Extras/SteeringCommittee/Meeting-20060112

Fedora Extras Steering Committee Meeting
12 January 2006

Attending

 * Thorsten Leemhuis (thl)
 * Greg De Koenigsberg (gregdek)
 * Jeremy Katz (jeremy)
 * Elliot Lee (Sopwith)
 * Warren Togami (warren)
 * Seth Vidal (skvidal)
 * Enrico Scholz (ensc)
 * ThomasVanderStichele (thomasvs)
 * MichaelSchwendt (mschwendt)

Actions

 * Official statement on the recent Mono happenings: "Business considerations that prevented certain Mono components from being included in Fedora previously have now been resolved."
 * Elect a new leader for FESCO. thl has does the job now
 * Kernel module standardization. Discussing still ongoing on fedora-extras-list
 * Mass rebuild of Extras for FC5 -- should wait until closer to test3 to even consider it. thl will try to start a discussion on fedora-extras-list about mass-rebuilding of extras for FC5
 * FE-NEEDSPONSOR thing -- warren> | thl, I'll create the new tracker and amend the process

Complete Log
18:58             * | gregdek grrs. 18:59             * | gregdek looks around. 18:59 <    skvidal> | hi gregdek :) 18:59              * | skvidal tries to look like a crowd 19:00              * | gregdek recommends lots of Doritos and Mountain Dew. 19:00 <     roozbeh> | skvidal: do it this way: HIII GREGGGDEKKK 19:00            --> | ensc (Enrico Scholz) [n=irc-ensc@fedora/ensc]  has joined #fedora-extras 19:00 <     gregdek> | So!  Where's our new chairman?  :) 19:00 <    gregdek> | OK, let's get started. 19:01             * | warren looks at thl 19:01 <    gregdek> | I'd like to start with Mono. I know it's not on the agenda, but let's start with Mono anyway. 19:01 <    skvidal> | good idea 19:01 <     warren> | OH.... 19:01 <    gregdek> | I posted an entry to my blog. 19:01             * | warren suddenly understands all the kissing jokes. 19:01             * | thl now here, sorry telephone 19:01             * | roozbeh licks his lips 19:01 <    gregdek> | For those of you who haven't read it, the Official Stance: 19:02 <    gregdek> | "Business considerations that prevented certain Mono components from being included in Fedora previously have now been resolved." 19:02 <       ensc> | RH is bought by microsoft? 19:02 <        che> | lol 19:02 <    gregdek> | And that, much to my dismay, is all I can say at the present time. However, I promise you that as soon as I can say more, I will. 19:02             * | skvidal quotes that 19:02 <    skvidal> | "sources close to fedora extras say rh has been bought by MS" 19:02 <    gregdek> | BLOG IT! PRINT IT! 19:02 <        che> | skvidal, /. ;) 19:03             * | skvidal goes to drudge, too 19:03 <     gregdek> | Anyone have anything they'd like to say about our position on Mono?  Consider this a bully pulpit. 19:03            --> | thomasvs (Thomas Vander Stichele) [n=thomas@fedora/thomasvs]  has joined #fedora-extras 19:04 <     skvidal> | I had mono in college, and it sucked 19:04 <     roozbeh> | gregdek: i don't like the Mono in FC4 story much. 19:04 <         che> | gregdek, mono is controlled by aliens. 19:04 < dgilmore|wo> | i think it would have been nice for a heads up on the devel and extras mailing list 19:04 <     skvidal> | che: pod people 19:04 <     gregdek> | dgilmore: I agree. 19:04 <     skvidal> | dgilmore: or -maintainers 19:04 <         che> | gregdek, mono in fc5 is one thing but mono in gnome makes me scream. 19:04 <      warren> | I believe the main rationale behind "no mono in FE4 yet" is that the mono packages in FC5 are very preliminary and require many more changes, is this accurate? 19:05 <    gregdek> | dgilmore: Let me ask you this. What if we'd basically presented the statement above, EXACTLY as I said it. Would that have been sufficient notice? 19:05 < dgilmore|wo> | i would also say that some of the mono packages i.e beagle and f-spot especially beagle  should move to extras 19:05           --> | uwog (Marc Maurer) [n=uwog@pinohuis.adsl.utwente.nl]  has joined #fedora-extras 19:05 <     warren> | che, please shush, that is not a Fedora specific problem. 19:05 <     jeremy> | warren: correct 19:05 <        thl> | warren, afaik yes 19:05 <    roozbeh> | dgilmore|work: why should they move to extras? 19:06             * | uwog thinks this has been asked before, but is it me, or are all package checksums fscked ? 19:06 <     jeremy> | dgilmore: beagle is required for nautilus 19:06 <        thl> | warren, and I suppose extras has a lot to do in the next two month anyway to get extras in shape for FC5 19:06 < ignacio|Sch> | ... 19:06 <        che> | warren, never said that. 19:06 < dgilmore|wo> | gregdek: yeah even if it was that statement  10 minutes before the rawhide report  announcing them 19:06 <     warren> | uwog, not an extras problem, please refer to fedora-devel-list. 19:06 <    gregdek> | dgilmore: Point taken. Thanks. 19:07 <       uwog> | warren: crap, i was subscribed to fedora-maintainers, and i hoped that would be enough :-P 19:07 <    gregdek> | OK. I've said my peace on Mono, and I am ready to move on. :) 19:07 <    warren> | thl, ++ 19:07 < dgilmore|wo> | roozbeh: so that they beagle can take advantage of  indexing word and excel documents    the deps for those are in extras 19:08 <    thomasvs> | nautilus works without beagle 19:08 <    thomasvs> | it shouldn't be a hard dep, and not making it something pluggable shouldn't be the way to force mono/beagle in core 19:08 <     roozbeh> | dgilmore|work: then we should perhaps move those dependencies to core... 19:08 <      warren> | dgilmore, I would recommend starting a thread about this on fedora-devel-list. 19:08 <    thomasvs> | it makes nautilus feel like the trojan horse mono rode in on 19:08 <     gregdek> | +1 19:08 <     gregdek> | +1 to a thread on fedora-devel-list. 19:09 <     skvidal> | no 19:09 <     skvidal> | -maintainers 19:09 <     skvidal> | not -devel 19:09 <      warren> | hm 19:09 <     skvidal> | I'd rather not have every random numnum commenting on that 19:09 <     warren> | either is fine to me 19:09 <      jeremy> | thomasvs: okay, it isn't a hard dep. but it's the only way of enabling the functionality (which really is quite nice) 19:09 <   thomasvs> | jeremy: that's the point - it should be pluggable 19:09 <   thomasvs> | I'm fine with mono, but all of it currently belongs in extras 19:09 <   thomasvs> | and the argument that nautilus is nicer with it should make the nautilus maintainer make it pluggable 19:10 <   thomasvs> | because nautilus is in gnome and beagle/mono isn't 19:10 <      warren> | I move that this discussion go to fedora-maintainers list. 19:10 <   thomasvs> | agreed :) 19:10 <         thl> | agreed ;) 19:10 <     jeremy> | thomasvs: it is pluggable and there's a non-beagle backend. but it's not nearly as nice or useful with the basic backend 19:10 <     jeremy> | but yes, this isn't an extras discussion 19:10 <    gregdek> | OK! 19:10 <    gregdek> | Moving on: 19:11 <    gregdek> | * Elect a new leader for FESCO. 19:11 <   gregdek> | thl: How you doin'? 19:11             * | skvidal nominates thl 19:11 <    gregdek> | :) 19:11 <     skvidal> | agan 19:11 <         thl> | okay, if you guys think I can do the job then I'll try 19:11 <     gregdek> | Hurrah! 19:12 <      warren> | woo!!! 19:12 <    thomasvs> | 19:12 <     gregdek> | We have a motion to elect thl as the leader of the Fedora Extras project!  All in favor: +1! 19:12 <     gregdek> | +1 19:12 <      warren> | +1 19:12 <    thomasvs> | +1 19:12 <     bpepple> | +1 19:12 <        ensc> | +1 19:12 <     Sopwith> | +10 19:12 <     Sopwith> | -9 19:12 <     skvidal> | +1 19:12 <     gregdek> | Any opposed? 19:13 <     gregdek> | And wants to get slapped? 19:13 <     skvidal> | oo oo 19:13 <     skvidal> | me 19:13 <    thomasvs> | his current or future significant others ! 19:13 <     skvidal> | I wanna get slapped 19:13 <     skvidal> | wait 19:13 <     skvidal> | no 19:13 <     skvidal> | nevermind 19:13              * | thomasvs slaps skvidal 19:13 <    gregdek> | Okey doke. 19:13 <    skvidal> | awww 19:13 <    skvidal> | thanks 19:13             * | warren proposes new kernel syscall for slap interface... 19:13 <   gregdek> | thl: Are you clear on the job responsibilities? 19:13 <    gregdek> | * Run this meeting; 19:14 <    gregdek> | * Keep the wiki agenda up to date; 19:14 <        thl> | gregdek, not fully, repeating those might be a good idea 19:14             * | roozbeh is worried that giving thl extra duties may make him have less time for all the nice things he is currently doing 19:14 <    roozbeh> | ;) 19:14 <     gregdek> | * Drive the discussions in f-e-l like you already have been; 19:14 <      warren> | * Follow up with people necessary to get agenda items done 19:14 <     skvidal> | roozbeh: that's our plan (muahahahahahhahaha) 19:14 <    thomasvs> | * kick ass 19:14 <     gregdek> | * And delegate when necessary.  :) 19:14 <    gregdek> | That's basically it. As a benchmark, I spend 2-3hr a week on administrative issues, tops. 19:14 <        thl> | gregdek, that point is important :) 19:15 <      warren> | * Refer legal issues to gregdek? 19:15 <         thl> | warren, good point 19:15 <     gregdek> | Yes, but I'm going to be a front-end for the board. 19:15 <         thl> | gregdek? 19:15 <     gregdek> | Legal issues need to be resolved by the board -- and I'm the conduit. 19:15 <         thl> | gregdek, thx 19:15 <     skvidal> | the board is a 3-tiered application 19:15 <     gregdek> | OK.  The new world order begins... 19:15 <     skvidal> | gregdek - the ui 19:15 <     gregdek> | ...NOW! 19:15 <     skvidal> | the board - the middle 19:16 <     skvidal> | people with money - the backend 19:16              * | gregdek hands the gavel to thl and goes to get a cup of coffee! 19:16 <     gregdek> | (bbiab) 19:16 <         thl> | okay 19:16 <     gregdek> | Reminder: agenda at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraExtrasSchedule 19:16 <        thl> | next point on the agenda: Kernel module standardization 19:16 <   skvidal> | thl: some discussion of that on the yum-devel list 19:16 <    skvidal> | on making the changes and making it a plugin 19:16 <     warren> | Status question, did jeremy get internal buy-in for the standard? 19:16 <        thl> | skvidal, saw them 19:16 <   skvidal> | thl: jack neely is leading it 19:17 <    skvidal> | thl: it seems like he's on top of it, to me 19:17 <     skvidal> | cool 19:17 <        thl> | skvidal, that's great 19:17 <     jeremy> | warren: yes 19:17 <     warren> | =) 19:17 <    skvidal> | thl: if things work out fairly well for this standard 19:17 <     skvidal> | we might consider talking to people at novell/suse about using it 19:17 <         thl> | the question currently is afaics: 19:17 <    thomasvs> | (thanks gregdek for a job well done and the decision to step away and pass the gavel) 19:17 <         thl> | do we stick to what we agreed on 19:18 <      warren> | good riddance 19:18              * | warren oops... no thinking out loud 19:18 <         thl> | or do we want to rediscuss this thing dwmw2 braught up 19:18 <     skvidal> | jeremy: go find warren's cube and beat the crap out of him, please. :) 19:18 <        thl> | the think where a shell script instead of a rpm macro does the job 19:18 <     jeremy> | skvidal: he's working from home, otherwise, I could just drop stuff over the cube wall on him 19:19           <-- | ensc [n=irc-ensc@fedora/ensc]  has quit (Remote closed the connection) 19:19 <   skvidal> | thl: I think reopening the whole thing will mean more months of pain 19:19 <    jeremy> | thl: I think either is fine... whichever has a greater consensus or whichever you decide seems "better" 19:19 <   skvidal> | thl: why don't we try what we discussed for fc5 19:19 <    skvidal> | and see how it goes 19:19           <-- | quaid [n=quaid@209-204-141-71.dsl.static.sonic.net]  has quit (Connection timed out) 19:19 <    skvidal> | then change things based on that experience for FC6 19:19 <        thl> | skvidal, it's not that different for the resulting spec 19:20 <        thl> | It's only the way how we get there 19:20 <        thl> | and the new way is probably easier for the buildsys 19:20 <    skvidal> | then ask dcbw 19:20 <        thl> | but nobody commented on what I posted 19:20 <        thl> | not even scop :-| 19:21 <     warren> | is this the permutation thing? 19:21 <    skvidal> | maybe we didn't realize the difference 19:21 <        thl> | skvidal, look at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-January/msg00448.html 19:21           --> | mschwendt (Michael Schwendt) [n=rawhide@p548CA01A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de]  has joined #fedora-extras 19:22 <        thl> | this fedora-kmodhelper now creates a template for the spec file 19:22 <        thl> | and it is called by "%{expand:%(%{SOURCE10} rpmtemplate %{kmod_name} %{kverrel} %{kvariants} 2>/dev/null)} 19:22 <         thl> | we don't have to hardcode the variants this way 19:22 <         thl> | the buildsys simply can say now: 19:23 <         thl> | rpmbuild -ba foo --define kver\ --define "kvariants up smp xen-guest xen-hypervisor" 19:23 <         thl> | depending on what exists 19:23 <         thl> | and what not 19:24 < ignacio|Sch> | Can the variants still be specified manually? 19:24 <         thl> | ignacio|School, you mean in the spec-file? sure 19:24 < dgilmore|wo> | one thing ive seen with this looking at the zaptel drivers that have been submitted for review is that using rpmbuild on a x86_64 system a build requires is kernel-devel-x86_64 which obviously doesnt exist 19:25 <         thl> | dgilmore|work, that should be virtual provid by the normal kernel-devel package 19:25             * | dgilmore|work goes to bugzilla to file a report 19:26 <        thl> | well, let adjourn this one more week 19:26 <        thl> | and proceed with the agenda 19:26 <    jcollie> | yeah, it does build on x86_64 - i did do a *little* testing :) 19:26 <         thl> | Sopwith, "Bouncer info" 19:27 <         thl> | [Sopwith]  Idle 0 days 0 hours 14 minutes 31 seconds, Signon Thu Jan 12 18:56:34 2006 19:27 <     skvidal> | lmacken: ping 19:27 <     skvidal> | lmacken: any knowledge on bouncer? 19:28 < ignacio|Sch> | ... 19:28 <     skvidal> | oooookay 19:28 <    skvidal> | thl: maybe the next item? :) 19:28 <        thl> | probably 19:28 <        thl> | jeremy, "Mass rebuild of Extras for FC5" 19:29 <    jeremy> | thl: I still think we should wait until closer to test3 to even consider it 19:29 <      warren> | Jakub mentioned further fixes to gcc/glibc needed before we do it 19:29 <     gregdek> | Sopwith: Bouncer? 19:29 <  mschwendt> | do we need a mass-rebuild of all Extras? 19:29 <    skvidal> | gregdek: he's ajk 19:29 <  mschwendt> | if so, why? 19:30 <    skvidal> | gregdek: err afk 19:30 <     jeremy> | mschwendt: it would be good to get things rebuilt for all of the new security stuff 19:30 <        thl> | mschwendt, new security features from gcc 4.1 19:30 < ignacio|Sch> | Plenty of the packages haven't been rebuilt since 4.0.1. 19:30 <  mschwendt> | jeremy, thl: okay, that's a reason 19:30 <        thl> | mschwendt, and find all the problems that gcc 4.1 will show in the packages 19:30 <     warren> | well, our gcc-4.0.x had the fortify source stuff patched in earlier 19:30 <     warren> | but we should do it anyway 19:30 <        thl> | IMHO it's better we fix those now once and for all 19:31 <  mschwendt> | just asking because feedback on fedora-devel list was, well, poor. 19:31 <        thl> | the question imho is: 19:31 <        thl> | are the extras buildsystems fast enough? 19:31 <        thl> | they are a lot slower than behivve 19:31 <        thl> | and we need time after build to fix up stuff 19:32 <        thl> | that broke 19:32 < ignacio|Sch> | I could see it taking 4 days to rebuild everything. 19:32 <  mschwendt> | at least 19:32 <        thl> | yeah, probably longer 19:32 < ignacio|Sch> | With the issues plague/mock has been exhibiting, certainly. 19:33 <    Sopwith> | sorry, was AFK. bouncer is not moving along too fast, partially due to my lack of time and partially due to bouncer features that will need to be implemented. 19:33 <    jcollie> | is there any development going on in the yum/mock/rpm groups to speed up the time it takes to set up the build root? 19:33 <    Sopwith> | If anyone wants to hack on bouncer, please join us on #fedora-admin at 3pm EST. 19:33 < ignacio|Sch> | Lack of resources has prevented that for the most part. 19:34 <        che> | Sopwith, where can i read up on bouncer? 19:34           --> | ensc (Enrico Scholz) [n=irc-ensc@fedora/ensc]  has joined #fedora-extras 19:34 <    Sopwith> | che: http://osuosl.org/projects/bouncer/ 19:34 <        che> | Sopwith, thank you. bouncer is not a good term to google on. 19:35 <        thl> | well, I'll try to start a discussion on fedora-extras-list about mass-rebuilding of extras for FC5 19:35 <        thl> | that okay for everybody? 19:35 <        thl> | I'll say that we'll do it around "test3" 19:35 <   bpepple> | thl: sounds good. 19:35 <        thl> | warren, "Incompatible package upgrade policy" 19:36 <   skvidal> | thl: that works for me 19:36 <     warren> | thl, had no time to work on writing it, I still want to 19:37 <     skvidal> | jcollie: if you want to work on mock 19:37 <        che> | Sopwith, so you wanna distribute the load more intelligently on the server side. cause on client side (pinging etc) just causes overhead aswell if i get that right. 19:37 <    skvidal> | jcollie: subscribe to fedora-buildsys-list and post patches 19:37 <    warren> | thl, defer this to next week 19:37 <        thl> | warren, k 19:37 <     skvidal> | jcollie: show me and others that you're moving in the right direction and I'll get you commit access to it 19:37 <         thl> | everybody: "Weekly sponsorship nomination" 19:38 <     warren> | nobody in mind here 19:38 <    Sopwith> | che: We want to do the mirror balancing with bouncer so (a) we can get download statistics (b) we can do smarter mirror balancing (c) we can more easily direct people only to mirrors that are known-good 19:38 <        che> | Sopwith, but dont forget one thing. 19:38             * | skvidal thinks all of the above are good things 19:39 <        thl> | okay, no new sponsors 19:39             * | thl looks at agenda 19:39 <        che> | Sopwith, if you route me over half the globe cause the mirror in au has most free capacity... i will use alot more hops... and slow down alot more networks ;) 19:39 <    skvidal> | che: that's another advantage of having something answering as a mirrorlist 19:39 <     skvidal> | that's not just a file 19:39 <     skvidal> | there's a potential for intelligent routing 19:40 <         che> | yeah sure. 19:40 <     Sopwith> | che: Not necessarily. The internet topology is not very geographically related. But, we do have the potential to account for that. 19:40 <         thl> | bytee_, around; there is "Account expiration policy" on the agenda due for January 2006 19:40 <     skvidal> | right now there is no chance of that 19:40 <         che> | Sopwith, there are ways to even identify the country of the person relatively reliable. geoip library. 19:40 <     Sopwith> | Is bittorrent in FC? 19:40 < ignacio|Sch> | In Core, yes. 19:40 <     skvidal> | it's in FE 19:41 <     skvidal> | it's in core? 19:41 <     Sopwith> | che: Right - like I said, it's a potential. 19:41 < ignacio|Sch> | Oh, right, my bad. 19:41 <    skvidal> | when did bittorrent get moved to core? 19:41 <     warren> | Sopwith, someone is adding another torrent client to extras now too... 19:41 < ignacio|Sch> | No, I'm just tired. 19:41 <    roozbeh> | someone was supposed to move it to core. discussions clearly in last month. 19:41 <    Sopwith> | I was thinking we should move BT to core and integrate with yum :) 19:41 <     skvidal> | jeremy: you have ops 19:41 <     skvidal> | kick sopwith 19:41 <         che> | Sopwith, that would be awesome 19:41 <         thl> | Sopwith, what the status of "Package Reviewer Rewards"? 19:41 <         che> | Sopwith, hehe 19:41              * | ignacio|School watches a vein on skvidal's forehead bulge 19:41 <         thl> | Sopwith, "Waiting on Sopwith to finish SoC stuff, and then metrics" still true? 19:42 <    Sopwith> | thl: I think the basic plumbing is there to track who is reviewing the packages, but it is not actually running at the moment. 19:42 <     Sopwith> | And then someone would need to set up a regular e-mail noting who has done the most reviews lately. 19:42 <         che> | Sopwith, that torrent client is pretty sweet btw: http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no/ 19:42 <     roozbeh> | skvidal: ok, alexl was supposed to move it to core. 19:42 <    roozbeh> | skvidal: fedora-devel list, 2005-12-15 19:42 <    skvidal> | roozbeh: hmm 19:43 <        thl> | Sopwith, k 19:43 <         thl> | ignacio|School, jeremy 'Make "current" and "devel" branches for new packages by default' 19:43 <        thl> | I saw the patch from ignacio; what's the status? 19:43 <        che> | Sopwith, very low cpu usage ;) 19:44 < ignacio|Sch> | warren was saying that we need another way to "gold status" new packages first. 19:44 < ignacio|Sch> | I'm thinking another blocker, FE-APPROVED, which would have to be set before import. 19:44 <         thl> | ignacio|School, "gold status" ? 19:45 <      warren> | I didn't say "gold status" 19:45 <      warren> | not sure what you mean 19:45 < ignacio|Sch> | Do a final check of both the package and review. 19:45 <         thl> | ignacio|School, why would that be needed? 19:45 <      warren> | oh, that 19:45 <     roozbeh> | what about the FE-NEEDSPONSOR thing? 19:45 <      warren> | ignacio, I thought about it more, we can just go ahead with branching and I'll do checks afterward. 19:45 < ignacio|Sch> | Fair enough. 19:45 <     bpepple> | roozbeh: I'd like to see that also, it would make reviewing easier. 19:45 < ignacio|Sch> | Slightly OT... 19:45 <        thl> | ignacio|School, you mean make sure that the importat package is exactly the one that got reviewed? 19:46 <     warren> | che, please bring discussiona about bouncer to the 3PM meeting 19:46 <    roozbeh> | bpepple: that was clearly handed to FESCO in the list. 19:46 < ignacio|Sch> | *shrug* I don't know the exact details. Ask warren. 19:46 <        che> | warren, 3pm what timezone? 19:46 <     warren> | che, 1 hour 15 minutes from now 19:46 <        che> | warren, thanks. 19:46 <     warren> | che, talk to Sopwith directly for more info 19:46 < ignacio|Sch> | I also have a patch in BZ for handling the disttag properly. I'll add that before committing the branch-creation stuff. 19:46 < ignacio|Sch> | With approval, of course. 19:47 <        che> | warren, all i can do is maybe come up with some ideas. no clue if i can contribute much useful. maybe. 19:47 <     warren> | ignacio|School, add me CC to the bugs for review and talk to me after the meeting 19:47 <     warren> | ignacio|School, I'll be sure to work with you in getting it into the system by early next week. 19:47 <        thl> | okay, seems we're stuck here; lets revisit later 19:47 < ignacio|Sch> | I have to go to class at 2:30, but maybe tonight. 19:48 <        thl> | Sopwith, there is another one for you 19:48 <     warren> | ignacio|School, no prob 19:48 <    Sopwith> | Oh goody. 19:48 <        thl> | Sopwith, "FC5 naming, near FC5t1 release, maybe?" 19:48 <    Sopwith> | Ahah 19:48 <    Sopwith> | So what needs to happen at this point 19:48 <    Sopwith> | Is that someone needs to come up with a list of possibilities 19:48             * | skvidal thinks we should call it sopwith 19:48 <    skvidal> | all in favor 19:48 <        thl> | ask on fedora-maintainers for *private* suggestions? 19:49 <    Sopwith> | The Fedora Foundation will have a bank account really soon that we can link to paypal. 19:49 <     warren> | heh 19:49 <   roozbeh> | thl: fedora-maintainers is not private... 19:49 <        thl> | roozbeh, sure 19:49 <   Sopwith> | thl: I think we should just make the rules for names sufficiently clear, and open it up. 19:49 <    skvidal> | roozbeh: he means ask for people to email privately. 19:49 <    roozbeh> | ah 19:49 <         thl> | thx skvidal :) 19:50 <      warren> | Sopwith, please don't do this on fedora-devel-list, it will be yet another huge and useless thread. 19:50 <      warren> | like "What do we want in FC5?" 19:50 <     Sopwith> | warren: This is open source. We discuss things openly. Get used to it. 19:50 <         thl> | agreed 19:50              * | roozbeh thinks about calling it something related to monkeys, since FC5 has Mono there now... 19:50 <      warren> | Doing it in that way invites so much noise that signal becomes lost. 19:51 <         che> | while i personally think lots of discussions produce hot air.. there can still be good ideas in em. 19:51 <         thl> | warren, "The Fedora project will have to make changes to preserve developer and user interest in 2006. Fedora is still hard to contribute to, its decision process is relatively opaque, " http://lwn.net/Articles/165351/ 19:51 <        thl> | I agree with that 19:52 <        thl> | Sopwith, fedora-devel-list is probably the best place 19:52 <     warren> | Sopwith, with the mention of paypal, did you mean that only people that contribute will have names in consideration? 19:52 <    Sopwith> | warren: Yea, basically. 19:52 <        thl> | BTW, why is the FC5 naming on the extras-agenda? It's a core thing ;-) 19:52 <     warren> | True 19:52 <      warren> | well this is OT, but I have a process idea 19:52 <    Sopwith> | thl: Yea, sorry. I suppose we need a public Fedora Core project under Fedora 19:53 <      warren> | 1. Process invites people to submit proposed names along with paypal donations. 19:53 <         thl> | Sopwith, np, I was just wondering 19:53 <      warren> | 2. Proposed names are posted for discussion on fedora-devel-list 19:53 <      warren> | 3. ??? 19:53 <      warren> | 4. PROFIT! 19:53 <     Sopwith> | hehe 19:53 <  mschwendt> | thl: not the first time non-Extras stuff is discussed at FESCO 19:53            --> | cweyl (Chris Weyl) [n=cweyl@129.33.1.37]  has joined #fedora-extras 19:54 <         thl> | mschwendt, I can live with that -- but we don't want to delay FC5 ;-) 19:54 <        thl> | anyway, let's proceed: 19:54 <        thl> | any other things we need to discuss now and today? 19:55 <        thl> | [19:45:19]  <     roozbeh> | what about the FE-NEEDSPONSOR thing? 19:55 <        thl> | I think we need such a bug 19:55 <   bpepple> | thl: +1 19:55 <    warren> | thl: +1 19:56 <     warren> | that'd make it easier in my usual education tihng 19:56 <        thl> | k, then let's do it; who works out the details? 19:56 <        thl> | non-Fesco-People are invited, too 19:56 <     warren> | I can do it 19:56 < ignacio|Sch> | Can't we have BZ connect to the account system in order to figure out who's in CLADONE but not, uh, whatever the contributor group is? 19:56 <     warren> | closest to my daily chore 19:57 <      ender> | meeting didn't start did it? 19:57 <    bpepple> | ender: Just about finished. 19:57 <    roozbeh> | i believe we should do it simply. 19:57             * | thl notices that ender once again is a hour late 19:57 <    Sopwith> | ignacio: Why does bugzilla need to know anything about it? 19:57 <     warren> | ignacio|School, many blockers on that... including "no keys that match between account and bz system..." 19:57 <      ender> | I was stuck on the 2pm thing. 19:57 <    roozbeh> | just create the new tracker and let's see how things develop. 19:57 <      ender> | thats ok, I'm busy testing FC5Test2 so.... 19:57 <     ender> | thl: thats the story of my life. 19:58 <    warren> | thl, I'll create the new tracker and amend the process. 19:58 <        thl> | ender, testing FC5T2 is probably important 19:58 <        thl> | warren, thx 19:58 < ignacio|Sch> | Sopwith: BZ could add packages from new contributors to the blocker automagically on submission. 19:58 <        thl> | okay, anything else to discuss? 19:58 <    roozbeh> | i have something 19:59 <    Sopwith> | ignacio: Why not just list all packages submitted for review on the blocker? 19:59 <     warren> | Sopwith, we already do that 19:59 <    Sopwith> | Cool 19:59 <     warren> | Sopwith, don't worry I know exactly what to do here. 19:59 <        thl> | roozbeh ? 19:59 <    Sopwith> | warren: Yes, but you need to communicate that knowledge to others. 19:59 <    roozbeh> | I'm stuck in a weird situation, i got sponsored in a rather abnormal way, and i can't get any more packages reviewed. is that normal? 20:00 <    roozbeh> | i mean, should i just wait? 20:00 <     warren> | Sopwith, the solution was already suggested above 20:00 <        thl> | roozbeh, details please. Why can't you any more packages reviewed? 20:00 <  mschwendt> | roozbeh: yeah, just be patient or exchange reviews with other packagers 20:00 <     warren> | roozbeh, packages that get reviewed by only interest of other deveopers. You may want to exchange reviews with another contributor. 20:00 <    gregdek> | So how about this: 20:00 <    gregdek> | Make it clear the The Golden Rule Works. 20:00 <    roozbeh> | warren: isn't that cheating? 20:00 <      ender> | warren: roozbeh: the mono in FC4 issue is that rpm itself needs an update before it can handle things correctly. That we aren't prepared to do at this moment in time. 20:00 <     warren> | roozbeh, not if you actually review it. 20:01 <    gregdek> | "How Do I Get My Packages Reviewed?" "By Reviewing Other Packages." 20:01 <    roozbeh> | ender: i'm not talking about Mono 20:01 <    gregdek> | And put it in Big Letters Somewhere. 20:01 <      ender> | roozbeh: you had concerns about mono in FE4 20:01 <    Sopwith> | If you're not yet a package maintainer, do you have the access necessary to review other packages? 20:01 <    roozbeh> | ender: ah, they were resolved at the beginning of the meeting :) 20:01 <     roozbeh> | Sopwith: i am a package maintainer. it's a font 20:02 <       ender> | roozbeh: yes, I was confirming the issues. 20:02 <   mschwendt> | Sopwith: sure, you just cannot approve a new package ;) 20:02 <    bpepple> | Sopwith: You should be able to review, just not Approve a package. 20:02 < ignacio|Sch> | Strictly speaking I don't think reviewing a package is restricted. Anyone is welcome to add their comments to BZ. 20:02 <      cweyl> | can someone approve a package that has been reviewed by someone else tho? 20:02 <      cweyl> | w/o doing another review, that is 20:02 <     bpepple> | cweyl: Sure. 20:03 <  mschwendt> | bpepple: no 20:03 <     roozbeh> | ok, i guess i have some answers. if you want reviews, review other people's packages. only the first review was probably free :) 20:03 <        thl> | cweyl, a review to approve should be at least a lot easier then 20:03 <  mschwendt> | thl: and if not, all parties involved learn something 20:03 <      cweyl> | thl, bpepple: yah.  just making the answer explicit :) 20:03 <    bpepple> | mschwendt: I didn't see cweyl second line before replying. 20:04 <  mschwendt> | bpepple: I figured that. :) 20:04 <        thl> | okay, we should add this "How Do I Get My Packages Reviewed?"  "By Reviewing Other Packages." added somewhere in the wiki 20:04 <         thl> | who takes care of that? 20:05 <         thl> | and while we are waiting for someone to step up: 20:05 <         thl> | gregdek, what do you thing about testdisk (#169624) 20:05 <         thl> | the isse regarding ntfs support in it 20:06 <         thl> | to we need to forward it to legal? 20:07            <-- | Sopwith [n=anon@cpe-066-057-083-230.nc.res.rr.com]  has quit ("Loading 18k x 18k image in GIMP - bad move") 20:07 <         thl> | we'll sort this out later 20:08              * | thl will close meeting in 20:08 <         thl> | 10 20:08 <    skvidal> | thl: thanks for taking the leader job - and for running the first meeting 20:08 <         thl> | 5 20:08 <         thl> | skvidal, thx;  who took notes? 20:08 <     nirik99> | other possible legal lookovers: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=171597 and https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=168580 20:08 <        thl> | or: who posts them to the wiki? 20:09 <        thl> | nirik99, thx, I'll look at those and get back to them next week 20:09 <        thl> | closing in 3 20:09           <-- | roozbeh [n=roozbeh@213.233.163.13]  has quit ("Leaving") 20:09 <        thl> | 2 20:09 <        thl> | 1 20:09 <    nirik99> | thanks thl 20:09 <        thl> | MARK meeting end