Meeting:IRC Support Channel log 20080807

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Contents

2008 July 31 IRC Support Meeting

Members Present

NAME IRC Nick
Kevin Fenzi nirik
Ben Williams Southern_Gentlem
Scott Glaser Sonar_Guy
Steve Barber roguedaemon
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams ivazquez
Scott Williams vwbusguy
Jason Farrell zcat
Thomas Janssen thomasj
Jef Spaleta spoleeba
Bob Jensen BobJensen
Warren Togami warren
Rex Dieter rdieter
Jeroen van Meeuwen kanarip
nubs
Seth Vidal skvidal

Summary

Problem Scope

IRC support needs to be improved. There is a shortage of good helpers, and operators to maintain order in the #fedora channel. The channel has many "non helpfull" helpers in it. Support is sometimes inconsistent or not present. We should be able to organize support efforts, attract more helpers and assist more users.

Items Discussed

  • Should and IRC Support SIG be formed?
    • The general consensus was that a SIG would be beneficial to the group.
    • Remove the +v stuff from helpers for now until we decide to use it.
  • Code of Conduct
    • Needs to be updated and reviewed.
  • Helpers
    • Currently not enough people to support running in shifts.
    • How can we get more people involved in helping so that we can setup shifts?
    • Tableed the topic of scheduling until we have a way to do it and decide we want to for sure.
    • Helpers would also require access to #fedora-ops to settle disputes and allow for the Channel Operators to monitor the disputes and assist in resolution.
  • Progress?
    • Some days are better than others.
    • Continue directing off-topic discussions to #fedora-social.
    • Directing people to #fedora-social tends to lead to those people ranting in that channel.
  • Free discussion
    • See meeting logs for details

Action Items

  • Have Red Hat lawyers look into the legalities of referring to livna. Assigned: Tom Callaway (DONE)
    • Legals response was to post the following disclaimer in the channel: "Any advice you read here is provided by individual community members. You should use it at your OWN RISK. This advice is owned by each individual, and does NOT represent the views of Freenode, Fedora or Red Hat" This was done by modifying the chanserv message to display that disclaimer to every person who enters the channel.
  • Form SIG. Assigned:
  • Invite the Fedora Documentation personnel to assist in reviewing our pages. Assigned: Scott Glaser
  • Modify/Define the code of conduct for Participants/Helpers/Ops. Assigned: All Operators
  • Define the requirements for a #fedora Bot. Assigned:

Misc

  • The next IRC Support Team meeting will take place in #fedora-meeting beginning 15:30 UTC on 7 August 2008.
  • Figure out how to get more helpers/schedule shifts.

Long term ideas

  • A 'support wizard' type app. Users could be directed to it to gather information and also point them to solutions for common problems (This could be shared with other support types).
  • Guidelines and orginization around all support types (mailing lists, talk, forums).
  • A channel bot for various needs.

Log

Aug 07 11:30:14 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support Meeting - Init process
Aug 07 11:30:41 -->	pingou (n=pingou@fedora/pingou) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:31:07 -->	kc8hfi (n=kc8hfi@75.108.110.238) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:31:07 -->	centosian (n=centosia@66-234-32-19.nyc.cable.nyct.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:31:07 *	ianwelle1_afk lurks
Aug 07 11:31:08 ---	ianwelle1_afk is now known as ianweller
Aug 07 11:31:16 *	centosian lurks
Aug 07 11:31:25 -->	lontra_ (n=lontra@c-76-17-197-161.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:31:28 <vwbusguy>	present
Aug 07 11:31:30 -->	chacha_chaudhry (n=rpmbuild@gnu-india/supporter/rakeshpandit) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:31:41 <ivazquez>	Pong.
Aug 07 11:31:49 -->	u0m3 (n=u0m3@86.121.25.225) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:32:20 -->	Khaytsus (n=Khaytsus@theblackmoor.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:32:23 *	nirik waits a bit more for folks to wander in. 
Aug 07 11:32:29 *	thomasj is here
Aug 07 11:32:44 -->	fchiulli (i=824c4012@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f301c807820557dc) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:33:24 <zcat>	Yarrr
Aug 07 11:34:12 <kc8hfi>	I see someone else is a pirate also
Aug 07 11:34:15 -->	NthDegree (n=nth@unaffiliated/forcerain) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:34:36 <nirik>	well, lets start out slowly...
Aug 07 11:34:44 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support Meeting - New Ops
Aug 07 11:34:54 *	spot is lurking about
Aug 07 11:34:59 <nirik>	I got swamped and didn't manage to get a hold of anyone left on the list last week. ;(
Aug 07 11:35:14 <nirik>	I will try and do so this coming week.
Aug 07 11:35:23 *	vwbusguy missed out last week.  Peers over log.
Aug 07 11:35:43 -->	tmox (n=tmox@32.84-48-37.nextgentel.com) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:36:08 -->	anna1 (n=ania@babilon.nat.student.pw.edu.pl) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:36:08 -->	CB6 (n=CB6@modemcable031.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:36:42 -->	cmpahar (n=cmpahar@athedsl-233862.home.otenet.gr) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:36:48 <nirik>	FYI, last meeting log is at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Support_Channel_Meetings/Meeting-2008-July-31
Aug 07 11:36:49 <zodbot>	<http://tinyurl.com/5lahkt> (at fedoraproject.org)
Aug 07 11:37:06 <vwbusguy>	meeting notes say I was there, but I was in a meeting at work.
Aug 07 11:37:35 -->	mock (n=mock@user-24-96-105-148.knology.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:37:43 <nirik>	the notes need updating. ;(
Aug 07 11:38:22 <nirik>	anyone have anything on new ops? I need to contact some folks who were nominated and make sure they are willing to serve...
Aug 07 11:38:54 <vwbusguy>	I was contacted by sgallagh and Sonar_Guy after the meeting about being nominated last week.
Aug 07 11:39:38 *	nirik looks back... yeah, thats right, you were nominated. Willing to serve? 
Aug 07 11:39:41 <vwbusguy>	It looks like I will be able to commit the time for it.
Aug 07 11:39:45 <--	fchiulli (i=824c4012@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f301c807820557dc) has left #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:39:53 <vwbusguy>	yeah
Aug 07 11:40:08 *	CB6 needs to get his FAS straightened out
Aug 07 11:40:30 <CB6>	sorry if my profile is a tad ambiguous at this point give me a few days
Aug 07 11:40:30 <nirik>	cool. :) I don't know if we have a quorum of ops here to vote you in... but +1 from me.
Aug 07 11:40:41 <ivazquez>	+1
Aug 07 11:40:56 <NthDegree>	I'm guessing this is chanops for #fedora
Aug 07 11:41:01 <nirik>	NthDegree: yes.
Aug 07 11:41:17 <spot>	hmm, no offense, but i don't know you. Can't in good conscience vote here.
Aug 07 11:41:25 <NthDegree>	is there a list of nominees anywhere?
Aug 07 11:41:39 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, the log from last week
Aug 07 11:41:46 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Support_Channel_Meetings/Meeting-2008-July-31
Aug 07 11:41:46 <zodbot>	<http://tinyurl.com/5lahkt> (at fedoraproject.org)
Aug 07 11:41:54 <nirik>	NthDegree: in the last meeting notes. I think the only outstanding ones are vwbusguy and Edgan
Aug 07 11:42:19 <NthDegree>	ah I was about to say +1 to Khaytsus
Aug 07 11:42:38 <--	anna1 (n=ania@babilon.nat.student.pw.edu.pl) has left #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:43:05 <nirik>	vwbusguy: looks like we don't have many folks here. Would you be willing to wait until next week? and/or we could try and collect votes from ops who aren't here over the next week?
Aug 07 11:43:23 <vwbusguy>	nirik, sure.
Aug 07 11:43:39 <nirik>	ok, lets move on then...
Aug 07 11:43:41 <vwbusguy>	nirik, ha, you know eher to find me
Aug 07 11:43:45 <vwbusguy>	*where
Aug 07 11:43:52 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support Meeting - bot
Aug 07 11:43:59 <nirik>	zcat: any progress on bot testing?
Aug 07 11:45:01 <Khaytsus>	The bot will be able to dance, yes?
Aug 07 11:45:09 <--	cmpahar has quit ("Leaving")
Aug 07 11:45:27 <zcat>	nirik, not a whole lot. but creating new plugins shouldn't be that hard.
Aug 07 11:45:50 -->	Southern_Gentlem (n=notfred@unaffiliated/southerngentlem/x-2894754) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:45:53 <nirik>	Khaytsus: only the twist... ;)
Aug 07 11:46:00 <Southern_Gentlem>	sorry got busy
Aug 07 11:46:01 <CB6>	plugins to a fedora solved db would be good
Aug 07 11:46:11 <CB6>	a sort of links reference...
Aug 07 11:46:15 <nirik>	zcat: ok. Just want to make sure it's setup right before we allow it in.
Aug 07 11:46:33 <zcat>	the two factoid plugins that come with supybot... aren't that great
Aug 07 11:46:35 <CB6>	key words such as broadcom and wifi in the same sentence should cue up zcat
Aug 07 11:46:39 <nirik>	CB6: yeah. and the fedora wiki if possible
Aug 07 11:46:52 <ivazquez>	That's certainly doable, it's just a matter of interfacing them.
Aug 07 11:47:01 <CB6>	indeed... we want to get categories possibly in websites if I understood correctly
Aug 07 11:47:55 ---	stickster is now known as stickster_afk
Aug 07 11:48:01 ---	stickster_afk is now known as stickster
Aug 07 11:48:15 <nirik>	in any case, does anyone have any other bot requirements? or shall we move on?
Aug 07 11:48:17 <CB6>	there's so much EOL stuff out there that it would be nice to get stuff pointed to the current by even just categorizing things
Aug 07 11:48:41 -->	daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:48:42 <vwbusguy>	nirik, throttle?
Aug 07 11:48:42 <nirik>	EOL stuff? you mean pointing to < f7 versions?
Aug 07 11:48:46 <vwbusguy>	nirik, to avoid abuse
Aug 07 11:48:48 <NthDegree>	does the bot have DoS protection?
Aug 07 11:48:54 <NthDegree>	and auto-ignore for abusers?
Aug 07 11:49:07 <CB6>	ya direct questioning for the bot... you know how some chans have a bot that issues rar files... well how about a room for directly asking the bot questions?
Aug 07 11:49:07 <NthDegree>	e.g. if someone floods and there are no ops around
Aug 07 11:49:27 <NthDegree>	or if someone goes and floods say !wifi or some such thing
Aug 07 11:49:28 <zcat>	supybot has a basic command throttle. defaults to 12 commands per 60 seconds before a 5 minute ban. but, normal users won't be using the regular bot commands, only admins&helpers would
Aug 07 11:49:29 <nirik>	yeah, it needs to be able to not flood the channel, or be used to flood other people.
Aug 07 11:49:55 <zcat>	i was looking to have ".cmd foo" remain as a default bot command, but "!foo" be a separate global trigger
Aug 07 11:50:05 <ivazquez>	The bot can always be PMed, so there doesn't need to be a dedicated channel for it.
Aug 07 11:50:13 <CB6>	nirik correct a lot of missinformation on the web and putting in old commands etc might not be the most appropriate way to do things. There's so many much easier alternatives and by pointing people into updated directories by categorizing things this eliminates a ton of issues
Aug 07 11:50:45 <nirik>	CB6: well, things that are outdated need to be updated... ;)
Aug 07 11:51:04 <nirik>	ivazquez: we can also have it spew to fedora-ops if it needs to be monitored or something.
Aug 07 11:51:10 <CB6>	easier said then done :P
Aug 07 11:51:15 <--	u0m3 has quit ("Leaving")
Aug 07 11:51:23 <CB6>	categories would be a start and then revamping archives
Aug 07 11:51:24 <nirik>	sure, it's a never ending battle.
Aug 07 11:51:43 <Southern_Gentlem>	CB6,  you see that is one thing aobut Fedora Unity sites we do listen to peer reviews
Aug 07 11:51:53 <nirik>	CB6: what scope are you talking about here? fedorasolved? or the entire internet? or ?
Aug 07 11:52:17 <CB6>	any of the fedora direct websites
Aug 07 11:52:19 <CB6>	solved etc
Aug 07 11:52:34 <--	sdziallas has quit ("Ex-Chat")
Aug 07 11:53:00 <CB6>	we can't expect the other sites to have the right information if we have a lot of outdated ourselves.. not to say there is a ton but the old stuff is still around.
Aug 07 11:53:20 <Southern_Gentlem>	CB6, if you see something on solved that is out of date or incorrect file a bug
Aug 07 11:53:24 <nirik>	CB6: I'm sure they would be happy to get updates and/or pointers to outdated articles. ;)
Aug 07 11:53:48 <nirik>	in any case, shall we move on? or anything more on bot?
Aug 07 11:54:18 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1
Aug 07 11:54:22 <vwbusguy>	+1
Aug 07 11:54:35 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support Meeting - Targeted help sessions
Aug 07 11:55:04 <NthDegree>	hmmm?  As in classroom-style things?
Aug 07 11:55:06 <nirik>	so, I was wondering if we shouldn't try doing some targeted help sessions... ie, try and get a maintainer or two to commit to be available at specific times for help with their packages/areas
Aug 07 11:55:22 <NthDegree>	nirik, I think it's a great idea
Aug 07 11:55:35 <nirik>	well, thats another thought, but this would be helping, more than a teaching/classroom style.
Aug 07 11:56:02 <NthDegree>	Especially for "hard" packages, i'd love to see Dan Walsh talk about SELinux for example
Aug 07 11:56:09 <nirik>	What do folks think? Would it be disruptive for the channel? How would we advertise it?
Aug 07 11:56:11 <CB6>	yes!
Aug 07 11:56:21 <NthDegree>	nirik, what about a separate channel
Aug 07 11:56:30 <NthDegree>	you have the bot advertise it in #fedora discreetly
Aug 07 11:56:36 <Southern_Gentlem>	yes yes, someplace like #fedora-classroom
Aug 07 11:56:49 <thomasj>	+1 for the seperate channel
Aug 07 11:56:57 <Southern_Gentlem>	several of us can advertise it in the channel
Aug 07 11:57:13 <NthDegree>	i'd say have the bot do it in a uniform way
Aug 07 11:57:23 <nirik>	I think we should advertise it in blogs/mailinglists as well...
Aug 07 11:57:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	if the bot is up
Aug 07 11:57:25 <NthDegree>	simply because those not interested could filter it out if they wanted to
Aug 07 11:57:27 <CB6>	a lot of people idle in there like myself just to learn... it's a very, very good idea. Adding zcat in the chan would help a lot lol
Aug 07 11:57:42 <mock>	Sonar_Guy could update the topic again
Aug 07 11:57:53 <Southern_Gentlem>	CB6,  zcat is not a bot
Aug 07 11:58:04 <ivazquez>	#fedora's topic is already full.
Aug 07 11:58:15 <mock>	:(
Aug 07 11:58:26 <vwbusguy>	I agree, people don't read it anymore anyway
Aug 07 11:58:31 <mock>	true
Aug 07 11:58:46 <NthDegree>	you could trim the topic
Aug 07 11:58:47 <nirik>	ok, so two seperate things here: classes (moderated teaching), and targeted help area. Which one would be better to try and get going? Or both? Which would be more usefull do you think?
Aug 07 11:58:50 <zcat>	if doing the #fedora-class thing, it would be nice to have a read-only screen (or vnc) session people could view at the same time.
Aug 07 11:58:51 <NthDegree>	but most people will ignore it
Aug 07 11:58:57 <CB6>	How about a PM system that gives updates in the channel??
Aug 07 11:59:00 -->	sdziallas (n=sebastia@p57A2E419.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 11:59:01 <NthDegree>	zcat, I agree
Aug 07 11:59:04 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik both +1
Aug 07 11:59:16 <CB6>	When you enter inter #fedora it gives users a list of updated news links etc??
Aug 07 11:59:16 <Southern_Gentlem>	CB6,  no
Aug 07 11:59:23 <NthDegree>	nirik, or how about two channels for the same
Aug 07 11:59:25 <NthDegree>	think of this
Aug 07 11:59:29 <--	lontra_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 07 11:59:31 <NthDegree>	1) channel with demonstrations/teaching
Aug 07 11:59:32 <Southern_Gentlem>	chanserv message is full as well
Aug 07 11:59:35 <vwbusguy>	CB6, no
Aug 07 11:59:37 <NthDegree>	2) channel for Q&A
Aug 07 11:59:44 <NthDegree>	that way questions don't disrupt
Aug 07 11:59:46 <ivazquez>	If we're going to do a screencast then we'll need it to be "handled" via Fedora infrastructure.
Aug 07 12:00:01 <ivazquez>	Not everyone's connection can handle that many connections.
Aug 07 12:00:05 <NthDegree>	with a screencast we'd have a few problems
Aug 07 12:00:10 <ivazquez>	Blah. You know what I mean.
Aug 07 12:00:17 <NthDegree>	1) trust - it would have to be a trusted system
Aug 07 12:00:18 <vwbusguy>	how about during the teaching channel only the instructor has a voice and can give voice to those with questions
Aug 07 12:00:21 <zcat>	ivazquez, vnc probably not, but screen yes
Aug 07 12:00:22 <vwbusguy>	but the instructor is in control
Aug 07 12:00:31 <CB6>	well how else can we get out the essential kind of information out autonomously?
Aug 07 12:00:31 <nirik>	yeah, screencast adds in more issues. Depends on what the topic is if thats usefull.
Aug 07 12:00:36 <NthDegree>	vwbusguy, too restricted... people need to be free to talk somewhere
Aug 07 12:00:47 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, the Q&A channel is for that
Aug 07 12:00:53 <NthDegree>	ah eyah
Aug 07 12:00:58 <NthDegree>	in that case +1
Aug 07 12:00:59 <NthDegree>	=]
Aug 07 12:01:28 *	nirik still wonders if the targeted help sessions couldn't just be in #fedora... 
Aug 07 12:01:40 <vwbusguy>	nirik, I don't like it
Aug 07 12:01:54 <vwbusguy>	nirik, it would dirsact from the original purpose of #fedora as a support channel
Aug 07 12:01:58 <vwbusguy>	*distract
Aug 07 12:01:59 <CB6>	that would be a heck of a lot of information in a channel going on if someone was giving a lecture
Aug 07 12:02:11 <nirik>	they are getting support tho... just more questions on a specific area.
Aug 07 12:02:20 <CB6>	class should be like only for when someone is giving a lecture
Aug 07 12:02:32 *	nirik is thinking people don't understand what he means by targeted help. 
Aug 07 12:02:40 <vwbusguy>	but it would distract from or keep people from asking about unrelated but legitimate help
Aug 07 12:02:49 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik we could try it, but i think it would take away form a user coming in needing help with video when the topic is selinux
Aug 07 12:03:00 *	ivazquez thinks we've gone off on a tangent from nirik's idea
Aug 07 12:03:00 <NthDegree>	nirik, targetted help as in having the owner of a package explain how it works
Aug 07 12:03:16 <CB6>	vwbusguy the chances of having that many people in each related channel would be a lot smaller
Aug 07 12:03:32 <nirik>	so, say I get rdieter (just for example) to commit to being in channel for X hours on Y day to take KDE questions. Other questions are just fine, but he will be able to field the KDE ones perhaps that others of us wouldn't.
Aug 07 12:03:32 *	vwbusguy thinks a fedora-class would be a good channel for that.
Aug 07 12:03:35 <NthDegree>	the problem is #fedora would get clogged if we had targetted help in there
Aug 07 12:04:08 <CB6>	how about a log that shows variable different lectures in a class channel?
Aug 07 12:04:09 <NthDegree>	has anyone seen Ubuntu's "classroom" sessions?  if they had them in #ubuntu I wonder what the effect would be
Aug 07 12:04:27 <NthDegree>	similar effect would happen with targeted help in #fedora
Aug 07 12:04:29 <thomasj>	nirik, that sounds good as well
Aug 07 12:04:34 *	nirik notes that Classes != Targeted help. Not the same thing. 
Aug 07 12:04:46 <zcat>	nirik, then call that channel #fedora-expert-hour or something more accurate
Aug 07 12:05:02 <CB6>	classes targeted help seems like a good idea... open questions etc
Aug 07 12:05:05 <vwbusguy>	how is targeted help different than, #fedora-security or #fedora-games ?
Aug 07 12:05:06 <zcat>	expertqa
Aug 07 12:05:15 <NthDegree>	nirik, ah you just mean having package owners in channel at specific times to take questions?
Aug 07 12:05:20 <nirik>	NthDegree: yes.
Aug 07 12:05:33 <NthDegree>	that could have a separate channel still as generic help would cloud the "expert" questions
Aug 07 12:05:43 <nirik>	zcat: thats a thought. I don't know how much additional traffic it would generate tho really.
Aug 07 12:05:53 <CB6>	Having an expert panel cycle through say #fedora class would be very stimulating. I don't think there's many people that wouldn't be interested in going in for that
Aug 07 12:06:25 <vwbusguy>	class with Q&A after
Aug 07 12:06:42 <CB6>	nthdegree even noobs can learn from the advanced questions ;)
Aug 07 12:06:49 <nirik>	vwbusguy: because they would commit to being available at that time for questions...
Aug 07 12:07:20 <CB6>	nirik they could post sessions on a website?
Aug 07 12:07:29 <vwbusguy>	posting the logs would be easy
Aug 07 12:07:30 <CB6>	that way people could target the sessions they were interested in
Aug 07 12:07:47 <CB6>	would be a new way for developers to see where peoples minds were at too
Aug 07 12:07:52 <Southern_Gentlem>	calenadar like the one for this channel
Aug 07 12:07:55 <nirik>	yes, there would need to be a schedule on the wiki, etc.
Aug 07 12:08:05 <CB6>	Southern exactly
Aug 07 12:08:16 <Southern_Gentlem>	cb6 thats minor
Aug 07 12:08:31 <CB6>	exactly keep it simple
Aug 07 12:08:39 *	nirik notes he doesn't have anyone talked into giving classroom or targeted help sessions, just thought it was an idea to toss out there. 
Aug 07 12:09:07 <CB6>	lol find someone who knows SElinux!!!
Aug 07 12:09:19 <vwbusguy>	CB6, #fedora-security was made for that
Aug 07 12:09:38 <vwbusguy>	that's why #fedora takes basic questions and then sends them to fedora-security
Aug 07 12:09:38 <--	nphilipp has quit ("Leaving")
Aug 07 12:09:41 <nirik>	vwbusguy: #fedora-security is pretty quiet... #selinux might be better.
Aug 07 12:10:05 <Khaytsus>	nirik: So did I get my opbat or what? :D
Aug 07 12:10:07 <CB6>	vwbusguy but wouldn't it be more effective to give regular lectures to avoid the re informing everyone all the time?
Aug 07 12:10:07 <nirik>	ok, so I guess everything thinks the ideas are good, we need to figure out implementation. I guess I can try and write something up for next week...
Aug 07 12:10:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	CB6 i see these "classes" as helping the users and in the future creating new contributors as in helpers and or maintainers
Aug 07 12:10:42 <vwbusguy>	CB6, outside of AVC denials, most of the SELinux questions seem to be user specific
Aug 07 12:10:58 <CB6>	southern exactly
Aug 07 12:11:07 <nirik>	Khaytsus: oh, I thought you did last week... but I guess not. Not sure we have enough ops here to vote... next week? and/or we can collect votes as we find ops?
Aug 07 12:11:24 <Khaytsus>	nirik: I think last week was waiting on this week?
Aug 07 12:11:43 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik we put off the vote on vwguy and Khaytsus  till this week because they were not here
Aug 07 12:11:48 <CB6>	vwbusguy then having more than one expert in might be quite a bit more useful ... one guy getting bombarded with questions would be a bit tough
Aug 07 12:11:59 <vwbusguy>	Southern_Gentlem, we voted earlier but not enough ops were here at the time
Aug 07 12:12:01 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: yeah, but now we don't have a quorum of ops I don't think...
Aug 07 12:12:01 -->	abadger1999 (n=abadger1@65.78.187.8) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:12:08 <Southern_Gentlem>	+1 both
Aug 07 12:12:13 <nirik>	+1 to both for me
Aug 07 12:12:35 <thomasj>	+1 Khaytsus
Aug 07 12:12:36 <NthDegree>	surely majority vote says they get ops
Aug 07 12:13:01 <nirik>	NthDegree: I think we agreed that it was a majority vote of current ops.
Aug 07 12:13:04 <Khaytsus>	I'm not in a rush, just didn't see it..  I'm in between working and rolling my head around in agony right now so I wasn't sure if I missed it
Aug 07 12:13:09 <Southern_Gentlem>	ivazquez, vote please
Aug 07 12:13:18 <nirik>	which gets harder when they are in other timezones and not able to make the meeting.
Aug 07 12:13:21 <NthDegree>	nirik, yeah, but look at the logs.. there's quite a few +1 in last weeks >.>
Aug 07 12:13:43 <CB6>	nirik the logs will be essential
Aug 07 12:13:43 <Southern_Gentlem>	daMaestro, vote
Aug 07 12:13:53 <ivazquez>	Sorry. +1 both.
Aug 07 12:14:07 *	daMaestro reads
Aug 07 12:14:21 <vwbusguy>	daMaestro, voting on ops for me and Khaytsus
Aug 07 12:14:38 <zcat>	(a little late, but i'd love to see a live IRC Q&A + VNC/screen session (for the A demos) on various topics. "next up: ivazquez shows off packagingfoo". no idea how well it'd work in practice)
Aug 07 12:14:38 <daMaestro>	+1 to both
Aug 07 12:15:00 <zcat>	+1 veedub & khatsusus
Aug 07 12:15:14 <daMaestro>	the more trusted OPs we have (with policy) the fewer shifts i have to work ;-)
Aug 07 12:15:29 <vwbusguy>	haha
Aug 07 12:15:36 <Southern_Gentlem>	daMaestro,  the less you have to work, the less i have to work
Aug 07 12:16:04 <Southern_Gentlem>	this is it first time in years my name is not on the ban list for banning someone
Aug 07 12:16:07 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, Sonar_Guy, you here?
Aug 07 12:16:14 -->	lxo (n=aoliva@201.82.112.27) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:16:16 <nirik>	ok, thats 6... there are 20 ops, but about 5 of them are backups.
Aug 07 12:16:17 -->	spoleeba (n=one@fedora/Jef) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:16:28 <nirik>	sgallagh gave a +1 to Khaytsus last meeting.
Aug 07 12:16:33 <sgallagh>	I am
Aug 07 12:16:37 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, nominated me last meeting
Aug 07 12:16:37 <Southern_Gentlem>	spoleeba,  vote for ops
Aug 07 12:16:49 <Southern_Gentlem>	spoleeba, vwbusguy and or Khaytsus
Aug 07 12:16:56 <nirik>	and that, yes. ;) so thats 7
Aug 07 12:16:57 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, oh hi
Aug 07 12:16:57 <sgallagh>	I'm not an op, so I don't get a vote
Aug 07 12:17:04 <--	lxo has quit (Client Quit)
Aug 07 12:17:27 <nirik>	oh, right. ;(
Aug 07 12:17:28 <vwbusguy>	Ha, then I nominate sgallagh.
Aug 07 12:17:36 *	sgallagh blinks
Aug 07 12:17:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik i think it should be the ops in the channel
Aug 07 12:18:03 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: in the channel?
Aug 07 12:18:11 <Khaytsus>	I think nirik had a BF :)
Aug 07 12:18:26 <sgallagh>	I'm going to decline that nomination, actually. I can't commit the time.
Aug 07 12:18:44 <vwbusguy>	that's cool
Aug 07 12:19:09 <sgallagh>	Thank you, though
Aug 07 12:19:09 <nirik>	Khaytsus: indeed. ;) Also, anvil gave you a +1
Aug 07 12:19:21 <CB6>	khaytsus is good he's always in the chan
Aug 07 12:19:43 <NthDegree>	and very helpful too =]
Aug 07 12:19:45 <CB6>	lol indeed
Aug 07 12:19:45 <vwbusguy>	is kanarip an op now?
Aug 07 12:19:46 <Southern_Gentlem>	sometimes
Aug 07 12:19:56 <NthDegree>	but he could be a BOFH for all we know *hides*
Aug 07 12:20:14 <NthDegree>	if users could vote i'd give him +1
Aug 07 12:20:16 <zcat>	/cs access #fedora list
Aug 07 12:20:41 <nirik>	I think thats enough votes, but I guess it depends on how we want to do things... majority of total? majority of active?
Aug 07 12:20:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	majority of active
Aug 07 12:21:28 <vwbusguy>	kanarip, you here for a vote?
Aug 07 12:21:30 <nirik>	yeah, so I read that as 13 active. 7 backup types/never around.
Aug 07 12:21:40 <spoleeba>	Southern_Gentlem, im voting on something?
Aug 07 12:21:57 <Southern_Gentlem>	spoleeba,  for ops for vwbusguy and Khaytsus
Aug 07 12:22:13 <spoleeba>	Southern_Gentlem, but i loath both of them
Aug 07 12:22:18 <vwbusguy>	haha
Aug 07 12:22:43 <ivazquez>	You loathe everyone. How is that any different? :P
Aug 07 12:22:46 <CB6>	I've never seen spoleeba say anything before ... the guy has to be stealth
Aug 07 12:22:47 <Southern_Gentlem>	Your board voted that we had to open the channel from registered users so we need more ops
Aug 07 12:22:51 <spoleeba>	Southern_Gentlem, what do i have to do.... just +1 in channel?
Aug 07 12:22:58 <Southern_Gentlem>	spoleeba,  yep
Aug 07 12:23:13 <spoleeba>	Southern_Gentlem, +1
Aug 07 12:23:15 <Southern_Gentlem>	as exam +1 both or which name you want
Aug 07 12:23:23 <spoleeba>	+1 both
Aug 07 12:23:33 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik,  there you go
Aug 07 12:23:47 <nirik>	ok, that looks like enough...
Aug 07 12:23:47 <spoleeba>	Southern_Gentlem, just for the record... i hate them
Aug 07 12:23:53 <vwbusguy>	haha
Aug 07 12:24:01 <nirik>	vwbusguy and Khaytsus, go by fedora-ops and collect your bats.
Aug 07 12:24:02 <Southern_Gentlem>	spoleeba,  for the record you voted for them
Aug 07 12:24:08 <spoleeba>	Southern_Gentlem, for the greater good
Aug 07 12:24:22 <vwbusguy>	yay
Aug 07 12:24:22 <nirik>	ok, so... shall we move on?
Aug 07 12:24:23 <mock>	for great justice
Aug 07 12:24:31 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support Meeting - Progress?
Aug 07 12:24:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	lsowly but surely
Aug 07 12:24:49 <spoleeba>	Southern_Gentlem, my goal is to see #fedora shutdown instead of succeed..
Aug 07 12:24:51 <nirik>	How are we doing? Things impoving still?
Aug 07 12:25:00 *	kc8hfi +1 to spoleeba for looking above and beyond his personal issues with voting for these 2
Aug 07 12:25:05 *	CB6 watches for Hot Fuzz police
Aug 07 12:25:19 <vwbusguy>	spoleeba, are you good at failing?
Aug 07 12:25:33 <spoleeba>	vwbusguy, sadly no.. i keep trying
Aug 07 12:25:51 <Southern_Gentlem>	are we getting close on time
Aug 07 12:26:13 <ivazquez>	We have this channel for a few hours yet.
Aug 07 12:26:13 <vwbusguy>	nirik, I think things have improved a lot
Aug 07 12:26:15 <zcat>	nirik, trolling: up 30%
Aug 07 12:26:20 <vwbusguy>	But in part I think that we're in between releases.
Aug 07 12:26:29 <nirik>	yeah, I would like to remind everyone, but especially ops folks that you should try and remain polite and friendly, even in the face of people who aren't...
Aug 07 12:26:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	zcat that is always a sign wave its up and its down
Aug 07 12:26:58 <nirik>	zcat: yeah, there has been a fair bit... we need to be polite and nice until they cross the line.
Aug 07 12:27:35 <CB6>	just post a thing that says this is a professional channel or something with relative etiquette
Aug 07 12:27:38 <nirik>	also, we should look at and prune the ban list... remember to remove bans when they are up
Aug 07 12:27:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik and on most cases i think we are succeeding on that
Aug 07 12:27:54 <nirik>	yeah, I think it's much better than it has been in the past on that.
Aug 07 12:28:15 <Southern_Gentlem>	we need to work on the end user stuff at a future meeting
Aug 07 12:28:22 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support Meeting - Open Floor
Aug 07 12:28:25 <vwbusguy>	the channel is functional.
Aug 07 12:28:30 <nirik>	any further topics? ideas?
Aug 07 12:28:55 <CB6>	switching topics in #fedora from time to time?
Aug 07 12:29:07 <vwbusguy>	CB6, only for new releases
Aug 07 12:29:09 <vwbusguy>	and EOL
Aug 07 12:29:10 <CB6>	since people often wander off it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk about new fedora technologies etc
Aug 07 12:29:12 <NthDegree>	prune that topic a bit
Aug 07 12:29:22 <Southern_Gentlem>	we have the ops aka guide we need to work more on the user -helpers guides in the near future
Aug 07 12:29:29 <nirik>	the topic is limited... ;(
Aug 07 12:29:30 <Southern_Gentlem>	NthDegree,  like
Aug 07 12:29:34 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: agreed.
Aug 07 12:29:37 <vwbusguy>	pruning is good, no one read sit now so links to fedorasolved and fedoraunity etc go unnoticed
Aug 07 12:29:46 <NthDegree>	rather than have a url for each of these bits why can't we have a URL that points to a wikipage with all resources
Aug 07 12:29:46 <vwbusguy>	it was a good idea, but not working well in practice
Aug 07 12:29:59 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, good idea
Aug 07 12:30:16 <Southern_Gentlem>	current topic from # fedora
Aug 07 12:30:17 <Southern_Gentlem>	F8, F9, F10A | No ATI proprietary drivers for F9 yet. Try radeon or radeonhd driver instead. | F9 F10A Released: http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora | F8, F9 Respins: http://spins.fedoraunity.org/ | Bugs go to http://bugzilla.redhat.com/ | Solutions: http://www.fedorasolved.org/ | Forum: http://www.fedoraforum.org/ | News: http://fedoranews.org/ | #fedora-cc ("cc" is your language code) |  Be Polite | Poll and be
Aug 07 12:30:17 <Southern_Gentlem>	 Banned |
Aug 07 12:30:23 <sgallagh>	Might be worth having the mythical op-bot post an hourly reminder of the topic
Aug 07 12:30:25 <Southern_Gentlem>	what needs to be trimmed
Aug 07 12:30:41 <NthDegree>	F9 F10A Released: http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora | F8, F9 Respins: http://spins.fedoraunity.org/ | Bugs go to http://bugzilla.redhat.com/ | Solutions: http://www.fedorasolved.org/ | Forum: http://www.fedoraforum.org/ | News: http://fedoranews.org/ | #f
Aug 07 12:30:44 <NthDegree>	get rid of that
Aug 07 12:30:51 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, I don't think that's necessary
Aug 07 12:30:52 <NthDegree>	have a wiki page for it
Aug 07 12:31:01 <NthDegree>	a single URL with a summary of all that stuff
Aug 07 12:31:03 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, depending ont he client /topic is always displayed.
Aug 07 12:31:04 <kc8hfi>	and replace it with a single link to a wikipage.
Aug 07 12:31:10 <NthDegree>	yeah
Aug 07 12:31:18 <nirik>	thats a thought I suppose...
Aug 07 12:31:21 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, I like that idea
Aug 07 12:31:26 <CB6>	Does a single page not exist though?
Aug 07 12:31:34 <NthDegree>	a single link to a Wikipage which could be called "News" or something would do just as well
Aug 07 12:31:59 <CB6>	I don't think we can count on people to read which I why I'm wondering what can be done to give people a sort of update when they come in
Aug 07 12:32:11 <nirik>	well, then people could ignore the link... but they can ignore the topic now, so not sure we loose much.
Aug 07 12:32:19 <--	giallu has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 07 12:32:26 <vwbusguy>	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate#Helping_Yourself
Aug 07 12:32:31 <CB6>	lol as long as we leave the ATI drivers thing up
Aug 07 12:32:32 <nirik>	anyone else want to weigh in on the idea?
Aug 07 12:32:46 <CB6>	I'd let it sit
Aug 07 12:32:56 -->	che (n=rkastl@redhat/che) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:32:57 <NthDegree>	CB6, some channels have those small ChanServ notices on entry
Aug 07 12:33:03 <NthDegree>	we could have the links on one of them
Aug 07 12:33:07 <mock>	i check the topic for changes in the ati message.  i use that for my daily notice
Aug 07 12:33:08 <Southern_Gentlem>	NthDegree,  its full as well
Aug 07 12:33:13 <CB6>	well that's kind of what I was aiming for .. stuff people can't really miss
Aug 07 12:33:32 <NthDegree>	Southern_Gentlem, what about removing the stuff about ATI drivers from the topic
Aug 07 12:33:43 <Southern_Gentlem>	i disagree
Aug 07 12:33:44 <nirik>	F8, F9, F10a support: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS ?
Aug 07 12:33:48 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, I disagree
Aug 07 12:34:05 <nirik>	the ATI thing gets a lot of questions.
Aug 07 12:34:05 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, that is a common question in #fedora and would be much more common if that were removed
Aug 07 12:34:06 <mock>	i like the idea of a single page to send people for all news and help start, whether it replaces the topic or not
Aug 07 12:34:09 -->	lxo (n=aoliva@201.82.112.27) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:34:18 <NthDegree>	yeah same here mock
Aug 07 12:34:30 <CB6>	One universal page is a good idea but we can't eliminate everything. We need to figure out how we can get the info to the people while changing the topic
Aug 07 12:34:35 <NthDegree>	especially for those who have stayed on say Fedora 7 and are just upgrading
Aug 07 12:34:40 <nirik>	F8, F9, F10a support: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS | No ATI proprietary drivers for F9 yet. Try radeon or radeonhd driver instead. (2008-08-07)
Aug 07 12:34:45 <Southern_Gentlem>	NthDegree,  we see questions about ATI drivers 100 times aday
Aug 07 12:34:55 <NthDegree>	Southern_Gentlem, ah my bad
Aug 07 12:35:08 <vwbusguy>	nirik, Keep the Be Polite.
Aug 07 12:35:19 <NthDegree>	hmmm
Aug 07 12:35:22 <vwbusguy>	nirik, but it's looking a lot better
Aug 07 12:35:24 <kc8hfi>	along with being polite, poll and be banned should also be there.
Aug 07 12:35:28 <CB6>	vwbusguy how about keep it professional it says a lot more??
Aug 07 12:35:29 <NthDegree>	what about
Aug 07 12:35:37 ---	John5342 is now known as John5342_Away
Aug 07 12:35:44 <nirik>	F8, F9, F10a support: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS | No ATI proprietary drivers for F9 yet. Try radeon or radeonhd driver instead | Be Polite. Poll and be banned (2008-08-07)
Aug 07 12:35:52 <mock>	F8, F9, F10a support | start here: url_for_all_links_page | no ati drivers | #fedora-cc info
Aug 07 12:35:56 <--	petreu has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Aug 07 12:36:20 <nirik>	no ati drivers isnt good... it makes it sound like it's fedora's fault. ;)
Aug 07 12:36:29 <mock>	i was summing
Aug 07 12:36:37 <mock>	summing up
Aug 07 12:36:42 <vwbusguy>	yeah need to specify ati's proprietary drivers
Aug 07 12:36:46 <NthDegree>	F8, F9, F10a support: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS | No ATI proprietary drivers for F9 yet. Try radeon or radeonhd driver instead | Be Polite. Polling is forbidden | #fedora-[country code] for non-English speakers  (2008-08-07)
Aug 07 12:36:46 <sgallagh>	F8, F9, F10a support | start here: url_for_all_links_page | ATI doesn't support F9
Aug 07 12:37:10 <CB6>	True I've heard windows users come in asking if their card would even work in Fedora. The ATI ad is too ambiguous
Aug 07 12:37:22 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, yeah that's probably as small as wel can get it
Aug 07 12:37:25 <mock>	current ati message is perfect
Aug 07 12:37:38 <thomasj>	i like the #fedora-[country code]
Aug 07 12:37:39 <vwbusguy>	I wouldn't update it unless ATI comes up with drivers or for EOL or new releases
Aug 07 12:37:42 <NthDegree>	CB6, they don't even know how to use Windows then I bet
Aug 07 12:37:42 <mock>	keep:   No ATI proprietary drivers for F9 yet. Try radeon or radeonhd  driver instead.
Aug 07 12:37:50 <nirik>	F8, F9, F10a support | start here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS | No ATI proprietary drivers for F9 yet | Be Polite. Poll and be banned (2008-08-07)
Aug 07 12:37:56 <CB6>	NthDegree that's ok with me as long as they're ready to learn
Aug 07 12:38:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	need the language stuff there
Aug 07 12:38:10 <ivazquez>	"No proprietary ATI drivers"
Aug 07 12:38:10 <NthDegree>	CB6, most Windows users know there is such a thing as generic VGA drivers
Aug 07 12:38:12 <mock>	i would use:  #fedora-cc (country code)
Aug 07 12:38:27 <vwbusguy>	ivazquez, they exist for f8 though
Aug 07 12:38:35 <mock>	gives syntax
Aug 07 12:38:38 <ivazquez>	Yes, but the wording was wrong.
Aug 07 12:38:47 <vwbusguy>	and actually the drivers aren't there for f10a either
Aug 07 12:38:54 <CB6>	I wouldn't assume anything
Aug 07 12:39:01 <nirik>	F8, F9, F10a support | start here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS | No proprietary ATI drivers for F9 yet | #fedora-cc ("cc" is your language code) | Be Polite. Poll and be banned (2008-08-07)
Aug 07 12:39:05 <NthDegree>	mock, it would have to be #fedora-cc (cc == country code) in that case
Aug 07 12:39:05 <Southern_Gentlem>	f10A is development
Aug 07 12:39:11 <NthDegree>	or what nirik said
Aug 07 12:39:16 <NthDegree>	nirik +1
Aug 07 12:39:23 <vwbusguy>	nirik, looks better
Aug 07 12:39:25 <mock>	NthDegree: maybe, but i could figure it out as it was
Aug 07 12:39:30 <--	lxo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Aug 07 12:39:31 <CB6>	How about no 3d or acceleration/proprietary
Aug 07 12:39:38 <nirik>	CB6: too wordy
Aug 07 12:39:45 <CB6>	true.. how can we refine that
Aug 07 12:39:45 <mock>	need the date?
Aug 07 12:39:52 <vwbusguy>	CB6, radeon and radeonhd support 3D so no
Aug 07 12:39:52 <NthDegree>	CB6, but they do have 3D accel
Aug 07 12:39:57 -->	lxo (n=aoliva@201.82.112.27) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:40:01 <nirik>	I thought the date might be nice to tell when it was last updated... but just a thought.
Aug 07 12:40:06 <NthDegree>	ATI free drivers do 3D now
Aug 07 12:40:06 <CB6>	the channel has ops so a date isn't necessary is it???
Aug 07 12:40:10 <kc8hfi>	I think is good, No proprietary ATI drivers for F9 yet
Aug 07 12:40:16 <NthDegree>	nirik, no need
Aug 07 12:40:18 <NthDegree>	IRCd says that
Aug 07 12:40:28 <NthDegree>	* Topic for #fedora-meeting is: IRC Support Meeting - Open Floor
Aug 07 12:40:28 <NthDegree>	* Topic for #fedora-meeting set by nirik at Thu Aug  7 17:28:09 2008
Aug 07 12:40:34 <NthDegree>	and most clients show it
Aug 07 12:40:34 <nirik>	sure, if you look.
Aug 07 12:40:49 <nirik>	we are targeting this topic at folks who don't know much about how things work
Aug 07 12:40:56 <NthDegree>	ah
Aug 07 12:41:00 <Southern_Gentlem>	nirik,  freenode date stamps it anyways
Aug 07 12:41:01 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, they show it when it's changed but not persistently
Aug 07 12:41:04 <NthDegree>	chanops should know though right?
Aug 07 12:41:20 <vwbusguy>	yeah, I don't think it needs dating
Aug 07 12:41:30 <mock>	nirik: i like as you last posted it
Aug 07 12:41:33 <nirik>	sure, I was mostly thinking it would be good to try and cut down on the "has ati come out with a driver, is the topic up to date" questions.
Aug 07 12:41:36 <sgallagh>	F8, F9 support,  F10a (limited) |  start here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS | No proprietary ATI drivers for F9 yet | #fedora-cc ("cc" is your language code) | Be Polite. Poll and be banned
Aug 07 12:41:48 <NthDegree>	sgallagh +1
Aug 07 12:41:54 <CB6>	If you have a channel with like 400 people you'd like to think the ops would keep things current especially with new setup every 6-8 months
Aug 07 12:42:06 <NthDegree>	yeah I agree
Aug 07 12:42:07 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, +1
Aug 07 12:42:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	cb6 we do
Aug 07 12:42:13 <nirik>	CB6: sure, and we do, but people just joining the channel for the first time don't know that
Aug 07 12:42:14 <sgallagh>	Probably should note the F10a is an alpha and they can't expect full support
Aug 07 12:42:27 <mock>	s/F8, F9 support,  F10a (limited)/F8, F9, F10a support/
Aug 07 12:42:32 <Southern_Gentlem>	rather remove f10a myself
Aug 07 12:42:34 <nirik>	well, we don't promise any SLA on support, so I think limited is not needed.
Aug 07 12:42:40 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, that doesn't need explained in /topic
Aug 07 12:42:49 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, but good point
Aug 07 12:42:53 *	kc8hfi agrees with Southern_Gentlem 
Aug 07 12:42:56 <CB6>	I wonder how we can tell people that ATI works but no proprietary?
Aug 07 12:43:13 <sgallagh>	Yeah, Southern_Gentlem might have the right of it. Just take F10a out of the topic. Leave that to #fedora-devel
Aug 07 12:43:15 -->	foolish (n=foolish@fedora/foolish) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:43:25 <nirik>	if we don't know, we won't answer. I am fine with people asking about f10a... they will just get less helpers able to help them.
Aug 07 12:43:27 <vwbusguy>	that does make sense
Aug 07 12:43:35 <CB6>	So is there a Fedora IRC universal page set??
Aug 07 12:43:48 <CB6>	it could kind of interact with Fedora news, and marketing??
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Aug 07 12:44:07 <Southern_Gentlem>	CB6,  there you go right it up
Aug 07 12:44:10 <che>	nirik, i always have to smile when i read basic questions regarding to rawhide
Aug 07 12:44:10 <vwbusguy>	CB6, it exists
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Aug 07 12:44:29 <Southern_Gentlem>	include links to the Fedora Unity re-spins please
Aug 07 12:44:32 <vwbusguy>	CB6, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate#IRC
Aug 07 12:44:34 <nirik>	ok, so we can look at updating things, but we need a wiki page first
Aug 07 12:44:55 <CB6>	I'd like to see Fedora help found easier for certain
Aug 07 12:44:58 <nirik>	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC is not what we want.
Aug 07 12:45:06 <vwbusguy>	nirik, I didn't think so
Aug 07 12:45:12 <NthDegree>	no we need a proper news page
Aug 07 12:45:14 <nirik>	we want all the links from the current topic and perhaps a link to that IRC page.
Aug 07 12:45:17 <vwbusguy>	nirik, he said "universal IRC"
Aug 07 12:45:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	but the News Page can include a link to it
Aug 07 12:45:33 <NthDegree>	one with the latest info, and things to know
Aug 07 12:45:38 <nirik>	does someone want to write up such a page?
Aug 07 12:45:40 <mock>	wasn't fedoraos.org meant to be that?
Aug 07 12:45:44 <NthDegree>	it wants links that were in the topic
Aug 07 12:45:54 <NthDegree>	and it wants links to things like "Known Annoying Bugs" and such
Aug 07 12:45:57 <CB6>	Adding #Fedora-Class into news feed would be really good
Aug 07 12:46:13 <mock>	hmm...it's changed since i last saw it
Aug 07 12:46:13 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, bugzilla you mean?
Aug 07 12:46:34 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, maybe links to bugzilla, but people shouldn't post bugs to somewhere else
Aug 07 12:46:54 <nirik>	the page pointed to in the topic should be very simple and basic...
Aug 07 12:47:06 <NthDegree>	vwbusguy, I mean bugs that aren't Fedora bugs
Aug 07 12:47:16 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, then why would we be concerned?
Aug 07 12:47:20 <NthDegree>	things like external apps that are known to fail
Aug 07 12:47:25 <zcat>	NthDegree, vwbusguy, that's the "f9common" page
Aug 07 12:47:26 <Southern_Gentlem>	no
Aug 07 12:47:27 <vwbusguy>	NthDegree, again, handled by bugzilla
Aug 07 12:47:28 <NthDegree>	e.g. Xen can't host on Fedora 9
Aug 07 12:47:35 <NthDegree>	no Dom0 support
Aug 07 12:47:36 <zcat>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugs/F9Common
Aug 07 12:47:40 <vwbusguy>	zcat, ?
Aug 07 12:47:52 <vwbusguy>	ah
Aug 07 12:47:52 *	nirik needs to get going here soon... 
Aug 07 12:47:54 <NthDegree>	zcat, yeah that sort of thing
Aug 07 12:47:57 *	Southern_Gentlem shallowing lunch
Aug 07 12:48:16 <CB6>	maybe we can refine this area http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-help
Aug 07 12:48:39 <mock>	put the links to fedorasolved.org, fedoraunity.org, fedoraforum.org, and bugzilla on fedoraos.org?
Aug 07 12:48:47 <nirik>	perhaps we can con some of the docs folks into helping with this...
Aug 07 12:48:53 <vwbusguy>	nirik, +1
Aug 07 12:49:03 <CB6>	the objective is to have a joint database from my understanding of websites
Aug 07 12:49:08 <NthDegree>	haha nirik
Aug 07 12:49:14 -->	bpepple|lt (n=bpepple|@adsl-75-60-220-141.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:49:15 *	vwbusguy 's stomach is requiring lunch.
Aug 07 12:49:21 <CB6>	stricter categories makes for a lot less work
Aug 07 12:49:31 <Southern_Gentlem>	someone put something up on start here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS |
Aug 07 12:49:35 <NthDegree>	it's almost 6pm here and I have only had a bread roll :|
Aug 07 12:49:35 -->	alexxed (n=alex@dyn-86.105.67.31.tm.upcnet.ro) has joined #fedora-meeting
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Aug 07 12:49:44 <Southern_Gentlem>	and let me know and i will change the topic
Aug 07 12:49:47 <vwbusguy>	Southern_Gentlem, ok, I'll work on it this afternoon
Aug 07 12:49:55 <vwbusguy>	I'll put something togather and we can review it
Aug 07 12:49:57 <vwbusguy>	or docs can
Aug 07 12:50:00 <NthDegree>	gah another thing I need to re-signup to
Aug 07 12:50:02 -->	lxo (n=aoliva@201.82.112.27) has joined #fedora-meeting
Aug 07 12:50:08 <nirik>	Southern_Gentlem: yeah, we should get it setup before changing topic...
Aug 07 12:50:16 <nirik>	vwbusguy: awesome. ;)
Aug 07 12:50:33 <Southern_Gentlem>	i trimmed the topic down so all we have to do is add start here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC/NEWS |
Aug 07 12:51:09 <nirik>	ok, we can always switch it back if it's a problem later.
Aug 07 12:51:21 <nirik>	ok, I vote to adjourn. ;)
Aug 07 12:51:31 <kc8hfi>	+1
Aug 07 12:51:36 <CB6>	On entering the room it would still be essential to have some information because news doesn't really indicate help or support
Aug 07 12:52:10 <sgallagh>	CB6: Can we create an alias to that page? Something that just redirects there so it looks more useful?
Aug 07 12:52:13 <CB6>	google key word for the link would hurt SEO
Aug 07 12:52:17 <nirik>	well, the link could be instead http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/#fedora
Aug 07 12:52:29 <nirik>	or something more generic than news.. .
Aug 07 12:52:46 *	nirik really doesn't care what its called. 
Aug 07 12:52:52 <CB6>	I really think we should wait until next week to think it out to give a really solid process to it
Aug 07 12:53:02 <sgallagh>	nirik: Actually, I'd like it to be a Wiki page that leads to Fedorasolved.org, rpm.livna.org, etc.
Aug 07 12:53:04 <NthDegree>	yeah I agree
Aug 07 12:53:13 <NthDegree>	let's wait on it
Aug 07 12:53:13 <CB6>	the more conformed and direct it is the better
Aug 07 12:53:19 <NthDegree>	draft things up first
Aug 07 12:53:25 <CB6>	ya I agree 100%
Aug 07 12:53:28 <vwbusguy>	nirik, we need to decide that now so I can quit working on /IRC/NEWS
Aug 07 12:53:28 <sgallagh>	Or the unofficial Fedora FAQ at fedorafaq.org
Aug 07 12:53:29 <nirik>	sgallagh: yes, but we need to be carefull there...
Aug 07 12:53:35 <Southern_Gentlem>	the wikii cant point to kivna
Aug 07 12:53:36 <vwbusguy>	I don't like the name NEWS personally
Aug 07 12:53:37 <Southern_Gentlem>	livna
Aug 07 12:53:46 <vwbusguy>	Southern_Gentlem, ok, I'll add that
Aug 07 12:53:47 <NthDegree>	Southern_Gentlem, it does in loads of places
Aug 07 12:53:51 <nirik>	vwbusguy: I'm open to any other name.
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Aug 07 12:53:56 <NthDegree>	I have seen links to livna in the wiki
Aug 07 12:54:07 <sgallagh>	nirik: STARTHERE
Aug 07 12:54:09 <nirik>	it can, but it can't say whats there to closely I don't think...
Aug 07 12:54:17 <vwbusguy>	 /wiki/fedora-IRC-links
Aug 07 12:54:20 <vwbusguy>	?
Aug 07 12:54:28 <CB6>	heck even a page of Fedora essentials would be great.. I've been thinking about it for a while but haven't accumulated enough knowledge to be really effective yet. I'm sure the most commonly asked questions would be great
Aug 07 12:54:30 <Southern_Gentlem>	#fedora
Aug 07 12:54:33 <nirik>	ie, you can say "the livna repo has other packages" but you can't say "you can download mp3 codecs from livna"
Aug 07 12:54:37 <vwbusguy>	 /wiki/#fedora
Aug 07 12:54:45 <vwbusguy>	would the # cause a problem with wiki?
Aug 07 12:54:46 <sgallagh>	CB6: http://www.fedorafaq.org/
Aug 07 12:54:52 <ianweller>	vwbusguy: the # would cause a problem.
Aug 07 12:55:02 <ianweller>	vwbusguy: that would signify an anchor called "fedora" on the main page
Aug 07 12:55:05 <nirik>	vwbusguy: how about IRC-Start
Aug 07 12:55:09 <CB6>	a really really brief one sgallagh
Aug 07 12:55:16 <vwbusguy>	# won't work
Aug 07 12:55:21 <vwbusguy>	it takes you to the Main_Page
Aug 07 12:55:24 <Southern_Gentlem>	IRC-START
Aug 07 12:55:36 <vwbusguy>	Southern_Gentlem, works for me
Aug 07 12:55:40 <sgallagh>	IRC-RULES ?
Aug 07 12:55:41 <vwbusguy>	problems with that anyone?
Aug 07 12:55:53 <CB6>	... can we all come up with something for the next meeting??
Aug 07 12:55:58 <Southern_Gentlem>	sgallagh,  all can be linked from there
Aug 07 12:56:05 <vwbusguy>	CB6, I want to get it put together this afternoon so we can review it next meeting
Aug 07 12:56:11 <CB6>	ah
Aug 07 12:56:22 <sgallagh>	Southern_Gentlem: I'm just trying to think of something that will catch the attention and encourage people to try there first
Aug 07 12:56:30 <nirik>	sgallagh: I think IRC-START is more generic... and more usefull sounding.
Aug 07 12:56:33 <vwbusguy>	PARIS-HILTON
Aug 07 12:56:47 *	nirik likes green for the bikeshed
Aug 07 12:56:47 <vwbusguy>	haha
Aug 07 12:56:58 *	sgallagh rescinds his ops nomination for vwbusguy
Aug 07 12:56:59 <sgallagh>	;-)
Aug 07 12:57:04 <vwbusguy>	haha
Aug 07 12:57:08 <ianweller>	maybe ask infra for fp.o/irc redirecting to something
Aug 07 12:57:20 <vwbusguy>	ok, any objectioons to /wiki/IRC-START?
Aug 07 12:57:27 <mock>	no
Aug 07 12:57:33 <CB6>	I don't really like it it be honest
Aug 07 12:57:35 <sgallagh>	vwbusguy: Why IRC-START
Aug 07 12:57:36 <mock>	not that i count
Aug 07 12:57:40 <CB6>	same lol
Aug 07 12:57:40 <sgallagh>	and not SUPPORT-START?
Aug 07 12:57:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	ianweller,  see no need when we can put it in the wiki
Aug 07 12:57:42 <vwbusguy>	sgallagh, why not?
Aug 07 12:57:59 <mock>	just 'start'?
Aug 07 12:57:59 <vwbusguy>	ok, SUPPORT-START?
Aug 07 12:58:10 <vwbusguy>	going once....
Aug 07 12:58:11 <ianweller>	WHY-ALL-CAPITAL-LETTERS-WITH-DASHES
Aug 07 12:58:18 <nirik>	that to me implies that it's talking about mailing lists and other support channels too.
Aug 07 12:58:19 <ianweller>	why not [[IRC Start]]
Aug 07 12:58:20 <vwbusguy>	Support-Start
Aug 07 12:58:29 <sgallagh>	BECAUSE I CAN'T CONTROL THE SOUND OF MY VOICE
Aug 07 12:58:35 <vwbusguy>	IRC_Start
Aug 07 12:58:41 <ianweller>	ok.
Aug 07 12:58:42 <Southern_Gentlem>	 /IRC/Start
Aug 07 12:58:48 <ianweller>	Southern_Gentlem: no.
Aug 07 12:58:53 <CB6>	start to me sounds like it's only for starting
Aug 07 12:59:00 <vwbusguy>	CB6, it is
Aug 07 12:59:07 <mock>	a good start
Aug 07 12:59:09 <CB6>	it's for all users really isn't it?? News updates etc?
Aug 07 12:59:11 <sgallagh>	L1-Support?
Aug 07 12:59:14 <vwbusguy>	we're replacing the topic not writing a book
Aug 07 12:59:23 <CB6>	my point brevity
Aug 07 12:59:26 <ianweller>	sgallagh: lol
Aug 07 12:59:27 <mock>	CB6: links to news, etc
Aug 07 12:59:35 <sgallagh>	Latest-Tips ?
Aug 07 12:59:45 *	vwbusguy thinks he will pick a name and surprise veryone later
Aug 07 12:59:55 <nirik>	Gold_dubloons_burried_here
Aug 07 13:00:08 <ianweller>	The_end_of_the_world_as_you_know_it
Aug 07 13:00:10 <vwbusguy>	 /wiki/about_buckets
Aug 07 13:00:10 *	mock can't wait
Aug 07 13:00:10 <CB6>	General Info...
Aug 07 13:00:17 *	Southern_Gentlem reminds me of a bunch of church ladies planning a church event
Aug 07 13:00:23 <nirik>	yeah. :)
Aug 07 13:00:24 *	sgallagh kicks vwbusguy's wiki title
Aug 07 13:00:42 <nirik>	ok, --MEETING END--
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