Extras/SteeringCommittee/Meeting-20060615

Summary

Present from FESCo: warren, scop, thl (late)

• Short meeting only -- thl had other things to manage and joined late
• some discussions at 0:07 on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/HowToGetSponsored
• tibbs> | The idea was that people needing sponsorship are not understanding the process; Many think that sponsorship comes automatically.
• tibbs> | I'll try to find the info from the logs and cook up an Extras/SponsorResponsibilities page. The HowToGetSponsored page could then link there.
• tibbs> | So, I'll go ahead and cook up a page of sponsor responsibilities and we can discuss it next week.
• voting / voting system https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/
• thl> | abadger1999, shall we post this url and a point to the code in cvs so people can review it before we do the actual election?
• abadger1999 did that in between
• some guys tested it and some minor problems were found (and fixed)
• How long would the voting last? It was areed on one and a half week; open on June 22 close on July 2
• no revotes are allowed/possible -- If people complain we might implement it in the next election

Full Log

0:00            --- | BobJensen is now known as BobJensen-Away
0:02 <       tibbs> | Hmmm.  Anyone around for the meeting?
0:02 <      warren> | nope
0:03            --> | tibbs-cellphone (Jason Tibbitts)  has joined #fedora-extras
0:03              * | bpepple is fairly busy.
0:03 <    dgilmore> | lah lah lah
0:04 < abadger1999> | I'm here.
0:04            --> | _wart_ (MichaelThomas)  has joined #fedora-extras
0:04 <    dgilmore> | thl: here?
0:04            <-- | wart-cellphone has quit ()
0:04 <    dgilmore> | any fesco people here?
0:05 <      warren> | hi
0:06              * | scop here, more or less
0:07 <       tibbs> | What was on the schedule for this week?
0:07 <        scop> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule
0:07 <        scop> | hm, dunno if that's up to date
0:07 <    dgilmore> | election status?
0:07 <       tibbs> | I was going to ask folks to have a look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/HowToGetSponsored
0:08 < abadger1999> | I have an update on the voting system.
0:08 <    dgilmore> | abadger1999: how is it going?
0:08 <       tibbs> | Voting system is important; should we wait until more folks are around?
0:08 <    dgilmore> | possibly
0:09 < abadger1999> | How about you go first, tibbs.  Maybe more will show up?
0:09 <       tibbs> | OK.
0:09 <    dgilmore> | tibbs: that looks good
0:09 <       tibbs> | The idea was that people needing sponsorship are not understanding the process
0:09 <       tibbs> | Many think that sponsorship comes automatically.
0:10 <     bpepple> | tibbs: That's what I've noticed.
0:10 <    dgilmore> | tibbs: I have seen that.  It  deffinetly needs to be made clearer
0:10 <       tibbs> | There's one note in there that I think folks should look over: I don't want to encourage folks to just leave things for their sponsor to clean up.
0:11 <    dgilmore> | some people dont seem to review packaging guidelines at all when they first submit.  if i was a sponser i wouldnt sponser them.  the mindi and mondo-rescue  comes to mind
0:11 <        scop> | the listing of sponsor duties seems a bit out of place in that page
0:11 <     nirik99> | tibbs: not sure that should even be there... thats a sponsor duty, and the page is about how to get sponsored, not how to be a sponsor?
0:12 <       tibbs> | scop: Agreed.  But submitters do need to know what a sponsor is supposed to be doing.
0:12 <        scop> | sure, but maybe set up another page for that
0:12 <    dgilmore> | tibbs: maybe reword  is that  it reads in order to get sponsored  you need to display a clear understanding of the packaging guidelines,  etc
0:12 <       tibbs> | Perhaps just a general statement that a sponsor is there to assist you in getting your first packages through the system?
0:13 <       tibbs> | That's what I've always done.
0:13 <        scop> | +1
0:13 < abadger1999> | tibbs: I like that bullet point but not in the context it's given.
0:14 < abadger1999> | what should be emphasised is the sponsor does not want to have to clean up after you.
0:14 <       tibbs> | We probably a need another page for sponsor responsibilities, but honestly don't sponsors already know them?
0:14 <      _wart_> | tibbs:  It would be useful for new sponsors
0:14 <    dgilmore> | they should know them
0:14 < abadger1999> | tibbs: We were having lots of questions about sponsor's responsibilities about two months ago.
0:15 <       tibbs> | abadger1999: I'll have to read back through the logs.
0:15 <        jima> | it's probably worth writing up at some point.
0:15 <       tibbs> | I'll go ahead and excise that chunk from the page and reword things.
0:15 <        jima> | just so that there's official policy on it.
0:16 <       tibbs> | I'll try to find the info from the logs and cook up an Extras/SponsorResponsibilities page.  The HowToGetSponsored page could then link there.
0:16              * | jima nods.
0:17 <        scop> | I wouldn't worry about the "sponsor cleans up after you" part
0:17 <       tibbs> | OK.
0:17 <        scop> | speaking for myself, I wouldn't do that too many times
0:17 <        scop> | unsponsoring is possible too ;)
0:17 <       tibbs> | I have no idea how to do that.
0:18 <      warren> | maybe admins are the only one with access to downgrade and upgrade?
0:18 <       tibbs> | Does a cvsextra need to do it, or can the sponsor "unsponsor"?
0:18 <        jima> | yeah, i would expect myself to unbecome a fedora contributor if i left my sponsor holding the bag too many times.
0:18 <    dgilmore> | tibbs: i would say that an admin be notified to have account access revoked
0:19 <        scop> | I see unsponsoring as something that needs to be presented to FESCO with appropriate reasoning
0:19 <       tibbs> | That sounds reasonable.
0:19 <      warren> | It is NOT the job of sponsors to fix all problems and do all the educating.  The new contributor should read the documentation and get at least 80% of the way there on their own, and the sponsor can help to clean up.
0:20 <      warren> | In some cases I see sponsors doing 80% of the cleanup, and it isn't clear whether the new contributor truly understands the guidelines or not.
0:20 <    dgilmore> | warren: very true
0:20 <        jima> | warren: and that's scary.
0:21              * | thl on the keyboard now
0:21 <      warren> | Is the ccrma guy doing a better job of reading and following guidelines after his first package?
0:21 < abadger1999> | warren: true.  The cleanup rule should make the sponsor more wary of accepting a new packager rather than making the new packager rely on the sponsor.
0:22 <       tibbs> | So, I'll go ahead and cook up a page of sponsor responsibilities and we can discuss it next week.
0:23 <    dgilmore> | tibbs: go for it
0:23 <       tibbs> | thl, did you want to run through the schedule?
0:23              * | thl just read what was discussed up to now
0:23 <         thl> | well, who's around from FESCo?
0:24 <         thl> | I think we can skip the schedule for today
0:24 <         thl> | and just do a short meeting
0:24 <         thl> | I'm maily interested in two things:
0:24 <         thl> | - the status of the voting system
0:24 <         thl> | - the status of the "CTRL-C at the right point of time preverts commit mails"
0:25 <         thl> | abadger1999, what's that status of the voting system?
0:25 < abadger1999> | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/
0:25 < abadger1999> | This should work.
0:25 <    dgilmore> | pretty
0:25 < abadger1999> | I'm going to clear the data before we go live so feel free to try it now.
0:25 <         thl> | BTW guys, sorry for being late; I announced that on the private FESCo-list
0:26 <         thl> | abadger1999, many thx for your work
0:26 <        jima> | thl: such rudeness will not be tolerated ;)
0:26 <    dgilmore> | abadger1999: whats our username/passowrd?
0:26 <        jima> | thl: (welcome btw :)
0:26 < abadger1999> | No problem.  spot did the initial work.
0:26 <         thl> | abadger1999, shall we post this url and a point to the code in cvs so people can review it before we do the actual election?
0:26 < abadger1999> | dgilmore: Fedora accounts username and pass.
0:26 <         thl> | jima, well, I did the full meeting on my birthday some weeks ago
0:26 <    dgilmore> | abadger1999: ahhh  now to remeber password
0:27 < abadger1999> | thl: That would be fine.
0:27 <         thl> | but today I had to prepare some things for the birthday of my girlfriend...
0:27 <        jima> | abadger1999: where's the data on the candidates coming from?
0:27              * | jima seems to recall jpo having an irc nick ;)
0:27 < abadger1999> | http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/viewcvs/fedora-vote/?root=fedora
0:27 <         thl> | abadger1999, do you want to post that mail?
0:27 < abadger1999> | jima: the data is coming from the accounts database.
0:27 <        jima> | also warrn
0:27 <        jima> | warren, even
0:27 <        jima> | ahhh
0:27 <         thl> | abadger1999, or maybe: could you do that please?
0:28 < abadger1999> | So if you didn't enter the data in the acounts system, it doesn't show up.
0:28 <        jima> | jpo, warren: add your nicks to the accounts system :)
0:28 <         thl> | I'm quite busy up to sunday
0:28 <     bpepple> | abadger1999: Looks nice.
0:28 <      warren> | jima, eh?
0:28 <    dgilmore> | thl: wife/girlfreind's  are important to keep happy
0:28 <        jima> | warren: the accounts system doesn't have your irc nick. it's kinda obvious, but it shows up as "None" in the voting app :)
0:28 <        jima> | dgilmore: indeed they are
0:28 < abadger1999> | thl: I can.
0:29 <       tibbs> | Hmm, too many good choices.
0:29 < abadger1999> | thl: Do you want to set a date for comments to be in by so we can get the vote started?
0:29 <       tibbs> | Perhaps I won't vote for myself; that narrows it down a bit.
0:29 <      warren> | ok
0:30 <         thl> | abadger1999, yes, I'd like to set a date
0:30 <         thl> | what do you guys think?
0:30 <      warren> | "You are not a member of one of the groups eligible to vote in this election. If you think you should be, please contact someone ASAP."
0:30 <         thl> | Start the election next Thursday?
0:30 < abadger1999> | Hmmm... are you in cvsextras in the accounts system?
0:30              * | jima selects more than 13 candidates and gets caught
0:30 <    dgilmore> | thl: open voting next thursday  and run for 2 weeks?
0:30 <     bpepple> | thl: Sounds good.  How long would the voting last?
0:30 <        jima> | abadger1999: nice javascript catcher
0:30 <     Sopwith> | abadger1999: Out of curiosity, how are you checking for group membership?
0:31 < abadger1999> | jima: That was spot's work :-)
0:31 < abadger1999> | Using a function from website.py
0:31 <        jima> | spot: nice javascript catcher (even though he doesn't seem to be here)
0:31 <         thl> | I'd say one week should be enough
0:32 <         thl> | but on the other hand
0:32 <        scop> | I get the "you are not a member" welcome too
0:32 <    dgilmore> | thl: i was thinking for slow pokes
0:32 <         thl> | well, let's make it one and a half week
0:32 <     bpepple> | thl: +1
0:33 <         thl> | e.g. start on thursday 22
0:33 <    dgilmore> | sureopen on June 22 close on July 2
0:33 < abadger1999> | Okay -- scop and warren have issues.  Anyone else?
0:33 <         thl> | end on July the 2 (Sunday)
0:33 <       tibbs> | Getting two weekends in there is a good idea.
0:33 <     bpepple> | abadger1999: Nope.  Was able to test vote fine.
0:33 <        jima> | are scop/warren in as sponsors or admins?
0:33              * | dgilmore voted and made sure i couldnt a second time
0:33 <         thl> | abadger1999, seems to work for me
0:34 <    dgilmore> | thl  +1 also
0:34 <        scop> | I'm a sponsor in cvsextras
0:34 <      warren> | abadger1999, I'm admin in cvsextras
0:34 < abadger1999> | Sopwith:         groups = website.get_user_groups(self.dbh, userId)
0:35 <       tibbs> | I'm a sponsor, no problems here.
0:35 < abadger1999> | Sopwith: Then compare each group returned against the legal voting groups in the elections database
0:36              * | jima votes, and can't vote again. good.
0:36 < abadger1999> | Okay. I'll send out a mail with a request to look for bugs.
0:36 < abadger1999> | And email scop and warren to try it out again when I track down what's causing the error for them.
0:37 <         thl> | abadger1999, only one chance to vote is the expected behaviour?
0:37 < abadger1999> | Dates we're shooting for are: thursdar June 22 tuntil July 2
0:37 < abadger1999> | thl: I discussed it with spot and one chance to vote is the current expected.
0:37 <         thl> | abadger1999, k
0:37 <      _wart_> | If you can only vote once, and can't change your vote later, then it should be mentioned on the ballot page.
0:38 <         thl> | _wart_, +1
0:38 < abadger1999> | thl: spot's metaphor was once a vote is cast at a polling place it can't be changed.
0:38 < abadger1999> | _wart_: I'll put that note on the ballot page as well.
0:38 <         thl> | abadger1999, yeah, I'm okay with that
0:38 <    dgilmore> | i think thats ok
0:39 <         thl> | abadger1999, I just remembered that I saw some code in a cvs commit that allowed a revote
0:39 <         thl> | (or somewhere else)
0:39 <         thl> | well, unimportant now
0:39 < abadger1999> | I made a note in the code that we could enhance it to allow revotes.
0:39 < abadger1999> | The database has the required information to make that possible.  Just the code doesn't
0:40 <         thl> | abadger1999, let's see how it works
0:40 < abadger1999> | thl: k
0:40 <         thl> | If people want revotes we can implement them for the next election
0:40 <    dgilmore> | I think no revotes
0:40 <         thl> | k, anything else that needs to be discussed for the election/voting system?
0:40 <        jima> | most real-world elections don't allow revotes.
0:41 <    dgilmore> | thl: i think its done.
0:41 <    dgilmore> | poke jeremy for ctrl-c
0:41 <         thl> | warren, I think you wanted to look into the CTRL-C problem
0:41 <        jima> | abadger1999: does this leave an audit trail? we may want to port it to the US election system ;)
0:41 <         thl> | warren, did you find time for it?
0:41 <     Sopwith> | abadger1999: That's the wrong function
0:42 <      warren> | thl, sorry no, I intended on talking about that during the admin meeting last week, but I burned out.
0:42 <      warren> | thl, I can do that todya.
0:42 <         thl> | warren, k, tia
0:42 <     Sopwith> | abadger1999: Use a loop over have_group instead - there's a reason not to fully trust get_user_groups, and I can't remember what it is! :(
0:43 < abadger1999> | Sopwith: k.  Oh.  Is it suppoed to work but doesn't?
0:43 <         thl> | so, anything else regarding Extras people like to discuss now
0:43 < abadger1999> | I thought I spotted a bug in it
0:43 <         thl> | otherwise I'll close this mini-meeting
0:43 < abadger1999> | Sopwith: But when it worked, I thought I assumed I didn't know as much abut python as I thought.
0:44 <      edhill> | thl:  new sponsor nominations?
0:44 <         thl> | edhill, good idea
0:44 <         thl> | so, any sponsor nominations?
0:44 <     Sopwith> | abadger1999: Well, it wasn't working for warren, so I assume something's wrong.
0:45 <      edhill> | cool, I'd like to nominate Orion whos done the most reviews of any current non-sponsor
0:45 <      edhill> | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/PackageStatus
0:45 <         thl> | edhill, thx; I'll forward that to the FESCo list; we'll discuss this next week in details
0:46 <         thl> | any other nominations?
0:46 <         thl> | seems not
0:46              * | thl will close the meeting in 60
0:47              * | thl will close the meeting in 20
0:47              * | thl will close the meeting in 10
0:48 <         thl> | -- MARK meeting end --