Websites/Meetings/2008-08-18

00:00 ok... my clock says MIDNIGHT, and that means we have a Fedora Websites meeting, starting NOW!

00:00 please state your name for the record :)

00:00 Max Spevack

00:00 < CB6> lol a lot of people yelling outside coming off the patios below

00:00 MIchael Beckwith

00:00 < CB6> Adam Humphreys

00:01 adam, either i haven't been paying close enough attention, or you're relatively new here. which is it?

00:01 < JonRob> Jonathan Roberts

00:01 hey jonrob

00:01 he's n00b

00:01 < JonRob> yo spevack

00:01 < CB6> about two weeks and not approved yet. I sent off an email about a week or so ago

00:01 and don't mind if i pick on him, i've known him for awhile

00:01 s/]/]]/

00:01 well, it's good to meet you CB6

00:01 hey quaid. i cut my hair. you win.

00:02 darn

00:02 anyone else around?

00:02 yup I'm here

00:02 < CB6> I don't know if everyone has seen me in here. I did go on vacation for 4 days in the last week

00:02 another irc nick that i don't recognize. hi ylynfatt

00:02 just a big biker-style moustache, technically, plus the 'chops :)

00:02 ylynfatt: what's your full name?

00:03 heh, ylynfatt's nick is actually name derived

00:03 indeed... i just did a /who

00:03 you hack on drupal?

00:03 yannick Lyn Fatt

00:04 well, we have a pretty small crowd, but that is ok for this particular Websites meeting

00:04 let me start with a few comments...

00:04 i was hoping that folks would have a meeting last week even though I was on vacation, but since we didn't, it's been a few weeks since we have had one.

00:05 and i feel like, looking back over the last few months, we've had a few "wins" in the Fedora Websites team.

00:05 I'll quickly enumerate:

00:05 (1) day to day changes in content continue to appear when needed

00:05 (2) we got some initial work done on a potential follow-up to get-fedora page.

00:05 (3) we got a new planet look and feel rolled out and debugged

00:06 (4) we got a requirements doc and initial vision of spins.fedoraproject.org

00:06 (5) a few other things that I'm probably forgetting

00:06 what am i forgetting?

00:07 we migrated the wiki, though that's by no means purely a "websites" achievement

00:07 that was a larger group effort

00:07 though websites was involved.

00:07 anyway... point being. From my perspective as the "meeting wrangler" I feel like we've generated some decent successes, and some momentum.

00:08 but i think the last few weeks, we've kind of stalled out a bit.

00:08 there are a few reasons why:

00:08 (1) i think our meeting times suck. half the people seem like they are never at the meetings.

00:08 (2) we've had some vacations

00:09 (3) I've been very busy. My role here has always been a bit odd... happy to try to lead the meetings, but it was always clear from the beginning that I didn't have time to contribute directly to many of the action items.

00:09 ergo, as i have gotten busy, the attention i paid as meeting wrangler has varied.

00:09 I still think there is a very clearly articulated path forward for websites.

00:10 what I don't know is whether or not people are satisfied with the pace at which we are moving, or think we should be pushing ourselves a bit harder.

00:10 that is a point of feedback i would like to hear some thoughts on.

00:10 < CB6> I'm just curious what was migrated to.. are we talking to a new CMS?

00:10 we migrated MoinMoin to MediaWiki

00:11 i think we're progressing at a nice steady pace

00:11 we had a while of good solid progress and then we kind of took a break to enjoy some summer

00:11 < CB6> There's been a lot of suggestion that we're going to be prone to exploits beyond a certain point. Do we still need a CMS?

00:11 < JonRob> i think one project that i'd like to have seen us make more progress on but stalled

00:11 and now we need a kick in the pants to get back on schedule

00:11 < JonRob> was talk of a new look and feel + usability research

00:11 < JonRob> but then that was my job so, guilty :S

00:12 this is good... because I want to sort of triage our "task list" and put at the top stuff that people care about.

00:12 so, jonrob, you still care about look & feel and usability, so that stays at the top of the list.

00:12 in your humble opinion, what are the top actions that need to be taken in that realm?

00:12 < CB6> usability wise the only thing I can think of is really just adding in ajax menu's that give suggestions and better organize the site

00:13 < JonRob> spevack, we want to do usability studies like mizmo did at FUDCon Boston, I'm willing to do more at brno

00:13 < JonRob> that was the next point we needed to get to, before moving on

00:13 < CB6> If the site is organized easily it will be a lot easier to update and migrate docs etc in the future

00:13 it's been a long standing debate as to what content to put on the frontpage

00:14 JonRob: do we have the results and data from Boston on the wiki?

00:14 < JonRob> spevack, i think it was just posted to the list, but it's easily findable

00:14 < JonRob> (only one result)

00:14 CB6, tw2113 we'll get to that next. one topic at a time is how i process things ;)

00:14 < CB6> sorry :)

00:15 JonRob: what sort of prep work do we need to do prior to brno?

00:15 CB6: no worries ;)

00:15 < JonRob> spevack, very little

00:15 that's what i like to hear!

00:15 < JonRob> we've got the list of qs based on mo's top ten list

00:15 < JonRob> we just need to sit down people and ask them to do it

00:15 < JonRob> and record the results

00:16 ok, i've made some notes about this on our task page. sounds like a good project.

00:16 ... signoff!#fedora-websites -> smooge("-ENOCAFFEINE")

00:16 and you and i can talk about it a bit further in brno

00:16 < JonRob> cool

00:16 i'm very excited to meet you.

00:16 btw, can we do that by having people ... screencast themselves while following the list?

00:16 side topic... JonRob were you on the hotel list?

00:16 < JonRob> heh, finally!

00:16 < JonRob> spevack, yeah

00:16 ok

00:17 < JonRob> i'm sharing with fab, he emailed me earlier offering chocolate and cheese from switzerland!

00:17 quaid: that would require istanbul on a machine, right? that should be trivial

00:17 that is, are we planning on exporting usability beyond the in-person efforts?

00:17 < JonRob> spevack, i already have it :)

00:17 < JonRob> quaid, we discussed it before

00:17 < JonRob> but we never got a time to test

00:18 < CB6> this task page is it kind of like a bug tracker for the development cycle that even the end user can sort of submit to?

00:18 ok, just a thought; maybe part of an ongoing effort of some kind to regularly test

00:18 < JonRob> quaid, sounds good :)

00:18 CB6: it's just a page on the wiki.

00:18 < JonRob> i wish i could work on that more before sept, but i'm packed out

00:19 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks

00:20 ok... CB6 and tw2113, you guys were briefly talking about content? how we decide what goes where?

00:20 < JonRob> speaking of being packed out, am going to head off 'cos i really badly need a good nights sleep!

00:20 JonRob: no worries, catch you later.

00:20 k johnrob take care

00:20 < JonRob> cheers all,

00:20 quaid: i'm guessing you have something to add here, based on the CMS threads?

00:20 'night JonRob, good to see yr nick :)

00:20 ... signoff!#fedora-websites -> JonRob

00:20 i was just recalling past debates

00:20 ok

00:20 there has been some confusion

00:20 quaid: also interested to get your thoughts on my initial comments

00:20 mostly on my blog in comments, actually

00:21 (I need to summarize those for the list or something)

00:21 ... join!#fedora-websites -> giarc(n=cwt@ool-435162cf.dyn.optonline.net)

00:21 < CB6> I'm thinking more infrastructure and search so that users can effectively get to where they want to with out using much resources on anyones part. Then of course just categorizing the key words I suppose.

00:21 keep talking, all. /me will return in about 2 minutes and read backward.

00:21 right, there are two sides to this:

00:21 what do we want the user xp to be?

00:21 what do we want/need the content manager xp to be?

00:21 xp == experience

00:22 < CB6> quaid I agree cms would be good. On the contrary a lot of good points were made in solidify the actual structure of it to insure people didn't make a mess using the cms

00:22 in terms of user xp, the kind of stuff CB6 is talking about fits there, I think.

00:22 so, one confusion

00:22 people are wondering if we mean to replace the wiki with a cms, or

00:23 otherwise force people to use a cms.

00:23 < CB6> drupal has wiki plugin for it

00:23 the answer to the first is, only with another wiki that is part of a CMS, and even then, that was not really part of my original point :)

00:23 the answer to the second is, that is not what the CMS is about, in terms of the problems

00:23 that Websites needs to solve

00:23 we have several sites that are under the control of Docs/Websites

00:24 that all require different methods to update, translate, etc.

00:24 so the initial scope, IMO, for a CMS is as a tool to help the content managers

00:24 I was told the kind of workflow that we use isn't the kind of workflow available in Drupal.

00:24 ylynfatt: heh, we use a workflow? :)

00:24 spevack: go ahead

00:24 < CB6> quaid is there a list of these sites? tw2113 and I were discussing this last night. It doesn't really specify what websites covers entirely (domains etc)

00:24 lol perhaps it was the workflow that the docs team uses?

00:24 first, i have to state that i have not read everything in this current CMS discussion, so there are details that currently escape me.

00:25 but this certainly isn't the first time that a discussion *like this* has come up.

00:25 ylynfatt: could be; is that the "write <=> edit => publish"? or "docbook"?

00:25 and i'm wondering how to describe it on the task list.

00:25 spevack: ok, here is the task:

00:25 and track the steps forward, whatever that even means at this point

00:25 quaid: I'm not sure, I was hoping to find out more about the workflow.

00:25 i basically told CB6 last night that anything with fedoraproject.org in the URL is offically sanctioned by the Fedora Project

00:25 Scope requirements for a potential usage of a CMS underneath specific content delivery sites

00:25 thats how i figure it

00:26 anything not including that, isn't official

00:26 ylynfatt: there are a bunch of DocBook XML and PO/POT things that we do in Docs that certainly aren't part of Drupal, but they don't need to be.

00:26 quaid: oh okay.

00:26 what does "specific content delivery sites" mean?

00:26 tw2113: yes, but there are parts of fedora*.org that are *not* under Websites purview, except for, "Make look pretty"

00:26 fedorapeople.org and fedorahosted.org are two

00:26 < CB6> the wsycgn editor or what ever it's called is I think a feature people were looking to appropriate but I've found often causes w3 errors

00:27 l10n.fp.org is also not Websites, per se

00:27 spevack: specific content delivery sites means:

00:27 the site in question last night was fedorasolved.org

00:27 any site whose purpose is to deliver content to people to read

00:27 *not* a site that makes it possible to edit content by e.g. every FAS member

00:27 so you are talking about different subsections of all the fedora domains? it's applicable to some, but not all?

00:27 tw2113: ah, yes, good point; all the fedoraunity.org sites are a third-party

00:27 same thing you're saying to tw2113

00:28 (one problem with the current meeting time is that the "meeting leader" is sleepy at midnight, and therefore slow on the uptake) ;)

00:28 example of content delivery sites:

00:28 www.fedoraproject.org

00:28 docs.fedoraproject.org

00:29 well, that's mainly it :)

00:29 ok

00:29 quaid thinks there must be another he is not thinking of

00:29 secrethiddensite.fedoraproject.org

00:29 www uses a cool Genshi templating system that is a hassle to manage content within

00:29 < CB6> spevack you could always reschedule meetings or setup a simple poll for users to come to a common time that works for everyone

00:29 docs uses the oldest Fedora web tools still left running

00:29 they've tried adam

00:29 < CB6> maybe it would be also appropriate in FAS to show common hours of availability

00:29 CB6: the Websites meeting time is a meeting unto itself :)

00:29 returns*

00:30 ok quaid, so scoping this stuff out. clearly you've already started it.

00:30 unrelated note: stay after the meeting for birthday cake and ice cream

00:30 lol

00:30 http://iquaid.org/2008/08/13/why-and-where-fedora-needs-a-cms-solution/ has all the comments, btw

00:30  (at iquaid.org)

00:30 tw2113: hah

00:30 < CB6> Mike is 25 today :)

00:30 in your mind, are you the obvious owner, and is there any sort of a general timeframe you'e hoping to operate in? (won't hold you too it, just something vague)

00:30 < CB6> tw2113 that is

00:30 off topic!

00:30 < CB6> lol

00:30 but still important!

00:31 hippo birdie two ewe!

00:31 we'll talk post meeting

00:31 ianweller wonders if anything has been brought up that relates to him or the wiki

00:31 spevack: for now I'm the owner, since this is across Docs and Websites, and I'm tired of it not being done :)

00:31 no ianweller

00:31 we're free-forming it so far

00:31 spevack: timeframe ... unclear, but let's discuss briefly

00:31 < CB6> spevack ya it gives users an idea of when it's possible for other FAS members to discuss things

00:31 k.

00:31 ricky made the good point that we want to try out on docs before www

00:31 a special happy birthday link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI

00:32 and since we are dangerously close to when mmcgrath is going to lock Infra changes for F10, I was thinking like this:

00:32 < CB6> I mean if everyone in websites was found to be most available during a certain period it would make sense

00:32 1. Scope need, vet solutions -- mid Sep.

00:32 spevack: somehow, i knew that would be rick astley

00:32 but i clicked anyway.

00:32 2. Bring up docs.fp.o -- early Oct.

00:32 3. Tweak through F10 release

00:33 4. After F10, migrate www. to tweaked solution

00:33 spevack copies quaids list directly to the tasks page

00:33 tw2113 needs to keep evolving new docs.fp.o look for the time being

00:33 since all of docs.fp.o writing and l10n happens off of the actual docs.fp.o site, we can do that without breaking any team flows

00:33 where if we do that to www, we are affecting actual in-progress workflows

00:33 also, *anything* is better than what we have at docs.fp.o, in terms of inviting in more people to help, etc.

00:34 tw2113: word! thanks for doing that, I've wanted it to look right for a while even if the underneath is still a bit of a mess.

00:34 quaid does not mean to disparage the solid and working tools underneach docs.fp.o, but they are showing their age

00:35 quaid: all seems very reasonable to me. what kind of community help do you have right now? sounds like tw2113 is interested in this as well... trying to make sure you're not having to do it all yourself.

00:35 I bet tfox and sopwith would be surprised we are still running it.

00:35 then again, they were @redhat.com ... so maybe not so surprised :D

00:35 yeah, i've looked at the files involved, almost seems like it could use a cleanup and better flow

00:35 < CB6> can we have a bit more specifics on the tasks page as it's relatively ambiguous in parts

00:35 spevack: right now, we need to get a proper scope; not put the cart before the horse

00:35 that seems like it's going OK

00:35 I am going to progress the on-list discusssion this week

00:35 quaid: ok, fair enough.

00:36 spevack just asks quesitons, some of them will be irrelevant :)

00:36 i have screenshots for those interested in giving feedback later

00:36 when we have a good enough scope, maybe even by the end of this month, we can start vetting the huge pile of CMS solutions

00:36 that one needs Infra involvement, too; I'll bring it there

00:36 I expect that the interested people will jump up at each stage :)

00:36 yeah

00:36 of course

00:36 i'm excited because it'd be my first websites contrib :D

00:37 hehe

00:37 < CB6> quaid can you specify the requirements of the CMS? I actually found a site that has CMS specs for over 1000 CMS systems

00:37 CB6: some of it should be in the blog post he made

00:37 http://iquaid.org/2008/08/13/why-and-where-fedora-needs-a-cms-solution/

00:37  (at iquaid.org)

00:38 < CB6> I read that earlier it was well done

00:38 CB6: yeah, that's what the thread on f-websites-l is doing, spec'ing the requirements

00:38 zodbot: you rock!

00:39 < CB6> I'll provide the link for everyone to look for the ideal solution and we can decide what works the best

00:40 what else do folks want to talk about tonight? there are a few other to-dos that need to be revitalized, but I think I will try to save those for a list conversation, where it can get more eyeballs, and some of the old owners from about a month ago

00:40 ianweller: when does school start?

00:41 should we talk about the docs.fp.o restyling?

00:41 spevack: wednesday, last week

00:41 quaid is good, happy to work this out a bit more with everyone

00:41 tw2113: go for it

00:41 I had a quick question

00:41 ylynfatt: you go first, then tw2113

00:41 Was working on the fp.o/contact page

00:42 ok

00:42 and wondered if when I'm putting what I've done so far on my fedoraproject space

00:42 if it should just be the .html file created

00:43 or all the files that were apart of the initial download of the fp.o files according to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/ShowUs

00:43 s/fedoraproject/fedorapeople/ ?

00:43 < CB6> quaid sorry f-websites-l???

00:43 CB6: f=fedora, l=list

00:43 CB6: most lists have that format, so we shorten f and l :)

00:44 http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-websites-list

00:44 < CB6> fedora websites list of to do list is the requirements?

00:44 ylynfatt: there is value in making your full tree of changes available, as well as the rendered pages

00:44 < CB6> ah ok thank you! lol I'm lost a little

00:44 CB6: it's like a contradance :)

00:44 < CB6> Is it at all possible for us to sort our thoughts in forum format?

00:44 quaid: okay so, then upload all of those files as well, even if it's just one new page added and no changes to the rest?

00:45 ylynfatt: well ... here's the theory, but you don't have to apply it:

00:45 (someone correct me where I'm wrong!)

00:45 if you do a git checkout _and_ do a git repository from your fedorapeople space

00:46 then someone else can checkout from your git repo as a way to edit, tweak, adjust, or reuse the work you do

00:46 CB6: traditionally we use the mailinglists for this kind of stuff.. fedoraforum.org is more of an end-user discussion place than a place where we work through actual technical work, and we don't have another set of forums.

00:46 and the whole thing can be committed back up the process to the main (original) git repo.

00:46 okay cool, yeah that makes sense.

00:46 +1 to what quaid is saying

00:46 with one small addendum, which is if you're doing something that is really pretty trivial, like maybe just a single page,

00:47 ylynfatt: so, if you just want to quickly show a direction you are taking, the HTML page is fine

00:47 and you just want people to see it and make quick comments, then do what works best for you

00:47 ylynfatt: but when you do want feedback, the full git repo lets other people work in that style, too, if they wish

00:47 i.e., the whole world loves a patch

00:47 spevack: near jinx, mate!

00:47 if we were doing major work on spins.fedoraproject.org, for example, we'd definitely use the model quaid is discussing.

00:47 quaid: i owe you a coke :)

00:47 < CB6> spevack could we possibly do a relatively private forum for projects?

00:48 CB6: one note on that is ...

00:48 CB6: a part of the typical floss developer culture is that mailing lists are preferred over web-based forums

00:48 quaid: thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it.

00:48 that is not 100% the case, but a "general consensus"

00:49 CB6: but that is not to say that there is not a good use for forums that is different than what fedoraforum.org is doing.

00:49 < CB6> I'll have to adopt the methodology in this case.

00:49 being able to go through list archives offline == priceless

00:49 k well that's it for my question. I hope to post something soon.

00:49 ylynfatt: cool, i'll add that to our tasks page. thanks!

00:49 tw2113: did you want to talk about docs a bit?

00:49 maybe one way we can support fedoraforum.org as a stand-alone project is to use it's forum capabilities for e.g. open discussions across all types of community members

00:49 i know i brought it up in the marketing meeting last thursday, but this may be a better minded meeting for it. http://michaelbox.net/docs/docsfpo.png

00:49 that's the latest screenshot of what i'm seeing locally

00:49 without requiring membership in a list; good for wide open polls

00:49 quaid makes a note of that for Marketing ...

00:49 < CB6> It's nice to be able to lay out in front of you compiled ideas and directions so everyones on the same page for the development cycle is what I'm pointing at

00:50 spevack: okay cool.

00:50 and i'm just needing some ideas of what you all think could be worked on to keep bringing docs to a modern look and feel

00:50 tw2113: oh yeah, I mean to reply to that somewhere I saw it

00:50 tw2113: that does certainly look like the current look&feel

00:50 nice job

00:50 +1 to stickster's comment that you can feel free to modernize the tabling in the middle

00:50 imported the right css file and renamed some id tags ;)

00:51 tw2113: here is the tough part of that ...

00:51 quaid thinks for a second ...

00:51 tw2113: you have looked at the rendered document pages, right?

00:51 < CB6> web 2.0 with CSS is definitely possible

00:51 i'm going to adopt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_(operating_system) and make it a featured article. that's my task for the month

00:51 ... nick!stickster -> stickster_food

00:51 tw2113: have you had any luck with the look/feel and the document sub-dirs?

00:52 from what i've browsed through, all the content areas stay the same on all pages

00:52 ianweller: i've always been afraid to edit those pages too much for fear of someone accusing Red Hat of violating wikipedia etiquitte

00:52 tw2113: I don't want that to be a time waster for you if we are going to soon revamp how those are generated, but ... I think the time in learning what classes the DocBook uses by default is workthwile

00:52 it's templated enough that the content is consistent

00:52 ok, cool

00:52 *whew*

00:52 spevack: i is a community membar :D

00:53 if anything, we could perhaps set up a testing directory

00:53 and i could cvs what I have over and have others test it

00:53 ianweller: yep

00:53 before we push it live

00:53 would we want to do that?

00:54 so far, all i have left listed to play with is the tables in the content area

00:54 and perhaps keep trying to get the "download" and "FAQ" text to line up with the images up at the top

00:55 the testing directory is really what i'd end up wanting at this point

00:55 that way others can feedback without having to resort to a simple screenshot

00:55 tw2113: have you had luck in getting the local mod_php stuff working to server docs.fp.o via localhost?

00:56 giarc has been reading back scroll, CB6 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/DomainsList

00:56 no idea

00:56 tw2113: because I'm a reckless type; if it works in a sandbox, then let's push it live and tweak it live :)

00:56 < CB6> ty

00:56 tw2113: one sec, let me get that URL

00:56 i did set up a sandbox using the tut on docs.fp.o and have seen working php and whatnot

00:56 tw2113: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EditingFedoraRedhatCom

00:57 so far, the only difference i see between mine and the live version is the url

00:57 and my CSS tweaks

00:59 quaid, if you want me to push it live, i can with a bit of help ;)

00:59 awesome

01:00 tw2113: sure, we can talk on #fedora-docs

01:00 you can actually push the changes up but not tag them LIVE, so we can double-check the work that wayu

01:00 that sounds wonderful

01:00 that's all i have really

01:01 oh, I'm all good with being odne

01:01 'done

01:01 any objections?

01:02 cream*

01:02 care if i call it spevack ?

01:03 ... signoff!#fedora-websites -> daMaestro(Remote closed the connection)

01:03 < CB6> getting quiet in here

01:03 MEETING ADJOURNED!

01:04 well done :)

01:04 thanks for coming, guys

01:04 haha

01:04 good to finally be able to make it to a meeting

01:04 pleasure speaking with you all

01:04 likewise