Meeting:IRC Support SIG 2009-01-15

---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Init process		Jan 15 09:30
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nirik	who all is here for the irc support meeting?	Jan 15 09:30
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Southern_Gentlem	+1	Jan 15 09:30
*zless zcat		Jan 15 09:31
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, is around somewhere	Jan 15 09:31
roguedaemon	present	Jan 15 09:32
*nirik will wait another min or two for others to show up.		Jan 15 09:33
*Southern_Gentlem motions that meeting are at 1630 during est and 1530 during edt periods		Jan 15 09:33
*rdieter lurks		Jan 15 09:34
nirik	we could look at ignoring dst, but if so, I would want to move times to a bit later...	Jan 15 09:34
*Southern_Gentlem removes motion		Jan 15 09:35
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roguedaemon	how about in the middle of the night some time?	Jan 15 09:35
nirik	possibly, but thats harder for people to schedule usually.	Jan 15 09:36
*thomasj present		Jan 15 09:36
Southern_Gentlem	we can move it around as long as the chaanel is available and or have the meeting in ops	Jan 15 09:36
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Meeting time		Jan 15 09:37
roguedaemon	well, as long as its been going well	Jan 15 09:37
nirik	true, but it's nice to have a regular time so people know when to show up if they have something to bring up	Jan 15 09:37
roguedaemon	my thursdays are free now, at least for the time being	Jan 15 09:37
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roguedaemon	so what was all the heat about the other day	Jan 15 09:38
nirik	how about we do 16:30utc all the time... so it would stay there when dst switches...	Jan 15 09:38
roguedaemon	how about the whole world switches to UTC	Jan 15 09:39
*nirik would be fine with that.		Jan 15 09:39
Southern_Gentlem	+1	Jan 15 09:40
roguedaemon	too many clocks!	Jan 15 09:40
*thomasj is fine with 16:30 UTC		Jan 15 09:40
roguedaemon	i was thinking more like 02:00 heh	Jan 15 09:40
nirik	or we could just keep it at 16:30 now, and discuss again what to do about dst later before it happens.	Jan 15 09:42
nirik	(ie, why decide today what you can put off until tomorrow)	Jan 15 09:42
roguedaemon	perfect	Jan 15 09:42
nirik	ok, shall we move on?	Jan 15 09:42
Southern_Gentlem	yep	Jan 15 09:43
roguedaemon	we have 4 so far?	Jan 15 09:43
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, http://fpaste.org/paste/1478	Jan 15 09:43
Southern_Gentlem	that is what the uproar was aobut mainly	Jan 15 09:43
roguedaemon	yeah i looked around at it most of the night on tuesday	Jan 15 09:44
roguedaemon	or tried to anyway	Jan 15 09:44
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vwbusguy	sorry I'm late	Jan 15 09:44
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - EOL releases, remixes, spins, oh my.		Jan 15 09:44
roguedaemon	i think i got the jist	Jan 15 09:44
roguedaemon	vwbusguy: slacker	Jan 15 09:44
Southern_Gentlem	basicly someone comes in with a eol release we high suggest they upgrade but if someone is willing to support them and it doesnt interfere with the rest of the channel we leave them alone	Jan 15 09:44
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nirik	I think this increases the chance that EOL people will be disruptive... so we need to watch out for that.	Jan 15 09:45
roguedaemon	but we could do that at any time before	Jan 15 09:45
vwbusguy	Southern_Gentlem, how about bugging them to upgrade incessantly? Is that an option? Because I was seeing a lot of that in chan	Jan 15 09:45
Southern_Gentlem	vwbusguy, isnt that highly suggest	Jan 15 09:45
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vwbusguy	yeah, I also feel like in 80% or more of cases, upgrading _is_ the best advice	Jan 15 09:46
roguedaemon	all i know is its hard enough remembering 2 releases at the pace it moves, a line has to be drawn and it needs to be fair	Jan 15 09:46
EvilBob	I am of the opinion that giving them any support other than help upgrading is in bad form, perhaps even endorsing their use of an EOL//insecure release	Jan 15 09:46
Southern_Gentlem	vwbusguy, 95%	Jan 15 09:46
roguedaemon	EOL is EOL, that always made it easy	Jan 15 09:46
Southern_Gentlem	EvilBob, i agree so if no one supports them then they have no other choice	Jan 15 09:46
EvilBob	roguedaemon: exacty	Jan 15 09:46
roguedaemon	but the remix thing is really what has me concerned	Jan 15 09:46
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, me as well	Jan 15 09:47
roguedaemon	but i guess redhat would shoot that down instantly, right?	Jan 15 09:47
EvilBob	Southern_Gentlem: if we don't want anyone supporting them then the "rule" should be easy and clear	Jan 15 09:47
roguedaemon	well, i guess not, with the disclaimer	Jan 15 09:47
roguedaemon	the disclaimer makes it up to us	Jan 15 09:47
zless	maybe suffix each EOL with a link to an unpatched exploit? :)	Jan 15 09:47
roguedaemon	sort of..	Jan 15 09:47
nirik	I don't think this changes too much, aside from making it more likely that people seeking EOL support will be disruptive...	Jan 15 09:48
Southern_Gentlem	i think we do what we have historicly done and not worry about it	Jan 15 09:48
*nirik shrugs.		Jan 15 09:48
roguedaemon	ive been known to help a person in a bad situation with an eol version	Jan 15 09:48
EvilBob	What has always been our number 1 rule in #fedora?	Jan 15 09:48
EvilBob	Do nothing Malicious.	Jan 15 09:49
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roguedaemon	but the EOL statement always has to be firm and come first	Jan 15 09:49
EvilBob	IMO helping someone run an EOL release is just that	Jan 15 09:49
vwbusguy	EvilBob, like Google's Mission statement	Jan 15 09:49
EvilBob	You are helping the user get hacked	Jan 15 09:49
nirik	EvilBob: yeah, except for helping them migrate to a supported release. I think thats legit.	Jan 15 09:49
EvilBob	you are then helping that hacker attack others	Jan 15 09:49
vwbusguy	still, I dont' think it's our place to make that decision for them	Jan 15 09:50
vwbusguy	it's their box	Jan 15 09:50
EvilBob	vwbusguy: it's OUR reputation	Jan 15 09:50
roguedaemon	nirik: right	Jan 15 09:50
vwbusguy	as long as it doesn't detract from supported versions getting help	Jan 15 09:50
EvilBob	vwbusguy: I disagree	Jan 15 09:51
Southern_Gentlem	which is what we have always have done	Jan 15 09:51
roguedaemon	helping someone fix an EOL version is a heavy load, and the EOL statement should be pounded into the persons head, and then assist them in a solution	Jan 15 09:51
EvilBob	vwbusguy: you are enabling bad behavior	Jan 15 09:51
roguedaemon	but the ones that just want to stick with the old one have to be let go	Jan 15 09:51
Southern_Gentlem	helping them to upgrade is fine	Jan 15 09:51
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EvilBob	help to upgrade is and has always been fine	Jan 15 09:52
thomasj	We always helped them to upgrade, if possible.	Jan 15 09:52
EvilBob	But helping them keep insecure running is ignorant	Jan 15 09:52
*nirik is agreeing with EvilBob. I think pretty much everyone here would...so the question is: what do we gain by allowing other people to use the forum to help on EOL releases?		Jan 15 09:52
roguedaemon	there was someone earlier with an fc3, fc4, f7, and el3	Jan 15 09:53
EvilBob	If you think that machine can/will not be compromised you need to pull your head out of the sand	Jan 15 09:53
roguedaemon	i was like dude...	Jan 15 09:53
nirik	there was a rhl7.3 guy the other day.	Jan 15 09:53
vwbusguy	there is another chan for that though	Jan 15 09:53
vwbusguy	#redhat	Jan 15 09:53
roguedaemon	and of course we need a canned speech as to why	Jan 15 09:53
EvilBob	Hey they are free to take it out of the channel	Jan 15 09:53
roguedaemon	because it does come up a lot	Jan 15 09:53
EvilBob	they have that FREEDOM	Jan 15 09:53
Southern_Gentlem	guys do what you feel is the best	Jan 15 09:54
roguedaemon	maybe we need to write up a why to keep up with fedora statement	Jan 15 09:54
EvilBob	we can not stop them from doing that	Jan 15 09:54
EvilBob	we can only control through peer pressure what happens in #fedora	Jan 15 09:54
roguedaemon	someone else brought up another point which is that many people dont know that fedora moves so fast and think of it as just another distro and lalala	Jan 15 09:54
nirik	EvilBob: or through kicking people out	Jan 15 09:55
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EvilBob	nirik: I do not have or want that responsibility	Jan 15 09:55
nirik	sure, and we should try and use it sparingly.	Jan 15 09:55
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EvilBob	Look at it this way	Jan 15 09:56
EvilBob	it was not broken, why should we break it?	Jan 15 09:56
nirik	in the past it has been used on EOL people who keep asking their question.	Jan 15 09:56
Southern_Gentlem	i think we do a good job of limiting the use of op powers	Jan 15 09:56
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thomasj	What channel will #fedora be, with almost no offtopic (supporting all and everything), when is it disruptive in the channel, what's the line? I see a bit chaos coming across the channel soon.	Jan 15 09:57
Southern_Gentlem	nirk at the point they were being distrupting the channel	Jan 15 09:57
EvilBob	the communities stance has been in stone so to speak since the dawn of time	Jan 15 09:57
EvilBob	EOL is EOL	Jan 15 09:57
vwbusguy	ok, assuming the EOL insecurities bad idea thing doesn't apply to remixes... which was the real question in this matter anyway	Jan 15 09:57
nirik	yeah, and I think it could be used again if they are distruptive, so what does this change? if anything?	Jan 15 09:57
roguedaemon	i think if someone has an answer or wants to help, it is their right, but it needs to be expressed that s is a dangerous situation that can only be solved by upgrade/reinstall	Jan 15 09:57
EvilBob	even when Legacy existed we did not help with EOL or Life Support Releases	Jan 15 09:57
EvilBob	EOL has nothing to so with a Remix as far as I can see	Jan 15 09:58
Southern_Gentlem	+1 roguedaemon	Jan 15 09:58
roguedaemon	anhyone who wants to help should, and they should also not argue with the recommendation to upgrade	Jan 15 09:58
vwbusguy	roguedaemon, +1	Jan 15 09:58
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roguedaemon	we've all seen it before	Jan 15 09:59
vwbusguy	kick is only used then if the person is disruptive to those getting help with current versions?	Jan 15 09:59
EvilBob	What is the new rule?	Jan 15 09:59
*nirik is wondering where we are here....		Jan 15 10:00
EvilBob	the old rule is "EOL Must upgrade"	Jan 15 10:00
Sonar_Guy	I dont see it as a new rule more a change in thinking.	Jan 15 10:00
roguedaemon	someone says "its fc2" someone says "upgrade" someone says "i cant" "too bad" blah balh	Jan 15 10:00
Southern_Gentlem	not our problem	Jan 15 10:00
roguedaemon	basically	Jan 15 10:00
Southern_Gentlem	contact godaddy	Jan 15 10:00
roguedaemon	lol usually	Jan 15 10:01
roguedaemon	or a pocket somewhere and just someone who needs to be clued in	Jan 15 10:01
EvilBob	what if the new rule is "EOL Should upgrade, if someone wants to help, take it to another channel"	Jan 15 10:01
*Southern_Gentlem motions we continue as we have been always doing		Jan 15 10:01
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opsec	i think everyone should have their little hands held.. and we should all be super dee duper polite and huggy kissy to all fedora users.. and every new user should get a free bunny rabbit with every install	Jan 15 10:02
vwbusguy	the only thing is, when is kick used?	Jan 15 10:02
roguedaemon	i have never turned away a real bleeding edge dev type environment scenario, though i may have been fooled once or twice	Jan 15 10:02
vwbusguy	that is the operational difference, if any	Jan 15 10:02
EvilBob	vwbusguy: when they refuse to go to another channel	Jan 15 10:02
Southern_Gentlem	vwbusguy, when you feel they are being disruptive	Jan 15 10:02
*roguedaemon pinches opsec's cheeks		Jan 15 10:02
opsec	tee hee	Jan 15 10:02
roguedaemon	so cute!	Jan 15 10:03
opsec	</pilsbury doughboy>	Jan 15 10:03
roguedaemon	bunny week is coming btw	Jan 15 10:03
nirik	EvilBob: I think we should just stick with the old rule... it's unclear to me what we are changing really.	Jan 15 10:03
Southern_Gentlem	+1	Jan 15 10:03
EvilBob	nirik: +1	Jan 15 10:03
vwbusguy	ok, someone comes in running fc3 has random issue, someone immediately says to upgrade and they say 'well I just need to set up a static IP and don't want to upgrade' If someone wants to help them in chan?	Jan 15 10:03
opsec	nirik: mostly we're changing diaper.	Jan 15 10:03
opsec	+s	Jan 15 10:03
roguedaemon	http://www.nationalrabbitweek.co.uk/	Jan 15 10:04
EvilBob	vwbusguy: then they leave	Jan 15 10:04
opsec	roguedaemon: damn romans!	Jan 15 10:04
EvilBob	vwbusguy: just as it has always been	Jan 15 10:04
vwbusguy	this is community support	Jan 15 10:04
nirik	vwbusguy: if someone wants to tell them how to do that they can... if it's disrupting real help others are getting, we ask them to go somewhere else.	Jan 15 10:04
roguedaemon	zcat found that one	Jan 15 10:04
vwbusguy	why should we govern that if it's not interferring with someone else getting help	Jan 15 10:04
EvilBob	vwbusguy: they are free to create and work on it in another channel	Jan 15 10:04
vwbusguy	and if it's not cumbersome to those getting help?	Jan 15 10:04
roguedaemon	started with me quoting fifi from mad max "what is this, bunny week?!"	Jan 15 10:05
Southern_Gentlem	vwbusguy, its up to each and every op in the channel at that point isnt it	Jan 15 10:05
nirik	vwbusguy: if someone wants to provide community support for EOL releases, they can start #fedora-legacy-support ?	Jan 15 10:05
Southern_Gentlem	or #fedora-eol	Jan 15 10:05
EvilBob	Will a community member get kicked if they are disruptive to the EOL user getting help?	Jan 15 10:05
roguedaemon	ok, lets forget the EOL think, what about the spin offs	Jan 15 10:05
nirik	so what about remixes/spins/whatever?	Jan 15 10:05
roguedaemon	or remixes	Jan 15 10:06
vwbusguy	why don't we just create #Fedora-eol?	Jan 15 10:06
roguedaemon	yeah	Jan 15 10:06
vwbusguy	then the issue will be over?	Jan 15 10:06
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, in the case of Omega it is fedora +rpmfusion	Jan 15 10:06
nirik	vwbusguy: feel free.	Jan 15 10:06
nirik	the issue won't be over I suspect.	Jan 15 10:06
roguedaemon	no way can we support a "respin" that has rpmfusion built in	Jan 15 10:06
ivazquez	Then we'll have somewhere to send people other than "the hell out of here".	Jan 15 10:06
vwbusguy	can we create #Fedora-eol and give all Fedora ops access and anyone who wants to can help there	Jan 15 10:06
EvilBob	vwbusguy: IMO it is still in bad form to create a forum for the support of these insecure systems	Jan 15 10:06
roguedaemon	i mean, redhat does have some interest here	Jan 15 10:07
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, and we are telling them to install rpmfusion daily so what is the difference	Jan 15 10:07
nirik	vwbusguy: it won't work.	Jan 15 10:07
roguedaemon	we can pretend all we want, but piling on all that is too much	Jan 15 10:07
vwbusguy	EvilBob, then you must not like #redhat	Jan 15 10:07
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, then how can we support fedora with rpmfusion bits	Jan 15 10:07
opsec	roguedaemon: i agree.	Jan 15 10:07
EvilBob	vwbusguy: never been there, have no reason to	Jan 15 10:07
roguedaemon	but then again, people can help them if they want? but would they be taking advantage of the existing environment	Jan 15 10:07
vwbusguy	nirik, why won't it work	Jan 15 10:07
nirik	vwbusguy: I personally have no desire to support EOL releases. Until you have a pool of people helping there, we will just get in #fedora: "I have a fc1 machine" "go to #fedora-eol" "No one there answered my question"	Jan 15 10:08
opsec	support for the current + last version is plenty.	Jan 15 10:08
roguedaemon	Southern_Gentlem: that one is the same, or at least is for now, thats the rub	Jan 15 10:08
roguedaemon	the same thing we are telling people to do	Jan 15 10:08
EvilBob	nirik: then the response is "Well then i guess you have to upgrade"	Jan 15 10:08
nirik	I could be wrong, you might have people interested in helping there... feel free to try it. ;)	Jan 15 10:08
vwbusguy	nirik, how will we get a pool of people without creating the chan first	Jan 15 10:08
opsec	there should be a CLEAR support outline on fedoraproject.org and it should be adhered to.	Jan 15 10:08
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, so we will support omega because it is fedora= rpmfusion	Jan 15 10:08
Southern_Gentlem	now linpus is a totally different matter	Jan 15 10:09
vwbusguy	nirik, could we get Chanserv in there and all any Fedora ops that want to help in there?	Jan 15 10:09
nirik	vwbusguy: we could, but how many would?	Jan 15 10:09
Southern_Gentlem	nope	Jan 15 10:09
roguedaemon	Southern_Gentlem: but what does it turn into?	Jan 15 10:09
EvilBob	vwbusguy: you are free to create any channel you want	Jan 15 10:09
Southern_Gentlem	vwbusguy, i disagree	Jan 15 10:09
roguedaemon	down the road?	Jan 15 10:09
*nirik asks for a raising of hands of who would help in #fedora-eol ?		Jan 15 10:09
*vwbusguy raises hand		Jan 15 10:09
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, we will have to cross that bridge when we get to it	Jan 15 10:09
*thomasj no thanks		Jan 15 10:09
*Sonar_Guy sits on his hands		Jan 15 10:10
EvilBob	vwbusguy: then create your channel	Jan 15 10:10
*nirik puts his hands in his lap.		Jan 15 10:10
roguedaemon	Southern_Gentlem: yeah and we are watching	Jan 15 10:10
Southern_Gentlem	-100	Jan 15 10:10
*roguedaemon squints		Jan 15 10:10
vwbusguy	fair enough	Jan 15 10:10
opsec	eol support is a waste of energy	Jan 15 10:11
nirik	vwbusguy: perhaps posting to fedora list or forums might gather enough people? I just don't think there is enough people who would want to help there...	Jan 15 10:11
roguedaemon	like i said, it moves so fast these days keeping track of the differences between 2 versions is enough	Jan 15 10:11
zless	imagine a XY graph. -1 X axis is a bastardized FC1 remix godaddy thing; +1 is F10, -1 Y is a release-specific question; +1 Y is a generic rh/fedora/linux *nix question. i say we answer everything from -1,0 to 1,1  :)	Jan 15 10:11
Southern_Gentlem	vwbusguy, alot of us have been that road before	Jan 15 10:11
EvilBob	vwbusguy: create your channel, I will point people to it after working them over thoroughly with a CLUEx4	Jan 15 10:11
zless	that would probably make more sense as an image	Jan 15 10:11
opsec	roguedaemon: again, a voice of reason.	Jan 15 10:11
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opsec	simplicity is key in support..	Jan 15 10:12
nirik	so, on remix/spins, I think we should support where we can or know about the release... and point to other resources if we don't. Just like always.	Jan 15 10:12
Southern_Gentlem	opsec we support the current fedora release so for 1 month we are supporting 3	Jan 15 10:12
Sonar_Guy	roguedaemon: I agree fully	Jan 15 10:12
zless	yep...	Jan 15 10:12
roguedaemon	and thats what fedora is	Jan 15 10:12
vwbusguy	EvilBob, my point is if the channel existed we could point eol people out of Fedora and if they can't get help there they probably weren't going to get it anyway. It is community support after all	Jan 15 10:12
vwbusguy	but at least that way we wouldn't have to have this discussion again	Jan 15 10:12
Falstius	if someone asks an EOL or remix question, tell them roughly how to fix it in current Fedora, warn them it might not work, and strongly suggest upgrading.	Jan 15 10:12
roguedaemon	but we cant kick the customer out, so we need a canned speech	Jan 15 10:13
opsec	Southern_Gentlem: i'm aware of that .. a month of overlap is acceptable..	Jan 15 10:13
EvilBob	nirik: I think this is an easy one, if we know what it is and can help, we do, if we can't we sit on our hands and help them find resources	Jan 15 10:13
roguedaemon	i guess we already have one	Jan 15 10:13
*nirik nods.		Jan 15 10:13
vwbusguy	how would upgrading a remix be helpful?	Jan 15 10:13
opsec	there needs to be a CRYSTAL CLEAR support outline on fp.org	Jan 15 10:13
nirik	Omega 10 should be pretty close to what we know. Linpus is scary different from anything I know.	Jan 15 10:13
nirik	but unless we say "nothing that isn't fedora" we should just use common sense and go on a case by case basis.	Jan 15 10:14
vwbusguy	say a Linpus user comes in and says 'How can I dual boot my machine' ?	Jan 15 10:14
Southern_Gentlem	omega is based on fc6 with a f8 custom kernel	Jan 15 10:14
EvilBob	vwbusguy: and I refuse to support someone wanting to run a system that is insecure, that will be used to send several million pieces of spam at the Fedora Unity mail servers and the servers at tummy.com	Jan 15 10:14
nirik	Southern_Gentlem: you mean linpus?	Jan 15 10:14
vwbusguy	EvilBob, but re-mixes are different	Jan 15 10:14
Southern_Gentlem	opps yes linpus	Jan 15 10:14
zless	linpus is f8 with their custom updater, kernel, and other packages	Jan 15 10:15
vwbusguy	ok, fair enough	Jan 15 10:15
opsec	anything that isn't an official fedora release should be ignored as a prospective support target.	Jan 15 10:15
vwbusguy	then we're back to Omega	Jan 15 10:15
roguedaemon	i think most of us can give advice to those people with remixes, unless its clearly non-standard	Jan 15 10:15
roguedaemon	EOL is EOL	Jan 15 10:15
EvilBob	vwbusguy: sorry toke me a minute to get that out, was a response to "It is community support after all"	Jan 15 10:15
opsec	non-fedora is non-fedora.	Jan 15 10:15
roguedaemon	opsec: i agree, but i sense a grey area there	Jan 15 10:16
opsec	there's ##linux for bastard distro questions	Jan 15 10:16
nirik	opsec: I disagree... Orange Sombrero or Omega are so close that it doesn't matter.	Jan 15 10:16
vwbusguy	all the bits of Omega are the same as most of our Fedora end users anyway	Jan 15 10:16
opsec	nirik: non-fedora clouds real fedora issues and development in my opinion	Jan 15 10:16
vwbusguy	AND considering you can enable RPMFusion in anaconda and get the same bits on install in Fedora	Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon	vwbusguy: yeah and we can answer their questions most likely	Jan 15 10:17
Southern_Gentlem	we will have to look at each remix as it comes along	Jan 15 10:17
EvilBob	as long as you know what it is, it is current, and can help so be it	Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon	but how far does it go	Jan 15 10:17
vwbusguy	roguedaemon, until we talk about it again, haha	Jan 15 10:17
opsec	it's like rich people having 10 forks and 15 spoons on the table .. what's the real benefit to fedora?	Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon	we've all seen distros change, faster every day	Jan 15 10:17
nirik	opsec: we encourage people to remix and spin fedora in new ways and still get support.	Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon	once it becomes truly non-fedora they need to be cut off, but who is to know	Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon	i'm not watching all those others	Jan 15 10:18
vwbusguy	roguedaemon, helpers discretion	Jan 15 10:18
Sonar_Guy	roguedaemon: that is my issue with remixes	Jan 15 10:18
opsec	nirik: perhaps #fedora-spins for those people?	Jan 15 10:18
roguedaemon	Sonar_Guy: mine too	Jan 15 10:18
opsec	each of us have only so much time for our lives .. who wants to support 900 offshoots?	Jan 15 10:18
vwbusguy	no one is obligated to support a re-spin	Jan 15 10:18
nirik	opsec: that will just divide up resources... until they reach a point where there are enough seperate people wanting support on them, and willing to help support them.	Jan 15 10:18
roguedaemon	and nirik has a valid point too	Jan 15 10:19
vwbusguy	but if someone wants to help they can	Jan 15 10:19
vwbusguy	IMO	Jan 15 10:19
Sonar_Guy	per the trademark guidelines you can have some fedora packages and still be called a remix	Jan 15 10:19
EvilBob	when a 'normal fix' does not work on a remix.... then we will know it has gone to far	Jan 15 10:19
roguedaemon	how far do we want to go beyond the 2 versions	Jan 15 10:19
vwbusguy	as long as people who are running current Fedora can get support	Jan 15 10:19
nirik	vwbusguy: agreed.	Jan 15 10:19
opsec	once you decide as a user you need to step outside of an official release, it should be automatically assumed you will have far less outside support avenues	Jan 15 10:19
roguedaemon	loosen up the OT on oddballs and speak up when its too far	Jan 15 10:20
vwbusguy	opsec, that is th eopposite fo what Fedora was trying to achieve with 're-mixes'	Jan 15 10:20
roguedaemon	or just watch it quietly	Jan 15 10:20
opsec	vwbusguy: so i should try and keep track of what every person who wants a slightly different fedora spin is doing?	Jan 15 10:20
Sonar_Guy	roguedaemon: but that is where we run into issues	Jan 15 10:20
vwbusguy	not if you don't want to	Jan 15 10:21
roguedaemon	but we all know theres going to be a ton of fedora spin-offs eventually	Jan 15 10:21
nirik	opsec: no, you personally can just decide not to.	Jan 15 10:21
roguedaemon	Sonar_Guy: yep	Jan 15 10:21
Sonar_Guy	roguedaemon: I may watch quietly but another op may consider it off topic	Jan 15 10:21
vwbusguy	opsec, if you only want to support a blessed version then that's up to you	Jan 15 10:21
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opsec	it's in fedoras/the communities best interest to support only fedora mainstream	Jan 15 10:21
roguedaemon	if i cant find it in my fedora i'll say hey thats an oddball	Jan 15 10:21
opsec	it will advance faster	Jan 15 10:21
vwbusguy	are we settled on this?	Jan 15 10:22
EvilBob	can we create a wiki page for these mixes?	Jan 15 10:22
roguedaemon	dont they have their own pages?	Jan 15 10:22
vwbusguy	EvilBob, if one doesn't exist it should	Jan 15 10:22
EvilBob	"hey this is different" as we find them	Jan 15 10:22
roguedaemon	maybe link to them as a community	Jan 15 10:23
EvilBob	so if someone has GibbonGutz 10 we can look and see	Jan 15 10:23
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roguedaemon	just to show what else is happening	Jan 15 10:23
nirik	EvilBob: +1, we should make a page with the list...	Jan 15 10:23
roguedaemon	but we should keep our stuff to the 2 releases	Jan 15 10:23
EvilBob	if GibbonGutz is FEdora with different artwork...	Jan 15 10:24
roguedaemon	and keep it clear	Jan 15 10:24
EvilBob	that is easy to support	Jan 15 10:24
Sonar_Guy	nirik: then the fab needs to dictate that in the trademark guidelines, as part of using the secondary mark	Jan 15 10:24
nirik	EvilBob: and some links to point people to for FooBarBaz which is very different.	Jan 15 10:24
nirik	Sonar_Guy: ?	Jan 15 10:25
EvilBob	yup up	Jan 15 10:25
roguedaemon	the board	Jan 15 10:25
Sonar_Guy	currently there is no guideline for using the remix	Jan 15 10:25
Sonar_Guy	mark,	Jan 15 10:25
opsec	a wiki page with a list of respins, and their detailed list of changes/modifications from official fedora would be a good idea	Jan 15 10:25
*Southern_Gentlem wonders is we have beaten this horse to death yet		Jan 15 10:25
roguedaemon	Southern_Gentlem: just about :)	Jan 15 10:25
opsec	in some circles, horse meat is a prized possession	Jan 15 10:26
roguedaemon	is anyone unhappy that has something to say?	Jan 15 10:26
Sonar_Guy	so how do we know when somebody does? Where do we get the information to put on the wiki page?	Jan 15 10:26
Southern_Gentlem	but it doesnt get us anything in here	Jan 15 10:26
vwbusguy	well, I'm going to try to star a #Fedora-eol, not sure how we'd advertise it. Maybe helpful to put in the title	Jan 15 10:26
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roguedaemon	vwbusguy: wow thats a tall order	Jan 15 10:27
vwbusguy	but for re-mixes I think I'm happy with where we	Jan 15 10:27
vwbusguy	re at	Jan 15 10:27
vwbusguy	roguedaemon, topic	Jan 15 10:27
vwbusguy	roguedaemon, sorry, lol	Jan 15 10:27
*vwbusguy needs more caffeine, bad		Jan 15 10:27
nirik	vwbusguy: good luck! :)	Jan 15 10:27
roguedaemon	we do hit EOL people a little hard sometimes, thats the only problem i see	Jan 15 10:27
roguedaemon	but they have to be told	Jan 15 10:28
EvilBob	roguedaemon: we hit hard when they don't listen	Jan 15 10:28
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*Southern_Gentlem lets move on		Jan 15 10:28
roguedaemon	yes of course	Jan 15 10:28
EvilBob	roguedaemon: we hit hard when they ignore what they are told and ask the question 15 times in a half hour	Jan 15 10:28
roguedaemon	EvilBob: sometimes too hard too fast, but it is irc	Jan 15 10:28
roguedaemon	thats probably just normal dynamic	Jan 15 10:29
Southern_Gentlem	bot next?	Jan 15 10:29
EvilBob	I look forward to vwbusguy's 3 month report	Jan 15 10:29
roguedaemon	yeah wheres my tutorial page	Jan 15 10:29
<--Sonar_Guy (n=Baconz@fedora/sonarguy) has left #fedora-meeting ("No longer intrested in this Place")		Jan 15 10:29
roguedaemon	i registered but i have no clue how to use it	Jan 15 10:29
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - bot		Jan 15 10:29
nirik	ok, I need to write up a cheat sheet...	Jan 15 10:30
Southern_Gentlem	roguedaemon, we can help you there	Jan 15 10:30
opsec	roguedaemon: there needs to be a crystal clear official page about EOL and what is/is not supported.. that should end any nonsense.	Jan 15 10:30
vwbusguy	EvilBob, me2 :-)	Jan 15 10:30
nirik	so currently we have fedbot. It's running here on my machine. It's doing flood control in channel without any intervention.	Jan 15 10:30
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Southern_Gentlem	nirik this morning i was tring to advertise our meeting in fedora	Jan 15 10:30
Southern_Gentlem	<Southern_Gentlem> say #fedora ***IRC Support Meeting in #fedora-meeting in 20 Minutes***	Jan 15 10:30
Southern_Gentlem	<fedbot> Error: That channel has set its capabilities so as to disallow the use of this plugin.	Jan 15 10:30
roguedaemon	opsec: yeah the canned statement	Jan 15 10:30
nirik	It should pretty much ignore anything anyone sends it in channel	Jan 15 10:30
nirik	Southern_Gentlem: yeah, I took away that capability... need to add it to ops...	Jan 15 10:31
opsec	roguedaemon: it needs to be clear, non-offensive, and straight to the point as possible	Jan 15 10:31
roguedaemon	opsec: bot	Jan 15 10:31
nirik	it can also do kban and chanban's that have a timeout. So you can kick someone for 1 day and it will automagically remove it 1 day later.	Jan 15 10:31
nirik	you need to /msg fedbot register on it, then see me and I can enable capabilities for you.	Jan 15 10:32
roguedaemon	is the bot faster than my lightning fast kickban?	Jan 15 10:32
Southern_Gentlem	yep and its doing it so your name isnt seen	Jan 15 10:32
roguedaemon	i think i got it under 3 seconds op/kick/deop	Jan 15 10:32
nirik	roguedaemon: might be a bit faster... the nice thing is that it removes at timeout without you having to remember.	Jan 15 10:33
nirik	roguedaemon: should be /msg fedbot kban1d foobar	Jan 15 10:33
Southern_Gentlem	NAME kban1d	Jan 15 10:34
Southern_Gentlem	CMD msg fedbot kban #fedora %2 86400 %3	Jan 15 10:34
nirik	down the road I would like to look at using one of the KB plugins...	Jan 15 10:34
roguedaemon	i was just gonna say you must have a cmd	Jan 15 10:34
nirik	so we could use it to point people to resources, etc.	Jan 15 10:34
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nirik	there is also a kban1d alias...	Jan 15 10:34
roguedaemon	Southern_Gentlem: whats %3	Jan 15 10:34
roguedaemon	oh the message	Jan 15 10:34
Southern_Gentlem	reason	Jan 15 10:34
roguedaemon	man how long does that take	Jan 15 10:35
Southern_Gentlem	as fast as you can type	Jan 15 10:35
<--iarlyy (n=iarlyy@mail.libertynet.com.br) has left #fedora-meeting ("Leaving")		Jan 15 10:35
roguedaemon	my < 3 seconds is with userlist buttons :)	Jan 15 10:35
zless	roguedaemon, fedbot will stay opped, so no waiting around for the chanserv op toggle anymore	Jan 15 10:36
roguedaemon	i guess i can adapt	Jan 15 10:36
vwbusguy	whose the GC for #Fedora ?	Jan 15 10:36
Southern_Gentlem	/kban1w roguedaemon because	Jan 15 10:36
vwbusguy	nirik, that you?	Jan 15 10:36
nirik	anyhow, any further questions on the bot? Happy to accept patches or ideas.	Jan 15 10:36
nirik	vwbusguy: GC?	Jan 15 10:36
EvilBob	GC?	Jan 15 10:36
Southern_Gentlem	spot	Jan 15 10:36
vwbusguy	group contact	Jan 15 10:36
Southern_Gentlem	spot	Jan 15 10:36
EvilBob	spot owns all #fedora*	Jan 15 10:36
nirik	vwbusguy: yeah, spot is for #fedora*	Jan 15 10:36
*spot nods		Jan 15 10:36
roguedaemon	ok, i'll warm up to it, fear not	Jan 15 10:36
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vwbusguy	spot, do I have your blessing?	Jan 15 10:36
Southern_Gentlem	vwbusguy, tell him what you are doing	Jan 15 10:37
vwbusguy	spot, do you care if I maintain #Fedora-eol ?	Jan 15 10:37
EvilBob	some would say "Spot is FEEDDDOOOORRRRRAAAAAA!"	Jan 15 10:37
vwbusguy	spot, for Fedora EOL community support	Jan 15 10:37
spot	vwbusguy: nope. have fun. :)	Jan 15 10:37
roguedaemon	what is spot blessing now?	Jan 15 10:38
Southern_Gentlem	a stain on the rug	Jan 15 10:38
roguedaemon	oh heh	Jan 15 10:38
EvilBob	spot: forgive him, he is too young to remember Legacy	Jan 15 10:38
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Southern_Gentlem	spot, i am willing to be on the ops list if needed	Jan 15 10:39
roguedaemon	not like he couldnt imagine the burden	Jan 15 10:39
spot	EvilBob: for some people, the only way they learn that fire burns is to stick their hand in it. ;)	Jan 15 10:39
EvilBob	lol	Jan 15 10:39
Southern_Gentlem	spot we agree	Jan 15 10:39
roguedaemon	vwbusguy: think about it for a while	Jan 15 10:39
*nirik nods.		Jan 15 10:39
nirik	ok, any more questions on bot?	Jan 15 10:39
vwbusguy	channel is now registered, chanserv is set up	Jan 15 10:39
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Open floor		Jan 15 10:40
nirik	any further items to bring up?	Jan 15 10:40
*roguedaemon falls on open floor		Jan 15 10:40
vwbusguy	Can we add #Fedora-eol to /topc in #Fedora	Jan 15 10:40
roguedaemon	sorry ive been so absent, i'm having a hard time keeping up	Jan 15 10:40
EvilBob	I disagree	Jan 15 10:40
Southern_Gentlem	i agree	Jan 15 10:41
EvilBob	same argument as supporting it in the channel	Jan 15 10:41
nirik	vwbusguy: do you want to try and get further people there first?	Jan 15 10:41
roguedaemon	vwbusguy: just redirect people there in convo	Jan 15 10:41
EvilBob	endorsing the use of EOL releases is bad juju	Jan 15 10:41
roguedaemon	after giving them the third degree about EOL	Jan 15 10:42
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roguedaemon	topic is a bad idea	Jan 15 10:42
vwbusguy	nirik, ok, we can do that	Jan 15 10:42
Southern_Gentlem	that way we can put f9-f10 | EOL:#fedora-eol	Jan 15 10:42
EvilBob	I like roguedaemon's idea	Jan 15 10:42
*nirik also does.		Jan 15 10:42
Southern_Gentlem	ok	Jan 15 10:42
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vwbusguy	Southern_Gentlem, yeah, maybe it will deflect some from the beginning	Jan 15 10:43
EvilBob	work with the user to upgrade, if they don't get it, send them over	Jan 15 10:43
roguedaemon	less encouragement	Jan 15 10:43
thomasj	to the hit-and-run-channel	Jan 15 10:43
roguedaemon	dire straits	Jan 15 10:43
EvilBob	deflecting fromt he beginning will allow them to miss the message of "Hey you really need to upgrade"	Jan 15 10:44
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zless	vwbusguy, hand out EOL exploit links like candy. kthx.	Jan 15 10:44
roguedaemon	its all going to happen in channel anyway	Jan 15 10:45
EvilBob	zless: a "this is how you compromise F7" class might make the whole EOL thing more fun.	Jan 15 10:45
roguedaemon	mostly	Jan 15 10:45
*Southern_Gentlem mentions that version of Fedora is EOL and instructs EvilBob to read /topic and directs EvilBob to Communicate/IRC/Fedora-EOL-Support		Jan 15 10:45
vwbusguy	zless, you're welcome to join the chan and do it yourself, lol	Jan 15 10:45
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*nirik will close the meeting in 60 unless someone has something more to discuss.		Jan 15 10:45
vwbusguy	EvilBob, look at the /topic in #Fedora-eol. I encourage upgrading	Jan 15 10:46
roguedaemon	Southern_Gentlem: yes we need a good fedbot canned speech	Jan 15 10:46
EvilBob	vwbusguy: I am sure you will, I do not doubt that	Jan 15 10:46
*zless would just like to wish everyone a happy bunny week (?). bye.		Jan 15 10:46
EvilBob	vwbusguy: it is others that concern me	Jan 15 10:46
roguedaemon	zless: fuzzy	Jan 15 10:46
EvilBob	vwbusguy: you are mostly sane	Jan 15 10:46
vwbusguy	haha, u wish	Jan 15 10:46
roguedaemon	a happy fuzzy bunny week	Jan 15 10:46
roguedaemon	i'm pretty sure fifi in mad max meant "what is this, bunny week?" as an insult	Jan 15 10:47
nirik	ok, thanks everyone for coming. Have fun out there.	Jan 15 10:47

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