Meeting:Docs IRC log 20080806

stickster	<meeting>	06 Aug 15:07
stickster	Sparks will capture the log and post with a summary.	06 Aug 15:08
stickster	Let's talk about wiki gardening	06 Aug 15:08
--- stickster (n=npfrield@fedora/stickster) changed topic: Fedora Documentation -- Wiki Gardening		06 Aug 15:08
* quaid pulls in just in time		06 Aug 15:08
stickster	woo-hoo!	06 Aug 15:08
quaid	I like whatever stickster just recommended :)	06 Aug 15:08
* Sparks would like a backup just in case		06 Aug 15:08
quaid	<meeting>	06 Aug 15:09
quaid	(to make it easier to find the start in the log)	06 Aug 15:09
quaid	oh, sorry!	06 Aug 15:09
ianweller	stickster already did that lol	06 Aug 15:09
* quaid looks at his buffer and moves on		06 Aug 15:09
ianweller	now we have to close the meeting tag twice! >.>	06 Aug 15:09
quaid	yeah, now I messed it up	06 Aug 15:09
stickster	's OK, doesn't count 'til quaid says so	06 Aug 15:09
stickster	It's a recursive meeting	06 Aug 15:09
quaid	ok, so ...	06 Aug 15:09
quaid	just to speak for a moment about page naming ...	06 Aug 15:10
quaid	well ...	06 Aug 15:10
quaid	I'm stuck mentally;	06 Aug 15:10
quaid	I see where we need to go to, but	06 Aug 15:10
quaid	i) don't have it clear enough to convince everyone here :)	06 Aug 15:10
quaid	ii) therefore don't have a clear plan to communicate widely	06 Aug 15:11
quaid	so, we don't need to take this meeting to work on/decide this _again_, but ...	06 Aug 15:11
quaid	anyone who hasn't weighed in on the discussion, please do so.	06 Aug 15:11
stickster	Otherwise we could talk about the big ticket gardening items, content-wise	06 Aug 15:11
* ianweller wonders how we're going to implement the new organization schema		06 Aug 15:11
quaid	Help_talk:Wiki_Structure	06 Aug 15:12
quaid	ianweller: yeah, we really need to get the mailing list active with that	06 Aug 15:12
* stickster would like to see us come out of this meeting with interested people having measurable task assignments, and having them written on a task list		06 Aug 15:12
quaid	in that I don't think we're going to solve it in a meeting, so I don't want to use ourselves up that way	06 Aug 15:12
quaid	ok, so, yeah	06 Aug 15:13
stickster	quaid: +1	06 Aug 15:13
quaid	just wanted to remind people to work on that too	06 Aug 15:13
stickster	yeppers	06 Aug 15:13
* stickster steals mizmo-ism		06 Aug 15:13
quaid	DocsProject/Tasks_(draft) ?	06 Aug 15:13
* quaid cannot get that page to load, hang on		06 Aug 15:14
quaid	ok, there we go; and	06 Aug 15:14
quaid	DocsProject/Tasks	06 Aug 15:15
quaid	DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks	06 Aug 15:15
zodbot	(at fedoraproject.org)	06 Aug 15:15
quaid	darnit, sorry, that was what I meant	06 Aug 15:15
quaid	ok, until :30	06 Aug 15:15
quaid	we'll throw out any task ideas and update that list	06 Aug 15:16
* quaid has the edit on that page		06 Aug 15:16
quaid	then we can spend untik :50 organizing/prioritizing.	06 Aug 15:16
quaid	sound OK?	06 Aug 15:16
stickster	cool beans	06 Aug 15:16
ianweller	sure	06 Aug 15:16
* quaid reorganizes using the Tasks_(Draft) scheme		06 Aug 15:16
quaid	ok, open for task ideas	06 Aug 15:17
quaid	what does the wiki need gardened?	06 Aug 15:17
ianweller	what zodbot needs is a snarfer that transforms Wiki links with double brackets into urls	06 Aug 15:17
stickster	* Reorg of packaging policy *	06 Aug 15:17
ianweller	;)	06 Aug 15:17
abadger1999	stickster: +1	06 Aug 15:17
quaid	* Renaming of end-user focused content (e.g. FedoraLive/LiveUSBHowTo)	06 Aug 15:18
stickster	* Moving obsolete stuff to Archive: *	06 Aug 15:18
* ke4qqq is late		06 Aug 15:18
quaid	* moving meeting minutes to Meeting:	06 Aug 15:18
quaid	ke4qqq: no worries; we are reviewing the wiki gardening tasks, first	06 Aug 15:19
quaid	working on throwing out random ideas, then org. and assign them.	06 Aug 15:19
quaid	* reorg DocsProject as a model of how to reorg a project pages	06 Aug 15:19
* quaid has that one there but wanted to post it :)		06 Aug 15:19
stickster	wow, major pruning there ;-)	06 Aug 15:19
stickster	* Find/prune orphans and dead links *	06 Aug 15:20
ianweller	* buy an ice cream cake after we're all done *	06 Aug 15:21
quaid	yeah, that one	06 Aug 15:21
stickster	yum	06 Aug 15:22
stickster	yum install icecreamcake	06 Aug 15:22
stickster	Any more?	06 Aug 15:23
quaid	disambiguation needs?	06 Aug 15:23
ianweller	steal mediawiki's templates for that?	06 Aug 15:24
quaid	* categorize all doc pages properly	06 Aug 15:24
quaid	* move all of them out of the Docs/*/ nesting	06 Aug 15:24
quaid	* set policy ofwhat is obsolete	06 Aug 15:25
quaid	N, N-1 or N, N-1, and N-2	06 Aug 15:25
* quaid thinks the latter, fwiw :)		06 Aug 15:25
ianweller	yes, the latter +1	06 Aug 15:26
stickster	quaid: Yeah, there's no harm in carrying "people who are getting around to upgrading"	06 Aug 15:26
quaid	yep	06 Aug 15:27
stickster	And with Archive: we can make everything else less googlejuicy	06 Aug 15:27
* quaid adds N+1 to that :D		06 Aug 15:27
quaid	stickster: b i n g o	06 Aug 15:28
stickster	We try never to think ahead.	06 Aug 15:28
quaid	ok, saving an update to that page	06 Aug 15:29
quaid	DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks	06 Aug 15:29
zodbot	(at fedoraproject.org)	06 Aug 15:29
quaid	seeing that list, anything else pop for anyone?	06 Aug 15:29
quaid	let's give this a few more minutes	06 Aug 15:29
* quaid reorganizes the order a bit		06 Aug 15:29
quaid	ok, if that's it on the task ideas	06 Aug 15:32
* quaid updates the org of that page		06 Aug 15:32
stickster	I think the Board asked for a +1 priority on package review guidelines. That will help FESCo drive more people to help with reviews.	06 Aug 15:33
quaid	ok, but page naming has to come first	06 Aug 15:34
quaid	right?	06 Aug 15:35
ianweller	agreed with both statements	06 Aug 15:35
* wonderer1 late to SORRY		06 Aug 15:36
quaid	np	06 Aug 15:36
quaid	stickster: I mean ... they can happen in parallel, but ultimately nothing can be renamed without knowing the final page naming	06 Aug 15:36
stickster	quaid: Yes, parallel would be a good thing.	06 Aug 15:37
* stickster trying not to get lost in process unless we have a definite length of tunnel, at the end of which is light		06 Aug 15:37
quaid	ok, so	06 Aug 15:38
quaid	any other thoughts on the priority there?	06 Aug 15:38
quaid	now, those are a mix of harder and easier tasks	06 Aug 15:39
stickster	3 and 5 at the top	06 Aug 15:39
stickster	8 and 10 are ongoing, very easy tasks for newbies	06 Aug 15:39
quaid	ah, we need to note that somewhow	06 Aug 15:40
quaid	should we make two categories here?	06 Aug 15:40
quaid	"olders and newbsters"	06 Aug 15:40
quaid	stickster: by "3 and 5 at the top" are you commenting on their difficulty or priority order?	06 Aug 15:41
stickster	quaid: Sorry, that was priority	06 Aug 15:41
stickster	Difficulty... I would say 7, 9, 11 are fairly tough	06 Aug 15:41
stickster	8 and 10 are easier.	06 Aug 15:42
quaid	so, two questions:	06 Aug 15:42
quaid	i) should we sort by difficulty? (seems sane to me)	06 Aug 15:42
stickster	Is this a task list?	06 Aug 15:42
stickster	If so, then sort by priority.	06 Aug 15:42
quaid	ii) stickster, how to move 3 and 5 to the top if we already have a 1 and 2	06 Aug 15:42
quaid	well, we could have two lists that sort by priority	06 Aug 15:43
quaid	just adjust the page nesting to have two sections	06 Aug 15:43
stickster	Two lists is fine -- one for vets, one for new folks	06 Aug 15:43
quaid	or just note the difficulty in the section	06 Aug 15:43
* quaid works up an edit of how that looks, one second		06 Aug 15:43
wonderer1	to 1) i would say no. I would find it better if for difficult tasks something a "godfather" stands beside...	06 Aug 15:43
* stickster happy someone else has an opinion to voice		06 Aug 15:44
stickster	I worry that the fact that very few people are speaking up is an indicator of how interested they are in these tasks.	06 Aug 15:44
quaid	well, we may not get assignment on them all	06 Aug 15:44
quaid	stickster: if people don't speak up with tasks, how do we know what interests them?	06 Aug 15:45
stickster	too true	06 Aug 15:45
quaid	I wouldn't worry too much, though; if we get an organized list first, we increase our chances across board	06 Aug 15:45
wonderer1	and for the "note the difficulty" I would find it as a newby hard to read HOW the note how the difficulty level should work is done... but maybe its a good idea. can we have a "demo" on DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks ?	06 Aug 15:45
zodbot	(at fedoraproject.org)	06 Aug 15:45
stickster	domestic disturbance, need to go -- back in 2 min	06 Aug 15:46
* wonderer1 get a coffee at this 2 min.		06 Aug 15:47
stickster	back	06 Aug 15:47
wonderer1	how should the "wiki gardening HowTo" page be designed or structured?	06 Aug 15:48
stickster	ianweller: Sparks: ke4qqq: Do any of these tasks sound like things you want to help with?	06 Aug 15:48
* quaid is doing a demo, one more moment pls		06 Aug 15:49
* ianweller got caught up in work and has to get it done soonish, sorry, i'll read the logs		06 Aug 15:49
ke4qqq	ke4qqq: moving meeting minutes to meeting: sounds easy	06 Aug 15:49
ke4qqq	errr talking to myself...	06 Aug 15:49
quaid	right, we need to work up the steps a bit	06 Aug 15:50
quaid	e.g., links on from pages need to be fixed, which is easy with the "What links here" page	06 Aug 15:50
quaid	DocsProject/WikiGardening/Tasks	06 Aug 15:50
zodbot	(at fedoraproject.org)	06 Aug 15:50
quaid	ok, org'd by difficulty, sorted by priority	06 Aug 15:50
* quaid removes tertiary sections		06 Aug 15:51
stickster	That looks good on a tty at least :-)	06 Aug 15:51
quaid	quadenary!	06 Aug 15:51
stickster	Anyone else care to comment?	06 Aug 15:52
quaid	ok, so there they are, now we need to talk about assignments	06 Aug 15:53
ke4qqq	one quick comment	06 Aug 15:53
* wonderer1 would go for Find and prune orphans and dead links		06 Aug 15:53
quaid	wonderer1: that's great; let's quickly figure out how that process looks so we can put it in the task.	06 Aug 15:54
ke4qqq	It'd be nice to see a definitive list of what the elements of a good page are. ie category, etc.	06 Aug 15:54
stickster	ke4qqq: Wow, good point.	06 Aug 15:54
ke4qqq	that may exist but I haven't seen it	06 Aug 15:54
quaid	is that part of Help:Wiki_Structure?	06 Aug 15:54
quaid	should that be, that is	06 Aug 15:54
wonderer1	quaid: take one section by another, look over the pages, see if there are dead links and such stuff, delete it or correct ist...?!	06 Aug 15:55
quaid	or do we need a stand-alone page for that?	06 Aug 15:55
stickster	Example_wiki_page	06 Aug 15:55
stickster	But yes.	06 Aug 15:55
quaid	wonderer1: right for dead links; orphaned pages are ones that nothing links to, and we need to find if there is somewhere to link it from, etc.	06 Aug 15:55
* quaid adds the page structure task		06 Aug 15:55
stickster	wonderer1: There are ways that MediaWiki can give you that information, using the Special: functions	06 Aug 15:56
quaid	Special:Specialpages	06 Aug 15:56
stickster	wonderer1: Let's leave that for after the meeting, come over to #fedora-docs and we can all talk there	06 Aug 15:56
quaid	1	06 Aug 15:56
wonderer1	stickster: I know, but at this time I'm not familiar with all of that. but google is my friend I think ;-)	06 Aug 15:57
stickster	ke4qqq: I would say, you just volunteered to write that Example_wiki_page. ;-)	06 Aug 15:57
ke4qqq	I don't mind, as long as people will add what is missing	06 Aug 15:57
quaid	ke4qqq: of course!	06 Aug 15:57
ke4qqq	as I am not sure I know what all of the elements are.	06 Aug 15:57
stickster	ke4qqq: You betcha, just email the list to let us know you're ready for more carpenteres.	06 Aug 15:57
quaid	just a catalystis needed, as usual	06 Aug 15:57
stickster	*carpenters	06 Aug 15:57
quaid	wonderer1: what is your FAS user name?	06 Aug 15:58
wonderer1	wonderer	06 Aug 15:58
quaid	:D	06 Aug 15:58
* stickster notes we're at closing -2 minutes		06 Aug 15:58
wonderer1	without the "1" :-)	06 Aug 15:58
stickster	What about other task assignments?	06 Aug 15:58
quaid	I've got the page naming	06 Aug 15:59
stickster	quaid: If you want to drive the naming policy to a close for next week	06 Aug 15:59
stickster	ha, jinx	06 Aug 15:59
stickster	I'll see what I can do to start changing the package review guidelines stuff	06 Aug 15:59
quaid	hmm	06 Aug 15:59
stickster	probably in line with http://tinyurl.com/55ay2f	06 Aug 15:59
quaid	I wonder if there is a packager who wants to help?	06 Aug 15:59
stickster	Sure would be nice	06 Aug 16:00
stickster	Maybe I can get someone on FESCo to help with it ;-)	06 Aug 16:00
* stickster sees the clock may have run out of sand		06 Aug 16:00
stickster	Is someone in this channel directly following us?	06 Aug 16:01
Sparks	stickster: Usually there is a meeting right after us	06 Aug 16:01
stickster	Sparks: You're alive!	06 Aug 16:01
stickster	;-)	06 Aug 16:01
quaid	whoops, time to wrap up	06 Aug 16:02
quaid	yep, FAMSco or somebody :)	06 Aug 16:02
quaid	anything else, we can talk in #fedora-docs	06 Aug 16:02
fugolini	take you time :)	06 Aug 16:02
stickster	fugolini: Nope, we're out of here, it's all yours!	06 Aug 16:02
fugolini	feel free to finish	06 Aug 16:02
quaid	</meeting>	06 Aug 16:02
quaid	</meeting>	06 Aug 16:02

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