Meeting:IRC Support SIG 2009-01-29

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---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG meeting - Init process Jan 29 09:30
nirik who all is here for the IRC Support sig meeting? Jan 29 09:30
EvilBob I am Jan 29 09:30
-->f_newton ( has joined #fedora-meeting Jan 29 09:31
*thomasj is present Jan 29 09:31
_daemon_ i came in to watch Jan 29 09:31
f_newton I just came to listen myself Jan 29 09:31
nirik I probibly came to type. ;) Jan 29 09:31
*Mostafadaneshvar is here Jan 29 09:31
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*mmcgrath is here Jan 29 09:32
mmcgrath and ready to TEACH Jan 29 09:32
EvilBob mmcgrath: are you ever anywhere else? Jan 29 09:32
nirik mmcgrath: excellent. :) You want to go first, or would you like us to run thru other topics first? Jan 29 09:32
LinuxCode hehe Jan 29 09:32
mmcgrath EvilBob: I went to the restroom a few days back. Jan 29 09:32
LinuxCode thats a big revelation mmcgrath ! Jan 29 09:32
LinuxCode  ;-D Jan 29 09:32
mmcgrath nirik: sure, I'll go Jan 29 09:32
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG meeting - How smolt can help us with support - mmcgrath Jan 29 09:33
nirik take it away mmcgrath... ;) Jan 29 09:33
mmcgrath So nirik and I were talking and thought it'd be a good idea for both smolt and for #fedora to get to using smolt a bit more. Jan 29 09:33
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mmcgrath So the primary way to use smolt right now is via the command line interface. Jan 29 09:33
mmcgrath You can run "smoltSendProfile" to send your profile to us and it does the scans and stuff (I'll define scans in a minute) Jan 29 09:34
mmcgrath When you run that your public_uuid gets shown, this uuid you can share with anyone you wish. Jan 29 09:34
EvilBob define stuff Jan 29 09:34
mmcgrath EvilBob: I will :) Jan 29 09:34
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mmcgrath But also when you run smoltSendProfile you get assigned an admin password so you can rate your hardware and rate the overall profile. Jan 29 09:35
ivazquez|laptop So is -n not required the first time? Jan 29 09:35
mmcgrath ivazquez|laptop: nope, it does it automatically. Jan 29 09:35
mmcgrath We put that in there for people who were sharing their profile via the public_uuid, but then decided it shouldnt' be public any more. Jan 29 09:35
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mmcgrath which has happened before when $VENDOR sent in profile of $PRERELEASE_HARDWARE and sent the public_uuid to a mailing list. Jan 29 09:36
mmcgrath Ok, so thats the basics of how to use smolt, now I'll take a bit about scans and "stuff" Jan 29 09:36
mmcgrath So there's two places data gets stored in smolt. Jan 29 09:36
mmcgrath 1) is the smolt database. Jan 29 09:36
mmcgrath the database includes the profiles, hardware list, and the ratings. Jan 29 09:36
mmcgrath 2) is the smolt wiki ( Jan 29 09:37
mmcgrath when you run smoltSendProfile to send your profile in, it automatically does a scan of the wiki and the database. Jan 29 09:37
mmcgrath or you can just run smoltSendProfile -S Jan 29 09:37
LinuxCode mmcgrath, can people see machine hostnames publicly after submission ? Jan 29 09:37
mmcgrath nope, that is not stored anywhere. Jan 29 09:37
mmcgrath So when I run smoltSendProfile -S on my localhost Jan 29 09:38
mmcgrath I get the following output: Jan 29 09:38
mmcgrath Jan 29 09:38
mmcgrath meaning that there are 202 profiles that match my vendor and model. Jan 29 09:38
mmcgrath Also you'll note it found some errata Jan 29 09:38
mmcgrath at Jan 29 09:39
mmcgrath The "scans and stuff" I was talking about earlier grabs a list of ratings (displayed in the output) it also polls the wiki Jan 29 09:39
mmcgrath the wiki goes /bus/vendorid/deviceid/subvendorid/subdeviceid Jan 29 09:39
mmcgrath There are still devices that don't have those id's but they aren't presently in the wiki. Jan 29 09:39
mmcgrath So as you guys answer questions or find people with problems, feel free to fill the wiki pages out or ask them to. Jan 29 09:40
mmcgrath And thats basically how smolt works. Jan 29 09:40
mmcgrath The other part of smolt (at provides query tools to get info out of the database, and look at basic stats. Jan 29 09:40
*nirik notes that this might have helped with the recent 'no sound on hda-intel' that some people had. Jan 29 09:41
LinuxCode nirik, how so ? Jan 29 09:41
LinuxCode find out specific models ? Jan 29 09:41
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nirik well, we could have collected info on what specific laptops were affected. Jan 29 09:42
LinuxCode yeh, that makes sense Jan 29 09:42
mmcgrath So anyone have any questions? Jan 29 09:42
nirik mmcgrath: is there a way someone can look up a specific device via bus/vendor/etc ? a command line tool or something? Jan 29 09:42
LinuxCode wasnt there an intention to make "working" hardware available to end-users ? Jan 29 09:42
mmcgrath LinuxCode: you can find that sort of thing at: Jan 29 09:43
mmcgrath Jan 29 09:43
LinuxCode brilliant cheers Jan 29 09:43
LinuxCode now i see what the rratings are for Jan 29 09:43
mmcgrath Its not as easy to use as I'd like but the information is there at least. Jan 29 09:43
mmcgrath You can search there as well, and find other exact profiles like yours and share them with stuff like "well, this guy says its working but requires 3rd party drivers" Jan 29 09:44
f_newton there is still attempts to make present hardware work, right? Jan 29 09:44
mmcgrath which, hopefully, is in the wiki. Jan 29 09:44
mmcgrath f_newton: not by the smolt developers but people send their profiles in with bug reports. Jan 29 09:44
mmcgrath Also I've had dev's ask me "I'm looking for other hardware that also has X sound card built in" Jan 29 09:44
mmcgrath you can query that out of smolt. Jan 29 09:44
mmcgrath but thats more the back lines :) You guys are all on the front lines. Jan 29 09:45
LinuxCode mmcgrath, can you answer niriks question please Jan 29 09:45
mmcgrath nirik: if you have the device name you can search for it. Jan 29 09:45
mmcgrath for example Jan 29 09:45
f_newton im like that little "slow" kid wandering around the battlefield Jan 29 09:45
nirik mmcgrath: is there a smoltSendprofile option to just display the current url also? that would be handy to get that info from people. Jan 29 09:45
mmcgrath Jan 29 09:45
nirik cool. Jan 29 09:45
mmcgrath smoltSendProfile should display: To share your profile: (public) Jan 29 09:46
mmcgrath which is the url link to their device. Jan 29 09:46
mmcgrath err to their profiel Jan 29 09:46
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nirik but you have to submit again to get that info? Jan 29 09:46
nirik (or have saved it) Jan 29 09:47
Southern_Gentlem here Jan 29 09:47
mmcgrath nirik: yeah, because public_uuid isn't stored on the local machines (for various reasons) Jan 29 09:47
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mmcgrath oh, and if someone does it on accident, you can run "smoltDeleteProfile" at any time Jan 29 09:47
nirik ah, ok. Jan 29 09:47
mmcgrath but a user can run "smoltSendProfile -S" to just scan the database for errata and ratings, it doesn't send anything to the server to be saved. Jan 29 09:48
nirik is -b hooked up to anything yet? Jan 29 09:48
mmcgrath not yet. Jan 29 09:48
LinuxCode mmcgrath, have we got a wiki page for this yet ? Jan 29 09:48
mmcgrath there's going to be a -e <email@address> soon. Jan 29 09:49
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mmcgrath LinuxCode: Just the smolt wiki at Jan 29 09:49
LinuxCode k Jan 29 09:49
EvilBob -p to return only the public URL would be handy Jan 29 09:49
mmcgrath EvilBob: the thing about that is it'd have to contact the server which some people have had problems with. Jan 29 09:50
LinuxCode +1 Jan 29 09:50
nirik EvilBob: yeah, agreed, but it should note that it's checking in too... Jan 29 09:50
f_newton why would anyone have problems with creating an effective database of very useful hardware data? Jan 29 09:51
EvilBob mmcgrath: Problem is that running the command alone outputs to many lines for some/a lot of the users Jan 29 09:51
nirik mmcgrath: is the uuid public info? or something that should be private? Jan 29 09:51
mmcgrath f_newton: you'll have to ask them :) Jan 29 09:51
mmcgrath nirik: public_uuid is public, there's also a private uuid that should be kept private. Jan 29 09:51
nirik which is the UUID: in a smoltSendprofile output? Jan 29 09:51
mmcgrath yes Jan 29 09:52
nirik ie, if someone runs the tool, and pastebins it's output without submitting (yeah, not sure why they would do that, but it's something I can see people doing) is that showing private info? Jan 29 09:52
mmcgrath Eh, not really. We didn't even used to have public_uuid Jan 29 09:53
nirik ok. Jan 29 09:53
mmcgrath but for the ultra paranoid, they might have a problem Jan 29 09:53
EvilBob mmcgrath: anything that outputs more than 2 or 3 lines will melt the brains of a large percent of what we deal with I am afraid Jan 29 09:53
mmcgrath even private uuid is generated, its not tied to your hardware. Jan 29 09:53
nirik those people always have problems. ;) Jan 29 09:53
Southern_Gentlem is there a to get all the options out of sendSmoltProfile ? Jan 29 09:54
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mmcgrath smoltSendProfile -h Jan 29 09:54
mmcgrath anyone else have any questions Jan 29 09:55
nirik smolt does gather a fair bit of info we already ask people for one at a time... Jan 29 09:55
*mmcgrath won't take any more time out of your meeting :) Jan 29 09:56
nirik release, selinux enabled, lspci, etc. Jan 29 09:56
*nirik can't think of any more right now. Jan 29 09:56
nirik thanks for the info mmcgrath! Jan 29 09:56
thomasj +1 Jan 29 09:56
mmcgrath Sure! Jan 29 09:56
LinuxCode nirik, yeh, but its good to make people use commands such as lspci etc.. Jan 29 09:57
LinuxCode so they learn how to figure out whats going on Jan 29 09:57
nirik mmcgrath: if you could add a -p sometime that might be good for us... ie, 'Checking in with the server, is this ok (y/n)' and then 'your link is: ...' Jan 29 09:57
LinuxCode smolt is a great idea though Jan 29 09:57
mmcgrath nirik: <nod> sure thing Jan 29 09:57
nirik LinuxCode: I don't think it helps most people... lspci is just gibberish we ask for. Jan 29 09:58
Southern_Gentlem there is already a -p Jan 29 09:58
nirik oh yeah, I meant some option to just check in to get the uuid/profile link Jan 29 09:58
Southern_Gentlem -p, --printOnly print information only, do not send Jan 29 09:58
*nirik doesn't care what it's called. Jan 29 09:58
nirik any more smolt questions for mmcgrath ? Jan 29 09:59
Southern_Gentlem i think smolt is a great project and glad to see other distros besides fedora picking it up Jan 29 09:59
f_newton sounds like it will be very helpful Jan 29 10:00
*nirik nods. Jan 29 10:01
nirik thanks for your time mmcgrath. Jan 29 10:01
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG meeting - Obligitory classroom plug Jan 29 10:01
nirik classroom sessions coming up. Point anyone interested in giving a class my way. ;) Jan 29 10:02
nirik perhaps mmcgrath would like to give a smolt one? :) Jan 29 10:02
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG meeting - Open Floor Jan 29 10:03
nirik anyone have anything else to bring up? Jan 29 10:03
nirik how's things been running? where can we improve? Jan 29 10:03
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vwbusguy (sorry I'm late) Jan 29 10:03
LinuxCode vwbusguy, you missed all hehe Jan 29 10:03
LinuxCode more or less Jan 29 10:03
f_newton I think y'all have been doing a great job and y'all have even shown a lot more tolerance for us ignorant ones Jan 29 10:04
Southern_Gentlem i see the person who had the complaints didnt show up Jan 29 10:04
EvilBob _daemon_: you wanted to whine? Jan 29 10:04
nirik complaints make me sad. I wish we could air them and try and figure out how we can learn from them. Jan 29 10:04
thomasj you can't be perfect for anyone. Jan 29 10:04
thomasj everybody. Jan 29 10:05
LinuxCode nirik, i think we should make sure we are polite and nip rude people in the bud Jan 29 10:05
LinuxCode i.e. the swearers Jan 29 10:05
f_newton nirik people who have no idea about the jargon or the way linux works get very frustrated with the seemingly harsh tones sometimes Jan 29 10:05
nirik thomasj: agreed. Jan 29 10:05
Southern_Gentlem when we still get people coming from #ubuntu saying how good our channel is compared to #ubuntu i think we are ahead of the game Jan 29 10:05
LinuxCode f_newton, well, im sorry to say, some people are lazy and never read or do as you ask them Jan 29 10:05
nirik LinuxCode: well, I think we should call the people dropping the f-bombs... but we shouldn't keep bugging people for very light stuff... damm/hell, etc. That just seems nitpicky to me. Jan 29 10:06
f_newton in my case I simply miss the text lines it seems I wonder if others suffer from that Jan 29 10:06
nirik Southern_Gentlem: yeah, have we had that recently tho? Jan 29 10:06
LinuxCode no no...just vulgar words, ... Jan 29 10:06
LinuxCode damn and hell arent vulgar Jan 29 10:06
nirik LinuxCode: also, some people just forget or don't realize... a reminder is usually enough. Jan 29 10:06
Southern_Gentlem i drop the /polite so it doesnt escalate to the f bombs Jan 29 10:06
f_newton uh vulgarity starts with acceptance... where do you set the line? Jan 29 10:07
LinuxCode yeh, I say usually to please not use a word Jan 29 10:07
*Southern_Gentlem reminds #fedora-meeting Be polite and avoid profanity someone's kids and their grandmother might be in here listening Jan 29 10:07
*nirik nods. Jan 29 10:07
LinuxCode f_newton, the problem is...people escalate themselves into a state Jan 29 10:07
f_newton yeah dont I know it Jan 29 10:07
f_newton lol Jan 29 10:07
nirik f_newton: it's subjective, but we want the channel to be somewhere someone underage or older could come for help and not be off put. Jan 29 10:07
EvilBob Southern_Gentlem: honesty if you were not my friend and I said damn, you sent that message, my response would be "Fuck you" Jan 29 10:07
LinuxCode imho it makes the atmosphere more pleasant and team-like Jan 29 10:08
f_newton ahh ego rears its pimply head Jan 29 10:08
nirik right, it's subjective... Jan 29 10:08
Southern_Gentlem /kick EvilBob :) Jan 29 10:08
nirik anyhow, if anyone has any constructive ideas for improving things, feel free to bring them up. Jan 29 10:08
f_newton so far I think the channel has gotten a lot better then just a few months ago Jan 29 10:08
f_newton y'all are doing a great job Jan 29 10:09
f_newton expecially all volunteer Jan 29 10:09
EvilBob better in some ways, worse in others Jan 29 10:09
nirik f_newton: thanks. Positive feedback is also good. Jan 29 10:09
Southern_Gentlem f_newton, thanks but i think the last 2 weeks have been rough Jan 29 10:09
EvilBob but overall better I think Jan 29 10:09
f_newton well there are some bitter people but they have ...issues Jan 29 10:09
nirik can anyone think of clever ideas to get more helpers helping? Jan 29 10:09
Southern_Gentlem sorry i think someone has dumped more idiot drugs in some of the water supplies Jan 29 10:09
f_newton they're also smart and helpful Jan 29 10:09
LinuxCode nirik, I think expertise is an issue Jan 29 10:10
LinuxCode nirik, loads of people want to help Jan 29 10:10
f_newton the more you learn Southern_Gentlem the less you understand the ignorant... what you take as easy is above their heads Jan 29 10:10
EvilBob nirik: you mean other than sending users to -devel with the developer/maintainers nick? Jan 29 10:10
LinuxCode on EFnet i sused to say to people...please make notes and then you can help somebody else Jan 29 10:10
LinuxCode -s Jan 29 10:10
Southern_Gentlem f_newton, possibly Jan 29 10:11
nirik EvilBob: well, I meant: how can we attract more people who are willing to help in channel and know what they are doing? we seem to have about the same pool of people for the last month or so. Jan 29 10:11
f_newton except for folks like me LinuxCode who have trouble seeing lines running together and having a poor memory Jan 29 10:11
LinuxCode f_newton, everybody is different Jan 29 10:11
f_newton aaahh know what they are doing.... thats the rub Jan 29 10:11
Southern_Gentlem nirik, no actually the pool has grown in the last 6 weeks with _drj2 and LinuxCode Jan 29 10:11
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EvilBob nirik: start giving out bacon? Jan 29 10:12
f_newton lol no bacon Jan 29 10:12
f_newton its gotta be kosher fer me Jan 29 10:12
Southern_Gentlem ok pork chops Jan 29 10:12
LinuxCode lol Jan 29 10:12
f_newton egadds Jan 29 10:12
*LinuxCode shakes head Jan 29 10:12
nirik Southern_Gentlem: yeah, thats in the last 2 months... just wondering if there is anything we can do to get more folks? or if we just sit and hope for them to come along? ;) Jan 29 10:12
nirik f_newton: bacos? :) Jan 29 10:12
LinuxCode I think what we need is a process of standard debugging for each thing Jan 29 10:12
EvilBob f_newton: it's a metaphor Jan 29 10:12
f_newton lol my dog luvs em Jan 29 10:12
LinuxCode i.e. sound issues, do this and that and this Jan 29 10:12
LinuxCode that would make our lives easier Jan 29 10:13
Southern_Gentlem LinuxCode, the problem is different hardware Jan 29 10:13
Southern_Gentlem LinuxCode, go ahead and do that page on Jan 29 10:13
LinuxCode yah, but then people could pre-collect info Jan 29 10:13
f_newton isnt there a primer somewhere people can be referred to to put them at a level they can make use of the info y'all have? Jan 29 10:13
nirik LinuxCode: it's pretty difficult to cover all issues we see... you have to kinda know how to think logically and ask the right questions/know how things are setup. Jan 29 10:13
Southern_Gentlem uname -r, lspci, etc Jan 29 10:14
f_newton there are many versions of logical thinking Jan 29 10:14
LinuxCode nirik, agreed... but repeating stuff a 100 times gets unproductive Jan 29 10:14
LinuxCode technology should work for us ;-} Jan 29 10:14
f_newton absolutely Jan 29 10:14
LinuxCode Southern_Gentlem, yah Jan 29 10:14
Southern_Gentlem LinuxCode, at that point, put on a page Jan 29 10:14
LinuxCode Eat bacon ? Jan 29 10:15
LinuxCode  ;-p Jan 29 10:15
LinuxCode why dont we keep support stuff on the main wiki ? Jan 29 10:16
nirik yeah, if it's something at all common, make a troubleshooting page. Jan 29 10:16
LinuxCode I never understood that Jan 29 10:16
nirik LinuxCode: legal stuff... some things can't really be pointed to by fedora. Jan 29 10:16
LinuxCode nirik, but commonly I have sen people not switch on their mixer settings Jan 29 10:16
LinuxCode nirik, i see Jan 29 10:16
LinuxCode hence I was thinking... do this first Jan 29 10:16
LinuxCode with screenshots... Jan 29 10:17
nirik LinuxCode: sounds great. ;) Write it up. ;) Jan 29 10:17
f_newton if you had a header page with contents like sound problems video problems java problems etc doesnt fedorasolved do that? Jan 29 10:17
EvilBob LinuxCode: What support stuff do you want on the wiki exactly? Jan 29 10:17
LinuxCode i do it ..this weekend hopefully Jan 29 10:17
LinuxCode EvilBob, anything Jan 29 10:17
LinuxCode but if there are legal issues Jan 29 10:17
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EvilBob there are Jan 29 10:17
f_newton there should be no legal issues if I have read and understood the copyleft etc Jan 29 10:18
EvilBob in some cases it is a fine line Jan 29 10:18
LinuxCode yah as Kevin just said Jan 29 10:18
LinuxCode of course you cant endorse codec patent infringements haha Jan 29 10:18
LinuxCode  ;-p Jan 29 10:18
LinuxCode that would not be smart Jan 29 10:18
nirik Jan 29 10:18
f_newton dont include stuff like that ... just get the hardware working or tell em the truth Jan 29 10:18
LinuxCode f_newton, well...some smart lawyer could argue ..people writing on there are employees of fedora and hence redhat Jan 29 10:19
nirik ok, anything anyone else wants to bring up before we close up the meeting? Jan 29 10:19
EvilBob f_newton: Red Hat Legal says you can not publish anything that could be interpreted as "contributory" in someone's infringement of copyright or other intellectual property Jan 29 10:19
f_newton not if it was disclaimed clearly and support stops within bounds Jan 29 10:20
f_newton thats very true EvilBob Jan 29 10:20
EvilBob nirik: _daemon_ had something Jan 29 10:20
EvilBob _daemon_: speak up Jan 29 10:21
thomasj EvilBob, what was the issue with/for him? Jan 29 10:21
EvilBob thomasj: No idea Jan 29 10:21
thomasj oh ok Jan 29 10:21
EvilBob <_daemon_> EvilBob: i can complain about people? Jan 29 10:21
EvilBob <_daemon_> and it wont be considered a whine? Jan 29 10:21
EvilBob that is all I know Jan 29 10:21
f_newton lol Jan 29 10:21
f_newton maybe he stepped out for a bit Jan 29 10:22
EvilBob I guess we can wrap this up Jan 29 10:22
nirik ok, no worries... Jan 29 10:22
f_newton wow its almost above freezing! Jan 29 10:22
nirik _daemon_: feel free to speak up next meeting or talk to #fedora-ops if you have some issue. Jan 29 10:22
*nirik will close the meeting in 30seconds unless someone has a further item. Jan 29 10:23
LinuxCode nope Jan 29 10:23
LinuxCode all rosy Jan 29 10:23
nirik ok, thanks for coming everyone! Jan 29 10:23

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