Meeting:IRC Support Channel log 20080731

= 2008 July 31 IRC Support Meeting =

Problem Scope
IRC support needs to be improved. There is a shortage of good helpers, and operators to maintain order in the #fedora channel. The channel has many "non helpfull" helpers in it. Support is sometimes inconsistent or not present. We should be able to organize support efforts, attract more helpers and assist more users.

Items Discussed

 * Should and IRC Support SIG be formed?
 * The general consensus was that a SIG would be beneficial to the group.
 * Remove the +v stuff from helpers for now until we decide to use it.
 * Code of Conduct
 * Needs to be updated and reviewed.
 * Helpers
 * Currently not enough people to support running in shifts.
 * How can we get more people involved in helping so that we can setup shifts?
 * Tableed the topic of scheduling until we have a way to do it and decide we want to for sure.
 * Helpers would also require access to #fedora-ops to settle disputes and allow for the Channel Operators to monitor the disputes and assist in resolution.
 * Progress?
 * Some days are better than others.
 * Continue directing off-topic discussions to #fedora-social.
 * Directing people to #fedora-social tends to lead to those people ranting in that channel.
 * Free discussion
 * See meeting logs for details

Action Items

 * Have Red Hat lawyers look into the legalities of referring to livna. Assigned: Tom Callaway (DONE)
 * Legals response was to post the following disclaimer in the channel: "Any advice you read here is provided by individual community members. You should use it at your OWN RISK. This advice is owned by each individual, and does NOT represent the views of Freenode, Fedora or Red Hat" This was done by modifying the chanserv message to display that disclaimer to every person who enters the channel.
 * Form SIG.    Assigned:
 * Invite the Fedora Documentation personnel to assist in reviewing our pages.    Assigned: Scott Glaser
 * Modify/Define the code of conduct for Participants/Helpers/Ops.    Assigned: All Operators
 * Define the requirements for a #fedora Bot.    Assigned:

Misc

 * The next IRC Support Team meeting will take place in #fedora-meeting beginning 15:30 UTC on 7 August 2008.
 * Figure out how to get more helpers/schedule shifts.

Long term ideas

 * A 'support wizard' type app. Users could be directed to it to gather information and also point them to solutions for common problems (This could be shared with other support types).
 * Guidelines and orginization around all support types (mailing lists, talk, forums).
 * A channel bot for various needs.

Log
Jul 31 11:30:04 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Init process. Jul 31 11:30:09 *	Sonar_Guy is here but may be in and out. Jul 31 11:30:12 	who all is here? Jul 31 11:30:23 	me, but i'm in the back Jul 31 11:30:27 	i don't count Jul 31 11:30:30 *	ianweller lurks Jul 31 11:30:41 	mock: everybody's welcome! :P Jul 31 11:31:14 	I'm in Jul 31 11:31:29 	JeroenVanMeeuwen if we're doing a WikiWikiName RollCall Jul 31 11:32:29 	I guess with the new wiki, that would be User:FASName. ;) Jul 31 11:32:39 	jbwillia Jul 31 11:33:10 	zcat Jul 31 11:33:10 	argh, User:Kanarip Jul 31 11:33:15 	what a surprises, huh? Jul 31 11:33:52 *	nirik will wait a minute or two more for folks to join in. Jul 31 11:34:27 	:) Jul 31 11:34:28 	I'll note that I am running on low sleep, so may be more incoherent than usual. ;) Jul 31 11:34:56 	ok, I think we have a number of folks now... so lets get started. Jul 31 11:35:07 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Op's code Jul 31 11:35:17 	anyone have anything further for the operators code ? Jul 31 11:35:39 	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Operators Jul 31 11:35:41 	is that like the hippocratic oath? Jul 31 11:36:21 	I was wondering if we shouldn't call it Operator guidelines or something. It's not really                        a code of conduct... more a list of rules to enforce. Jul 31 11:37:25 	Operator Guidelines sounds good to me Jul 31 11:37:33 	yup, +1 Jul 31 11:38:05 	how do we keep track of number of offenses? :/ Jul 31 11:38:17 	nirik:  +1 Jul 31 11:38:21 	in ones head? Jul 31 11:38:26 	ianweller: Perhaps a wiki? Jul 31 11:38:34 	ianweller: currently informally... in the fedora-ops channel... Jul 31 11:38:41 	ok that works Jul 31 11:38:53 	also, it's sometimes hard when people change ip's and/or nicks. Jul 31 11:38:55 	other than that looked great :D Jul 31 11:39:00 	nirik: right Jul 31 11:39:14 	ok, shall we move on then? Jul 31 11:39:19 	+1 Jul 31 11:39:34 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - New ops Jul 31 11:40:17 *	nirik gets the list Jul 31 11:41:03 	daMaestro, kanarip, thomasj, Edgan, zcat, Khaytsus were proposed last meeting. Jul 31 11:41:13 	+1 to all Jul 31 11:41:27 	do we know that they all want to serve? Jul 31 11:41:29 	assuming they wish to take on the responsibility Jul 31 11:41:32 	+1 to thomasj zcat and Khaytsus Jul 31 11:41:42 	I didn't hear much in the way of objection. Jul 31 11:41:55 	nope, i've accepted Jul 31 11:42:05 	can we trust the dutch? ;) Jul 31 11:42:05 	thomasj does Jul 31 11:42:10 	+1 to all Jul 31 11:42:18 	spot: one can never be sure. ;) Jul 31 11:42:22 	noted that i'm not online helping and chatting as much as say, any other given operator Jul 31 11:42:47 	(I don't know the others, my failure to vote for them should not be construed as                                a vote against them) Jul 31 11:42:57 *	nirik doesn't see edgan around too much these days... Jul 31 11:43:16 	i only know most of those folks indirectly (notable exceptions, daMaestro and kanarip) Jul 31 11:43:33 	kanarip but the main thing is you are awake while we are normally asleep Jul 31 11:43:38 	there's an operator guideline... "don't just disappear off the face of the earth" Jul 31 11:43:48 	nirik: I think we need to have anybody that becomes an op estabilish an account on                                FAS if they have not done so already. Jul 31 11:44:04 	good idea Jul 31 11:44:07 	Sonar_Guy: that would be good, yes... to allow wiki editing, etc. Jul 31 11:44:21 	maybe even create a group in FAS? Jul 31 11:44:27 	Yup and to have a valid e-mail contact address Jul 31 11:44:42 	kanarip: +1 Jul 31 11:44:59 	ok, shall we vote on each person? on them all? check and make sure each are willing first (for those that have not said so) Jul 31 11:45:08 	.fas zcat Jul 31 11:45:17 	oh that's still disabled for privacy? Jul 31 11:45:19 	zcat: I think the bot is busted currently Jul 31 11:45:48 	well, kanarip is here... so: vote on kanarip ? Jul 31 11:45:50 	+1 from me. Jul 31 11:45:55 	1 Jul 31 11:46:00 	+1 Jul 31 11:46:03 	+ Jul 31 11:46:07 	+1 Jul 31 11:46:13 	+! Jul 31 11:46:14 	+1 Jul 31 11:46:16 	+1 Jul 31 11:46:31 *	mock is amused Jul 31 11:47:16 	well, thats 6 out of the 19 ops (althought the list is still needing pruned) Jul 31 11:47:21 	daMaestro has said he would in the past, thomasj would be a fantastic op Jul 31 11:47:48 	ok, zcat is also here... zcat: willing to serve? Jul 31 11:47:59 	for what it's worth, +1 thomasj Jul 31 11:48:32 	nirik, sure thing. Jul 31 11:48:33 	+1 to thomasj Jul 31 11:48:39 	+1 zcat Jul 31 11:48:42 	+1 zcat Jul 31 11:48:42 	+1 to all Jul 31 11:48:46 	+1 Jul 31 11:48:52 	+1 to zcat Jul 31 11:48:56 	+1 Jul 31 11:49:06 	+1 zcat, +1 thomasj Jul 31 11:49:25 	ohw, just zcat this round Jul 31 11:49:35 	ok. Have we heard from thomasj that he would be willing? Jul 31 11:49:43 	nirik: yes Jul 31 11:49:56 	sorry i was just working. anything i missed? Jul 31 11:49:57 	ok, then votes on thomasj? Jul 31 11:49:59 	+1 zcat Jul 31 11:50:00 	+1 Jul 31 11:50:03 <Sonar_Guy>	+1 Jul 31 11:50:04 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 Jul 31 11:50:06 	+1 thomasj Jul 31 11:50:15 	che: voting in some more ops... trying to get more time coverage as well as spread the load. Jul 31 11:50:22 	+1 thomasj Jul 31 11:50:23 	+1 thomasj Jul 31 11:50:26 	nirik, good stuff Jul 31 11:50:32 	+1 zcat :D Jul 31 11:51:19 	ok, who else do we know for sure is willing to serve? damaestro? Jul 31 11:51:19 	Where does the list of ops exist, anyway? Jul 31 11:51:31 	sgallagh: /cs access #fedora list Jul 31 11:51:34 	sgallagh: /msg chanserv access #fedora list Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	Entry Nickname/Host         Flags Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	- -- - Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	1    dgilmore               +votriRA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	2    che                    +votsriRfA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	3    micro_sonar_guy        +votriRA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	4    Southern_Gentlem       +votriRA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	5    foolish                +votriRA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	6    ivazquez               +votsriRfA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	7    mutk                   +votsriRfA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	8    Pix                    +votsriRfA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	9    |Jef|                  +votsriRfA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	10   spot                   +votsriRfA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	11   Warren                 +votsriRfAF [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	12   Sopwith                +votriRA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	13   Anvilou                +votsriRfA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	14   Avatraxiom             +votriRA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	15   rjune                  +votriRA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	16   Corwyn                 +votriRA [modified ? ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	17   nirik                  +votsriRAb [modified 4 weeks, 6 days, 20:04:23 ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	18   roguedaemon            +votsriRAb [modified 4 weeks, 6 days, 20:04:16 ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	19   ender                  +votsriRfA [modified 4 weeks, 6 days, 01:19:23 ago] Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	- -- - Jul 31 11:51:35 -ChanServ-	End of #fedora FLAGS listing. Jul 31 11:51:36 <Southern_Gentlem>	sgallagh, /msg chanserv access #fedora list Jul 31 11:51:51 	Look for the "o" flag. Jul 31 11:51:55 	Thank you Jul 31 11:52:41 	Can anyone nominate an op, or only existing ops? Jul 31 11:52:51 	ok, I would be willing to defer the others until we know if they want to serve/have time, etc. Jul 31 11:53:10 *	Sonar_Guy steps out for a minute Jul 31 11:53:12 <Southern_Gentlem>	daMaestro has said yes nirik Jul 31 11:53:29 	ok, vote on daMaestro: Jul 31 11:53:35 	+1 Jul 31 11:53:42 	+1 from me Jul 31 11:53:44 	+1 Jul 31 11:53:45 ---	sdziallas is now known as sdziallas_away Jul 31 11:53:54 <Southern_Gentlem>	=1 Jul 31 11:54:00 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 Jul 31 11:54:06 <Southern_Gentlem>	sgallagh, yep Jul 31 11:54:16 	+1 all Jul 31 11:54:45 	ok, no objections. Jul 31 11:54:57 	shall we defer the others until we can talk to them? Jul 31 11:55:00 	Southern_Gentlem: I'd like to nominate vwbusguy Jul 31 11:55:01 <Southern_Gentlem>	yes Jul 31 11:55:47 	sgallagh: ok. I can ask them and we can discuss it next meeting? Jul 31 11:55:59 *	sgallagh nods. Jul 31 11:56:33 *	Southern_Gentlem moves the removal of Corwyn, rjune, Avatraxiom frpm the ops list Jul 31 11:56:59 	Southern_Gentlem: yeah, those are the non responders/never around folks... Jul 31 11:57:34 	shall we move on? Jul 31 11:57:45 <Southern_Gentlem>	shall we vote of those Jul 31 11:57:55 <Sonar_Guy>	+1 damaestro Jul 31 11:58:18 <Southern_Gentlem>	shall we vote of the removal of those from the ops list Jul 31 11:58:25 	sure, we can... Jul 31 11:58:26 <Sonar_Guy>	+1 Jul 31 11:58:29 	+1 Jul 31 11:58:29 	+1 to removing them Jul 31 11:58:33 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 Jul 31 11:58:35 	+1 from me, they have failed to respond and are never around. Jul 31 11:58:57 	I haven't seen Corwyn or rjune as of late. Jul 31 11:59:13 	rjune is in channel Jul 31 11:59:28 	Huh. So he is. Jul 31 11:59:28 <Sonar_Guy>	but not on any sort of regular basis Jul 31 11:59:36 <Southern_Gentlem>	but not responding Jul 31 11:59:46 <Southern_Gentlem>	first time in 6 months Jul 31 12:00:23 	heh Last seen : Jun 16 14:30:55 2008 (6 weeks, 3 days, 01:28:47 ago) Jul 31 12:00:25 	As for Avatraxiom, I only ever see him come around to fix buggbot. Jul 31 12:00:26 	also, sopwith, dgilmore and ender said they would be willing to help on a emerg or as                        needed basis... ie, if no other ops are around. Jul 31 12:01:23 	i hate to rush this along, but i am hungry... is there any other pending business? Jul 31 12:01:46 <Southern_Gentlem>	spot yes please edit the op list to reflect the changes please Jul 31 12:01:54 	sorry... I was going to ask if we should brainstorm about a bot... but we could do that some other time. Jul 31 12:02:23 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support meeting - Progress? Jul 31 12:02:40 	how is our progress? channel getting better? people getting more help? Jul 31 12:02:54 	Southern_Gentlem: done Jul 31 12:03:00 <Southern_Gentlem>	spot ty Jul 31 12:03:10 	(well, i removed the three, i didn't add anyone) Jul 31 12:03:26 <Sonar_Guy>	I feel that they are getting better support Jul 31 12:03:53 <Sonar_Guy>	but more and more trolls/non-fedora users looking for help appears to be                                increasing also. Jul 31 12:04:03 <Southern_Gentlem>	add kanarip, daMaestro, thomasj please Jul 31 12:04:15 	and zcat Jul 31 12:04:21 <Southern_Gentlem>	and zcat Jul 31 12:04:22 	i've been playing with supybot a little bit (/whois zmore). if a limited bot is                        wanted in #fedora, i guess we need a list requirements before modding it. here's                        a shortlist:  http://rafb.net/p/JkyNjb69.html Jul 31 12:04:37 	all of them are added now Jul 31 12:04:38 *	kc8hfi agrees with Sonar_Guy Jul 31 12:04:48 	I think we will want a bot, but we need to make sure it's setup right. Jul 31 12:04:53 	spot: thanks! Jul 31 12:05:34 	what can we do to attract more good helpers/question answerers? Jul 31 12:06:34 *	spot sneaks out and goes to lunch Jul 31 12:06:37 *	nirik was wondering if we could start trying the targeted help in an area at a                        scheduled time thing... ie, con cebbert to be available for kernel q's, or the like. Jul 31 12:06:39 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik, i hate to say it but time Jul 31 12:06:50 	spot: have a good lunch! Jul 31 12:06:52 	nirik: The best way to create more question answerers would be to teach newbies well and hope they grow up to be like Southern_Gentlem :) Jul 31 12:07:15 <Southern_Gentlem>	sgallagh, you have notice i am trying with dj Jul 31 12:07:39 *	nirik was also very intrigued by ivazquez's idea of a support wizard thing...                         might cut down on some of the more basic questions... and at least get us more info. Jul 31 12:08:29 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: +1 to the wizard, but how do we ultimately implement something like that? Jul 31 12:08:47 *	ianweller goes and gets the pixie dust Jul 31 12:08:57 	I had envisioned something a bit more complete than just a wizard. Jul 31 12:08:58 	Sonar_Guy: it would need a web interface, etc... would have to be someone who is                         interested in that kind of thing. ;) Jul 31 12:09:08 *	Southern_Gentlem directs all to                        http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Maximizing_Support_from_IRC Jul 31 12:09:27 <Southern_Gentlem>	that needs dont ask to ask but i have no idea how to word it Jul 31 12:09:28 	Well, for the questions that get asked a lot, we could consider having a bot auto-respond with a link to the appropriate fedorasolved.org page Jul 31 12:09:46 	zcat kinda has that already, doesn't he? Jul 31 12:09:53 	!question ? Jul 31 12:09:57 	Yeah, I'm suggesting we enhance it Jul 31 12:10:02 ---	rdieter is now known as rdieter_away Jul 31 12:10:05 	sgallagh: yeah, but that leads to abuse... the bot needs to respond to only some pool of people... Jul 31 12:10:18 	abuse how? Jul 31 12:10:26 <Southern_Gentlem>	sgallagh, we have had bad times with bots in the past Jul 31 12:10:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	spamming the bot thus spamming the channel Jul 31 12:10:59 	sgallagh: repeating the question over and over to get the bot to spew to channel. Jul 31 12:11:03 	Well, what about responding by private message? Jul 31 12:11:05 <Southern_Gentlem>	any bot will have to respond out of channel Jul 31 12:11:05 	It could PM the asker. Jul 31 12:11:19 <Southern_Gentlem>	right that is one requirment Jul 31 12:11:24 	or /notice Jul 31 12:11:47 	so its in channel for them Jul 31 12:11:50 	Also, a bot could be configured not to respond to the same user more often than every five minutes... Jul 31 12:11:57 	sgallagh, regex autoreponse only works for some specific problems otherwise there's tons of false positives. !trigger is a different thing. ops&helpers should be unthrottled, and can trigger via channel or message. regular users can trigger inchannel, but get the response via privmsg. Jul 31 12:12:31 	if regular could get their channel inchannel as well, it'd need a good rate throttle Jul 31 12:12:41 	s/channel/response/ Jul 31 12:12:56 	yeah, all these things could be, and should be done... we just need to make sure it's well tested before letting the mass of #fedora hammer on it. ;) Jul 31 12:13:26 	also might be nice to run it on a fedora box and have it tied into FAS/etc. Jul 31 12:13:26 <Sonar_Guy>	right, what if we put it in the -ops channel for testing/tweaking? Jul 31 12:13:45 	Sonar_Guy: I think we need to gather more requirements before even starting to test. Jul 31 12:14:04 <Sonar_Guy>	I think we start with what zcat has listed now. Jul 31 12:14:10 	we might also look at what other large channels do for bots... Jul 31 12:14:30 <Sonar_Guy>	get that functionality working and then look to refine from there. Jul 31 12:15:15 	yeah, all the things on that list look good to me Jul 31 12:15:40 	zcat: you willing to make a prototype bot and start testing? Jul 31 12:16:44 	sure. i'm not configured atm. Jul 31 12:17:17 	.rainbow [calc 2**30] Jul 31 12:17:17 	zcat: 4 Jul 31 12:17:18 	ok, I would say testing in fedora-ops, or some private channel for now? Jul 31 12:17:20 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 Jul 31 12:17:24 	.uptime Jul 31 12:17:25 	zcat: I have been running for 3 hours, 51 minutes, and 58 seconds. Jul 31 12:17:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	-ops and -unity Jul 31 12:17:54 	if everything can be done with out of the box supybot, we might look at combining things with zodbot Jul 31 12:18:03 	ricky and i have used #fedora-supybot for bot testing, go ahead and use it Jul 31 12:18:20 <Sonar_Guy>	zcat: is there any way to have it source the ops list from the channel vice manually adding the ops for admin? Jul 31 12:18:30 	ianweller, sure. i've just been using #zcat Jul 31 12:18:56 *	nirik down the road thinks it would be good to get a bot syncing freenode access lists with FAS groups. Jul 31 12:19:10 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: +1 Jul 31 12:20:09 	anyhow, any further business today Jul 31 12:20:11 	? Jul 31 12:20:21 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - open floor Jul 31 12:20:40 *	Southern_Gentlem directs all to                        http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Maximizing_Support_from_IRC Jul 31 12:20:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	that needs dont ask to ask but i have no idea how to word it Jul 31 12:21:36 	"Do not ask if you may ask a question. All on-topic discussions and inquiries are welcome." Jul 31 12:21:47 	ivazquez: +1 Jul 31 12:22:12 	also, there should be something about not doing the "hey, does anyone here use foobar" Jul 31 12:22:22 	what about having some info already at hand? Jul 31 12:22:38 	please provide which fedora, which kernel... Jul 31 12:22:38 *	Southern_Gentlem directs mock to                        http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Maximizing_Support_from_IRC Jul 31 12:23:08 *	nirik also notes that we should look at using smolt more. Jul 31 12:23:40 	Yeah, my idea was to integrate that into the wizard before sending them into a chat session. Jul 31 12:23:59 	ivazquez: do you see this as a web app? or a desktop app? or both? Jul 31 12:24:30 *	ianweller sees a desktop app Jul 31 12:24:40 	It would be possible to do as a web app, but it would be easier as a desktop app with an                                intergrated browser. Jul 31 12:24:50 	I think it's a great idea... if there is anything I can do to assist you guys getting it going, let me know. Jul 31 12:25:05 	Mostly because Jabber-over-HTTP doesn't appeal to me. Jul 31 12:25:10 	ivazquez: :) Jul 31 12:25:17 *	Sonar_Guy sees it as a dbus aware desktop app, that starts pigden connecting to #fedora. Jul 31 12:25:35 	Or it could just use telepathy. Jul 31 12:25:53 *	mock wants telepathy Jul 31 12:25:54 	yeah I was gonna say, there's already modern dbus-style libs for IM Jul 31 12:26:29 *	nirik sees "user foobar has joined #fedora, ticket #1211,                        http://helpdesk.fedoraproject.org/ticket/1211, needs help with "upgrade problem on                         fedora 9/x86_64" Jul 31 12:26:31 <Southern_Gentlem>	wwoods,  better yet when is that mind-reading plugin for irc going to be ready Jul 31 12:26:48 <Sonar_Guy>	that way it does not try to connect to irc if there is no network connection, it would                                have to rely on information contained on the disk drive Jul 31 12:26:51 	telepathy has some issues Jul 31 12:27:02 	but dont let that stop things Jul 31 12:27:21 	telepathy, pidgin, Twisted... I'm not really picky. Jul 31 12:27:44 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: that would be nice if we could tie smolt into the equation to get hardware information. Jul 31 12:27:52 	Sonar_Guy: yeah, agreed. Jul 31 12:28:16 	anyhow, any further irc support topics/business? Jul 31 12:28:24 	or shall we call it a meeting? Jul 31 12:28:39 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 Jul 31 12:28:46 *	nirik will try and contact the other ops nominees and make sure they want to serve and we can discuss them next week. Jul 31 12:29:38 	thanks folks! Jul 31 12:29:38 	--Meeting end--