From Fedora Project Wiki
| quaid | <meeting> | 12:04 |
|---|---|---|
| quaid | :) | 12:04 |
| quaid | no, I got lost and never made it to the agenda this morning | 12:04 |
| quaid | it's essentially the same | 12:04 |
| quaid | I was hoping ianweller_afk and G might be here, but I think their thuoghts are well known | 12:05 |
| quaid | about wiki page naming | 12:05 |
| quaid | but I think we need a compromise, I think I know what it has to be, and it is not that great but not terrible. | 12:05 |
| couf | G is on IRC-break | 12:05 |
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| quaid | couf: as an action to protect his life and sanity? or just AFK? | 12:06 |
| couf | the former | 12:06 |
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| quaid | ok | 12:07 |
| quaid | well, like I said, opinion known, etc. :) | 12:07 |
| quaid | ok, so here's my agenda, any additions? | 12:09 |
| quaid | 1. finish wiki page naming | 12:09 |
| quaid | 2. scope package guidelines changes | 12:09 |
| couf | I'm is totally out the loop, but I guess you guys made some good arguments and can make a good decision about it | 12:09 |
| quaid | 3. double-check on release deadlines | 12:09 |
| quaid | 4. ?? | 12:10 |
| quaid | couf: 17 < quaid> overholt: can you refresh me on what came from talks with JPackage and Fedora? | 12:10 |
| quaid | ... | 12:10 |
| quaid | sorry, bad paste | 12:10 |
| quaid | Help_talk:Wiki_Structure | 12:10 |
| quaid | couf: that's the discussion we had, worth a catch up on | 12:10 |
| quaid | ok, if we have any other agenda items ... | 12:11 |
| couf | quaid: thanks | 12:11 |
| ke4qqq | quaid can we add Example_wiki_page to the agenda | 12:11 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: thx | 12:12 |
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| * stickster gets off phone with mgr | 12:15 | |
| couf | we can move to -meeting if we want to | 12:15 |
| stickster | yeah, what couf said ^^ | 12:16 |
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| quaid | </meeting action="move_to_-meeting"> | 12:18 |
| quaid | <meeting> | 12:18 |
| -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Docs : Wiki page naming | 12:18 | |
| quaid | ok, figuring couf has caught up a bit | 12:18 |
| quaid | I have to admit I've waffled again :) | 12:18 |
| quaid | because the compromise position is different from the hardline MediaWiki one | 12:19 |
| quaid | so I'm back to this: | 12:19 |
| quaid | 1. Foo_Project/ and Foo_SIG/ effectively separate contributor-focused content, by subject areas, away from end-user content | 12:20 |
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| quaid | 2. Help_with_Foo is the best way to do *all* end-user focused content; all such content can be moved from e.g. SELinux/FAQ to FAQ_for_SELinux | 12:20 |
| quaid | 3. Then we move all meeting stuff to Meeting:, archive stuff to Archive:, all without changing any other part of the name | 12:21 |
| quaid | the controversy is around 1. | 12:21 |
| quaid | here are my reasons why I think that has to be the compromise: | 12:21 |
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| quaid | * it's too hard to explain why a massive change of everything to people who *like* stuff organized by Nested/Folders | 12:21 |
| quaid | * People will get the need to have Real_named_documents, due to search, readibility, etc. | 12:22 |
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| * jsmith realizes the time and sneaks in | 12:22 | |
| quaid | * We can likely convince people to accept moving names _within_ the Foo_Project/ space | 12:22 |
| * quaid pm's the status to jsmith | 12:22 | |
| quaid | * Since contributors like, are used to, and don't care much about changing from nesting (all guessed by me without a single poll!), why make them move? | 12:23 |
| quaid | * Don't make the Foo_Project nesting a requirement either way, let people do it themselves | 12:24 |
| quaid | * We give clear guidelines on how to clean up what is there and how to name in the future | 12:24 |
| quaid | <eolist><eof> | 12:24 |
| quaid | thoughts? | 12:24 |
| * ke4qqq respectfully disagrees | 12:24 | |
| quaid | yay! | 12:24 |
| quaid | go ahead | 12:24 |
| ke4qqq | thinks single guide to doing it is best.....do it nested or plaintext | 12:25 |
| ke4qqq | plaintext is better for searching | 12:25 |
| quaid | the / doesn't get in the way | 12:25 |
| ke4qqq | pain is no worse for doing some renaming as it is to doing all renaming | 12:25 |
| quaid | it's treated by the search tool as a space | 12:25 |
| ke4qqq | does google agree with that though? | 12:25 |
| ke4qqq | does google treat it as a space? | 12:25 |
| quaid | how do we test that? | 12:26 |
| quaid | I mean, I google for "live usb how to" and the right page turns up | 12:26 |
| quaid | and it has zero spaces, it's all nested CamelCase | 12:26 |
| ke4qqq | hmmm what do I know then | 12:26 |
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| jsmith | Yes, I think Google does the right thing | 12:26 |
| quaid | ke4qqq: you are right that ambiguity on our part is lame | 12:26 |
| quaid | " | 12:26 |
| quaid | Nest or not, who cares?" | 12:26 |
| quaid | we should guide people to not nest | 12:26 |
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| quaid | but tell them they can change it or not, it's up to them, just get the damn sub_pages renamed so they can be found | 12:27 |
| ke4qqq | we just need to pick out one | 12:27 |
| quaid | DocsProject | 12:27 |
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| quaid | SIGs/Font was already done by nim-nim | 12:27 |
| quaid | there is a lot of inertia in the nesting, unless we are prepared to do it all ourselves, we are in the position of convincing others of what is best | 12:28 |
| quaid | and there is a lot of legacy | 12:28 |
| jsmith | We can't force others to do the right thing... all we can do is explain correct principles in such a way that they want to do the right thing | 12:29 |
| jsmith | I think it's a matter of explaining why what they're used to is a bad idea | 12:29 |
| ke4qqq | so if searching isn't the reason - why not use nested? | 12:29 |
| jsmith | I thought searching was the reason | 12:30 |
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| * ke4qqq is confused | 12:30 | |
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| quaid | ke4qqq: the nesting would all have to be single words | 12:30 |
| quaid | this would work though, in terms of MW search: | 12:30 |
| quaid | Foo_Project/Tool_docs/Doc_about_something | 12:31 |
| quaid | it's not natural language, but it would turn up for searches on "Tool" " | 12:31 |
| quaid | "something" and "foo" | 12:31 |
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| couf | fwiw I'm +1 with quaid's compromise | 12:33 |
| quaid | jsmith: I'm not convinced we can explain the "why" well enough to get a higher rate of compliance, if the "what" involves completely renaming every single page | 12:34 |
| quaid | if the "what" is, "Do this now to make your stuff findable, do this in the future to make it good, here is the best and recommended way," then I think the why goes over better. | 12:34 |
| couf | renaming every page is just overkill and loss of manpower | 12:34 |
| quaid | couf: and if it's really worth it, it will happen for most pages over time anyway | 12:35 |
| couf | true | 12:35 |
| jsmith | quaid: I hate to even ask this out loud, but if we can't explain the "why" well enough, then why are we wasting our time? | 12:38 |
| ke4qqq | has to admit that is a question I was asking myself | 12:38 |
| quaid | now now | 12:38 |
| jsmith | Playing devil's advocate here for a second -- don't get upset at me :-) | 12:38 |
| quaid | two main reasons: | 12:39 |
| quaid | * we need natural language with spaces to get search to be useful | 12:39 |
| quaid | * we need natural language for sane translation | 12:39 |
| quaid | sane(r) trans, anyway | 12:39 |
| jsmith | OK, I'm perfectly happy with those reasons. | 12:39 |
| quaid | i.e., nesting and idioms don't mix well | 12:39 |
| jsmith | But you don't think we can articulate those reasons in such a way that people will want to do the right thing with regards to wiki naming? | 12:40 |
| quaid | so, our "why" covers that but does not fully justify the removing of the single-level of nesting | 12:40 |
| * quaid notes search results are a bit funky with Foo_Project all grouped together, but the quality of that is a matter of taste. | 12:41 | |
| ke4qqq | those are satisfactory reasons but if they are good enough to remove most nesting why not all. | 12:41 |
| quaid | there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a single-level of nesting | 12:41 |
| quaid | it gets us a sorting of content by contributor interest area without using the more restrictive Namespace: trick in MW | 12:42 |
| quaid | Namespace: moves it outside of the default search | 12:42 |
| quaid | this all stems from having two audiences, IMO | 12:42 |
| quaid | and it being confusing to either audience to find e.g. end-user docs in the contributor search results | 12:43 |
| * stickster is assuming all bets are off in the User: namespace | 12:44 | |
| quaid | yep | 12:45 |
| quaid | in fact, that's something we do want to specify; use that area at will | 12:46 |
| stickster | Discussion seems to have petered out. | 12:48 |
| stickster | Has a decision been taken then? | 12:48 |
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| stickster | Is wiki naming put to bed now? | 12:48 |
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| * ke4qqq didn't see a decision | 12:49 | |
| wonderer1 | so what are so far the naming conventions? if users did not do their own user. name naming... | 12:50 |
| * couf hopes to put it to bed | 12:50 | |
| * ke4qqq is fine with decision by fiat | 12:51 | |
| wonderer1 | for me it works fine. just want to know befor I start with orphaned pages and so on... | 12:51 |
| stickster | quaid: Can you summarize the final decision on how we're going to do this? | 12:51 |
| quaid | hmm | 12:53 |
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| quaid | I think it's basically on Help:Wiki_Naming (a name that doesn't quite follow the directions) | 12:53 |
| quaid | I can do a final write up there | 12:54 |
| wonderer1 | sounds good | 12:54 |
| quaid | but before I say "this is the decision" | 12:54 |
| quaid | are we in fact decided? | 12:54 |
| quaid | the objections that ke4qqq brings up are the same ones I hear in other places, | 12:54 |
| stickster | Let's make this clear. | 12:55 |
| quaid | so this is what I would like to do: | 12:55 |
| quaid | * Write up a decision to vote up or down on the mailing list | 12:55 |
| quaid | * invite discussion | 12:55 |
| * jsmith wonders if he haven't already had enough discussion (how many weeks has this been on the agenda?) | 12:56 | |
| stickster | Wait, haven't we had that before? | 12:56 |
| * ke4qqq disagrees - we've tried discussion (me once, ian once, and quaid once) and none ensued | 12:56 | |
| quaid | * see if we can get a good "why" page from that discussion as a reason behind the "what" in Help:Wiki_structure | 12:56 |
| quaid | hmm | 12:56 |
| jsmith | I say we vote here, now, and then work to get a good "why" page up | 12:56 |
| * couf needs to run, sorry folks | 12:56 | |
| quaid | fine | 12:57 |
| stickster | couf: Please vote later by email if desired | 12:57 |
| ke4qqq | jsmith: +1 | 12:57 |
| couf | stickster: will do | 12:57 |
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| * jsmith would rather get flamed for a quick vote than see this drag on for another month | 12:57 | |
| stickster | jsmith: +1 | 12:57 |
| quaid | +1 or -1 to: Do we permit _Project and _SIG content to remain under a single nesting? | 12:58 |
| couf | +1 | 12:58 |
| stickster | +1 | 12:58 |
| jsmith | I have no problem with single nesting personally | 12:58 |
| jsmith | +1 | 12:58 |
| wonderer1 | +1 | 12:58 |
| ke4qqq | +1 | 12:58 |
| quaid | I'm +1, fwiw | 12:58 |
| stickster | yay! | 12:58 |
| quaid | ok, then we have ianweller_afk outvoted anyway :) | 12:58 |
| quaid | note: permit, not encourage :) | 12:58 |
| couf | +1 :) | 12:59 |
| stickster | +1 again. | 12:59 |
| quaid | everyone watch that page | 12:59 |
| quaid | Help:Wiki_structure | 12:59 |
| * couf really runs | 12:59 | |
| quaid | and I'll write up the final version | 12:59 |
| quaid | unless someone else feels it is clear to them and wants to do it :) | 13:00 |
| * jsmith makes a motion to propose that quaid do it | 13:00 | |
| * stickster +1's jsmith and then slaps him | 13:01 | |
| quaid | time's up anyway | 13:01 |
| quaid | I'll do it | 13:01 |
| quaid | anything more, see you on #fedora-docs | 13:01 |
| quaid | </meeting> | 13:01 |
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