Meeting:Board meeting 2009-08-27

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This meeting was held in IRC Freenode #fedora-design at 1630 UTC to discuss the state of the website redesign process and the mockups created by the Design team. The meeting was open to all community members as posted on FAB here and here.

#fedora-design log

stickster caillon: dgilmore: jwb: mmcgrath: spot: mdomsch: glezos: notting: ping, meeting time 27 Aug 12:30
jwb LET'S DO IT 27 Aug 12:30
notting 27 Aug 12:30
* notting is here 27 Aug 12:30
stickster mizmo: ping to you too 27 Aug 12:30
stickster  :-)' 27 Aug 12:30
* stickster notes that poelcat is on vacation this week and completely off the intartubez 27 Aug 12:31
dgilmore 27 Aug 12:31
* dgilmore is here 27 Aug 12:31
mmcgrath 27 Aug 12:31
* mmcgrath here 27 Aug 12:31
stickster glezos may not make it, he's in transit 27 Aug 12:31
jwb stickster, i'm envious 27 Aug 12:31
stickster Anyone seen mdomsch? 27 Aug 12:31
stickster HAHA 27 Aug 12:31
stickster speak of the devil and he appeareth! 27 Aug 12:31
stickster That was just perfect timing, mdomsch 27 Aug 12:31
mdomsch pointed ears heard the cry 27 Aug 12:32
stickster  :-) 27 Aug 12:32
nirik 27 Aug 12:32
* nirik is hanging around in the back to heckle. 27 Aug 12:32
stickster nirik: In the finest of traditions! 27 Aug 12:32
stickster OK, seems like everyone's here. 27 Aug 12:32
stickster The Board is holding a meeting here today in place of our normal conf-call 27 Aug 12:32
stickster So that we can talk about the current mockups that mizmo has put together for spins.fp.o, and get.fp.o 27 Aug 12:33
stickster We delayed a half-hour out of deference to our host mizmo so she'd have a chance to get food and thus not pass out partway thru the meeting :-) 27 Aug 12:34
stickster Let me dig up URLs for the latest mockups 27 Aug 12:34
stickster http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png 27 Aug 12:34
stickster That's the latest spins.fp.o mockup -- what I call a "hub" sometimes for shorthand 27 Aug 12:34
stickster The latest get.fp.o mockup is here: 27 Aug 12:35
stickster http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png 27 Aug 12:35
mmcgrath the getfp.o page makes me want to play super mario brother. 27 Aug 12:35
stickster Before we get to looking at the mockups themselves, let's spend a few minutes talking about requirements 27 Aug 12:35
stickster mmcgrath: That was one of them :-D 27 Aug 12:35
stickster About a month ago we started by setting out some information on the FAB list such as our purpose 27 Aug 12:36
stickster and laying out the things we wanted to see out of a redesign 27 Aug 12:37
stickster Something we realized early on was that we needed to do a better job of organizing choice site-wide 27 Aug 12:37
stickster So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences 27 Aug 12:38
stickster We decided that the first thing we needed was a spins.fp.o that was something beyond a torrent listing 27 Aug 12:38
stickster and would promote the variety of choices available throughout Fedora 27 Aug 12:39
mmcgrath uh-oh 27 Aug 12:40
mmcgrath oh, she's back 27 Aug 12:40
mmcgrath  :) 27 Aug 12:40
stickster and concomitantly a get.fp.o that would be more appropriate for people without the ability or desire to make informed choice 27 Aug 12:40
stickster I wrote a big summary of this a couple days ago to FAB, so hopefully this is kind of a recap 27 Aug 12:40
mizmo So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences 27 Aug 12:40
mizmo sorry, i dont know what is going on w the network 27 Aug 12:41
jwb 27 Aug 12:41
* jwb wonders if stickster has a thesaurus open 27 Aug 12:41
stickster So that our pages would do a better job of serving disparate audiences 27 Aug 12:41
stickster We decided that the first thing we needed was a spins.fp.o that was something beyond a torrent listing 27 Aug 12:41
stickster and would promote the variety of choices available throughout Fedora 27 Aug 12:41
stickster and concomitantly a get.fp.o that would be more appropriate for people without the ability or desire to make informed choice 27 Aug 12:41
stickster mizmo: Does that catch you up? 27 Aug 12:41
mizmo yes but ive never heard of the word concomitantly before lol 27 Aug 12:42
jwb me either :) 27 Aug 12:42
stickster That's what comes of having my first job be in a law office :-D 27 Aug 12:42
stickster "alongside" 27 Aug 12:42
caillon it's not as dirty as it sounds 27 Aug 12:42
stickster caillon: I suppose it depends on where you work :- 27 Aug 12:42
stickster  :-) 27 Aug 12:42
spot 27 Aug 12:42
* spot stops googling it 27 Aug 12:42
mizmo so should i post the mocks i did this morning? most are pencil sketches but i started work on a shiny updated details page for the kde spin too 27 Aug 12:43
stickster <dangerfield>No respect!</dangerfield> 27 Aug 12:43
stickster mizmo: That would be great 27 Aug 12:43
stickster mizmo: I posted some URLs earlier but a refresh is much appreciated 27 Aug 12:43
mizmo kk so here's a in-progress spin details mock featuring kde http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png 27 Aug 12:43
mizmo then ive got a set of sketches 27 Aug 12:43
* stickster notes that mchua_mtg was kind enough to put together https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 for us 27 Aug 12:43
mizmo to represent #4 'more options' on this page http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/wwwfpo_diagram.png 27 Aug 12:44
stickster Whoa, I dig the sub-branding 27 Aug 12:44
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png 27 Aug 12:44
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_arch-tab.png 27 Aug 12:44
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_desktop-tab.png 27 Aug 12:44
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_activity-tab.png 27 Aug 12:44
mizmo so the idea is that they're tabs of the same page.... if you click on "view full list of options" - http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png 27 Aug 12:45
mizmo right now you'd go to the format tab 27 Aug 12:45
drago01 doesn't the "Intel compat" results into "but does it run on amd" or "does it run on my via nano" kind of confusion? 27 Aug 12:45
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= if you click on each of the formats / arch /desktop / format then it'd bring you to the corresponding tab on that page 27 Aug 12:45
drago01 *result 27 Aug 12:45
mizmo drago01: yeh im not sure the best wording for that 27 Aug 12:46
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_arch-tab.png 27 Aug 12:46
mizmo there is some space below the arch and above the individual downloads to have some exlanation 27 Aug 12:46
notting so more options != spins page? 27 Aug 12:46
stickster mizmo: Ah, so the "Other options" box on get.fp.o is aligned with these new tabbed pages 27 Aug 12:46
mizmo so maybe the heading could be '32-bit' and underneath we list out examples of that 27 Aug 12:46
Kevin_Kofler So you actually need 2 clicks to get to the spins page using the "more options" link? 27 Aug 12:46
mdomsch I agree these are great top-level choosers 27 Aug 12:46
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: don't worry, it's one click to get to kde 27 Aug 12:46
mizmo notting: im not sure yet, this is how it shook out so far, it's two clicks 27 Aug 12:47
mdomsch thoughts on helping users choose download methods? 27 Aug 12:47
mdomsch torrent, mirror, metalink, ? 27 Aug 12:47
mizmo notting: so if you want a desktop spin u go to the desktops tab, if you want an activity-based spin (FEL, education) u go to the activity tab 27 Aug 12:47
mizmo mdomsch: yeh i haven't addressed that yet 27 Aug 12:47
mizmo mdomsch: i was thinking once i get these into inkscape playing around with either having a dropdown download button for that 27 Aug 12:47
notting mizmo: as opposed to just having a more raw spins.fp.o listing? 27 Aug 12:47
stickster mizmo: Maybe it would help to start by walking us through the flow here 27 Aug 12:47
mmcgrath How feasible is it going to be to get this all done prior to the F12 launch? 27 Aug 12:47
stickster Can we do that before we start diving into everything else? 27 Aug 12:48
mdomsch mizmo, sounds good 27 Aug 12:48
mizmo mdomsch: and/or maybe having a sidebar in the right hand side to point to the mirrors portal and the torrents portal etc 27 Aug 12:48
mizmo and what i mean by dropdown download button... one sec 27 Aug 12:48
mdomsch mirrors portal really isn't ideal, it could use some love too, but that's for another day 27 Aug 12:48
mizmo oh poo i can't find the example im looking for 27 Aug 12:48
* stickster is trying to understand what happens when someone types "get.fp.o" into their browser. 27 Aug 12:48
mizmo mdomsch: yes absolutely 27 Aug 12:48
mizmo stickster: sure i can start a walkthrough 27 Aug 12:48
mizmo okay 27 Aug 12:48
mizmo so im an experienced fedora user 27 Aug 12:49
brunowolff I would find it hard to write a promo for the games spin that made it sound as important as the filler text provided for KDE. 27 Aug 12:49
mdomsch do we think people will understand the "tabs are different ways to slice the same data" principle? 27 Aug 12:49
stickster brunowolff: Hold off for just a moment, let's have mizmo walk us through stuff. 27 Aug 12:49
mizmo and i want the x86_64 version of the KDE spin 27 Aug 12:49
mizmo i know what i want 27 Aug 12:49
mizmo so i go to www.fedoraproject.org, just cuz about 50% of respondents to my survey said thats what they do (and they're all experienced peeps) 27 Aug 12:49
mizmo here's what i see 27 Aug 12:49
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png 27 Aug 12:50
mizmo hmm nice big download button! but it's marked as 32-bit. not what i want. I click on 'more options' 27 Aug 12:50
mizmo alternatively, i click on 'download' in the top nav bar 27 Aug 12:50
mizmo if i click 'more options' 27 Aug 12:50
mizmo i land here 27 Aug 12:50
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png 27 Aug 12:50
caillon my only concern is if a "new" user clicks onto one of the tabs and gets sent to this page with a lot of (in their eyes, confusing) information, how do they get back? 27 Aug 12:50
mizmo if i click 'download' 27 Aug 12:50
mizmo i land here http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png 27 Aug 12:51
mizmo again i see the desktop edition is a live media spin, doesn't mention KDE, and is 32-bit. not what i want. i scan the page. 27 Aug 12:51
mizmo oh look, more options. 27 Aug 12:51
mmcgrath so more options == get.fedoraproject.org ? 27 Aug 12:51
mizmo oh look, it mentions KDE> 27 Aug 12:51
mizmo no, http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= get.fpo 27 Aug 12:51
mizmo although we could move the url to point to the other 27 Aug 12:51
mizmo depends if we want noobs to go to get.fpo 27 Aug 12:51
mizmo i wouldn't expect a noob would know the url already 27 Aug 12:52
mizmo so maybe thats a good idea mmcgrath to point it to more options 27 Aug 12:52
mmcgrath ah, ok. so both get.fp.o and (www.)fp.o have a download button and a more options button? 27 Aug 12:52
stickster mmcgrath: I think that's right, yes 27 Aug 12:52
mizmo yep 27 Aug 12:52
mizmo so you can get to more options in one click from the front page 27 Aug 12:52
mizmo which means, Kevin_Kofler , you can get to KDE in two clicks 27 Aug 12:52
mizmo anyhow ill continue my little tale of adventure and excitement 27 Aug 12:52
stickster  :-) 27 Aug 12:52
mizmo so http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png <= i see KDE mentioned in the more options box and i see x86_64 hmm 27 Aug 12:53
mizmo i decide i click on KDE. 27 Aug 12:53
mizmo i get brought here: 27 Aug 12:53
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_desktop-tab.png 27 Aug 12:53
mizmo oh look look at that, a 64-bit KDE download right there. score. 27 Aug 12:53
mizmo so that's my experienced user walkthrough. 27 Aug 12:53
mizmo the noob walkthru, i dont know if i should do? 27 Aug 12:53
stickster mizmo: Sure 27 Aug 12:53
mizmo okay 27 Aug 12:53
mizmo so i'm susie noobie 27 Aug 12:53
stickster Although that's pretty easy I know 27 Aug 12:53
jwb wait 27 Aug 12:54
mizmo jwb: sup 27 Aug 12:54
mizmo can we have discussion after walkthrus? 27 Aug 12:54
thomasj 27 Aug 12:54
* thomasj has a question as well 27 Aug 12:54
jwb i ahve a question on this one though... 27 Aug 12:54
mizmo can it wait? it'll take me 2 min 27 Aug 12:54
mizmo to do susie noob 27 Aug 12:54
thomasj sure 27 Aug 12:54
mizmo kk 27 Aug 12:54
mccann hey mizmo looking at your arch diag. another page we want is the initial homepage for each spin 27 Aug 12:54
mizmo so im susienoobie, my friend tells me about fedora, oh wow, it's so awesome. she sends me a link, fedoraproject.org 27 Aug 12:54
mizmo i take a look 27 Aug 12:54
mizmo there's a big ol' 'download button' - but that's moving too fast for me. i'm not ready to commit 27 Aug 12:55
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png 27 Aug 12:55
mizmo i see a 'more information' link so i click that 27 Aug 12:55
mizmo and i get brought here 27 Aug 12:55
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png 27 Aug 12:55
mizmo oh look at this, i dont even have to format my hard drive. nice. okay ill give it a try. click 27 Aug 12:55
mdomsch page1 is fp.o? 27 Aug 12:55
stickster (reassuring text that it won't kill my system) <-- cool 27 Aug 12:55
mizmo i get brought here 27 Aug 12:55
stickster mdomsch: correct 27 Aug 12:55
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page3.png 27 Aug 12:55
mizmo nice ill keep this page open as i try this thing out 27 Aug 12:56
mizmo okay 27 Aug 12:56
mizmo im done with walkthrus 27 Aug 12:56
mizmo so mccann to your question, yeh the spin homepages are gonna be off spins.fpo 27 Aug 12:56
mizmo here's the spins.fpo front page mock so far 27 Aug 12:56
jwb when you say "experienced user" do you mean someone experienced with computing, linux, fedora, or all of the above? 27 Aug 12:56
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png 27 Aug 12:56
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png 27 Aug 12:56
mizmo well 27 Aug 12:56
mmcgrath jwb: I think she means someone that knows what they want, or at least thinks they do. 27 Aug 12:56
mizmo jwb, exactly what we've been discussing on the mailing list 27 Aug 12:56
mccann mizmo: i mean the initial home page for the browser after install 27 Aug 12:57
mizmo newbie == has experience with computers, is technical, doesn't necessarily use linux all the time or may not have used it before. or they may use a different distro but never tried fedora. 27 Aug 12:57
mccann which for the desktop we'd like to have apps and themes and stuff there 27 Aug 12:57
mizmo experienced user == already a fedora user, knows what they are doing 27 Aug 12:57
mdomsch spin directory: clicking in a box takes you to the spin's page? Clicking "download now" does? 27 Aug 12:57
jwb mizmo, hm. your walkthru is slightly flawed with that definition 27 Aug 12:57
mizmo mccann: i have not mocked that up. it's not in the requirements right now and ive already got a LOT of mockups on my plate here :( 27 Aug 12:57
mizmo jwb: how so 27 Aug 12:58
jwb but i guess that isn't really important at all, now that i think about it. the walkthru fits other definitions just fine 27 Aug 12:58
Kevin_Kofler Shouldn't at least the spins page say somewhere the Desktop spin uses GNOME? 27 Aug 12:58
mizmo jwb: i want to know how it doesnt fit 27 Aug 12:58
stickster mizmo: I think experienced users here is not necessarily a group comprised of *just* Fedora users, right? 27 Aug 12:58
caillon also, i think we want to auto-detect the user's arch if possible and offer that by default to the user. 27 Aug 12:58
mccann so a few comments on the default get page... 27 Aug 12:58
mizmo stickster: i believe the definition i was furnished involved not fedora user 27 Aug 12:58
mccann we should support usb installs too 27 Aug 12:58
jwb mizmo, because someone experienced with fedora will probably just go directly to download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/linux/<path to ISO they want> 27 Aug 12:58
jwb (or their mirror of choice) 27 Aug 12:59
drago01 caillon: does not really work you migth be running 32bit firefox on a 64bit os 27 Aug 12:59
mizmo jwb: actually my survey showed that is not actually the case 27 Aug 12:59
thomasj mizmo, ok, as a experienced Fedora user, i want to download a netinstall.iso (the only installations i do). How can i find that with the new pages? 27 Aug 12:59
drago01 (windows) 27 Aug 12:59
mmcgrath jwb: I don't do that 27 Aug 12:59
mizmo has anyone here seen the getting fedora survey i did? 27 Aug 12:59
thomasj Do i have to walk trough some mirrors? 27 Aug 12:59
mccann we may want to look into having an xpi plugin that can assist with the download and cd creation 27 Aug 12:59
jwb as i said, it doesn't really matter. the walkthru stands on it's own 27 Aug 12:59
mizmo here pretty graphs http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/ 27 Aug 12:59
mdomsch mccann, that's a "format" choice on the format page 27 Aug 12:59
mizmo http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-result-discussion/ 27 Aug 12:59
caillon drago01, I think that would be an okay case to miss. 27 Aug 12:59
stickster mizmo: I've seen it, it was a smart thing to do 27 Aug 12:59
mdomsch assuming we have something to offer to burn to a usb key 27 Aug 13:00
mmcgrath perhaps we (as people in the meeting) should just stick with stuff that is really important to them. Stuff that's blocker status or near-blocker status. 27 Aug 13:00
mmcgrath lots of cooks, small kitchen, not a lot of time. 27 Aug 13:00
mizmo by far, the most popular method for folks who are readers of either planet fedora or planet gnome is to start at www.fpo and go from there to download fedora. 27 Aug 13:00
drago01 caillon: you would miss every case where the user doesn't know already that he wants 64bit because he uses it 27 Aug 13:00
caillon drago01, we're going to offer x86-32 as the default otherwise, so it's not like we'd be losing anything 27 Aug 13:00
mizmo mmcgrath: more like one driver in a clown car o_O 27 Aug 13:00
caillon but the default would be 32bit anyway 27 Aug 13:00
caillon if we don't auto-detect 27 Aug 13:00
drago01 caillon: ok that makes sense 27 Aug 13:00
dgilmore caillon: atu detecting what to offer based on browser is kinda dumb 27 Aug 13:01
mizmo i think that features like autodetection should probably wait until we've got the basics down first. 27 Aug 13:01
nirik caillon: the failure case there is if you are just using a 64bit machine to download and were planning on installing on a 32 bit machine. You get something that you can't use. ;( 27 Aug 13:01
mizmo we don't have to get every great idea in here at once. 27 Aug 13:01
mizmo we can take an iterative approach. 27 Aug 13:01
jwb yes 27 Aug 13:01
mizmo mmcgrath: and to your earlier question, yes, i am very scared about the amount of time we have left here. 27 Aug 13:01
caillon nirik, if you know enough to do that, i think you know the difference between the bits and can change your choice. 27 Aug 13:01
dgilmore nirik: or your on a ppc box but need intel for the new machine you just got 27 Aug 13:02
mizmo dgilmore: no idea is a dumb idea. :) however feasible or whatever an idea is it can spark a new awesome idea 27 Aug 13:02
jwb dgilmore, we are not targeting non-x86 arches anyway 27 Aug 13:02
mizmo thomasj: you mentioned u had a question before? did it end up getting answered? 27 Aug 13:03
thomasj no 27 Aug 13:03
mizmo thomasj: sup? 27 Aug 13:03
dgilmore jwb: right, but there are alot of ways for it to fail 27 Aug 13:03
thomasj mizmo, ok, as a experienced Fedora user, i want to download a netinstall.iso (the only installations i do). How can i find that with the new pages? 27 Aug 13:03
drago01 minior nitpick "256MB" is definitly not enough for the desktop spin 27 Aug 13:03
dgilmore but regardless 27 Aug 13:03
caillon dgilmore, besides, the browser can get what your system arch is, not just the arch of the browser, afaik 27 Aug 13:03
mizmo thomasj: right now it's not in the mockup but i would think maybe this would be an appropriate page for it: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png 27 Aug 13:03
mizmo thomasj: what do you think? 27 Aug 13:03
dgilmore caillon: no it doesnt 27 Aug 13:03
mizmo drago01: all those requirements i grabbed fomr the desktop guide for f11. 27 Aug 13:04
caillon dgilmore, i'm not talking about useragent 27 Aug 13:04
mdomsch mizmo, agreed on format tab 27 Aug 13:04
thomasj mizmo, yep, would be a good place, thanks 27 Aug 13:04
drago01 mizmo: ok, but that does not mean that those aren't wrong 27 Aug 13:04
mizmo thomasj: from the survey it turns out quite a few people use that to grab fedora so i think it's good to offer it up 27 Aug 13:04
mizmo drago01: yeh but what im saying is, i dont do the docs, we should fix the docs first 27 Aug 13:04
mizmo drago01: maybe 3 or 4 other people have pointed out the 256 mb to me :( 27 Aug 13:05
drago01 mizmo: yeah 27 Aug 13:05
mizmo but if that's what the docs say... right? 27 Aug 13:05
jwb this is a mock up anyway. move on? 27 Aug 13:05
stickster mizmo: drago01: Good points -- drago01, can you chase that down with Docs and file a bug? 27 Aug 13:05
thomasj mizmo, yes, i know a lot of experienced linux user use it. So thanks for putting it on it. 27 Aug 13:05
drago01 stickster: sure, why not 27 Aug 13:05
stickster drago01: Thanks, excellent 27 Aug 13:05
stickster drago01: I'm guessing the Installation and Installation Quick Start Guides are the relevant pieces 27 Aug 13:06
mizmo so there's a lot of people who know what they're doing when they download fedora who go straight to a particular portal (mirrors.fpo. torrents.fpo, etc) to get it 27 Aug 13:06
mizmo so i think having a consistent naming scheme and maybe even somewhere, a directory of all those portals would be good 27 Aug 13:07
mizmo and branding those sites, altho it may be out of scope for f12 27 Aug 13:07
* stickster agrees this is a good f13target 27 Aug 13:07
mizmo generally for our website it might be good to have a site that shows all the fedora subdomains 27 Aug 13:07
mizmo kind of like google and yahoo do 27 Aug 13:07
stickster "site map"? 27 Aug 13:07
mizmo yeh 27 Aug 13:07
mizmo exactly 27 Aug 13:07
stickster mizmo: This might make a good subject to round up at FUDCon 27 Aug 13:07
mizmo so those experienced users if for somereason forget the url but know it exists, they have a play to look it up 27 Aug 13:07
stickster i.e. in November gather the stuff, check our heads at FUDCon and maybe write up a schedule for providing the necessary pages 27 Aug 13:08
mizmo so one thing i uncovered in the survey that 6% of 78 users had ever gone to spins.fpo at all 27 Aug 13:08
mizmo to get fedora 27 Aug 13:08
mizmo which is why i did the mocks with the tabs the way i did this morning 27 Aug 13:08
mizmo i dont know if that's kosher or not tho 27 Aug 13:08
mizmo what do you think? 27 Aug 13:08
mizmo i think we need to do a lot more socialization / marketing of spins before people go straight there 27 Aug 13:09
stickster mizmo: I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that there's not much there to attract anyone... it's basically just a torrent listing. 27 Aug 13:09
thomasj 27 Aug 13:09
* thomasj likes the tabs 27 Aug 13:09
mizmo stickster: yeh but more people went to mirrors.fpo and torrents.fpo than spins.fpo,and they're basically of the same, uh, design :) 27 Aug 13:09
jwb anything would be an improvement over the current spins.fp.org 27 Aug 13:09
stickster mizmo: It might be that any "hub" idea that's just a list -- whether it's pretty or not -- may not do much for people 27 Aug 13:09
jwb mizmo, that goes back to what i said about people going directly to the site they know of 27 Aug 13:09
jwb download.f.r.c or mirrors (or torrent) 27 Aug 13:10
mmcgrath mizmo: are the tabs going to be a time killer? 27 Aug 13:10
mizmo mmcgrath: i hope not :( 27 Aug 13:10
stickster mizmo: So are you saying the tabbed page might make just as good a spins.fp.o page as the 8- or 10-block list version? 27 Aug 13:10
mizmo stickster: well i liked ben bockel's idea that there's desktop spins vs 'activity' spins 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo stickster: the tabs let me split that out 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo the spins directory... i dunno... why would someone want to go there 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo i just struggle with why a spin 27 Aug 13:11
stickster So you can use taxonomies that make sense to people 27 Aug 13:11
mmcgrath mizmo: yeah, I like that to. 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo yeh 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo i mean 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo i could do that on spins.fpo 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo but, then it seems weird to split spins vs arch & format across two different sites 27 Aug 13:11
drago01 stickster: bug filed 27 Aug 13:11
stickster "I want to do <XXX>" or "I want architecture <XXX>" are completely different approaches 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo so i dont know if we should drop this spins.fpo redesign or not 27 Aug 13:11
mizmo stickster: but what do you want to do if you're interested in kde or xfce? they have no activity goal 27 Aug 13:12
stickster mizmo: Well, not dro the redesign 27 Aug 13:12
stickster *drop 27 Aug 13:12
mizmo stickster: the only reason you would ever want them is to be different 27 Aug 13:12
stickster mizmo: But rather, instead of doing just "a prettier list" we're doing something that supports the user's intentions and decision points 27 Aug 13:12
mdomsch 27 Aug 13:12
* mdomsch likes http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png as a frontpage for spins.fp.o 27 Aug 13:12
mmcgrath drago01: # ? 27 Aug 13:12
jwb XFCE = "I want something small and fast" 27 Aug 13:12
stickster i.e. "I want to base my decision making on the following factors:" 27 Aug 13:12
jwb KDE = "I want KDE" 27 Aug 13:12
drago01 mmcgrath: 519753 27 Aug 13:12
notting mizmo: i just want to not send people to a torrent listing, ever :) 27 Aug 13:13
spot SPARC = "I am possessed by the devil" 27 Aug 13:13
mizmo so uhh 27 Aug 13:13
jwb (sorry, i don't know what activity/usage KDE normally gets associated with) 27 Aug 13:13
stickster notting: +1 27 Aug 13:13
mizmo did anybody see the spins details mock i did 27 Aug 13:13
stickster mizmo: I did 27 Aug 13:13
mdomsch recall, part of why spins.fp.o is just a torrent listing, is because we linked 'spins' and 'download methods' inappropriately 27 Aug 13:13
mizmo k lemme post it again for referencehttp://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png 27 Aug 13:13
mdomsch now that we can serve spins via other download methods 27 Aug 13:13
mizmo i think it's important for spins to have a homebase with a subdomain they can point people to 27 Aug 13:13
stickster mizmo: Wait 27 Aug 13:13
stickster mizmo: Before we leave the "hub" topic 27 Aug 13:14
thomasj mizmo, +1 27 Aug 13:14
stickster Do we have any general agreement that the tabbed (multi-dimensional) approach is going to be more effective than the approach shown at http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png ? 27 Aug 13:14
Kevin_Kofler KDE = I want a fully configurable desktop 27 Aug 13:15
jwb Kevin_Kofler, ok 27 Aug 13:15
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: you don't *do* 'fully configurable desktop' 27 Aug 13:15
* stickster believes the answer to that question is yes, the tabbed approach is going to support people who are making decisions based on a lot of differnt factors 27 Aug 13:15
drago01 mizmo: "want to customize the desktop do dead" 27 Aug 13:15
drago01 *to 27 Aug 13:16
notting the tabbed approach may be better, yes 27 Aug 13:16
stickster Board members: what say you? 27 Aug 13:16
thomasj drago01, matter of opinion 27 Aug 13:16
stickster notting: Thanks 27 Aug 13:16
spot i like the tabs. 27 Aug 13:16
jwb stickster, i agree the tabbed approach is cleaner 27 Aug 13:16
drago01 thomasj: sure 27 Aug 13:16
notting stickster: not sure how it scales down to non-desktop browsers. also not sure we care :) 27 Aug 13:16
stickster notting: You mean, how does this page look in elinks? 27 Aug 13:17
mdomsch tabs++ 27 Aug 13:17
drago01 notting: you don't download fedora on your phone .. do you? 27 Aug 13:17
mizmo if someone wants to download an iso for fedora on their iphone...... they're weird 27 Aug 13:17
notting drago01: i hope not 27 Aug 13:17
stickster "Help, I'm stuck at runlevel 3, I need Fedora!" 27 Aug 13:17
stickster  :-) 27 Aug 13:17
stickster OK, it sounds like the tabs win by a landslide. 27 Aug 13:17
mclasen 27 Aug 13:17
* mclasen thinks that anything that forces a 10-way choice onto people who just want to 'get fedora' is not a winning approach 27 Aug 13:17
dgilmore 27 Aug 13:17
* dgilmore like the tabbed approach 27 Aug 13:17
mizmo i care about text-based brwosers and i do not think theres anything about this design that wouldn't work 27 Aug 13:17
mizmo mclasen: no one is forcing a choice 27 Aug 13:17
stickster mclasen: Note that this page is not where uninformed users will land. 27 Aug 13:18
jwb mclasen, which is why this is the spins page, not the main page... 27 Aug 13:18
mizmo mclasen: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png 27 Aug 13:18
mclasen ok, I did not know that 27 Aug 13:18
mclasen thanks 27 Aug 13:18
jwb too many URLs flying around 27 Aug 13:18
stickster mclasen: We covered that earlier but I'll be happy to send you the log 27 Aug 13:18
mizmo mclasen: is that mockup okay with you? that's the proposed new www.fpo download page 27 Aug 13:18
mclasen no need 27 Aug 13:18
stickster mizmo: Sorry I made us back up there temporarily 27 Aug 13:18
jwb maybe we could have big diagonal labels across them so they are easily identified as get.fp.o and spins.fp.o, etc 27 Aug 13:18
stickster mizmo: You were about to go on to talk about subdomains 27 Aug 13:19
jwb but a bit late now 27 Aug 13:19
mizmo jwb: thats an interesting idea 27 Aug 13:19
mizmo jwb: i do think the subdomains *maybe* could be branded like that 27 Aug 13:19
mdomsch with the tabs, do we _have_ a spins.fp.o ? 27 Aug 13:19
jwb mizmo, i just meant for the purposes of this discussion 27 Aug 13:19
mizmo and i like the diagonal label idea it might work better with the main fedora branding than making sub brands for each subdomain 27 Aug 13:19
mizmo ohhh 27 Aug 13:19
jwb mizmo, so i could correlate which .png went with which page 27 Aug 13:19
mizmo i think in general it might be cool on the pages themselves lol 27 Aug 13:20
jwb ok, that's fine too 27 Aug 13:20
mizmo jwb: i think i put circled numbers on the sketches at least 27 Aug 13:20
jwb i'm glad to have contributed a creative idea, even if it was accidental :) 27 Aug 13:20
stickster mdomsch: I think the idea is that (1) spins.fp.o points to that tabbed page, and (2) the workflow we engineer doesn't rely on a spins.fp.o site, period -- (1) would be to cover the dead link 27 Aug 13:20
thomasj 27 Aug 13:20
* thomasj has to leave, sadly, but he wants to thank mizmo for her hard work and the amazing design. I will read the log later. 27 Aug 13:20
mizmo mdomsch: you could drop spins.fpo and stick with the desktop tab and the activities tab, but i like spins.fpo too because it gives you more room to have details pages for each individual spin 27 Aug 13:20
mizmo however 27 Aug 13:20
mizmo overall do we expect the number of spins to grow overtime more than it has been? 27 Aug 13:20
mizmo thomasj: thanks :) :) 27 Aug 13:20
* stickster shuts up since mizmo has a different idea that's probably better 27 Aug 13:21
jwb mizmo, the growth rate has declined somewhat 27 Aug 13:21
jwb i wouldn't say it won't grow though 27 Aug 13:21
* stickster rips the duct tape off 27 Aug 13:21
Kevin_Kofler At least the Moblin packager plans to have a spin for F13. 27 Aug 13:21
stickster true 27 Aug 13:21
mdomsch mizmo's draft of spins.fp.o (with all the boxes) covers the content that's now split across 2 tabs (activity and desktop) 27 Aug 13:22
spot 27 Aug 13:22
* spot notes that mizmo is temporarily afk 27 Aug 13:22
stickster mdomsch: That's one reason the tabs might work better 27 Aug 13:22
mizmo sorry i had to get a cake 27 Aug 13:23
mdomsch so pointing the url spins.fp.o/ at a page needs to be one or the other 27 Aug 13:23
mdomsch or add a [spins] tab that addresses all of them 27 Aug 13:23
mdomsch but that's kind of horky 27 Aug 13:23
notting mizmo: bring enough to share? 27 Aug 13:23
mizmo sorry :( 27 Aug 13:23
jwb the cake is a lie 27 Aug 13:23
mizmo [ * ] | <= here u go virtual cake 27 Aug 13:23
mizmo well if we expect spins to grow 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo i mean 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo there were originally some really grand plans for spins.fpo 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo where it would integrate wevisor 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo and it would have lots and lots and lots of spins such that it would be categorized and search based 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo but 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo we've never had enough spins to justify an idea like that and also 27 Aug 13:24
mdomsch 'suse studio'... 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo i think we dont have the people working on the wevisor stuff 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo mdomsch: yes exactly 27 Aug 13:24
mizmo mdomsch: what we could do for f12 is leave spins as is, go with these tabs 27 Aug 13:25
mizmo and do spins cleanup to look like this new mock for f13 27 Aug 13:25
mdomsch mizmo, good plan 27 Aug 13:25
mizmo thing is tho 27 Aug 13:25
stickster That assumes that we have someone building new functionality (a spinner app) at the same time, right? 27 Aug 13:25
stickster in the f13 cycle, I mena. 27 Aug 13:25
stickster *mean 27 Aug 13:25
mdomsch stickster, not really 27 Aug 13:26
mizmo we got 6% of survey people going to it at all, again they're experienced fedora or foss folks. i dont think people feel they need to go there 27 Aug 13:26
mdomsch mizmo, I'm fine with not having a spins.fp.o URL we advertise anymore 27 Aug 13:26
mizmo maybe it's not needed 27 Aug 13:26
mdomsch but I kind of like the "showcase" effect that your mockup provided 27 Aug 13:26
mizmo yeh 27 Aug 13:26
nirik 27 Aug 13:26
* nirik has been off working... but I just want a page I can point people to who want the Xfce spin, etc... 27 Aug 13:26
mizmo i think for sure 27 Aug 13:26
mizmo individual spins need details pages 27 Aug 13:27
mizmo exactly what nirik points out 27 Aug 13:27
stickster mizmo: We could still have the showcase widget (interviews, whatever) underenath the "by-dimension" listing, right? 27 Aug 13:27
mizmo and i think maybe spinsfpo is the best place 27 Aug 13:27
mizmo stickster: yeh we could 27 Aug 13:27
mdomsch mizmo, so how do we get to that showcase spinsfpo from the chooser tabs? 27 Aug 13:27
mizmo mdomsch: well the thing about the tabs is they are about GETTING fedora 27 Aug 13:27
mizmo getting the spins 27 Aug 13:27
mizmo they are ISO focused 27 Aug 13:28
mizmo the thing about spins.fpo as mocked up is they're about the spins themselves. not just an iso. a community, stuff you can do, etc 27 Aug 13:28
mdomsch good point 27 Aug 13:28
mizmo so i think 27 Aug 13:28
nirik 27 Aug 13:28
* nirik would also like the spins detail pages to tell how to install that desktop/whatever on a existing install. 27 Aug 13:28
spot perhaps a "learn more about Fedora spins" link? 27 Aug 13:28
mizmo it's weird to mush !get-an-iso stuff into the get-an-iso page 27 Aug 13:28
stickster It would be confusing to just stuff more links in there, yeah 27 Aug 13:28
mizmo spot: yeh i think maybe 27 Aug 13:28
mclasen 27 Aug 13:28
* mclasen agrees about not mushing 27 Aug 13:28
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfedora_format-tab.png 27 Aug 13:29
mizmo see in the right column 27 Aug 13:29
mizmo i listed 'live media' as a 'format' but then really just push you over to spins.fpo 27 Aug 13:29
mdomsch longevity on these getfedora* pages: we'll need a separate batch of them for each release 27 Aug 13:29
mizmo mdomsch: oh gosh yes how do people get older versions of fedora 27 Aug 13:29
mizmo thats not addressed in these at all 27 Aug 13:29
mizmo do we need an 'archive' tab or maybe a 'archive' link just in the footer? 27 Aug 13:29
jwb ugh 27 Aug 13:29
mizmo and say we had these mocks implemented now 27 Aug 13:29
* stickster raises a controversial point, that we don't want to over-promote old Fedora. 27 Aug 13:29
mizmo they're f11 pointing 27 Aug 13:30
mizmo when f12 comes out 27 Aug 13:30
mizmo we move them from www.fpo/get to www.fpo/f11/get 27 Aug 13:30
jwb stickster, agreed 27 Aug 13:30
mizmo stickster: yeh thats why im saying put it in the footer or something 27 Aug 13:30
caillon yeah, i think that's basically what mozilla does 27 Aug 13:30
mizmo not too prominent, but accessible 27 Aug 13:30
* stickster thinks a single (de-emphasized) pointer back to archive.fp.o would suffice 27 Aug 13:30
stickster mizmo: Right on 27 Aug 13:30
mizmo kk 27 Aug 13:30
mizmo so i definitely need to update mocks to reflect that 27 Aug 13:30
mdomsch at least, get-prerelease/ is separate from the get-current/ 27 Aug 13:31
Kevin_Kofler We shouldn't link old Fedora at all. 27 Aug 13:31
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: what do you mean by old 27 Aug 13:31
mizmo not latest, but still supported? 27 Aug 13:31
mizmo un supported? 27 Aug 13:31
mizmo both? 27 Aug 13:31
Kevin_Kofler At most we could have a get-previous (like get-prerelease), but why would we link an already EOL release? 27 Aug 13:31
jwb i don't think that's what we were talking about 27 Aug 13:31
mizmo ok so youre assumed old == unsupported, so what about f10 27 Aug 13:31
jwb i think we were talking about e.g. F10 27 Aug 13:32
mizmo we're at f11 now but f10 is still supported 27 Aug 13:32
Kevin_Kofler But do we want people to download it now? 27 Aug 13:32
mizmo do our hardware reqs go up over time with releases? 27 Aug 13:32
mdomsch mizmo, somewhat yes 27 Aug 13:32
caillon Kevin_Kofler, yes, people may want to do that if they have an i386 only machine 27 Aug 13:32
mclasen but once Fx+1 is released, we don't really want to push people to install Fx 27 Aug 13:32
mizmo mdomsch: so we may want to keep at least live media from F7 on available 27 Aug 13:32
caillon Kevin_Kofler, or if they want to test something 27 Aug 13:32
stickster I think we want as many people going to the latest as possible. We shouldn't completely hide our archive, but it should get as little eyeballing as possible 27 Aug 13:32
caillon or if they need a rescue cd 27 Aug 13:32
mdomsch stickster++ 27 Aug 13:33
stickster caillon: Kevin_Kofler: Or if they need to reproduce results 27 Aug 13:33
caillon or have an F9 box and want to do incremental upgrades 27 Aug 13:33
mizmo mclasen: we could treat it with sort of a historical archive kind of thing 27 Aug 13:33
caillon right 27 Aug 13:33
mizmo i dunno 27 Aug 13:33
* stickster notes he had to grab a F9 just the other day to try and help with a bug 27 Aug 13:33
mizmo http://browsers.evolt.org/ <= this site has saved my behind a number of times 27 Aug 13:33
caillon there are many reasons to want to download older versions, so they should be around 27 Aug 13:33
mizmo but i guess browsers and versioning makes more sense than os and versioning 27 Aug 13:33
caillon but it's not like we have to prominently feature them 27 Aug 13:33
mizmo yeh 27 Aug 13:33
stickster Right, maybe just a note in the footer/gutter for "Archive" 27 Aug 13:33
stickster or "Archived releases" 27 Aug 13:33
mizmo im saying, just a little thingy in the footer, is all 27 Aug 13:33
stickster mizmo: +2 27 Aug 13:33
mizmo no tab for it 27 Aug 13:34
mdomsch agreed - no tab 27 Aug 13:34
caillon definitely not 27 Aug 13:34
mizmo i know i mentioned that as an idea before but as soon as i hit enter on that i thought, crap bad idea 27 Aug 13:34
mizmo kk 27 Aug 13:34
caillon i probably wouldn't mind if all it linked to was just an ftp directory 27 Aug 13:34
jwb we've spent a lot of time talking about the spins stuff. do we have any comments on the main download page(s)? 27 Aug 13:34
mizmo caillon: thats a great idea :) 27 Aug 13:34
mizmo caillon: less work for me too lol 27 Aug 13:35
stickster caillon: http://archive.fedoraproject.org/pub/archive/ <--mizmo 27 Aug 13:35
nirik 27 Aug 13:35
* nirik suggests if they go to EOL releases, they include a disclaimer. 27 Aug 13:35
mdomsch archive includes a disclaimer already 27 Aug 13:35
stickster nirik: There's one on that page I just linked, as luck would have it :-) 27 Aug 13:35
nirik yep. 27 Aug 13:35
jwb stickster, that URL doesn't have F10 (or even F9) 27 Aug 13:35
stickster jwb: Oh, you're right 27 Aug 13:35
mizmo i didnt know archive.fpo existed! hot damn 27 Aug 13:36
mizmo stickster: that url is perfect 27 Aug 13:36
stickster 9 just hasn't been moved there yet, probably because mmcgrath hasn't run low enough on space yet 27 Aug 13:36
jwb damn is an appropriate word in some context, yes 27 Aug 13:36
mdomsch jwb, it's time to move f9 over to there 27 Aug 13:36
jwb yes. anyway. back to the topic at hand 27 Aug 13:36
jwb  ? 27 Aug 13:36
stickster 1 27 Aug 13:36
mmcgrath 27 Aug 13:37
* mmcgrath just hasn't done it yet. 27 Aug 13:37
stickster mmcgrath: np, just noting that things roll in there generally as needed 27 Aug 13:37
stickster we've spent a lot of time talking about the spins stuff. do we have any comments on the main download page(s)? 27 Aug 13:37
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png 27 Aug 13:38
mizmo /\ that's it 27 Aug 13:38
stickster Is there anything on the spins.fp.o where we don't have a consensus yet, where you need one, mizmo? 27 Aug 13:38
notting none above what i mentioned on the list 27 Aug 13:38
mizmo there seems to be.... less drama about it than i thoght there would be lol 27 Aug 13:38
mizmo notting: i hear you on the grey thing, when we implement it the text will be darker... we'll probably use chunks form the current fpo stylesheet 27 Aug 13:38
jwb are we promoting preupgrade as the defacto upgrade method now? 27 Aug 13:38
mizmo not sure 27 Aug 13:39
dgilmore jwb: i think we should 27 Aug 13:39
jwb ok. well i think FESCo needs to decide there, no? 27 Aug 13:39
mizmo supported fedoras right now == f10 and f11 27 Aug 13:39
* stickster thinks we're going to derail this into a preupgrade debate 27 Aug 13:39
mizmo both are preupgradable 27 Aug 13:39
mizmo in the past we had f9 in the fray which i believe was not preupgradable? 27 Aug 13:39
jwb stickster, right. something that just caught my eye 27 Aug 13:39
stickster F9 was the first to allow it 27 Aug 13:39
mizmo kk 27 Aug 13:39
mdomsch preupgrade has lots of failure cases yet 27 Aug 13:39
jwb mizmo, i think someone that wants to drive that should run it past FESCo 27 Aug 13:39
mizmo jwb: should i pull it from the mock? 27 Aug 13:40
mizmo and tlel them to get the DVD instead? 27 Aug 13:40
Kevin_Kofler I'm just one FESCo member, but IMHO yes, preupgrade should be the recommended method. 27 Aug 13:40
stickster This might be a good question for mclasen 27 Aug 13:40
stickster I think preupgrade is the most sensible method we have 27 Aug 13:40
jwb mizmo, not necessarily. just be prepared to change the text :) 27 Aug 13:40
Kevin_Kofler Upgrading from the DVD doesn't include updates, so it's a recipe for upgrade path breakage. 27 Aug 13:40
mclasen 27 Aug 13:40
* mclasen missed the question 27 Aug 13:40
mizmo in case it helps, ~20% of the survey respondents said they use preupgrade 27 Aug 13:40
Kevin_Kofler E.g. do it for F10->F11 and wham, no more yum! 27 Aug 13:40
stickster are we promoting preupgrade as the defacto upgrade method now? 27 Aug 13:40
Kevin_Kofler (Well, yum is there, but you have to hack Python search paths to make it work.) 27 Aug 13:40
mizmo 63% said they download the DVD (but that might not necessarily be fore upgrade) 27 Aug 13:41
mdomsch mizmo, regarding the banner artwork on getfpo, I presume that'll be different? 27 Aug 13:41
jwb stickster, i thought you said you didn't want to get into that here... 27 Aug 13:41
mizmo f11 and it's working for me right now 27 Aug 13:41
stickster jwb: Yeah, more food for thought 27 Aug 13:41
mdomsch feels like 2001 XP again 27 Aug 13:41
mizmo mdomsch: for these mockups, ricky and decided we'll try to implement them within the current www.fpo template 27 Aug 13:41
stickster jwb: mclasen is on Desktop team obviously, and I had met with a few people, including jrb and skvidal, about the future of preupgrade 27 Aug 13:41
mizmo mdomsch: and do a template refresh for f13 27 Aug 13:41
mizmo mdomsch: since this is a large load, we thought that might help us crank it out quicker 27 Aug 13:42
mdomsch ok 27 Aug 13:42
mclasen stickster: I'd be more happy to do that if we were confident that it works and has people who look after it 27 Aug 13:42
mizmo mdomsch: the artwork is totally placeholder, if people ike it we can keep it if not we can get something different 27 Aug 13:42
stickster mclasen: We can discuss later, JRB had said there might be interest on his team to help 27 Aug 13:42
Kevin_Kofler mizmo: You did it right when F11 got released, before the yum update to F10 which made it newer than on the F11 DVD, maybe? 27 Aug 13:42
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: no i did it maybe a month after f11 came out 27 Aug 13:42
jwb that's sort of offtopic 27 Aug 13:42
jwb 27 Aug 13:42
* jwb herds cats 27 Aug 13:42
mizmo mreeeow 27 Aug 13:42
jwb i curse myself for bringing this up 27 Aug 13:43
jwb  :) 27 Aug 13:43
mizmo jwb: well i think it's over now? 27 Aug 13:43
jwb k 27 Aug 13:43
mizmo jwb: ill wait on.... fesco.....? or stickster? to figure out if im pushing dvd or preupgrade? 27 Aug 13:43
mdomsch "Other Options" bullets will match/link to tabs 27 Aug 13:43
mizmo jwb: either way we gotta get that decision made before translation freeze 27 Aug 13:43
mizmo mdomsch: yep absolutely 27 Aug 13:43
jwb right 27 Aug 13:43
mizmo mdomsch: and the all link at the bottom goes to the first tab 27 Aug 13:43
mmcgrath 27 Aug 13:43
* mmcgrath notes he has another meeting in about 15 minutes. 27 Aug 13:43
mdomsch What is the "view full list of options" link to? 27 Aug 13:44
mdomsch I'm not sure we'll have such 27 Aug 13:44
jwb so answering my own previous question, i'm quite happy with -17.png 27 Aug 13:44
mizmo 27 Aug 13:44
* mizmo notes the sugar high from cake will probably only last another 15 minutes 27 Aug 13:44
mizmo mdomsch: it'd go to the first tab 27 Aug 13:44
mdomsch so formats and "full list" are the same then 27 Aug 13:44
mdomsch ok 27 Aug 13:44
mizmo mdomsch: and the rationale behind that - i made the first tab have the dvd as the most prominent thing, since i thin it was 68% of survey respondents said they get the DVD 27 Aug 13:44
stickster caillon: How do you feel about the -17.png mock? 27 Aug 13:44
mizmo mdomsch: yeh exactly, do you tihnk that works? 27 Aug 13:44
mdomsch sure 27 Aug 13:45
mizmo kk 27 Aug 13:45
stickster mizmo: Good thinking 27 Aug 13:45
mizmo stickster: (im glad i did the survey hehe) 27 Aug 13:45
stickster  :-) 27 Aug 13:45
stickster I have to say, I'm pretty happy with -17.png 27 Aug 13:45
stickster Especially with the reorganization of the other options, and the tabbed landing page behind them 27 Aug 13:45
stickster It's the most sensible construct we've had for decision-making 27 Aug 13:46
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: what do u think about the tabs thingy? 27 Aug 13:46
caillon stickster, i don't think i have any major objections to it. mccann, mclasen? 27 Aug 13:46
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: also what do you think about this (not finished yet, old FEL refreence i forgot to change lol but maybe you get the idea) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png 27 Aug 13:47
stickster "CLICK THIS BUTTON! Oh, are you one of those detail-oriented 'I like to read' people? Great, check this out..." 27 Aug 13:47
mclasen caillon: works for me, without the pandas 27 Aug 13:47
stickster mclasen: panda-hater ;-) 27 Aug 13:48
mizmo mclasen: ... theres no pandas on it 27 Aug 13:48
stickster That would have been funnier as "panda hata" 27 Aug 13:48
mizmo don't hate the panda, hate the game 27 Aug 13:48
stickster lul 27 Aug 13:48
mccann caillon: what was the question? meeting is too fast for me 27 Aug 13:48
mclasen mizmo: right, thats why I'm happy with it :-) 27 Aug 13:48
caillon now i'm picturing a katamari opening scene 27 Aug 13:48
mizmo mclasen: ah hehe 27 Aug 13:48
caillon mccann, http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-17.png any objections? 27 Aug 13:48
jwb rdieter, Kevin_Kofler: same question 27 Aug 13:49
Kevin_Kofler Well, the tabs are a fairly good presentation, especially the link directly to the "by desktop" tab from the "more options" box. 27 Aug 13:49
mizmo speaking of katamari's opening scene, yes, we could do worse than pandas o_O that king guy is SCARY 27 Aug 13:49
notting mizmo: actually, a question now 27 Aug 13:49
stickster mizmo: -1 offtopic :-D 27 Aug 13:49
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: does it allay any of the concerns you brought up earlier? 27 Aug 13:49
mizmo notting: kk shoot 27 Aug 13:49
Kevin_Kofler But I still don't like and will never like the way this is much less prominent than the big GNOME-only "Download Now!" button. 27 Aug 13:49
notting mizmo: do 'More download options' and 'View full list of options' go to the same place? 27 Aug 13:49
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: but you're feeling better about it than you did earlier? 27 Aug 13:50
mizmo notting: yeppers 27 Aug 13:50
Kevin_Kofler I'd like the listing by desktop to be the main download page. 27 Aug 13:50
notting mizmo: do we ned both, then? 27 Aug 13:50
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: the problem is that by far the most popular download is the DVD 27 Aug 13:50
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: live media i think was 42%? dvd 68% 27 Aug 13:51
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: so i thought it'd be important to make the DVD the first tab 27 Aug 13:51
Kevin_Kofler Then why is the big download link to the live media? 27 Aug 13:51
mclasen oh, I think we had a problem with making the dvd very prominent 27 Aug 13:51
mclasen mccann ? 27 Aug 13:51
mizmo notting: i don't think more than one path is necessarily is a bad thing 27 Aug 13:51
notting 27 Aug 13:51
* notting thinks Kevin_Kofler and mclasen are discussion different screens 27 Aug 13:51
Kevin_Kofler The DVD could use a better way to select a pure KDE desktop, but that's out of the scope of this meeting. 27 Aug 13:52
mccann sorry xchat is not displaying my channel correctly... brb 27 Aug 13:52
mizmo notting: the 'more options' under the 'download now' button on the main download page mirrors the 'more options' under the 'download now' button on the front page of www.fpo 27 Aug 13:52
stickster Actually, the Live image is far more popular than the DVD when you include all the downloads we track. 27 Aug 13:52
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: that's okay, you don't have to answer my question. 27 Aug 13:52
notting mizmo: maybe, i just think if you already have an 'other options' box, you don't need the one line of text. but if you're pulling widgetry 27 Aug 13:52
notting (i.e., trying to keep a common look and feel) 27 Aug 13:52
mizmo stickster: if you aggregate the live media it hink your numbers are going to be off. there is one DVD. there are multiple livemedia. a person could download kde + gnome and that counts as 2 downloads, but they download dvd only counts as 1 27 Aug 13:52
mizmo stickster: unless by live media you mean only the desktop spin 27 Aug 13:53
mclasen mccann: saw my earlier question ? 27 Aug 13:53
Kevin_Kofler mizmo: To answer your question, I'm still feeling just as bad about the front page and main download page as those still feature GNOME directly through a big direct download button and KDE only through a small link. 27 Aug 13:53
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: okay so these tabs do nothing for you. good to know. 27 Aug 13:53
drago01 (I don't really like hidding 64bit but this is a good compromise) 27 Aug 13:53
Kevin_Kofler I'm feeling better about the "more options" page, as KDE is no longer lost in the big list of spins. 27 Aug 13:53
stickster mizmo: Good point, I'll have to delve into that 27 Aug 13:53
Kevin_Kofler So the tabs are an improvement, but they don't and can't solve the main issue. 27 Aug 13:54
mizmo stickster: the survey asked people across all live media, do you download live media, and the response was something like 42% 27 Aug 13:54
mizmo stickster: and several folks mentioned they download more than one live media 27 Aug 13:54
Kevin_Kofler drago01: That's a problem with the "big button" as well. 27 Aug 13:54
mizmo drago01: the problem is there's too many dimensions, you cant have them all on one screen without being too cluttered 27 Aug 13:55
mccann mclasen: no 27 Aug 13:55
Kevin_Kofler mizmo: Well, as you know, that's a premise I already don't agree with. ;-) 27 Aug 13:55
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: to each his own 27 Aug 13:56
drago01 Kevin_Kofler, mizmo : yeah a long list of options is not an option either 27 Aug 13:56
mclasen mccann: I said that I think we had a problem with making the dvd prominently available for download, and was asking for you to expand on that 27 Aug 13:56
rdieter fwiw, i'm satisfied, modulo bikeshedding about prominence and button sizes 27 Aug 13:56
mizmo the pages the dvd is feature on are meant to be for users who know what they want, not new users 27 Aug 13:56
mizmo fwiw 27 Aug 13:56
stickster I think overall, mizmo, you've produced something that does fit the requirements that we developed 27 Aug 13:56
mccann mclasen: the dvd is currently a wasteland by all accounts 27 Aug 13:57
mizmo thanks rdieter 27 Aug 13:57
mizmo mccann: i did a survey of users and found 68% download the dvd 27 Aug 13:57
mccann of course they did 27 Aug 13:57
stickster Our goal was to find the right places to primarily feature choice, and the right places to de-emphasize it 27 Aug 13:57
drago01 stickster: yeah its way better than what we have now 27 Aug 13:57
mclasen right, thats the problem 27 Aug 13:57
Kevin_Kofler stickster: I think so too, my beef is with the requirements. ;-) 27 Aug 13:57
mccann dvd sounds better than cd 27 Aug 13:57
mizmo no 27 Aug 13:57
mccann and historically we had tons of cds and people went for the dvd instead 27 Aug 13:57
mizmo these are planet fedora and planet gnome readers who said this 27 Aug 13:57
drago01 hah! one more reason to drop cds! 27 Aug 13:58
caillon Kevin_Kofler, :-) 27 Aug 13:58
mccann that doesn't change the fact that the dvd is a wasteland 27 Aug 13:58
mizmo multiple people stated they felt the dvd was a safer way to upgrade 27 Aug 13:58
Kevin_Kofler Are the planets really a good sample of users? 27 Aug 13:58
stickster Kevin_Kofler: Which is why we had a discussion open on the FAB list about them. 27 Aug 13:58
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: they are a good sample of users who are in the community and know what they want 27 Aug 13:58
drago01 mizmo: downloading the livecd does not make sense if you want to upgrade 27 Aug 13:58
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: which is a great sample for creating a design that caters to our more advanced users 27 Aug 13:58
mccann the dvd doesn't make any sense in a "spin" world 27 Aug 13:58
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: which is what the more options pages ar emeant to do 27 Aug 13:58
Kevin_Kofler That makes sense. 27 Aug 13:59
mizmo mccann: there are a lot of people who consider spins only to be demoware 27 Aug 13:59
stickster mmcgrath: Feel free to hang here, although I know you have another meeting to attend 27 Aug 13:59
mclasen mizmo: that is a serious problem 27 Aug 13:59
notting the DVD spin has no target, which makes it somewhat bad 27 Aug 13:59
mclasen since the spins are what we are designing, the dvd is just a byproduct 27 Aug 13:59
stickster The DVD is basically the equivalent of "part of the release tree on a disc" 27 Aug 14:00
mizmo i can try to pull up the specific concerns voiced 27 Aug 14:00
mmcgrath stickster: I am 27 Aug 14:00
mmcgrath I have no real pain points with what remains except for time constraint worries 27 Aug 14:00
* stickster is a little lost what we're trying to solve with the current discussion 27 Aug 14:00
Kevin_Kofler Yeah, the DVD feels more and more like "take the contents of the Desktop/GNOME and KDE spins, throw in a couple random extra packages and stuff an installer on it". 27 Aug 14:00
mizmo "I rarely get the Spins as what I want is on the DVD and then net access. If I am using a spin.. its one I am building myself for a project that has no net access." 27 Aug 14:01
Kevin_Kofler KDE SIG also really only tests the KDE spin. 27 Aug 14:01
Kevin_Kofler And as mclasen is saying the same about GNOME/Desktop, that doesn't look too great for the DVD. 27 Aug 14:01
mizmo "the dvd gets all the packages and is for the installation. I also get the live iso to put it on usb and fix friends’ computers, or maybe use it to install fedora in case the dvd fails as happened in F11" 27 Aug 14:01
mizmo "for my own use, always the install DVD. also a Live image for sharing/playing with" 27 Aug 14:01
mizmo "I would like to add a thought: This last release was the first one I used liveCD to disk install and it is amazingly fast, unfortunately it didn’t play well on keeping other OSes on the hard drive (I was too exhausted to even report this one I just live with it) and I ended up with only f11 after the install, but still I think I will be using this from now on, otherwise I use network install directly from fedora mirrors, but it takes about an hour, 27 Aug 14:01
mizmo with liveCD – 10 minutes or less." 27 Aug 14:01
mccann currently the DVD is not designed at all and isn't one of the spins and is a wasteland of crap. 27 Aug 14:02
mccann we can fix that - but that is something we should do before promoting it 27 Aug 14:02
jwb this discussion has ventured into FESCo territory 27 Aug 14:02
Kevin_Kofler Do we need an "Installer DVD SIG"? ;-) 27 Aug 14:02
drago01 well the spins do not allow you to choose a different fs, could be fixed thought 27 Aug 14:02
mizmo "DVD for new/fast installs, Live for service/repair, netinst for server/no-X installs" 27 Aug 14:02
stickster jwb: I agree, I'm lost on why we're talking about this. 27 Aug 14:03
stickster What's the point here? Serious question, not being snarky 27 Aug 14:03
notting stickster: 'why promote the DVD if it's crap' 27 Aug 14:03
stickster Where are we suggsting promoting the DVD? 27 Aug 14:03
jwb where is it being promoted? 27 Aug 14:03
stickster *jinx :-) 27 Aug 14:03
mizmo i think the people who download the dvd know what they want 27 Aug 14:04
mizmo or need it to upgrade 27 Aug 14:04
mizmo sounds like the livemedia also overwrites dual boots 27 Aug 14:04
mizmo id ont know about the upgrade case 27 Aug 14:04
stickster I think we'd need to check that last claim out 27 Aug 14:04
stickster I don't recall that being the case 27 Aug 14:04
stickster But 27 Aug 14:04
mizmo but could we push the netinstall for people who are not addressed by the live media? 27 Aug 14:04
Kevin_Kofler The live media only overwrites other stuff if you don't know what you're doing. 27 Aug 14:04
notting stickster: it was stated that that was the initial option on he 'more options' page 27 Aug 14:04
drago01 mizmo: it does? afaik it doesn't 27 Aug 14:04
Kevin_Kofler There's a partitioning step in the installer just like on the DVD. 27 Aug 14:04
mizmo Kevin_Kofler: we're targeting the live media at people who don't know what they're doing 27 Aug 14:05
drago01 atleast for dualbooting with windows 27 Aug 14:05
Kevin_Kofler If you skip it, you get what you asked for. 27 Aug 14:05
Kevin_Kofler It's the same on the DVD. 27 Aug 14:05
mizmo maybe that needs a redesign them 27 Aug 14:05
drago01 Kevin_Kofler: with the exception that you cannot change the fs there 27 Aug 14:05
Kevin_Kofler True. 27 Aug 14:05
mccann mizmo: that's wrong. we target the livecds to everyone 27 Aug 14:05
mccann not just "people who don't know what they are doing" 27 Aug 14:06
Kevin_Kofler But people should be using the default anyway. ;-) 27 Aug 14:06
mizmo mccann: everyone includes people who don't know what they are doing, correct? 27 Aug 14:06
mizmo mccann: i did not say only 27 Aug 14:06
mccann in fact we don't even test the dvds really 27 Aug 14:06
mccann mizmo: ok 27 Aug 14:06
* stickster thinks that wide audience is part of the reason for wanting a bigger Live image. 27 Aug 14:06
notting i'd be happy with live + netinst 27 Aug 14:06
drago01 Kevin_Kofler: noticed that when some said "wanted to try btrfs but the livecd did not show an option" 27 Aug 14:06
stickster notting: That makes the most sense to me. 27 Aug 14:06
drago01 upgrades? 27 Aug 14:06
mizmo would anyone have an issue with replacing the dvd option with live + netinst? 27 Aug 14:06
stickster Either way you're downloading huge bits. 27 Aug 14:06
mizmo what do upgraders do? 27 Aug 14:06
notting mizmo: preupgrade, or netinst.iso + http upgrade 27 Aug 14:07
drago01 both suck 27 Aug 14:07
jwb or straight yum 27 Aug 14:07
drago01 sucks even more 27 Aug 14:07
mizmo notting: how does netinst.iso + http upgrade work? is that... workable? supported? 27 Aug 14:07
rdieter I think the dvd also serves those with low bandwidth (ie, don't want to have to download anything extra) 27 Aug 14:07
jwb we are not here to debate the merits of the various upgrade methodologies 27 Aug 14:07
mizmo so heres the thing 27 Aug 14:07
notting mizmo: you point to a http repo, select upgrade. should work bettre than DVD upgrade 27 Aug 14:07
mizmo i really wanna close out feedback on these tomorrow 27 Aug 14:07
mizmo so i can actually get them done in time for f12 27 Aug 14:08
stickster jwb: I think we're trying to figure out whether the DVD has a place in our web design 27 Aug 14:08
mizmo if it's one day till i wanna freeze that and we dont even know 27 Aug 14:08
mizmo (1) what we want to push as the way to upgrade 27 Aug 14:08
mizmo (2) whether or not we even want to advertise the DVD 27 Aug 14:08
mizmo well 27 Aug 14:08
mizmo im biting my nails right now 27 Aug 14:08
jwb stickster, which is fine. but if "DVD and preupgrade and yum and netinstall" all "suck", then that isn't helpful 27 Aug 14:08
mizmo i kind of thought 68% on a survey answer they want the DVD, okay i'll give them the dvd 27 Aug 14:09
stickster mizmo: Here's how I look at it. We're very late in F12 to alter the entire offering set, when we think the DVD might be an anchor for a lot of people. 27 Aug 14:09
mizmo looks like it's a lot more complicated than that 27 Aug 14:09
stickster Perhaps this should be set as a FUDCon topic: "Die DVD Die." 27 Aug 14:09
mizmo it's a little late right now to be making changes like 'completely pull the dvd' without having some sort of suitable replacement to serve the needs the dvd served 27 Aug 14:09
mizmo and again, 68% = a lot of needs 27 Aug 14:09
mizmo but this could be my cake sugar high wearing off 27 Aug 14:10
* stickster goes back to "It's OK for people to be disappointed, it's not OK for them to be surprised." 27 Aug 14:10
notting mizmo: at this stage, i suspect it needs to be an option, but i wouldn't make it the most prominent one 27 Aug 14:10
mizmo notting: okay so what do we make the most prominent 27 Aug 14:10
mclasen I think completely removing the dvd would be too radical this late 27 Aug 14:10
mizmo the other tabs we got are 27 Aug 14:10
mizmo desktop, arch, and activity 27 Aug 14:10
mizmo i think activity should probably not be prominent 27 Aug 14:10
mizmo i think it's between arch and desktop 27 Aug 14:10
mclasen but making it sufficiently non-prominent to avoid the 'dvd sounds better than cd, so I'll go for that' issue, woudl be nice 27 Aug 14:11
mizmo mclasen: i agree 100% 27 Aug 14:11
drago01 mizmo: not sure that many "users" know what "arch" is supposed to mean 27 Aug 14:11
mizmo drago01: it says 'architecture' in the mockup, im making abbreviations in chat 27 Aug 14:11
mizmo drago01: if that helps o_O 27 Aug 14:11
drago01 mizmo: no ... how many non developers/geeks know about cpu architectures or what that is? 27 Aug 14:12
mizmo drago01: we're not targetting non developers / non geeks though 27 Aug 14:12
drago01 mizmo: don't have a better suggestion thought 27 Aug 14:12
mizmo drago01: we're targetting 'tech-savvy users who may not necessarily use linux/foss' 27 Aug 14:12
mizmo drago01: and 'tech savvy users who use a different distro than fedora' 27 Aug 14:12
stickster drago01: Those people would already be served well by the general get.fp.o and front page. 27 Aug 14:12
tw2113 27 Aug 14:13
* tw2113 perks up 27 Aug 14:13
stickster mizmo: OK, so what's the question at this point? 27 Aug 14:13
* stickster hoping that the extra time is helping us answer questions, not just add more 27 Aug 14:13
mizmo stickster: which tab is the default tab for the download fedora pages: (1) architectures (2) desktops 27 Aug 14:13
dgilmore id say desktop 27 Aug 14:14
jwb desktop 27 Aug 14:14
tw2113 hmmm, yay this topic 27 Aug 14:14
drago01 yeah desktop 27 Aug 14:14
tw2113 "what is fedora's target audience" 27 Aug 14:14
drago01 tw2113: -ENOMEM 27 Aug 14:14
stickster tw2113: That's not really what we're discussing here, but thanks :-) 27 Aug 14:14
stickster mizmo: I'd say Desktop. 27 Aug 14:14
mizmo 27 Aug 14:14
* mizmo starts breaking out in hives 27 Aug 14:14
mizmo tw2113: bad question lol 27 Aug 14:14
mizmo okay 27 Aug 14:14
tw2113 i know 27 Aug 14:14
mizmo we do desktop then 27 Aug 14:14
dgilmore mizmo: no hives please ;) 27 Aug 14:15
tw2113 27 Aug 14:15
* tw2113 casts a heal spell on mizmo 27 Aug 14:15
mizmo dgilmore: im allergic to that question 27 Aug 14:15
stickster Next question? 27 Aug 14:15
mizmo tw2113: phew thanks, thought i was gonna need some phoenix down for a while there 27 Aug 14:15
mizmo oh 27 Aug 14:15
mizmo i didnt get any feedback on the spin details page 27 Aug 14:15
tw2113 art, foss, inkscape, gimp, freedom! 27 Aug 14:15
mizmo http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spin-details.png 27 Aug 14:15
mizmo looking ok so far? 27 Aug 14:16
tw2113 healing words 27 Aug 14:16
jwb mizmo, yes 27 Aug 14:16
dgilmore mizmo: i think thats looking good 27 Aug 14:16
mizmo yay 27 Aug 14:16
stickster mizmo: One thing we're missing there is the required route for "Help me Mommy" 27 Aug 14:16
dgilmore gives the sigs room to advertise, and provide lots of useful info 27 Aug 14:16
jwb stickster, "google 'download fedora'" ? 27 Aug 14:17
mizmo stickster: we could do a persistent slim banner in the right hand side of each tab to say, "Just want a Fedora that works? Go here." 27 Aug 14:17
stickster Well, with different text, that's probably the right answer 27 Aug 14:17
jwb ngh... 27 Aug 14:17
stickster i.e. This Fedora works! 27 Aug 14:17
jwb yeah, needs rewording 27 Aug 14:17
stickster  :-D 27 Aug 14:17
stickster I knew what you meant though, mizmo 27 Aug 14:17
mizmo lol 27 Aug 14:17
mizmo sorry 27 Aug 14:17
mizmo (*- -* ;;) 27 Aug 14:17
stickster "I've read this page, and I'm not sure I want this, or what I want. What do you give to new users like me?" 27 Aug 14:18
stickster That's not the text either, just the case I'm thinking of 27 Aug 14:18
mizmo "Me Tarzan, you Fedora" 27 Aug 14:18
stickster So we do the reciprocal version of what's on get.fp.o 27 Aug 14:18
mizmo stickster: yeppers 27 Aug 14:18
stickster They're dropping like flies. 27 Aug 14:19
mizmo yes 27 Aug 14:19
mizmo so i think im good 27 Aug 14:19
jwb 2 hours is the fedora meeting lifetime max 27 Aug 14:19
stickster mizmo: Other than that, I think this is a brilliant "individual spin" mockup 27 Aug 14:19
mizmo yay 27 Aug 14:19
stickster I love the way that it has secondary branding 27 Aug 14:19
mizmo  :) 27 Aug 14:20
stickster mizmo: *: Any other questions from anyone? 27 Aug 14:21
stickster About designs, requirements, et al.? 27 Aug 14:21
mizmo i think (hope) im good 27 Aug 14:21
mizmo i guess, if you got any more comments please try to get them to me by tomorrow 27 Aug 14:22
stickster mizmo: You've done an awesome job on this. 27 Aug 14:22
jwb so 27 Aug 14:23
jwb do we consider the design requirements closed now? 27 Aug 14:23
jwb so mizmo and ricky can actually start coding... 27 Aug 14:23
mizmo jwb: we need mocks before we can code :) 27 Aug 14:23
drago01_ yes we can't discuss this forever .. just go ahead and see how it does 27 Aug 14:23
stickster jwb: That's right. 27 Aug 14:23
stickster Pending the final designs that Mo is working on, we're good to go forward. 27 Aug 14:23
jwb finally 27 Aug 14:24
tw2113 do eet to eet 27 Aug 14:24
stickster I'm really excited that Fedora is going to look as fun as it is to run and be involved in. 27 Aug 14:24
stickster mizmo: Can't say it enough, superb job. 27 Aug 14:24
tw2113 fedora is going to look like a party? 27 Aug 14:24
mizmo  ;) tanks 27 Aug 14:24

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