Meeting:IRC Support Channel log 20080626

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Contents

2008 June 26 IRC Support Meeting

Members Present

NAME IRC Nick
Kevin Fenzi nirik
Dams Nade Anvil
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams ivazquez
Ben Williams Southern_Gentlem
Scott Glaser Sonar_Guy
Steve Barber roguedaemon
Paul W. Frields stickster
Shawn Starr spstarr_work
Rex Dieter rdieter
Ian Weller ianweller
Jeffrey Tadlock iWolf
Arthur Pemberton pembo13
Warren Togami warren
Sebastian Dziallas sdziallas
Will Woods wwoods
Jason Taylor jmtaylor
Rudolf Kastl che
Jesse Keating f13
Mike McGrath mmcgrath

Summary

Problem Scope

IRC support needs to be improved. There is a shortage of good helpers, and operators to maintain order in the #fedora channel. The channel has many "non helpfull" helpers in it. Support is sometimes inconsistent or not present. We should be able to organize support efforts, attract more helpers and assist more users.

Action Items

  1. Memo the ops list and ask about being involved or not. (DONE)
  2. Start pointing users posting off topic posts to #fedora-social.
  3. Add some new ops (roguedaemon and nirik). (DONE)
  4. Discuss next meeting and post to Fedora-Devel-List.

Misc

  • The next IRC Support Team meeting will take place in #fedora-meeting beginning TBD on TBD.
  • Decide if we should form a support SIG.
  • Figure out how to get more helpers/schedule shifts.

Long term ideas

  • A 'support wizard' type app. Users could be directed to it to gather information and also point them to solutions for common problems.

(This could be shared with other support types).

  • Guidelines and orginization around all support types (mailing lists, talk, forums).
  • A channel bot for various needs.

Log

Jun 26 12:30:36 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support brainstorming session - Init
Jun 26 12:30:51 <nirik>	who's here for the irc support brainstorming session? 
Jun 26 12:30:55 <Anvil>	_o/
Jun 26 12:31:00 *	jmtaylor waves
Jun 26 12:31:03 <ivazquez>	I am.
Jun 26 12:31:05 -->	ianweller (n=ianwelle@66.232.222.84) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:31:08 <Sonar_Guy>	Me too
Jun 26 12:31:55 <roguedaemon>	aye
Jun 26 12:32:03 *	ianweller 
Jun 26 12:32:05 -->	sdziallas (n=sebastia@p57A2C6C4.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:32:15 <nirik>	stickster: you still around? 
Jun 26 12:32:23 <stickster>	nirik: I am
Jun 26 12:32:34 <nirik>	excellent... 
Jun 26 12:32:42 *	rdieter is listening
Jun 26 12:32:51 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support brainstorming session - Problem scope
Jun 26 12:32:55 <--	mccann has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 26 12:33:19 -->	fchiulli (i=824c4011@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a4a5f7cd4e701430) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:33:21 <nirik>	ok, so has everyone seen the thread on the fedora-devel list? do we agree that we need to improve 
                        things in #fedora? 
Jun 26 12:33:26 -->	ChitleshGoorah (n=chitlesh@fedora/ChitleshGoorah) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:33:32 <ivazquez>	I think #fedora is a lost cause.
Jun 26 12:33:33 ---	knurd is now known as knurd_afk
Jun 26 12:33:45 <ianweller>	i think things can be improved if we work at it
Jun 26 12:34:09 <spstarr_work>	punt the bad apples out?
Jun 26 12:34:10 <rdieter>	ianweller: +1
Jun 26 12:34:11 <spstarr_work>	:-)
Jun 26 12:34:19 <nirik>	ivazquez: expand on that? you think a new channel could work? or it's hopeless to provide any irc 
                        support?
Jun 26 12:34:38 <ivazquez>	I think a new channel would be a better idea.
Jun 26 12:34:54 <Anvil>	i understand ivazquez point of view : most of people are clueless, most of helpers are fed up. But 
                        it shouldnt prevent us to try.
Jun 26 12:34:56 -->	Stalwart (n=stalwart@86.57.10.154) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:34:58 <ianweller>	all we'd be doing is moving the old badness to the new channel
Jun 26 12:35:03 <ivazquez>	#fedora has at least a couple of regulars that are... less than helpful.
Jun 26 12:35:05 <Sonar_Guy>	Anvil: +1
Jun 26 12:35:07 <roguedaemon>	irc problems are timeless
Jun 26 12:35:11 *	nirik doesn't think it matters what we call the channel...
Jun 26 12:35:19 <ianweller>	there's nothing we can prevent by just changing the channel name.
Jun 26 12:35:20 <nirik>	ivazquez: agreed. 
Jun 26 12:35:37 <iWolf_>	ianweller: agreed.
Jun 26 12:35:47 ---	iWolf_ is now known as iWolf
Jun 26 12:35:48 <rdieter>	ivazquez: ok, can we focus on that a second... who?  what can we do about it?
Jun 26 12:36:08 <Anvil>	ianweller : agreed, too.
Jun 26 12:36:20 <nirik>	so, what can we do, both short term/now, and longer term? I had some ideas about a fedora-helpers 
                        group, but not sure thats the right way to go... 
Jun 26 12:36:25 -->	cebbert (n=cebbert@156.sub-75-221-246.myvzw.com) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:36:29 <ivazquez>	I'm not going to name names, and TBH I don't need to. Spend a few hours in there when they're 
                                active and you'll see them clear as day.
Jun 26 12:36:48 <ianweller>	can we make support in #fedora something for contributors to do? like, have a join/sponsorship 
                                process and all that?
Jun 26 12:36:55 -->	pembo13 (n=chatzill@CPE-24-163-204-124.kc.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:36:57 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  more people with a sense of duty/purpose tends to change overall atmosphere
Jun 26 12:37:02 <rdieter>	ivazquez: ok, if they're a problem, someone needs to do something.  Pull them aside, whatever.
Jun 26 12:37:13 <nirik>	ianweller: that was my thought, but that makes things a lot more formalized, which is both good and bad. 
Jun 26 12:37:27 <ianweller>	nirik: i see more good than bad. what bad do you see
Jun 26 12:37:35 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  i saw someone mention voice
Jun 26 12:38:19 <nirik>	well, ricky pointed out that if we voice helpers, or otherwise make it so users can tell who to listen 
                        to, then we are stratifying things... so some people might not want to help because 
                        they aren't in the helpers group...
Jun 26 12:38:33 <roguedaemon>	and difficult to maintain
Jun 26 12:38:33 <ivazquez>	Something I've been bouncing around is having the support channel be outside IRC, say on a Jabber server.
Jun 26 12:38:38 <nirik>	or their may be disagreements with helpers and non helpers... ie, you are making it a caste type system
Jun 26 12:38:39 <--	JSchmitt_ has quit ("Konversation terminated!")
Jun 26 12:38:46 <roguedaemon>	right...
Jun 26 12:39:05 <roguedaemon>	how about we all just practice leading by example?
Jun 26 12:39:06 <warren>	Perhaps IRC is just a bad medium for modern day?  It encourages drive-by questions without following 
                                the "how to ask smart questions" rules.  by its nature people ask the same questions all day every day 
                                without searching for past discussions like you would on a web forum.
Jun 26 12:39:06 <Anvil>	voice would be a way to recognize "official" helpers, thought it's not helping on the real problem.
Jun 26 12:39:09 <roguedaemon>	:)
Jun 26 12:39:18 <nirik>	ivazquez: I think thats a great idea, but I think irc still has a place. We should get irc, jabber, 
                        mailing lists, forums, and even (shudder) phone support all on the same page. 
Jun 26 12:39:24 <iWolf>	centos seems to run a pretty tight channel on most days.
Jun 26 12:39:38 <rdieter>	iWolf: define "tight" ?
Jun 26 12:39:48 <Anvil>	warren : you got a point, though sometimes, real problems can be solved way faster than forum.
Jun 26 12:39:49 <nirik>	Anvil: so what is the real problem? 
Jun 26 12:39:53 <pembo13>	ivazquez: did you have Jabber collaboration tools in mind?
Jun 26 12:39:54 <iWolf>	rdieter: they seem to keep things in order and they encourage smart questions.
Jun 26 12:39:56 <warren>	IRC works as a social group for users to "hang out" and mindlessly talk about their shared Fedora-ness, 
                                but it requires constant repetitive work for "helpful" people
Jun 26 12:39:58 <ivazquez>	Maybe have a custom client where the helpers log on with credentials, and people requesting help will 
                                automagically get a public Smolt ID generated and the helper can see the configuration from there.
Jun 26 12:40:05 <Anvil>	nirik : "the mess" it is.
Jun 26 12:40:06 <roguedaemon>	i see #fedora with moments of greatness also, it is possible
Jun 26 12:40:10 <Anvil>	nirik : the endless repetition
Jun 26 12:40:12 <iWolf>	rdieter: which seems to be done by acting like leaders.
Jun 26 12:40:13 -->	DemonJester (n=bpowell0@mod001-notes1.modpac.com) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:40:19 <--	KageSenshi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 26 12:40:24 <ivazquez>	pembo13: Not really. It might have to be fully custom.
Jun 26 12:40:24 <Anvil>	nirik : the neverlearning people, the now-sarcastic once-helpful people..
Jun 26 12:40:32 <pembo13>	ivazquez: that sounds ideal
Jun 26 12:40:35 <rdieter>	iWolf: good, what do we need to do to emulate/copy that?
Jun 26 12:40:44 <warren>	repetition and lack of search makes it a less than ideal use of time for volunteers
Jun 26 12:40:47 *	nirik sees two big things we can concentrate on: stopping the "unhelpfull helpers", and trying to organize the 
                        helpfull helpers (shifts, sharing info, etc)
Jun 26 12:40:48 <ivazquez>	Well, not quite ideal since it needs to be written :P
Jun 26 12:40:58 <--	bpepple|lt has quit ("Ex-Chat")
Jun 26 12:41:06 <iWolf>	rdieter: i would say a few regulars that can enforce some sanity to the channel without abusing 
                        their power.
Jun 26 12:41:14 <sdziallas>	ivazquez: i remember a program in a german computer magazine establishing a vpn 
                                connection...
Jun 26 12:41:15 <ivazquez>	But I can write out a more complete proposal and submit it somehow.
Jun 26 12:41:18 <iWolf>	rdieter: and point non-fedora tech talk to #fedora-social.
Jun 26 12:41:19 <pembo13>	warren: if a custom solution is being sough, full CRM like tools for frequnt links can be incoperated
Jun 26 12:41:28 <ivazquez>	Nah, it'd just use Jabber via telepathy.
Jun 26 12:41:32 <rdieter>	iWolf: thanks, sounds good.
Jun 26 12:41:34 <warren>	I'm pretty convinced that a web forum (while lots of problems) allows fewer volunteers to service more 
                                volunteers
Jun 26 12:41:44 <--	tibbs has quit (Connection timed out)
Jun 26 12:41:44 <warren>	err
Jun 26 12:41:46 <--	tibbs|h has quit (Connection timed out)
Jun 26 12:41:49 <warren>	you know
Jun 26 12:42:08 <ivazquez>	Web forums tend to not be realtime enough for some issues.
Jun 26 12:42:26 <Sonar_Guy>	ivazquez: +1
Jun 26 12:42:29 <wwoods>	warren: yeah, that's absolutely true, but it also serves a slightly different set of problems
Jun 26 12:42:34 <pembo13>	i used to try to help out at fedoraforum and linuxquestions long ago.. not as "nice" somehow
Jun 26 12:42:34 <nirik>	again, I think we should provide all the support methods we can... providing forums 
                       doesn't mean we shouldn't do irc. 
Jun 26 12:42:41 <iWolf>	nirik: +1
Jun 26 12:43:02 <ianweller>	if we don't do IRC, IRC will pop up on its own
Jun 26 12:43:04 <rdieter>	for stuff that's not irc-worthy, refer to fedoraforum.org then?
Jun 26 12:43:04 <warren>	nirik: right
Jun 26 12:43:08 <nirik>	but I think currently all the support channels are run differently, don't talk to each other, and have 
                        differing ways to try and help
Jun 26 12:43:13 *	Southern_Gentlem here
Jun 26 12:43:34 <nirik>	so, I wrote up some prelim ideas at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/DRAFT-IRCSupportConduct
Jun 26 12:43:34 <--	notting (n=notting@redhat/notting) has left #fedora-meeting ("Ex-Chat")
Jun 26 12:43:57 <warren>	would anyone want to separate the "fedora social" from support channel?
Jun 26 12:43:57 <Anvil>	i've helped people on forum.fedora-fr.org, maybe 1year or 18months.. people just dont learn on 
                        forums either
Jun 26 12:44:08 <Southern_Gentlem>	!
Jun 26 12:44:09 <nirik>	I am thinking much of that is longer term/etc.
Jun 26 12:44:12 <rdieter>	warren: makes sense, yes.
Jun 26 12:44:16 <Sonar_Guy>	warren: +1
Jun 26 12:44:19 <pembo13>	maybe the ideal is a single client for "helpers" that incorporates all the mediums
Jun 26 12:44:27 <warren>	(I mean, i'm not sure that would work, but it is a thought.)
Jun 26 12:44:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	warren social already exist
Jun 26 12:44:45 <ivazquez>	Beware the word "all".
Jun 26 12:44:46 <warren>	pembo13: filtering through all the irrelevant crap is one problem
Jun 26 12:44:50 <Anvil>	warren : different signal/noise. yeah +1
Jun 26 12:44:56 <nirik>	yeah, I think thats a good step. 
Jun 26 12:45:02 <pembo13>	warren: true
Jun 26 12:45:21 <--	ChitleshGoorah has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Jun 26 12:45:34 <rdieter>	Southern_Gentlem: what do you think are the biggest challenges to making #fedora useful?
Jun 26 12:45:43 <roguedaemon>	we all should remember freenode's charter, and try to maintain a more professional overall atmosphere
Jun 26 12:45:56 <roguedaemon>	irc jadedness is contagious sometimes, i know
Jun 26 12:45:59 <Southern_Gentlem>	Anvil do you see the problem as i do,  we need a policy and enough opes beside me and you on a 
                                        daily basis to enforce said policy
Jun 26 12:46:29 <ianweller>	are we getting anywhere in this conversation?
Jun 26 12:46:36 <Sonar_Guy>	Southern_Gentlem: I agree and think that is where we need to start.
Jun 26 12:46:40 <ivazquez>	Very slowly.
Jun 26 12:46:51 <ianweller>	what have we got so far, other than "#fedora is broken"
Jun 26 12:46:58 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: agreed, those are good short term goals. 
Jun 26 12:47:01 <Southern_Gentlem>	rdieter, that is the first thing we have to address the rest is gravy down the road
Jun 26 12:47:08 <ivazquez>	"Perhaps another mechanism would be better."
Jun 26 12:47:09 <warren>	(btw, who among here is a #fedora channel op?)
Jun 26 12:47:14 <Anvil>	Southern_Gentlem : more chanops, yeah over more timezones. We need a policy - whatever that would be.
Jun 26 12:47:15 *	ivazquez is
Jun 26 12:47:16 <rdieter>	likes https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/DRAFT-IRCSupportConduct  , anyone else?
Jun 26 12:47:27 *	Sonar_Guy is
Jun 26 12:47:28 <nirik>	any comments/thoughts on my wiki page guidelines? (ignoring perhaps the +v stuff)
Jun 26 12:47:33 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik we have to take back over the channel first to move to the other steps
Jun 26 12:47:35 <Anvil>	but we need more tools
Jun 26 12:47:55 <nirik>	warren: I am not, just an aggitator. ;) 
Jun 26 12:48:07 <ivazquez>	The hard part is reclaiming the channel. It's going to be an upward battler for many weeks, if not months.
Jun 26 12:48:08 *	rdieter would be happy to help op'ing, but needs some irc-fu training/practice
Jun 26 12:48:12 <Southern_Gentlem>	all except ops being opped which the freenode guidelines frown on as well
Jun 26 12:48:15 <Anvil>	look at #alsa, they have a script that will give _all_ basic useful details to give helpers a good start
Jun 26 12:48:16 <ivazquez>	*battle
Jun 26 12:48:20 <iWolf>	nirik: for off-topic, ops should remind them to go to fedora-social first.
Jun 26 12:48:42 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: yeah, we can drop that... 
Jun 26 12:48:50 <nirik>	iWolf: agreed. 
Jun 26 12:48:56 <Southern_Gentlem>	warren /msg chanser access #fedora list
Jun 26 12:49:07 <nirik>	Anvil: it's hard to have a complete script for any possible fedora issue. 
Jun 26 12:49:09 <Southern_Gentlem>	iWolf,  we do
Jun 26 12:49:37 <iWolf>	Southern_Gentlem: I was mainly commenting on nikrik's guidelines.
Jun 26 12:49:56 *	nirik edits
Jun 26 12:49:57 <iWolf>	I think a large part of this is a policy, then make sure all ops know and enforce the policy in 
                        a similar fashion.
Jun 26 12:49:59 <Anvil>	nirik : we can try. lspci/lsub/lsmod/cat fedora-release/selinux status/xorg.conf/Xorg.0.log..
Jun 26 12:50:18 <Anvil>	nirik : that very common things we request.
Jun 26 12:50:24 <Anvil>	s/that/& are/
Jun 26 12:50:28 <Anvil>	those are.
Jun 26 12:50:29 <roguedaemon>	Anvil:  i have often thought about an exanded /topic page like #openbsd has 
                                http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/topic.html
Jun 26 12:50:32 <Anvil>	*tired*
Jun 26 12:50:32 <nirik>	Anvil: yeah, we could work up a script, and possibly package it. ;) 
Jun 26 12:50:38 <Southern_Gentlem>	i really dont see a need for ops to email
Jun 26 12:50:41 <roguedaemon>	its like a channel HOWTO
Jun 26 12:50:47 <warren>	There are a number of tools and guidelines that can exist, but I see this as a losing battle since it 
                                takes someone to enforce (or nag) constantly.
Jun 26 12:51:09 <ianweller>	nirik: i think if you're going to have shifts, you should definitely make this a contributor thing
Jun 26 12:51:13 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: email? oh, on bans? yeah, I just want some way for other ops to know when something 
                        happened so the person doesn't come bug them about it... 
Jun 26 12:51:15 <Anvil>	nirik : yeah. Doesnt firstboot ask for hardware setup to be posted somewhere ? we could require that "post"
Jun 26 12:51:19 <warren>	And you have a constant stream of thankless people wanting instant gratification when most of them 
                                could find their answer with a simple search.
Jun 26 12:51:19 <Anvil>	require or use.
Jun 26 12:51:24 *	ianweller just finished reading the guidelines draft
Jun 26 12:51:41 <nirik>	Anvil: yeah, smolt. We should use smolt ids a lot more. 
Jun 26 12:51:56 <iWolf>	warren: that's just people in general though.  You will have that on irc, on mailing lists, in the 
                        forums and at your local LUG.
Jun 26 12:51:57 <ivazquez>	Yes, that would be a good idea...
Jun 26 12:51:58 <nirik>	ianweller: sure. 
Jun 26 12:52:00 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik,  asalways when they bug me about anvils bans i tell them to talk to him
Jun 26 12:52:01 <Anvil>	warren : 80-90% questions are RTFM/fedorasolved/FAQ items.
Jun 26 12:52:06 <warren>	nod
Jun 26 12:52:17 <ianweller>	i remember fajita in #apache.
Jun 26 12:52:19 <--	mether_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
Jun 26 12:52:19 <iWolf>	no matter what we do, there will still be people visiting the channel looking for a quick answer without a 
                        smart question.
Jun 26 12:52:25 <ianweller>	it helped save the keyboards of those who often helped :P
Jun 26 12:52:26 <Anvil>	nirik : we shoulkd interface smolt with pidgin or telepathy
Jun 26 12:52:28 <iWolf>	but, that's part of the irc support gig in my mind.
Jun 26 12:52:33 <iWolf>	unfortunately.
Jun 26 12:52:41 <nirik>	Anvil / warren: sure, but we should be polite and kind about pointing them there... not the rudeness they 
                        sometimes get. 
Jun 26 12:52:57 <nirik>	iWolf: agreed totally, but we need to be nice about it. 
Jun 26 12:53:07 <--	sadmac2 (n=cdahlin@nat/redhat-us/x-a3c1338a5edf82f6) has left #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 12:53:09 <Anvil>	nirik : the more you stay, the less patience you have.
Jun 26 12:53:13 <iWolf>	nirik: yep, I agree.  that's where ops need patience.
Jun 26 12:53:16 <roguedaemon>	handling that cleanly and professionally is the tough part
Jun 26 12:53:17 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: ok, didn't remember if it listed that in the ban list. 
Jun 26 12:53:27 <iWolf>	Anvil: then we might need more ops to allow frustrated ops a break.
Jun 26 12:53:28 <Anvil>	nirik : i tend not to speak *at all* anymore for that reason.
Jun 26 12:53:40 *	rdieter remembers Patrick Swaze in RoadHouse, about bouncers... "do *foo* ... , but be nice"
Jun 26 12:53:49 <Anvil>	iWolf : i dont want to mix chanops and helpers
Jun 26 12:53:54 <nirik>	FYI, in the last year and a half, there have been 128 bans in #fedora
Jun 26 12:54:36 <ivazquez>	It's had its fair share of spammers though.
Jun 26 12:54:52 <Anvil>	nirik : i dont believe it's the highscore.
Jun 26 12:54:59 *	warren wonders how much of a mess fedora-list is today.  Hasn't looked there in a year.
Jun 26 12:55:25 <nirik>	so, anything else we should have in a Code of Conduct/ channel rules? 
Jun 26 12:55:27 <roguedaemon>	again i want to point out that i see #fedora doing really well also very often, i dont think its too 
                                far away
Jun 26 12:55:29 <Anvil>	warren : unsubscribed long time ago >)
Jun 26 12:55:30 <roguedaemon>	but its still irc
Jun 26 12:56:04 <ivazquez>	I still say we need something with more structure.
Jun 26 12:56:09 <roguedaemon>	i'm sure we're addressing issues that have been discussed a million times over the past 20 years or so
Jun 26 12:56:25 <ianweller>	i think structure can detract some people from getting help, and therefore using fedora altogether
Jun 26 12:56:30 <Anvil>	ivazquez : yes. Some kind of work flow for both users and helpers.
Jun 26 12:56:33 <pembo13>	ivazquez: i think some structured across several mediums would be nice
Jun 26 12:56:42 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: it would be nice if we could incorporated some of these things into the channel rules 
                                http://fedorasolved.org/Members/scott_glaser/irc-etiquette-for-fedora
Jun 26 12:56:58 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: ok, can look. 
Jun 26 12:57:07 <ivazquez>	ianweller: But lack of structure can do the same.
Jun 26 12:57:25 <ianweller>	ivazquez: agreed
Jun 26 12:57:26 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  no put downs or personal attacks? heheh
Jun 26 12:58:02 <nirik>	we need a rules/guidelines doc, but we also need a shorter faq that gets sent to people on /join... that 
                        should have asking smart questions and a quick recap of the guidelines that apply to users... 
Jun 26 12:58:09 <pembo13>	ivazquez: amybe some pros/cons, use cases, etc might be necessary to convince others
Jun 26 12:58:12 <nirik>	(not that some people will read them at all)
Jun 26 12:58:26 <roguedaemon>	more rules just results in more broken rules, and more bans. positive atmosphere can keep even some trolls 
                                quiet
Jun 26 12:58:27 <ivazquez>	We need a truobleshooting/FAQ wizard.
Jun 26 12:58:46 <ianweller>	ivazquez: ooh
Jun 26 12:58:46 <nirik>	ivazquez: a group of helpers/support people could draft/maintain such a doc. 
Jun 26 12:58:47 <Anvil>	ivazquez : +1
Jun 26 12:59:05 <ianweller>	troubleshoot.fedoraproject.org?
Jun 26 12:59:16 <roguedaemon>	me again points @ http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/topic.html
Jun 26 12:59:17 <nirik>	yeah, thats a pretty good idea... 
Jun 26 12:59:19 <ivazquez>	And then if they don't find the answer they need, *then* they get thrown into some sort of chat or 
                                chat queue.
Jun 26 12:59:40 <nirik>	well, even on irc if there was an app and they were able to reach the net, we could point them there as a 
                        first step
Jun 26 12:59:41 <Anvil>	more than a doc. We need a search engine.
Jun 26 12:59:44 <roguedaemon>	maintenance is an issue
Jun 26 12:59:56 <jmtaylor>	honestly, I would like to see us use some sort of knowledgebase, I know fedoraunity has a lot of 
                                helpful stuff.. but perhaps reorganizing?
Jun 26 13:00:00 <Anvil>	maybe we could re-use logs
Jun 26 13:00:14 <nirik>	the ubuntu channel has a faq bot... which allows adding "hot topics", so it sends msg to those with the 
                        keywords. 
Jun 26 13:00:23 <ivazquez>	I certainly have more than enough logs to pick through for issues :P
Jun 26 13:00:37 <Sonar_Guy>	Anvil: +1 as it would point to the trends that are currently plaguing the users
Jun 26 13:00:40 <Anvil>	nirik : about bots. I've always said "no" on #fedora, more several reasons
Jun 26 13:00:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik, you list is good but paste lines to 4  10 is too many
Jun 26 13:01:01 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: can you edit it? or you want me to change it... I don't care the number. 
Jun 26 13:01:20 <Southern_Gentlem>	go ahead i am in the middle of 15 things here
Jun 26 13:01:29 <Anvil>	nirik : first reason : it was not an "official" bot. second reason : it's often bringing more noise
Jun 26 13:01:43 <nirik>	Anvil: yeah, I can understand. If we can get a bot that ignores most people, and only responds to some 
                        with a msg to the users would that work?
Jun 26 13:01:47 <Anvil>	nirik : sometimes people join, post a !footopic and leave
Jun 26 13:02:03 <Anvil>	nirik : they could have searched footopic on fedorasolved, but no they had to come here.
Jun 26 13:02:03 <nirik>	yeah, sure. It would need some hardening... 
Jun 26 13:02:15 <nirik>	I think thats another down the road issue... 
Jun 26 13:02:54 <Anvil>	there's also  something
Jun 26 13:02:57 <nirik>	so, for short term, can we agree on: Re-vamp the ops list to remove inactive people + add more active 
                        people? Ask for offtopic to go to #fedora-social? 
Jun 26 13:02:58 <Anvil>	(not about bot)
Jun 26 13:03:18 <pembo13>	nirik: seems like a good baseline
Jun 26 13:03:19 <nirik>	any other short term goals we can try and do?
Jun 26 13:03:20 <Anvil>	we have always and always the same questions
Jun 26 13:03:41 <ivazquez>	That's why we need a druid before the chat.
Jun 26 13:03:43 <Anvil>	someone should count questions, and report them to improve the fedora "userfriendlyness"
Jun 26 13:04:09 <nirik>	Anvil: yeah. Short term, can we make a "IRC hot topics" wiki page? and point people at that? 
Jun 26 13:04:10 <iWolf>	nirik: maybe add refine policy, so the ops are all on the same page?
Jun 26 13:04:11 <Anvil>	I think the top most thing is "bash: foo: command not found"
Jun 26 13:04:30 <Anvil>	because someone force sbin to be left out of the default PATH
Jun 26 13:04:31 <nirik>	Anvil: yeah, zcat's auto gets many of those. 
Jun 26 13:04:40 <Sonar_Guy>	iWolf: I totally agree
Jun 26 13:04:40 *	nirik hopes that gets fixed in f10
Jun 26 13:04:48 <Anvil>	maybe we should consider these questions
Jun 26 13:05:04 <nirik>	iWolf: yeah, I would really like a mailing list, or at least email for all ops... 
Jun 26 13:05:05 <--	mether has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 26 13:05:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	iwolf i think nirik page works well
Jun 26 13:05:30 <Anvil>	ivazquez : we need the druid, definitely.
Jun 26 13:05:39 <iWolf>	Southern_Gentlem: Oh, I agree - I think is page is well - just make sure all ops are aware of it.
Jun 26 13:06:16 <nirik>	perhaps we need a way to contact all ops first, before we make any changes?
Jun 26 13:07:22 <Anvil>	and drop chanops we cant contact from the access list.
Jun 26 13:07:33 <nirik>	does that have email in it too? I didn't think so. 
Jun 26 13:07:35 *	nirik looks
Jun 26 13:07:51 >chanserv<	list #fedora access
Jun 26 13:07:51 -ChanServ-	You are not authorized to perform this operation.
Jun 26 13:07:53 <Anvil>	nirik : we can drop notes through freenode iirc
Jun 26 13:08:01 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik, any ops but anvil, Sonar_Guy ivazquez ,mutk, jef are the only ops that have 
                                        been in the channel in months
Jun 26 13:08:20 >chanserv<	access #fedora list
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	Entry Nickname/Host          Flags
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	----- ---------------------- -----
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	1     dgilmore               +votriRA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	2     che                    +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	3     micro_sonar_guy        +votriRA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	4     Southern_Gentlem       +votriRA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	5     foolish                +votriRA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	6     ivazquez               +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	7     mutk                   +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	8     Pix                    +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	9     |Jef|                  +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	10    ender                  +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	11    spot                   +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	12    Warren                 +votsriRfAF [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	13    Sopwith                +votriRA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	14    Anvilou                +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	15    Avatraxiom             +votriRA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	16    rjune                  +votriRA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	17    Corwyn                 +votriRA [modified ? ago]
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	----- ---------------------- -----
Jun 26 13:08:21 -ChanServ-	End of #fedora FLAGS listing.
Jun 26 13:08:23 <Southern_Gentlem>	and i
Jun 26 13:08:47 <nirik>	ok, 17 folks on the list now... 
Jun 26 13:08:52 <Southern_Gentlem>	and spot
Jun 26 13:09:07 <nirik>	che has been around hasn't he? perhaps only in devel
Jun 26 13:09:19 <nirik>	foolish has been in devel
Jun 26 13:09:24 <Sonar_Guy>	he is in #fedora every now and then.
Jun 26 13:09:25 <Southern_Gentlem>	foolish has been around
Jun 26 13:09:26 <roguedaemon>	ive seen che around
Jun 26 13:09:46 <Southern_Gentlem>	i have seen che but i have not seen where he used his op powers
Jun 26 13:09:50 <Anvil>	che's around.. .not so often though
Jun 26 13:10:11 <ivazquez>	The probably don't come around often because it's so draining to be there.
Jun 26 13:10:29 <Anvil>	maybe.
Jun 26 13:10:30 <Southern_Gentlem>	everyone /msg chanserv access #fedora list
Jun 26 13:10:39 <Sonar_Guy>	ivazquez: I agree, one of the reasons I took a break for a while
Jun 26 13:10:54 <ivazquez>	The channel is rife with opportunities to make you want to abuse your op powers.
Jun 26 13:11:03 <nirik>	yeah, I am in there all the time, but then I can't always be paying attention. Thats why I think 
                        shifts are good. 
Jun 26 13:11:12 <Anvil>	nickserv info Avatraxiom -> last seen 1y
Jun 26 13:11:19 <Anvil>	i dont know corwyn
Jun 26 13:11:21 <roguedaemon>	thats the real battle, is dealing with the truly lazy and stubborn customers without getting 
                                jaded and losing the professional attitude
Jun 26 13:11:28 <Anvil>	sopwith has left, hasnt he ?
Jun 26 13:11:30 <Sonar_Guy>	corwyn is no longer involved
Jun 26 13:11:41 <nirik>	Anvil: he's still around, but rarely. 
Jun 26 13:11:48 -->	Tuju (n=tuju@50.157.190.90.sta.estpak.ee) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 13:11:51 <Southern_Gentlem>	makes the motion Avatraxiom rjune corwyn be removed
Jun 26 13:12:09 <Anvil>	ender still alive ?
Jun 26 13:12:20 <nirik>	also ender is really f13's old nick... I don't think he uses it anymore
Jun 26 13:12:33 <Anvil>	Pix is on freenode but doesnt involve himself in #fedora. He's quite busy
Jun 26 13:12:59 <Anvil>	nirik : well he could link the old nick to the new one.
Jun 26 13:13:10 <ivazquez>	They already are grouped.
Jun 26 13:13:15 <Anvil>	nevermind me
Jun 26 13:13:16 <nirik>	I don't know if he has any time/interest in #fedora... f13 ? 
Jun 26 13:13:21 <--	smooge (n=smooge@canopus.unm.edu) has left #fedora-meeting ("-ENOTIME")
Jun 26 13:13:21 <ivazquez>	ender is the primary for his account.
Jun 26 13:13:52 <roguedaemon>	he's here :)
Jun 26 13:14:03 <Anvil>	hm, avatraxiom is probably using an alt nickname too. He's been seen on freenode
Jun 26 13:14:13 <Anvil>	f13 : hi >)
Jun 26 13:14:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	Anvil but has he done anything for the channel
Jun 26 13:14:47 <nirik>	ok, so do we want to make changes to ops list now? or ping everyone? 
Jun 26 13:14:47 <roguedaemon>	he was here for the FESCo meeting
Jun 26 13:15:16 <iWolf>	nirik: its easy to ask for forgiveness.  and it sounds like Southern_Gentlem and Anvil know who 
                        have been around.
Jun 26 13:15:18 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: ping everybody first to see if they are still interested
Jun 26 13:15:31 <iWolf>	Sonar_Guy: that's a good idea too!
Jun 26 13:15:45 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: ok, do you guys have email for everyone? or a way I can find it out?
Jun 26 13:15:46 <Anvil>	Southern_Gentlem : well, he has maintained fedorafaq for a while. He's been quite active.
Jun 26 13:15:56 <Anvil>	Southern_Gentlem : dunno his current status
Jun 26 13:16:08 <Sonar_Guy>	I have some of them but not all of them.
Jun 26 13:16:13 -->	SmootherFrOgZ (n=Smoother@143.125.206-77.rev.gaoland.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 13:16:22 <ivazquez>	He's sometimes on Freenode.
Jun 26 13:16:22 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: it would be easier to memo them on irc
Jun 26 13:16:34 <ivazquez>	Usually just to maintain buggbot.
Jun 26 13:16:40 <ianweller>	from what i can tell memos sometimes get ignored
Jun 26 13:16:45 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: ok, I could do that too. (Would have to look at how to do that, but I can)
Jun 26 13:17:31 <ivazquez>	I think he's been far too busy with BZ to come around much.
Jun 26 13:17:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	iWolf,  when me and Sonar_Guy got ops anvil had been the only active op for 6 months
Jun 26 13:18:02 <Southern_Gentlem>	ivazquez,  but you have been around and have used your op powers
Jun 26 13:18:03 -->	che (n=rkastl@redhat/che) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 13:18:07 <che>	hello
Jun 26 13:18:12 <Anvil>	che :]
Jun 26 13:18:15 <Southern_Gentlem>	in the perfect world we should never have to use them
Jun 26 13:18:19 *	nirik nods
Jun 26 13:18:27 <Anvil>	Southern_Gentlem : on that topic..
Jun 26 13:18:36 <Anvil>	we had greater peace with +rR modes
Jun 26 13:18:43 <Anvil>	but that's my opinion.
Jun 26 13:18:44 <Sonar_Guy>	Anvil: +1
Jun 26 13:18:50 <Southern_Gentlem>	Anvil +1
Jun 26 13:18:55 <nirik>	Anvil: we can ask for it back, but that was a order from the board. 
Jun 26 13:19:05 <Anvil>	nirik : yes, spot told me
Jun 26 13:19:19 <roguedaemon>	what is that
Jun 26 13:19:19 <Sonar_Guy>	It stopped what happened on saturday night or sunday morning.
Jun 26 13:19:34 <Anvil>	nirik : most of problems i encounter since -rR are due to unregistered users.
Jun 26 13:19:35 *	roguedaemon googles...
Jun 26 13:19:51 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik i think a one month grace period may have to be asked to get control of the 
                                        channel back
Jun 26 13:19:57 <nirik>	anyhow, to get back on topic: shall I send a memo to all the current ops list asking if they still 
                        want to be involved, and if we don't hear from them or they say they don't in a week, we revamp the list?
Jun 26 13:20:00 <Anvil>	roguedaemon : r prevents unregistered people to talk, R prevent them to join
Jun 26 13:20:06 <roguedaemon>	ahh, i did notice that after i came back
Jun 26 13:20:07 <nirik>	(yeah, or a month is fine, whatever)
Jun 26 13:20:17 <Anvil>	nirik : agreed.
Jun 26 13:20:27 <nirik>	ok, I can do that. 
Jun 26 13:20:27 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: +1, week
Jun 26 13:20:44 <ivazquez>	Oooh. Idea. If we had a wait time on the chat then we could make it a little too expensive to 
                                just come in and ask "silly" questions.
Jun 26 13:20:50 <ivazquez>	I really need to write all this down...
Jun 26 13:20:59 <nirik>	week might be better in that we can always re-add them if they step up and say they want to be onvolved. 
Jun 26 13:21:00 <Sonar_Guy>	lol
Jun 26 13:21:04 <nirik>	involved. sheesh
Jun 26 13:21:08 *	roguedaemon is pro +rR
Jun 26 13:21:26 <--	thm has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Jun 26 13:21:33 <rdieter>	worth telling the Board that the decision to drop +rR may have been unwise ?
Jun 26 13:22:02 <Anvil>	nirik : we should have clearly writen policy for moderation - which should be _different_ than 
                        helper policy
Jun 26 13:22:03 <ianweller>	i'm anti-+rR, and if there are problems, having ops on a shift-by-shift basis can help.
Jun 26 13:22:04 <nirik>	ok, so thats removals? would you guys be interested in adding anyone? rdieter? you said you could help? 
                        I would  also be happy to. Any others we know off hand?
Jun 26 13:22:05 <che>	Anvil, routing them to another channel is less confusing than muting them.
Jun 26 13:22:14 <Sonar_Guy>	rdieter: I think it is, we had bots bouncing in and out saturday night or sunday morning while 
                                ivazquez and I were in fedora
Jun 26 13:22:19 <Anvil>	che : too, yes.
Jun 26 13:22:23 <nirik>	Anvil: agreed. I can split that out. 
Jun 26 13:22:24 <rdieter>	nirik: count me in
Jun 26 13:22:36 <roguedaemon>	yes, the muting part was very confusing to new helpless people...
Jun 26 13:22:38 <rdieter>	Sonar_Guy: ok, I'll go poke some folks
Jun 26 13:22:39 <--	rahul_b has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 26 13:22:51 <Southern_Gentlem>	ianweller,  we need the ability to set those when needed
Jun 26 13:22:53 <--	mccann_ has quit ("See ya")
Jun 26 13:22:54 <Anvil>	che : though people might tend to create another community on the routed channel.
Jun 26 13:23:02 <ianweller>	Southern_Gentlem: that would work.
Jun 26 13:23:08 <Anvil>	che : which wouldnt be that good.
Jun 26 13:23:15 <ivazquez>	Set the routed channel +m.
Jun 26 13:23:23 <Southern_Gentlem>	ianweller, right now according to the boards decree we cant
Jun 26 13:23:31 <ianweller>	however i realize that +rR has caused people to join #fedora-social or #fedora-meeting or whatever 
                                with end user questions
Jun 26 13:23:36 <Anvil>	ivazquez : what would be difference with +r ?
Jun 26 13:23:48 <rdieter>	Southern_Gentlem: was the decree documented anywhere, or just word from spot?
Jun 26 13:23:56 <ianweller>	when's the next board meeting? maybe this should be brough up
Jun 26 13:24:00 <nirik>	rdieter: I read it in the meeting minutes. ;) 
Jun 26 13:24:04 <Southern_Gentlem>	i thought i see it in the boards minutes
Jun 26 13:24:10 <rdieter>	how long ago?
Jun 26 13:24:13 <Sonar_Guy>	ianweller: and usually somebody directs them to fedora
Jun 26 13:24:19 <ivazquez>	The difference would be that with +r you can still have registered people building a community there.
Jun 26 13:24:25 *	nirik thinks this would be more a FESCo topic, but hey... whatever
Jun 26 13:24:27 <ivazquez>	If it's +m then no one can.
Jun 26 13:24:31 <ianweller>	Sonar_Guy: right, and that's still a problem
Jun 26 13:24:44 <Anvil>	ianweller : well.. i dont want to be mean.. well maybe a little. But those people havent read the chanserv 
                        notice we're sending them
Jun 26 13:24:59 <ianweller>	if somebody comes in and asks about that, i usually whois them to see if they're registered/identified, 
                                and if not, hit 'em with the freenode FAQ link on registering
Jun 26 13:25:03 <Southern_Gentlem>	ianweller, lets get the channel back under control then we can open the +rR stuff back up
Jun 26 13:25:19 <ianweller>	Southern_Gentlem: ok +1 to that :D
Jun 26 13:25:22 <roguedaemon>	with a clear path for new users
Jun 26 13:25:55 <Anvil>	Southern_Gentlem : could yeah.
Jun 26 13:26:02 <Anvil>	could work
Jun 26 13:26:08 <Southern_Gentlem>	moves that roguedaemon, nirk be added to the access list
Jun 26 13:26:15 <Sonar_Guy>	+1
Jun 26 13:26:19 <ianweller>	+1
Jun 26 13:26:32 <roguedaemon>	O_o then i have to behave!
Jun 26 13:26:32 <Anvil>	+1
Jun 26 13:26:36 <Southern_Gentlem>	roguedaemon, has been in the channel helping greatly and i think he would be a good op
Jun 26 13:26:48 <f13>	nirik: Anvil: I don't really have any time to allot to babysitting #fedora.  I could still be called upon if 
                                      necessary though.
Jun 26 13:26:48 <Southern_Gentlem>	roguedaemon,  yep
Jun 26 13:26:48 <Anvil>	roguedaemon : you prefer to be watched over?
Jun 26 13:26:50 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1
Jun 26 13:27:07 <roguedaemon>	i really can behave... i feel the need
Jun 26 13:27:08 <Southern_Gentlem>	Anvil, he will be by all of us
Jun 26 13:27:15 <Anvil>	f13 : last resort op ? That can help yeah.
Jun 26 13:27:37 <f13>	Anvil: or if I happen to be online when no other op is online.
Jun 26 13:28:39 <nirik>	ok, two other (sorta related) items: 1) Should we form a Fedora SIG? pro: more org, would 
                        get more people involved, etc, but con: can we then talk about livna/etc? and 2) meet 
                         again in a week and try and make more progress? 
Jun 26 13:29:09 -->	ventana (n=warren@72.252.1.66) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 13:29:26 <Anvil>	nirik : 2) yes. +1. 1) is tricky as you said.
Jun 26 13:29:27 <rdieter>	nirik: SIG++, I mean folks are here and the group exists, whether we all want to 
                                officially admit it or not.
Jun 26 13:29:28 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik, let adopt you list of rules then meet again in 2 weeks
Jun 26 13:29:29 <ivazquez>	I do think we need some sort of organization here.
Jun 26 13:29:32 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: no to sig, yes to the meeting
Jun 26 13:30:08 <ivazquez>	I do think that forming a full SIG at this point is premature.
Jun 26 13:30:18 <ivazquez>	We're not even certain of what we want yet.
Jun 26 13:30:19 <Sonar_Guy>	if it means we cant talk livna/etc, no to the sig.
Jun 26 13:30:25 <ianweller>	can someone figure out about livna/etc?
Jun 26 13:30:25 <Anvil>	nirik : if we start sending people to #fedora *from* fedora, and if we talk about livna & 
                        other, is it also okay ?
Jun 26 13:30:40 <nirik>	I can ping spot about that... 
Jun 26 13:30:46 <nirik>	(the livna question)
Jun 26 13:30:57 <ianweller>	nirik: that would be lovely
Jun 26 13:31:06 <Sonar_Guy>	well we have a third party way to do that thorough fedorasolved.org
Jun 26 13:31:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	so when did it happen we couldnt send people to livna
Jun 26 13:31:10 <Anvil>	and i agree with rdieter. there's already a group. Though not so organised.
Jun 26 13:31:17 <nirik>	well, a SIG is pretty much just "hey, we exist, want to do something, join us"
Jun 26 13:31:44 <Anvil>	the group needs more members, needs goal, and needs to improve itself in more than one way.
Jun 26 13:31:53 <nirik>	it's the lowest level of org in fedora. 
Jun 26 13:32:29 <nirik>	we can revisit that anytime. 
Jun 26 13:33:08 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: never that I know of... but if we were offically representing fedora, there 
                        is the 'can't refer to livna links' etc thing... does it apply? no idea. 
Jun 26 13:33:31 <Southern_Gentlem>	dont think so
Jun 26 13:33:32 <Sonar_Guy>	well we have a third party way to do that thorough fedorasolved.org
Jun 26 13:33:34 <nirik>	it could be as simple as "Speaking for myself, and not the fedora project, you should go look
                        at http://livna.org'
Jun 26 13:33:38 <Anvil>	nirik : on that topic, i got a fedora cloak..
Jun 26 13:33:51 <Anvil>	nirik : and i own livna.org, you know
Jun 26 13:33:56 <Sonar_Guy>	lol
Jun 26 13:34:06 <nirik>	Anvil: yeah. ;) I know... and thanks BTW. ;) 
Jun 26 13:34:24 <nirik>	ok, so action items I have: 
Jun 26 13:34:31 <roguedaemon>	omg livna is anvil backwards! :)
Jun 26 13:34:32 *	Southern_Gentlem bows down and thanks Anvil 
Jun 26 13:34:39 <Southern_Gentlem>	roguedaemon, duh
Jun 26 13:34:39 <nirik>	- I will memo the ops list and ask about being involved or not. 
Jun 26 13:34:47 <roguedaemon>	;)
Jun 26 13:34:49 <stickster>	nirik: There's no such problem on IRC that I know of either.
Jun 26 13:34:54 <nirik>	- We will start pointing off topic more to #fedora-social
Jun 26 13:35:03 <nirik>	- We will add some new ops? 
Jun 26 13:35:11 <Southern_Gentlem>	yep you and roguedaemon
Jun 26 13:35:12 <nirik>	- Meet again in a week? same time? 
Jun 26 13:35:20 <Southern_Gentlem>	2 weeks
Jun 26 13:35:30 <Southern_Gentlem>	next week is july 3rd
Jun 26 13:35:36 <nirik>	- revamp rules on the wiki and try and get something we can agree on in 2 weeks. 
Jun 26 13:35:40 <Anvil>	Southern_Gentlem : please please. I've done *nothing* for fedora for 2 years. THL is (and scop 
                        was too) the man behind the livna thing.
Jun 26 13:35:40 <ivazquez>	2 weeks is bad for me.
Jun 26 13:35:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	alot of people will be going on vacations
Jun 26 13:35:42 <nirik>	(good point, 2 weeks makes sense)
Jun 26 13:36:02 <ivazquez>	Mind, 1 isn't much better.
Jun 26 13:36:11 <Southern_Gentlem>	Anvil you have done alot in #fedora the last 2 years just putting up with me
Jun 26 13:36:23 <nirik>	I suppose we could just revisit on list/irc and come up with another meeting time... 
Jun 26 13:36:28 <nirik>	perhaps even early next week?
Jun 26 13:36:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	-0
Jun 26 13:36:48 <Anvil>	Southern_Gentlem : or not. whatever.
Jun 26 13:36:54 <Anvil>	am not here to get flowers :p
Jun 26 13:37:00 <che>	Anvil, thl is now knurd :D
Jun 26 13:37:00 <--	Tuju (n=tuju@50.157.190.90.sta.estpak.ee) has left #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 13:37:08 <Anvil>	che : it's Thorsten. :p
Jun 26 13:37:24 <Anvil>	anyway, new op now ?
Jun 26 13:37:29 <Anvil>	nirik and roguedaemon ?
Jun 26 13:37:32 <Sonar_Guy>	roguedaemon: and nirik
Jun 26 13:37:33 <Sonar_Guy>	yup
Jun 26 13:37:34 <Southern_Gentlem>	i thanked him by sending M&M's back to his gf
Jun 26 13:37:37 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  how are these meetings announces other than in irc, email blast?
Jun 26 13:37:55 <nirik>	roguedaemon: thats it so far. I am open to other ideas. 
Jun 26 13:37:56 <Sonar_Guy>	fedora-devel-list
Jun 26 13:38:05 *	roguedaemon bows humbly with his new spear and magic helmet
Jun 26 13:38:20 <Southern_Gentlem>	did we adopt the rules layed out by nirik
Jun 26 13:38:43 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: I think we might need buy in from all the ops and they might need adding to... 
Jun 26 13:38:43 <che>	what i find pretty controversial is the fact that people always stay opped
Jun 26 13:38:44 <Anvil>	hm syntax has changed in new chanserv
Jun 26 13:38:51 <Anvil>	*need to read freenode doc*
Jun 26 13:39:06 <nirik>	che: I removed that from my draft. I agree that it just causes problems. 
Jun 26 13:39:06 *	roguedaemon too
Jun 26 13:39:12 <che>	reading the guidelines on the homepage of freenode there is a clear statement about perma ops
Jun 26 13:39:25 <nirik>	yeah, and it makes sense. 
Jun 26 13:39:33 <che>	yes it does.
Jun 26 13:39:41 <ivazquez>	Anvil: Just give them +votsriRfA.
Jun 26 13:39:44 <nirik>	I was just adding that in with the +v stuff for helpers... which also I think is a down the 
                        road/never thing. 
Jun 26 13:40:00 <che>	nirik, we are on a chanserv guarded network... ;)
Jun 26 13:40:11 <Anvil>	ivazquez : "dunnno what that means"
Jun 26 13:40:29 <ivazquez>	As their channel flags.
Jun 26 13:40:30 <nirik>	che: sure, but there is currently no way for a user who sees problems to summon an ops... 
                        they don't know who to ask for
Jun 26 13:40:43 <che>	nirik, they can ask in channel
Jun 26 13:40:48 <che>	nirik, what do you need an op for?
Jun 26 13:40:49 <nirik>	ubuntu has a bot that does it, and also a #ubuntu-ops channel
Jun 26 13:41:01 <che>	nirik, what are the 5 common reasons a user might need an op?
Jun 26 13:41:19 <nirik>	che: if there is one around, they would fix the issue. If not, how can a user find one? just 
                      wait, right? 
Jun 26 13:41:28 <nirik>	someone flooding channel, etc... 
Jun 26 13:41:43 <che>	nirik, if you stay opped then people will just wait until no one is opped anymore
Jun 26 13:41:53 <che>	nirik, even more obvious then if the chan isnt observed
Jun 26 13:41:55 <Anvil>	i'm often up with my @ because 1. forget to drop 2. wants to keep 5min to avoid potential 
                       "something awful" then 1.
Jun 26 13:41:57 *	nirik at least has his client beep on a messages with his nick, so he would go look... 
Jun 26 13:42:19 <che>	nirik, there are 24/7 people on the channel that know who can act.
Jun 26 13:42:23 <Anvil>	do we auto-voice chanops?
Jun 26 13:42:31 <nirik>	che: are there? 
Jun 26 13:42:41 <che>	Anvil, what for? dick meter? :D
Jun 26 13:42:55 <nirik>	in any case it's all a bunch of what if. I agree not keeping ops set is good. 
Jun 26 13:42:55 <ivazquez>	Anvil: +votsriRfA
Jun 26 13:43:17 <Anvil>	che : yeah :D
Jun 26 13:43:18 <che>	nirik, how about having a page that states who is op?
Jun 26 13:43:35 <nirik>	che: that would be good. Also, I personally would really like a way to email all ops... 
Jun 26 13:43:37 <che>	nirik, like... a wiki page about the channel?
Jun 26 13:43:44 <nirik>	sounds good to me. 
Jun 26 13:43:45 <che>	nirik, operator mailing list?
Jun 26 13:44:08 <nirik>	fine, although just an alias would probibly be fine. 
Jun 26 13:44:49 <nirik>	anyhow, anyone have anything further to try and discuss today? 
Jun 26 13:45:36 <nirik>	ok. Thanks everyone for coming. 
Jun 26 13:45:39 <roguedaemon>	nirik:  next time maybe any maintenance issues there are that could be assigned
Jun 26 13:45:54 <nirik>	hopefully we can make some progress at organizing and guidelines and make things better (tm)
Jun 26 13:45:55 <roguedaemon>	present and future
Jun 26 13:45:56 <Anvil>	ivazquez : +f ?
Jun 26 13:46:27 <nirik>	roguedaemon: yeah. I am sure we can make a wishlist of items that need doing... 
Jun 26 13:46:42 <Anvil>	nirik che : we can set contact email to that list in chanserv instead of warren's, maybe.
Jun 26 13:47:20 <roguedaemon>	and thank you all, your confidence and purpose is inspiring
Jun 26 13:47:53 <che>	Anvil, not  bad idea
Jun 26 13:47:55 *	nirik thinks it's a solveable problem... we just need to organize and get more helpers helping. 
Jun 26 13:48:02 <nirik>	Anvil: sounds good to me. 
Jun 26 13:48:21 <che>	if you are really that paranoid about spammers you could also setup an eggdrop
Jun 26 13:48:37 <che>	24/7 unattended copy/paste moron kickban ;)
Jun 26 13:48:58 <che>	no real magic involved
Jun 26 13:48:59 <nirik>	yeah, I think a bot might be doable down the road, but we need to make sure it's not causing more 
                        problems than it solves. 
Jun 26 13:49:01 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: I have wiki access if we need to start a true page
Jun 26 13:49:13 <f13>	or you could get the xkcd signal bot, it's quite vicious
Jun 26 13:49:16 <che>	nirik, agreed. someone with eggdrop experience needs to set it up ;)
Jun 26 13:49:20 <Anvil>	I'm not against an eggy as long as he's the One and Only Official Bot
Jun 26 13:49:25 <f13>	right
Jun 26 13:49:35 <f13>	one of the rules we had back in #redhat (and it worked very nicely), no bots
Jun 26 13:49:40 <nirik>	Sonar_Guy: ok, cool. I don't have my head wrapped around mediawiki syntax yet... so if you want to 
                        start making some pages that would be great
Jun 26 13:49:40 <che>	it should never spam and never act stupid
Jun 26 13:49:48 <f13>	bots tended to invite people to try and break the bot or abuse it
Jun 26 13:49:53 <che>	f13, i agree but now we have a 400 user
Jun 26 13:49:54 *	nirik nods. 
Jun 26 13:49:56 <ianweller>	so what would the bot be for?
Jun 26 13:50:14 <nirik>	it could do flood prevention (kick on multiple line pastes)
Jun 26 13:50:14 <f13>	so if we are going to allow a bot, there really should only be one, not a ton  that feed from eachother
Jun 26 13:50:15 <Anvil>	f13 : that's my personnal rule, too, but that could make chanop pain easier
Jun 26 13:50:29 <che>	f13, a guardbot doesent do anything besides guarding
Jun 26 13:50:33 <Anvil>	f13 : 100% agree. One and Only.
Jun 26 13:50:34 <nirik>	it could point people to specific help pages (in msg I hope)
Jun 26 13:50:39 <che>	f13, rule #1 never spam to chan
Jun 26 13:50:40 <f13>	given the size of the room at this point, a guardbot isn't necessarily a bad idea.
Jun 26 13:50:51 <Anvil>	doesnt chanserv have basics flood/kick features?
Jun 26 13:50:52 <che>	f13, rule #2 no interaction besides partyline
Jun 26 13:51:08 <che>	f13, partline is the "bot shell" ;)
Jun 26 13:51:09 <Sonar_Guy>	nirik: np, I will start with what is on your page, then we can go from there.
Jun 26 13:51:10 <Southern_Gentlem>	bot must not respond in channel only in pm to the user
Jun 26 13:51:13 <che>	f13, partyline even
Jun 26 13:51:26 <che>	best is if he doesent talk at all
Jun 26 13:51:34 <nirik>	it would also be nice if the bot ran on a fedora machine and could be poked/restarted/fixed 
                        by a pool of people. 
Jun 26 13:51:42 *	Anvil has set up his last eggy in.... XXth century... X_X
Jun 26 13:51:48 <che>	nirik, we need a shell for it... that is a bigger problem
Jun 26 13:51:48 <nirik>	anyhow, I think a bot might be good, but we have bigger fish to fry now. 
Jun 26 13:52:09 <che>	Anvil, maybe a few people should team up on it
Jun 26 13:52:16 <Anvil>	che : yeah, sure.
Jun 26 13:52:22 <ivazquez>	Anvil: Right. Not +f.
Jun 26 13:52:25 <Sonar_Guy>	does anybody object to me listing the current ops on the wiki page?
Jun 26 13:52:41 <che>	Anvil, writing a good eggdrop config and getting the good tcl guard scripts together is a 
                       real project... it needs planning, evaluation and testing
Jun 26 13:52:57 <roguedaemon>	 Sonar_Guy its as easy as /cd access #fedora list anyway
Jun 26 13:53:01 <roguedaemon>	 /cs
Jun 26 13:53:08 <f13>	Sonar_Guy: they should be listed, with their aliases too
Jun 26 13:53:16 <Anvil>	che : doesnt it use perl now?
Jun 26 13:53:26 <Sonar_Guy>	f13: ok, can do.
Jun 26 13:53:31 <che>	Anvil, last time i looked it still ate tcl
Jun 26 13:53:38 <ivazquez>	We could always use supybot...
Jun 26 13:53:49 *	f13 was just going to suggest that
Jun 26 13:53:50 <Anvil>	maybe we could think about what we expect from a bot, and talk about it next time
Jun 26 13:54:13 <che>	Anvil, requirement analysis yup
Jun 26 13:54:37 <che>	ivazquez, f13 i have yet to try it. eggdrop is just the defacto standard for guarding chans ;)
Jun 26 13:54:51 <Anvil>	think about what we expect -> gather expectations -> name a group to implement it -> find 
                        an host -> exec ! -> profit
Jun 26 13:55:01 -->	fugolini1 (n=francesc@host250-207-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 13:55:01 <--	pembo13 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Jun 26 13:55:15 <che>	Anvil, maybe also evaluate alternatives (look what open source bots we have) ;)
Jun 26 13:56:12 <Anvil>	che : well.. yeah, but if we want to extend the bot to new features we havent thought about yet - maybe 
                        smolt, and tons other things.. - what is left besides eggy ?
Jun 26 13:56:36 ---	dwmw2 is now known as dwmw2_gone
Jun 26 13:56:47 <ivazquez>	supybot
Jun 26 13:57:25 ---	stickster is now known as stickster_afk
Jun 26 13:57:25 ---	stickster_afk is now known as stickster
Jun 26 13:57:27 *	Sonar_Guy heads home, will catch up once I get there.
Jun 26 13:57:35 <ivazquez>	Both buggbot and zodbot are supybot.
Jun 26 13:57:40 <Anvil>	nirik : in user policy should include status of : nick changes - pasting limit - away/back msgs - 
                        writen language ..
Jun 26 13:57:49 <--	Sonar_Guy has quit ("Leaving")
Jun 26 13:58:23 -->	Evil_Sonar_Chick (n=Andrea@dpc6744130021.direcpc.com) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 13:58:28 *	Anvil doesnt know about supybots.
Jun 26 13:59:24 *	ianweller does
Jun 26 13:59:32 <nirik>	Anvil: ok. Let me split the policies into sperate pages and add some more to them... 
Jun 26 13:59:32 <Anvil>	good
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Jun 26 14:00:28 <mmcgrath>	You guys all done?
Jun 26 14:00:30 <nirik>	we do probibly want to keep the user one short... 
Jun 26 14:00:31 <Anvil>	nirik : chanop policy : who to kick - who not to kick - diplomaty - temporary bans -
Jun 26 14:00:42 <nirik>	mmcgrath: I think so. 
Jun 26 14:00:48 <Anvil>	nirik : yeah, user policy shor twith short sentences.>)
Jun 26 14:01:02 -->	wfp (n=wfp5p@viridian.itc.Virginia.EDU) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 14:01:02 <mmcgrath>	nirik: we can easily do our meeting in #fedora-meeting, just say so and we're away :)
Jun 26 14:01:18 <G>	#fedora-admin he means :)
Jun 26 14:01:28 <mmcgrath>	err yes, #fedora-admin
Jun 26 14:01:28 <nirik>	mmcgrath: no worries, I think we are done for now, the channel is yours. 
Jun 26 14:01:37 <mmcgrath>	nirik: you sure?
Jun 26 14:01:40 <Anvil>	nirik : is someone logging ?
Jun 26 14:01:43 -->	pembo13 (n=chatzill@CPE-24-163-204-124.kc.res.rr.com) has joined #fedora-meeting
Jun 26 14:01:44 <nirik>	Anvil: I was... 
Jun 26 14:01:51 <G>	Anvil: I'll have logs too
Jun 26 14:01:51 <Anvil>	nirik : ack. I'm too.
Jun 26 14:02:00 <roguedaemon>	i'm always logging
Jun 26 14:02:01 <nirik>	perhaps we should make a #fedora-ops channel and brainstorm more there?
Jun 26 14:02:03 <ianweller>	#fedora-meeting has 100% usage since the start of the FESCo meeting. heh.
Jun 26 14:02:12 *	Anvil has #fedora archive since 2002 old days.
Jun 26 14:02:25 <SmootherFrOgZ>	 Anvil nice :)
Jun 26 14:02:36 <mmcgrath>	nirik: all set?
Jun 26 14:02:40 <che>	nirik, not a bad idea
Jun 26 14:03:26 <Anvil>	nirik : +1 for #fedora-ops. Will also be a place to discuss #fedora "run" actions.
Jun 26 14:03:50 *	mmcgrath holds meeting in #fedora-admin :)
Jun 26 14:03:52 mmcgrath marek mbonnet_ McGiwer mcleanj MicroBob mikem23 mxcarron 
Jun 26 14:03:56 <nirik>	mmcgrath: we are done, all yours
Jun 26 14:03:58 <roguedaemon>	thanks again guys
Jun 26 14:04:02 <mmcgrath>	ah, k
Jun 26 14:04:06 <Anvil>	thanks