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18:28 < gregdek> /me looks around.
18:29 -!- gregdek changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Ambassadors North America: Tuesday, July 15th, 9pm Eastern US time
18:55 < gregdek> 7 minutes to meeting time.  :)
19:00 < gregdek> 2 minutes to meeting time.
19:02 < gregdek> DING!
19:02 < gregdek> ROLL CALL!
19:02 < lxmaier_home> AlexMaier
19:02 < pcalarco> PascalCalarco
19:03 < inode0> JohnRose
19:03 * gregdek waits a minute or two for stragglers.
19:05 < herlo> herlo
19:05 < gregdek> All right.
19:05 < gregdek> So, we've got four North American ambassadors. Well done.
19:05 < herlo> thanks for holding the meeting later, I really appreciate it :)
19:06 < gregdek> My pleasure.  :)
19:06 < gregdek> So let me start with a very blunt first question:
19:06 < gregdek> What purpose does this meeting serve?
19:06 < pcalarco> !
19:06 < inode0> who called it? :)
19:07 < gregdek> pcalarco: This meeting is too small for the formalities. Speak your mind.  :)
19:07 < herlo> I don't think he's asking to actually know...
19:07 < pcalarco> ok :)
19:07 < pcalarco> it seems like we've mostly used the meetings for updates on upcoming cons, media requests and such, from the time I have attended
19:07 < herlo> I think gregdek has an idea where he wants this meeting to go and is giving us an opportunity to drive at it...
19:08 < inode0> I'd like to see something materialize to get some juices flowing in the NA group - it needs an injection to get off life support
19:08 < pcalarco> I think the time could be more constructively used
19:08 * herlo agrees
19:09 < gregdek> OK.
19:09 * gregdek goes into rambling old man mode. Ready?  :)
19:09 < herlo> One thing I'd like to see is a way to help ambassadors spread the word a bit more.
19:10 < lxmaier_home> bring it on!
19:10 < herlo> yep
19:10 < pcalarco> sure :)
19:10 < ke4qqq> sure
19:10 < gregdek> So when we created the ambassadors group, what, going on three years ago, Alex?
19:11 < lxmaier_home> something like that
19:11 < gregdek> The goal was straightforward and ambitious:
19:11 < gregdek> To have a significant Fedora presence at every event in the world.
19:11 < gregdek> With "event" being loosely defined.
19:11 < gregdek> From my perspective, that is still a worthwhile goal.
19:12 < gregdek> And I think we've come a long way towards that goal.
19:12 < gregdek> I think it's important to have a fairly focused goal, because that increases the chance of actually achieving it.
19:12 < gregdek> So, ladies and gentlemen, for North America -- is that still the correct goal?
19:13 < gregdek> I open the floor.
19:13 * inode0 doesn't really think so
19:13 < inode0> in NA redhat covers so many conferences ambassadors might be more productive spreading the word more regionally
19:14 < inode0> local FUGs, university talks, etc.
19:14 < pcalarco> +1
19:14 < lxmaier_home> a mission statement, a goal, needs to be clear and actionable. our original goal was a bit broad but very actionable. you see an "event" and so you make sure you represent fedora there.
19:14 < lxmaier_home> event=local LUG, school science fair, you name it
19:15 < lxmaier_home> so in a way, inode0 we agree on this one
19:15 < herlo> the biggest problem with that goal is enabling ambassadors quickly and easily.
19:15 < lxmaier_home> herlo: do you mean an infrastructure to enable ambassadors?
19:15 < herlo> no
19:15 < herlo> hold on, more to say
19:15 < ke4qqq> Having been around and observing most of those years, I think EMEA ambassadors do a better job than NA does. I don't know why, perhaps just perception. I'd also like to see significant presence more firmly defined. I agree with herlo - most events I have been in I haven't had months of planning, and tend to be smaller - and it's a difficult job getting the resources on hand that fast.
19:16 < herlo> well, it could be some infrastructure, but more like a standard procedure with tools at every turn. I think a lot about how Ubuntu succeeds in marketing its brand
19:16 < inode0> who represents Fedora at Linux World? do ambassadors or does Red Hat?
19:16 < herlo> while our brand is different, I find that we have a lot of the common goals. Get people to use Fedora
19:17 < inode0> I think this is where EMEA and NA are just different because of Red Hat's presence
19:17 < herlo> and to do that, we need to have a way of providing people a quick easy experience
19:17 < herlo> Every time I want to share that word with people, I burn cds, but sometimes I find them to be a little less than professional
19:17 < lxmaier_home> inode0: red hat in emea hardly goes to local/regional events -- i am not even sure they were at linuxTag
19:17 < herlo> so I usually spend a good bit of time making labels and preparing sleeves, etc among other things
19:18 < herlo> going to a LUG meeting, I can get a forum, but I really need a topic
19:18 < gregdek> How much of the difference between NA events and the rest of the world has to do with the relative maturity of Linux is NA?
19:18 < lxmaier_home> herlo: that's a good idea I think i am hearing: a talk topic repo?
19:18 < herlo> some of those are easy, others are hard, but promoting fedora should be based upon simplistic, measureable ways to get in front of as many people as we can...
19:18 < herlo> lxmaier_home: hey...
19:18 < ke4qqq> Greg, could be - I think Alex has a point - the EMEA Ambassadors seem pretty self-sufficient, while we heavily rely on RH.
19:19 < herlo> lxmaier_home: sounds good
19:19 < gregdek> Fair point.
19:19 < ke4qqq> lxmaier_home: didn't we used to have some 'canned' presentations that Rahul and Chitlesh worked up, around FC5 or 6?
19:19 < gregdek> The self-sufficiency of EMEA ambassadors seems to empower them, to drive them to *want* to do more.
19:19 < ke4qqq> exactly!
19:19 < gregdek> Since they own the Fedora brand in Europe.
19:20 < ke4qqq> while we seem to be waiting for some sanction
19:20 < lxmaier_home> what i meant earlier when i said "infrastructure" was basically that: a set of procedures and some content to enable self-sufficient ambassadors to do whatever they think needs to be done
19:20 < herlo> a talk topic repo is good, but I think there are more things we can do
19:20 < herlo> lxmaier_home: I saw that after you mentioned it, I should have been less quick to react
19:20 < pcalarco> EventBox, for example
19:20 < lxmaier_home> ke4qqq: yeah, we did. I am certain they're still on the wiki
19:21 < ke4qqq> we talked about 'ambassador kits' (and I am sorry to beat a dead horse, but I remember that from back when you first sent emails to LUGs, Greg. Why aren't we sending out a 'kit' at every release to ambassadors with pressed CD/DVDs, etc.
19:21 < herlo> event boxes seem to be hard to build, but an event kit, I could get behind. Something simple...
19:22 < lxmaier_home> ke4qqq: money? and also lack of volunteers to run the logistict
19:22 < pcalarco> agreed
19:22 < herlo> yeah, stickers, hats, etc...
19:22 < lxmaier_home> not to say that we *shouldn't* try to do that
19:22 < lxmaier_home> just stating what i perceive to be the reason why we didn't
19:22 < inode0> well, I'd like to toss out a suggestion
19:23 < gregdek> Shoot.
19:23 < ke4qqq> lxmaier_home: I'd agree - but RHNA is already sending out the stuff - I have asked Greg and Max and FAMSCO to send stuff for events and it gets sent to me every time. It seems like we waste more time going through the appropriations process than anything else.
19:23 < inode0> rather than events per se how about shifting the focus to talks given, something quantifiable
19:24 * herlo actually thinks that it'd be nice just to *have* the stuff on hand. No event necessary
19:24 < inode0> shoot for a goal of X talks given wherever by NA ambassadors in support of F10
19:24 < lxmaier_home> ke4qqq: i have been out of the loop for a while, so i don't know how cumbersome the current approval process is.
19:24 < ke4qqq> herlo: exactly.
19:24 < herlo> maybe justification, but why an event?
19:24 < inode0> try to beat that for F11
19:24 < ke4qqq> lxmaier_home: well most people circumvent the process now, and call someone at RH who fedexes stuff - at least that's my perception from talking with others
19:24 < lxmaier_home> i think we are talking about hte same thing, just disagreeing about semantics of the word "event"
19:25 < gregdek> The current approval process for NA is incredibly vague.
19:25 < ke4qqq> but the process isn't much different than when you were actively involved, Alex.
19:25 < lxmaier_home> i would say event is anything where more than one person is present and an ambassador speaks about fedora
19:25 < herlo> so lets put approval process on a list and start hammering it out
19:25 < gregdek> So here's the thing...
19:26 < gregdek> ...I don't think it's as simple as an approval process for how RH gets schwag to NA ambassadors.
19:26 < gregdek> I think it's a broader question of who *owns* NA ambassadors.
19:26 < ke4qqq> so why not at every Fedora release offer people with a current CLA and ambassadors membership the opportunity to 'order' a kit with some Fedora art and CDs and maybe some stickers.
19:26 < herlo> ke4qqq: I think we're getting to that now
19:26 < lxmaier_home> i hoped back in my day that the approval process will go like this: 0. ambassador wants to do something like a LUG talk 1. ambassador wants to give out schwag 2. ambassador says to the famsco why s/he needs the money/schwag 3. ambassador gets the schwag
19:27 < herlo> lxmaier_home: I like it
19:27 < herlo> gregdek: what do you mean *owns* NA Ambassadors?
19:27 < herlo> is that an internal RH thing?
19:27 < gregdek> It is precisely *not* an internal RH thing.
19:28 < lxmaier_home> so the "request form" and all the rules were created back then to clarify the process, not to complicate it.
19:28 < gregdek> At least, it *should not* be.
19:28 * herlo agrees
19:28 < ke4qqq> gregdek: based on how things operate - I'd say RH owns NA Ambassadors - we are too dependent on them. Famsco to a lesser degree - but really we see precious little of them.
19:28 < gregdek> Nope.
19:28 < gregdek> We must break that dependency.
19:28 < gregdek> Personally, I think:
19:29 < gregdek> a. Ambassadors are more invested when they can operate autonomously, and RH should give funding, but *not* necessarily schwag;
19:29 < lxmaier_home> +1
19:29 < ke4qqq> +1
19:29 < gregdek> b. FAMSCO is a broken concept that does not take regional needs into account.
19:29 < herlo> +1 on b
19:29 < gregdek> As the founder of FAMSCO, I humbly apologize for it.
19:29 < gregdek> Well, perhaps it was useful for its time, but as ambassadors around the world get up and run, it's outliving its usefulness.
19:29 < ke4qqq> It was useful in the early days - but I think the growth has made it obsolete
19:29 < herlo> I need to ask a simple question about a. To whom does RH give the funding?
19:30 < gregdek> Good question.
19:30 < gregdek> In EMEA, we give it to various folks to help make things happen.
19:30 < herlo> is it direct to NA ambassadors? Or to FAMSCo or some such
19:30 < herlo> because to be honest, I personally don't want money, I want the swag
19:30 < gregdek> In LATAM, we give almost all of it to Rodrigo Padula da Oliveira in Brazil, and he makes things happen.
19:30 < herlo> so I can give it out to those who show interest
19:30 < gregdek> That makes us the gate for the schwag.
19:31 < herlo> us == FAMSco?
19:31 < gregdek> That means that you get one type of t-shirt, one type of hat, one type of sticker.
19:31 < gregdek> us == RH.
19:31 < herlo> k
19:31 < ke4qqq> There are some efficiencies because of that - RH has economies of scale.
19:31 < gregdek> And the EMEA ambassadors make LOGO BATHROBES.
19:31 < gregdek> That may be true.
19:31 < herlo> so do these folks in EMEA and LATAM manage that for the other Ambassadors?
19:31 < herlo> that == Money
19:32 < gregdek> We disburse funds in some cases.
19:32 < gregdek> Community folks raise some limited cash in some cases.
19:32 < herlo> right, and I've seen that be the case in some areas in NA too
19:33 < lxmaier_home> just think about shipping/handling and inventory overhead
19:33 < ke4qqq> Unfortunately our dependence has bred some ignorance - for instance does anyone (outside of RH) know how many Fedora CDs we burn per release? If the community were to start we'd flounder a bit - not that it's a bad thing, but it's a rough learning curve.
19:33 < lxmaier_home> i know it is easier to ask for "30 stickers and 20 t-shirts please"
19:33 < herlo> I'm willing to get reimbursed in some *certain* situations, but overall, I think its better to have it in one place
19:33 < gregdek> I'm not saying "NO SCHWAG EVER".
19:33 < gregdek> But I am saying that a reliance on RH leads to a lot of same old same old.
19:34 < lxmaier_home> having an inventory to manage -- and to ship from raleigh nc to say california is not the most efficient way to do things
19:34 < inode0> how many NA ambassadors asked for swag last year?
19:34 < herlo> I'd like to go back to the Ubuntu model for comparison. They use a company called shipit to send out CDs to their Loco Leaders, this might be feasible for that and other things??
19:34 < ke4qqq> and how many obtained it through back RH channels
19:34 < gregdek> Everyone emailed Max or Paul or me.
19:34 < gregdek> Is that back channel? Not really.
19:35 < ke4qqq> it's not the stated process.
19:35 < gregdek> Nope. But it's the degenerative case for that process.
19:35 < herlo> the stated process doesn't even work right now. It says you must fill out a form that isn't available atm
19:35 < gregdek> And most people, once they get to know that, sidestep the process.
19:35 < gregdek> Right.  :)
19:35 < gregdek> And why is this?
19:35 < lxmaier_home> i was looking on the wiki for the rules for resource request and could not find them
19:35 < gregdek> IMHO, because there's no group to steward the process in NA.
19:36 < herlo> I have no problems following the process actually. Just wonder who controls that and why its not online much of the time :(
19:36 < herlo> lxmaier_home: I will find it for you, hold on
19:36 < herlo> Ambassadors#Resources
19:36 < lxmaier_home> i found the broken stuff--not the stuff i remember posting 18 months ago
19:36 < herlo> oh, right, okay
19:37 < ke4qqq> so how do we (as a community) take ownership?
19:37 < inode0> I ask because I'm interested in engaging the existing ambassadors to be more involved and I don't think swag is the problem
19:37 < gregdek> So here's the thing.
19:37 < lxmaier_home> but i like the point gregdek is making: all other regions have a regional ambassadors organization. NA doesn't
19:37 < gregdek> The most functional ambassadors groups in the world -- EMEA and LATAM -- all *ignore* these pages.
19:37 < lxmaier_home> that would explain why it's not as vibrant as the others.
19:38 < gregdek> They have created their own structures, because our structure was not even represented in their language!
19:38 < gregdek> So as a result, they built their own house to their standards.
19:38 < gregdek> And those house are *awesome*.
19:38 < gregdek> The people who showed up tonight...
19:38 < gregdek> ...are the people who give a shit. Plain and simple.
19:38 < herlo> agreed
19:38 < gregdek> You are the leaders, by default.
19:39 < gregdek> And my job is to help you figure out what *you* want to do...
19:39 < gregdek> ...and give you resources where I can...
19:39 < gregdek> ...and get the hell out of your way.
19:39 < gregdek> If the wiki sucks, build your own process, starting now.
19:40 < gregdek> I can give you my entire inventory of NA schwag, and in the future, I can give you a budget.
19:40 < gregdek> And you use it *any way you see fit*.
19:40 < lxmaier_home> honestly, i think i could manage the schwag/money distribution
19:41 < lxmaier_home> if we all agree on the guidelines (e.g. as i stated above or whatever) i can volunteer to do the backend for the resources
19:41 < ke4qqq> Greg - I like decentralizing the swag stuff - it's symbolic of tranfer of authority, but I think there is more to it than that. I don't know a solution though.
19:41 < gregdek> lxmaier_home: Oh, I'm sure you could. You have before.
19:41 < gregdek> ke4qqq: I'll tell you what. We can get together every couple of weeks and talk it out until we *do* know.
19:42 < gregdek> But none of this "hmm, I forgot the meeting" stuff. That is an absolute soul killer.
19:42 < lxmaier_home> i do strongly lean towards the "you want to run an event, you get the money payPaled to you and off you go!"
19:42 * herlo agrees that putting regional people in charge might work, but we still need a central repository of information
19:42 < gregdek> One sec...
19:42 * gregdek rummages around...
19:42 < lxmaier_home> so we get crazy collectable schwag like EMEA does
19:43 < lxmaier_home> just found the old document
19:43 < gregdek>
19:43 < herlo> I have some of that already printed
19:43 < ke4qqq> per state or per region? Greg - the meetings used to be very alive - but we had a ton of authority. I remember arguing with you about 2-sided vs. 1-sided DVDs in the past as that was within our purview.
19:44 < ke4qqq> I don't know how that bled out- but I agree the group here cares - and meeting attendance is a must have.
19:44 < lxmaier_home> if we start doing things (and making shit happen) they'll come back
19:45 < gregdek> Yep.
19:45 < lxmaier_home> and then some
19:45 < ke4qqq> lxmaier_home: agreed
19:45 < lxmaier_home> in my admittedly simple mind the key to success is to be lean and mean
19:46 < lxmaier_home> did you guys know (if you don't work at RH) that RH does not provide its employees with office supplies?
19:46 < ke4qqq> Alright - unless you are taking it Greg (or someone else), I'll volunteer to handle the Southeast.
19:46 < herlo> I'm a linux instructor so I tend to have simple needs, CDs or DVDs do me just fine
19:46 < ke4qqq> lxmaier_home: no - wow thats shocking - do you work out of Raleigh? or home?
19:46 < lxmaier_home> you want a pencil, a marker, you go online and order it and then get reimbursed -- and that's how i see the ambassadors work
19:46 < lxmaier_home> raleigh, HQ
19:47 < ke4qqq> lxmaier_home: that doesn't scale well - if you need to order 10,000 CDs and then get reimbursed thats a painful reimbursement scheme.
19:47 * gregdek nods.
19:47 < lxmaier_home> agreed with the 100,000 DVDs
19:47 < gregdek> So this is where the focus becomes very important.
19:47 < ke4qqq> and I dont think with Rodrigo that happens
19:47 < lxmaier_home> but not with other stuff like t-shirts
19:47 < gregdek> We front cash to Rodrigo.
19:47 < herlo> lxmaier_home: for us, I could see a quarterly budget request too, which might be paypaled. Question I still have, and maybe this is for next week, but why don't we find some centralized resources and have them do the work for us, drop shipping works...
19:48 < gregdek> herlo: That's fine too.
19:48 < herlo> I think there's something there
19:48 < herlo> gregdek: thanks
19:48 < ke4qqq> herlo: someone has to set it up and manage it - we looked at this at one point and it dropped off the radar
19:48 < lxmaier_home> herlo: yes it kinda works, but kinda does not -- that's why we're here
19:48 < herlo> what does and doesn't work?
19:48 * stickster shows up really late and is so sorry
19:49 < lxmaier_home> if we had someone in raleigh to manage the mass production and drop-shipping then yes this would work
19:49 * gregdek resists the urge to boot stickster.  ;)
19:49 < stickster> kickban!
19:49 < gregdek> Here's another thing: we chose a crappy vendor, and we're stuck with them.
19:49 < lxmaier_home> but unfortunately, we dont have a headcount to do this full-time, and more important stuff comes up and the schwag drops off the table
19:49 < ke4qqq> it's more than efficiency - we need the 'authority' thing - we gotta break the 'dependency' We love the RH people - but it's not working.
19:49 < gregdek> I *hate* the RH schwag vendor.
19:49 < herlo> lxmaier_home: why does it have to be at raleigh?
19:50 < gregdek> It doesn't.
19:50 < gregdek> It can be anywhere there's someone to look after it.
19:50 < lxmaier_home> herlo: cause that's where the money is, RH -- that's why i advocate giving money to the regions
19:50 < ke4qqq> if you decentralize you can have a cluster of people available to fill requests - no need to have the ball dropped.
19:50 < herlo> lxmaier_home: sure, but its not my question you are answering
19:50 < lxmaier_home> herlo: in a way, i thought i was :)
19:50 < herlo> you are saying give money to the regions, I'm asking couldn't it be centralized elsewhere? And why does it have to be *managed* ?
19:51 < gregdek> If I trust the people, I don't want to manage them.
19:51 < ke4qqq> you mean RH is tied to BFS - not us. (unless someone has spoken for us)
19:51 < gregdek> I want to give them money and say "go make Teh Magic."
19:51 < lxmaier_home> +1
19:51 < lxmaier_home> give the money (AKA power) to the people
19:51 < gregdek> And if their version of Teh Magic is Centralized Schwag Repo, so be it.
19:51 * herlo thinks that we give an image every six months to some chosen vendor and have them create X number of stuff and ship it to the regional ambassadors. I mean it has to be shipped anyway
19:52 < lxmaier_home> we may lose 10-20% in inefficiency because of lack of scale, but we'll win by having people engaged and empowered
19:52 < herlo> essentially, it could be a local company as well, but one source seems less expensive
19:52 < gregdek> Fact is, the Centralized Schwag Repo that RH is stuck with sucks. And when I try to make schwag, it comes out late, too expensive, and not very original.
19:52 * gregdek thinks.
19:53 < gregdek> Why don't we just work with Karlie Robinson for all this stuff?
19:53 < lxmaier_home> giving money to the regions will make them own what they do, make them engaged, and most importanlty accountable.
19:53 < lxmaier_home> karlie is still around? sure! I like here
19:53 < lxmaier_home> s/here/her
19:53 < herlo> gregdek: okay. So I guess what I am driving at is maybe the same thing lxmaier_home is. I'm happy to be the Rocky Mountain regional ambassador, but I'll need some handholding
19:53 < lxmaier_home> she is very committed
19:53 < gregdek> Hey ian.
19:54 < herlo> karlie is well committed, yes. I think she's very good, especially at helping with the Media project IIRC
19:54 < ke4qqq> yeah and Karlie knowsher way around the media business.
19:54 * herlo has an idea.
19:54 < ianweller> gregdek: yo
19:54 < gregdek> herlo: shoot.
19:55 < herlo> One thing I think about is that we could consider putting in requests for what we need on a 6 month basis, have it done prior to the next release and have it all budgeted.
19:55 < herlo> I can see there might be possibilities where we'd need some *extra* requests, but it might just make it easier if we have a big bag of stuff to last us 6 months
19:55 < ke4qqq> herlo: things are too much in flux for that - only the big shows have a 6 month lead time.
19:56 < gregdek> Well, that's the kind of projection we already do.
19:56 < herlo> it is?
19:56 < lxmaier_home> i might be repeating myself but i'll say it anyway: i believe that if we have RH produce stuff and distribute it, we'llnever wean off the NA ambassaadors to self-sufficiency. if we give the money to the regions instead, the committed ones will step forward and self-select. then the region can manage for themselves, 6-months plans etc. like they see fit.
19:56 < gregdek> We're always guessing to some extent or the other.
19:56 < gregdek> Basically:
19:56 < gregdek> * Fedora comes out.
19:57 < ke4qqq> herlo: lets take that power and control at regional level. no need to set a NA policy I'd think
19:57 < gregdek> * Max orders a ton of DVDs/CDs from BrandFuel.
19:57 < gregdek> * We ship them piecemeal for six months.
19:57 < gregdek> * Lather, rinse, repeat.
19:57 < herlo> gregdek: I'm thinking we should do it *before* the next release comes out.
19:57 < herlo> but I get it
19:57 < herlo> ke4qqq: I agree
19:57 < herlo> that makes sense
19:57 < herlo> sorry to shake the bugs off
19:57 < herlo> but I'm still new to this whole Ambassador business
19:58 < gregdek> Heh.
19:58 < gregdek> It's tricksy.  :)
19:58 < gregdek> ke4qqq: Will you be at POSSCON, btw?
19:58 < lxmaier_home> i agree -- install media should be mass-produced and shipped out to regions etc. centrally if the money/resources allow. but if a region decided to use their money to produce more, why not?
19:58 < ke4qqq> gregdek: yes
19:58 < gregdek> ke4qqq: See you there, then.
19:58 < ke4qqq> lxmaier_home: it takes WEEKS after the release before media is available.
19:58 < herlo> lxmaier_home: is that based upon some sort of metric?
19:59 < lxmaier_home> nope, just crappy vendor
19:59 < ke4qqq> and we are on a 6-month release cycle.
19:59 < herlo> lxmaier_home: oh, rossy was asking about the centrally produced media
19:59 < lxmaier_home> so maybe decentralized production on as-needed basis is betteR?
19:59 < gregdek> ke4qqq: I've got to think that Karlie could help with this.
19:59 < herlo> s/rossy/actually/
19:59 < gregdek> She has financial incentive to do business with us, *and* she believes in the cause.
20:00 < ke4qqq> are we (usign whatever form of 'we' you'd like) locked into Brand Fuel? Yes Karlie could probably turning around much faster.
20:00 < gregdek> Whereas Brandfuel doesn't give a shit about Fedora.
20:00 < gregdek> We are NOT locked into Brandfuel.
20:00 < lxmaier_home> we don't have to use BFuel
20:00 < herlo> yay!
20:00 < gregdek> We stick with them because we're lazy and have other problems to solve.
20:00 < herlo> sounds to me like there's some business ot be got!
20:01 < ke4qqq> Alright - I'll take pinging Karlie on this as an action item - see what she can offer us. Anyone have an idea of the volume?
20:01 < ke4qqq> I noticed you said 'ton' ,but not sure if that is metric or imperial
20:01 * stickster hoping iWolf is watching this.
20:01 < gregdek> We produced about 2500 CDs/DVDs for NA for Fedora 9.
20:01 < gregdek> Is that a good number? A bad number? No idea. We pulled it right out of our ass with what budget we had left.
20:02 < lxmaier_home> that cost us what? 3000?
20:02 < gregdek> But it'll all get used.
20:02 < ke4qqq> sounds really low to me. I have seen 500 handed out at relatively small cons in NA.
20:02 < gregdek> Oh wait... actually, with the discs we went with another local vendor who screwed it all up.
20:02 < gregdek> I don't recall the cost off the top of my head.
20:03 < gregdek> But honestly, I'll tell you what scales:
20:03 < gregdek> We pick a number and give it to you.
20:03 < ke4qqq> We == RH?
20:03 < gregdek> Yes.
20:03 < gregdek> To start, anyway.
20:03 * gregdek wonders whatever happened to Fedora Unity's non-profit...
20:04 < lxmaier_home> stickster: did you get a chance to see the message i sent you earlier today?
20:04 < gregdek> "We have $10k to spend! You tell us what vendors to pay, and how much, and we will pay them!"
20:04 < gregdek> Something like that.
20:04 < stickster> lxmaier_home: Yes, and I believe I replied
20:04 < inode0> gregdek: you sent out a list of things (lug outreach, govt. outreach, campus recruiting, etc.) - will we get to any of that tonight?
20:04 * lxmaier_home looks for stickster's email
20:05 < gregdek> inode0: Good point.
20:05 < stickster> lxmaier_home: iWolf is Jeffrey Tadlock.
20:05 < gregdek> Much of this has still revolved around "events and schwag".
20:05 < herlo> gregdek: I'd like some more CDs DVDs, already out
20:05 < gregdek> Do people have time/inclination to go on a bit longer?
20:05 * herlo does
20:05 < ke4qqq> gregdek: can you give us an idea of how NA money has been spent in the past - let us look at that - not that we want to repeat, but just as a point of reference.
20:05 < ke4qqq> sure
20:05 < gregdek> herlo: Send me a mail.  ;)
20:05 < herlo> gregdek: done
20:05 < pcalarco> sure thing
20:05 < gregdek> In NA, we spend money on:
20:06 < gregdek> 1. schwag. Simple stuff that we can send everywhere. Simple shirts, simple cds/dvds, simple stickers, simple.
20:06 < gregdek> 2. sending people to conferences who can't afford to get there otherwise.
20:06 < gregdek> That's almost entirely it.
20:06 < ke4qqq> is 2. RH people or non-RH people?
20:07 < gregdek> non-RH people.
20:07 < herlo> did you say how much the budget was?
20:07 < herlo> I assume it depends, but
20:07 < gregdek> Sometimes RH people come to beg us for money to send some engineer, and we will if we think it's a good deal, but we try to reserve that money for non-RH folks.
20:07 < gregdek> It's anywhere from $5k to $25k a quarter for NA.
20:07 < herlo> that's quite a variance
20:07 < ke4qqq> why such a wide swing?
20:07 < gregdek> FUDCon.
20:08 < gregdek> In a quarter where we have a US FUDCon, the spend goes up.
20:08 < ke4qqq> I'd imagine that's out of Ambassadors baliwick
20:08 < ke4qqq> or are we taking that over too :)
20:08 < gregdek> Unclear, to be honest.
20:08 < gregdek> As yet, that's a pretty big job.  :)
20:08 < ke4qqq> indeed
20:09 < gregdek> But I'm certainly not averse to giving it over to Ambassadors if they want it.
20:09 * herlo wonders if 1) FUDCon could get its own budget and 2) Each Ambassador group could get a piece of that to send certain folks
20:09 * lxmaier_home would advocate giving fudcon to ambassadors, like in EMEA
20:09 < ke4qqq> we aren't ready for that yet. we can't even manage swag - give us 6 months or so.
20:09 < gregdek> +1.  :)
20:09 * herlo doesn't mean that we should run FUDCon, but I think its in the right location...
20:10 < herlo> I was more interested in separating it out
20:10 < herlo> so that funding is more clear
20:10 * gregdek nods.
20:10 < gregdek> You know what? Let's find Max's budget page.
20:10 < gregdek> One sec.
20:11 < herlo> and when it comes time for FUDCon, ambassadors, as well as any other SCo, could have access to funds to send people...
20:11 < stickster> CommunityArchitecture/Expenses
20:12 < gregdek> CommunityArchitecture/Expenses
20:12 < gregdek> Doh!
20:12 < gregdek> :)
20:12 < herlo> lol
20:12 < herlo> gregdek: I like sticksters better, its secure!
20:12 < gregdek> Ass.  :)
20:12 < ke4qqq> we have interns?
20:12 < herlo> :-D
20:12 < gregdek> They're engineering interns that do Fedora stuff.
20:13 < stickster> heh
20:13 < ke4qqq> It'd be nice if we could see how global swag was broken down by continent.
20:13 < gregdek> Yeah, that would be nice.
20:13 < gregdek> More work for Max, but what does he care?  :)
20:13 < gregdek> There are limitations to using a wiki for this stuff.
20:14 < gregdek> You basically get one view.
20:14 < ke4qqq> what I do see is that the EMEA folks are getting pretty big spend for conferences.
20:14 < gregdek> We could keep it in a spreadsheet with multiple column breakdowns and such, or even use GnuCash or something, but it's all tradeoffs.
20:14 < gregdek> ke4qqq: Because they ask for it, and handle logistics.
20:14 < inode0> different continents have different needs, we need to figure out what we need regardless of what funding other people get
20:15 < ke4qqq> I am not saying that theshouldn't, more admiring
20:15 < gregdek> inode0: Excellent point.
20:15 < gregdek> And since you keep trying to get us away from budget talk... :)
20:15 < ke4qqq> I don't disagre inode0 - just impressed with what they have done.
20:15 < gregdek> Shall we table this for now, and talk more about goals?
20:15 < ke4qqq> +1
20:15 < gregdek> Since I think that's the discussion that inode0 is keen to dig into.
20:15 < herlo> goals would be good
20:16 < herlo> something I'd like to *not* see as a goal. Separate Fedora User Groups.
20:16 < gregdek> inode0: Do you want the floor?  :)
20:17 < inode0> I'm keenly interested in academic outreach
20:17 < inode0> an untapped goldmine
20:17 < gregdek> Yes. I wish Jack were here.
20:18 < inode0> so do I since I know he has some ideas about how to approach that
20:18 < inode0> perhaps he can be poked for next meeting?
20:18 * gregdek mutters.
20:18 < gregdek> Most definitely.
20:19 < inode0> ok, then FUGs/LUGs - shall we mount an all out offensive against them for F10? :)
20:19 < herlo> ugh, no FUGs
20:19 < inode0> no FUGs?
20:19 < herlo> I find that (at least in Utah), we have disparate groups already
20:19 < gregdek> Is the LUG dead?
20:20 < gregdek> I think the LUG is dead.
20:20 < herlo> and we'll just make more little tiny islands
20:20 < herlo> gregdek: I believe its not
20:20 < herlo> the LUGs in UTAH are quite strong
20:20 < herlo> we have about 15
20:20 < herlo> and they all go pretty well
20:20 < inode0> we have active FUGs :)
20:20 < herlo> a couple struggle here and there. But maybe Utah is unique
20:20 < ke4qqq> LUGs as we know them are - but a few active here and there.
20:20 < gregdek> How can we leverage the LUGs to make inroads into Doing Good Things For The World?
20:21 < gregdek> Had this discussion with the folks at my local LUG.
20:21 < inode0> the organize barcamps in my area
20:21 < herlo> I think there's room there
20:21 < ke4qqq> your local lug isn't 'normal' it's way above what most people have.
20:21 < inode0> +y
20:21 < gregdek> It's become a social club where Linux interest is essentially accepted and secondary. Quite insular.
20:21 < herlo> gregdek: ahh, well we still have meetings and the like. But there is that *social* aspect that many people deem necessary
20:22 < inode0> gregdek: leveraging universities to do good things for the world might be more effective
20:22 < herlo> the real nerds now just hang out on irc and discuss how to make a better kernel and modules :)
20:22 < gregdek> Seems like most LUGs tend to whiff the "outreach" bits.  :)
20:22 < gregdek> inode0: Bingo. You are exactly right.
20:22 < herlo> agreed, that's why I created the Utah Open Source Foundation,
20:22 < ke4qqq> greg: exactly - apparently they need a 'purpose'
20:23 < f13> oh man, I totally missed the start of this meeting.
20:23 < gregdek> See? Hold it and they will come.  ;)
20:23 < stickster> Our LUG is doing SFD
20:23 < inode0> another place that is untapped mostly is church outreach groups, I gave an OLPC talk to one that is considering a 400 unit gift
20:23 < gregdek> f13: You're only 1hr20m late!
20:23 < herlo> maybe there's an opportunity here. Have *events* for the LUGs, speakers, bbqs, etc that we can discuss Fedora in a less *formal* way?
20:23 < stickster> f13: I only beat you by a half-hour, so I won't gloat
20:24 < stickster> Churches and area NPOs are good targets for evangelism.
20:24 < gregdek> I agree.
20:24 < f13> herlo: informal formats for the win.
20:24 < gregdek> Strongly.
20:24 < ke4qqq> indeed- I have given a number of talks to area Lions Clubs and Rotaries, and they were suprisingly receptive.
20:25 < herlo> ke4qqq: hmm, interesting idea.
20:25 < f13> I've always had more success in the informal social scene than any standing in front of people talking.
20:25 * herlo looks up the local BPOE
20:25 < gregdek> I love the idea of targeting organizations that are accustomed to civic activism.
20:26 < gregdek> Take people who are accustomed to doing cool stuff for their communities, and give them great tools to help.
20:26 < inode0> they are fundraising machines and don't blink at what are large numbers to most of us
20:26 < gregdek> Exactly right.
20:26 < ke4qqq> but what is the 'call to action' for those groups?
20:26 < gregdek> Ask them!
20:26 < gregdek> Get computers into the poorest libraries in your county.
20:26 < gregdek> For instance.
20:27 < pcalarco> or inner-city schools
20:27 < gregdek> Heh. Schools... tough sell.
20:27 < gregdek> I like to avoid angry, entrenched, unionized bureaucracies.  ;)
20:27 < gregdek> But that's just me.
20:28 < pcalarco> there are some libraries like that too :)
20:28 < ke4qqq> my lug is running a program that is putting refurbed computers running Fedora into 'economically challenged' hands particularly school aged.....
20:28 < gregdek> Anyway, I think that a lot of good brainstorming along these lines could be done.
20:28 < stickster> gregdek: ke4qqq: Get Linux into the hands of Goodwill or other thrift stores
20:28 < gregdek> What I *crave* is a list of *success stories* along these lines.
20:28 < stickster> All the relief orgs.
20:29 < herlo> we have a local school district putting Ubuntu LTSP into two classrooms this coming school year
20:29 < ke4qqq> good point Greg: what are we trying to accomplish at this part of the meeting.
20:29 < gregdek> Yeah, we are 1.5hrs in.
20:29 < gregdek> I'd say we're in the midst of a strategy discussion.
20:30 < gregdek> That should probably continue at a later date.
20:30 < gregdek> Our current strategy has been to send people to Linux/Open Source events.
20:30 < gregdek> Is that the right place to focus, or should we be focusing elsewhere?
20:30 < herlo> this is definitely import
20:30 < herlo> ant
20:30 < gregdek> I think it's a key strategic question to answer.
20:31 < gregdek> Because the answer means that we would take dramatically different steps to reach such a goal.
20:31 < herlo> maybe there's a balance needed there.
20:31 < herlo> I don't see why diversifying our goals is a bad thing
20:31 < herlo> other than we really can't accomplish them all in the first 6 months
20:32 < ke4qqq> we can't drop cons/events but we need to 'reach out' to the unwashed masses as well.
20:32 < pcalarco> I need to log folks, thank you for the interesting discussion; happy to help more as we go forward;g'nite!
20:32 < inode0> I'd like to at least think hard about shifting some focus to new areas
20:33 < gregdek> Diversifying our goals is okay if we're willing to reach out to all of them.
20:33 < gregdek> So...
20:33 < gregdek> ...maybe we've reached the end of our meeting.
20:33 < herlo> could we have a rotating target?
20:33 < f13> heh
20:34 < gregdek> Rotating target?
20:34 < herlo> something like focus on one area for a while, then add another, and another, etc
20:34 < gregdek> Maybe.
20:34 < gregdek> The choice is yours.  ;)
20:34 < ke4qqq> expanding range of targets.
20:34 < ke4qqq> so what action items before the next meeting and when is the next meeting?
20:35 < herlo> right, give us something *different* to do when things are working in one area or another
20:35 < inode0> or subgroups for people to focus on specific areas in
20:35 < herlo> right
20:35 < herlo> ke4qqq: are you saying we should be done :)
20:35 < gregdek> Is weekly too frequent at this point?
20:35 < ke4qqq> herlo: gregdek mentioned it a moment ago
20:35 < inode0> this is the point where it might not be too frequent
20:35 < herlo> I don't think so, I'm willing to meet
20:36 < ke4qqq> gregdek: no - withthis small of group too long and we'll languish on the vine
20:36 < herlo> ke4qqq: I know. :)
20:36 < gregdek> All right, then.
20:36 < herlo> todo's for next week?
20:36 < gregdek> Next week I'll be at OSCON, but I think we should meet anyway.
20:36 < ke4qqq> +1
20:37 < gregdek> So the first TODO is to figure out how we track progress.
20:37 < gregdek> I've always used the simple grid like we use in the marketing meetings:
20:37 < gregdek>
20:37 < ke4qqq> that will work for the time being.
20:38 < ke4qqq> we may need something else when we become more regionalized.
20:38 < inode0> If we can get Jack next week I think that conversation could consume a substantial hunk of time
20:38 < gregdek> I know that Jack wants a separate program that is laser-focused on campus-based activities.
20:38 < herlo> do we have a page like that?
20:38 < gregdek> I'm waiting for him to announce something.  :)
20:38 < inode0> yes, and how can we help in that
20:38 < ke4qqq> herlo: no but we can create one.
20:39 < gregdek> herlo: I'll take the action item to create the Tasks page for NA Ambassadors.
20:39 < herlo> ke4qqq: that's what I was gonna offer, just need the list
20:39 < herlo> gregdek: k
20:39 < gregdek> And then everyone else can fill it with potential tasks.  :)
20:39 < gregdek> And we can discuss all of them.
20:39 < inode0> gregdek: it is also possible our goals wrt to universities might not entirely intersect with his
20:39 < herlo> I was going to say, another task would be to find a better vendor in regional areas I guess
20:39 < herlo> but I'll put it on the wiki
20:39 < gregdek> Do we want a separate NA ambassadors mailing list?
20:40 < herlo> how busy is the current one?
20:40 * herlo hasn't looked at stats
20:40 < ke4qqq> gregdek: not yet lets see what attention we grab in the next few months before splitting off
20:40 < ke4qqq> hopefully ti will spark some fires
20:40 < gregdek> ke4qqq: ok.
20:40 < ke4qqq> and get more attention from people who aren't attendign
20:40 < ke4qqq> and draw them back into the fold
20:41 < inode0> talking on the general list will likely show evidence of things happening to the dormant ambassadors which would be a positive
20:41 < gregdek> Good point.
20:41 < gregdek> All right.
20:41 < gregdek> Oh, who can send this log out to the list?
20:42 < ke4qqq> gregdek: whats to become of famsco? and by whose hand?
20:42 < herlo> I can
20:42 < herlo> gregdek: that was for the list
20:42 < gregdek> ke4qqq: a fair question, and one I'm not ready to answer yet.
20:43 < herlo> f-am-l right?
20:43 < gregdek> But I think the writing's on the wall.
20:43 < gregdek> herlo: yes.
20:43 < herlo> I'll send it out shortly
20:43 < ke4qqq> yeah I feel reticent to depose elected people - but divestiture of power is already occurring. Perhaps fedboard or something. or it gets reshaped as something else.
20:44 < gregdek> Governance models reshape themselves all the time.
20:44 < gregdek> If FAMSCO is serving its constituents, it will prosper.
20:44 < gregdek> If not, it will die.
20:44 < gregdek> Anyway.
20:44 < gregdek> I guess we're at an end.
20:45 < f13> fin
20:46 < gregdek> Thanks y'all. I'll make this a weekly meeting for now.