktop <a href="#t16:42" class="time">16:42</a> <tr id="t16:42"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | You're now known as thl_afk <a href="#t16:42" class="time">16:42</a> <tr id="t16:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- you cna say you want to do this work in a community, but communities only work after a certain point. We need somebody to get something wtarted, in teh right way, and growt he comunity aroudn THAT&gt; <a href="#t16:43" class="time">16:43</a> <tr id="t16:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| stupoid vpn is making my tylping bad. <a href="#t16:43" class="time">16:43</a> <tr id="t16:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| looks like we're going to table tihs until David Z can show up and talk about it. <a href="#t16:44" class="time">16:44</a> <tr id="t16:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| f13: thats just my bad influence <a href="#t16:44" class="time">16:44</a> <tr id="t16:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- pilgrim isn't that far off, we want to be sure that th epilgrim upstream is willing to make the changes we the Fedora project would like to see. <a href="#t16:45" class="time">16:45</a> <tr id="t16:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| And why not work with Kadischi? <a href="#t16:46" class="time">16:46</a> <tr id="t16:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| the codebase is a disaster. <a href="#t16:46" class="time">16:46</a> <tr id="t16:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| And yet no one will step forward to help fix it, mentor the guys who salvaged it from the refuse heap? <a href="#t16:47" class="time">16:47</a> <tr id="t16:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| -ENOTIME&gt; <a href="#t16:47" class="time">16:47</a> <tr id="t16:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| David wanted a live CD and wrote his own, and the liceCD folks pissed on iit. <a href="#t16:48" class="time">16:48</a> <tr id="t16:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| comments like that no matter how true, do not help any sort of wanting to work together <a href="#t16:49" class="time">16:49</a> <tr id="t16:51"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- Mail List Overload!! <a href="#t16:51" class="time">16:51</a> <tr id="t16:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| we're going to talk about mailing lists now. <a href="#t16:51" class="time">16:51</a> <tr id="t16:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- Identify the dead lists, kill them. <a href="#t16:51" class="time">16:51</a> <tr id="t16:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- having a page to list the actual useful Fedora lists and what they're used for is the way to go. <a href="#t16:52" class="time">16:52</a> <tr id="t16:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- it's a tedious one time task. <a href="#t16:52" class="time">16:52</a> <tr id="t16:52"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- I'm going to do it, and I'm going to do it in the open, but I'm going to do it. <a href="#t16:52" class="time">16:52</a> <tr id="t16:54"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit -- FUDCON! <a href="#t16:54" class="time">16:54</a> <tr id="t16:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| We don't know what days <a href="#t16:54" class="time">16:54</a> <tr id="t16:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| f13: ask who has final say as to who can create a list. We get lots of requests for them. <a href="#t16:54" class="time">16:54</a> <tr id="t16:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- we'd like to actually accomplish something, lots of computers, lots of smart people, lots of food/beer, make something happen. <a href="#t16:54" class="time">16:54</a> <tr id="t16:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| mmcgrath: the Fedora Board? <a href="#t16:54" class="time">16:54</a> <tr id="t16:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| mmcgrath: Max for now. <a href="#t16:54" class="time">16:54</a> <tr id="t16:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- Do we have options for places? <a href="#t16:54" class="time">16:54</a> <tr id="t16:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| K, I'll just send them to max. Typically I say "Send a solid project plan and details for why you need a maillist" and then I never hear from them again ;D <a href="#t16:55" class="time">16:55</a> <tr id="t16:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| people -- Boston is a good location, as transportation issues are easy to solve. <a href="#t16:55" class="time">16:55</a> <tr id="t16:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| mmcgrath: hehe, you can continue doing that too! <a href="#t16:55" class="time">16:55</a> <tr id="t16:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| we're tlaking about actually paying to fly people in for a fudcon <a href="#t16:56" class="time">16:56</a> <tr id="t16:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| and put them up. <a href="#t16:56" class="time">16:56</a> <tr id="t16:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- Do we need the User part of FUDCON anymore? With the ambassadors project going so well? <a href="#t16:57" class="time">16:57</a> <tr id="t16:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- Sat/Sun/Mon works much better for people who need to take time off work. <a href="#t16:57" class="time">16:57</a> <tr id="t16:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- If we have to move dates/venues to accomplish what we want, this is fine. <a href="#t16:57" class="time">16:57</a> <tr id="t16:58"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mmcgrath is planning on attending this year. <a href="#t16:58" class="time">16:58</a> <tr id="t16:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| err the next one, whatever. <a href="#t16:59" class="time">16:59</a> <tr id="t16:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| so what is it we'd like to accomplish with this pile of brain power? <a href="#t16:59" class="time">16:59</a> <tr id="t16:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| feb/mar/april are the sort of target months <a href="#t16:59" class="time">16:59</a> <tr id="t16:59"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | You're now known as thl <a href="#t16:59" class="time">16:59</a> <tr id="t17:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| is FUDCON going to be in boston again? <a href="#t17:00" class="time">17:00</a> <tr id="t17:00"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | dgilmore would like to go to fudcon <a href="#t17:00" class="time">17:00</a> <tr id="t17:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jwb: possibly <a href="#t17:00" class="time">17:00</a> <tr id="t17:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| bummer <a href="#t17:00" class="time">17:00</a> <tr id="t17:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| One goal is to have Fedora done by the Red Hat summit, which means mid-april Fedora release. <a href="#t17:00" class="time">17:00</a> <tr id="t17:00"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jwb: we're talking about acutally paying to get people out here. <a href="#t17:00" class="time">17:00</a> <tr id="t17:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #488888">  Lovechild <td class="text" style="color: #488888">| why am I suddenly tempted to book plane tickets across the atlantic <a href="#t17:01" class="time">17:01</a> <tr id="t17:04"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | corbet (unknown) [n=user@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t17:04" class="time">17:04</a> <tr id="t17:05"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | BobJensen has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t17:05" class="time">17:05</a> <tr id="t17:06"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | glezos (Dimitris Glezos) [n=glezos@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t17:06" class="time">17:06</a> <tr id="t17:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| f13: what sort of people would we fly to FUDCON? Alan Cox type people? <a href="#t17:07" class="time">17:07</a> <tr id="t17:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| dgilmore: not sure, depends on what we want to accomplish. If we're going to do a review fest, maybe a few pretty good community reviewers <a href="#t17:09" class="time">17:09</a> <tr id="t17:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| if it's going to be a bug fix, maybe some good engineers from the community. <a href="#t17:09" class="time">17:09</a> <tr id="t17:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| :) cool makes sense <a href="#t17:09" class="time">17:09</a>  <tr id="t17:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">         f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| listing out bad dates for RH <a href="#t17:10" class="time">17:10</a>  <tr id="t17:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">         f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| LCA - Jan 15-19 <a href="#t17:10" class="time">17:10</a>  <tr id="t17:14"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">         f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| looking at first weekend of Feb.  Greg owns making it happen. <a href="#t17:14" class="time">17:14</a>  <tr id="t17:19"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | BobJensen (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) [n=BobJense@removed]  has joined #Fedora-Summit  <a href="#t17:19" class="time">17:19</a> <tr id="t17:21"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: The Red Hat Summit <a href="#t17:21" class="time">17:21</a> <tr id="t17:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- Our Fedora representation at th enext summit was poor. <a href="#t17:21" class="time">17:21</a> <tr id="t17:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- we want to have Fedora Cds for every attendee <a href="#t17:21" class="time">17:21</a> <tr id="t17:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- the Fedora talks were few, and were dictated as to what we could talk about. <a href="#t17:21" class="time">17:21</a> <tr id="t17:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- max wants to be teh final say about the Fedor topics, and we want to fly people from teh community in to talk about how they use Fedora (like BobJensen) <a href="#t17:22" class="time">17:22</a> <tr id="t17:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- the Fedora folks need to be more organized <a href="#t17:23" class="time">17:23</a> <tr id="t17:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| then you need a job req for a cat herder <a href="#t17:23" class="time">17:23</a> <tr id="t17:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- tried to get more conversation than talking head, but it didn't work so well this year. <a href="#t17:23" class="time">17:23</a> <tr id="t17:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| i am the cat herder <a href="#t17:23" class="time">17:23</a> <tr id="t17:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- for some reason there was not much feedback from the attendees during the talks <a href="#t17:24" class="time">17:24</a> <tr id="t17:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| f13: tell max i am willing to take responsibility for helping him with summit stuff <a href="#t17:24" class="time">17:24</a> <tr id="t17:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| and orgainzing our marketing plan for the summit <a href="#t17:24" class="time">17:24</a> <tr id="t17:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #4b904b">@greendiseas <td class="text" style="color: #4b904b">| i AM good at these things <a href="#t17:24" class="time">17:24</a> <tr id="t17:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| we need to figure out what we're trying to achieve at the summit, given that your average Fedora user isn't going to pony $700 to go to the Red hat summit <a href="#t17:26" class="time">17:26</a> <tr id="t17:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| find out what the users really want to see go into FC8? heh <a href="#t17:27" class="time">17:27</a> <tr id="t17:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| wwoods: Red hat users? <a href="#t17:27" class="time">17:27</a> <tr id="t17:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| strike that <a href="#t17:28" class="time">17:28</a> <tr id="t17:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| reading comprehension failure: -ENOTENOUGHCOFFEE <a href="#t17:28" class="time">17:28</a> <tr id="t17:28"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: Planning releases  <a href="#t17:28" class="time">17:28</a> <tr id="t17:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| billl -- we do this poorly <a href="#t17:29" class="time">17:29</a> <tr id="t17:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- we hav ea RH manager in the room, and he is going to go on about this. <a href="#t17:29" class="time">17:29</a> <tr id="t17:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| flags are bad mmm-key? <a href="#t17:29" class="time">17:29</a> <tr id="t17:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Jonathan -- Sit ina  room and talk for a while, get input from teams <a href="#t17:29" class="time">17:29</a> <tr id="t17:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| flags? <a href="#t17:30" class="time">17:30</a> <tr id="t17:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- where is the output? <a href="#t17:30" class="time">17:30</a> <tr id="t17:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jonathan -- nothing is written down. <a href="#t17:30" class="time">17:30</a> <tr id="t17:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jwb: you don't want to know. <a href="#t17:30" class="time">17:30</a> <tr id="t17:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- throws something at jonathan. <a href="#t17:30" class="time">17:30</a> <tr id="t17:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jrb -- how this should work; What are our biggest concerns, and whta do we want to look at? comes from teams and manager best judgement <a href="#t17:30" class="time">17:30</a> <tr id="t17:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jrb -- go to the community with this for input. <a href="#t17:31" class="time">17:31</a> <tr id="t17:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- writing on the board.... <a href="#t17:31" class="time">17:31</a> <tr id="t17:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- Step 1: document a. long. list. of. crap. <a href="#t17:31" class="time">17:31</a> <tr id="t17:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- jrb, pete grainer, sigs do this. <a href="#t17:32" class="time">17:32</a> <tr id="t17:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- take the big long list, take what we can expose, and merge it with the community lists <a href="#t17:32" class="time">17:32</a> <tr id="t17:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jrb -- what are we trying to solve? <a href="#t17:32" class="time">17:32</a> <tr id="t17:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Increasing transparency! <a href="#t17:33" class="time">17:33</a> <tr id="t17:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- increasing transpareny and allow the community to have input <a href="#t17:33" class="time">17:33</a> <tr id="t17:34"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | craigt has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t17:34" class="time">17:34</a> <tr id="t17:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jrb -- one problem is many masters. Needs for RHEL, things for Fedora, things for upstream, things for "other products"(OLPC) <a href="#t17:35" class="time">17:35</a> <tr id="t17:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jrb -- it easy to say "we want to put resources behind certian things" but may not be easy to say why <a href="#t17:36" class="time">17:36</a> <tr id="t17:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| could we have SIG leaders  that say these should be our games, Gnome, KDE, etc  and we then merge them together to make a big pretty picture? <a href="#t17:36" class="time">17:36</a> <tr id="t17:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jrb -- it is easier to engage the upstream projects rather than to engage Fedora. <a href="#t17:37" class="time">17:37</a> <tr id="t17:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- we have two kinds of roadmaps. What goes into Fedora, based on upstream, forecasting. <a href="#t17:38" class="time">17:38</a> <tr id="t17:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| sure it is. but things like the versions/ quantity etc of games  we put in probably best to come from Games SIG <a href="#t17:39" class="time">17:39</a> <tr id="t17:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| Gnome KDE updtream release is perfect <a href="#t17:39" class="time">17:39</a> <tr id="t17:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- second type is what goes AROUND Fedora, packaging, layout, new packages, compose lists, etc... <a href="#t17:40" class="time">17:40</a> <tr id="t17:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- second part is where we need a concrete roadmap, as "what is important to Fedora 7 roadmap" <a href="#t17:40" class="time">17:40</a> <tr id="t17:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- where we have a big problem now, it's nearly impossible to get anything from the community wishlist into the rh engineering managers, and drive it. <a href="#t17:42" class="time">17:42</a> <tr id="t17:42"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | craigt (Craig Thomas) [n=ct@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t17:42" class="time">17:42</a> <tr id="t17:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- we need to start having that conversation. <a href="#t17:42" class="time">17:42</a> <tr id="t17:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- gather what community wants, then shop it around engineering and engineering managers <a href="#t17:42" class="time">17:42</a> <tr id="t17:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| max -- thats my responsibility <a href="#t17:42" class="time">17:42</a> <tr id="t17:42"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jrb -- this time around is very much Fedora specific <a href="#t17:42" class="time">17:42</a> <tr id="t17:43"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| the community wants everything <a href="#t17:43" class="time">17:43</a> <tr id="t17:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| including a pony <a href="#t17:44" class="time">17:44</a> <tr id="t17:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| you need a pepsi challenge or something similar to even begin to narrow the most popular items down <a href="#t17:44" class="time">17:44</a> <tr id="t17:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| BobJensen: DENIED, lack of budget <a href="#t17:44" class="time">17:44</a> <tr id="t17:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| lol <a href="#t17:44" class="time">17:44</a> <tr id="t17:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz just showed up. <a href="#t17:45" class="time">17:45</a> <tr id="t17:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Sigs are very important to our roadmaps as they will own sections of our package base. <a href="#t17:45" class="time">17:45</a> <tr id="t17:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Games being one of them. <a href="#t17:45" class="time">17:45</a> <tr id="t17:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| warren -- even if the info isn't perfect, we need to get it out and viewable. <a href="#t17:46" class="time">17:46</a> <tr id="t17:46"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | BobJensen ponders a ham radio SIG <a href="#t17:46" class="time">17:46</a> <tr id="t17:46"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | mmcgrath would be interested in an embedded SIG (XBOX, my toaster, etc) <a href="#t17:46" class="time">17:46</a> <tr id="t17:46"><th class="nick" style="background: #65c1c1">     wwoods <td class="text" style="color: #65c1c1">| a HAM SIG? There's almost a PIG SIG joke in there somewhere <a href="#t17:46" class="time">17:46</a> <tr id="t17:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jeremy -- Fedora needs to do better outreach into parts of Red Hat engineering. <a href="#t17:47" class="time">17:47</a> <tr id="t17:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| mmcgrath: i stole your toaster <a href="#t17:47" class="time">17:47</a> <tr id="t17:47"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| the vxworks on it was nasty :D <a href="#t17:47" class="time">17:47</a> <tr id="t17:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| warren -- We need to get it out there and viewable. It must be aggregated and organized in a single place. It is important for people to see a roadmap. It is especially important for *ACCURATE* media understanding and reporting. <a href="#t17:48" class="time">17:48</a> <tr id="t17:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">   dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| It is very hard as an outsider to know how to reach into RH enginering <a href="#t17:48" class="time">17:48</a> <tr id="t17:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| Its a delicate balance between a RH sponsored project and a fully community operated project. <a href="#t17:48" class="time">17:48</a> <tr id="t17:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| mmcgrath, that might be part of the issue, but I really don't think we are *DOING* anything wrong. What we were failing was 1) outreach to the community to do it better 2) communicating about all this. <a href="#t17:50" class="time">17:50</a> <tr id="t17:50"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | smooge ponders a SPAM SIG <a href="#t17:50" class="time">17:50</a> <tr id="t17:50"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| smooge, canned meat? <a href="#t17:50" class="time">17:50</a> <tr id="t17:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| ok, got action items, snapping a shot of the whiteboard. <a href="#t17:51" class="time">17:51</a> <tr id="t17:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #dc74dc">   mmcgrath <td class="text" style="color: #dc74dc">| Yeah, its an interesting situation to be in. It doesn't help that people think that RH has some sort of alterior motive, honestly I thought the same thing till I got involved. <a href="#t17:51" class="time">17:51</a> <tr id="t17:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| taking a break, returning to LiveCDs <a href="#t17:51" class="time">17:51</a> <tr id="t17:51"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| how to build Fedora SPAM checking tools <a href="#t17:51" class="time">17:51</a> <tr id="t17:52"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: LiveCD! Take 2 <a href="#t17:52" class="time">17:52</a> <tr id="t17:52"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | dgilmore was very confused when RHL was canned. <a href="#t17:52" class="time">17:52</a> <tr id="t17:53"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | dgilmore now loves fedora  <a href="#t17:53" class="time">17:53</a> <tr id="t17:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| Has anyone successfully built and run an FC6 livecd with pilgrim? <a href="#t17:53" class="time">17:53</a> <tr id="t17:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| abadger1999: I tried looking for information for Fedora Unity so we could try it out and could not locate it so we went with Kadischi <a href="#t17:55" class="time">17:55</a> <tr id="t17:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| BobJensen: I evaluated both and got kadischi to work but pilgrim built a livecd that wouldn't get through the boot process. I was wondering if it was a Rawhide issue or pilgrim issue. <a href="#t17:56" class="time">17:56</a> <tr id="t17:56"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| abadger1999: yes, jrb did. <a href="#t17:56" class="time">17:56</a> <tr id="t17:57"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | daMaestro (Jon) [n=jon@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t17:57" class="time">17:57</a> <tr id="t17:57"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| f13: Thanks. <a href="#t17:57" class="time">17:57</a> <tr id="t17:59"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">   mspevack <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">| abadger1999: and gdk <a href="#t17:59" class="time">17:59</a> <tr id="t18:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| joining again. <a href="#t18:01" class="time">18:01</a> <tr id="t18:01"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz will be talking for 5 minutes, I'm not going to type it all though. <a href="#t18:01" class="time">18:01</a> <tr id="t18:02"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | autopsy (J. Hartline) [n=Jasper@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t18:02" class="time">18:02</a> <tr id="t18:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- I did a live CD because its neat and similar to OLPC <a href="#t18:02" class="time">18:02</a> <tr id="t18:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| f13: I asked jasper Hartline from Kadischi to join us <a href="#t18:02" class="time">18:02</a> <tr id="t18:02"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- OLPC takes packages from yum, drops in a chroot, and makes images. <a href="#t18:02" class="time">18:02</a> <tr id="t18:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #6ed16e">    mdomsch <td class="text" style="color: #6ed16e">| I'm out for a while, enjoy1 <a href="#t18:03" class="time">18:03</a> <tr id="t18:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #6ed16e">    mdomsch <td class="text" style="color: #6ed16e">| ! <a href="#t18:03" class="time">18:03</a> <tr id="t18:03"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | mdomsch has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t18:03" class="time">18:03</a> <tr id="t18:03"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- the tools to make the olpc images became Pilgrim <a href="#t18:03" class="time">18:03</a> <tr id="t18:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- It's mostly(all?) shell scripts. Needed to clean it up for OLPC as david came back to desktop group. Discovered that it is very close to a LiveCD <a href="#t18:04" class="time">18:04</a> <tr id="t18:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- saw the community needed a working LiveCD and Fedora as a project wasn't doing much on that front, so started on a feature set for a LiveCd based on Pilgrim <a href="#t18:04" class="time">18:04</a> <tr id="t18:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- RW filesystem, selinux, "be the same", be installable. <a href="#t18:05" class="time">18:05</a> <tr id="t18:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- reasons for installable: using Fedora wasn't easy, too many CDs. Having a single CD for both live and install is easy. <a href="#t18:05" class="time">18:05</a> <tr id="t18:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- spent a weekend writing it, showed it to blizzard, blizzard said Hey go announce it! davidz wasn't so sure, blizzard ratted him out to the Fedora advisory board. <a href="#t18:06" class="time">18:06</a> <tr id="t18:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| now it's public knowledge <a href="#t18:06" class="time">18:06</a> <tr id="t18:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- my liveCD meets my requirements. <a href="#t18:06" class="time">18:06</a> <tr id="t18:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- it worked, kadischi didn't. <a href="#t18:06" class="time">18:06</a> <tr id="t18:06"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | twunder is away: Lunch <a href="#t18:06" class="time">18:06</a> <tr id="t18:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- most feature sets are both olpc/Fedora. <a href="#t18:07" class="time">18:07</a> <tr id="t18:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- I wanted to enable changing it by just adjusting a few lines. <a href="#t18:07" class="time">18:07</a> <tr id="t18:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- ran into some issues w/ yum/rpm but worked through them. <a href="#t18:08" class="time">18:08</a> <tr id="t18:08"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- I wrote a big README when I dumped the code on the mailing list(s) <a href="#t18:08" class="time">18:08</a> <tr id="t18:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- let me to think about other groups, say eclipse, would be able to easily build an eclipse live CD from this tool, not caring what the base is, just that it runs a reasonable eclipse. <a href="#t18:10" class="time">18:10</a> <tr id="t18:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- what worked / didn't work. Technology worked, built a live CD. Got a lot of feedback, like two different ways/methods for building and installing a distro. solve problems 2x places. <a href="#t18:11" class="time">18:11</a> <tr id="t18:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| gdk -- what do we do to make this the official LiveCD for Fedora? <a href="#t18:11" class="time">18:11</a> <tr id="t18:12"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- Lots of confusion within the fedora project about what to do? Put it in the release notes, not.. ? <a href="#t18:12" class="time">18:12</a> <tr id="t18:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- its a huge investment in time to say 'you're going to make LiveCDs' <a href="#t18:13" class="time">18:13</a> <tr id="t18:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| LOL <a href="#t18:13" class="time">18:13</a> <tr id="t18:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- it should be just a part of our release process. If it is such, it needs to use the same tools. <a href="#t18:13" class="time">18:13</a> <tr id="t18:13"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | BobJensen knows all about that investment <a href="#t18:13" class="time">18:13</a> <tr id="t18:15"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | graveyard (Ruben Kerkhof) [n=graveyar@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t18:15" class="time">18:15</a> <tr id="t18:15"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">     glezos <td class="text" style="color: #42427e">| and even worse.. it makes sense a downloadable Live CD to be up-to-date.. <a href="#t18:15" class="time">18:15</a> <tr id="t18:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| glezos: and that is exactly what UNity is doing with Kadischi <a href="#t18:16" class="time">18:16</a> <tr id="t18:16"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">     glezos <td class="text" style="color: #42427e">| yup. <a href="#t18:16" class="time">18:16</a> <tr id="t18:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| glezos: just annoying to me to hear things said the way they are, as if kadischi is dead and buried. <a href="#t18:17" class="time">18:17</a> <tr id="t18:17"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| glezos: we have proved that it does and can work, several thousand downloads can't be wrong <a href="#t18:17" class="time">18:17</a> <tr id="t18:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #c8c869">    skvidal <td class="text" style="color: #c8c869">| BobJensen: umm <a href="#t18:18" class="time">18:18</a> <tr id="t18:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #c8c869">    skvidal <td class="text" style="color: #c8c869">| that statement is horribly incorrect <a href="#t18:18" class="time">18:18</a> <tr id="t18:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #c8c869">    skvidal <td class="text" style="color: #c8c869">| several thousand downloads can certainly be wrong <a href="#t18:18" class="time">18:18</a> <tr id="t18:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| jesse -- Are you (davidz) willing to maintain an upstream for Pilgrim so that things like pungi can make use of it t oproduce liveCDs and other people can use pungi to make liveCDs <a href="#t18:18" class="time">18:18</a> <tr id="t18:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #c8c869">    skvidal <td class="text" style="color: #c8c869">| for evidence of this: see gentoo <a href="#t18:18" class="time">18:18</a> <tr id="t18:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #c8c869">    skvidal <td class="text" style="color: #c8c869">| :) <a href="#t18:18" class="time">18:18</a>  <tr id="t18:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #d570d5">     autopsy <td class="text" style="color: #d570d5">| If the Fedora Project doesn't mind, as long as they allow it, I will take the current Kadischi codebase and give it a new home, and continue to maintain it if Fedora Core decides to drop it from thier CVS development tree. <a href="#t18:18" class="time">18:18</a>  <tr id="t18:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #c8c869">     skvidal <td class="text" style="color: #c8c869">| I think unity is great, however :) <a href="#t18:18" class="time">18:18</a> <tr id="t18:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| skvidal: ;^) <a href="#t18:19" class="time">18:19</a>  <tr id="t18:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">         f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| autopsy: how useful will that be if all of the engineering effort that is paid to work on Fedora is working on pilgrim, and things like pungi use pilgrim? <a href="#t18:19" class="time">18:19</a>  <tr id="t18:19"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | f13 thinks Unity is great too.  and Live CDs are great.  how we get to LiveCDs is the question.  <a href="#t18:19" class="time">18:19</a>  <tr id="t18:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| BobJensen: I agree with the far from dead part. <a href="#t18:19" class="time">18:19</a>  <tr id="t18:20"><th class="nick" style="background: #d570d5">     autopsy <td class="text" style="color: #d570d5">| I'm just saying, if Fedora Project decides to relinquish control over the current codebase of Kadischi as I read in the CLA which dictates an ownership, I will be glad to take it over. <a href="#t18:20" class="time">18:20</a> <tr id="t18:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #d570d5">    autopsy <td class="text" style="color: #d570d5">| It isn't useful to anyone but me and anyone who uses Kadischi. <a href="#t18:21" class="time">18:21</a> <tr id="t18:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- we don't control the codebase <a href="#t18:21" class="time">18:21</a> <tr id="t18:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| bill -- you need to sign CLA to get access to it <a href="#t18:21" class="time">18:21</a> <tr id="t18:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- if we want to split it out and put it somewhere else (no CLA) we can do that. <a href="#t18:22" class="time">18:22</a> <tr id="t18:22"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| greg -- maybe moving it external will get more involvement, but the Fedora team may take pilgrim on. <a href="#t18:22" class="time">18:22</a> <tr id="t18:23"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| I still think it would be good for some effort to be put toward Kadischi, making it viable before it be "turned loose" <a href="#t18:23" class="time">18:23</a> <tr id="t18:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| f13: If pungi already uses anaconda, one of the main drawback of kadischi (anaconda requirement) is moot. <a href="#t18:24" class="time">18:24</a> <tr id="t18:24"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| BobJensen: the issue is we'r emuch closer to something we'er happy with in pilgrim, rather than kadischi <a href="#t18:24" class="time">18:24</a> <tr id="t18:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| thtas not the drawback <a href="#t18:26" class="time">18:26</a> <tr id="t18:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| abadger1999: talk to jeremy about the drawbacks regarding kadischi <a href="#t18:26" class="time">18:26</a> <tr id="t18:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| Oh I know there are other drawbacks :-) <a href="#t18:27" class="time">18:27</a> <tr id="t18:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| But anaconda has been the one that has caused me the most personal grief. <a href="#t18:27" class="time">18:27</a>  <tr id="t18:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">   BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| Does anyone have a link to this pilgram code so we can take a look at it? <a href="#t18:28" class="time">18:28</a>  <tr id="t18:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| Do you have git installed? <a href="#t18:29" class="time">18:29</a>  <tr id="t18:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">   BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| Like I said we looked and found nothing <a href="#t18:29" class="time">18:29</a> <tr id="t18:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| I can tar it up if not. <a href="#t18:29" class="time">18:29</a> <tr id="t18:29"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | BobJensen [n=BobJense@removed] has left #Fedora-Summit ( "Leaving")  <a href="#t18:29" class="time">18:29</a> <tr id="t18:29"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | BobJensen (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) [n=BobJense@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t18:29" class="time">18:29</a> <tr id="t18:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| sorry about that <a href="#t18:29" class="time">18:29</a> <tr id="t18:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| BobJensen: <a href="http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/david/pilgrim.git;a=blob_plain;h=aa64cfda24576f3cb81b2ab99b2aae0fb0a2b8ae;f=README.fedora">http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/david/pilgrim.git;a=blob_plain;h=aa64cfda24576f3cb81b2ab99b2aae0fb0a2b8ae;f=README.fedora</a> <a href="#t18:29" class="time">18:29</a> <tr id="t18:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| f13: thanks <a href="#t18:30" class="time">18:30</a> <tr id="t18:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #d570d5">    autopsy <td class="text" style="color: #d570d5">| abadger1999, either way, I would like to see it too, tarball or git, is there somewhere we can retrieve pilgrim to look at it? <a href="#t18:30" class="time">18:30</a> <tr id="t18:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #d570d5">    autopsy <td class="text" style="color: #d570d5">| oop, nevermind. <a href="#t18:30" class="time">18:30</a> <tr id="t18:30"><th class="nick" style="background: #b2b25e"> abadger1999 <td class="text" style="color: #b2b25e">| One of pilgrim's drabacks is speed. <a href="#t18:30" class="time">18:30</a> <tr id="t18:31"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| <a href="http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/david/pilgrim.git">http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=users/david/pilgrim.git</a> being the actual git repo <a href="#t18:31" class="time">18:31</a> <tr id="t18:32"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| davidz -- sit down with technical leaders and come up with a roadmap for the liveCD itself, and figure out ways to get liveCD creation integrtaed into our release process <a href="#t18:32" class="time">18:32</a> <tr id="t18:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| And please document and share the processes with the community so the community does not waste it's time reinventing the wheel <a href="#t18:33" class="time">18:33</a> <tr id="t18:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| BobJensen: it will happen IN the community <a href="#t18:34" class="time">18:34</a> <tr id="t18:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| on public mailing lists, or maybe at FUDCon <a href="#t18:34" class="time">18:34</a> <tr id="t18:34"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| BobJensen: so.... <a href="#t18:34" class="time">18:34</a> <tr id="t18:35"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| BobJensen: are you interested in producing betas and a final official Live CD for FC6 based on pligrim? If we give you some support in using pilgrim. <a href="#t18:35" class="time">18:35</a> <tr id="t18:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| we'd like to get the liveCD by thanksgiving. <a href="#t18:36" class="time">18:36</a> <tr id="t18:36"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| f13: yes, the community wants and needs Live Media <a href="#t18:36" class="time">18:36</a> <tr id="t18:37"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| BobJensen: can you email davidz@redhat.com to get this rolling? Davidz is(was?) on the liveCD list too, perhaps just taking over the list and discussing pilgrim there will be best. <a href="#t18:37" class="time">18:37</a> <tr id="t18:37"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | smooge has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <a href="#t18:37" class="time">18:37</a> <tr id="t18:38"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| Fedora Unity is not opposed to using any Free tools to make what we do, we had access to Kadischi and knew Jasper so that is the way we went <a href="#t18:38" class="time">18:38</a> <tr id="t18:39"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| f13: I will email davidz this week <a href="#t18:39" class="time">18:39</a> <tr id="t18:41"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | smooge_ (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t18:41" class="time">18:41</a> <tr id="t18:41"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | smooge_ has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") <a href="#t18:41" class="time">18:41</a> <tr id="t18:43"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t18:43" class="time">18:43</a> <tr id="t18:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #6464bf">     warren <td class="text" style="color: #6464bf">| Decision: everyone going on fedora-livecd-list to continue discussion <a href="#t18:44" class="time">18:44</a> <tr id="t18:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| Ok, LiveCD beat into the ground. <a href="#t18:44" class="time">18:44</a> <tr id="t18:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| thinking about what to talk about... <a href="#t18:45" class="time">18:45</a> <tr id="t18:46"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | |DrJef| (spacious... he's so) [n=jefrey@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t18:46" class="time">18:46</a> <tr id="t18:49"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | mspevack has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t18:49" class="time">18:49</a> <tr id="t18:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #71d7d7">  daMaestro <td class="text" style="color: #71d7d7">| I have a question. Is the Fedora Project (proper) still interested in trying out Plone for the front page of fedoraproject.org and fedora.redhat.com? I have been giving access to a test Xen machine to get things setup and would like to know if it is just going to be a waste of my time. <a href="#t18:53" class="time">18:53</a> <tr id="t18:53"><th class="nick" style="background: #71d7d7">  daMaestro <td class="text" style="color: #71d7d7">| s/giving/given/ <a href="#t18:53" class="time">18:53</a> <tr id="t18:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">        f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| daMaestro: talk to max. <a href="#t18:55" class="time">18:55</a> <tr id="t18:55"><th class="nick" style="background: #71d7d7">  daMaestro <td class="text" style="color: #71d7d7">| f13, ok. <a href="#t18:55" class="time">18:55</a> <tr id="t18:57"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | nman64 (Patrick W. Barnes) [n=n-man@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t18:57" class="time">18:57</a> <tr id="t19:02"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | warren has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t19:02" class="time">19:02</a> <tr id="t19:03"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | smooge has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") <a href="#t19:03" class="time">19:03</a> <tr id="t19:04"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | rdieter1 has quit ("Konversation terminated!") <a href="#t19:04" class="time">19:04</a> <tr id="t19:04"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | twunder is back <a href="#t19:04" class="time">19:04</a> <tr id="t19:04"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">     glezos <td class="text" style="color: #42427e">| daMaestro, the Docs project eagerly awaits the Plone infrastructure to get built. <a href="#t19:04" class="time">19:04</a> <tr id="t19:05"><th class="nick" style="background: #71d7d7">  daMaestro <td class="text" style="color: #71d7d7">| glezos, Plone and Zope now have no maintainer. I can't even do an install from Extras at this point. <a href="#t19:05" class="time">19:05</a> <tr id="t19:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #71d7d7">  daMaestro <td class="text" style="color: #71d7d7">| glezos, Also, I need to get some Pluggable Authentication Service (PAS) bits packaged up so we can tie it in with the new Accounts System. <a href="#t19:06" class="time">19:06</a> <tr id="t19:06"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">     glezos <td class="text" style="color: #42427e">| daMaestro, go for it! :) <a href="#t19:06" class="time">19:06</a> <tr id="t19:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #71d7d7">   daMaestro <td class="text" style="color: #71d7d7">| glezos, nman64 is working with me to get setup. I also need to know if any add-on products are expected to be used as they will also need to be packaged and added to Extras. <a href="http://plone.org/products">http://plone.org/products</a> <a href="#t19:07" class="time">19:07</a>  <tr id="t19:07"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">      glezos <td class="text" style="color: #42427e">| daMaestro, if I understood correctly, yesterday a conversation was made for giving more emphasis on the Websites aspect. Probably hire someone to coordinate things etc. Take a look at the IRC log. <a href="#t19:07" class="time">19:07</a>  <tr id="t19:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">      glezos <td class="text" style="color: #42427e">| daMaestro, I guess you are the person and the Infrastructure is the team (and probably the IRC channel, or maybe #fedora-websites) to decide for these things. :) <a href="#t19:09" class="time">19:09</a> <tr id="t19:09"><th class="nick" style="background: #71d7d7">   daMaestro <td class="text" style="color: #71d7d7">| glezos, The Fedora Unity Project has learned a lot about skinning plone ( BobJensen and I hacked it up for a while ) and we can now break out of the standard plone look. <a href="http://fedoraunity.org/">http://fedoraunity.org/</a> <a href="#t19:09" class="time">19:09</a>  <tr id="t19:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">      glezos <td class="text" style="color: #42427e">| daMaestro, great, these are good news. Keep up the good work. I think we should probably move this discussion to #fedora-websites or the infrastructure mailing list. <a href="#t19:10" class="time">19:10</a>  <tr id="t19:10"><th class="nick" style="background: #71d7d7">   daMaestro <td class="text" style="color: #71d7d7">| glezos, Will do. I have been very busy lately catching up on things that have been put off for a while. <a href="#t19:10" class="time">19:10</a> <tr id="t19:13"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | smooge (Stephen J Smoogen) [n=smooge@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t19:13" class="time">19:13</a> <tr id="t19:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #42427e">     glezos <td class="text" style="color: #42427e">| daMaestro, OK. Many Fedora sub-projects are looking forward to seeing the Plone site coming up. Especially Docs. So keep up the good work, and talk with the other people in the groups for help and support. :) <a href="#t19:13" class="time">19:13</a> <tr id="t19:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #4d4d93">       quaid <td class="text" style="color: #4d4d93">| +1 <a href="#t19:13" class="time">19:13</a>  <tr id="t19:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #b45fb4">     |DrJef| <td class="text" style="color: #b45fb4">| does max read comments to his blog? <a href="#t19:18" class="time">19:18</a>  <tr id="t19:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #b45fb4">     |DrJef| <td class="text" style="color: #b45fb4">| <a href="http://spevack.livejournal.com/4170.html?thread=2378#t2378">http://spevack.livejournal.com/4170.html?thread=2378#t2378</a> <a href="#t19:18" class="time">19:18</a>  <tr id="t19:18"><th class="nick" style="background: #b45fb4">     |DrJef| <td class="text" style="color: #b45fb4">| here is my semi-annual pimping of the volunteer management handbook document to fedora leadership <a href="#t19:18" class="time">19:18</a> <tr id="t19:19"><th class="nick" style="background: #b45fb4">    |DrJef| <td class="text" style="color: #b45fb4">| if you havent read the first 18 pages... read them <a href="#t19:19" class="time">19:19</a> <tr id="t19:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">-- | Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net &lt;- <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">irc.freenode.net quits: f13, ajax, dgilmore <a href="#t19:26" class="time">19:26</a> <tr id="t19:26"><td class="other" colspan="2">--&gt; | Netsplit Over - Joins: f13, ajax <a href="#t19:26" class="time">19:26</a> <tr id="t19:26"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t19:26" class="time">19:26</a> <tr id="t19:27"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | daMaestro has quit (Nick collision from services.) <a href="#t19:27" class="time">19:27</a> <tr id="t19:27"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | daMaestro (Jon) [n=jon@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t19:27" class="time">19:27</a> <tr id="t19:40"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | Lovechild has quit ("Ex-Chat") <a href="#t19:40" class="time">19:40</a> <tr id="t19:47"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | dgilmore has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <a href="#t19:47" class="time">19:47</a> <tr id="t19:53"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t19:53" class="time">19:53</a> <tr id="t19:56"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | BobJensen is now known as BobJensen-Away <a href="#t19:56" class="time">19:56</a> <tr id="t19:59"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | glezos has quit ("off") <a href="#t19:59" class="time">19:59</a> <tr id="t20:13"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | You're now known as thl_afk <a href="#t20:13" class="time">20:13</a> <tr id="t20:22"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | graveyard has quit  <a href="#t20:22" class="time">20:22</a> <tr id="t20:52"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | Questor (David Eisenstein) [n=ident@removed] has joined #Fedora-summit  <a href="#t20:52" class="time">20:52</a> <tr id="t20:59"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | jmbuser has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t20:59" class="time">20:59</a> <tr id="t21:03"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | Questor peeks in <a href="#t21:03" class="time">21:03</a> <tr id="t21:04"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | poelcat [i=slick@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving")  <a href="#t21:04" class="time">21:04</a> <tr id="t21:05"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | twunder [n=twunder@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "Apparently, I have better things to do")  <a href="#t21:05" class="time">21:05</a> <tr id="t21:06"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | corbet [n=user@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "No reason")  <a href="#t21:06" class="time">21:06</a> <tr id="t21:11"><th class="nick" style="background: #d97272">    Questor <td class="text" style="color: #d97272">| ping greendisease <a href="#t21:11" class="time">21:11</a> <tr id="t21:16"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | dgilmore has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <a href="#t21:16" class="time">21:16</a> <tr id="t21:20"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | Questor_ (David Eisenstein) [n=ident@removed] has joined #Fedora-summit  <a href="#t21:20" class="time">21:20</a> <tr id="t21:20"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | Questor has quit (Nick collision from services.) <a href="#t21:20" class="time">21:20</a> <tr id="t21:20"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | Questor_ is now known as Questor <a href="#t21:20" class="time">21:20</a> <tr id="t21:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| |DrJef|, thats too long what is the powerpoint slide that covers all 18 pages with 3 bullet points :) <a href="#t21:21" class="time">21:21</a>  <tr id="t21:21"><th class="nick" style="background: #d97272">     Questor <td class="text" style="color: #d97272">| Hi smooge, |DrJef| <a href="#t21:21" class="time">21:21</a>  <tr id="t21:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #d97272">     Questor <td class="text" style="color: #d97272">| d'oh <a href="#t21:26" class="time">21:26</a>  <tr id="t21:26"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | Questor wonders if someone could change the topic here to "Meeting over:  You may return to your regularly scheduled pandemonia."  <a href="#t21:26" class="time">21:26</a>  <tr id="t21:27"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Summit: Summit has ended. Thanks for all the fish! <a href="#t21:27" class="time">21:27</a> <tr id="t21:27"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | nirik [n=nkevin@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "Client exiting")  <a href="#t21:27" class="time">21:27</a> <tr id="t21:27"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | tibbs|h has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <a href="#t21:27" class="time">21:27</a> <tr id="t21:28"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | tibbs has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <a href="#t21:28" class="time">21:28</a> <tr id="t21:28"><th class="nick" style="background: #d97272">    Questor <td class="text" style="color: #d97272">| t'anks f13 :) <a href="#t21:28" class="time">21:28</a>  <tr id="t21:29"><th class="nick" style="background: #407a40">         f13 <td class="text" style="color: #407a40">| np <a href="#t21:29" class="time">21:29</a>  <tr id="t21:32"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | mitr [i=trmac@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving")  <a href="#t21:32" class="time">21:32</a>  <tr id="t21:34"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | vpv [i=vpivaini@removed]  has left #fedora-summit   <a href="#t21:34" class="time">21:34</a>  <tr id="t21:35"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | Questor [n=ident@removed]  has left #Fedora-summit ( ":)")  <a href="#t21:35" class="time">21:35</a> <tr id="t21:37"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | jcollie [n=jcollie@removed] has left #fedora-summit   <a href="#t21:37" class="time">21:37</a> <tr id="t21:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #b45fb4">    |DrJef| <td class="text" style="color: #b45fb4">| smooge, dont you mean odp slides? <a href="#t21:48" class="time">21:48</a> <tr id="t21:48"><th class="nick" style="background: #b45fb4">    |DrJef| <td class="text" style="color: #b45fb4">| smooge, ppt is forbodden <a href="#t21:48" class="time">21:48</a> <tr id="t21:49"><th class="nick" style="background: #854685">     smooge <td class="text" style="color: #854685">| no management.. it needs to have a ppt with wmv video imbedded <a href="#t21:49" class="time">21:49</a> <tr id="t21:51"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | dgilmore (Dennis Gilmore) [n=dennis@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t21:51" class="time">21:51</a> <tr id="t21:53"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | skvidal [n=skvidal@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "Ex-Chat")  <a href="#t21:53" class="time">21:53</a> <tr id="t22:07"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | dmalcolm [i=dmalcolm@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "Ex-Chat")  <a href="#t22:07" class="time">22:07</a> <tr id="t22:13"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | lmacken rolls out of bed <a href="#t22:13" class="time">22:13</a> <tr id="t22:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #6acaca">    lmacken <td class="text" style="color: #6acaca">| damn, i missed day 3 :( <a href="#t22:13" class="time">22:13</a>  <tr id="t22:13"><th class="nick" style="background: #5fb4b4">    dgilmore <td class="text" style="color: #5fb4b4">| lmacken: i missed it also <a href="#t22:13" class="time">22:13</a>  <tr id="t22:23"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | dgilmore [n=dennis@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Konversation terminated!")  <a href="#t22:23" class="time">22:23</a>  <tr id="t22:47"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | daMaestro has quit ("Leaving")  <a href="#t22:47" class="time">22:47</a>  <tr id="t22:59"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | jwb is now known as jwb_gone  <a href="#t22:59" class="time">22:59</a>  <tr id="t23:02"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | boudiccas [n=boudicca@removed]  has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving")  <a href="#t23:02" class="time">23:02</a> <tr id="t23:05"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | tibbs|h (Jason Tibbitts) [n=tibbs@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t23:05" class="time">23:05</a> <tr id="t23:09"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | mdomsch (Matt_Domsch) [n=Matt_Dom@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t23:09" class="time">23:09</a> <tr id="t23:18"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | smooge has quit ("-ENOCAFFEINE") <a href="#t23:18" class="time">23:18</a> <tr id="t23:27"><th class="nick" style="background: #6ed16e">    mdomsch <td class="text" style="color: #6ed16e">| FYI, today's logs at <a href="http://domsch.com/linux/fedora/fedora-summit.log.20061115">http://domsch.com/linux/fedora/fedora-summit.log.20061115</a> <a href="#t23:27" class="time">23:27</a> <tr id="t23:27"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | craigt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) <a href="#t23:27" class="time">23:27</a> <tr id="t23:27"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | mdomschbot has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t23:27" class="time">23:27</a> <tr id="t23:29"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | mdomsch [n=Matt_Dom@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving")  <a href="#t23:29" class="time">23:29</a> <tr id="t23:33"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">-- | Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net &lt;- <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">irc.freenode.net quits: mether <a href="#t23:33" class="time">23:33</a> <tr id="t23:33"><td class="other" colspan="2">--&gt; | Netsplit Over - Joins: mether <a href="#t23:33" class="time">23:33</a> <tr id="t23:34"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | couf has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t23:34" class="time">23:34</a> <tr id="t23:34"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | stickster_afk has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t23:34" class="time">23:34</a> <tr id="t23:34"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | stickster_afk (Paul W. Frields) [n=stickste@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t23:34" class="time">23:34</a> <tr id="t23:41"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | stickster_afk is now known as stickster <a href="#t23:41" class="time">23:41</a> <tr id="t23:43"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | couf (Unknown) [n=bart@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t23:43" class="time">23:43</a> <tr id="t23:51"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | nman64 has quit ("BBL") <a href="#t23:51" class="time">23:51</a> <td class="servermsg" colspan="3">--- Day changed Do Nov 16 2006 <tr id="t00:10"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | ahalsey has quit  <a href="#t00:10" class="time">00:10</a> <tr id="t00:27"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | BobJensen-Away is now known as BobJensen <a href="#t00:27" class="time">00:27</a> <tr id="t00:34"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | tibbs|h is now known as tibbs <a href="#t00:34" class="time">00:34</a> <tr id="t00:56"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | wjd [n=wjd@removed] has left #fedora-summit ( "Leaving")  <a href="#t00:56" class="time">00:56</a> <tr id="t01:39"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | llunved has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) <a href="#t01:39" class="time">01:39</a> <tr id="t01:53"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | cweyl (Chris Weyl) [n=cweyl@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t01:53" class="time">01:53</a> <tr id="t02:26"><th class="nick" style="background: #73da73">      cweyl <td class="text" style="color: #73da73">| bigb1ue <a href="#t02:26" class="time">02:26</a> <tr id="t02:30"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | |DrJef| has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t02:30" class="time">02:30</a> <tr id="t02:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #6262bb">   jwb_gone <td class="text" style="color: #6262bb">| cweyl, huh? <a href="#t02:40" class="time">02:40</a> <tr id="t02:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #73da73">      cweyl <td class="text" style="color: #73da73">| jwb_gone: erm, scratch that. <a href="#t02:44" class="time">02:44</a> <tr id="t02:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #6262bb">   jwb_gone <td class="text" style="color: #6262bb">| ;) <a href="#t02:44" class="time">02:44</a>  <tr id="t02:44"><th class="nick" style="background: #73da73">       cweyl <td class="text" style="color: #73da73">| ok, password changed :) <a href="#t02:44" class="time">02:44</a> <tr id="t02:45"><td class="action" colspan="2">* | cweyl blushes <a href="#t02:45" class="time">02:45</a> <tr id="t02:45"><th class="nick" style="background: #d3d36f">  BobJensen <td class="text" style="color: #d3d36f">| lol <a href="#t02:45" class="time">02:45</a> <tr id="t03:27"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | llunved (llunved) [n=llunved@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t03:27" class="time">03:27</a> <tr id="t03:32"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | autopsy has quit ("Leaving") <a href="#t03:32" class="time">03:32</a> <tr id="t05:00"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | llunved has quit (Remote closed the connection) <a href="#t05:00" class="time">05:00</a> <tr id="t05:24"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | tibbs is now known as tibbs|h <a href="#t05:24" class="time">05:24</a> <tr id="t05:31"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | BobJensen has quit (Nick collision from services.) <a href="#t05:31" class="time">05:31</a> <tr id="t05:33"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | EvilBob (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) [n=BobJense@removed] has joined #Fedora-Summit  <a href="#t05:33" class="time">05:33</a> <tr id="t05:33"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | EvilBob [n=BobJense@removed] has left #Fedora-Summit ( "Leaving")  <a href="#t05:33" class="time">05:33</a> <tr id="t05:39"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | sm|CPU has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) <a href="#t05:39" class="time">05:39</a> <tr id="t05:40"><th class="nick" style="background: #ce6c6c">-- | Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net &lt;- <td class="text" style="color: #ce6c6c">irc.freenode.net quits: draco, ajax, couf, cweyl, wwoods, jbowes, mether, f13 <a href="#t05:40" class="time">05:40</a> <tr id="t05:40"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | sm|CPU (Sankarshan) [n=sankarsh@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:40" class="time">05:40</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | mether (Rahul Sundaram) [n=ask@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | cweyl [n=cweyl@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | couf [n=bart@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | f13 [i=jkeating@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | ajax [i=ajackson@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | wwoods [i=wwoods@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | jbowes [i=jbowes@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="other" colspan="2">--&gt; | cweyl is Chris Weyl <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:44"><td class="other" colspan="2">--&gt; | couf is Unknown <a href="#t05:44" class="time">05:44</a> <tr id="t05:49"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | draco (draco) [n=draco@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t05:49" class="time">05:49</a> <tr id="t06:38"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | You're now known as thl <a href="#t06:38" class="time">06:38</a> <tr id="t08:59"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | abadger1999 has quit ("Leaving.") <a href="#t08:59" class="time">08:59</a> <tr id="t09:20"><td class="servermsg" colspan="2">--- | Users 30 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 29 normal] <a href="#t09:20" class="time">09:20</a> <tr id="t09:30"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | jnettlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) <a href="#t09:30" class="time">09:30</a> <tr id="t10:56"><td class="part" colspan="2">&lt;-- | c4chris_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <a href="#t10:56" class="time">10:56</a> <tr id="t10:57"><td class="join" colspan="2">--&gt; | c4chris_ (Christian Iseli) [n=chris@removed] has joined #fedora-summit  <a href="#t10:57" class="time">10:57</a> <tr id="t13:54"><td class="nickchange" colspan="2">--- | jwb_gone is now known as jwb <a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a> <tr id="t13:54"><th class="nick" style="background: #818144">        jwb <td class="text" style="color: #818144">| so why are we all in here still? <a href="#t13:54" class="time">13:54</a>
 * 1) !html

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